Latest / Beyond Labels Premium / Episode #116: Breaking News: New Animal Welfare & Organic Standards

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Episode #116: Breaking News: New Animal Welfare & Organic Standards · Beyond Labels Premium

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Have been raised with plenty of access to the real outdoors and in humane conditions.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: Well, let's talk about what the real outdoors is.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: What they these new standards allow is that chickens can be raised for egg layers, they can be raised in entire confinement in a factory house, no different than Tyson, for the first 16 weeks of their lives.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: Now they start laying at 20 weeks.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: So 16 weeks is you know basically from chick to starting to lay.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: And then after they go to laying houses, they can be locked up for an additional five weeks, quote, to get used to their nesting boxes.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: So this is complete factory housing for at least 21 weeks.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: Now think about this.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: So they've got little outdoor pop doors that they can go outside, but 25%, the first 25% of the outdoor access area can be concrete or gravel.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: Now, let me tell you something.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: A chicken does not like walking on gravel.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Beyond Labels.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Dr.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: Cena McKella, and I'm here with our favorite farmer, Joel Salatin.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: And today we have a special program.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: We're actually going to do a report on the latest news about what's happening with our food supply.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: We have two breaking stories that Joel's going to go into in great detail.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: The first is that the USDA has just published their new and allegedly improved organic livestock and poultry practices standards.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: We're going to be talking about why some organizations are claiming this is a win, but we don't see it that way.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: And the second breaking news comes out of a meeting from the National Organic Standard Board, and they have decided to allow something else into organic livestock production that Joel and I are not that happy about.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: So Joel, I hand it over to you.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: Enlighten us.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, so this is one of my uh one of my soap boxes, if you don't mind.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and I'll start.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: So so this is being um developed.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: Let's give credit where credit is due.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: Uh the organic eye is a watchdog organization.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: So there's there's kind of two, I'll just tell you, the the two kind of organic standard watchdog organizations that I that I am a member get their information is organic eye and the cornucopia group.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: One's in Wisconsin, one's in New England.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: And um and and and both of them have similar roots.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, one of the most commonality parts of them is Mark Castell.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: Mark Castell is the kind of senior researcher and and is now at Organic Eye.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: But let me let me just um um uh tell you what uh Tom Chapman, who is the uh CEO of the Organic Trade Association, has just said.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: He says the organic sector and organic consumers have been clamoring for stricter animal welfare standards for 20 years now, and the Organic Trade Association and its members have spearheaded that fight.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: These new standards not only create a more level playing field for organic producers, but they ensure consumers that the organic meat, poultry, dairy, and eggs they choose have been raised with plenty of access to the real outdoors and in humane conditions.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that sounds like a win.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: What's the problem?
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: It sounds like a big win.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so, all you folks out there that are depending on the organic label, let me tell you a little bit about what this this new uh standard is, because this has been my soapbox forever as a as what I call what we call ourselves a pastured uh poultry producer in in direct juxtaposition to um to the the factory farming system where we have portable portable hen houses as opposed to stationary, and the birds are actually on pasture, um uh except for right in the you know it right in the dead of winter, uh, when we bring them into some hoop some hoop houses uh for you know for their own protection for the weather.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: But um so this is the organic livestock and poultry standards.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: Uh the this is the this is the the that was been touted as a huge win.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: I want you to think about this.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um first of all, first of all, the industry is being given five years to comply with these standards.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: Five years, okay.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's a little bit like um several years ago when um when Burger King announced that they were gonna use cage-free eggs.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I got a call from uh the food writer from the Washington Post, called me and wanted to comment on this new, you know, big, wonderful breakthrough from Burger King.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we're gonna have uh and and and what they they said was that they would they would institute this policy, cage-free eggs, in 10 years.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: 10 years, and they were getting all this wonderful press.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, this is so wonderful, Burger King.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, you know, they're the greatest.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so when his food writer asked me about it, I said, 10 years, I said, we've got a Burger King, you know, 15 minutes from our house, been here for 10 years.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: They could have been getting uh, you know, pastured eggs way better than cage free, which is basically just a factory farm, but they're not in cages.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_00: They could have been getting them from us 10 years ago.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: Not only could they have gotten them 10 years ago, who needs 10 years?
