Latest / PNW Haunts & Homicides / Nancy Moyer: Two Wine Glasses on the Table | Tenino, WA

Transcript

Nancy Moyer: Two Wine Glasses on the Table | Tenino, WA · PNW Haunts & Homicides

0:01
Speaker 1: The front door was ajar.
0:03
Speaker 2: The living room lights were on, the television was on
0:07
Speaker 2: a bedside lamp in Nancy's bedroom was still lit. On
0:10
Speaker 2: the coffee table sat too partially consumed glasses of wine.
0:15
Speaker 2: Her purse was inside her identification wallet, car keys, and
0:21
Speaker 2: cigarettes were all in the house. Her white Honda Civic
0:25
Speaker 2: del Soul was parked out front. There was no sign
0:28
Speaker 2: of a struggle, there was no sign of forced entry,
0:32
Speaker 2: and arguably most importantly, there was no Nancy.
0:39
Speaker 1: Hi, Cassie, Hi, Caitlin, Hi, creepy people.
0:44
Speaker 2: Oh hellou. This is PNW Hans and Homicides, where we
0:51
Speaker 2: chat about true crime, the paranormal, sometimes the Titanic, and.
0:58
Speaker 1: You know, we'll just whatever we're feeling. I guess whatever
1:02
Speaker 1: we want. It's our show. Oh yeah, don't leave us alone.
1:08
Speaker 3: And we also do Tara reading at the end of
1:10
Speaker 3: every episode, just you know, for a little insight into
1:14
Speaker 3: what we're talking about.
1:16
Speaker 2: All right, So we have a new member of the
1:20
Speaker 2: Patreon joining us. Yeah, joining us. It looks like for
1:27
Speaker 2: a whole year on the never Bundy Tier, which.
1:31
Speaker 3: Is congratulations to you. You're stuck with us.
1:35
Speaker 1: Yeah, So thank you to Peter for joining us, for
1:39
Speaker 1: one whole year.
1:41
Speaker 3: Thank you, Peter, Yay. We hope you love it here
1:45
Speaker 3: join the chat. It's really fun because, like I post
1:50
Speaker 3: a bunch of shit in the chat only for Patreon, so.
1:54
Speaker 2: I know, sometimes when I haven't been on there for
1:57
Speaker 2: like a few days, I'll pop on and be like,
1:59
Speaker 2: oh my gosh, what's happening here?
2:00
Speaker 1: There's there's things.
2:02
Speaker 3: Yeah, you get you get a little insight into our life.
2:05
Speaker 3: It's kind of like doing taro, yeah a little bit right.
2:09
Speaker 3: I know last time I posted a really nasty picture
2:12
Speaker 3: of myself in there, so you're welcome, you guys.
2:15
Speaker 1: I saw that. It was pretty cool.
2:17
Speaker 3: I was in the gift shop at Titanic and I
2:20
Speaker 3: was really excited because I found the heart of the
2:21
Speaker 3: ocean and I want to take a picture, but the
2:24
Speaker 3: lighting was horrible in there. Oh no, I'm ever going
2:28
Speaker 3: to see this photo but my friends. And then I
2:31
Speaker 3: was like, well, pictures my friends too, so I'll just
2:33
Speaker 3: send it in there.
2:36
Speaker 1: I love that.
2:37
Speaker 2: I know, maybe I'll have to take a picture of
2:40
Speaker 2: my first class teacup and saucer. Yes, it's very fun, say,
2:47
Speaker 2: I'm so excited.
2:48
Speaker 3: And went to the Titanic exhibit because I made her
2:51
Speaker 3: so excited.
2:53
Speaker 2: I know, well, and then it just so happened, and
2:56
Speaker 2: I'll just say this, Uh, Momsy has like a five
3:00
Speaker 2: dollars day every first Sunday of the month, and so
3:05
Speaker 2: it just so happened that right after we recorded your
3:10
Speaker 2: episode that Sunday was the cheaper Sunday. Now, of course
3:14
Speaker 2: they weren't going to let us in for just five
3:17
Speaker 2: dollars flat. There's like an up charge for the exhibit
3:20
Speaker 2: blah blah blah. But it ended up being like less
3:23
Speaker 2: than half price all in nice, so I felt good
3:28
Speaker 2: about it. And then it was so nice on the
3:31
Speaker 2: waterfront that you know, we kind of had a nice afternoon.
3:35
Speaker 1: Yeah, very Portland day. Yeah, it was all right.
3:41
Speaker 2: But the thing we're going to talk about isn't very
3:44
Speaker 2: portland Y because it's actually not in Portland.
3:47
Speaker 1: But you know, well, is it in the PNW. At
3:50
Speaker 1: least it is.
3:52
Speaker 3: As per Us if you're nasty, If you're nasty.
3:58
Speaker 2: Known as the Stone City for historic sandstone buildings to Nino,
4:03
Speaker 2: Washington is a rural town with a population of less
4:06
Speaker 2: than two thousand.
4:09
Speaker 1: Dang, it's very small. What is Sandstone? I wasn't prepared
4:16
Speaker 1: for that question.
4:19
Speaker 2: It's It's raw is a sedimentary rock formed by the
4:25
Speaker 2: accumulation and sementation of sand sized grains, predominantly quartz or feldspar,
4:33
Speaker 2: over millions of years.
4:35
Speaker 1: Oh see, that was interesting.
4:37
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a tight knit community, the kind of place
4:42
Speaker 2: where you know your neighbors.
4:44
Speaker 3: I feel like that was like the last episode. You
4:46
Speaker 3: said that too. You've been doing small towns.
4:48
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I feel like my vibe recently has been
4:54
Speaker 2: a little bit like small town seems.
4:57
Speaker 1: Safe, quiet, just kid. Yeah, I don't know.
5:04
Speaker 2: I feel like the last couple that I've come across
5:07
Speaker 2: that I've wanted to talk about that's just been like
5:10
Speaker 2: luck of the draw.
5:11
Speaker 1: But it does.
5:13
Speaker 2: It does feel a little bit like a theme recently.
5:18
Speaker 2: Tonoe strikes a balance between quiet, small town living while
5:23
Speaker 2: still offering close proximity to other neighboring larger cities. It's
5:28
Speaker 2: just fifteen miles south of the state's capital in Olympia, and,
5:32
Speaker 2: depending on traffic, about an hour and a half south
5:35
Speaker 2: of the Emerald City Seattle. I feel like I sound
5:41
Speaker 2: like somebody who was hired by the board of the city,
5:47
Speaker 2: like for their tourism website or something.
5:50
Speaker 1: But I'm mentioning Olympia for a specific reason.
5:54
Speaker 2: And I always feel like, if you grew up in Washington,
5:58
Speaker 2: maybe you don't feel this way, but I all always
6:00
Speaker 2: kind of do this, and I do it with Oregon too.
6:05
Speaker 2: I want to know, like, what's the proximity to Seattle,
6:08
Speaker 2: what's the proximity to Portland?
6:10
Speaker 1: You know?
6:11
Speaker 2: Like, yeah, I always kind of find myself comparing just
6:15
Speaker 2: to kind of get a vibe.
6:17
Speaker 3: I do that too. Also, when you say Emerald City,
6:20
Speaker 3: I'm like, Wizard of Us.
6:22
Speaker 1: Wizard of Us? Is the wizard there? Oh? There is
6:26
Speaker 1: a wizard there? Is it? Uh? What's this Jeff Goldbloom?
6:32
Speaker 1: Oh that'd be nice.
6:34
Speaker 2: I wonder if they're going to bring back his travel
6:36
Speaker 2: show Chris and I loved that.
6:39
Speaker 1: Yeah, me too, Ton, I.
6:41
Speaker 2: Know is where Thirty six year old Nancy Moyer was
6:44
Speaker 2: living in two thousand and nine, commuting to Lacey for
6:47
Speaker 2: her job as a financial analyst for the Washington State
6:51
Speaker 2: Department of Ecology. She'd grown up in Olympia, and after
6:56
Speaker 2: meeting and marrying Bill Moyer, had since become a devoted
7:00
Speaker 2: mother to their young daughters, Sam and Amanda. The couple
7:05
Speaker 2: had been separated for a couple of years. By two
7:08
Speaker 2: thousand and nine she was happily making a fresh start
7:11
Speaker 2: and moving forward as a single woman after a decade
7:15
Speaker 2: of marriage.
7:15
Speaker 1: So wow, that's a vibe.
7:18
Speaker 2: Yes, it is, And it's interesting because I feel like
7:22
Speaker 2: that's kind of another parallel to the last case as well.
7:26
Speaker 2: Lindsay's family had moved from Tennessee for a fresh start
7:31
Speaker 2: after a divorce.
