Latest / The Mookse and the Gripes Podcast / Episode 105: Wrists Be Damned: or, How We Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Big Books

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Episode 105: Wrists Be Damned: or, How We Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Big Books · The Mookse and the Gripes Podcast

0:00
SPEAKER_00: We need to start this episode with a caution, listeners.
0:03
Side effects of big books include lost weekends,
0:08
emotional upheaval,
0:09
and bookshelf collapse.
0:12
SPEAKER_00: But we're going to join this celebration anyway.
0:15
SPEAKER_00: You've been warned.
0:29
SPEAKER_00: This is the Mooks and the Gripes podcast.
0:31
SPEAKER_00: Hello, everybody.
0:32
SPEAKER_00: This is Trevor.
0:33
And coming to talk about books or share some simple and
0:37
heartfelt lay that shall
0:39
SPEAKER_00: soothe this restless feeling and banish the thoughts of day.
0:43
SPEAKER_00: Paul, Paul, how are you doing today?
0:46
SPEAKER_03: I am off to a good start today.
0:47
SPEAKER_03: I think we have our first official disclaimer on an episode,
0:50
SPEAKER_03: so I think people might be a little wary this time.
0:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
0:53
SPEAKER_00: we've been getting a lot of complaints,
0:56
SPEAKER_00: you know,
0:57
SPEAKER_00: so we've got to start protecting ourselves.
1:00
SPEAKER_00: Right.
1:00
It's like the 90s when all the CDs have those,
1:02
you know,
1:03
profanity stickers on them.
1:04
SPEAKER_03: I think it's going to be something like that.
1:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, now I'm doing well.
1:08
SPEAKER_03: How are you doing?
1:09
SPEAKER_00: I'm doing excellent.
1:10
SPEAKER_00: And we are being joined today by Chris Villa from Leaf by Leaf.
1:15
SPEAKER_00: Chris, how are you doing?
1:17
SPEAKER_01: Hey, I'm great.
1:18
SPEAKER_01: I'm still sort of trying to tamp down my laughter from your disclaimer.
1:24
SPEAKER_00: That was great.
1:27
SPEAKER_00: I appreciate it.
1:29
SPEAKER_00: We're so excited to have you, Chris.
1:31
Just so you know,
1:33
I found out about Leaf by Leaf on one of our very first episodes.
1:37
Paul shared it with some listeners as he was kind of talking
1:40
about some bookish
1:41
SPEAKER_00: things people might be interested in.
1:44
SPEAKER_00: And I'm a big, big fan.
1:46
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to give you a moment to introduce it.
1:50
But before that,
1:51
I do want to share another quick story that maybe some people know.
1:54
SPEAKER_00: I know Paul knows this.
1:56
But way back in our very first episode,
1:59
Paul and I talked about our bucket list books.
2:01
SPEAKER_00: That's how we thought we would introduce the show and ourselves.
2:05
SPEAKER_00: You know, those big daunting titles that we hope to read someday.
2:08
SPEAKER_00: Right.
2:09
SPEAKER_00: And as a kind of a side topic,
2:11
I asked if there were any books that we had officially retired
2:15
or kicked off of our
2:16
SPEAKER_00: bucket list.
2:17
SPEAKER_00: And for me, it was war and peace.
2:21
I had tried reading it a handful of times and I just couldn't
2:24
get into it.
2:25
SPEAKER_00: And I didn't think that I would try it again ever.
2:28
SPEAKER_00: And I made peace with that.
2:29
SPEAKER_00: I was totally okay with that being the situation.
2:32
SPEAKER_00: But then...
2:33
SPEAKER_00: you released a fantastic long-form War and Peace video on Leaf by Leaf.
2:40
SPEAKER_00: And I thought, well, I'll just give this a go.
2:42
SPEAKER_00: I'll see how this episode of Leaf by Leaf goes.
2:47
SPEAKER_00: And,
2:47
SPEAKER_00: you know,
2:48
you started it with just so much encouragement as you were
2:51
looking at translations
2:53
and getting excited for your own project that I decided I'd
2:59
give it one more shot.
3:01
And my wife bought me the Anthony Briggs translation that you recommended.
3:04
SPEAKER_00: Excellent.
3:05
SPEAKER_00: I, I loved it.
3:06
I read a section of the novel and then I would go and listen to
3:10
your part on that.
3:10
SPEAKER_00: Cause I tell you,
3:11
SPEAKER_00: you know,
3:11
SPEAKER_00: for listeners who don't know,
3:12
SPEAKER_00: that's how you released this one was you'd say pages,
3:16
SPEAKER_00: you know,
3:16
SPEAKER_00: or sections one through,
3:17
SPEAKER_00: you know,
3:18
SPEAKER_00: five.
3:18
SPEAKER_00: And so I would read it and then I'd go back and listen to it.
3:21
SPEAKER_00: And it just became this lovely rhythm and really carried me through.
3:25
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, not only did I finish the book finally,
3:28
SPEAKER_00: But I enjoyed it a lot more than I thought that I would.
3:31
SPEAKER_00: So I think for listeners,
3:33
that's one thing Chris does so well through Leaf by Leaf brings
3:37
a thoughtful,
3:38
SPEAKER_00: slow attention to books that might feel overwhelming.
3:41
But it isn't just through analysis,
3:43
which you do so well,
3:44
but there's an encouragement.
3:46
SPEAKER_00: There is a joy in the product or in the project.
3:50
SPEAKER_00: And like I say, I'm just thrilled to have you here with us today.
3:52
SPEAKER_00: So welcome to the show.
3:54
SPEAKER_01: Oh, thanks so much.
3:55
SPEAKER_01: What a great story to hear.
3:58
SPEAKER_01: uh, to kick it off with.
3:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that, that was a lot of fun.
4:01
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's the first time with the exception of maybe 2666,
4:06
I think that's the first time that I approached a video like
4:09
that sort of,
4:10
SPEAKER_01: uh,
4:11
SPEAKER_01: busting it up into my,
4:13
SPEAKER_01: um,
4:15
SPEAKER_01: you know,
4:15
uh,
4:16
SPEAKER_01: jousts and rests of reading war and peace,
4:21
SPEAKER_01: uh,
4:22
and go into the kind of going back and forth between the
4:24
reading chair and the camera.
4:26
SPEAKER_01: Uh,
4:27
SPEAKER_01: to,
4:27
SPEAKER_01: cause I,
4:27
that was my vision for that one was I wanted something there
4:31
that people could use,
4:33
SPEAKER_01: uh,
4:34
SPEAKER_01: to actually make it through the book with some easy signposts,
4:39
SPEAKER_01: you know,
4:40
SPEAKER_01: some easy,
4:41
SPEAKER_01: uh,
4:41
SPEAKER_01: rest stops along the way.
4:44
Um,
4:45
because I think I just envisioned people seeing this completed video,
4:50
right.
4:51
SPEAKER_01: And even though it may be six hours,
4:53
SPEAKER_01: uh,
4:54
SPEAKER_01: it shows sort of in one thumbnail,
4:57
SPEAKER_01: if you will,
4:59
SPEAKER_01: someone who has read the book from end to end,
5:02
SPEAKER_01: and you can kind of use that as your tether,
5:05
SPEAKER_01: use the video as your tether,
5:07
SPEAKER_01: uh,
5:07
SPEAKER_01: to get through it.
5:08
SPEAKER_01: So that the way you approached it is exactly what I had in mind.
5:11
SPEAKER_01: So you're very,
5:11
SPEAKER_01: you're,
5:12
SPEAKER_01: this is a lot of validation for me to hear that,
5:15
SPEAKER_01: uh,
5:15
SPEAKER_01: as I wanted people yet to have fun with it.
5:17
SPEAKER_01: And, um,
5:20
SPEAKER_01: And stuff like that.
5:20
SPEAKER_01: So I'm just thrilled to hear that.
5:23
SPEAKER_00: Well,
5:23
SPEAKER_00: it's kind of cool because you had finished the book before I started it,
5:28
but I felt like you were part of my journey and that I was part
5:31
of yours to an
5:32
SPEAKER_00: extent because when I first started to watch it,
5:34
SPEAKER_00: you were starting it too.
5:36
And so there was this sense of a guide who's going on the
5:40
journey with you rather
5:41
SPEAKER_00: than someone sitting on the other end saying,
5:43
SPEAKER_00: that's great,
5:43
SPEAKER_00: you just got to make it through it or something like that.
5:45
SPEAKER_00: It was a lot of fun.
5:47
SPEAKER_00: It took me...
5:50
SPEAKER_00: months, but I wouldn't necessarily have had it any other way.
5:55
SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah.
5:56
SPEAKER_00: So thank you.
5:56
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
5:57
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
5:58
SPEAKER_00: And again, just excited to have you here today.
6:01
SPEAKER_00: We'll get to the topic here in a minute,
6:02
SPEAKER_00: but listeners,
6:03
SPEAKER_00: you probably could tell from the disclaimer.
6:05
I hope you take it seriously,
6:06
but we're going to be talking about big books.
6:08
Notice how we've already named dropped a couple,
6:11
you know,
6:11
one piece,
6:12
uh,
6:12
two,
6:12
six,
6:13
six,
6:13
six.
6:14
SPEAKER_00: We're,
6:14
SPEAKER_00: we're going to be,
6:15
SPEAKER_00: we're going to be,
6:16
SPEAKER_00: uh,
6:16
SPEAKER_00: making sure that people know,
6:17
SPEAKER_00: know that we're,
6:19
SPEAKER_00: we're,
6:19
SPEAKER_00: we're serious about this.
6:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
6:21
SPEAKER_03: I
6:26
SPEAKER_03: Challenge accepted.
6:27
SPEAKER_03: Yes, exactly.
6:28
SPEAKER_03: Well,
6:28
SPEAKER_03: and I'll just add to Chris,
6:30
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
6:31
SPEAKER_03: just echoing Trevor's praise,
6:32
SPEAKER_03: but I've just enjoyed so much about your videos,
6:35
including the fact I love seeing all your sticky notes and the
6:38
way you underline
6:39
SPEAKER_03: and you have some very,
6:40
SPEAKER_03: I can tell some very intricate systems.
6:42
And that is always fascinating to me to see somebody who is not
6:45
only reading these books,
6:46
SPEAKER_03: but so deeply engaged.
6:47
SPEAKER_03: It's just very inspiring.
6:48
We had an episode a while back about the idea of marking up
6:51
books or how do you
6:52
SPEAKER_03: keep track of all that.
6:53
SPEAKER_03: And it's an ongoing journey for me to figure out a good way to do it.
6:57
And I won't say that I've settled on any one way,
7:00
but I just love seeing that too.
7:02
SPEAKER_03: It's just when you have your big,
7:04
SPEAKER_03: you know,
7:04
SPEAKER_03: 2666 or war and peace,
7:05
SPEAKER_03: and there's some tabs going this way,
7:07
SPEAKER_03: some going this way,
7:08
SPEAKER_03: you know,
7:08
SPEAKER_03: you open it up and there's underlines and I'm like,
7:10
SPEAKER_03: there's gotta be a method to this madness.
7:12
SPEAKER_03: And it fascinates me.
7:13
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
7:15
SPEAKER_01: And it evolves all the time.
7:17
SPEAKER_01: You know, the book, uh, usually I don't start
7:20
the annotations and color coded tabs and all of that kind of
7:23
stuff until I've read
7:26
SPEAKER_01: maybe about 50 or so pages because the books will often dictate,
7:29
SPEAKER_01: uh,
7:30
SPEAKER_01: the system.
7:30
There's a loose framework that in general is there,
7:33
but it's an ever evolving,
7:35
uh,
7:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
7:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
7:38
SPEAKER_01: Love it.
7:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
7:39
SPEAKER_00: That's awesome.
7:41
SPEAKER_00: All right.
7:41
SPEAKER_00: Well,
7:41
is there anything else you'd kind of like to share with
7:44
listeners about Leaf by
7:45
SPEAKER_00: Leaf or other projects that you are involved in?
7:48
SPEAKER_00: We don't want to... I'm fascinated.
7:51
SPEAKER_00: I love following you online because you've also...
7:55
SPEAKER_00: done a lot of,
7:56
SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
7:58
SPEAKER_00: I don't know what the right word is,
8:00
but kind of commemorating and remembering and loving like
8:06
Michael Silverblatt's bookworm.
8:08
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
8:08
SPEAKER_00: And things like that.
8:10
And I'd love to give you a chance to share some of that before
8:14
we start jumping
8:15
SPEAKER_00: into other things.
8:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sure.
8:18
SPEAKER_01: I find myself always in this weird state.
8:23
SPEAKER_01: when asked this kind of question,
8:25
SPEAKER_01: because over the years,
8:27
SPEAKER_01: you know,
8:27
I've answered it in various places and I cannot overcome this
8:35
psychological impasse
8:38
SPEAKER_01: whereby on the one hand,
8:40
I always strive not to repeat myself because I don't want to be
8:43
one of those people
8:44
SPEAKER_01: that tell you the same story every time they see you.
8:46
SPEAKER_01: But at the same time,
8:48
also that editor within me who's aware that there are going to
8:51
be new people,
8:52
SPEAKER_01: you know,
8:53
SPEAKER_01: there are going to be people hearing it for the first time.
8:54
SPEAKER_01: So, uh, all of this, I'm just stating to sort of get it out of the way.
8:58
SPEAKER_01: And so I can, can move on.
9:00
SPEAKER_01: But,
9:01
SPEAKER_01: you know,
9:01
SPEAKER_01: this is also why I was just telling someone the other day,
9:04
SPEAKER_01: if I'm reading a book that I know I'm going to do a video on,
9:07
SPEAKER_01: I will often not talk about it at all until after I've done the video,
9:11
SPEAKER_01: because I find that it sort of,
9:13
SPEAKER_01: uh,
9:14
take some of that initial enthusiasm out of my voice when I go
9:17
to record the video
9:18
SPEAKER_01: and I've already talked to somebody about it.
9:21
SPEAKER_01: It's the same thing.
9:22
SPEAKER_01: So I guess it's just this,
9:23
SPEAKER_01: this hyper awareness that I'm trying to get over right now,
9:26
ever aware that the recording is going on and that you're going
9:29
to have to edit all
9:30
SPEAKER_01: of this.
9:30
SPEAKER_01: And the longer we go, the longer you'll be editing and
9:33
SPEAKER_01: But at the same time,
9:34
SPEAKER_01: there's a part of me that's like,
9:35
SPEAKER_01: that's exactly how it should be because we're talking about big books.
9:38
SPEAKER_01: So why not do a big episode?
9:40
SPEAKER_00: Hey, I'm reading Proust.
9:42
SPEAKER_00: I'm in the middle of the Germantes way.
9:44
SPEAKER_00: This is very Proustian.
9:45
Like,
9:46
okay,
9:46
here's the question,
9:47
but here's what's going on all around it.
9:48
SPEAKER_01: I love it.
9:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we won't get to the question for a while because you need, yeah.
9:53
SPEAKER_01: And it's funny you mention,
9:55
you say Proust because I just said that I was telling someone
9:58
the other day is
9:59
SPEAKER_01: actually someone who is a Proust scholar.
10:02
SPEAKER_01: And they just had their dissertation.
10:05
SPEAKER_01: What was their dissertation published in book form?
10:09
And I just recorded a video talking about it yesterday that
10:13
I'll post at the end of next month.
10:14
SPEAKER_01: But this is exactly the kind of stuff that he goes into in his book.
10:19
It's all the sort of metaphysical stuff around just going
10:24
straight to the answer.
10:26
SPEAKER_01: And this is also what big books do.
10:27
SPEAKER_01: So I'm also being very mimetic right now.
10:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
10:31
SPEAKER_01: Now I can't even remember the question.
10:32
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
10:33
SPEAKER_01: You want like a quick CV.
10:35
SPEAKER_01: You want a quick CV of CV.
10:37
So besides just being a dude who has access to a camera and a
10:44
YouTube account and
10:46
abuses it regularly to spout off about books because he doesn't
10:51
really have anyone
10:52
SPEAKER_01: in his immediate life who's willing
10:56
SPEAKER_01: to really dive in and listen to it all.
11:02
Aside from that,
11:03
yeah,
11:04
there's been a lot of things that have happened just in a brief time.
11:07
SPEAKER_01: So within this five and a half year span,
11:10
SPEAKER_01: I started publishing written reviews in various places.
11:17
And I'll never forget in 2021,
11:18
I got a review published in the Kenyan Review
11:26
SPEAKER_01: which I was,
11:28
SPEAKER_01: I had been targeting Kenyon with original fiction 15,
11:34
SPEAKER_01: seven to 17 years,
11:35
SPEAKER_01: something like that.
11:36
SPEAKER_01: I just knowing that,
11:38
SPEAKER_01: you know,
11:38
SPEAKER_01: they've published Ralph Waldo Emerson that of course,
11:41
SPEAKER_01: David Foster Wallace gave his,
11:42
this is water commencement speech there that bill Watterson
11:46
gave his commencement
11:47
SPEAKER_01: speech there.
11:48
SPEAKER_01: Kenyon's just always been kind of a goal.
11:51
SPEAKER_01: Uh, and I did achieve that though, not with original fiction,
11:56
SPEAKER_01: I did achieve it.
11:58
And there's all these great synchronicities because that was a
12:02
book called Femme.
12:04
SPEAKER_01: It was translated from the Romanian by Sean Carter,
12:10
SPEAKER_01: who would,
12:11
SPEAKER_01: of course,
12:12
SPEAKER_01: who's translated the left wing of Mercia Carterescu's Blinding.
12:18
SPEAKER_01: That's another big book for you.
12:20
SPEAKER_01: And, of course, also translated Solenoid.
12:24
SPEAKER_01: So that was really neat.
12:28
SPEAKER_01: Took a sip of tea there.
12:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
12:31
SPEAKER_01: then I got in touch with Jim Gower,
12:36
SPEAKER_01: ended up writing an afterword to his book,
12:41
SPEAKER_01: Novel Explosives.
12:42
SPEAKER_01: That's another big book for you.
12:44
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'll stop saying that after naming each one.
12:48
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, then Michael Silverblatt.
12:50
SPEAKER_01: So I don't, that was the craziest thing.
12:53
SPEAKER_01: I just asked Stephen Moore
12:56
who I see as somewhat of a mentor of mine,
13:01
even though we've never met in person.
13:03
And I just asked him if I could get permission to post the
13:10
unexpurgated episode,
13:13
SPEAKER_01: the bookworm episode,
13:14
SPEAKER_01: where Michael Silverblatt talks with Stephen Moore.
13:18
So instead of the 25 minutes that everybody got,
13:21
the full hour of their talk.
13:24
SPEAKER_01: And he gave me
13:26
SPEAKER_01: Michael Silverblatt's email address.
13:27
SPEAKER_01: And then we started talking and,
13:29
SPEAKER_01: uh,
13:30
and then I got involved with the book that eventually came out
13:34
from the song cave
13:35
SPEAKER_01: called conversations with Michael Silverblatt.
13:38
SPEAKER_01: Um, so there's been all kinds of, of little things.
13:42
Like I,
13:43
I took over the NYRB Instagram one time live for,
13:48
for a little while to interview Tim.
13:51
SPEAKER_01: Uh, who has been doing his 100 books project retyping on a typewriter.
13:56
books that were originally typed out on a typewriter at the
14:00
time he was doing the recognitions.
14:03
SPEAKER_01: And so we talked about that.
14:05
SPEAKER_01: He was taking his break.
14:07
SPEAKER_01: He does it for like eight hours a day.
14:09
SPEAKER_01: And he's a performance artist.
14:10
SPEAKER_01: And people watch him in a curated space typing up these novels.
14:17
SPEAKER_01: But just really cool things have happened.
14:23
and are continuing to happen in addition to,
14:26
of course,
14:27
recording the videos.
14:29
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I've just gotten to get in touch with a lot of great people.
14:36
And obviously,
14:37
as we see right at this very moment,
14:39
that is continuing to happen.
14:41
SPEAKER_01: So, I mean, I'm just, I'm thrilled to be here.
14:43
SPEAKER_01: I've been listening through your archive of episodes and I'm like,
14:49
SPEAKER_01: man,
14:49
SPEAKER_01: this is,
14:50
SPEAKER_01: this is just a wonderful,
14:52
wonderful space for literature uh yeah that's that's it for me
14:57
that i can think of
14:58
no well thank you so much and it is it is fun to hear from you
15:02
about about all of
15:03
that and hear some of your enthusiasm and yeah it's kind of
15:06
crazy how these things
15:07
happen paul and i have talked about this a little bit we we met
15:10
each other 15
15:13
years ago or so a little bit more than that now paul just on an
15:17
online space for
15:18
talking about books called palimpsest and you know we've
15:21
continued to meet more and
15:23
more people over the years and it's there's just so many
15:27
enthusiastic encouraging
15:29
you know kind-hearted um nevertheless people who it's just you
15:34
know enriching so
15:36
SPEAKER_00: but
15:38
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you're going to have anything that,
15:40
I know you don't want to talk about a book that you're about to
15:42
record a video on,
15:43
SPEAKER_00: Chris,
15:43
SPEAKER_00: but we do start with a what have you been reading kind of question.