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: They could be at them tomorrow, you know, and and and so so you know, this this kind of stuff is um, you know, it's between irritating and frustrating uh how how um duplicitous, how duplicitous the consuming public is to um to just that they see this report, this what this chairman, this this president said that I just said he, you know, uh have been raised with plenty of access to the real outdoors and in humane conditions.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: Well, let's talk about what the real outdoors is.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: So so the the what they these new standards allow is um that chickens can be raised for um let's see, for for for egg layers, they can be raised in entire confinement in a factory house, no different than Tyson, for the first 16 weeks of their lives.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: Now they start laying at 20 weeks.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: So 16 weeks is you know, basically from chick to to starting to lay.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: And then after they go to laying houses, they can be locked up for an additional five weeks, quote, to get used to their nesting boxes.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: So so this is complete factory housing for at least 21 weeks.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: Now think about this.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: The outside, so they're supposed to have access to pasture, so they've got little outdoor pop doors that they can go outside, but 25% of the um the first 25% of the outdoor access area can be concrete or gravel.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: Now, let me tell you something.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: A chicken does not like walking on gravel, they don't like walking on concrete.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: So, in other words, now think about this with me.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: You've got this this big factory house full of chickens, and you've got little little doors, like a little dog door that they can go out of, a few of them, you know, along.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: Now, remember, they haven't been outside now for 21 weeks of their life, okay, which is about 30% of their entire life.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: So they're completely mature, they're laying eggs, they've been in this environment for their whole life, and suddenly someone opens a few dog doors along the edge and says, now you can go out.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: But out is concrete and gravel, both of which hurt the chickens' feet.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: They don't want to walk in concrete and gravel, so they don't go out.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: But you know what?
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: They've got access to the outdoors, and so that complies with the organic rule that says they have to have access to the outdoors.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: But nobody goes outdoors because they don't want to go outdoors.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, uh, uh, I mean, it's it's like saying, it's like saying, um, uh, you can you can have candy bars.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: See, over there's an island over there.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: You can have candy bars over there, you can have all you want.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: All you have to do is swim through this moat of crocodiles, and you can have all the candy bars you want.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know, who's gonna go get candy bars?
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: Because you know, you're not gonna swim the moat with crocodiles in it.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, sorry, I'm getting all fired up about this.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: But actually, it depends on how desperate I am.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: I might I might take the risk, but how desperate you are.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: But but but you you see the point.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: What you have here is is the entire house is surrounded by a by a chicken unfriendly, unfriendly environment.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: And you're saying you could go out and have a blade of grass way over there if you if you go through here to a chicken that's never been outside a day in their life for the first 30% of their whole lives.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: So it's you know, it's just it's just um it's just insane.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: Broilers can be completely confined for the first four weeks of their lives, and they only live five to seven weeks in most industrial settings.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: So, so broilers can be completely confined for four weeks of their lives, which is generally about um 60 to 70 percent of their entire life.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: And then, oh, well, then you can go, you can go outside, but again, outside is not is not uh desirable, it is not a desirable place to go.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: So, so the fact that the industry is touting this as some sort of a uh whatever, uh, you know, a breakthrough um uh in in in the organic standards in complying with you know with outdoor access, with pasture, with green space, and even having more space to you know to run is is simply um it's it's absurd.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's just absurd.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: And it shows, Cena, how the um the the National Organic Standards Board, and we've reported about this in the past, how it's being taken over by industry people.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: Look, you know, when a when a nice little you know organic operation sells to you know to Purdue or Cargill or whatever, um whatever those those initial entrepreneurs developed is gonna get compromised.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: That's just the way it is.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: And what you have here, and of course it comes back to why I said from the very beginning, decades ago when the organic standards were started, this is like the Fox guarding the hen house.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh the the the the USDA, I call it the US duh, um, has has has made fun of organics from day one.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's always made fun of this.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, uh, you know, I can remember uh 35 years ago, our Virginia Commissioner of Agriculture, Mason, Dr.