7:31
Speaker 1: Oh's yeah, okay, yeah, I know.
7:35
Speaker 2: It's kind of something that gets mentioned in the very beginning,
7:40
Speaker 2: and I think like one of the saddest things that
7:43
Speaker 2: we talked about with that case was that it was
7:45
Speaker 2: like then after Lindsay went missing, they immediately kind of had.
7:50
Speaker 1: To move again, right the family. Yeah, damn.
7:55
Speaker 2: Though it's almost always sad when a marriage ends, the
7:59
Speaker 2: split was described is amicable, which honestly kind of a feat.
8:04
Speaker 1: I feel like the pair had.
8:07
Speaker 2: Come to an agreement regarding custody arrangements without involving courts.
8:12
Speaker 2: So that's always good because that's trumatic, I know, Yeah,
8:15
Speaker 2: it really is, and I feel like it's not necessarily
8:19
Speaker 2: the norm these days. You just don't see that as much.
8:23
Speaker 2: Bill took the girls on weekends while Nancy watched them
8:27
Speaker 2: during the week, and neither missed a pickup or drop off.
8:31
Speaker 2: They were both like really good parents from everything that
8:35
Speaker 2: I came across, and I don't know, it just seems
8:39
Speaker 2: like like what awesome people that they're like having this
8:43
Speaker 2: amicable divorce. They're like really putting the kids first. They're
8:47
Speaker 2: just you know, trying to move forward and like start
8:53
Speaker 2: their lives over and just put like their best foot forward. Yeah,
8:59
Speaker 2: that reliability would become one of the first signals that
9:03
Speaker 2: something was deeply wrong.
9:06
Speaker 3: I feel like suspenseful music needs to start. I know,
9:10
Speaker 3: I'm feeling more nervous about the situation.
9:14
Speaker 2: I know I'm feeling like I need at least one
9:17
Speaker 2: foot up in the chair. And now that I put
9:20
Speaker 2: one up, I feel like the other one just wants
9:22
Speaker 2: to join. So there we go. I'm crisscross apple sauce
9:26
Speaker 2: now so we can continue. But tonight, I know, for
9:31
Speaker 2: all its small town charm is also a place where,
9:34
Speaker 2: within a span of little more than a year, two
9:37
Speaker 2: women would meet violent ends. That proximity of geography, of
9:42
Speaker 2: timing of community is one of the most unsettling threads
9:46
Speaker 2: running through this case. We're is saying something because there's
9:50
Speaker 2: a lot of really unsettling shit about this case.
9:53
Speaker 1: If I'm being honest, I'm like, I don't know yet.
9:56
Speaker 3: I know.
9:59
Speaker 2: On Friday, March sixth, two thousand and nine, Nancy left
10:03
Speaker 2: the Department of Ecollegey office at approximately five point fifteen pm.
10:08
Speaker 2: Before heading home, she drove a coworker home, a detail
10:12
Speaker 2: that will become significant later in the investigation. And I
10:17
Speaker 2: say that because we actually, based on all of the
10:22
Speaker 2: research that I did, don't know who this coworker was.
10:27
Speaker 2: And there's a there's a piece of the investigation that
10:31
Speaker 2: it's like, but we need to know that we and
10:35
Speaker 2: I'm going to tell you why, just not yet, but
10:37
Speaker 2: we need to know. After dropping the coworker off, Nancy
10:42
Speaker 2: stopped at the to ninoh thrift Way at approximately six
10:45
Speaker 2: forty five and paid by check. So this is, I mean,
10:50
Speaker 2: two thousand and nine, still very much like the modern era.
10:55
Speaker 2: But that should tell you something because I don't know
10:58
Speaker 2: of almost any place on God's Green Earth that takes
11:01
Speaker 2: a check anymore.
11:02
Speaker 1: I can't even pay rent with a check.
11:05
Speaker 2: So the sighting at the thrift Way several years back,
11:10
Speaker 2: that was believed to be the last confirmed sighting of Nancy,
11:16
Speaker 2: it is no longer the girls were with Bill that weekend.
11:20
Speaker 2: Hours later, a to Nino police officer running radar had
11:24
Speaker 2: spotted Nancy unloading groceries from her car between nine and
11:29
Speaker 2: nine thirty pm. And this is now the last confirmed
11:33
Speaker 2: sighting of her alive.
11:35
Speaker 1: Wow, why did it take so long for that to
11:37
Speaker 1: come out?
11:39
Speaker 2: You know, I don't really know, I would assume because
11:43
Speaker 2: you know, when you're running radar, you're essentially like you're
11:46
Speaker 2: just trying to catch speeders. Yeah, and so it feels
11:50
Speaker 2: like kind of unrelated. But somehow, over the years of
11:53
Speaker 2: this investigation that came to light. So there are a
11:58
Speaker 2: number of podcasts that talked about this case, and we're
12:01
Speaker 2: going to actually talk about the major one, the main one,
12:07
Speaker 2: a little bit later, but there's a lot of information
12:12
Speaker 2: and kind of like content or coverage out there about
12:15
Speaker 2: the case that still shows that as being the last
12:19
Speaker 2: time she was seen. And it's because that's, you know,
12:23
Speaker 2: kind of a development that's happened over time. On Sunday,
12:27
Speaker 2: March eighth, Bill brought the girls back to Nancy's home
12:31
Speaker 2: on the seven hundred block of State Route five oh seven.
12:35
Speaker 2: The front door was a jar, the living room lights
12:38
Speaker 2: were on, the television was on a bedside lamp in
12:43
Speaker 2: Nancy's bedroom was still lit. On the coffee table sat
12:47
Speaker 2: two partially consumed glasses of wine. Both were fingerprinted by investigators.
12:54
Speaker 2: Only Nancy's prints were identified.
12:57
Speaker 1: She was double fist in it.
13:00
Speaker 2: I don't think so. The second glass has never been explained.
13:05
Speaker 2: That is so interesting.
13:07
Speaker 3: Like I wonder if she just had just like handed
13:10
Speaker 3: it or not handed it, but like set it down
13:12
Speaker 3: for whoever else was there, but they never picked it up.
13:16
Speaker 1: That or their prints aren't in the system.
13:19
Speaker 2: Oh okay, hmmm, it's hard to say because it's never
13:24
Speaker 2: been explained.
13:26
Speaker 3: They didn't say there was like unidentified other unidentified prints
13:29
Speaker 3: on it.
13:31
Speaker 2: I don't know that they've ever conclusively stated that there
13:35
Speaker 2: was like another identifiable second set of prints by like
13:42
Speaker 2: another individual that they just couldn't confirm who they belonged to.
13:47
Speaker 2: That piece of it is is a little bit murky,
13:49
Speaker 2: and so I think it's really interesting. Yeah, her purse
13:54
Speaker 2: was inside her identification wallet, car, keys, and cigarettes were
14:00
Speaker 2: all in the house.
14:01
Speaker 1: Her white Honda Civic del Soul was parked out front.
14:05
Speaker 2: There was no sign of a struggle, there was no
14:08
Speaker 2: sign of forced entry, and arguably most importantly, there was
14:14
Speaker 2: no Nancy where she I mean, I can't even imagine.
14:19
Speaker 2: I'm sure that's the question that you know her. This
14:22
Speaker 2: is you know a man that obviously clearly loved her
14:25
Speaker 2: at one point, he's there to drop off their kids
14:28
Speaker 2: and he's like, where the hell is Nancy.
14:31
Speaker 3: Yeah, that would be so weird and like eerie to
14:34
Speaker 3: walk it like you're just normal day dropping off the
14:37
Speaker 3: kids and then like, yeah, they're.
14:39
Speaker 1: Just not there.
14:41
Speaker 2: I mean some of those details, like the fact that
14:43
Speaker 2: her car's still there, Basically everything that a woman would
14:46
Speaker 2: normally have in their purse, all of those things are
14:50
Speaker 2: still there. Her car's still there, like and like the
14:53
Speaker 2: front door being a jar, that is yeah. I mean
14:58
Speaker 2: if I showed up to somebody's house and their door
15:00
Speaker 2: was a jar and they're not like walking in or out,
15:06
Speaker 2: I oof, Yeah, I can't. No, it's not a good vibe.
15:11
Speaker 2: Bill Moyer reported her missing at five pm on March eighth.
15:15
Speaker 2: By March twelfth, detectives have found no evidence of a
15:19
Speaker 2: break in or struggle, but classified the disappearance as suspicious
15:24
Speaker 2: and eventually as a presumed homicide, what law enforcement would
15:30
Speaker 2: typically call a no body homicide. Ten days after her disappearance,
15:37
Speaker 2: dozens of searchers and ten cadaver dogs come to the area.