15:46
Is there anything you would like to share with us that you've
15:49
been enjoying over
15:51
SPEAKER_00: the past little bit that you've been reading?
15:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for sure.
15:56
SPEAKER_01: There's,
15:56
SPEAKER_01: of course,
15:57
SPEAKER_01: the book that came out of the dissertation that I was talking about,
16:03
SPEAKER_01: so I'll leave that for next month.
16:06
SPEAKER_01: It's just, it's incredible.
16:08
And then I just finished and did a video on The Dying Grass by
16:13
William T.
16:14
Volman.
16:15
SPEAKER_01: That was my second time reading it.
16:18
SPEAKER_01: And I'm just blown away by what he achieves in his writing in general.
16:26
SPEAKER_01: But in these seven dreams in particular, just the voice that he has found
16:35
SPEAKER_01: for approaching these works of what I have started calling participatory,
16:43
SPEAKER_01: immersive,
16:46
SPEAKER_01: historical fiction.
16:49
SPEAKER_01: And I just finished Faust this morning.
16:54
SPEAKER_01: I think this is my third translation of Faust.
16:58
SPEAKER_01: And I thought I brought it in here.
17:00
SPEAKER_01: I guess not.
17:01
SPEAKER_01: But it's a translation that was put out by Deep Vellum in 2020.
17:09
And kind of a lot of stuff that came out in 2020 kind of went
17:12
under the radar
17:14
SPEAKER_01: because of a global pandemic.
17:18
And the same thing,
17:21
I think,
17:22
sort of happened with Michael Brodsky's Inviticum.
17:28
which I read at the end of last year,
17:30
and then it was my first video review of this year.
17:34
SPEAKER_01: But Faust I just finished this morning in this new translation,
17:38
SPEAKER_01: and I definitely laughed a lot more.
17:41
SPEAKER_01: And it's only the first part, by the way.
17:43
SPEAKER_01: It's only Faust part one.
17:45
But I am actually going to do a video on that one because it's
17:49
on what I call my Western core.
17:53
SPEAKER_01: And so, yeah, on that channel, I'm doing a Western core, and I'm being...
17:58
SPEAKER_01: very careful not to come across as a canon dictator.
18:06
SPEAKER_01: This is just simply,
18:07
I challenged myself a long time ago to try and come up with a
18:13
list of something
18:14
like no more than a dozen representatives of what I would say
18:20
is like the core of
18:22
SPEAKER_01: Western literature.
18:24
SPEAKER_01: And that's very, very tough.
18:27
SPEAKER_01: But nonetheless, Faust is is firmly on there.
18:30
SPEAKER_01: And so I wanted to read to read this one to just bring attention to,
18:35
SPEAKER_01: you know,
18:35
SPEAKER_01: a book that this new translation that came out in a really,
18:40
SPEAKER_01: really bad time.
18:42
SPEAKER_01: But also,
18:42
SPEAKER_01: you know,
18:43
SPEAKER_01: each time I reread a book in translation,
18:46
SPEAKER_01: if possible,
18:47
SPEAKER_01: I try to read it in a new translation.
18:51
SPEAKER_01: What else have I been reading recently?
18:57
SPEAKER_01: why don't you guys go ahead and go and...
19:01
SPEAKER_03: I might jump in if I can,
19:02
SPEAKER_03: if you don't mind,
19:02
SPEAKER_03: Trevor,
19:03
SPEAKER_03: just because I was actually going to...
19:05
SPEAKER_03: I knew that you were going to be on,
19:06
SPEAKER_03: Chris,
19:06
SPEAKER_03: and I was watching the Dying Grass video last night,
19:10
SPEAKER_03: and it was good timing because I recently finally jumped in to William T.
19:15
SPEAKER_03: Vollman.
19:15
I had been circling him warily for a while and picking up his
19:19
books every time I
19:20
SPEAKER_03: saw them,
19:20
SPEAKER_03: but never quite sure when and how to jump in.
19:23
SPEAKER_03: And so I decided...
19:24
Stupidly or not just to jump in with book one of the seven
19:27
dreams So I have been
19:28
reading the ice shirt over the last couple weeks and just
19:32
hearing you talking about
19:33
the dying grass Which was actually the first one that I ever
19:35
grabbed It was just so
19:37
inspiring and it helped me start to because I don't know like
19:41
jumping into it It's
19:42
not that I don't know what's going on because I've watched your
19:45
videos and I've
19:45
SPEAKER_03: heard a lot of people Talk about him,
19:47
but at the same time It's still a jolting experience at least
19:49
for me to start
19:50
SPEAKER_03: reading and kind of get the feel of what he's doing the way he will
19:54
SPEAKER_03: as you pointed out,
19:55
SPEAKER_03: jump,
19:56
SPEAKER_03: you know,
19:56
SPEAKER_03: from in this case,
19:57
SPEAKER_03: you know,
19:59
hundreds of years ago in Iceland and all of a sudden he's in
20:01
modern day United
20:03
SPEAKER_03: States or,
20:03
SPEAKER_03: you know,
20:03
SPEAKER_03: whatever.
20:04
SPEAKER_03: And so I was like, what is happening here?
20:05
SPEAKER_03: And so I just thought it would be a good opportunity to just kind of,
20:09
SPEAKER_03: yeah,
20:09
SPEAKER_03: mention that one because I am absolutely loving it,
20:12
SPEAKER_03: but honestly still getting my footing even probably 150 pages in,
20:15
SPEAKER_03: but I'm looking forward to that whole experience and that whole process.
20:20
SPEAKER_03: So I just appreciated your video and that really has already helped me
20:24
SPEAKER_03: Oh, that's great to hear.
20:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
20:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
20:26
SPEAKER_01: Great.
20:26
SPEAKER_01: And I do have a video on the ice shirt specifically out there too.
20:30
SPEAKER_01: I think I have one on all the dreams now.
20:33
SPEAKER_03: Nice.
20:34
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
20:34
SPEAKER_03: I was thinking,
20:35
I hadn't actually thought about going back and watching that
20:37
until last night
20:39
SPEAKER_03: watching the dying grass.
20:40
SPEAKER_03: And you mentioned that in passing that you had one of the ice shirts.
20:42
SPEAKER_03: So I think I'm going to go.
20:43
SPEAKER_03: Oh, okay.
20:44
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, no, that's awesome.
20:45
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
20:45
SPEAKER_03: And then, so I've been reading that.
20:47
SPEAKER_03: And then the other one that I,
20:48
SPEAKER_03: um,
20:49
SPEAKER_03: just picked up recently because I don't have enough big,
20:51
SPEAKER_03: serious,
20:52
SPEAKER_03: complex books going on in my life right now.
20:55
Um,
20:55
I did,
20:56
we've talked about the buzz online and I include you in that Chris.
20:59
SPEAKER_03: Um,
21:00
but there's these people that I am usually hesitant to jump on
21:03
the bandwagon of
21:04
SPEAKER_03: some of these buzzy books.
21:06
SPEAKER_03: Like if anything,
21:06
SPEAKER_03: I probably have a contrary and streak where I'm like,
21:09
SPEAKER_03: you know,
21:09
SPEAKER_03: I'm going to wait and read it later.
21:10
SPEAKER_03: But, um,
21:12
SPEAKER_03: There are people like you and others who have the opposite effect.
21:15
And so the Aesthetics of Resistance by Peter Weiss is a series
21:20
that has been just
21:21
SPEAKER_03: buzzing lately.
21:22
SPEAKER_03: And I...
21:24
SPEAKER_03: was having trouble tracking it down.
21:26
And so I ended up getting it through interlibrary loan and I've
21:28
been reading it,
21:29
but I'm starting to feel the pressure as the weeks tick by and
21:32
I see it's almost
21:33
SPEAKER_03: time to turn it back in.
21:34
So I did a search yesterday and found out that they just
21:38
released the third one.
21:39
And so I think that's part of the reason why now books one and
21:41
two are much more
21:42
SPEAKER_03: readily available,
21:43
SPEAKER_03: at least as far as I can tell.
21:44
SPEAKER_03: So anyway,
21:45
SPEAKER_03: long story short,
21:46
I picked up all three of those yesterday while still making my
21:49
way through book one.
21:50
SPEAKER_03: But I mean, those books are just...
21:52
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
21:53
SPEAKER_03: they're not super big physically,
21:55
SPEAKER_03: but I feel like they're very good to the conversation.
21:57
SPEAKER_03: They are so dense.
21:58
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
21:59
SPEAKER_03: Pages of text.
22:00
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
22:01
SPEAKER_03: Beautifully written, but it requires a lot of you as a reader.
22:04
SPEAKER_03: So, yeah, I'm in the middle of a few of those kind of books right now.
22:09
SPEAKER_03: But I don't know.
22:09
SPEAKER_03: For whatever reason, I'm just – I'm in it.
22:11
SPEAKER_03: So I'm enjoying those too.
22:13
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
22:14
SPEAKER_03: So that's kind of – Oh, that's great.
22:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
22:16
SPEAKER_01: Sorry.
22:17
SPEAKER_01: I'm glad you mentioned those.
22:19
SPEAKER_01: I'm glancing over it.
22:21
SPEAKER_01: all three of them myself, maybe about halfway through.
22:25
SPEAKER_01: But yeah,
22:25
as soon as I saw that Duke University was finally completing
22:29
the trilogy and
22:31
SPEAKER_01: bringing it out,
22:31
SPEAKER_01: and then furthermore,
22:33
SPEAKER_01: with an introduction from Frederick Jameson,
22:36
SPEAKER_01: who recently passed away,
22:38
SPEAKER_01: I couldn't resist.
22:40
SPEAKER_01: And once I got the capstone in my possession,
22:44
started in on it and then and i knew what i was getting into
22:47
because like most of
22:48
us i flipped through the books before i ever start them and get
22:51
a sense and i saw
22:53
oh yeah this is just walls of of text uh even though they're
22:58
what maybe 200 the
23:00
left the first one's the biggest maybe 300 pages but but yeah
23:04
really dense um but
23:07
you know i really like lengthy descriptions of paintings uh and
23:12
other things so we
23:13
SPEAKER_01: get
23:14
SPEAKER_01: We get a lot of that advice.
23:17
SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
23:17
I thought about reading a little bit from the beginning and I'm
23:20
not going to for
23:20
the sake of time because I have a feeling this episode is going
23:23
to be big itself.
23:24
SPEAKER_03: But yeah,
23:25
SPEAKER_03: if anybody is on the fence,
23:26
SPEAKER_03: I would just recommend,
23:27
SPEAKER_03: you know,
23:28
SPEAKER_03: somehow if you can find it online,
23:29
SPEAKER_03: just reading the opening.
23:31
page or two i mean it he doesn't mess around he dives straight
23:34
into in this case i
23:35
don't think it's a painting it's sculpture but it the
23:38
descriptions of art are just
23:40
absolutely gorgeous um and then yeah as he moves along like you
23:43
said it it goes
23:44
into paintings and other things and he's just tying in um you
23:48
know how art can be a
23:51
way to get through rough times politically and historically but
23:54
also how it
23:55
interprets it and i mean there's just so much depth there and
23:58
the writing itself is
23:59
SPEAKER_03: absolutely
24:00
beautiful so yeah highly recommended so far oh i love it i love
24:06
it i'll be brief
24:07
too i just finished last night a big book i finished middle
24:10
march a reread of that
24:12
all right we we started at this was it january 1st paul kind of
24:17
an online book
24:18
SPEAKER_00: group and it went it was a slow slow slow read it um
24:22
SPEAKER_00: Paul finished some time ago because he just couldn't handle the pace.
24:26
SPEAKER_00: I think he did the right thing.
24:27
SPEAKER_00: Honestly,
24:28
SPEAKER_00: I,
24:29
SPEAKER_00: toward the end,
24:30
SPEAKER_00: it was getting a little bit,
24:31
SPEAKER_00: you know,
24:31
SPEAKER_00: more and more like,
24:32
SPEAKER_00: I just want to kind of get through this.
24:34
SPEAKER_00: Not because the book made me like tired of itself,
24:37
SPEAKER_00: but because I wanted to keep on going rather than,
24:40
SPEAKER_00: you know,
24:40
SPEAKER_00: especially at the end where the chapters get shorter,
24:43
SPEAKER_00: but we were still only doing five chapters a week.
24:45
SPEAKER_00: It felt like I would read for
24:47
SPEAKER_00: you know, five minutes and then be done.
24:49
SPEAKER_00: Right.
24:50
SPEAKER_00: So, but yeah, just loved, loved getting through that one again.
24:53
SPEAKER_00: And then a different kind of a book.
24:57
SPEAKER_00: I'm reading a very short book.
24:58
SPEAKER_00: I'm reading Caroline Blackwood's Great Granny Webster for NYRB Women 25.
25:05
SPEAKER_00: And I'll finish that one today.
25:07
SPEAKER_00: But man, what a, I still don't entirely know what's going on.
25:11
SPEAKER_00: I know what's going on.
25:12
SPEAKER_00: That makes it sound like it's surreal or something.
25:14
SPEAKER_00: It isn't so much that as much as,
25:17
SPEAKER_00: I'm not, I'm so much enjoying the characters.
25:20
SPEAKER_00: I really enjoy the enigmas,
25:22
SPEAKER_00: but I'm,
25:23
SPEAKER_00: I'm,
25:23
SPEAKER_00: I have no idea where the next chapter is even going to go,
25:25
SPEAKER_00: you know?
25:26
SPEAKER_00: So that's been a lot of fun.
25:29
SPEAKER_00: Um, but I'll also be brief because Paul has a job he has to get to today.
25:35
SPEAKER_00: And today is a big day for that job.
25:38
SPEAKER_00: So Paul, what is today?
25:41
I know it won't be this day for listeners when you listen to this,
25:43
but still we're celebrating.
25:46
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, today is Independent Booksellers Day here in the U.S.
25:49
SPEAKER_03: And I don't know, is that worldwide all on the same day?
25:53
SPEAKER_03: But at least in the U.S.
25:54
SPEAKER_03: We were talking about it with Chris before we started recording.
25:56
SPEAKER_03: I mean, I don't know.
25:57
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, but either way, I will be headed over to the bookstore.
26:00
SPEAKER_00: You can celebrate anywhere you listen to this actually.
26:03
SPEAKER_03: Knowing our readers, they will make it a celebration today either way.
26:07
SPEAKER_03: But yeah, so we were talking a little bit before we started recording.
26:09
SPEAKER_03: Chris...
26:10
SPEAKER_03: sounds like you already have big plans to go hit some bookstores today.
26:13
SPEAKER_03: I,
26:14
SPEAKER_03: I don't know if you know this,
26:14
SPEAKER_03: Chris,
26:15
SPEAKER_03: but I work,
26:15
SPEAKER_03: um,
26:16
SPEAKER_03: moonlight occasionally one,
26:17
SPEAKER_03: one day a week or so at a friend's bookstore.
26:20
SPEAKER_03: So we're expecting a big day.
26:22
SPEAKER_03: It's going to be fun.
26:23
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
26:23
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
26:24
SPEAKER_01: I, you know, it's so funny.
26:27
SPEAKER_01: I,
26:27
SPEAKER_01: well,
26:28
SPEAKER_01: not really funny,
26:28
SPEAKER_01: but kind of sad actually,
26:30
SPEAKER_01: but I,
26:31
SPEAKER_01: uh,
26:32
SPEAKER_01: I can't remember how long it,
26:33
SPEAKER_01: whether two or three years,
26:34
SPEAKER_01: whatever,
26:35
SPEAKER_01: but I did,
26:36
SPEAKER_01: uh,
26:37
SPEAKER_01: a recording on,
26:40
SPEAKER_01: independent booksellers day at what was my local indie sunrise books.
26:45
SPEAKER_01: And there's a video out there, just as short little promo.
26:48
SPEAKER_01: And I hung out in the store all day.
26:50
SPEAKER_01: Um, but sadly, uh, about six months later, they had to shut down.
26:55
Um,
26:56
so today though,
26:58
there,
26:59
uh,
26:59
there are several that we're going to get to.
27:01
SPEAKER_01: So yeah,
27:02
SPEAKER_01: as soon as we're done talking,
27:04
SPEAKER_01: we're going to blast out of here and go hit a bunch of them and,
27:08
I've had a pretty good run going recently with bookstore heists
27:14
in all over the world,
27:15
SPEAKER_01: it seems.
27:16
SPEAKER_01: I've just suddenly,
27:17
SPEAKER_01: you know,
27:19
SPEAKER_01: we went to Atlanta a couple weeks ago and,
27:24
SPEAKER_01: oh man,
27:24
SPEAKER_01: Atlanta vintage books.
27:26
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
27:27
SPEAKER_01: I was so impressed.
27:28
SPEAKER_01: I'd been wanting to get there for a very, very long time, but
27:32
um finally got to go to atlanta vintage books and uh formerly
27:37
you know acapella uh
27:39
is is incredible uh but yeah all that to say you know i'm sorry
27:43
i'm getting so
27:44
SPEAKER_01: tangential
27:45
SPEAKER_01: No.
27:46
SPEAKER_01: I know that's welcome.
27:48
SPEAKER_01: You're in the right place.
27:49
SPEAKER_01: That's what we do.
27:49
SPEAKER_03: That's what we do.
27:51
SPEAKER_03: Speaking of,
27:52
SPEAKER_03: I'll just mention that Atlanta Vintage Books is,
27:54
SPEAKER_03: Trevor,
27:55
SPEAKER_03: I've told you that story about when I was traveling for work.
27:58
SPEAKER_00: I got jealous immediately.
28:00
SPEAKER_03: And Chris,
28:01
SPEAKER_03: there was,
28:01
so I just had my carry-on suitcase and I was traveling for work
28:04
and I managed to
28:05
SPEAKER_03: run over there.
28:06
And I had been looking for all the Zola books and I had like
28:10
one or two of them,
28:11
SPEAKER_03: but I was trying to get the whole collection.
28:13
And,
28:14
of course,
28:15
I go in there and they have the entire shelf and it's a used bookstore.
28:18
SPEAKER_03: And I was talking to a lady.
28:19
SPEAKER_03: They're so nice there.
28:20
SPEAKER_03: And I was like, oh, I should probably only be able to fit.
28:21
You know,
28:22
I probably only grab like two or three of these because I have
28:24
a suitcase.
28:25
SPEAKER_03: And she's like, well, what if I gave you buy one, get one free?
28:29
SPEAKER_03: And so I ended up walking out of there with something like $15.
28:33
of those books and like just jamming them into my suitcase so
28:36
yeah just to echo
28:37
that there are so many wonderful ones including atlanta vintage
28:40
out there it's it's
28:40
always fun just a treasure hunt to go in to anybody oh yeah you
28:44
just never know
28:44
what you're gonna find yeah you didn't have any laundry to do
28:49
you know yeah exactly
28:52
i did notice when i was there that they had this shelf of
28:55
clothing for sale i guess
28:56
those were your garments that you left exactly that was part of
29:00
the deal that was
29:01
SPEAKER_01: part of the trade
29:02
You walked out of there carrying some of the Zolas in very
29:06
specific locations to
29:08
SPEAKER_01: make up your car without getting arrested.
29:12
SPEAKER_01: I love the hunt.
29:13
SPEAKER_01: There is the bookstore hunt.
29:16
SPEAKER_01: I have a little notepad,
29:18
a little note file on my phone of all of my sort of white
29:21
whales that I always look for.
29:25
Some of them,
29:27
as a friend recently pointed out,
29:28
are readily available to purchase online for
29:32
SPEAKER_01: you know, nominal fees.
29:34
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
29:34
SPEAKER_01: some,
29:35
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
29:35
SPEAKER_01: some of them are 15 bucks,
29:37
SPEAKER_01: you know what I'm looking for,
29:38
SPEAKER_01: but I want to find it in the wild.
29:41
SPEAKER_01: You know, I want to spurn the internet and it's, it's ease.
29:46
SPEAKER_01: And,
29:46
SPEAKER_00: uh,
29:46
SPEAKER_01: I want to,
29:47
SPEAKER_01: I want to go back to the days of,
29:49
SPEAKER_01: you know,
29:49
SPEAKER_01: you have to go to the bookstore to see what's out.
29:53
And,
29:53
uh,
29:53
at some of them,
29:54
I,
29:54
yeah,
29:54
I just only want to find them in the wild and I'll plug this
29:57
SPEAKER_01: Because it is also a big book or a big series of books.
30:02
But Dorothy Richardson's pilgrimage novel cycle,
30:07
I think it's 13 made up of 13 books.