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: Mason Carbaugh, writing in his spring newsletter, you know, if we if we want organic, we've just got to decide which half of the world we're gonna kill because organics can't feed the world.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: And so we've just got to decide which half to kill.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, I've grown up with this, you know, and and now, and we're gonna we're gonna put these people in charge of the organic standards uh uh of integrity and authenticity, really.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's yeah, it it it's absolutely the the proverbial fox uh guarding the hen house.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: So so if you're if you're watching the press releases and stuff coming out of the the the these new um these new associations and and being written up by by people like Tom Chapman saying that that now we've got plenty of access to the real outdoors and inhumane conditions, um it it it it simply is not true.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's absolutely not true.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: And and Cena, if I'm if I may, um I'll just go on one more point here, uh, and that is I want to encourage people to look at the websites behind the branding.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I was in a fairly large um organic distributor recently, and uh and and they distribute uh numerous organic brands, and so I just I had a few minutes, and so I just pulled up these brands on Google and looked at their websites.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: This is this was all chicken, chicken, uh uh broilers and eggs, because that was what I was interested in.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: It was the poultry part of it.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: And all of them, it's a factory house, it looks just like Tyson's.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: Now, a couple of them had some pictures of chickens in some grass, okay?
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: So they found a pretty day to have some chickens and some grass, but but but they're all listen, you can't have a football-sized house with five chickens in it.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's gonna have tens of thousands of chickens in it.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: I don't care who you are.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: If you're gonna build a football-sized stationary house, it's going to have thousands and thousands of chickens in it.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: And a chicken can can't walk, you know, a chicken can't walk 10 miles a day.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: All the chicken, the farthest a chicken will go, even on our farm with our egg mobiles, where the the chickens can free range as far as they want to, they never go more than 200 yards away from the house.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: A chicken just can't walk that far.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: They they don't walk that far.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so it doesn't matter how much pasture you give chickens, if it if it's if it's 500 yards to the end of it, they don't go to the end of it.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so what happens is anybody that does this has to pretty much exclude, exclude access most of the time, or it becomes a moonscape, just a dirt pile.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: The chickens don't want to go out there, and it's actually more unsanitary than if they were in a house with bedding uh that was actually a little bit cleaner than actually going out on a moonscape.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I encourage people, look, look at the brand, look at look at the egg brand, look at your chicken brand, and just take a few minutes.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: Don't watch Netflix tonight, okay?
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: Take a I I challenge you, take a few minutes, Google up that brand, take a look at their website.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: They're gonna have pictures there.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, do they uh I mean, one I pulled up, um, I pull up the website, there's this 15-minute video, and the first three minutes is the farmer donning uh a hazmat suit to go walk with his chickens.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: Listen, if your farmer has to put on uh personal protective clothing and a hazmat suit and uh and goggles to go visit his chickens, that's not what you want to be eating for breakfast, okay?
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: And and so so let's be smart about this.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: Put some attention on it.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: And and and uh you don't have to be a rocket, you don't have to be an expert, you don't have to have raised chickens, you don't have to be skilled in this to be able to to pull up the website and and just see.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: And if you start looking at a few websites, uh you will very, very quickly start being able to separate, you know, the the the the authenticity from the you know from the clever speak.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: Huh okay, I gotta quit seeing uh I'm out of breath.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: Uh that that was my that was my uh that was my riff.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: That was my riff for the day.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: That's hilarious.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: I could totally see you doing a comedic bit of, you know, it kind of reminds me of the whole where's your sign, right?
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: You're like, if you're farmer, da da da.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're farmer, like I mean, that would be so hilarious.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: You should do that.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, at our next um at our Beyond Labels Health Summit.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: You should do that.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: That would be so entertaining.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: But okay, I'm gonna ask you to speak more.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: So catch your breath for a minute.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so you painted a wonderful, vivid picture of, you know, they they don't have this access to the outside.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean wonderful by it's very vivid and clear to all of us listening that organic isn't really what many people think organic is.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: So you painted this picture of how they're not getting this access to the outside, right?