15:42
Speaker 2: No trace of Nancy was found. Investigators moved quickly to
15:47
Speaker 2: establish a timeline and identify persons of interest. Bill Moyer
15:52
Speaker 2: was cleared as a suspect early in the investigation. He
15:55
Speaker 2: passed a polygraph test, and the nature of the couple's
15:58
Speaker 2: separation just did point in his direction. It wasn't an
16:02
Speaker 2: acrimonious divorce in progress, I mean, no custody dispute. It
16:08
Speaker 2: doesn't seem like there was any sort of you know,
16:12
Speaker 2: there's no history of violence, I mean really anything to
16:16
Speaker 2: indicate that he would want Nancy dad. And if you
16:20
Speaker 2: think about it, you probably if you were going to
16:23
Speaker 2: try to kill your you know, future ex wife and
16:28
Speaker 2: you know that she's you know, no longer with us,
16:32
Speaker 2: you're not going to take your kids into her creepy
16:38
Speaker 2: ass house where their mom is no longer Like that
16:42
Speaker 2: would be so traumatic. I just I would struggle to
16:46
Speaker 2: think that any loving father would do that to their child.
16:50
Speaker 2: Now if you were, you know, some sort of a psycho, obviously,
16:55
Speaker 2: but it doesn't seem like that's the case.
16:58
Speaker 3: Yeah, they ruled them all. I'm sure that was like
17:00
Speaker 3: their first suspect.
17:02
Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, yeah, I mean any romantic partner, whether it's
17:06
Speaker 2: current or former. There they jump up to the top
17:09
Speaker 2: of the list. The case attracted early attention, but few
17:14
Speaker 2: leads materialized. Retired police officer Fred Dodie took up Nancy's
17:20
Speaker 2: case in the years following her disappearance, telling media, I
17:24
Speaker 2: think it's somebody she knew, but the case began going cold.
17:31
Speaker 3: That makes sense because there was the like the two
17:33
Speaker 3: wine glasses and then like the no entry things.
17:37
Speaker 2: So yeah, absolutely, yeah, no, it makes perfect sense. You're like, clearly,
17:43
Speaker 2: if it was somebody she didn't know, she's probably not
17:46
Speaker 2: inviting them in for wine, you know, the acquaintance. Yeah,
17:52
Speaker 2: like somebody that she would have felt comfortable allowing into
17:55
Speaker 2: her home in all likelihood. Now, I mean it's totally possible.
17:59
Speaker 2: I would say probably unlikely, just given on what we
18:04
Speaker 2: know about the timeline. But it's totally possible that she
18:08
Speaker 2: had a glass of wine with someone at her home
18:11
Speaker 2: and that person has nothing to do with her disappearance.
18:14
Speaker 2: But again, I think that's unlikely given the timeline. It was,
18:20
Speaker 2: you know, already late at night when she was unloading
18:23
Speaker 2: the groceries. So in twenty ten, a separate and deeply
18:28
Speaker 2: disturbing case emerged into Nino that would eventually intersect with Nancy's.
18:35
Speaker 2: Bernard Keith Howell the third, a twenty six year old
18:40
Speaker 2: door to door meet salesman, was pulled over. I know,
18:46
Speaker 2: it gets so much worse. Was pulled over on August eighth,
18:51
Speaker 2: twenty ten, near Parkside Elementary School. Uh oh, do you
18:57
Speaker 2: want to take a guess of what why he was
19:00
Speaker 2: pulled over or what happened?
19:03
Speaker 1: Was he being weird around children?
19:07
Speaker 2: You know what?
19:07
Speaker 1: Given the location, that is a really good guess. But it's.
19:13
Speaker 2: It's not that I don't want to comment on whether
19:17
Speaker 2: it's better or worse than that per se, but it is.
19:22
Speaker 2: It's very ichy, just in a different way. Vanda boone,
19:29
Speaker 2: sixty was in the passenger seat, her body wrapped in
19:33
Speaker 2: a sleeping bag and plastic.
19:36
Speaker 3: Wait what uh huh? He got pulled over with the
19:40
Speaker 3: body in his car?
19:41
Speaker 1: Sure did what?
19:45
Speaker 3: So?
19:45
Speaker 2: Remember I did say at the top that there would
19:49
Speaker 2: be two women who would meet violent ends.
19:52
Speaker 3: Yeah you did.
19:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, so one of them is, unfortunately Vanda.
19:59
Speaker 1: Oh Howell murdered.
20:02
Speaker 2: Vanda on the Yelm Tenanino Trail approximately seventeen months after
20:08
Speaker 2: Nancy Moyer disappeared. The poor woman's throat was slit and
20:12
Speaker 2: she suffered blunt force trauma to her head and neck
20:15
Speaker 2: that also contributed to her death. Howell initially told detectives
20:21
Speaker 2: he had found her already dead and wanted to spare
20:25
Speaker 2: Vanda's family the cost of a funeral.
20:28
Speaker 1: That literally makes no sense.
20:31
Speaker 2: Yes, so typical. Not only does he try to deflect
20:35
Speaker 2: from his crime, but in a twisted way, also tries
20:38
Speaker 2: to paint himself in a positive light with just a
20:42
Speaker 2: completely ridiculous story.
20:45
Speaker 1: I mean, here's the thing.
20:47
Speaker 2: In my mind, any person with a shred of empathy
20:51
Speaker 2: would understand that.
20:53
Speaker 1: I don't know.
20:53
Speaker 2: Most families want to understand what happened to their loved
20:57
Speaker 2: one and grieve their loss. Yeah, with understandably, I would
21:02
Speaker 2: argue financial concerns trailing as a much lesser consideration. I
21:08
Speaker 2: don't think that anybody who has discovered oh no, my mother,
21:13
Speaker 2: my sister, whoever has died, says, oh gosh, I wish
21:18
Speaker 2: somebody would have just taken the body and never let
21:22
Speaker 2: us know what happened to them, so we wouldn't have
21:24
Speaker 2: to pay for a funeral.
21:26
Speaker 3: Seriously, and like, if you're that concerned, start a fucking
21:29
Speaker 3: GoFundMe or something like.
21:31
Speaker 2: Seriously, But I mean, okay, so let's pretend for a
21:36
Speaker 2: moment that we believe any facet of that ridiculousness saving
21:43
Speaker 2: them money would actually rob them of that closure. So,
21:47
Speaker 2: I don't know, it just seems unreasonable that even he
21:51
Speaker 2: would have bought into that horrific logic, especially when you
21:54
Speaker 2: consider that he later admitted to having sex with her
21:57
Speaker 2: dead body. No, I hate you, I know, I know. Yeah,
22:04
Speaker 2: it's uh, there's very little. There's really nothing redeeming about
22:13
Speaker 2: this aspect of the case that has become intertwined. It's
22:18
Speaker 2: uh pretty horrendous.
22:22
Speaker 1: Jesus Christ.
22:24
Speaker 2: And this is how it all ties back. Howell had
22:28
Speaker 2: lived less than a mile from Nancy Moyer's home. Though
22:32
Speaker 2: Howell denied ever selling any of his wares to Nancy,
22:36
Speaker 2: investigators found the same brand of meat Howell had been selling.
22:40
Speaker 1: Door to door in Nancy's freezer. Mmmm hmm okay.
22:45
Speaker 2: Also, her daughter identified Howell from a photo montage as
22:50
Speaker 2: the man who had once sold her mother meat.
22:54
Speaker 1: Okay, I don't.
22:56
Speaker 2: Know why that is the thing that you're fighting so
23:00
Speaker 2: hard to deny admitted to having sex with a dead body,
23:07
Speaker 2: but you won't admit that you sold meat to a
23:12
Speaker 2: woman that has since gone missing. I guess maybe you
23:15
Speaker 2: don't want to give them anything to go on and
23:18
Speaker 2: have them, you know, slap you with charges for that
23:23
Speaker 2: presumed crime as well. But right, but you said this
23:27
Speaker 2: is a small town, right, Like ye? How many door
23:30
Speaker 2: door meat salesmen are there going to be in this
23:32
Speaker 2: one small town? Like, I mean, I have to imagine
23:36
Speaker 2: even if there was a ridiculous number of them, say
23:39
Speaker 2: a dozen, what come on?
23:43
Speaker 1: Yeah? How many different brands? Forget, even if he's the
23:48
Speaker 1: specific salesman, how many different brands of meat are sold
23:53
Speaker 1: door to door?
23:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sorry, Bud, Like I think we know that,
23:59
Speaker 2: Like I think we know you sold her this meat.
24:03
Speaker 2: I don't think that feels like it's super open for debate.
24:07
Speaker 1: I don't know, I.