30:11
One of them might have been published posthumously,
30:14
giving it the baker's dozen 13.
30:16
SPEAKER_01: And she referred to them as chapters.
30:20
But there's a volume of or a set of four hardcovers that
30:28
contain all 13 volumes.
30:30
SPEAKER_01: And I've been hunting this for a while.
30:33
SPEAKER_01: And I finally locked it down this morning, in fact.
30:37
SPEAKER_01: So this has been a big morning for me.
30:39
SPEAKER_01: I finished Faust.
30:41
SPEAKER_01: I locked down and purchased Faust.
30:44
SPEAKER_01: A set of hardcovers of Dorothy Richardson's Pilgrimage.
30:49
SPEAKER_01: And here I am recording this podcast.
30:52
SPEAKER_01: And I have the afternoon of bookstore browsing.
30:54
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's just a great day.
30:55
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it doesn't get any better.
30:57
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't get any better.
30:59
SPEAKER_01: But the conclusion of the hunt, like it's that fourth.
31:04
SPEAKER_01: It's as if Melville wrote a fourth book.
31:07
SPEAKER_01: joust with the whale where Ahab does get it, you know?
31:12
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
31:13
SPEAKER_01: No, I love that.
31:14
I agree with you that finding it in the wild,
31:17
some books you get them,
31:18
however you can get them.
31:19
SPEAKER_03: If the internet is the way that you're going to do, but I'm with you.
31:22
I mean,
31:22
if you can find it in the wild,
31:23
there's just that extra thrill to it for sure.
31:25
SPEAKER_03: I love that.
31:26
SPEAKER_03: That's amazing.
31:27
SPEAKER_01: And when it has a price on it that,
31:29
SPEAKER_01: you know,
31:29
SPEAKER_01: they're not aware of,
31:31
SPEAKER_01: like,
31:31
SPEAKER_01: you know,
31:32
SPEAKER_01: that they don't realize they had to come back and corrected it.
31:36
SPEAKER_01: and you walk up to the counter with your hands trembling,
31:39
SPEAKER_01: you know,
31:40
SPEAKER_01: feeling like you're going to be found out and they're going to be like,
31:43
SPEAKER_01: Oh,
31:43
SPEAKER_01: that's actually not supposed to be that.
31:45
SPEAKER_01: That's that.
31:46
SPEAKER_01: And then you get away with it.
31:48
SPEAKER_01: Oh man.
31:50
SPEAKER_03: Just be cool, man.
31:51
SPEAKER_03: Just be cool.
31:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
31:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
31:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
31:53
SPEAKER_00: Hey, well, good luck today.
31:57
SPEAKER_00: Uh, everybody with your, your book, your book trolling.
32:01
SPEAKER_00: Um,
32:02
SPEAKER_00: All right.
32:02
SPEAKER_00: Well, that's us warmed up, I think.
32:05
SPEAKER_00: And a good time to be warmed up.
32:07
SPEAKER_00: We've got to take on some weighty matters here and start the workout.
32:11
As I mentioned before,
32:13
Chris,
32:13
you've helped many of us get through long books.
32:16
And I think our listeners know Paul and I have a soft spot for
32:19
big ones too.
32:22
We bring them up whenever we can to show off our accomplishments,
32:28
I guess.
32:28
Even if it doesn't fit the conversation,
32:30
Paul will throw in Lonesome Dove.
32:32
SPEAKER_00: I'll throw in 2666 or Moby Dick or something like that.
32:39
SPEAKER_00: But today we are embracing it and going to be talking about big books,
32:44
SPEAKER_00: why we gravitate toward them,
32:46
SPEAKER_00: what they demand of us and what they give back.
32:49
SPEAKER_00: And I have some kind of questions here.
32:51
SPEAKER_00: We can go however we want to.
32:54
SPEAKER_00: But I do want to try to understand what is a big book?
32:58
Paul and I often,
32:59
Chris,
33:00
we'll have these general,
33:01
maybe even slightly vague topics.
33:04
And some of the most fun that we have is trying to figure out,
33:07
well,
33:08
what did that mean?
33:08
When you were putting together your thoughts for this episode,
33:11
were we even on the same page?
33:14
SPEAKER_00: We did epic books once.
33:16
SPEAKER_00: So this is different from epic books.
33:18
SPEAKER_00: And one of Paul's epic books was...
33:22
SPEAKER_00: train dreams by Dennis Johnson,
33:23
SPEAKER_00: which totally fits,
33:24
SPEAKER_00: but you know,
33:25
SPEAKER_00: I think most people would see that on the shelf and never think,
33:27
SPEAKER_00: well,
33:28
SPEAKER_00: that's,
33:28
SPEAKER_00: that looks like an Epic,
33:30
SPEAKER_00: you know?
33:31
SPEAKER_00: And so I'm curious if Paul's going to be like,
33:35
SPEAKER_00: it's also a big book,
33:36
SPEAKER_00: Trevor,
33:38
SPEAKER_00: you know,
33:38
SPEAKER_00: what,
33:39
SPEAKER_00: what do we mean?
33:39
SPEAKER_00: Is it the page count?
33:40
SPEAKER_00: Is it that literal,
33:42
SPEAKER_00: that literal take,
33:42
SPEAKER_00: or is it,
33:43
SPEAKER_00: is,
33:43
SPEAKER_00: does it also have to do with just the size of that book on your shelf?
33:47
SPEAKER_00: Even if it's, maybe it doesn't have more than 300 pages, but the,
33:51
SPEAKER_00: The book itself is just huge.
33:52
SPEAKER_00: I mean, what do you guys think?
33:54
SPEAKER_00: What qualifies as a big book to you,
33:57
SPEAKER_00: recognizing that,
33:59
SPEAKER_00: you know,
33:59
SPEAKER_00: the boundaries of this is a little bit fluid and,
34:02
SPEAKER_00: you know,
34:02
SPEAKER_00: Paul's here,
34:03
SPEAKER_00: so we have no idea where it really will go.
34:07
SPEAKER_03: I feel like I might stay between the lines today, but you never know.
34:09
SPEAKER_03: We'll see how it goes.
34:10
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
34:11
SPEAKER_03: I think we started that poking at the edges of that a little bit,
34:13
SPEAKER_03: even when we were talking about the aesthetics of resistance,
34:15
SPEAKER_03: because I would say that.
34:17
SPEAKER_00: I paid attention.
34:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
34:19
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
34:19
SPEAKER_03: those are,
34:20
SPEAKER_03: I don't think,
34:21
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
34:21
SPEAKER_03: again,
34:21
SPEAKER_03: I'm only like a hundred pages in,
34:22
but I don't think there's any way you could deny those are big
34:24
books based on the
34:26
SPEAKER_03: topics they're covering,
34:27
SPEAKER_03: the way they're going about it.
34:28
If you even think about the dense layers of text that Chris was
34:31
talking about.
34:32
I mean,
34:32
again,
34:33
if you looked at the spine or even if you flip through it,
34:35
it's,
34:37
SPEAKER_03: 200, maybe 300 pages, but I would still say it qualifies.
34:40
SPEAKER_03: So I think you're right.
34:40
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
34:41
SPEAKER_03: I think for the most part today,
34:43
SPEAKER_03: I took us pretty literally and went,
34:45
SPEAKER_03: these are physically big books.
34:48
But I think that there is a lot to be poked out around that
34:51
idea because the
34:54
SPEAKER_03: contents can vary,
34:55
SPEAKER_03: I think,
34:56
and could take something that might not otherwise qualify and
34:59
push it up into what
35:00
SPEAKER_03: I would consider a big book,
35:02
SPEAKER_03: like those books that we were talking about.
35:04
SPEAKER_00: Well,
35:05
SPEAKER_00: and on that line,
35:05
there is like the emotional and mental investment you have to
35:08
put into a book that
35:09
SPEAKER_00: can make it big.
35:10
Or even there's just the ambition that you can tell has gone
35:12
into this thing.
35:14
SPEAKER_00: And it almost worked in reverse.
35:16
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
35:18
SPEAKER_00: another thing that for you,
35:19
SPEAKER_00: Chris,
35:19
SPEAKER_00: Paul and I have a fantasy past,
35:22
SPEAKER_00: you know,
35:22
SPEAKER_00: from our childhood in the 80s and 90s.
35:25
SPEAKER_00: And a lot of those were just massive, big fantasy books.
35:31
SPEAKER_00: I don't,
35:32
SPEAKER_00: they're clearly big books in the literal sense,
35:34
SPEAKER_00: and some of them are big in the physical sense.
35:37
But I didn't bring up any of them in my list because,
35:42
you know,
35:42
I'm not trying to downplay them.
35:44
SPEAKER_00: The ambition is something different.
35:46
It's not really what I was thinking of when I think of big
35:49
books in the context of
35:51
SPEAKER_00: our show and how we do this.
35:54
SPEAKER_00: And it's interesting how some of those can fill so fast.
35:57
You know,
35:57
I also thought of like Anthony Horowitz's The Magpie Murders,
36:01
which is like 600 pages.
36:03
SPEAKER_00: It's two books in one,
36:04
SPEAKER_00: you know,
36:05
literally that it's actually you have to do some math to figure
36:08
out the page count
36:09
SPEAKER_00: because it's two books.
36:11
SPEAKER_00: And they both have their own pagination.
36:14
SPEAKER_00: And it's a lot of fun.
36:15
SPEAKER_00: You can breeze through that thing in a little bit.
36:18
SPEAKER_00: And it's not to say it's not ambitious or brilliant in its own way.
36:23
SPEAKER_00: When I think of a big book,
36:24
SPEAKER_00: it is size,
36:26
but there is that emotional and mental investment and that
36:31
ambition that...
36:32
SPEAKER_00: Just, I don't know, I went that direction.
36:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
36:35
SPEAKER_00: What about you, Chris?
36:38
SPEAKER_00: What's kind of your gut reaction to the big book thought?
36:42
SPEAKER_00: I think I might have an idea.
36:44
You're probably one of the reasons I think of big books the way
36:46
that I do.
36:48
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
36:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
36:50
And I did do a video early on on the channel trying to grapple
36:57
with this question
36:57
SPEAKER_01: of defining a big book.
37:01
And I think I even gave some pretty hard quantitative parameters,
37:07
like 700 pages and greater.
37:11
SPEAKER_01: But I remember as that was coming out of my mouth,
37:14
SPEAKER_01: I immediately thought of gas as the tunnel,
37:17
SPEAKER_01: which is 651 pages.
37:20
SPEAKER_01: in my donkey paperback.
37:21
SPEAKER_01: And I thought, oh man, I just canceled that out.
37:24
SPEAKER_01: I thought of others in different editions.
37:27
SPEAKER_01: And of course it depends on the edition.
37:29
So really I need to probably do an amended episode on that very
37:37
topic because really,
37:38
SPEAKER_01: excuse me,
37:39
SPEAKER_01: what it is,
37:40
is the best way that I can define what I'm talking about when I
37:45
talk about
37:46
SPEAKER_01: Big books,
37:46
SPEAKER_01: as in the big books that I really gravitate toward,
37:50
SPEAKER_01: are books that force you to live in them for a very long time.
37:57
SPEAKER_01: And so absolutely, it can be the rigor and force of the ideas presented.
38:08
SPEAKER_01: And so easily, you know, last year I reread Nausea.
38:14
SPEAKER_01: by Jean-Paul Sartre.
38:16
SPEAKER_01: And I just thought, Oh, my goodness, I don't think I connected with it.
38:20
I think it's the first time I really connected with it on a
38:24
really deep level.
38:27
And the book is,
38:27
you know,
38:28
it's a,
38:29
it's a whisper of a book in terms of page count.
38:33
SPEAKER_01: But the ideas presented the way they're presented,
38:36
SPEAKER_01: I was like,
38:37
SPEAKER_01: this is actually a big book,
38:39
SPEAKER_01: you know.
38:41
SPEAKER_01: But it
38:42
SPEAKER_01: nonetheless doesn't force you to live in,
38:46
SPEAKER_01: in it for a very,
38:47
SPEAKER_01: very long time,
38:48
SPEAKER_01: unless you are really,
38:50
SPEAKER_01: you know,
38:50
deliberate about forcing yourself only to read a few pages a
38:52
day or something like that.
38:53
SPEAKER_01: But,
38:54
SPEAKER_01: you know,
38:54
SPEAKER_01: in generally the,
38:56
SPEAKER_01: I,
38:56
SPEAKER_01: the average reader is going to read nausea in a week or two,
39:00
SPEAKER_01: uh,
39:01
SPEAKER_01: at most,
39:02
SPEAKER_01: I think,
39:03
SPEAKER_01: uh,
39:03
SPEAKER_01: even really grappling with it,
39:06
SPEAKER_01: uh,
39:06
SPEAKER_01: and engaging with it.
39:07
SPEAKER_01: So there is something to be said for, for length, uh,
39:11
and size,
39:13
uh,
39:13
in terms of forcing you to,
39:15
to stay inside of,
39:16
of it and,
39:17
and live with it.
39:18
SPEAKER_01: And it is something different,
39:19
SPEAKER_01: like you say,
39:20
SPEAKER_01: because,
39:20
SPEAKER_01: you know,
39:21
SPEAKER_01: when you mentioned sci-fi and fantasy and so on,
39:24
SPEAKER_01: uh,
39:24
SPEAKER_01: these books are notoriously big because it takes,
39:27
SPEAKER_01: you know,
39:27
a lot of that is about world building and it takes a lot of
39:31
space to build a world.
39:32
SPEAKER_01: Right.
39:33
SPEAKER_01: Um, and a lot of that is, is descriptive, uh,
39:37
SPEAKER_01: And of course,
39:38
SPEAKER_01: characterization,
39:39
SPEAKER_01: but,
39:39
SPEAKER_01: you know,
39:39
I watched someone like Brandon Sanderson who just plunks down
39:43
these juggernauts,
39:45
SPEAKER_01: you know,
39:45
SPEAKER_01: one after another.
39:47
And I have friends in my life who are huge Sanderson fans and
39:51
they have declaimed
39:54
SPEAKER_01: to me about the honors of Sanderson.
39:58
SPEAKER_01: I have no opinion at all because I've never read any of his stuff.
40:02
SPEAKER_01: I have, you know, I'm impressed.
40:05
SPEAKER_01: but I do think that's, it's something different.
40:08
SPEAKER_01: Uh,
40:08
SPEAKER_01: when you switch over to something that's specifically literary,
40:12
because it's usually less time spent world building than sort
40:17
of grappling with some,
40:21
SPEAKER_01: something that's usually butting up against the ineffable,
40:25
SPEAKER_01: right?
40:25
SPEAKER_01: So where be that grappling with mortality, with consciousness, uh,
40:34
in in more of a philosophical way so obviously i'm a huge uh
40:39
black mirror fan and
40:40
so black mirror you know takes on these huge topics uh and
40:45
creates these really
40:47
engaging uh and sometimes like ethically and morally
40:51
compromising to such a
40:52
delicious degree uh these little episodes right but there's
40:56
something different
40:58
SPEAKER_01: with the books that we're talking about.
41:00
So they force you to live with them for a long time and
41:06
continue to force you to
41:09
SPEAKER_01: grapple with something that seems just out of reach of explanation,
41:15
SPEAKER_01: right?
41:16
So a lot of the time in these books is,
41:21
I think,
41:21
spent with the author battling the muse,
41:26
right?
41:27
uh you know jacob wrestling the angel and the hip getting
41:32
knocked out of joint is
41:33
the published book that we all get to read right and i think
41:39
that's as best as i
41:41
can explain it is that it's going to force me to wrestle with
41:48
something that almost
41:49
SPEAKER_01: defies
41:53
SPEAKER_01: being put into language.
41:54
SPEAKER_01: But nonetheless, we're going to try our best.
41:58
And that's where I think someone like a William Gass exceeds
42:02
exceptionally well.
42:04
SPEAKER_01: I love that.
42:04
SPEAKER_01: There's a bunch of words.
42:06
SPEAKER_03: You're going to make me do it.
42:06
I was going to hold off and not read this passage for the 15th
42:09
time on our podcast,
42:11
SPEAKER_03: but I'm going to anyways.
42:12
The part from 2666 where he's talking about the pharmacist and
42:16
he's comparing the minor works.
42:18
SPEAKER_03: So I won't read the whole thing,
42:19
SPEAKER_03: but he tying into what you were just saying,
42:24
SPEAKER_03: he talks about the passage here.
42:29
Now even bookish pharmacists are afraid to take on the great
42:31
imperfect torrential works,
42:33
SPEAKER_03: books that blaze a path into the unknown.
42:35
They choose the perfect exercises of the great masters,
42:38
or what amounts to the same thing.
42:40
They want to watch the great masters spar,
42:42
but they have no interest in real combat.
42:44
SPEAKER_03: When the great masters struggle against that something,
42:47
SPEAKER_03: that something that terrifies us all,
42:49
that something that cows us and spurs us on amid blood and
42:53
mortal wounds and stench.
42:55
SPEAKER_03: And every time, like that's one of my favorite passages ever.
42:58
And as you were saying that,
42:59
I was like,
42:59
there's no way I can't mention it.
43:01
SPEAKER_03: Cause I do think that that.
43:02
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
43:02
SPEAKER_03: That's it.
43:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
43:04
SPEAKER_01: Natasha Wimmer.
43:05
SPEAKER_01: I'm presuming that's Natasha Wimmer's translation.
43:09
SPEAKER_01: She captured it beautifully.
43:11
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, from, from Bologna.
43:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
43:15
SPEAKER_01: And,
43:15
SPEAKER_01: you know,
43:15
SPEAKER_01: Faust,
43:17
SPEAKER_01: Faust that I just finished this morning is,
43:19
SPEAKER_01: you know,
43:19
SPEAKER_01: it's a lot about,
43:21
SPEAKER_01: we open up on Faust just,
43:26
SPEAKER_01: sort of at his wit's end,
43:28
SPEAKER_01: almost like the teacher in Ecclesiastes,
43:32
just that despair that you've kind of read through everything
43:38
and you've amassed
43:40
SPEAKER_01: all the knowledge of the world,
43:42
SPEAKER_01: but yet there's still something that leaves you totally unsatisfied.
43:47
And that's when it starts to delve into this crazy mixture of
43:51
alchemy and mythology
43:52
SPEAKER_01: and the occult.
43:55
and everything that will finally culminate on the witch's night,
43:59
Volperges Nacht.
44:01
And what that's getting at is,
44:03
I think there is something mystical about it.
44:06
There's something that's rooted in Jewish Kabbalah and the idea
44:13
of a forbidden
44:15
SPEAKER_01: language or the right combination of words to unlock
44:22
something that we've never seen before you know and i think
44:25
that i think there's
44:26
something of all that mixed into our draw into the appeal
44:32
because i do have this
44:33
feeling every time i find out about a new big book uh where and
44:39
you know i've got
44:39
to get my hands on it there's almost something within me i
44:43
think that thinks okay
44:46
SPEAKER_01: this is probably the one, right?
44:49
SPEAKER_01: Like this is probably,
44:50
this one is the one where the right combination of words have
44:55
been put together and
44:56
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to unlock this forbidden knowledge.
44:59
SPEAKER_01: You know, it goes back to Adam and Eve eating of the fruit.
45:02
SPEAKER_01: Like,
45:02
SPEAKER_01: you know,
45:02
SPEAKER_01: this might be the apple from the tree of knowledge,
45:06
SPEAKER_01: you know,
45:07
SPEAKER_01: and we'll become godlike.
45:09
And of course,
45:09
if that were to happen,
45:10
you know,
45:12
all of these myths also warn us
45:16
SPEAKER_01: which, which makes it so great.
45:17
SPEAKER_01: But I think that I really do think there is like a,
45:20
SPEAKER_01: a,
45:20
SPEAKER_01: almost a mystical aspect to it,
45:22
SPEAKER_01: even for people who,
45:24
SPEAKER_01: uh,
45:24
SPEAKER_01: you know,
45:25
SPEAKER_01: are,
45:25
SPEAKER_01: are hardline materialists.
45:27
SPEAKER_01: Um,
45:28
I think there is something cause they're all coming out of that
45:31
tradition of,
45:33
SPEAKER_01: you know,
45:34
SPEAKER_01: commentaries and grappling with,
45:37
SPEAKER_01: uh,
45:38
SPEAKER_01: the,
45:38
SPEAKER_01: if with immortality,
45:40
SPEAKER_01: with knowledge,
45:42
SPEAKER_01: with unlocking secret knowledge that's there within our consciousness,
45:46
SPEAKER_01: if only we could utter the right combination of words,
45:49
SPEAKER_01: you know,
45:50
SPEAKER_01: it's all,
45:51
SPEAKER_01: all of these big books ultimately stem from that tradition.
