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Defeating Atheist Claims of Biblical Contradictions (part 1) · Relish: a Christian podcast

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  You're listening to thursday mornings with alex and
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  don team ad don is a pastor with
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  40 years experience and alex is just as
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  curious as you are we look at the most important and interesting questions about
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  the bible and christian faith so let's talk about it pastor don good morning
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  alex how you doing okay yeah you know he knows what's coming i have indications from a couple episodes
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  ago this one's gonna be fun yeah this one's gonna
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  be fun i do apologize i stuck an extra episode in
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  there but while we're courting we thought that with the the tough pride topic
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  episode straight to uh all right i have another heavy one defend the faith against
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  a huge like four or five pages worth of quote-unquote contradictions that are brought up by atheists.
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  We thought we'd sneak another one in there just to cleanse
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  the palate a little bit let the blood pressure go down
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  a tad or i don't know something but i i
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  think this will be extra coffee on this one well good
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  you might need it so this comes from a
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  proclaimed atheist website basically all
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  i did is i typed in a list of bible contradictions or something like that and
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  the first one that came up it was you know like the atheist archives or something
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  like that i don't remember exactly what it was i should have i probably should
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  have figured that out first um because maybe there's There's atheists out there
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  that are like, oh, those are... All of these are from one source.
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  One source. This is a list that they made up of where these two passages contradict
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  each other, and that is meaningful.
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  And I'll just read what it states on the top, because this is an article that
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  this website made that was taken from a, we'll say, big-time atheist.
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  And I didn't recognize his name, but he had quite a few books.
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  So they said, the contradiction. So it's a central dogma of all fundamental
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  Christians that the Bible is without error.
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  They teach this conclusion by reasoning, quote unquote, that God cannot be the
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  author of false meaning and he cannot lie.
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  Is this true? If you listen to, I should have read this as with the,
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  how I feel like it's being said, but is this true?
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  If written by a perfect being, then it must not contradict itself as a collection
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  of books Books written by different men at different times over many centuries
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  would be expected to contradict each other.
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  With this in mind, let's have a look at the Bible on several subjects.
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  Well, yeah, I'm not nervous at all. Okay, let's go for it.
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  So we'll see if these things actually do contradict or, what I assume,
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  are just taken out of context. Likely. Some of them. Mm-hmm.
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  All right, so the first one they give is the title Sabbath Day.
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  In Exodus 20, chapter 20, verse 8, it says, Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.
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  And all these are from King James, by the way. And then the next verse that
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  contradicts, it says, this is from Romans, chapter 14, verse 5.
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  One man esteemeth one day above another.
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  Another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
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  Yeah it's like two different totally different
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  contexts right what a deal yeah and and
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  what paul's addressing in romans 14
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  is that they were stressing out over okay
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  are we supposed to do this or are we supposed to do this and which is more important
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  right and partly what he's attributing that to is the fact that they don't know
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  yet and of course paul is writing romans without having having ever been there to a group that are,
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  he knows what some of the controversies are and this being one of them.
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  And so he's addressing it in such a way of saying, Hey guys,
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  chill, chill on these days thing so that you can get to the deeper root and
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  not make each other stumble.
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  The chief piece of that is they were contradict or not contradicting each other,
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  but they're putting each other down for not doing it like they do.
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  Oh, I see. And so they didn't want to become a stumbling block.
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  Paul's saying, don't become a stumbling block to those who are not yet mature in the faith.
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  I see. And so that's the context of Romans 14, whereas when you go back to Exodus 20,
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  that's calling a people out of slavery who've worked seven days a week,
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  who don't know what freedom is, they don't know what a day off is like,
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  and he's saying, keep it holy.
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  Just set aside one day in seven to acknowledge that I'm God. Yeah.
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  Is that too much to ask? Right. A people that you just gave freedom.
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  Right yeah okay yeah so i'm not sure where the contradiction is other than the fact that it's,
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  taking two passages out of a book totally removing them from context right yeah
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  i agree with that one the second one is the the permanence of earth okay in
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  ecclesiastes chapter one verse four it said the the earth abideth forever.
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  In 2 Peter 3, verse 10, it says, the elements shall melt with fervent heat.
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  The earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
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  And I go on to Revelation 20 and say there'll be a new earth, new heavens.
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  The old has passed away. That's Revelation chapter 21.
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  For Solomon in Ecclesiastes.
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  His concept of earth will be for as long as we are.
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  So that eternally is as long as any of us will ever be.