24:08
Speaker 3: Don't know why, but this is also reminded me of
24:11
Speaker 3: the movie I just told you to.
24:12
Speaker 1: Watch Men, Just like why are men? Why it's happening?
24:17
Speaker 2: I mean, just ridiculousness, just absolute bullshit, Like do you
24:22
Speaker 2: think that anyone is buying this.
24:26
Speaker 3: And just picturing him going indoor? Just a man going
24:28
Speaker 3: door to door, Hey want to buy my meat? Like
24:30
Speaker 3: it just ough.
24:32
Speaker 2: Oh, everything about this is just absolute maximum ick.
24:39
Speaker 1: And actually there's a teeny bit more.
24:45
Speaker 2: Just to kind of put a bow on that portion
24:48
Speaker 2: of of the ick I got.
24:51
Speaker 1: I don't even.
24:55
Speaker 2: His defense attorney argued that Howell and admitted havevy user
24:59
Speaker 2: of amphetamine, which I can't imagine is a detail that
25:04
Speaker 2: surprises anyone, not really, no specifically, and the lead up
25:09
Speaker 2: to the murder, had been experiencing drug induced psychosis, having
25:14
Speaker 2: exhibited some common symptoms, including hearing voices and harboring a
25:19
Speaker 2: desire for extreme isolation. So you know, listen, he would
25:26
Speaker 2: never have had sex with a dead person that he
25:30
Speaker 2: killed normally, but you know, the meth and maybe maybe
25:35
Speaker 2: that's true. I kind of find myself not caring that
25:40
Speaker 2: either way. But initially found incompetent to stand trial, Howell
25:47
Speaker 2: was treated at Western State Hospital so his competency could
25:52
Speaker 2: be restored prior to entering a guilty plea to first
25:55
Speaker 2: degree murder. He was sentenced twenty seven years for Boone's murder.
26:02
Speaker 2: He has denied any involvement in Nancy's disappearance, and there's
26:08
Speaker 2: no evidence linking him to Nancy's case that has ever
26:12
Speaker 2: been found that we know of, and he's never been charged, right, Yeah,
26:17
Speaker 2: but I.
26:18
Speaker 1: Mean her, it's hardly a smoking gun. Yeah.
26:23
Speaker 2: It says that probably he interacted with her at some point,
26:27
Speaker 2: but there's no other connection, so he's he's never been
26:30
Speaker 2: charged in connection with Nancy's disappearance. For nearly a decade,
26:37
Speaker 2: Nancy's case went cold. Samantha Moyer, her daughter grew up
26:42
Speaker 2: in that absence. She didn't get to see me, graduate,
26:48
Speaker 2: she didn't get to see my first dance, drive a car,
26:52
Speaker 2: any of that.
26:54
Speaker 1: It's just been hard since then.
26:58
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I will chill. Yeah, it's so awful. It's
27:06
Speaker 3: like obviously like you know, yeah that that's hard, but
27:10
Speaker 3: like there's not really even any other words to really
27:13
Speaker 3: describe it as a kid going through that, Like, man,
27:16
Speaker 3: it's just fucking hard.
27:18
Speaker 1: Yeah.
27:19
Speaker 2: Intellectually, you know that if someone is missing like this
27:24
Speaker 2: and the way that Nancy is, of course there are
27:27
Speaker 2: gonna be these huge milestone moments in her children's life
27:33
Speaker 2: that she's gonna miss. But to hear her child describe
27:38
Speaker 2: that just hits Yeah, it hits different. The podcast Hide
27:44
Speaker 2: and Seek brought renewed interest and national attention to the case. Reportedly,
27:50
Speaker 2: law enforcement has even credited the show as having help
27:54
Speaker 2: to generate new leads.
27:57
Speaker 1: I know it's a dream.
27:59
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I don't know how I feel about
28:03
Speaker 2: the host at this point in history.
28:07
Speaker 1: But you know that's a whole separate thing. I have
28:11
Speaker 1: no idea.
28:11
Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, so just happy, just happy. Yeah, We're
28:17
Speaker 2: going to choose in this moment for the purposes of
28:20
Speaker 2: telling this case, to separate the art from the artist.
28:24
Speaker 1: Okay.
28:25
Speaker 2: Season one was launched in March twenty nineteen, coinciding with
28:30
Speaker 2: the ten year anniversary of Nancy's disappearance. And you know
28:34
Speaker 2: how we feel about synchronicities. Yeah, and then something else happened,
28:41
Speaker 2: and it didn't quite hit me until I'm looking at
28:45
Speaker 2: the date again.
28:46
Speaker 1: Now I'm really sorry, Cassie.
28:49
Speaker 2: Then, on July ninth, twenty nineteen, more than ten years
28:55
Speaker 2: after Nancy disappeared, fifty three year old Eric Lee Roberts
29:00
Speaker 2: called nine to one one from his home, and I
29:03
Speaker 2: think there is sort of a thing in the true
29:07
Speaker 2: crime community where we're like three names.
29:09
Speaker 1: It's one too many.
29:11
Speaker 3: M hmm.
29:12
Speaker 1: If they're using all three, that's some serial killer shit,
29:16
Speaker 1: it sure is.
29:18
Speaker 2: That's all I'm saying red flag. It is red flag exactly. Yeah,
29:22
Speaker 2: where's the red flag guy when I need him? He
29:26
Speaker 2: told the dispatcher he wanted to confess to a murder.
29:30
Speaker 2: When asked which murder, he said he had killed Nancy
29:34
Speaker 2: Moyer ten years ago.
29:37
Speaker 1: What.
29:38
Speaker 2: Yeah, he said he had felt tired of holding it inside.
29:44
Speaker 2: Roberts told the dispatcher his full name, his date of birth,
29:48
Speaker 2: and his address, which is an unusual level of self
29:53
Speaker 2: identification for a nine to one one call. And it
29:56
Speaker 2: just feels very deliberate, kind of.
29:58
Speaker 1: A little bit. It's another kind of eerie choice.
30:05
Speaker 3: Yeah, it makes me, well, I don't know, It just
30:07
Speaker 3: like makes me wonder was it actually him or was
30:10
Speaker 3: it like someone else pretending?
30:12
Speaker 2: Maybe him bakes the question. It begs a lot of questions,
30:17
Speaker 2: I would argue. The confession by Roberts came in July
30:22
Speaker 2: twenty nineteen, mid season, and while season one was still
30:27
Speaker 2: airing of the podcast Wow, the host James Bassinger Bassinger
30:35
Speaker 2: I don't know stays. A law enforcement source told him
30:39
Speaker 2: that Roberts specifically mentioned the podcast when he was questioned
30:44
Speaker 2: about his confession. So he was listening to the podcast
30:49
Speaker 2: about Nancy Moyer and it dug its way into his
30:54
Speaker 2: brain and pushed him to this confession.
30:58
Speaker 3: Allegedly, it's giving false confession vibes for sure.
31:03
Speaker 2: I don't know it kind of is giving yeah, false
31:08
Speaker 2: confession or just I don't know, it's giving hoax.
31:13
Speaker 1: Yeah.
31:15
Speaker 2: Later in October of that same year, Nancy's case was
31:19
Speaker 2: also selected for Crowdsolves, a true crime convention held in Seattle.
31:25
Speaker 2: So twenty nineteen is another really big year for her case,
31:30
Speaker 2: ten years after she disappeared. Now, let's talk about this guy,
31:36
Speaker 2: I guess if we have to. Roberts had worked with
31:42
Speaker 2: her at the Washington State Department of Ecology for years
31:46
Speaker 2: and had previously lived just down the road from her home.
31:51
Speaker 2: Nancy had reportedly been dating Roberts's nephew at the time
31:55
Speaker 2: of her disappearance. Oh, though Roberts denied having a really
32:00
Speaker 2: relationship with Nancy or that she had visited his home
32:03
Speaker 2: in the early days of the investigation.
32:06
Speaker 1: Okay, so lie, so lie, It sounds like potentially lie
32:14
Speaker 1: a lot.
32:15
Speaker 2: He also had a documented history of domestic violence, including
32:20
Speaker 2: an outstanding warrant for fourth degree domestic violence at the
32:24
Speaker 2: time of his arrests. A former girlfriend described a jeckle
32:30
Speaker 2: and hide personality, and said he became violent when he drank,
32:36
Speaker 2: sometimes choking her during sex to the point where she
32:39
Speaker 2: had to struggle, scratching and clawing at him to get
32:43
Speaker 2: him to stop.
32:45
Speaker 1: God, that's horrific. It's really horrendous.
32:50
Speaker 2: At that point, I'm thinking to myself, like whether or
32:54
Speaker 2: not he did anything to hurt Nancy, he's clearly a monster.