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: Unless they like walk over the barbed wire moat, and you know.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so can you explain based on the organic livestock and poultry practices standards, what does the world look like for these chickens when they're inside now?
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: Since that's seemingly where they're spending most of the time, what is that like inside?
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: How much space do they actually have and so forth?
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so inside, inside they can have, let's see, um one square foot, one square foot per chicken um on multi-tier aviary systems.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: Think about this on multi-tier.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: So, what multi-tier means is these are stacked, stacked systems.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: They can have one square foot each one.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: So that means in order to go outside, they have to walk hundreds of feet up and sideways, even over the top of other birds to be able to get outside.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, and and for for broiler chickens, uh one square foot for meat chickens, for for broilers, meat chickens.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, um and and for outdoor space, uh the new rule provides for about two square feet for laying hens and one square feet, one square foot for broilers.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: Outside, outside.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean, think about a square foot.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, this this is this is a sheet of paper, eight and a half by eleven.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that's not that that's a little less than a square foot.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, um if we if we took another if we took another sheet of paper and put it put it to another four inches, okay.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you can see this.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: All right, so if I can back up, all right, so that that's a square foot right there.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: That's a square foot.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: And and it's one thing if you only have five chickens in a in a spot like that, but if you have 20,000 chickens or a hundred thousand chickens with that kind of space, it's uh it's not much.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: In um you know, in in Europe, uh their organic standards require 43 square feet, and in uh most pastured poultry situations, um, we're dealing with about 108 square feet.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: Now, let me give one caveat, one one important thing is to understand, and this is again one of my pet peeves with the system, especially with animal welfare systems.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: So, for example, on our farm, we run broilers in portable field shelters, and those birds, uh, even from you know, from from little little birds, you know, three weeks old, you know, they've got they've got uh a foot and a half per bird, but they get a different foot and a half every single day.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: So they get a fresh salad every day.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: And and nowhere in any of these standards do they accept the cumulative the cumulative value of an of a new of a new pasture spot every day.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: They don't recognize the the cumulative effect of those pasture lots.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: But so if we've got birds out there, I get the calculator up here.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um man, you're not supposed to do real math in real time and real, but anyway, um, so if we've got if we've got 1.5 square feet per bird and they're out there for um, let's just say uh 30 uh at least 35 days, that's 52, 52 square feet per bird, which is even way over the European Union standards.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: 52 square feet per bird.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that's and that's on broilers.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's not uh egg layers is is even more than that.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, in our egg mobile, they've got completely, you know, they can they can have unlimited square feet, and in the Millennium Feathernet, they have uh uh a lot more than that as well.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: So um so the one of my pet peeves is none of these standards, even animal welfare standards, do not recognize the fact that I have a different I have a different spot, you know, a a different uh piece of pasture every day.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so um, so I have a real I have a real problem in not appreciating the the additive the additive value of a new spot of pasture.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: You know, look, I don't need I don't need a great big space to live because if I get a brand new fresh space every day, I don't need a lot of space to live in.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and that that's kind of you know that's kind of our position uh with this, because they get it, they get a brand new space.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: And so um so I would much rather.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Rather have a bird getting, you know, a foot and a half a day of fresh pasture every day than have it only getting uh you know uh uh even even getting 40 square feet, but stationary where where they never they never get moved because in the first day or two, those chickens are gonna eat all the grasshoppers and crickets.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: They're gonna eat all the cream in that area, they're not gonna get any more the rest of the time they're out there, and and they're gonna be walking over their own manure and pathogens.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: So not only when we move, not only do they get new bugs and critters and grass and clover and all that, they also get their bedding chains.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: They move away from yesterday's manure, which reduces pathogenicity, it reduces you know uh um toxicity and all that stuff.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: So um that's that's another element of this.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, uh these organic standards, they're they're really not they're not much different than you'd find at any Tyson chicken house.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, talk about like pulling the veil back, right?