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  The second piece is that the new earth, it doesn't mean it's the refreshed, done all over again.
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  But we know that in Revelation chapter 21, it's a whole different ball of wax.
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  I mean, even the light is different. the the
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  days are different because of the
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  newness of them and and peter was alluding to that piece right yeah so eternity
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  according to solomon yeah he earth will be here a long long long long time yeah
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  i think the context is important i did make some notes on this one in particular.
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  From what i found is like and you tell me if this you think this is correct
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  or not but like Like Ecclesiastes is a book of wisdom literature that often
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  has a little bit of poetic and philosophical language.
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  Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't really get down to the point to the last chapter. Yeah.
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  Just kind of reflecting on the human condition, nature of existence.
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  And then that's kind of how it starts, too. It's not a normal way that,
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  you know, it's not, you know, dear friends over in this church or anything like that.
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  So it is more of like a human thing. So maybe we would see that as a,
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  you know, the earth's always going to be here. Don't worry about the earth.
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  Yeah. That's the proper context. And then second, Peter, I mean,
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  we've talked about before how, you know, is Revelations literal or,
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  you know, is it, you know, apocalyptic imagery?
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  Is it a metaphor? And sometimes it's like, well, yeah, both, both. So both end.
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  Not either or. Yeah. So I wouldn't call that one a contradiction necessarily. Right.
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  Like not even on face value. I wouldn't say that's contradiction.
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  The next one, and just so you know, I haven't been through these either,
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  so we'll see. Except for that one. Next one is called Seeing God.
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  We have Genesis 32, 30. I have seen God face to face and my life is preserved.
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  And then John chapter 1, verse 18. Is that Enoch?
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  That's Genesis 32, chapter 30. Okay. So, seeing God's face to face. Okay.
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  And my life is preserved. Who would that have been talking? Well,
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  it's either Abraham or Enoch, and I'm trying to think who.
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  Unless they referenced who that was. Genesis 30? Oh.
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  32, verse 30. 32, 30. We're looking it up. What do we got? Oh, okay. So, it's Jacob.
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  Because I saw God face to face and yet my life was spared.
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  And so that makes a difference as to whether he's wrestling with God or an angel
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  of God that night. Right.
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  And when he described what happened when he was wrestling, did he even say in
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  the description that he saw him face to face?
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  I thought it wasn't until afterwards that he had said. It's not until after. Right.
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  That he realized that he had been wrestling with God.
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  Actually, it's when the entity corrects him in 28, your name will no longer
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  be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome.
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  So that's almost a life verse. i mean
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  when you think of jacob's life and all he went through your name
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  will no longer be jacob but israel because you have
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  struggled with god and with men and have overcome and that's what israel means
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  he struggled with god now does that mean literally or figuratively right i mean
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  we've had our wrestling with god sure but not physically i would never describe
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  it the way he did no huh Uh-uh. No. No, not at all.
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  He described that he thought he might have damaged God.
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  Right? Yeah. And the idea that he actually wore him out overnight,
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  I mean, really, just get real.
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  That's why most of us would say that it was an angel of God. Okay.
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  Representative, rather than God himself. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
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  So what's the other? Oh, the other one was John 1, verse 18.
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  No man hath seen God at any time, dot, dot, dot. Right.
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  And there's other places where God would hold his hand over.
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  You could see him go on, but you couldn't see his face. Right.
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  And we have that of Moses.
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  I guess I'd have to say this isn't really a contradiction. I'm not sure we saw. Well...
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  I hate to say this of Jacob, but he was a liar. Yeah.
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  And for him to say he saw God face to face, sort of a stretch on this one. Yeah.
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  Yeah, I can agree with that. But that is a good example of a contradiction that
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  we have to say that, oh, yeah, this person was lying.
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  I'm not sure that that's a good... Not a good characterization, is it? No, it's not.
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  So, I mean, it'd be very disingenuous to then to go try to figure out,
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  or someone would see this as being disingenuous.
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  From the atheist perspective, if then we're going to be like,
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  okay, so how are we going to fix this?
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  But if I go through scripture, not seeing the face of God and being prohibited
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  from seeing the face of God, Moses saw the glory of God and carried that glory
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  down off the mountain to the extent that people couldn't stand to look at him.
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  And they said, please put a veil over your face because we can't handle this.
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  And so that being the case in Moses' time, and then going back to Jacob's time
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  and saying, well, I saw God face-to-face, this stands out as a one time, if only.
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  Right. And then you look through the rest of the Testament, I'd more apt to agree with John 1.18.