32:59
Speaker 1: Yeah.
33:01
Speaker 2: That same former girlfriend also reportedly told investigators that after
33:06
Speaker 2: Nancy's disappearance, Roberts poured a large concrete pad in the
33:11
Speaker 2: rear of his property with plans to either build a
33:15
Speaker 2: fort for his son or a man cave for himself.
33:20
Speaker 2: She thought that was a bit odd because no utilities
33:23
Speaker 2: ran to that area of the property. A separate informant
33:28
Speaker 2: confirmed the concrete structure and noted that after it was poured,
33:34
Speaker 2: the gatherings and camping that used to happen on Robert's
33:38
Speaker 2: land stopped entirely. Hmm. So it was like, I don't know,
33:45
Speaker 2: speculate wildly, but I don't know if I had a
33:48
Speaker 2: body that I had hidden on my property, even if
33:51
Speaker 2: it was under a cement pad.
33:54
Speaker 1: I might not want people poking around.
33:57
Speaker 3: Just the thought, Yeah, No, definitely not Like I hate
34:01
Speaker 3: a concrete slab.
34:02
Speaker 1: It's not my favorite. It's not great.
34:05
Speaker 3: Just a random, a random one, you know, like it's yeah,
34:08
Speaker 3: it feels never good.
34:10
Speaker 2: It takes me back to Ashley and Miranda.
34:15
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
34:17
Speaker 2: She also said Roberts had admitted to her that he
34:21
Speaker 2: had a sexual relationship with Nancy, something that again we
34:27
Speaker 2: already know he denied to police, and that when her
34:31
Speaker 2: mother asked about Nancy's disappearance, Roberts became upset and said,
34:38
Speaker 2: what are you the fucking police?
34:41
Speaker 3: I mean no, but like kind of important because her
34:45
Speaker 3: daughter is missing, Like.
34:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, just have some follow up questions for you if
34:52
Speaker 2: that's cool.
34:54
Speaker 1: Wow.
34:55
Speaker 2: Roberts had denied everything from the beginning. When detectives first
34:59
Speaker 2: and reviewed him in May two thousand and nine, just
35:02
Speaker 2: weeks after Nancy disappeared, he told them he and Nancy
35:06
Speaker 2: were friendly at work, but she had never been to
35:09
Speaker 2: his home. When detective Mickey Hamilton arrived to his home
35:14
Speaker 2: on Sheldon Lane and interviewed Roberts in a squad car,
35:18
Speaker 2: he was visibly distressed, crying, clenching and unclenching his fists,
35:23
Speaker 2: wringing his hands. So this is we're fast forwarding to
35:28
Speaker 2: twenty nineteen. This is right after the nine to one
35:31
Speaker 2: one call. This conversation was recorded in part and presented
35:37
Speaker 2: contradictory statements about the events surrounding Nancy's death. The thing
35:43
Speaker 2: about that that kind of puts me off is sometimes
35:47
Speaker 2: a killer will present conflicting stories for so many different reasons,
35:53
Speaker 2: and then sometimes somebody who's just maybe a little unhinged
35:58
Speaker 2: and in toxic will present differing accounts of events.
36:04
Speaker 1: I don't know what to think.
36:06
Speaker 3: Right, Well, if you're like Jekyl and hiding, like you
36:08
Speaker 3: may remember.
36:10
Speaker 2: Yeah, and maybe you don't remember because you don't know
36:14
Speaker 2: what happened, like you had nothing to do with it.
36:17
Speaker 2: I really don't know which way to go on this one.
36:21
Speaker 2: I feel like it looks really damning, but he's not
36:25
Speaker 2: the only one where it's like, you know, it looks damning.
36:29
Speaker 2: It doesn't look good, But I don't really have anything
36:33
Speaker 2: that's conclusive, if that makes sense.
36:35
Speaker 1: Yeah.
36:36
Speaker 2: His initial account was that he had simply reacted when
36:40
Speaker 2: Nancy attacked him. The alleged attack, he said, possibly having
36:45
Speaker 2: occurred near the Shehelis River, So you know that she
36:49
Speaker 2: attacked you, But the fact that it possibly having occurred
36:53
Speaker 2: near the Shahelis River. Just like, how much of this
36:56
Speaker 2: foggy recollection are we supposed to actually give any cree to?
37:01
Speaker 1: It was so weird. When asked why he didn't seek
37:05
Speaker 1: help after she went unresponsive, he said he had freaked
37:08
Speaker 1: out and didn't think he had working phones at the time.
37:13
Speaker 3: Okay, but eventually you get to a place where your
37:15
Speaker 3: phone does work.
37:17
Speaker 1: Right, exactly.
37:18
Speaker 2: That was exactly the same thought that I had. I
37:21
Speaker 2: was like, but surely at some.
37:23
Speaker 1: Point in between then and now you had an opportunity. Yeah.
37:28
Speaker 2: And you've been interviewed obviously as one of her coworkers. Yeah,
37:35
Speaker 2: I just I don't I obviously the fact that they
37:39
Speaker 2: work together. That is the other piece, because we know
37:43
Speaker 2: that she dropped off a coworker the night of her disappearance. Yeah,
37:47
Speaker 2: it's unclear if he was the co worker, but if
37:51
Speaker 2: he was, that kind of adds another element to this.
37:54
Speaker 2: It's another layer. After providing this initial account, he asked
37:59
Speaker 2: to techs to stop recording before shifting his demeanor becoming
38:05
Speaker 2: more relaxed, eventually turning to Detective Hamilton, and then his
38:12
Speaker 2: story changed.
38:14
Speaker 1: He told the detective that he had.
38:16
Speaker 2: Killed Nancy at his house, that they had been having
38:20
Speaker 2: rough sex and that he had accidentally strangled her with
38:25
Speaker 2: a scarf.
38:26
Speaker 3: Oh my god, and looks like a completely different scenario.
38:32
Speaker 3: Mm hmmm, what is happening?
38:35
Speaker 2: He said he had been drunk or high at the time.
38:38
Speaker 2: I mean, two things can be true. You could have
38:40
Speaker 2: been both. But are you unsure? I just don't understand,
38:46
Speaker 2: Like what. When asked where they could find Nancy's body,
38:51
Speaker 2: Roberts asked if they wanted.
38:53
Speaker 1: To take a walk. No, but yes.
38:57
Speaker 2: He led detectives to the back of his proper, where
39:00
Speaker 2: a concrete fire pit was located. He stood staring at
39:05
Speaker 2: it without speaking. When asked about it directly, he said,
39:09
Speaker 2: I don't really want to incriminate myself any further, but
39:13
Speaker 2: if I was going to get rid of a body
39:15
Speaker 2: on my property, it would be right there, and pointed
39:18
Speaker 2: to the fire pit. Like can you just fucking say it?
39:22
Speaker 2: You got damn pussy like or you ball sack? You know, Like, yeah,
39:26
Speaker 2: just say it, you're already saying it.
39:29
Speaker 1: Just say it. Just speak plainly. I don't know.
39:33
Speaker 2: I'm not sure if this is some sort of a
39:35
Speaker 2: dissociative episode. I don't I really don't know. What to
39:39
Speaker 2: make of it, and it's super frustrating. Roberts also told
39:44
Speaker 2: detectives he did not believe Nancy's body would ever be found,
39:48
Speaker 2: but indicated they should search his basement and the area
39:53
Speaker 2: around the fire pit. He said he had burned the scarf,
39:57
Speaker 2: but he also said that he had kept her close.
40:01
Speaker 2: The Thurston County Sheriff's office and the FBI searched Robert's
40:05
Speaker 2: property for two days. They collected evidence sent for forensic testing,
40:11
Speaker 2: but they did not find Nancy.
40:14
Speaker 1: What the fuck.
40:16
Speaker 2: The following day, Roberts recanded, telling investigators he wasn't sure
40:21
Speaker 2: why he'd said that he killed Nancy Moyer. Though he
40:24
Speaker 2: was arrested on suspicion of second degree murder and held
40:28
Speaker 2: on one point five million dollars bail, prosecutors reduced bail
40:33
Speaker 2: within days and announced they would not file murder charges
40:37
Speaker 2: until the investigation was complete. Roberts was briefly held on
40:42
Speaker 2: a federal firearms charge after seventeen guns were found in
40:47
Speaker 2: his residence during the search.
40:50
Speaker 1: That seems excessive, seems like a I don't know.
40:54
Speaker 2: That might be it's a little bit of an arsenal,
40:56
Speaker 2: might be unnecessary, but the charge was later dismissed when
41:01
Speaker 2: the weapon in question was found not to meet the
41:04
Speaker 2: legal definition of an illegal firearm.