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, and just with the with the manure aspect, you're talking about if they have a one square foot inside, just think of the health consequences of being around all of that manure.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: And then if they if they scratch, you know, the the ground and then it aerosolizes.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I mean, just and that's our organic burs.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like I don't I don't think that most people think about that or are aware of that.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm grateful that you're pulling that curtain back so that we can all see it.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um we're we're running out of time.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: I want to go out go on to the National Organic Standard Board meeting, but to leave this one on a positive note, right?
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: Because we like to provide solutions.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: So say someone's listening to this and they realize, oh, wait a minute, I thought I was doing well, well by buying, you know, organic, uh like cage free or free-range chickens at the grocery store.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, Joel, what can they do if they don't want to buy that anymore?
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: Where can they find their where can they find truly pasture raised eggs?
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: So, so truly pasture-raised eggs, again, um, go to a website and and one of the best places is to look at the American Pastured Poultry Producers Association, APPPA, American Pastured Poultry Producers Association.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: And and they have a they have a directory, they have uh a membership, and um and and so that's a place to start.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: But um and then and then once you once you you know dip your toe in that, then I I I I am comp I am amazed all the time at what people put on their websites.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: You know, um I I'm so I'm so keen on this.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I look at these websites of these, you know, organic and and supposedly, you know, like uh um there that and there are pat there are people claiming pasture too.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: Look, you can't you can't have pastured chickens in a stationary house, period.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: You can't have them in a stationary house.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: They're in a stationary house.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: The chick chickens, you think cows are rough on pasture?
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: Chickens are 10 times as rough because they can scratch.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: They peck, they scratch, they tear up the sod.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so, so that's why the portable portable infrastructure is is like a bedrock of true pastured poultry.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: You cannot have stationary infrastructure and have pastured poultry.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so, again, the website will show you is this stationary?
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: Is it portable?
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: And if you start looking at some websites of true pastured poultry, and there are some big producers, we're not by any means the biggest one.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, there are some big ones.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: There's um uh there's a couple, uh, there's a family out in uh Northern California that actually produces pastured eggs.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and they it they're you know they're massive, but it's all portable infrastructure.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: So the birds get you know get brand new, uh brand new area every day.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: And there's none of this, as you said, this fecal aerosol coming up from from the the scratching and the bedding uh from the from the house from the the house.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: That's wonderful.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, great.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: So solution for that, and now let's move on to our second kind of breaking news in the food supply is the the National Organic Standard Board had a meeting in October, uh discussed various components of our food supply, but one that we were gonna highlight is regarding biologics, uh, in other words, vaccines.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: So, Joel, what is the latest on the vaccines in our organic livestock?
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: Well, this has really come to the fore recently.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I I think probably Cena, most people that have been, you know, organic, loyal organic uh uh customers have not realized that from its inception, back whatever, 25 years ago, the national organic standards never took a position on vaccines.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: They never took a position on it.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: What I mean by they never took a position on it was was they they never said yes or no.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: They never voted up or down.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: It vaccines were kind of um a discretionary thing.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, some farmers use them, some farmers don't.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: And um, so you know, the the whole the whole um uh you know organic label has limped along this way for a long time.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: Well, what's brought this really to fore is now the mRNA, this new genetic modification.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um I mean, they're still calling them vaccines.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: I I refuse to call them vaccines because I think it's something else.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: But um, but for the sake of our discussion right now, let's just say this is a new genetically engineered vaccine, uh, the mRNA, which is different than the old, you know, live cell vaccines of yesteryear.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so this has now come up within the within the organic industry.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, we've never taken a position on vaccines.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: We said it's okay to to if you want a vaccine, if you don't want a vaccine, it's fine.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: We're not gonna take a position on that.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: And we're not gonna put it on a label, we're not gonna, you know, differentiate.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: But now suddenly there's this new genetically engineered, and and and organic has taken a good position on um on not allowing genetically modified organisms, GMOs.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: They've taken a pretty strong position over the years on genetic modification.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so now suddenly we have this genetically modified um vaccine option.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and again, I'm putting vaccine in flying quotations here, uh, in the industry.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so the NOSB looks at this and says, well, you know, now what do we do?