45:54
I mean,
45:55
a lot of the very,
45:56
very early ones were written by,
45:57
uh,
45:59
monks,
46:01
uh,
46:01
or,
46:01
or priests.
46:03
SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, I've got, uh, Rob lay in mind.
46:06
SPEAKER_01: Um,
46:07
SPEAKER_01: I think there is something of that.
46:08
SPEAKER_01: It's like, this is going to be the one.
46:11
SPEAKER_01: When I'm done with this new big book,
46:13
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to have unlocked a secret that I've never known before.
46:19
SPEAKER_00: I love that.
46:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's very true.
46:20
SPEAKER_01: Very true.
46:21
SPEAKER_00: Have you been reading Shot and Throw by Michael Lentz's big book?
46:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
46:30
SPEAKER_00: That takes me to so much that's going on there.
46:33
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I've been Max Lawton's translations coming out later on.
46:37
For listeners to know,
46:38
we'll be having an episode with Max to talk about here in a few months.
46:44
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I love how you talk about all of that.
46:47
SPEAKER_00: There's a difference then in a way between just,
46:50
SPEAKER_00: and I know we're talking in semantics a little bit,
46:54
SPEAKER_00: but just a long book that happens to be long.
46:57
SPEAKER_00: And the big book that pulls on all of this.
47:02
SPEAKER_00: And that's not,
47:03
SPEAKER_00: you know,
47:05
I don't want to sound like I'm discounting the long book
47:09
because there's a sense of
47:12
SPEAKER_00: being prepared for these projects.
47:16
SPEAKER_00: You know,
47:17
SPEAKER_00: as a kid,
47:18
SPEAKER_00: I remember thinking someday I'll be able to read those big books,
47:21
SPEAKER_00: but not today.
47:22
SPEAKER_00: So when did that crack?
47:23
SPEAKER_00: You know, what finally made it so that I was able to go
47:27
SPEAKER_00: I actually think today might be the day I start one of those.
47:29
But I remember finally picking out The Sword of Shannara,
47:34
the Terry Brooks fantasy.
47:36
And I remember it is 726 pages because I had that in my sights
47:43
the whole time that
47:44
SPEAKER_00: I was reading it.
47:44
And I still remember going to visit my brother and being
47:50
relatively close to the
47:51
SPEAKER_00: end and thinking it's time for me to go finish it.
47:52
SPEAKER_00: So while everyone else was doing something
47:55
SPEAKER_00: I went into one of the back rooms and got to that page 726.
47:59
And there was something that unlocked that,
48:01
Hey,
48:01
I'm capable of the duration.
48:03
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm capable of enduring this.
48:06
SPEAKER_00: And then eventually I've told Paul this before,
48:09
SPEAKER_00: but I still remember when one day I was at this,
48:13
SPEAKER_00: not even a bookstore,
48:13
it was a craft store that happened to have little trade
48:16
paperbacks of classics,
48:17
SPEAKER_00: you know,
48:18
SPEAKER_00: around in places.
48:19
SPEAKER_00: And there was the Brothers Karamazov in that purple signet classics.
48:24
And thinking,
48:27
I'm just going to buy this and I'm going to start it today.
48:30
And and realizing I could do it,
48:32
you know,
48:32
that there was some I could do this.
48:34
SPEAKER_00: It wasn't,
48:35
SPEAKER_00: you know,
48:36
SPEAKER_00: to an extent,
48:36
something had been unlocked that allowed me the permission to
48:40
go on and maybe start
48:41
SPEAKER_00: to seek.
48:43
SPEAKER_00: And I like how you put it, Chris, that forbidden knowledge to an extent.
48:46
It gave me permission to take that journey,
48:50
regardless of what I might find.
48:52
I'm so glad you mentioned that because that was something I've
48:54
been thinking about
48:55
SPEAKER_03: even before,
48:55
SPEAKER_03: but especially during our conversation is when Chris was bringing up,
48:59
SPEAKER_03: when you were both bringing up those fantasy books is,
49:01
SPEAKER_03: it may not be the same thing,
49:02
SPEAKER_03: but exactly what you were saying,
49:03
SPEAKER_03: I feel like it's a ramp.
49:04
And like you said,
49:05
it gives you that confidence and that permission if you need it.
49:08
SPEAKER_03: Because
49:09
SPEAKER_03: like you said, the fantasy background.
49:10
SPEAKER_03: And then I was going to bring up,
49:11
SPEAKER_03: you know,
49:12
SPEAKER_03: during my formative years,
49:13
SPEAKER_03: I brought him up several times,
49:14
SPEAKER_03: but Stephen King,
49:15
SPEAKER_03: you know,
49:15
SPEAKER_03: just tackling it or the stand for me.
49:19
SPEAKER_03: I lived in those books.
49:20
SPEAKER_03: I mean, and at that age, especially, I mean, I was so immersed.
49:23
SPEAKER_00: You haven't left him.
49:24
SPEAKER_00: No, I haven't.
49:25
SPEAKER_00: In a way, you know, they are part of, they are part of a part of you.
49:30
SPEAKER_03: Oh, absolutely.
49:30
They're pillars of me as a person and a reader because of that
49:34
time and reading
49:34
them at 2am and like being horrified and mesmerized and have to
49:38
keep going.
49:39
SPEAKER_03: But like you said,
49:39
SPEAKER_03: whatever Stephen King,
49:41
SPEAKER_03: you know,
49:42
SPEAKER_03: it or the stand is 1300 pages or whatever it is.
49:45
SPEAKER_03: I mean, just realizing at a formative age that
49:48
SPEAKER_03: you're capable of doing it,
49:50
SPEAKER_03: and just the idea of what all can be involved in a book like that,
49:54
all these twists and turns and multiple characters and
49:57
bagginess and probably
49:59
SPEAKER_03: unnecessary parts that when you're finished,
50:02
SPEAKER_03: though,
50:02
SPEAKER_03: there's still like you have lived through this experience.
50:04
I'm so glad you mentioned that because I think that's really
50:07
important to note,
50:08
even if
50:09
SPEAKER_03: in retrospect,
50:10
they may not qualify in some ways for like what we would
50:13
consider now to be a truly
50:15
SPEAKER_03: big book in every sense that Chris was talking about.
50:17
I do think that there's stepping stones along the way that do
50:20
help us get here too.
50:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for sure.
50:23
SPEAKER_01: I love,
50:24
SPEAKER_01: I love the story,
50:26
SPEAKER_01: uh,
50:26
SPEAKER_01: about seeing,
50:29
SPEAKER_01: seeing,
50:29
SPEAKER_01: visually seeing the big imposing book,
50:33
SPEAKER_01: uh,
50:33
SPEAKER_01: it's almost like that tree in the garden.
50:35
SPEAKER_01: Right.
50:36
SPEAKER_01: And, uh,
50:38
SPEAKER_01: You know,
50:38
SPEAKER_01: just in a completely like logical and no duh sense,
50:45
SPEAKER_01: you know,
50:46
SPEAKER_01: I'm going back to my maternal grandmother's house in Silver Spring,
50:55
SPEAKER_01: Maryland,
50:56
SPEAKER_01: growing up.
50:58
SPEAKER_01: We had names for the different rooms in the house.
51:02
SPEAKER_01: And one of them was painted blue.
51:03
And so it was called the Blue Room because we're very creative
51:07
in our naming.
51:08
And the Blue Room had this one little shelf of books,
51:13
probably like four tiers,
51:15
right?
51:16
And they were mostly little paperbacks that my grandmother
51:20
liked to pull out and read at night.
51:22
SPEAKER_01: But there was this one.
51:25
SPEAKER_01: And because of its size, because of its stature, you couldn't not see it.
51:30
SPEAKER_01: It was the first thing you saw.
51:32
SPEAKER_01: Now, what's funny is that this is probably, you know,
51:38
1989 1990 that i'm talking about and that one book here i am
51:44
i'm six seven years
51:46
old uh and and we spent a lot of time at that house and i slept
51:50
in the blue room uh
51:52
all very often uh and i would always see that one big book and
51:59
in my memory at
52:00
least it's right in the dead center of the whole thing i'm sure
52:03
that's not true
52:04
SPEAKER_01: But,
52:05
SPEAKER_01: you know,
52:05
SPEAKER_01: and there's this angelic light coming in and highlighting,
52:08
SPEAKER_01: just illuminating just this one spine.
52:10
SPEAKER_01: But you know what it was, is it was Shogun.
52:14
SPEAKER_01: Now the hit Hulu miniseries, you know, is it James Clavel?
52:22
SPEAKER_01: Not Stanley Clavel.
52:23
SPEAKER_01: I might be thinking of the philosopher Stanley Clavel or something.
52:26
SPEAKER_01: But anyway, yeah, okay, James.
52:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so that's what it was.
52:29
SPEAKER_01: It was actually Shogun.
52:30
SPEAKER_01: And I remember it had this,
52:32
SPEAKER_01: you know,
52:32
SPEAKER_01: samurai sword on the side of it with these tassels hanging from it.
52:36
SPEAKER_01: And it just stood.
52:38
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it stood out to me.
52:40
SPEAKER_01: And this is when I'm in my hardcore Calvin and Hobbes phase.
52:44
SPEAKER_01: Right.
52:44
SPEAKER_01: So Calvin and Hobbes, these comic strips, that's my speed at this time.
52:48
SPEAKER_01: Like I did not read books quite yet.
52:52
SPEAKER_01: I was right on the cusp and it may very well have been in Shogun.
52:56
SPEAKER_01: and seeing it there because there was just something about it.
52:59
So the no dove,
53:00
you know,
53:02
seeing it there,
53:02
it's almost like it's beckoning us,
53:04
challenging us.
53:05
Like it's almost like it's shouldering every other book on the
53:09
shelf aside and
53:11
SPEAKER_01: saying like,
53:12
SPEAKER_01: here I am,
53:13
SPEAKER_01: notice me,
53:14
SPEAKER_01: you know,
53:15
SPEAKER_01: I've got something,
53:17
but you're that moment when you cross over and you actually
53:21
open the book,
53:22
SPEAKER_01: not just to flip through it,
53:25
SPEAKER_01: But to actually sit down and grapple with it and put in the time,
53:29
SPEAKER_01: there is this sense of like this crossing over.
53:32
SPEAKER_01: Right.
53:33
By the way,
53:34
Tom's Crossing coming up later this year by Mark Z.
53:38
Danielewski.
53:39
SPEAKER_01: It's going to be over a thousand pages.
53:42
SPEAKER_01: It uses the character from The Familiar, which sadly got canceled.
53:46
SPEAKER_01: Um,
53:46
SPEAKER_01: anyway,
53:47
SPEAKER_01: uh,
53:47
SPEAKER_01: not canceled by cancel culture,
53:49
SPEAKER_01: by the way,
53:49
SPEAKER_01: but,
53:49
SPEAKER_01: uh,
53:50
SPEAKER_01: and I said canceled because it was set up like a,
53:52
SPEAKER_01: uh,
53:52
SPEAKER_01: like a Netflix show.
53:53
It had like,
53:54
it was going to have seasons and episodes and stuff like that.
53:56
SPEAKER_01: So not cancel culture canceled.
53:58
SPEAKER_01: Um,
53:59
SPEAKER_01: I can't remember where I was going with any of that,
54:02
SPEAKER_01: but yeah,
54:02
SPEAKER_01: it was like,
54:04
SPEAKER_01: I knew at that moment,
54:05
SPEAKER_01: like the big books were beckoning,
54:08
SPEAKER_01: I guess is all I'm trying to say.
54:10
SPEAKER_03: No, I love that.
54:12
SPEAKER_03: I know we need to get on to our actual books,
54:15
SPEAKER_03: but I'll just say that the Shogun,
54:17
SPEAKER_03: the James Clavel at the bookstore now,
54:19
SPEAKER_03: there's this big,
54:20
SPEAKER_00: huge edition that's come out.
54:23
SPEAKER_03: Oh, yeah.
54:23
SPEAKER_03: And it's in this hardback.
54:25
SPEAKER_03: It has kind of the Hulu art, which is gorgeous.
54:28
And so it's interesting to see a book like that having a bit of
54:31
a renaissance.
54:32
SPEAKER_03: I mean, obviously spurred by the show, but it's interesting.
54:35
SPEAKER_03: It continues to have...
54:37
SPEAKER_03: that pole and that epic part of it,
54:40
SPEAKER_03: I think is,
54:40
is a big part of why some of those books continue to kind of
54:43
exist in the zeitgeist.
54:45
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
54:46
SPEAKER_01: And the funny thing is I'd never read it.
54:47
SPEAKER_01: I've still not read it,
54:50
SPEAKER_01: but maybe one day,
54:51
SPEAKER_01: but then there's a part of me that wants that memory to sort of live on,
54:54
SPEAKER_01: you know?
54:54
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
54:56
SPEAKER_00: It's still,
54:57
SPEAKER_00: it's still a bit of a forbidden knowledge,
54:59
SPEAKER_00: you know,
55:01
SPEAKER_00: sometimes you got to save that sense of wonder.
55:03
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
55:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
55:04
SPEAKER_01: And I was listening to your recent episode.
55:08
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I can't remember her name.
55:11
SPEAKER_01: Poet.
55:12
SPEAKER_01: Very recent.
55:14
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
55:16
SPEAKER_00: Elisa Gabbard.
55:17
SPEAKER_01: That's it.
55:18
SPEAKER_01: And yeah.
55:19
SPEAKER_01: And you guys were talking about your list of books you'll finally get to.
55:25
SPEAKER_01: Like you're saving them from yourself kind of thing,
55:28
SPEAKER_01: as I'm doing with Women and Men by Joseph McElroy.
55:31
SPEAKER_01: Um,
55:32
SPEAKER_01: I am like staving off cause I do not want,
55:36
SPEAKER_01: it's like the,
55:37
SPEAKER_01: I was the type of person,
55:38
SPEAKER_01: kid who didn't go for the very,
55:40
SPEAKER_01: the biggest present on Christmas morning.
55:42
I saved,
55:42
I would deliberately push that aside and hold off as long as I
55:47
possibly could.
55:47
SPEAKER_01: So two things that I always say,
55:49
SPEAKER_01: just by the way,
55:50
SPEAKER_01: to add to the topic is I love deeply committed,
55:54
SPEAKER_01: long relationships.
55:57
SPEAKER_01: And I love, uh,
56:00
SPEAKER_01: sustained,
56:01
SPEAKER_01: I don't want to say delayed gratification,
56:05
SPEAKER_01: but it's almost like sustained gratification with these big books.
56:09
SPEAKER_01: So those two kind of traits combined,
56:13
SPEAKER_01: you know,
56:13
SPEAKER_01: really,
56:14
SPEAKER_01: you know,
56:15
SPEAKER_01: the big books cater well to them.
56:17
SPEAKER_01: And there is a difference between just a long book and a big book.
56:21
SPEAKER_01: I like that.
56:22
SPEAKER_01: And that's obviously just to echo what you said,
56:24
SPEAKER_01: not to downplay a lot of the kind of world building and long
56:29
books because it's a completely different kind of craft and
56:34
people who do it well
56:37
SPEAKER_01: are really,
56:38
SPEAKER_01: it's really impressive.
56:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, on Instagram, on that January 1st when we were starting Middlemarch
56:45
I realized that I had a stack of big books because that was
56:50
also the day that I
56:50
SPEAKER_00: started Swan's Way.
56:54
I was a few hundred pages into the latest Brandon Sanderson book,
56:58
which is like 1,300 pages.
57:00
SPEAKER_00: What else?
57:00
SPEAKER_00: Oh,
57:01
SPEAKER_00: and Lies and Sorcery,
57:02
SPEAKER_00: Elsa Morante's Lies and Sorcery in Jenny McPhee's fantastic translation.
57:08
All of those were starting at that same time,
57:10
and there may have even been one more.
57:12
SPEAKER_03: I can't remember.
57:14
SPEAKER_00: Miss Macintosh, my darling.
57:15
SPEAKER_00: Oh, wow.
57:16
SPEAKER_00: And so I took a picture of what am I reading today, you know?
57:20
SPEAKER_00: Oh, my.
57:21
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
57:22
SPEAKER_00: I have finished all of them except for Miss Macintosh,
57:25
SPEAKER_00: my darling,
57:25
SPEAKER_00: which I just absolutely adore.
57:28
SPEAKER_00: I have watched your video on that already.
57:30
SPEAKER_00: I watched it when you first released it, Chris.
57:32
SPEAKER_00: And I'm so excited to watch it again when I'm done with that book.
57:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
57:39
SPEAKER_00: Speaking of the Blue Room,
57:40
SPEAKER_00: by the way,
57:41
SPEAKER_00: Paul,
57:42
I think that our copy of Hannah Orstevik's The Blue Room is
57:46
arriving today,
57:46
SPEAKER_00: so I'll get that to you soon.
57:48
SPEAKER_00: Exciting.
57:48
SPEAKER_00: See, that was a nice segment.
57:50
SPEAKER_00: I didn't know it was about your grandma's house, Chris.
57:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I had heard that they were taking that on.
57:56
SPEAKER_01: I'm glad to hear the book finally came out,
57:58
SPEAKER_01: so I can go back and read about myself staring at Shogun.
58:03
SPEAKER_00: Well,
58:04
SPEAKER_00: I think as we get to our specific books,
58:06
we'll be able to continue to explore some of these side issues
58:10
and topics with the
58:11
SPEAKER_00: big books.
58:12
SPEAKER_00: But we do have a quick tangent for a giveaway.
58:16
Paul,
58:16
do you want to remind listeners what we're,
58:19
you know,
58:19
we're not giving it away.
58:20
SPEAKER_00: We just happen to be hosting a special giveaway.
58:23
SPEAKER_00: But do you want to remind listeners what that is?
58:26
SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
58:26
SPEAKER_03: during our recent episode,
58:28
SPEAKER_03: our latest publisher episode,
58:29
we highlighted the amazing Charco Press and they were kind
58:33
enough to offer one of
58:35
SPEAKER_03: their book bundles,
58:37
SPEAKER_03: which are always amazing.
58:38
SPEAKER_03: I've been a big fan of them for years and subscribe whenever I can.
58:42
SPEAKER_03: So yeah, we...
58:44
Trevor trotted out his famed acting skills and gave some clues
58:49
about a book.
58:51
SPEAKER_03: And we asked people to kind of guess which book he was talking about.
58:54
SPEAKER_03: And we got a lot of entries this time around.
58:58
SPEAKER_00: And the prize is... Every one of them correct, too.
59:00
SPEAKER_00: Just so you know.
59:01
SPEAKER_00: Every one of them.
59:01
SPEAKER_00: No one sent in a dud.
59:03
SPEAKER_03: I think, again, that's all due to your mad skills.
59:07
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
59:09
SPEAKER_03: No, but yeah.
59:09
SPEAKER_03: And so we're going to unveil who wins the Charco 2025 bundle.
59:16
SPEAKER_00: All right.
59:17
SPEAKER_00: And totally random.
59:18
The way that I do this,
59:20
listeners,
59:20
is I just,
59:21
as things come in,
59:22
I put them in a spreadsheet.
59:24
SPEAKER_00: And so they're numbered.
59:25
SPEAKER_00: And then I scramble the numbers and I go to random.org and hit the,
59:29
SPEAKER_00: you know,
59:30
SPEAKER_00: how many numbers do we have?
59:31
SPEAKER_00: And the winners.
59:33
SPEAKER_00: of the Charco giveaway is Daniel Duque Estrada.
59:38
SPEAKER_00: It was on Instagram as Rosa Blanca Books, kind of a pop-up bookshop.
59:44
SPEAKER_00: And so congratulations, Daniel.
59:46
We'll be in touch to arrange all of this and get you going on
59:51
your Charco 2025 journey.
59:53
SPEAKER_00: I'm so excited for you.
59:54
I mean,
59:56
looking through his Instagram,
59:57
he probably knows about Charco already.
1:00:01
SPEAKER_00: He sells great books at his pop-up bookstore.
1:00:03
SPEAKER_00: Nice.
1:00:04
SPEAKER_03: Well, congratulations.
1:00:05
SPEAKER_03: That's amazing.
1:00:06
SPEAKER_03: And I say it every time,
1:00:07
but I am always blown away by the generosity of all of these
1:00:10
small publishers and
1:00:12
SPEAKER_03: the giveaways and the different ways that they engage with the community.
1:00:15
SPEAKER_03: So thank you to Charco for being so willing to do that.
1:00:17
SPEAKER_03: And yeah, congratulations.
1:00:18
SPEAKER_03: That's exciting.
1:00:20
SPEAKER_00: All right.
1:00:20
SPEAKER_00: You ready for the next one?
1:00:22
SPEAKER_00: I've got this ready.
1:00:24
SPEAKER_00: And I did make it a little bit, you know, a little bit big.
1:00:27
SPEAKER_00: Listeners, what book is this yoga instructor talking about?
1:00:34
SPEAKER_00: And how does it relate to our episode?