41:09
Speaker 1: I don't know what that means, and I hate it.
41:13
Speaker 3: Can we arrest him for just wasting everyone's time? Maybe too,
41:17
Speaker 3: That would be fantastic.
41:19
Speaker 2: He was then briefly rearrested on a pre existing fourth
41:23
Speaker 2: degree domestic violence warrant from Snahomish County before that charge
41:28
Speaker 2: was also dropped.
41:30
Speaker 1: I hate this, I really hate it.
41:33
Speaker 2: So we're just charging him with things and hoping that
41:36
Speaker 2: something is gonna stick. And I get that. Sometimes that's
41:39
Speaker 2: just that, it's just the way we gotta go. You know,
41:42
Speaker 2: we got al capone for tax evasion and racketeering, right,
41:48
Speaker 2: I get it.
41:49
Speaker 3: But something has to happen to this guy, like something,
41:53
Speaker 3: get him for something something.
41:56
Speaker 2: Clearly, even if he didn't murder Nancy, he is not
42:00
Speaker 2: an awesome dude. On July thirty first, twenty nineteen, Eric
42:05
Speaker 2: Lee Roberts was released from custody. No murder charges have
42:10
Speaker 2: ever been filed against him. He has never been charged
42:13
Speaker 2: in connection with Nancy Moyer's disappearance. As of the most
42:17
Speaker 2: recent verified reporting, he remains free and the investigation remains open.
42:25
Speaker 2: When Season four of Hide and Seek premiered in October
42:29
Speaker 2: of twenty twenty four, it focused primarily on the March
42:33
Speaker 2: twenty twenty three disappearance of Shane Barton. However, returning to
42:38
Speaker 2: Thurston County the location of both disappearances allowed for follow
42:44
Speaker 2: up on Nancy's case as well, But where the case
42:48
Speaker 2: stands nobody, no charges, a family still waiting, though Roberts
42:56
Speaker 2: was held on probable cause no charges wherever formally filed
43:04
Speaker 2: damn not for murder. All these years, her loved ones
43:08
Speaker 2: have tried to continue on in their forever fractured lives,
43:12
Speaker 2: still hoping for answers and perhaps one day justice. Nancy's
43:18
Speaker 2: case is now being actively investigated by the Thurston County
43:22
Speaker 2: Sheriff's Office dedicated cold case unit, established in June twenty
43:29
Speaker 2: twenty four.
43:29
Speaker 3: Oh wow, just like two years ago.
43:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's I think that's another kind of parallel
43:36
Speaker 2: to the Lindsay baumb case too, where it's like, you know,
43:40
Speaker 2: a recently established cold case unit. I'm into those. Help,
43:45
Speaker 2: I know, hopeful I dig it Nancy's physical description for reference.
43:53
Speaker 2: She was five feet tall, approximately one hundred and fifteen
43:57
Speaker 2: to one hundred and twenty pounds. She had dark brown
44:00
Speaker 2: hair and brown eyes. She had ear and naval piercings,
44:05
Speaker 2: a total of seven tattoos, including hibiscus flowers on her
44:09
Speaker 2: left hip and two cherries with the initials A. N
44:15
Speaker 2: S on her right foot for her daughters, I really
44:20
Speaker 2: like her, as well as the scar on her right knee.
44:26
Speaker 2: Anyone with information is asked to contact the Thurston County
44:30
Speaker 2: Sheriff's Office at three six zero seven eight six five
44:35
Speaker 2: five zero zero. There is currently a five thousand dollars
44:39
Speaker 2: reward for information in the case, and we're going to
44:43
Speaker 2: put information about where you can reach out with tips
44:48
Speaker 2: in the show notes. Of course, there's an email address
44:51
Speaker 2: that you can reach out to the cold case unit
44:55
Speaker 2: if you don't want to call. I hate getting on
44:58
Speaker 2: the phone for any reason. It's just so heartbreaking because
45:04
Speaker 2: it seems like as we've talked about, like the people
45:07
Speaker 2: that were considered persons of interest, you know, Howl the
45:12
Speaker 2: third and Roberts, both of them, it just you know,
45:18
Speaker 2: it starts to as it starts to unravel.
45:22
Speaker 1: We are like it looks it looks good.
45:25
Speaker 2: They look good for it, right, you know, Proximity is
45:28
Speaker 2: a really it's really compelling. I would say Roberts is obviously,
45:33
Speaker 2: between the two of them, the more compelling person of interest.
45:36
Speaker 2: And again I just, you know, I want to say, obviously,
45:40
Speaker 2: neither of them has ever been charged in connection with
45:43
Speaker 2: the case, but both of those, both of these mayon
45:49
Speaker 2: they definitely, you know, it's throwing up a really a.
45:56
Speaker 1: A blaring red flag. It's awful.
46:00
Speaker 2: And I feel like, for whatever reason, Thurston County seems
46:06
Speaker 2: like for you know, it seems like overall it you know,
46:11
Speaker 2: has some small towns, it's feels like it's relatively rural
46:17
Speaker 2: in a lot of that area. Like, how are we
46:22
Speaker 2: having so many people disappearing? And in a span of
46:27
Speaker 2: you know, roughly eighteen months, the Vanda Boone case and
46:30
Speaker 2: Nancy's disappearance and then spoiler alert, you know, the other
46:36
Speaker 2: case that they're talking about on season four of Hide
46:40
Speaker 2: and Seek, And I actually I have another case that
46:45
Speaker 2: I think I'm looking at in Thurston.
46:47
Speaker 1: County right now.
46:49
Speaker 2: What in the actual fuck is going on in I mean,
46:53
Speaker 2: Pierce County is a big one too, for the state
46:56
Speaker 2: of Washington, but what the actual fuck is happening in
46:59
Speaker 2: Thurston County based on the population, Like y'all.
47:04
Speaker 1: What is going on. It is a little concerning, like weird.
47:10
Speaker 3: Stuff is going on too, Like this isn't this isn't
47:14
Speaker 3: normal things that we usually hear about.
47:17
Speaker 1: No, I feel like it's a lot of weird stuff.
47:25
Speaker 3: I feel like we need to do some taro and
47:27
Speaker 3: like just get this weirdness out of our system.
47:32
Speaker 1: Yeah.
47:33
Speaker 2: I've got the altar all set up and I did
47:38
Speaker 2: a little pre shuffle and then I've had the cards
47:40
Speaker 2: hanging out on the selenite plate here for the last
47:44
Speaker 2: couple of hours. So I feel like we're doing everything
47:48
Speaker 2: we can to put the right vibes into this.
47:52
Speaker 3: Yeah, sending vibes. Can we not pull a card about
47:56
Speaker 3: the guy who sexually assaults dead people? Dead people? That
48:01
Speaker 3: would be great, poor innocent women who have passed on
48:07
Speaker 3: who don't need to be violated.
48:08
Speaker 2: Further seriously, Okay, I'm gonna fan the deck out. Let
48:15
Speaker 2: me know what region of the deck you feel like
48:20
Speaker 2: is calling to you. I've got it spread out in
48:23
Speaker 2: front of my keyboard. So if a number or a
48:26
Speaker 2: letter X oh interesting, okay, oh wow, Okay, So I'm
48:34
Speaker 2: keeping an eye on the spot kind of where I
48:37
Speaker 2: pulled this from, just in case, because I kind of
48:40
Speaker 2: was torn between two cards.
48:43
Speaker 1: Oh so just to be safe, but and I don't
48:47
Speaker 1: know how well you're gonna be able to see this.
48:48
Speaker 3: On Oh okay, it's the one with the the oyster.
48:53
Speaker 1: Yeah. Nine of Cups.
48:56
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh look at you. Okay, I did a good
48:58
Speaker 2: job zooming get into you did. But we pulled it
49:05
Speaker 2: in the reverse, which makes sense because cups is such
49:08
Speaker 2: a positive suit that I feel like it must be
49:13
Speaker 2: sometimes I don't know, yeah, that's true, always always, And
49:18
Speaker 2: there's elements, like you know, we pull from from so
49:23
Speaker 2: many random.
49:24
Speaker 1: Like aspects of a card. So okay, So nine of
49:28
Speaker 1: Cups are keywords are oh this actually this first one
49:33
Speaker 1: kind of makes me want to cry a little bit.
49:37
Speaker 1: Wishes come true.
49:39
Speaker 2: Oh and I feel like there are probably a lot
49:42
Speaker 2: of people that if they had one wish it would
49:44
Speaker 2: be that this case would be solved.
49:47
Speaker 1: Yeah.
49:48
Speaker 3: I know, like at least two people who really need
49:52
Speaker 3: that and want that.
49:54
Speaker 1: Yeah.