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  Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of evidence of everyone else not seeing God face-to-face
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  and living. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
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  Let's see. Human sacrifice. Mm-hmm. Okay. There's three of them here, actually.
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  First one is from Leviticus 18, verse 21.
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  Thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech.
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  Neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God. Mm-hmm. Okay.
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  Boy, I'm not sure if I even understood that one.
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  Yeah, okay. Okay. Okay, so, and then the next one is Judges chapter 11, 30 to 31.
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  Right. So this one is in quotes, or in parentheses, in Judges,
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  though the tale of Japheth, Japheth's daughter,
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  Japheth, oh, who led the Israelites amongst, against the Ammonites is being told.
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  Being fearful of defeat, this good religious man sought to guarantee victory
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  by getting God firmly on his side, so he prayed to God.
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  If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands,
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  then it shall be that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet
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  me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the Lord's,
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  and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.
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  Are you understanding me when I read these things? I know the passage.
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  Okay. And then the last one is Judges 11, 29 through 34.
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  Can you read that one out of the NIV? Really? You want me to?
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  Oh, my goodness. Then the Spirit of the Lord came on Japheth.
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  He crossed the Gilead and Manasseh, and from there he advanced against the Ammonites.
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  And Japheth made a vow to the Lord, if you give the Ammonites into my hands,
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  whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph
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  from the Ammonites will be the Lord's, and I will sacrifice it as a bird offering.
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  You don't remember his story? Mm-mm. Well, I know I remember.
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  I'm just trying to figure out how there's contradiction there.
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  Well, according to that he did offer, but it was his sin.
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  It was in his sin that he did that. Can you clarify what the claim is here that they're making?
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  They're saying that God said that there will... I don't see the contradiction.
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  So in Leviticus, it's saying that they're not going to let any of...
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  Of thy seed pass through the fire. So any of the children fire to Moloch.
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  That was a major thing all through Baal worship as well. Oh, yeah.
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  And they would offer their kids firstborn and human sacrifice or genocide, infanticide.
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  And that was worship. Right. This is, Jephthah, he made a rash statement.
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  I mean, this is pride coming out. Sure.
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  It says, okay, I will give you, Lord, whatever comes out of the door of my house.
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  If you'll give me victory, boy, let's go at it, Lord. Oh, I see. Okay.
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  And the Lord chases him by his daughter coming out of the house.
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  It really doesn't say that he went ahead and burnt his daughter. Okay.
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  It's assumed that he did. and that's why every year there is a celebration of
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  the girl who was sacrificed to fulfill his vow.
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  But it's a really sad story that he was so brazen.
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  And so prideful that he would even offer to offer his sacrifice or his daughter.
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  Granted, he didn't know what was going to come out of the door first,
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  but he was going to give first fruits of whatever came.
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  That's how much he was coming before the Lord and saying, give me victory.
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  And the Lord gave him victory.
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  Man. So the Lord, but isn't that the Lord saying, watch your tongue, bud.
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  Isn't that a contradiction though? If there's going to be,
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  child human sacrifice right it is it is okay but it's not the lord that said
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  that this sacrifice should even happen oh i see this came from the from a man
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  who was sort of full of himself and,
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  rashly spoke okay so i think it even in the passage of leviticus when it says
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  thou shalt not let any of the seed
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  pass through the fire to moloch neither shall i profane the name of god,
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  so if we're saying god is doing it wouldn't that be refaining in the name of god okay.
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  Yeah i'm having a hard time with that one it's a rough one it's a rough passage period,
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  yeah so all right you want to move on to another one i wish you okay sorry guys
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  i didn't realize this was going to be a struggle as much as it is just to figure
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  out what the actual claim was and hopefully we'll just move on to move on well
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  but that's why it's messy to start with yeah yeah yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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  And that is kind of the nature of it, is that it's out of context,
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  a lot of things, and maybe some of these won't be.
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  And part of it is, you can list it on a website and say, well,
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  these are contradictions.
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  And to the uncerning mind who doesn't know Scripture, oh yeah,
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  here's a whole list of contradictions.
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  See, this is what, these are all contradictions. Well, unless you take it right
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  back to the text, you really don't have a way of knowing what they are. Right.
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  Yeah. And this is one of those issues that it bothers me. It's like,
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  look at all the evidence we have.
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  And I'll let you know what this thing says that in conclusion,
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  at the very end, it is, I have no words to describe it, but it just hang in there.