1:00:36
You don't have to answer that last part,
1:00:37
but you get the bonus cool points.
1:00:39
But just send us either an email or a DM on Instagram or some
1:00:43
people have been
1:00:44
SPEAKER_00: sending them on Discord.
1:00:45
SPEAKER_00: That's totally fine.
1:00:47
SPEAKER_00: However,
1:00:47
you can reach out to us other than please don't do it publicly
1:00:51
like on Blue Sky
1:00:51
with just an at that could spoil it for people who are trying
1:00:55
to figure out what
1:00:57
SPEAKER_00: book this is about.
1:00:59
All right,
1:01:00
Paul and Chris,
1:01:01
you guys are welcome to go through the routine.
1:01:05
SPEAKER_00: Take a little bit of a stretching break.
1:01:07
I'm glad you're so comfortable being the actor in this scenario
1:01:09
because every time
1:01:10
SPEAKER_03: I get sweaty palms just thinking about doing this.
1:01:12
SPEAKER_03: Wait, are you about to act out being a yoga instructor?
1:01:16
SPEAKER_00: Well, with my voice.
1:01:17
SPEAKER_00: I'm not going to get back in my chair.
1:01:20
SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay.
1:01:21
SPEAKER_01: I didn't know if I needed to go put a sweatband on.
1:01:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yoga mats out, everybody.
1:01:26
SPEAKER_00: All right, here we go.
1:01:29
SPEAKER_00: Namaste, my friends.
1:01:33
SPEAKER_00: Let's begin by settling into a comfortable seated position.
1:01:38
SPEAKER_00: Close your eyes.
1:01:39
SPEAKER_00: Take a deep breath.
1:01:40
SPEAKER_00: Inhale.
1:01:43
SPEAKER_00: Exhale.
1:01:44
SPEAKER_00: Let's move through the contradictions of our minds today,
1:01:48
SPEAKER_00: just like we move through this practice.
1:01:51
SPEAKER_00: Picture three siblings, each on a different path.
1:01:56
The first is a fire driven by passion,
1:01:59
always reaching for something just out of reach.
1:02:03
inhale stretch your arms overhead feel the fire the second is a
1:02:11
thinker believing
1:02:12
the answer lies in the mind he controls questions and knows but
1:02:18
in his certainty
1:02:19
he's lost the ability to feel to surrender to life's mysteries
1:02:24
bring your palms
1:02:25
SPEAKER_00: together in front of your heart feel the tension between mind and spirit
1:02:31
The youngest seeks a truth beyond body and mind,
1:02:36
but even he must confront his own shadows.
1:02:39
SPEAKER_00: Reach forward in a forward fold.
1:02:42
Release the weight you carry,
1:02:44
just as he must release his burden of doubt.
1:02:49
SPEAKER_00: And then a figure lurks in the shadows,
1:02:51
SPEAKER_00: influencing from silence,
1:02:54
SPEAKER_00: seeking release in a way that disrupts balance.
1:02:57
SPEAKER_00: Feel the tension in your body like a coil ready to snap.
1:03:02
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes those who seem insignificant shape the course of our lives.
1:03:07
SPEAKER_00: Life has not been kind to these siblings.
1:03:10
SPEAKER_00: Their father,
1:03:11
SPEAKER_00: a man consumed by excess,
1:03:13
SPEAKER_00: sowed the seeds of their suffering with his indulgences,
1:03:16
SPEAKER_00: yet he never found peace.
1:03:19
SPEAKER_00: We must be mindful not to let our own desires control us.
1:03:24
SPEAKER_00: Press into downward dog.
1:03:26
Find your center,
1:03:27
even when the world around you feels like it's spinning out of control.
1:03:33
SPEAKER_00: A terrible act casts a shadow.
1:03:35
SPEAKER_00: A life is taken leading them to a trial not just of law, but spirit.
1:03:40
SPEAKER_00: Come into warrior pose.
1:03:42
SPEAKER_00: Feel the weight on your shoulders.
1:03:44
SPEAKER_00: Can you carry it with grace even when the world expects you to falter?
1:03:50
SPEAKER_00: By embracing their darkness, these siblings move forward.
1:03:54
SPEAKER_00: We all hold both light and shadow.
1:03:57
SPEAKER_00: Rise into mountain pose.
1:04:00
SPEAKER_00: Stand strong, grounded,
1:04:03
SPEAKER_00: knowing that without shadows we cannot fully understand the light.
1:04:09
SPEAKER_00: Take a deep breath, friends.
1:04:11
SPEAKER_00: Find peace in the contradictions as these siblings must.
1:04:14
By facing our struggles and embracing all parts of ourselves,
1:04:18
we find peace.
1:04:21
With that,
1:04:21
we finish today's practice,
1:04:24
not with answers,
1:04:26
but with a deep sense of possibility.
1:04:30
SPEAKER_00: There we are.
1:04:31
SPEAKER_00: What book is that going through?
1:04:35
SPEAKER_00: Nice.
1:04:36
SPEAKER_00: Nice.
1:04:38
SPEAKER_00: You got it.
1:04:39
SPEAKER_00: You got it, Chris.
1:04:42
SPEAKER_00: All right.
1:04:42
SPEAKER_01: So I'm in the Charco book set right now.
1:04:47
SPEAKER_01: It's Daniels.
1:04:48
SPEAKER_00: You're number one on the giveaway spreadsheet, though.
1:04:51
SPEAKER_00: You've already got your entry in.
1:04:53
SPEAKER_00: I guess I should tell listeners,
1:04:54
SPEAKER_00: DM,
1:04:55
SPEAKER_00: email,
1:04:55
or write it down on a piece of paper and show it to us when
1:04:59
we're talking to you.
1:05:00
SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
1:05:01
SPEAKER_03: There's all different ways to do it.
1:05:02
SPEAKER_03: Message in the bottle, you know, whatever.
1:05:04
SPEAKER_00: As long as it gets to us.
1:05:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:05:07
SPEAKER_00: These have been fun and I'm glad that people are getting them.
1:05:10
I am still waiting for one that's a little tricky that people don't,
1:05:14
you know,
1:05:15
SPEAKER_00: and maybe people aren't getting them who don't enter,
1:05:16
but I'm waiting for one that is tricky that people enter and
1:05:20
still get it wrong.
1:05:21
SPEAKER_00: At the same time,
1:05:22
SPEAKER_00: I want people to,
1:05:23
I want them to be somewhat clear so that we have people
1:05:26
entering and winning some,
1:05:29
SPEAKER_00: some fun books.
1:05:30
SPEAKER_00: I've actually got a stack of,
1:05:32
SPEAKER_00: of a brand new archipelago books that are,
1:05:35
SPEAKER_00: that are on the docket too,
1:05:36
SPEAKER_00: for some,
1:05:37
SPEAKER_00: some giveaways.
1:05:38
SPEAKER_00: And Paul, I know has some other things to give away.
1:05:41
SPEAKER_00: So yeah,
1:05:42
SPEAKER_00: We'll be in touch with whoever wins this one.
1:05:44
SPEAKER_00: But the way that we're going to do this,
1:05:46
SPEAKER_00: I should have looked this up right before we started,
1:05:49
SPEAKER_00: but this is coming out on May 1st.
1:05:52
SPEAKER_00: So this is our May giveaway.
1:05:55
SPEAKER_00: We will announce the winner.
1:05:57
And I think we should do this in our May 30th episode,
1:06:01
Paul,
1:06:01
even though that's still May.
1:06:04
SPEAKER_00: I think we should announce the winner and go into June.
1:06:07
SPEAKER_00: and that May 30th episode, or the May 29th episode.
1:06:11
SPEAKER_00: And so please get us any entries that you have by Friday, May 23rd.
1:06:18
SPEAKER_00: Any time of day that it is for you,
1:06:20
SPEAKER_00: we'll be ready for it,
1:06:22
SPEAKER_00: and you'll be in the drawing,
1:06:25
SPEAKER_00: and we'll figure out who gets the next prize.
1:06:31
SPEAKER_00: Good luck, everybody.
1:06:33
SPEAKER_00: All right, well, let's get to some big books that we want to talk about.
1:06:38
SPEAKER_00: Again, we do this in a little bit of a round robin pattern.
1:06:41
SPEAKER_00: And so, Chris, if you don't mind, we'll start with you.
1:06:44
If you want to share one of your big books,
1:06:46
give us some of why you chose to talk about it.
1:06:50
SPEAKER_00: And I'm sure it'll lead to some other topics.
1:06:53
SPEAKER_00: But we'll be mindful of time for listeners.
1:06:58
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
1:06:59
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, take it away.
1:07:03
SPEAKER_01: All right, so my first one is going to be Inviticum.
1:07:06
SPEAKER_01: I'm holding it up as if people can see it.
1:07:09
SPEAKER_01: We can see it, I love it.
1:07:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Inviticum by Michael Brodsky.
1:07:13
SPEAKER_01: There's all the tabs.
1:07:14
SPEAKER_01: See, that's amazing.
1:07:16
SPEAKER_01: Tab hounds.
1:07:18
SPEAKER_01: This is a little deceptive.
1:07:19
The side tabs are just the ones I had to go through because I
1:07:23
got so much out of the book.
1:07:26
SPEAKER_01: There's almost at least one tab per page.
1:07:29
SPEAKER_01: I had to go through and do separate tabs
1:07:33
SPEAKER_01: just to tab out the best of the best to condense my video down.
1:07:39
SPEAKER_01: This was my very first Michael Brodsky.
1:07:43
And I usually hold off on what is sort of perceived as a magnum
1:07:47
opus of an author's earth.
1:07:52
SPEAKER_01: But something about,
1:07:52
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:07:54
SPEAKER_01: I just said,
1:07:55
SPEAKER_01: you know what,
1:07:56
SPEAKER_01: for once,
1:07:56
SPEAKER_01: let me just start at the top of the mountain,
1:07:58
SPEAKER_01: right?
1:07:59
SPEAKER_01: And I was floored.
1:08:02
SPEAKER_01: At just the pros is,
1:08:07
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
1:08:08
SPEAKER_01: as I think I said in my video,
1:08:11
SPEAKER_01: there's a surprise or some kind of flare on every single page.
1:08:18
SPEAKER_01: And for roughly 1,200 pages, I mean, that's quite a feat.
1:08:22
SPEAKER_01: So 1,200 sprays of confetti, right?
1:08:29
SPEAKER_01: It's just pros confetti.
1:08:31
SPEAKER_01: on every page,
1:08:31
the way that Brodsky's mind works while he's occupying that
1:08:37
role of writer and kind
1:08:40
SPEAKER_01: of like what we see in Gattis,
1:08:43
SPEAKER_01: where you're almost watching the writing as it's occurring.
1:08:48
SPEAKER_01: You get that here.
1:08:49
SPEAKER_01: But I mean, it's just got this linguistic play.
1:08:54
SPEAKER_01: His mind is clearly saturated with the arts
1:09:01
especially Henry James presides over this book to a remarkable
1:09:10
degree the master as
1:09:13
it's referred and there ends up being this sort of hierarchy of
1:09:17
masters as you go
1:09:19
SPEAKER_01: through it but
1:09:20
For the sake of brevity,
1:09:23
people can go and watch the video and learn a lot more about it.
1:09:27
SPEAKER_01: But this was published, what, 2023 it was published.
1:09:35
SPEAKER_01: So it's very recent.
1:09:38
SPEAKER_01: And it's one of these where it's the result of decades of work.
1:09:43
SPEAKER_01: The author wasn't even sure anyone was going to pick it up.
1:09:48
SPEAKER_01: Um, but it was that labor of love.
1:09:50
SPEAKER_01: It was driven by vision.
1:09:52
SPEAKER_01: Uh,
1:09:53
SPEAKER_01: but I think more than anything,
1:09:56
the cognitive acrobatics and gymnastics that are going on page
1:10:05
after page after page,
1:10:06
SPEAKER_01: um,
1:10:09
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's quite a feat.
1:10:11
SPEAKER_01: And now I'm going back and rereading everything that he's put out.
1:10:16
SPEAKER_01: But that's my that's my first big one.
1:10:18
SPEAKER_01: And let me tell you, though, do not approach this breezily.
1:10:25
SPEAKER_01: Obviously, that's true with all these big books we're talking about.
1:10:27
SPEAKER_01: But this might be the big book.
1:10:31
SPEAKER_01: Uh,
1:10:32
SPEAKER_01: it,
1:10:32
SPEAKER_01: it stretched and challenged to me,
1:10:34
SPEAKER_01: uh,
1:10:36
SPEAKER_01: and pretty much reshaped my whole conception of what we mean when we say
1:10:40
SPEAKER_01: something's dense,
1:10:42
SPEAKER_01: uh,
1:10:42
SPEAKER_01: and complex.
1:10:44
SPEAKER_01: Uh,
1:10:44
SPEAKER_01: so,
1:10:44
SPEAKER_01: uh,
1:10:45
SPEAKER_01: and it just so happened,
1:10:46
SPEAKER_01: I took like three weeks off at the end of last year,
1:10:48
SPEAKER_01: uh,
1:10:49
SPEAKER_01: and,
1:10:50
SPEAKER_01: and,
1:10:50
SPEAKER_01: and read it for eight hours a day.
1:10:52
SPEAKER_01: Um,
1:10:54
SPEAKER_01: it,
1:10:54
SPEAKER_01: it,
1:10:54
SPEAKER_01: it,
1:10:54
SPEAKER_01: it's something,
1:10:55
SPEAKER_01: but it,
1:10:56
SPEAKER_01: it,
1:10:56
SPEAKER_01: it's one of those reading,
1:10:57
SPEAKER_01: a reading experience of,
1:11:00
SPEAKER_01: of a lifetime.
1:11:01
SPEAKER_01: as it says on the cover of The Dying Grass.
1:11:05
SPEAKER_00: That's awesome.
1:11:06
I do have a quick kind of follow-up question of what you were
1:11:09
just saying.
1:11:09
First off,
1:11:10
I like that you,
1:11:11
that sustained gratification that you just went for it this time.
1:11:17
SPEAKER_00: But when you say,
1:11:19
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:11:19
SPEAKER_00: don't approach this lightly,
1:11:20
SPEAKER_00: I think that that's another way,
1:11:22
SPEAKER_00: a little bit of a side topic.
1:11:24
SPEAKER_00: How do you approach some of these big books that you know
1:11:29
SPEAKER_00: Maybe and maybe if we're being honest with yourself,
1:11:31
SPEAKER_00: we're not fully prepared for,
1:11:33
SPEAKER_00: but you still want you have to get to it someday.
1:11:36
You know,
1:11:36
I'm never going to be prepared for for some of these books,
1:11:39
you know.
1:11:40
SPEAKER_00: When I read Andre's The Untranslated Review of Schattenfro,
1:11:44
I realized I don't know nearly enough to probably get through
1:11:47
page one of this book,
1:11:49
SPEAKER_00: but I still started it and have been absolutely adoring that project.
1:11:56
But how do you both prepare for this without running into the
1:12:02
issue of putting it off?
1:12:06
SPEAKER_00: what to,
1:12:06
SPEAKER_00: to some date when that probably will never come when you're like,
1:12:10
SPEAKER_00: okay,
1:12:10
SPEAKER_00: now I'm actually fully ready.
1:12:12
SPEAKER_00: I know enough to access this book.
1:12:15
SPEAKER_00: You know, what, how do we, how do we navigate that?
1:12:19
SPEAKER_03: I feel like for me, it's still a case by case.
1:12:22
SPEAKER_03: I think I do both.
1:12:23
I think there are still times where I do have those books up on
1:12:26
the shelf with that
1:12:27
SPEAKER_03: light shining down from on high and I keep saving them.
1:12:30
SPEAKER_03: We've, we've talked about that a lot.
1:12:31
SPEAKER_03: I mean, I've tried to work through that and, um,
1:12:35
SPEAKER_03: I think more and more for me,
1:12:36
SPEAKER_03: it's kind of what you just described with Shot and Froze,
1:12:38
SPEAKER_03: just diving in and learning as I go.
1:12:43
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
1:12:43
SPEAKER_03: in an ideal world,
1:12:45
SPEAKER_03: I have had those experiences like Chris just described within Vidicum,
1:12:48
SPEAKER_03: where you take an extended amount of time off and just live in that book.
1:12:52
SPEAKER_03: And that would obviously be my ideal for these types of things.
1:12:55
SPEAKER_03: But we've talked about this, Trevor.
1:12:57
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
1:12:57
SPEAKER_03: the way life works,
1:12:59
SPEAKER_03: sometimes if I did that for every one of these books I wanted to read,
1:13:01
SPEAKER_03: I would get to like...
1:13:02
SPEAKER_03: 3% of them.
1:13:03
SPEAKER_03: So I think for me,
1:13:05
SPEAKER_03: the answer is probably sometimes it's like,
1:13:06
you just have to kind of start on page one and just see where
1:13:10
it takes you.
1:13:10
SPEAKER_03: And, you know, yeah, I don't know if work along the way.
1:13:14
SPEAKER_00: I mean, cause that's how I feel about Proust.
1:13:16
I was definitely putting that off for like the ideal time in my
1:13:21
life when I felt ready to do it.
1:13:23
SPEAKER_00: And I don't think I was getting more ready necessarily.
1:13:27
SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah,
1:13:28
SPEAKER_00: reading it with some other dedicated readers,
1:13:31
SPEAKER_00: and also as I'm reading it,
1:13:33
SPEAKER_00: stopping and thinking and trying to figure out what am I doing here?
1:13:39
SPEAKER_00: What was that about?
1:13:40
Trying to avoid the sense that I'm just skimming through and
1:13:46
getting to the other side.
1:13:48
SPEAKER_00: I do feel more and more and more
1:13:51
like the reader of this book versus a wannabe,
1:13:55
even though I still feel like a wannabe.
1:13:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:13:58
SPEAKER_01: Always.
1:14:00
SPEAKER_01: That's a really good point because with these books,
1:14:05
SPEAKER_01: it can't be,
1:14:06
SPEAKER_01: it almost,
1:14:07
SPEAKER_01: it can't be about finishing them.
1:14:10
SPEAKER_01: You know,
1:14:10
SPEAKER_01: if you,
1:14:11
SPEAKER_01: if you kind of,
1:14:13
SPEAKER_01: if that's the main goal is simply to get through them,
1:14:17
SPEAKER_01: to finish them,
1:14:19
SPEAKER_01: then you're going to have a horrible time because they defy finishing.
1:14:23
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
1:14:24
SPEAKER_01: even when you've read the last page,
1:14:25
SPEAKER_01: you're not finished with these books because they have so much to say.
1:14:28
SPEAKER_01: But there are plenty of books that are made to be finished.
1:14:32
SPEAKER_01: You know, they're made to be consumed.
1:14:35
SPEAKER_01: And I know it sounds like I'm talking down,
1:14:36
SPEAKER_01: but just so everyone's clear,
1:14:39
SPEAKER_01: like my take on things,
1:14:42
SPEAKER_01: I think there's a place for everything.
1:14:44
SPEAKER_01: Right.
1:14:45
SPEAKER_01: And like my goal, my, my concern is that people be happy in life.
1:14:51
SPEAKER_01: Right.
1:14:52
SPEAKER_01: Uh,
1:14:53
SPEAKER_01: if obviously there's a whole group of people,
1:14:57
SPEAKER_01: they just want to sit down with a trashy paperback once in a while.
1:15:01
They want to take,
1:15:02
you know,
1:15:03
uh,
1:15:04
a rom-com,
1:15:06
uh,
1:15:06
to the beach that can,
1:15:09
that's easy to read.
1:15:11
in between you know making sure your child stops eating sand uh
1:15:16
and you know
1:15:17
there's a place for everything right so i also don't want to
1:15:20
come across as like
1:15:21
these are the only books that matter you know uh right for me
1:15:25
for whatever reason i
1:15:26
SPEAKER_01: got infected early on uh by gaddis
1:15:32
SPEAKER_01: Uh,
1:15:32
SPEAKER_01: and here I am,
1:15:33
SPEAKER_01: I think once you sort of taste of the fruit,
1:15:36
SPEAKER_01: you,
1:15:37
SPEAKER_01: you like keep wanting to go after it.
1:15:39
SPEAKER_01: Right.
1:15:40
SPEAKER_01: And so it's at the expense of a lot of other types of literature.
1:15:44
SPEAKER_01: So I just wanted to make, make that clear.
1:15:46
SPEAKER_01: Cause I know that there's this,
1:15:47
SPEAKER_01: there's apparently this whole,
1:15:50
SPEAKER_01: whatever culture of people who think that the big book lovers are,
1:15:55
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:15:55
SPEAKER_01: bashing people over the head.
1:15:56
SPEAKER_01: Like these are the only true, this is the only true literature.
1:15:59
And like,
1:15:59
if you're not reading these,
1:16:00
you're not really reading and all that kind of stuff.