49:55
Speaker 2: Good luck, Happiness, abundance, and generosity. Often called the wish card,
50:03
Speaker 2: the nine of Cups is one of the most fortunate
50:06
Speaker 2: of all cards and boats well in any reading. Some
50:10
Speaker 2: decks show a wealthy person, perhaps a tavern owner or
50:13
Speaker 2: innkeeper sharing his or her largest with others filling their cups.
50:20
Speaker 1: The two wine glasses.
50:22
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, oh it is interesting, we got cups.
50:27
Speaker 2: Yeah that okay, that makes so much sense. Reversed the
50:31
Speaker 2: nine of cups can indicate indulgence, excess, and or smugness
50:37
Speaker 2: about your riches. This card may also mean your errors
50:43
Speaker 2: are revealed, especially if your gains were ill gotten.
50:47
Speaker 1: Ooooh.
50:49
Speaker 2: In some cases, it shows you turning away from the
50:53
Speaker 2: material world to follow a spiritual path. In a reading
50:58
Speaker 2: about money, the reverse nine may show you're spending more
51:02
Speaker 2: than you make, or that you're pouring too much money
51:05
Speaker 2: into a venture. Or it may reveal errors and judgment
51:09
Speaker 2: related to a financial matter.
51:12
Speaker 3: Uh okay, So this whole time, it was fucking reminding
51:15
Speaker 3: me about the guy who.
51:16
Speaker 1: I didn't want to pull the card about, who said
51:19
Speaker 1: that he took the.
51:22
Speaker 3: Deceased woman because he didn't want the family to pay
51:25
Speaker 3: for the funeral.
51:26
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I'm so glad that you remember that.
51:30
Speaker 2: I wasn't making that connection at all at all.
51:35
Speaker 3: Ugh.
51:36
Speaker 2: If the reading is about your job, this card may
51:40
Speaker 2: mean you're playing when you should be working. Perhaps you
51:44
Speaker 2: think you can rest on your laurels, but that's a mistake.
51:48
Speaker 2: Sometimes it suggests you've gained through questionable means or by
51:53
Speaker 2: allying yourself with unscrupulous people. It's so interesting that, like
51:58
Speaker 2: the finance piece of this is so prevalent, and she
52:02
Speaker 2: was literally working as a financial analyst in Yeah. Yeah,
52:08
Speaker 2: So I just wonder if you know, she's like aligned
52:12
Speaker 2: herself with you know, this person that she works with,
52:16
Speaker 2: and that is it feels like maybe it's pointing in
52:20
Speaker 2: that direction.
52:21
Speaker 1: I don't want to overstate that.
52:23
Speaker 3: But yeah, I mean, obviously we don't know. It's just
52:25
Speaker 3: terar open.
52:26
Speaker 1: Yeah.
52:27
Speaker 2: In a reading about love, the reverse nine can indicate frivolousness, promiscuity,
52:33
Speaker 2: or insensitivity in relationships. In some cases, it warns and
52:38
Speaker 2: indiscretion may come to light.
52:41
Speaker 3: There's a few indiscretions happening with these national sexual endeavors.
52:48
Speaker 2: To say the least. There is an extra excerpt and
52:52
Speaker 2: it's really short. But nature is held together by the
52:58
Speaker 2: energy of love. I think we're both just like almost
53:04
Speaker 2: speechless because I feel like, I don't know, I want
53:08
Speaker 2: to believe that, like the nature of the natural world,
53:13
Speaker 2: the of the universe is that you know, love and
53:18
Speaker 2: people like caring about this case will be enough to
53:22
Speaker 2: at some point draw it to a conclusion.
53:25
Speaker 3: Yeah. Oh man, Now I'm curious about the other card
53:30
Speaker 3: you were torn in grabbing. I'll pull it out.
53:35
Speaker 1: It's your card.
53:37
Speaker 3: Oh the fool. There's some fools up in this story
53:42
Speaker 3: as well.
53:45
Speaker 2: We drew it up right, So I'll read this one.
53:48
Speaker 2: I don't I feel like I'm not. I'm not necessarily
53:52
Speaker 2: as drawn to this. That's why we ended up with
53:54
Speaker 2: the other card. Okay, let's see I was raly.
53:59
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that may make sense. Keywords are innocence, beginnings, trust, hope, opportunity.
54:09
Speaker 3: I was gonna say, it reminds me, just from what
54:11
Speaker 3: I know of the card, like maybe she blindly trusted
54:15
Speaker 3: someone she shouldn't have.
54:17
Speaker 2: You know, Oh god, that's exactly what I'm getting right now,
54:21
Speaker 2: because I mean, I think we know broad strokes what
54:24
Speaker 2: this card kind of means, but the interpretation. When the
54:29
Speaker 2: fool appears in a reading, it usually means you're about
54:32
Speaker 2: to embark on a new way of life, starting fresh. Yeah,
54:38
Speaker 2: you're open to new experiences and to discovering what lies
54:42
Speaker 2: around the bend. Even if you're not sure about the
54:45
Speaker 2: path you've chosen, you have faith that everything will turn
54:48
Speaker 2: out well. You probably feel out of sync with the
54:51
Speaker 2: rest of the world, but in a good way. You
54:54
Speaker 2: hear the beat of a different drummer and you're ready
54:57
Speaker 2: to march to it. In a reading about money, the
55:00
Speaker 2: full urges caution. You may be too trusting or you
55:04
Speaker 2: may be naive when it comes to handling financial matters.
55:08
Speaker 2: This card can also represent the stage the first stage
55:12
Speaker 2: of a business or investment. Examine details carefully, pay attention
55:18
Speaker 2: to your intuition, not only logic. If the reading is
55:22
Speaker 2: about your work, the fool can indicate starting a new job,
55:25
Speaker 2: project or business venture, beginning a course of study, or
55:29
Speaker 2: going on a business trip. Honestly, it's giving very like
55:33
Speaker 2: obviously it's you know, all about kind of regeneration and
55:38
Speaker 2: like it's very fresh, fresh start energy. Yeah, you're looking
55:44
Speaker 2: forward to this adventure or new direction and its possibilities.
55:48
Speaker 2: Embrace the opportunity with an open mind. You have a
55:51
Speaker 2: lot to learn.
55:53
Speaker 3: And I feel like it's her energy for sure, Like
55:56
Speaker 3: that's what she, yeah, was wanting, That's what she had
55:59
Speaker 3: and someone just took it from her.
56:02
Speaker 2: That's that's kind of the vibe that I'm feeling as well.
56:07
Speaker 2: In a reading about love. This card often means beginning
56:10
Speaker 2: a romance or moving into a new stage in an
56:13
Speaker 2: existing partnership. A new relationship may feel faded, as if
56:19
Speaker 2: you've met your soulmate. Enjoy this period of joy, openness,
56:23
Speaker 2: and excitement.
56:25
Speaker 3: I'm getting the like love bomb feeling like a little
56:29
Speaker 3: love bombing her right.
56:31
Speaker 2: Maybe there's an extra excerpt And it's also uh eloquent
56:37
Speaker 2: in its brevity, shall we say love it? The quest
56:41
Speaker 2: for meaning always takes us into the unknown. Wow, which
56:47
Speaker 2: is very eerie in life.
56:50
Speaker 3: Is yeah, because they like that's the whole thing. Is
56:54
Speaker 3: like they're trying to find what happened and like why
56:58
Speaker 3: and the meaning of it, but it's just unknown.
57:02
Speaker 2: It's really interesting because the fool in reverse is just
57:07
Speaker 2: to like super quickly skim. Some of the main points
57:14
Speaker 2: are an impulsive action could lead to a fall. Don't
57:20
Speaker 2: do this hastily. Think before you act, however, for you
57:24
Speaker 2: might regret. And this card can also warn you to
57:29
Speaker 2: look more closely at a partner or relationship. Things may
57:33
Speaker 2: not be what you think. It's very like it's cautionary vibes. Yeah,
57:38
Speaker 2: and it's really interesting.
57:42
Speaker 3: Well, that was some insight into a little a couple
57:44
Speaker 3: of little things that wasn't you know, like super right
57:48
Speaker 3: on like they are sometimes, But I feel like there
57:50
Speaker 3: were definitely elements that fit.
57:52
Speaker 1: Yeah.
57:53
Speaker 2: I don't feel like there was necessarily like the lightning
57:57
Speaker 2: rod that sometimes we feel with other cases, but it
58:03
Speaker 2: did feel like there were parts of that that really
58:06
Speaker 2: like clicked and made sense.
58:08
Speaker 3: Yeah, unless we're missing totally like missing something new creepy.