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  Okay. All right. The next one, the power of God, Matthew 19,
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  26, with God, all things are possible. Okay.
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  Compare that to Judges chapter 1 verse 19 the lord was with judah and he drave
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  out the inhabitants of the mountain but could not drive out the inhabitants
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  of the valley because they had chariots of iron,
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  and was that a reflection of it's not possible for god to do oh because they
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  had chariots of iron couldn't do it through the israelites because they didn't
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  have oh is that what it is okay so So see, I, I look at that as,
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  you know, okay, I, I could cut through concrete if I had the right tool,
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  but without the right tool, I can't.
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  And Israel wasn't able to do that because they're chariots of iron.
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  But there's times in the past where God has been able to. Well, Gideon. Yeah.
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  I mean, he overcame thousands with 300. Yeah.
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  And so, yeah, it's interesting. But it's also interesting in that passage that
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  it's a limitation of technology.
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  Yes. Because the Israelites did not have iron. In fact, the Israelites didn't
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  have iron until Samuel's time.
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  Goodness gracious. So this is a lacking piece and points out technology.
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  So if God was with them, I mean, how is this not a contradiction then?
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  Would it be just not God's will?
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  He got rid of the inhabitants of the mountain. What's the passage in Judges? Judges 1, 19.
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  He got rid of the hapens in the mountain, but could not drive out the inhabitants
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  of the valley because they had chariots of iron.
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  But they were unable it's not like the lord
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  was not unable in in the king
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  james it may read like that but in the niv it reads the
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  lord was with the men of judah they took possession
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  of the hill country but they were unable to drive
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  the people of the plains out from the plains because
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  they had iron chariots and so
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  that is puts it on the
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  people for lacking the technology let's get
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  back to the hebrew all right pulling up
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  the and what is this app by the way my sword my
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  sword and this is this what's this
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  called the some uh some up some what am i thinking of what am i thinking of
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  i i'm i'm working on that what are you thinking of i don't know this would not
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  necessarily be septuagint that's what i was thinking of yeah okay and the lord
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  was with judah he drove out inhabitants from the mountain.
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  As is of the possessive, Yerosh. So what Don's doing right now is he's looking
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  up the original translation and seeing what, if there's a word in there,
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  that has been taken out of context.
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  I don't see the article that would say it was specifically God did not have the ability.
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  Right. The Lord was with them.
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  They took possession. I could go there rather than saying, Yeah,
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  I don't see an article that makes that possessive, that God could not.
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  Were they beaten by that army?
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  Not beaten as much as held off. Okay. And that, yeah. Okay.
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  In other places, what's interesting in other places as they reflect on this,
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  it's because they didn't have, they were given the directive to cleanse the land.
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  Right. and they left people in place that they shouldn't have left.
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  And so most often it's characterized that way rather than the Lord missing the boat on it.
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  And that's what you're saying, is that it's not necessarily that the Lord wasn't able to. Right.
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  Okay. Because that would certainly be a...
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  Contradiction. Contradiction. For sure.
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  But what Matthew says is with God. So if you are with God, all things are possible. Right.
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  So, the possibility of something, I would say, is not a contradiction to something happen.
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  If it's possible, it's possible it could have beat them. Right.
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  So, I have a hard time saying that that's a full contradiction,
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  because you then have to prove that it was God's intention that the people were
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  beating the, or that the Judah,
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  tribe of Judah was going to, he wanted them to beat the valley people. Right. Okay.
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  So, that one's simple. And we are at 24 minutes. Okay.
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  We could do a second on this. We'll do a second one, yeah.
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  So we'll do next week, but I'll still have Don pray us out.
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  And like I said, at the very end of this is a pretty interesting little thing
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  that I feel like you'd be interested in hearing. Cliffhanger!
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  Yeah, and this might end up being three episodes. We'll see.
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  All right. Will you pray us out, Don? Can do that. Thank you,
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  Lord, for this time together.
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  Thank you for this ministry. Thank you for our listeners.
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  Listeners and we pray lord that this is a blessing to those
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  who are listening as it's been a blessing for alex and i to be
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  together and we pray lord that you guide
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  us in every facet as we seek to live our lives for you in jesus name amen amen
• 22:50
  thanks for joining us everyone we'll continue this discussion and we'll see
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  you next week lord willing bye thanks again for joining us for this week's episode.
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  We are both having a ton of fun making these videos and episodes.
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  And if you're having fun too, please tell a friend about this and help us to grow this mission.
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  Thank you and God bless.