1:16:02
SPEAKER_01: I don't think any of that's true.
1:16:03
SPEAKER_01: It's just simply what I'm drawn to.
1:16:05
SPEAKER_01: All right.
1:16:06
SPEAKER_01: And it could very well.
1:16:07
SPEAKER_01: It's just how I'm passing my how I'm choosing to pass my time.
1:16:12
SPEAKER_01: But for sure, it's not about finishing the book.
1:16:16
SPEAKER_01: And that's why I like saying living in it for a really long time.
1:16:20
SPEAKER_01: I have no clue where I was going with all that.
1:16:22
SPEAKER_01: I'm starting to get more and more erratic.
1:16:25
SPEAKER_00: Well,
1:16:25
SPEAKER_00: that particular point,
1:16:26
SPEAKER_00: though,
1:16:27
SPEAKER_00: not being about finishing the book is exceptionally important.
1:16:33
SPEAKER_00: And,
1:16:34
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:16:35
SPEAKER_00: that's what allowed me to do War and Peace finally,
1:16:40
SPEAKER_00: is I didn't start thinking about it in terms of,
1:16:44
I want to have read War and Peace so much as I want to be
1:16:47
reading War and Peace.
1:16:50
That sense of I don't need to pay so much attention to the page
1:16:56
count and where I'm
1:16:58
SPEAKER_00: at in that and how much more do I have so much as,
1:17:01
SPEAKER_00: hey,
1:17:02
SPEAKER_00: I'm chipping away at this every day.
1:17:04
SPEAKER_00: I'm thinking about it every day.
1:17:06
SPEAKER_00: I'm enjoying the sights along the way.
1:17:10
SPEAKER_00: That freed me up to start reading War and Peace
1:17:14
longer books because for years you know i've been reviewing
1:17:16
books for a long time
1:17:17
and a big book can can ruin your reading plans um yeah and and
1:17:22
you know kind of if
1:17:23
that's the only thing i'm focused on it can make it so that i i
1:17:26
couldn't i couldn't
1:17:27
do what i want to do i get a lot of books from publishers that
1:17:30
i'm very excited to
1:17:31
SPEAKER_00: read and if i didn't i would feel bad and
1:17:34
And like,
1:17:35
I'm,
1:17:35
you know,
1:17:35
not just like I'm missing out,
1:17:36
but they send it to me for a reason.
1:17:39
SPEAKER_00: And I, and I genuinely enjoy doing that.
1:17:41
SPEAKER_00: It's not a,
1:17:42
SPEAKER_00: it's not a major conflict between one or the other,
1:17:45
SPEAKER_00: but a big book coming would,
1:17:47
SPEAKER_00: would often be like,
1:17:48
SPEAKER_00: Oh,
1:17:48
SPEAKER_00: I would love to read that,
1:17:49
SPEAKER_00: but I don't have time right now.
1:17:51
SPEAKER_00: And now it's like, wait, I don't have to read it right now.
1:17:55
SPEAKER_00: I just need to be reading it.
1:17:56
SPEAKER_00: You know, I don't have to have read it immediately.
1:17:59
SPEAKER_00: I can, I can just enjoy that, that, that,
1:18:02
that motion so i really like how how you put that of it's not
1:18:06
necessarily about
1:18:08
finishing them so much as jumping in but yeah and that's the
1:18:13
it's kind of a sad
1:18:14
thing when you put it in the context of a professional book
1:18:17
reviewer though right
1:18:18
because a lot of these big books historically uh have end up
1:18:24
ended up mistreated or
1:18:27
SPEAKER_01: misrepresented
1:18:29
SPEAKER_01: misrepresented by the critical apparatus because of those deadlines,
1:18:34
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:18:36
SPEAKER_01: and,
1:18:36
SPEAKER_01: and a lot of them openly admitting it,
1:18:38
SPEAKER_01: like,
1:18:38
SPEAKER_01: look,
1:18:39
SPEAKER_01: basically saying,
1:18:40
SPEAKER_01: look,
1:18:40
SPEAKER_01: this is just too,
1:18:41
SPEAKER_01: I've got 50 books to get around to,
1:18:44
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:18:45
SPEAKER_01: and deadlines to write reviews for all of them.
1:18:47
SPEAKER_01: And now all of a sudden, you know,
1:18:48
SPEAKER_01: against the day comes through and I'm like,
1:18:50
SPEAKER_01: Oh my God,
1:18:51
SPEAKER_01: I don't have time for this,
1:18:53
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:18:53
SPEAKER_01: and I'll try.
1:18:54
SPEAKER_01: Um,
1:18:55
SPEAKER_01: it's,
1:18:56
SPEAKER_01: it's,
1:18:56
SPEAKER_01: there is something to be said about having,
1:18:59
having the time at your disposal to be reading them for however
1:19:03
long that takes.
1:19:05
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, for sure.
1:19:06
SPEAKER_03: I want to make sure,
1:19:07
SPEAKER_03: like,
1:19:07
SPEAKER_03: I know we need to get going,
1:19:08
but the other thing I just wanted to mention about all of this
1:19:11
is I think sometimes
1:19:11
SPEAKER_03: with these big,
1:19:12
SPEAKER_03: difficult books,
1:19:13
SPEAKER_03: there's an intimidation or a need to try to like
1:19:17
SPEAKER_03: solve it or understand it.
1:19:19
SPEAKER_03: And one of the things that's really helped me,
1:19:21
and I think one of the books that helped me come to this
1:19:24
realization was Ulysses
1:19:25
SPEAKER_03: when I finally decided to do that,
1:19:27
SPEAKER_03: is coming to peace with the fact that I'm never going to get it.
1:19:31
SPEAKER_03: I'm never going to understand every reference.
1:19:34
SPEAKER_03: I have the annotated book and I used it alongside, but
1:19:39
SPEAKER_03: for the first few pages,
1:19:40
SPEAKER_03: I was like looking up every reference,
1:19:42
SPEAKER_03: trying to like unpack everything.
1:19:44
SPEAKER_03: And I quickly came to the realization,
1:19:45
like this is not sustainable and it's not what I want from my
1:19:48
reading life.
1:19:49
And so I think giving yourself the permission within a
1:19:52
different book to approach
1:19:53
SPEAKER_03: it in a different way that works for you.
1:19:56
Sometimes you may want to dive into every single footnote and
1:19:59
reference and like
1:19:59
SPEAKER_03: truly quote unquote solve it.
1:20:02
SPEAKER_03: But
1:20:03
SPEAKER_03: For me,
1:20:03
SPEAKER_03: at least,
1:20:03
SPEAKER_03: and I think for a lot of people,
1:20:05
SPEAKER_03: maybe the answer is to kind of just give yourself permission.
1:20:07
SPEAKER_03: Like maybe someday,
1:20:08
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
1:20:09
I will definitely go back and reread Ulysses probably many
1:20:11
times in my life.
1:20:12
But I think just whatever experience you're having,
1:20:15
make it work for you in that time.
1:20:16
And I think that's helped me get through some of these books
1:20:18
that otherwise might
1:20:19
SPEAKER_03: have just put me off forever.
1:20:21
SPEAKER_03: Or, you know, I'm never, like you said, kind of that imposter syndrome.
1:20:25
SPEAKER_03: Trevor, I think I continually have that.
1:20:27
But I think it's okay to just kind of lean into it and just
1:20:31
enjoy it in the moment
1:20:32
SPEAKER_03: for what it is.
1:20:33
SPEAKER_02: So, yeah.
1:20:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:20:34
SPEAKER_01: That's a great point.
1:20:35
I think sometimes we put this undue pressure on ourselves to be
1:20:41
ready at any time
1:20:42
SPEAKER_01: to deliver a highly polished,
1:20:45
SPEAKER_01: uh,
1:20:45
SPEAKER_01: dissertation on these books.
1:20:49
SPEAKER_01: You know,
1:20:49
like we feel like if we don't have something brilliant to say
1:20:52
about it after we've
1:20:53
SPEAKER_01: read 300 pages,
1:20:54
SPEAKER_01: um,
1:20:55
SPEAKER_01: we put,
1:20:56
SPEAKER_01: I don't know where all that pressure comes from,
1:20:58
SPEAKER_01: but sometimes you just need to just experience it.
1:21:01
SPEAKER_01: Um,
1:21:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
1:21:04
in whatever way makes sense and take some of that pressure off
1:21:07
of yourself to be an
1:21:10
SPEAKER_01: expert or something like that.
1:21:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for sure.
1:21:14
SPEAKER_00: All right, Paul, what you got?
1:21:17
SPEAKER_03: All right.
1:21:17
So my book is 4321 by Paul Oster,
1:21:23
weighing in at 880 pages,
1:21:24
I just happened to notice.
1:21:25
SPEAKER_03: So I've had kind of an up and down.
1:21:28
SPEAKER_03: experience with Oster's books over the years.
1:21:30
Some of them have really resonated and I've loved other ones
1:21:34
have had a very
1:21:35
SPEAKER_03: different experience.
1:21:36
SPEAKER_03: And so I remember when this one came out, it was so big.
1:21:39
SPEAKER_03: And just given my past relationship with Oster, I was like, I don't know.
1:21:43
SPEAKER_03: And our friend Thomas Hoglstock,
1:21:46
SPEAKER_03: as he's known online from the readers,
1:21:48
SPEAKER_03: the podcast,
1:21:50
SPEAKER_03: was just raving about this book.
1:21:51
SPEAKER_03: And once again,
1:21:52
SPEAKER_03: I keep saying that I have this contrarian personality,
1:21:55
but I'm starting to think maybe that's a lie because maybe I am
1:21:58
just falling for
1:21:58
SPEAKER_03: everybody's hype all the time.
1:22:00
SPEAKER_03: No, people I trust, I do.
1:22:02
SPEAKER_03: And he's one of those that I definitely do.
1:22:04
SPEAKER_03: And so he won me over.
1:22:05
SPEAKER_03: I picked it up.
1:22:06
SPEAKER_03: And this book is just so fascinating.
1:22:09
In many ways,
1:22:11
it's a pretty traditional buildings don't roam on type of a structure.
1:22:16
SPEAKER_03: It is following the life of this man named Archie Ferguson.
1:22:19
But there's a twist in that it actually goes through four
1:22:23
alternate versions of his life.
1:22:25
SPEAKER_03: And it's set during the 50s and the 60s.
1:22:26
SPEAKER_03: And so...
1:22:29
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:22:30
SPEAKER_03: I don't have to get into the details of it,
1:22:31
SPEAKER_03: but basically there's four versions of him.
1:22:33
SPEAKER_03: So the chapters are divided 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 1.4, 2.1, 2.2.
1:22:40
SPEAKER_03: And so it goes through in this way.
1:22:41
And then over the course of like,
1:22:43
they all start in roughly the same place.
1:22:45
You know,
1:22:45
he's living with his Jewish middle-class parents,
1:22:49
Stanley and Rose.
1:22:50
SPEAKER_03: He has a lot of the same friends and peers as he starts out.
1:22:53
SPEAKER_03: But then as they move along different
1:22:56
branches start to form different things happen and as you read
1:23:02
along I just found
1:23:03
it incredibly compelling it seems like it could be kind of
1:23:07
tricksy in a way that
1:23:08
might turn me off a little bit to be honest but for whatever
1:23:10
reason it really
1:23:13
worked for me and I think obviously it's worked for a lot of
1:23:15
other people I think
1:23:16
it's just a really fascinating look at kind of you know the way
1:23:20
that our lives
1:23:21
SPEAKER_03: branch out and decisions or events that happen kind of
1:23:25
create these forks in our lives that we are probably not even
1:23:28
aware of most of the time.
1:23:29
SPEAKER_03: Um,
1:23:30
SPEAKER_03: but through this framework,
1:23:31
you could kind of see in real time how something changed the
1:23:36
way that his life went
1:23:37
in one relationships turned into something completely different
1:23:40
for one of his
1:23:41
alternate selves or these political events that are happening
1:23:44
in the fifties and sixties,
1:23:45
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:23:45
SPEAKER_03: impact him in different ways and those around him.
1:23:48
SPEAKER_03: So, yeah, I think it's just a
1:23:51
SPEAKER_03: a wonderful book.
1:23:51
And I was going to just read a really quick excerpt that I
1:23:54
think was like a good
1:23:56
SPEAKER_03: summary of kind of what's going on here.
1:23:58
SPEAKER_03: And it says,
1:23:59
the world as it was could never be more than a fraction of the
1:24:01
world for the real
1:24:03
SPEAKER_03: also consisted of what could have happened,
1:24:05
SPEAKER_03: but didn't that one road was no better or worse than any other road.
1:24:08
But the torment of being alive in a single body was that at any
1:24:12
given moment you
1:24:13
SPEAKER_03: had to be on one road only,
1:24:15
even though you could have been on another traveling toward an
1:24:18
altogether different place.
1:24:20
And so there's other sections like that that kind of spell it
1:24:24
out a little bit explicitly.
1:24:25
SPEAKER_03: But I think what works for me is just seeing it evolve in real time.
1:24:29
SPEAKER_03: And I don't want to get into too many spoilers,
1:24:31
but let's just say that a couple of these alternate versions of
1:24:37
him are shorter
1:24:38
SPEAKER_03: than other ones.
1:24:40
SPEAKER_03: And so it's a very fascinating look at that.
1:24:45
SPEAKER_03: And I think it was done really well.
1:24:46
SPEAKER_03: So I know it got a fair amount of buzz when it came out.
1:24:50
SPEAKER_03: And I know that Paul Auster is divisive in some ways,
1:24:52
but if anybody is interested in a big book that's just kind of
1:24:56
a mind expander,
1:24:57
SPEAKER_03: I think this one would be a great one.
1:25:01
I still haven't read it,
1:25:01
but I do remember Thomas talking about it and feeling the same thing.
1:25:06
SPEAKER_00: Here's another thing that I experience.
1:25:09
When a big book comes out,
1:25:11
I am so much more likely to be attracted to it than a little book.
1:25:17
SPEAKER_00: Even if I'm not going to pick it up.
1:25:18
I still remember the day that I went into the Borders bookstore
1:25:22
and saw against the
1:25:24
SPEAKER_00: day in its gigantic hardback form and just thinking,
1:25:29
SPEAKER_00: I want that.
1:25:32
SPEAKER_00: I ended up not buying it because I don't think I had any money that day.
1:25:38
SPEAKER_00: I loved the look of it.
1:25:40
SPEAKER_00: The book itself, because of its style, almost looks like
1:25:46
SPEAKER_00: you know, the cover and everything, like a bit of a mystery.
1:25:49
SPEAKER_00: It's just, here you go.
1:25:50
SPEAKER_00: What are you going to get?
1:25:51
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
1:25:53
SPEAKER_00: But I never felt that with some of Pynchon's more recent books.
1:25:57
SPEAKER_00: Because they're short, maybe?
1:25:59
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
1:26:00
SPEAKER_00: But that big one just pulled me in.
1:26:02
So yeah,
1:26:02
when Paul Auster put out 4-3-2-1,
1:26:05
I thought,
1:26:05
oh,
1:26:05
I need to read that.
1:26:06
SPEAKER_00: But I still have it.
1:26:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I've noticed a lot of people, when Shadow Ticket was announced,
1:26:15
SPEAKER_01: the hype went boom and spiraled, you know, spiked way up.
1:26:18
SPEAKER_01: And then all of a sudden you had everyone going, Oh, it's only 360.
1:26:21
SPEAKER_01: Oh man.
1:26:29
SPEAKER_01: But Hey, we'll take it.
1:26:31
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
1:26:31
SPEAKER_00: I, I was part, probably one of those.
1:26:33
SPEAKER_00: I think the first thing I did was see how big it was,
1:26:36
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:26:36
SPEAKER_00: it's just one of his big ones or one of the littler ones,
1:26:38
SPEAKER_00: but I am still excited.
1:26:40
SPEAKER_00: Um,
1:26:42
SPEAKER_00: But I'll go on to one that I was excited to read for a different reason.
1:26:47
This one's a little bit shorter than many of the ones that
1:26:48
we'll talk about today,
1:26:49
probably.
1:26:50
SPEAKER_00: But this is Ralph Ellison's Invisible Man.
1:26:52
SPEAKER_00: It clocks in at just around 600 pages.
1:26:56
SPEAKER_00: And it's a fantastic book about an unnamed narrator.
1:27:04
SPEAKER_00: He's a black man.
1:27:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:27:07
SPEAKER_00: trying to kind of excavate an identity almost.
1:27:10
SPEAKER_00: It's a journey book through societies and through various places,
1:27:15
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:27:15
SPEAKER_00: school,
1:27:17
SPEAKER_00: work,
1:27:19
SPEAKER_00: even rebellion,
1:27:21
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:27:21
SPEAKER_00: kind of revolutionary groups and things like that.
1:27:24
And it pulls along through these various places because it's
1:27:32
surreal as well.
1:27:33
SPEAKER_00: The reason that I was excited to read it
1:27:36
SPEAKER_00: the first time,
1:27:37
SPEAKER_00: probably got the courage to read it,
1:27:38
SPEAKER_00: is that I was taking a literature class and we read chapter one,
1:27:42
SPEAKER_00: which is the Battle Royale.
1:27:44
SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh, that blew me away.
1:27:47
It is a violent,
1:27:50
disturbing,
1:27:52
absolutely surreal,
1:27:53
dreamlike in all of these ways.
1:27:56
And yet at the same time,
1:27:57
you kind of realize it's not maybe literal,
1:28:00
but it also is.
1:28:03
SPEAKER_00: What is being described here
1:28:06
SPEAKER_00: is a way potentially at expressing some of the horrors.
1:28:11
And so I went out and bought the book and I remember taking me
1:28:15
two or three months
1:28:15
SPEAKER_00: to read because I was so intrigued.
1:28:18
SPEAKER_00: And I,
1:28:19
SPEAKER_00: and I often didn't know,
1:28:21
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:28:21
SPEAKER_00: because of the surreal way that it was going,
1:28:23
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:28:24
SPEAKER_00: just what was going on.
1:28:26
SPEAKER_00: And I thought that I'll, I'll be shorter on my other two.
1:28:29
But I want to read a little bit of the prologue to give people
1:28:32
a sense as to the
1:28:34
SPEAKER_00: writing style,
1:28:35
SPEAKER_00: but also the surrealism,
1:28:37
SPEAKER_00: but also some of the themes of the book.
1:28:40
SPEAKER_00: And this is how it begins.
1:28:41
SPEAKER_00: It says, I am an invisible man.
1:28:44
SPEAKER_00: No,
1:28:44
SPEAKER_00: I am not a spook like those who haunted Edgar Allan Poe,
1:28:48
SPEAKER_00: nor am I one of your Hollywood movie ectoplasms.
1:28:51
SPEAKER_00: I am a man of substance, of flesh and bone, fiber and liquids.
1:28:55
SPEAKER_00: And I might even be said to possess a mind.
1:28:58
SPEAKER_00: I am invisible, understand, simply because people refuse to see me.
1:29:02
SPEAKER_00: Like the bodiless heads you see sometimes in circus sideshows,
1:29:06
SPEAKER_00: it is as though I have been surrounded by mirrors of hard,
1:29:09
SPEAKER_00: distorting glass.
1:29:11
SPEAKER_00: When they approach me,
1:29:12
SPEAKER_00: they see only my surroundings,
1:29:15
SPEAKER_00: themselves,
1:29:16
SPEAKER_00: or figments of their imagination.
1:29:19
SPEAKER_00: Indeed, everything and anything except me.
1:29:23
Nor is my invisibility exactly a matter of biochemical accident
1:29:27
to my epidermis,
1:29:28
That invisibility to which I refer occurs because of a peculiar
1:29:31
disposition in the
1:29:32
SPEAKER_00: eye of those with whom I come in contact,
1:29:35
SPEAKER_00: a matter of the construction of their inner eyes,
1:29:38
SPEAKER_00: those eyes with which they look through their physical eyes upon reality.
1:29:43
SPEAKER_00: I am not complaining, nor am I protesting either.
1:29:46
SPEAKER_00: It is sometimes advantageous to be unseen,
1:29:49
SPEAKER_00: although it is most often rather wearing on the nerves.
1:29:54
SPEAKER_00: Then too, you're constantly being bumped against by those of poor vision.
1:29:58
SPEAKER_00: Or, again, you often doubt if you really exist.
1:30:01
SPEAKER_00: You wonder whether you aren't simply a phantom in other people's minds.
1:30:05
Say,
1:30:05
a figure in a nightmare,
1:30:07
which the sleeper tries with all his strength to destroy.
1:30:10
It's when you feel like this that,
1:30:12
out of resentment,
1:30:14
you begin to bump people back.
1:30:16
SPEAKER_00: And let me confess, you feel that way most of the time.