58:13
Speaker 3: People can comment on the things and tell us what
58:15
Speaker 3: you think. Yeah, absolutely, And as always, if you want
58:20
Speaker 3: to see the cards, you can go to our Instagram
58:22
Speaker 3: and we post pictures of them that we do.
58:26
Speaker 1: Because they're very beautiful.
58:27
Speaker 3: They're from the PNW deck She' party.
58:31
Speaker 1: Should we do our outro?
58:33
Speaker 3: Are you?
58:33
Speaker 1: Yeah? A bye byes?
58:35
Speaker 2: Are bye bye?
58:37
Speaker 1: Yeah.
58:38
Speaker 3: It's just I don't know for some reason, this one,
58:40
Speaker 3: Like I know, we talked about unsolved ones all the time,
58:43
Speaker 3: but this one's like leaving me with just such a
58:47
Speaker 3: like damn, like fuck, come on, especially with the false
58:51
Speaker 3: like confession guy.
58:53
Speaker 2: Yes, it feels like it's so close and I feel like,
58:56
Speaker 2: you know, Lindsey Baum, the last one that we talked
58:59
Speaker 2: about that was unsolved, and I don't like to do
59:02
Speaker 2: a bunch of unsolved stacked on top of each other typically,
59:06
Speaker 2: but like I do feel like part of me has
59:09
Speaker 2: been kind of drawn to them recently, just because it
59:12
Speaker 2: feels like it's meaningful.
59:16
Speaker 1: To talk about them.
59:17
Speaker 2: And I think every case there's like meaning that we
59:21
Speaker 2: can bring to, you know, the conversation around these cases.
59:26
Speaker 2: But I feel like unsolved there's something that you know,
59:31
Speaker 2: I kind of go through phases where I want to
59:34
Speaker 2: talk about unsolved.
59:36
Speaker 3: You know.
59:37
Speaker 2: I don't feel like I struggle with the illusion that
59:40
Speaker 2: like we're going to solve the case necessarily, but I
59:43
Speaker 2: just feel like it's all part of being a part
59:47
Speaker 2: of the conversation that like keeps these cases in people's
59:53
Speaker 2: minds and like keeps people talking about them and trying to.
59:57
Speaker 3: You just never know, like you really never know who's listening,
1:00:01
Speaker 3: or what could come up, or what could spark a memory,
1:00:04
Speaker 3: Like something dumb we say could like spark someone's memory,
1:00:07
Speaker 3: or I.
1:00:08
Speaker 2: Don't know, no, I mean truly, and that is honestly,
1:00:13
Speaker 2: like you know, I said, and I kind of only
1:00:17
Speaker 2: half jokingly earlier, but like, you know, oh, that's the
1:00:20
Speaker 2: dream about you know, our podcast, Like somehow even tangentially
1:00:27
Speaker 2: like stirring up a lead. But it's like ultimately like
1:00:31
Speaker 2: that is kind of like you do want to think
1:00:33
Speaker 2: that you're making a difference by talking about these stories.
1:00:38
Speaker 2: I don't know that I feel like I need to
1:00:40
Speaker 2: like get credit for it, like in that way. I mean,
1:00:46
Speaker 2: it would certainly be like an affirmation and it would
1:00:49
Speaker 2: make you feel like good, okay, like everything that we
1:00:53
Speaker 2: have done, all the work that we put into it,
1:00:55
Speaker 2: like it feels like worthwhile in this really meaningful way,
1:01:02
Speaker 2: like that has like shaped something important. But I think
1:01:08
Speaker 2: I'm happy just knowing that, Like the conversation, you know,
1:01:12
Speaker 2: it's kind of one of those things that's like it's it's.
1:01:15
Speaker 1: Not the destination, it's the journey. It's kind of similar
1:01:19
Speaker 1: to that that's.
1:01:19
Speaker 3: Like very fool card that is so cool card, Like
1:01:22
Speaker 3: that is like the epitome of the Forlord, Like it's
1:01:26
Speaker 3: the destination or it's the journey.
1:01:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, the destination.
1:01:29
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm like I'm happy knowing just that, Like you know,
1:01:33
Speaker 2: if there if there's anyone that's listening, you know, to
1:01:36
Speaker 2: the episode that you know we're that we're doing, and
1:01:39
Speaker 2: whether it's this case or another unsolved that we've talked about,
1:01:43
Speaker 2: Like part of me is just happy knowing if there
1:01:45
Speaker 2: are people that haven't heard the case before that are
1:01:50
Speaker 2: hearing it and they are, you know, thinking about it,
1:01:53
Speaker 2: and even if they're not local to the area, and
1:01:58
Speaker 2: you know, maybe they don't think in a million years
1:02:00
Speaker 2: that they're ever gonna know anything about the case.
1:02:02
Speaker 1: Like you just don't know. It's like a butterfly flaps its.
1:02:07
Speaker 2: Wings and like maybe you know maybe a year from
1:02:10
Speaker 2: now you're talking to somebody and like you just don't know.
1:02:14
Speaker 2: Like cases just get solved in these insane, tangential ways,
1:02:20
Speaker 2: like connections get made, and I just I want that.
1:02:25
Speaker 1: I want that.
1:02:26
Speaker 2: So so badly for for so many you know, of
1:02:33
Speaker 2: these people, you know that that we don't really know
1:02:37
Speaker 2: what's happened to them, and I want that for their
1:02:39
Speaker 2: for their families.
1:02:41
Speaker 1: And we do this every.
1:02:44
Speaker 2: Week, you know, we put out a new episode, and
1:02:48
Speaker 2: like when something becomes routine, I feel like there's always
1:02:52
Speaker 2: a little bit of a feeling that like it can
1:02:54
Speaker 2: become sort of like you can become a little blase
1:02:58
Speaker 2: about it, and I I don't know, I guess maybe
1:03:02
Speaker 2: part of me is just surprised that like that's not
1:03:06
Speaker 2: I'm still not really there yet, you know, like each
1:03:10
Speaker 2: of these kind of like hits me in a new
1:03:13
Speaker 2: like there's a little piece of me that like is
1:03:16
Speaker 2: like with each of these stories that you talked about.
1:03:21
Speaker 2: I don't know, maybe if we do like another, like
1:03:26
Speaker 2: we're like at like almost like two hundred and fifty episodes,
1:03:30
Speaker 2: like full episodes, Like maybe another two fifty, I won't
1:03:34
Speaker 2: like feel so personally and emotionally impacted every time.
1:03:39
Speaker 1: But don't I don't see it. I don't think I'm
1:03:42
Speaker 1: gonna get there. Probably not. I don't know. We're not robots. Yeah, yeah,
1:03:48
Speaker 1: I don't know.
1:03:49
Speaker 3: Oh, all right, well let's say goodbye and hope that
1:03:55
Speaker 3: we just put it out there and something happens.
1:03:57
Speaker 1: I know. I'm like, oh, that's to say, you put it,
1:04:01
Speaker 1: You put it very succinctly.
1:04:04
Speaker 3: Have a creepysday. We'll see you next Thursday. And I
1:04:08
Speaker 3: hope all the unsolved cases gets.
1:04:10
Speaker 1: Helved and stop making nine to one one calls on
1:04:13
Speaker 1: Cassie's birthday, you assholes.
1:04:16
Speaker 3: Stop fucking wasting police time seriously and like family hopes and.
1:04:23
Speaker 1: Like it's it's I just hate that. I hate it
1:04:26
Speaker 1: so much.
1:04:29
Speaker 2: And here's like part of me hates it because I'm
1:04:32
Speaker 2: like part of me thinks, like, was that just the hopes,
1:04:35
Speaker 2: And part of me hates it because I'm like, I
1:04:38
Speaker 2: think it was real and they haven't been able to
1:04:42
Speaker 2: like make anything real come from it.
1:04:45
Speaker 1: Yeah, And either way, I hate that.
1:04:48
Speaker 2: I hate that because either you did it and then
1:04:51
Speaker 2: you fucking chickened out in the eleventh hour, or you're
1:04:56
Speaker 2: just an asshole, like ambulance chaser type motherfucker who doesn't
1:05:02
Speaker 2: actually know anything and just wasted so many resources.
1:05:06
Speaker 1: Either way, I really kind of think this guy sucks.
1:05:10
Speaker 1: That's the takeaway. You wire men.
1:05:14
Speaker 3: Wire men.
1:05:17
Speaker 1: I think if we played a drinking game where all
1:05:21
Speaker 1: you had to do was drink when we said things
1:05:24
Speaker 1: like wire men or something similar, everybody would be ship
1:05:29
Speaker 1: faced by the end. Nobody would be driving.
1:05:32
Speaker 3: Let's put it in no way sleepover party, Let's go.
1:05:40
Speaker 1: Oh my god. Okay,