1:30:19
You ache with the need to convince yourself that you do exist
1:30:22
in the real world,
1:30:23
SPEAKER_00: that you're a part of all the sound and anguish,
1:30:26
SPEAKER_00: and you strike out with your fists,
1:30:28
SPEAKER_00: you curse,
1:30:28
SPEAKER_00: and you swear to make them recognize you.
1:30:31
SPEAKER_00: And alas, it's seldom successful.
1:30:35
SPEAKER_00: One night,
1:30:35
SPEAKER_00: I accidentally bumped into a man,
1:30:37
SPEAKER_00: and perhaps because of the near darkness,
1:30:40
SPEAKER_00: he saw me.
1:30:41
SPEAKER_00: and called me an insulting name.
1:30:43
SPEAKER_00: I sprang at him, seized his coat lapels, and demanded that he apologize.
1:30:47
SPEAKER_00: He was a tall blonde man,
1:30:49
SPEAKER_00: and as my face came close to his,
1:30:51
SPEAKER_00: he looked insolently out of his blue eyes and cursed me,
1:30:54
SPEAKER_00: his breath hot in my face as he struggled.
1:30:57
SPEAKER_00: I pulled his chin down sharp upon the crown of my head, butting him
1:31:00
SPEAKER_00: as I had seen the West Indians do,
1:31:02
SPEAKER_00: and I felt his flesh tear and his blood gush out,
1:31:06
SPEAKER_00: and I yelled,
1:31:06
SPEAKER_00: Apologize!
1:31:07
SPEAKER_00: Apologize!
1:31:08
SPEAKER_00: But he continued to curse and struggle,
1:31:10
SPEAKER_00: and I butted him again and again until he went down heavily on his knees,
1:31:14
SPEAKER_00: profusely bleeding.
1:31:15
SPEAKER_00: I kicked him repeatedly in a frenzy because he still uttered insults,
1:31:19
SPEAKER_00: though his lips were frothy with blood.
1:31:21
SPEAKER_00: Yes,
1:31:22
SPEAKER_00: I kicked him,
1:31:22
and in my outrage I got out my knife and prepared to slit his
1:31:25
throat right there
1:31:27
SPEAKER_00: beneath the lamplight in the deserted street,
1:31:29
SPEAKER_00: holding him
1:31:30
SPEAKER_00: in the collar with one hand and opening the knife with my teeth,
1:31:34
SPEAKER_00: when it occurred to me that the man had not seen me,
1:31:38
SPEAKER_00: actually,
1:31:39
SPEAKER_00: that he,
1:31:39
SPEAKER_00: as far as he knew,
1:31:41
SPEAKER_00: was in the midst of a walking nightmare.
1:31:43
SPEAKER_00: And I stopped the blade,
1:31:45
SPEAKER_00: slicing the air as I pushed him away,
1:31:47
SPEAKER_00: letting him fall back to the street.
1:31:49
SPEAKER_00: I stared at him as the lights of a car stabbed through the darkness.
1:31:53
SPEAKER_00: He lay there moaning on the asphalt, a man almost killed by a phantom.
1:31:59
SPEAKER_00: It unnerved me.
1:31:59
SPEAKER_00: I was both disgusted and ashamed.
1:32:03
SPEAKER_00: I was like a drunken man myself, wavering on weakened legs.
1:32:08
SPEAKER_00: Then I was amused.
1:32:09
Something in this man's thick head had sprung out and beaten
1:32:12
him within an inch of his life.
1:32:14
SPEAKER_00: I began to laugh at this crazy discovery.
1:32:17
SPEAKER_00: Would he have awakened at this point of death?
1:32:20
SPEAKER_00: Would death himself have freed him for wakeful living?
1:32:24
SPEAKER_00: But I didn't linger.
1:32:26
I ran away into the dark,
1:32:27
laughing so hard I feared I might rupture myself.
1:32:30
The next day I saw his picture in the daily news beneath a
1:32:33
caption stating that he
1:32:34
SPEAKER_00: had been mugged.
1:32:36
SPEAKER_00: Poor fool.
1:32:37
SPEAKER_00: Poor blind fool, I thought, with sincere compassion.
1:32:42
SPEAKER_00: Mugged by an invisible man.
1:32:46
The reason I spent so much time kind of going through that is I
1:32:49
thought it was
1:32:51
SPEAKER_00: emblematic of a big book.
1:32:53
SPEAKER_00: There's so much going on,
1:32:55
SPEAKER_00: so much movement,
1:32:56
SPEAKER_00: so many contradictions,
1:32:58
so many surprises that you have to stop and kind of think about
1:33:04
it and go back a
1:33:05
SPEAKER_00: little bit.
1:33:06
SPEAKER_00: But then you realize I'm just on page two of the prologue.
1:33:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:33:11
SPEAKER_00: Where is this thing going to take me?
1:33:13
SPEAKER_00: And what's it setting me up for?
1:33:15
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, it's an astonishing book.
1:33:20
SPEAKER_00: Disturbing, beautifully written, even in its violence and horror.
1:33:26
SPEAKER_00: I would recommend to people who are looking for a big book as well.
1:33:31
SPEAKER_00: And maybe that's a bit of a stepping stone.
1:33:34
SPEAKER_00: Again,
1:33:34
SPEAKER_00: not as long as some of the other books that we've talked about,
1:33:36
SPEAKER_00: but I realize sometimes maybe length is a little bit relative.
1:33:40
SPEAKER_00: If you're used to books that are more like 100, 200 pages, 300 pages...
1:33:45
SPEAKER_00: this is a big book.
1:33:47
SPEAKER_00: You know,
1:33:47
SPEAKER_00: if you,
1:33:48
SPEAKER_00: if you're always reading,
1:33:50
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:33:51
SPEAKER_00: some of these other books that we've brought up,
1:33:53
SPEAKER_00: maybe this is,
1:33:54
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:33:54
SPEAKER_00: a walk in the park to an extent,
1:33:55
but I don't think so because the book has those other qualities
1:33:59
of bigness.
1:34:00
SPEAKER_00: There's so much,
1:34:01
SPEAKER_00: so much in it about ideas,
1:34:03
SPEAKER_00: about place,
1:34:04
SPEAKER_00: about society and about an individual's experience of his own identity.
1:34:09
SPEAKER_00: I, you know,
1:34:11
SPEAKER_00: it made me want to reread it immediately.
1:34:14
SPEAKER_00: I almost did.
1:34:14
SPEAKER_00: I almost just said, Hey, Chris, Paul, I'm going to keep on going here.
1:34:18
SPEAKER_00: Let's just read the whole thing.
1:34:19
SPEAKER_00: All right.
1:34:23
SPEAKER_00: Well,
1:34:23
SPEAKER_00: thanks for putting up with,
1:34:25
SPEAKER_00: with my,
1:34:26
SPEAKER_00: my longer read than usual,
1:34:27
SPEAKER_00: but,
1:34:28
SPEAKER_00: but Chris,
1:34:28
SPEAKER_00: what else do you have?
1:34:30
SPEAKER_01: Oh, that was excellent.
1:34:31
And I mean,
1:34:31
that leads right into sort of the,
1:34:35
the violent and the beautiful,
1:34:37
uh,
1:34:38
Or the ugly and the beautiful rubbing shoulders I couldn't help
1:34:43
but go for the
1:34:44
SPEAKER_01: tunnel my William H.
1:34:46
SPEAKER_01: Yes,
1:34:46
of course This has the distinction now of being my longest
1:34:51
video I've ever done But
1:34:54
sort of like the way I approached war and peace I wanted it to
1:34:57
be one of those
1:34:57
videos where you could sort of read along and so it's divided
1:35:02
into me reading it
1:35:04
SPEAKER_01: and actually listening to gasp and
1:35:07
SPEAKER_01: read it on the audio book while I read the text along with him.
1:35:12
SPEAKER_01: And then I just kept,
1:35:13
I ended up keeping a journal for this one and just sort of at
1:35:17
the end of each
1:35:18
SPEAKER_01: reading session,
1:35:18
SPEAKER_01: um,
1:35:20
SPEAKER_01: I read,
1:35:20
SPEAKER_01: I split it across 31 days and read it,
1:35:23
SPEAKER_01: uh,
1:35:23
SPEAKER_01: for each of the days in March of last year.
1:35:24
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I just kind of jumped into my journal, uh,
1:35:33
SPEAKER_01: as much as I could just engaging with the, with the text directly.
1:35:37
SPEAKER_01: Um, and then turned that into the video.
1:35:40
SPEAKER_01: So you can actually, the video is divided up.
1:35:42
So such that you can read like a certain set of pages and then
1:35:45
go watch the video,
1:35:46
SPEAKER_01: uh,
1:35:47
SPEAKER_01: and so on.
1:35:48
SPEAKER_01: But, uh, this was, this is already, uh, one of my favorite books.
1:35:54
SPEAKER_01: And it's sad that it has sort of gone the way of the invisible man.
1:36:01
SPEAKER_01: Um,
1:36:02
SPEAKER_01: they've both become sort of invisible themselves.
1:36:07
SPEAKER_01: And so you can't,
1:36:08
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:36:08
I used to think that that was just an unfortunate side effect
1:36:13
of Ralph Ellison
1:36:15
SPEAKER_01: himself being sidelined,
1:36:18
SPEAKER_01: but on the slice of race.
1:36:24
SPEAKER_01: But then you've got William Gass, who was a white man writing this book.
1:36:28
SPEAKER_01: They're both similar lengths and
1:36:30
SPEAKER_01: They're both beautifully written about horrifying things.
1:36:33
SPEAKER_01: So you can't really see it like that.
1:36:35
SPEAKER_01: It's just,
1:36:36
I think some of these books and I think the invisible man and
1:36:41
the tunnel foot that
1:36:42
SPEAKER_01: fit this bill,
1:36:43
SPEAKER_01: but some of these books show up every now and then,
1:36:46
and they hold up a mirror to the way things really are to such
1:36:52
a degree that the
1:36:54
SPEAKER_01: entire publishing industry shutters in horror.
1:36:59
SPEAKER_01: Uh, and people, readers, uh, it's, it's hard stuff to grapple with.
1:37:04
SPEAKER_01: Um, and it makes you really face things.
1:37:10
SPEAKER_01: Um,
1:37:10
SPEAKER_01: and you know,
1:37:11
SPEAKER_01: with,
1:37:11
SPEAKER_01: with the tunnel,
1:37:12
SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying,
1:37:13
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:37:13
SPEAKER_01: a lot of people are like,
1:37:15
SPEAKER_01: look,
1:37:15
SPEAKER_01: I'm not,
1:37:15
SPEAKER_01: I'm not a fascist.
1:37:16
SPEAKER_01: I'm not a racist.
1:37:18
SPEAKER_01: You know,
1:37:18
SPEAKER_01: I'm,
1:37:19
SPEAKER_01: uh,
1:37:19
SPEAKER_01: I get what he's trying to get at and he's trying to show that some of us,
1:37:24
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:37:24
SPEAKER_01: uh,
1:37:25
SPEAKER_01: are this way,
1:37:25
SPEAKER_01: but I'm not like that.
1:37:26
SPEAKER_01: So I don't, I'm not going to put myself through that.
1:37:28
SPEAKER_01: Right.
1:37:28
But what,
1:37:29
what gas is getting at is what he calls a fascism of the heart.
1:37:33
SPEAKER_01: So it's different than,
1:37:36
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:37:36
SPEAKER_01: uh,
1:37:37
SPEAKER_01: like I have no,
1:37:40
SPEAKER_01: I have no,
1:37:41
SPEAKER_01: uh,
1:37:41
SPEAKER_01: drive towards like power and politics.
1:37:44
SPEAKER_01: Like literally I live my life in such a way to where I,
1:37:50
I can just carve out time for me and my family to be together
1:37:53
and that I can have
1:37:54
SPEAKER_01: the most reading time,
1:37:55
SPEAKER_01: silent,
1:37:57
SPEAKER_01: reading time possible.
1:37:59
SPEAKER_01: And even at my job, I'm in a space that I really like.
1:38:02
I have no ambitions towards conferring power of my ideas and
1:38:07
all this kind of stuff.
1:38:08
But what Gass is getting out is what,
1:38:10
like I said,
1:38:10
he calls the fascism of the heart.
1:38:12
And he really,
1:38:15
really digs into something,
1:38:17
pun intended,
1:38:20
that I think does unearth things
1:38:24
SPEAKER_01: within every single one of us,
1:38:27
SPEAKER_01: no matter what your demographic,
1:38:31
SPEAKER_01: that are hard to face,
1:38:33
SPEAKER_01: but then there's this jarring rupture because the prose is so beautiful.
1:38:41
And so I think that unfortunately,
1:38:46
because of its visceral power and its truth,
1:38:51
SPEAKER_01: it has gone the way of like a Ralph Ellison.
1:38:53
SPEAKER_01: Because to my knowledge,
1:38:54
SPEAKER_01: and I never hear that book talked about,
1:38:57
SPEAKER_01: even Dahlke struggling to bring the tunnel back to us.
1:39:02
SPEAKER_01: We thought it was going to be this year,
1:39:03
but they just recently announced it's actually going to now be
1:39:06
next April.
1:39:07
But they are going to give us a reader that includes a lot of
1:39:11
cool stuff and new
1:39:12
SPEAKER_01: critical essays and so on.
1:39:13
SPEAKER_01: So they're being generous about it.
1:39:18
SPEAKER_01: But anyway,
1:39:18
SPEAKER_01: I think both,
1:39:20
I'm really glad that you brought Ellison in because I think the
1:39:26
books are similar
1:39:27
SPEAKER_01: from two different angles and from two different types of men,
1:39:32
but holding up a mirror to the same truth that I think people
1:39:38
have a lot of trouble
1:39:39
SPEAKER_01: grappling with.
1:39:41
SPEAKER_01: But that is so important.
1:39:45
SPEAKER_03: So glad you mentioned that one.
1:39:46
SPEAKER_03: I have that one on my shelf.
1:39:48
It is definitely one of those with the light shining on it that
1:39:50
I keep wanting to do.
1:39:53
SPEAKER_03: But I was just going to make a quick aside with your videos, Chris.
1:39:56
SPEAKER_03: I know that on your most recent one for the dying grass,
1:39:59
SPEAKER_03: you said you were trying to mix in some shorter ones,
1:40:02
SPEAKER_03: which I totally respect and I get it.
1:40:05
SPEAKER_03: I do have that kind of same thing, though.
1:40:06
SPEAKER_03: I think like we were just talking about with Pinch On,
1:40:08
where I still love when you have the William Gass giant
1:40:13
eight-hour videos.
1:40:14
SPEAKER_03: Like there's something – big videos, big books.
1:40:17
SPEAKER_03: I'm just drawn to those.
1:40:18
Whichever one you do,
1:40:19
I'm fully supportive and I will be watching heavily.
1:40:22
SPEAKER_03: But yeah, I loved that you took that book and made it into what you did.
1:40:28
SPEAKER_03: I think that that's just –
1:40:30
SPEAKER_03: And if I can segue that into my next book,
1:40:34
I think one of the things about these big books is the idea of
1:40:39
there's a little bit
1:40:39
SPEAKER_03: of an obsession of the author and probably the reader,
1:40:43
SPEAKER_03: but also a little bit of like...
1:40:46
SPEAKER_03: I don't know what the right word is,
1:40:47
but like audacity maybe of an author to actually spend this
1:40:50
much time on a topic
1:40:52
SPEAKER_03: like this.
1:40:53
SPEAKER_03: And so my next book,
1:40:54
SPEAKER_03: even though I would not,
1:40:55
SPEAKER_03: I given our conversation about big books,
1:40:58
SPEAKER_03: this one's probably on the fence,
1:40:59
SPEAKER_03: but as far as physically,
1:41:01
SPEAKER_03: it definitely qualifies.
1:41:02
SPEAKER_03: And that's a suitable boy by Vikram Seth.
1:41:05
SPEAKER_03: Oh, weighing in at, you know, between 1300 and almost 1500 pages.
1:41:10
SPEAKER_03: There you go.
1:41:11
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:41:11
And Chris,
1:41:12
you've got some beautiful hardback additions to some of these books.
1:41:14
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:41:14
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:41:16
I actually got this at Atlanta Vintage Books to replace my
1:41:20
unjacketed hardcover
1:41:23
SPEAKER_01: that I had for so long.
1:41:25
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, just the audacity of an author.
1:41:28
SPEAKER_03: I was reading a little bit.
1:41:29
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
1:41:29
SPEAKER_03: I remembered some of the backstory of this one,
1:41:30
but like Vikram Seth had come out with a book that was very
1:41:34
highly acclaimed at the time,
1:41:35
SPEAKER_03: The Golden Gate.
1:41:37
And a lot of people thought he would just kind of hang out in
1:41:39
the US and continue to do that.
1:41:42
SPEAKER_03: But he went back to Delhi
1:41:45
SPEAKER_03: moved into his parents' house, and for six years...
1:41:49
SPEAKER_03: Basically,
1:41:50
SPEAKER_03: so the story goes,
1:41:51
SPEAKER_03: just basically immersed himself in writing this gigantic,
1:41:54
SPEAKER_03: audacious,
1:41:56
SPEAKER_03: huge,
1:41:56
SPEAKER_03: huge,
1:41:56
SPEAKER_03: huge book.
1:41:58
SPEAKER_03: There was a little bit I had read online.
1:41:59
SPEAKER_03: It says, six years later, the novel was finished.
1:42:02
SPEAKER_03: Indian writing was still in the thrall of Salman Rushdie,
1:42:05
but a suitable boy owed nothing to Rushdie's maniacally
1:42:07
inventive magic realism.
1:42:09
SPEAKER_03: It was written with the clarity and leisureliness,
1:42:12
SPEAKER_03: the almost forgotten confidence of the Victorian novel.
1:42:15
SPEAKER_03: It is a love story with little love and no sex.
1:42:19
SPEAKER_03: At two feet high in typescript,
1:42:21
SPEAKER_03: 1,349 pages when published in hardback,
1:42:23
SPEAKER_03: it was the longest novel ever written in the English language.
1:42:27
SPEAKER_03: And then there's a quote from Seth about it.
1:42:29
SPEAKER_03: He says, a very large novel written by a very small Indian.
1:42:34
SPEAKER_03: So,
1:42:34
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
1:42:35
SPEAKER_03: but this book is like,
1:42:38
SPEAKER_03: it is,
1:42:38
SPEAKER_03: in many ways,
1:42:39
SPEAKER_03: it's a Victorian novel in that it is just...
1:42:42
It's got tons of characters and it has tons of,
1:42:46
again,
1:42:46
that word bagginess keeps coming up.
1:42:48
SPEAKER_03: I think some people,
1:42:49
SPEAKER_03: it would drive them crazy because,
1:42:51
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:42:51
SPEAKER_03: it does go in all these directions.
1:42:53
And it's the leisureliness that they mentioned is one of the
1:42:56
things that I love
1:42:57
SPEAKER_03: about it,
1:42:57
SPEAKER_03: where it is truly a novel that you can just live in.
1:43:00
SPEAKER_03: And so, yeah, it is kind of set in post partition India.
1:43:05
follows basically four different families over the course of
1:43:08
just i think it's like
1:43:08
a year and a half or maybe two years and as you can tell by the
1:43:12
title a lot of the
1:43:13
focus is on the quest of this woman named rupa mayra to
1:43:16
basically arrange a
1:43:17
marriage for her daughter to a suitable boy and so that's you
1:43:21
know generally
1:43:22
speaking that's the core of what's going on here but obviously
1:43:25
1300 pages there's a
1:43:27
SPEAKER_03: lot more going on i mean there's
1:43:29
SPEAKER_03: all kinds of things about life in India during the,
1:43:31
SPEAKER_03: during this time,
1:43:32
SPEAKER_03: there's the conflicts between the Hindu and the Muslim populations.
1:43:36
I mean,
1:43:36
it goes on and on and it's,
1:43:37
it's just a big book in every,
1:43:40
every way.
1:43:41
SPEAKER_03: And one of the reasons that I wanted to mention it is partially,
1:43:43
I wanted to mention some big books that I haven't mentioned in
1:43:46
the course of our
1:43:47
SPEAKER_03: podcast before,
1:43:47
SPEAKER_03: because they do come up a lot.
1:43:49
SPEAKER_03: And this is one I don't think I brought up,
1:43:50
SPEAKER_03: but for me,
1:43:51
this was one of those ones where if I was going to make a
1:43:54
transition out of the
1:43:55
SPEAKER_03: Stephen King's and the fantasy books and
1:43:57
SPEAKER_03: This was one of the first,
1:43:58
SPEAKER_03: I guess what you would call like a literary big book that I ever,
1:44:01
and it may be the very first one that I can think of where I
1:44:04
finally started to
1:44:05
SPEAKER_03: realize what else could be done with big books.
1:44:09
SPEAKER_03: So yeah,
1:44:09
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
1:44:10
SPEAKER_03: I won't go on much more than that,
1:44:11
just to say that I think it is audacious and obsessive and all
1:44:17
those things that I
1:44:18
SPEAKER_03: think draw me to big books is kind of encapsulated in this book.
1:44:22
SPEAKER_01: I love that you brought up his Golden Gate
1:44:25
SPEAKER_01: too,
1:44:26
because that's a wonderful sort of novel in verse that I read
1:44:33
when I went to San
1:44:34
SPEAKER_01: Francisco for the first time back in 2021.
1:44:36
SPEAKER_01: And it really pairs awkwardly with William T.
1:44:42
Bowman's The Royal Family for a San Francisco themed reading
1:44:46
and McTeague.
1:44:49
SPEAKER_01: Nice.
1:44:50
SPEAKER_03: Awesome.
1:44:52
SPEAKER_00: Well, I'll follow you up maybe spiritually on that, Paul.
1:44:54
SPEAKER_00: I haven't read A Suitable Boy,
1:44:56
SPEAKER_00: but it sounds maybe a little bit more hopeful,
1:45:00
or at least there's a little bit more of that than maybe the
1:45:03
two books that Chris
1:45:06
SPEAKER_00: and I just talked about.
1:45:07
SPEAKER_00: Right.
1:45:07
SPEAKER_03: I think we could only go up from there.
1:45:09
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:45:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:45:11
SPEAKER_00: I've got one that could be exceptionally horrific.
1:45:15
It is The Story of a Life by Konstantin Postovsky,
1:45:19
translated by Doug Smith.
1:45:20
SPEAKER_00: It was released by NYRB Classics a couple of years ago.
1:45:24
SPEAKER_00: And again, I remember when it showed up.
1:45:26
SPEAKER_00: And it's huge.
1:45:28
SPEAKER_00: And I'm thinking, oh, I really want to read this.
1:45:31
SPEAKER_00: And realizing, then do it.
1:45:34
SPEAKER_00: You know, stop being stupid.
1:45:36
SPEAKER_00: Don't worry about when you're going to finish it.
1:45:38
SPEAKER_00: Just get going.
1:45:39
SPEAKER_00: Read a little bit of it.
1:45:40
SPEAKER_00: But this is a memoir.
1:45:42
SPEAKER_00: And kind of going from,
1:45:44
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:45:46
SPEAKER_00: the darkness of Ellison's America in the middle of the 20th century.
1:45:50
SPEAKER_00: This one is 20th century Russia.
1:45:54
SPEAKER_00: And particularly this volume there,
1:45:56
SPEAKER_00: hopefully we're going to get the,
1:45:58
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:45:58
SPEAKER_00: this is the first of a few volumes.
1:46:02
SPEAKER_00: But this is a memoir of his life in the early,
1:46:08
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:46:09
SPEAKER_00: 20th century Russia up through the revolution.
1:46:11
SPEAKER_00: And.
1:46:14
SPEAKER_00: It is horrific.
1:46:16
There is a layering of loss and of horror and just needless,
1:46:25
senseless violence.
1:46:29
But there is something kind of beautiful in the way that
1:46:32
Postovsky is still,
1:46:34
SPEAKER_00: and I think this is also really important,
1:46:37
is still trying to find those connections with these people
1:46:43
that he knows he's
1:46:44
SPEAKER_00: going to lose.
1:46:45
and to commemorate the time that they had and i absolutely um
1:46:49
love this this book
1:46:51
it was it was touching and i just i can't wait i'm hoping that
1:46:56
any day now we get
1:46:57
news of the next volume um but there was a part that i i wanted
1:47:02
to read again this
1:47:02
is someone who lived through the revolution was involved in it
1:47:05
was uh getting you
1:47:07
SPEAKER_00: know uh
1:47:09
SPEAKER_00: death-defying every day and losing people throughout.
1:47:17
SPEAKER_00: And not just in these conflicts, but just because of life.
1:47:22
SPEAKER_00: This is about time passing and
1:47:26
There's some beautiful parts about the seasons and their passage,
1:47:30
but I just like this part.
1:47:32
SPEAKER_00: It says,
1:47:33
I was thinking that I would never believe anybody who told me
1:47:37
that this life,
1:47:38
SPEAKER_00: with its love,
1:47:39
SPEAKER_00: its longing for truth and happiness,
1:47:41
SPEAKER_00: with its summer lightning and its distant sound of water in the night,
1:47:45
SPEAKER_00: is without purpose and meaning.
1:47:48
Each of us must struggle to affirm this life everywhere and
1:47:51
every day as long as we live.
1:47:54
SPEAKER_00: And again,
1:47:56
SPEAKER_00: you don't have to wait for the next volume to come out to still,
1:48:00
SPEAKER_00: I think,
1:48:00
SPEAKER_00: enjoy the beauty of what Postofsky is doing here.
1:48:04
And so I wanted to bring up,
1:48:06
you know,
1:48:06
this is nonfiction to an extent and also quite long.
1:48:11
SPEAKER_00: I didn't pull it down to see, but it's like 850, 900 pages maybe.
1:48:17
but big in a different way and still going,
1:48:19
you know,
1:48:20
I haven't finished it yet.
1:48:21
SPEAKER_00: Technically I finished the book that I got,
1:48:23
SPEAKER_00: but I,
1:48:23
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:48:24
SPEAKER_00: there's more to come and I can't wait.
1:48:27
SPEAKER_03: Every time you mentioned that one,
1:48:28
SPEAKER_03: I move it to the top of my pile and then it slowly sinks back down.
1:48:32
SPEAKER_00: It's so heavy.
1:48:33
SPEAKER_00: It sinks.
1:48:36
SPEAKER_03: Sounds so good.
1:48:37
SPEAKER_03: So good.
1:48:37
SPEAKER_00: Chris, are you, we got one more each, one more each.
1:48:41
SPEAKER_00: What do you, what do you got to wrap up yours?
1:48:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I've got one here.
1:48:48
SPEAKER_01: First of all, really quickly, on the topic of audacity.
1:48:52
SPEAKER_01: I really like that because I remember reading a long,
1:48:55
SPEAKER_01: long,
1:48:55
SPEAKER_01: long,
1:48:56
SPEAKER_01: long,
1:48:56
SPEAKER_01: long time ago,
1:48:57
SPEAKER_01: I discovered a volume of E.B.
1:48:59
SPEAKER_01: White's essays in a little mountain farmhouse book.
1:49:06
that had been turned into a bookstore up in the Virginia Blue
1:49:09
Ridge Mountains.
1:49:11
SPEAKER_01: And I had been dropped off.
1:49:13
My wife and the rest of my family dropped me off there and went
1:49:17
and did their own thing.
1:49:19
SPEAKER_01: And so I was done with my browsing and I had purchased this volume.
1:49:25
SPEAKER_01: So I sat on the little porch in one of the wicker rocking chairs.
1:49:28
SPEAKER_01: And the very first thing I read was his little forward to the anthology.
1:49:34
SPEAKER_01: And he said,
1:49:36
SPEAKER_01: That any,
1:49:38
SPEAKER_01: anyone,
1:49:39
SPEAKER_01: any,
1:49:40
SPEAKER_01: every writer is audacious,
1:49:42
SPEAKER_01: no matter what,
1:49:43
SPEAKER_01: because you have the audacity to think that your words matter.
1:49:47
SPEAKER_01: So, and he's just talking about small little essays.
1:49:51
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I just, I always love that.
1:49:53
SPEAKER_01: So how much more?
1:49:56
when someone says,
1:49:57
okay,
1:49:58
I'm giving you 1300 pages,
1:50:00
you know,
1:50:01
anyway,
1:50:01
sorry about that.
1:50:02
I feel like you,
1:50:03
the three of us could digress for a whole day's worth of recording.
1:50:08
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to have to go with the tale of Genji by Murasaki Shikibu.
1:50:14
SPEAKER_01: This, this was amazing.
1:50:18
SPEAKER_01: And it, I think trying to sum it up with,
1:50:22
SPEAKER_01: with an eye to the sand and the hourglass running woefully thin here.
1:50:29
SPEAKER_01: If you were at all,
1:50:31
SPEAKER_01: if you're like me,
1:50:32
SPEAKER_01: you have a mixture of golden age syndrome,
1:50:37
SPEAKER_01: you're somewhat of a Luddite,
1:50:40
SPEAKER_01: even though I work in IT,
1:50:44
SPEAKER_01: but you kind of almost long to be in a house on a prairie
1:50:52
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:50:54
SPEAKER_01: no cell phones,
1:50:55
SPEAKER_01: no TV,
1:50:56
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:50:57
SPEAKER_01: all of those guys said,
1:50:57
SPEAKER_01: well,
1:50:58
SPEAKER_01: this is one of those books that will take you there.
1:51:00
SPEAKER_01: So I think it's the 11th century and,
1:51:04
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:51:05
SPEAKER_01: you're in a Japanese culture that is highly,
1:51:10
SPEAKER_01: highly regimented.
1:51:12
There are rules around social conduct galore,
1:51:17
way beyond what the Victorians had.
1:51:21
SPEAKER_01: But there's something about it deals with change.
1:51:24
So if you're really a kind of a nostalgic person,
1:51:27
your feelings are at the forefront.
1:51:30
SPEAKER_01: Like me,
1:51:31
SPEAKER_01: you're very sensitive to weather,
1:51:35
SPEAKER_01: fall and winter,
1:51:36
SPEAKER_01: snow,
1:51:37
SPEAKER_01: cold air,
1:51:38
SPEAKER_01: crisp falling leaves really conjure something deep.
1:51:44
within you that you can't put words to this book uh scratches
1:51:48
the itch a little bit
1:51:50
uh these people are there's a whole culture around just letter
1:51:57
writing that gets
1:51:59
into the type of based on what i'm trying to convey to the
1:52:03
recipient of this letter
1:52:05
SPEAKER_01: i might use a certain kind of paper
1:52:09
I might include within it a certain kind of flower that I pick
1:52:13
from my garden.
1:52:16
SPEAKER_01: I might spritz it.
1:52:17
SPEAKER_01: Well,
1:52:17
SPEAKER_01: maybe not spritz,
1:52:18
but I might sprinkle it with a certain type of fragrance
1:52:22
because it's a letter of
1:52:25
SPEAKER_01: this kind of topic.
1:52:26
SPEAKER_01: And so this flower is symbolic of what I'm getting.
1:52:32
SPEAKER_01: Oh, man.
1:52:32
SPEAKER_01: So it's a very, very rich sensory and aesthetic experience.
1:52:38
SPEAKER_01: The whole thing deals with change.
1:52:42
SPEAKER_01: Change is the rule of life.
1:52:46
SPEAKER_01: And I could I know this isn't getting into any of what it's about.
1:52:55
SPEAKER_01: But.
1:52:57
It I remember reading an essay that Michael Derta wrote for The
1:53:01
Washington Post,
1:53:02
where he found himself in a situation where he got to go and
1:53:06
live on campus at Duke University.
1:53:08
SPEAKER_01: by himself for a month.
1:53:09
SPEAKER_01: And all he had to do was teach a class or something like once a day.
1:53:13
SPEAKER_01: And so he decided it was finally time to read the tale of Genji.
1:53:17
SPEAKER_01: And he writes really well about it.
1:53:19
SPEAKER_01: It's called Heian Holiday.
1:53:21
SPEAKER_01: If you want to just seek that essay out, it's like three pages.
1:53:24
SPEAKER_01: It gives a better sense than I could give right now.
1:53:27
SPEAKER_01: But I'll say this, and it goes into the overall topic of this discussion.
1:53:31
SPEAKER_01: I remember reading that little essay of his with extreme envy.
1:53:36
SPEAKER_01: I thought,
1:53:37
SPEAKER_01: Oh,
1:53:37
SPEAKER_01: how nice of,
1:53:38
SPEAKER_01: how nice for you,
1:53:39
SPEAKER_01: Michael Pulitzer prize winning journalist to,
1:53:42
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:53:43
SPEAKER_01: that you got to go and,
1:53:44
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:53:44
SPEAKER_01: be feted by Duke university.
1:53:47
SPEAKER_01: Oh, you got to read the book uninterrupted.
1:53:49
SPEAKER_01: You know, and in my mind, I'm like, that's never going to happen for me.
1:53:52
SPEAKER_01: You know, here I am.
1:53:54
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to have to figure out.
1:53:55
And I thought to myself,
1:53:56
I was like,
1:53:56
I'll never be able to read that book.
1:53:58
SPEAKER_01: And I would look over, look at it.
1:53:59
SPEAKER_01: It's like 1200 pages.
1:54:01
SPEAKER_01: And I'd be,
1:54:01
SPEAKER_01: I'd see it on my shelf and I'd be like,
1:54:02
SPEAKER_01: that's never,
1:54:03
SPEAKER_01: maybe I'll read it when I'm retired.
1:54:06
SPEAKER_01: But you know what?
1:54:07
SPEAKER_01: I finally broke down.
1:54:08
I read this as a working man with a family,
1:54:11
you know,
1:54:11
and all the responsibilities of life.
1:54:14
SPEAKER_01: And it took me a while, but it can be done.
1:54:17
And if anything that I've said about it resonates,
1:54:21
it's a very rich experience.
1:54:22
SPEAKER_01: Done.
1:54:23
SPEAKER_03: I love that.
1:54:24
SPEAKER_03: It all resonated.
1:54:25
SPEAKER_03: And I have two editions.
1:54:26
SPEAKER_03: I just picked up that one you held up.
1:54:29
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:54:30
SPEAKER_03: Two editions, zero of them read, but that's got to change.
1:54:33
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:54:33
SPEAKER_03: No, you sold me.
1:54:35
SPEAKER_03: All right.
1:54:35
SPEAKER_03: Well,
1:54:36
my last one probably would have fit in better when you guys
1:54:39
were both talking about
1:54:39
SPEAKER_03: the super dark books,
1:54:41
SPEAKER_03: but I guess I'm a little out of sync today.
1:54:43
SPEAKER_00: Let's end on a downer, everybody.
1:54:45
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
1:54:45
SPEAKER_03: Oh, it is.
1:54:48
SPEAKER_03: It's one that, you know, it's more recent.
1:54:50
SPEAKER_03: It's A Little Life by Hanya Yanagihara.
1:54:53
SPEAKER_03: weighing in at 814 pages.
1:54:56
SPEAKER_03: 2015, it was shortlisted for the Man Booker and the National Book Award.
1:55:00
SPEAKER_03: I mean, it got a lot of press, both good and bad.
1:55:04
SPEAKER_03: I...
1:55:06
Did not love her first book,
1:55:08
The People in the Trees,
1:55:09
and almost didn't read this one.
1:55:10
But it kept coming up enough that I finally did bite the bullet
1:55:13
and did it.
1:55:15
SPEAKER_03: Let me just say it deals with some very dark subject matter,
1:55:18
SPEAKER_03: substance abuse,
1:55:20
SPEAKER_03: self-harm,
1:55:21
SPEAKER_03: suicide.
1:55:21
SPEAKER_03: And a lot of the blowback that it received was people saying misery porn,
1:55:26
SPEAKER_03: basically just saying it's just miserable for the sake of misery.
1:55:30
SPEAKER_03: But I don't agree with that at all.
1:55:33
I think there is a lot of darkness and tough subject matter to it,
1:55:37
of course.
1:55:38
But I found a review in The Wall Street Journal by someone
1:55:41
named Sam Sachs,
1:55:42
who called it an epic study of trauma and friendship written
1:55:46
with such intelligence
1:55:47
and depth of perception that it will be one of the benchmarks
1:55:50
against which all
1:55:51
SPEAKER_03: other novels that broach these subjects will be measured.
1:55:55
SPEAKER_03: And I think that's really important.
1:55:56
SPEAKER_03: And then he goes on to say,
1:56:21
SPEAKER_03: And I love that.
1:56:22
SPEAKER_03: I think that is where it would be easy to see it in a certain way.
1:56:25
But I think that's the perfect argument for what a dark book
1:56:28
like we've been discussing can do.
1:56:30
SPEAKER_03: It can be done poorly.
1:56:32
SPEAKER_03: But if it's done in the right way,
1:56:33
SPEAKER_03: it can touch on some things that are,
1:56:36
SPEAKER_03: like you were saying,
1:56:37
SPEAKER_03: Chris,
1:56:37
SPEAKER_03: tempting to look away from,
1:56:38
SPEAKER_03: but important,
1:56:39
SPEAKER_03: I think,
1:56:40
SPEAKER_03: to embrace.
1:56:41
SPEAKER_03: So, yeah, I mean, there was one other thing I saw online.
1:56:43
SPEAKER_03: Somebody says,
1:56:44
SPEAKER_03: A Little Life may be the most beautiful,
1:56:46
SPEAKER_03: profoundly moving novel I've ever read,
1:56:49
SPEAKER_03: but I would never recommend it to anyone.
1:56:51
SPEAKER_03: And I don't think that's true.
1:56:52
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
1:56:53
SPEAKER_03: I understand what they're saying,
1:56:54
SPEAKER_03: but I disagree only in that I think for the right person.
1:56:58
And if you go into it with your eyes wide open,
1:57:01
it is incredibly beautiful.
1:57:02
SPEAKER_03: It's sad, but achingly beautiful.
1:57:04
SPEAKER_03: So yeah, I'll just leave it there.
1:57:07
But I think if anybody has seen only the misery porn
1:57:10
accusations against it,
1:57:12
I would argue that that is not the whole story and that there's
1:57:17
a lot more to it
1:57:17
SPEAKER_03: than that.
1:57:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:57:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:57:20
SPEAKER_00: Well, and you kind of touch on an important point.
1:57:22
These books can ask a lot of us and require a lot of us and put
1:57:25
us through a lot.
1:57:26
So it's important to understand and try to grapple with what
1:57:29
are they giving back?
1:57:30
SPEAKER_00: What am I getting from this?
1:57:32
SPEAKER_00: And if it's just pointless misery, then maybe not.
1:57:36
But yeah,
1:57:38
enough people love that one that that can't be it,
1:57:40
that it's giving back.
1:57:41
SPEAKER_00: Well, you two both have important things to do.
1:57:43
SPEAKER_00: Paul, you've got to do some serious work in the bookstore.
1:57:47
SPEAKER_00: And Chris, you've got to be a serious patron.
1:57:49
SPEAKER_00: And I'm going to join in on that too.
1:57:52
I'll just mention my last book is one that I have brought up
1:57:55
before on the
1:57:56
SPEAKER_00: Archipelago Books episode.
1:57:59
SPEAKER_00: It is Stone Upon Stone by Wiesla Mislewski, translated by Bill Johnston.
1:58:04
SPEAKER_00: I love this book.
1:58:05
And it's beautiful in the archipelago because it's not just big
1:58:11
in page count,
1:58:12
SPEAKER_00: but they make it look like a big square tome.
1:58:15
Almost like one of the stones that the guy's trying to get to
1:58:18
build up his grave.
1:58:22
SPEAKER_00: One of the other reasons I wanted to bring this up is because
1:58:26
for the first time in a decade,
1:58:27
we're getting a new Vieslamis-Lewski book from them.
1:58:30
SPEAKER_00: They'll be publishing Needle's Eye in October later on this year.
1:58:35
SPEAKER_00: It's not a big one.
1:58:36
SPEAKER_00: I did look.
1:58:37
SPEAKER_00: It's like 350 pages or something like that.
1:58:42
SPEAKER_00: But I loved Stone Upon Stone so much and hope more people find it.
1:58:49
SPEAKER_00: But anyway, yes, we all have books to go and tend to today.
1:58:54
SPEAKER_00: So, Chris, thanks so much.
1:58:55
SPEAKER_00: I agree.
1:58:56
SPEAKER_00: We could keep on going.
1:58:57
SPEAKER_00: It has been an absolute delight.
1:58:59
It always makes me feel bad when these episodes are over
1:59:04
because it's over.
1:59:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I feel like I just woke up and I'm ready to start.
1:59:11
SPEAKER_03: Well,
1:59:11
SPEAKER_03: if you're up for it,
1:59:12
we'll have to have you back on because I could talk to you guys
1:59:14
all day about this stuff.
1:59:16
SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much.
1:59:17
SPEAKER_03: This has just been absolutely a wonderful experience.
1:59:20
SPEAKER_03: Wonderful conversation.
1:59:21
SPEAKER_03: Agreed.
1:59:21
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:59:23
SPEAKER_00: All right, listeners, let us know some of your favorite big books.
1:59:25
SPEAKER_00: Let us know your thoughts on big books.
1:59:27
SPEAKER_00: You know, we made some claims and explored some areas.
1:59:30
SPEAKER_00: Give us your thoughts on where we went.
1:59:33
SPEAKER_00: But thanks to you all.
1:59:34
SPEAKER_00: We will be back soon.
1:59:39
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1:59:43
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1:59:44
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