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_00: And what they do is they decide again to punt and not take a position on it.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: So the position is we have no position.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um another way, another way to say that, Sina, is our position is we don't care.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: And and so, so this this is is continuing the same kind of the same overall um uh idea that they've had for years and years.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's just Sina, I think the stakes are a little bit higher now because this now is a genetically modified serum or or or whatever uh that's that's going into the animals that we've not had before.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so it does, it does um, you know, up the up the ante a little bit in the in the debate and the discussion.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I found it fascinating.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, again, um this comes from um Mark Castell.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: Is that how you say his name?
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yeah, Mark Castell.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: Organic eye.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so this is what he says um in regards to that discussion from the National Organic Standard Board.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: He says, although it was publicly discussed, so that means in the board member meeting they discussed it, um, it has now and has now become common knowledge that many of the vaccines being used in livestock are genetically engineered.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: The board voted to approve them as a group without any safety reviews, despite the federal requirement that these materials be evaluated for both safety and essentiality.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: So he says when biologics were discussed, there was not one question from anyone on the board.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: No balancing information was presented, not one word.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, even though the National Organic Standard Board had previously voted to only allow um GMO vaccines when traditionally produced biologics are not commercially available, the USDA has not responded.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: And Dr.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: Tucker went on the record of saying that this recommendation was not a priority.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: The relisting of this class of drugs passed unanimously.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so so just so that everybody is with us, uh Cena, the biologicals.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: So you did you catch there the essential?
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: In other words, they're they're creating within within the organic standards, they're creating and have had for a long time, um uh questionable inputs that are considered essential because there's no biological counterpart.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I'm I I I can remember when organic standards first came out, for example, they allowed um, they allowed uh uh organic certified chicken uh feed, for example, if it was only 30% organic uh because it was too hard to get um um or organic feed.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so they allowed a certain amount of adulteration in the loophole, you know, as an exemption because it was too too difficult.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: You couldn't raise chickens this way, otherwise, because you know it was essential to do it.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_00: And so so what's happened here is that that that that uh um uh uh that essential is is the uh mrna, is it actually essential?
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh the what Mark Castell is telling us is that at the board meeting, the uh there was no place for uh, for example, well, you know, we just did a podcast on your herbal, herbal uh uh toolkit, okay?
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh your herbal first aid kit.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: The whole idea there is that there are extremely efficacious alternatives to what Walgreens and CVS has.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: But but you you have to you have to dig a little bit to find them.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: They're not mainstream, they're they're traditional.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, they predate pharmaceuticals by thousands of years, but um but but but you have to dig a little bit to find them.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: And what Mark Castell is telling us, I mean, uh at the meeting, is that when this whole topic came up, there was not even space or a place for somebody to bring to the board.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: Well, uh uh uh uh just a minute.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think there's an herb that can do that.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I think there's a biological, you know, there's a there's a natural option for that.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it it it what it wasn't even discussed, it didn't even see the light of day.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's the kind of uh of reception, that's the kind of reception that those of us who I'll just say are more true blue are getting at the National Organic Standards Board as as it has uh moved farther and farther into the um into the as we have as we have industrialized organics.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so let me just be clear then.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: So what he's saying is from the outcome of this meeting, the board voted to approve the genetically engineered um vaccines as a group, even though they didn't have safety reviews.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: So so he's saying that in livestock that's raised organically, they can now use these genetically engineered vaccines.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: Is that correct?
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: That that that is correct.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: That is correct.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: It goes back to now, now it's more important than ever.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: Know your farmer.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's right.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: Know what they're giving those that livestock.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, this to me, like, why is it this everywhere?
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like, why why this is the only time I've heard about this was you know from the organic eye.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like, why aren't people screaming this off the roof off the rooftops?
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like, this is incredible that this is now being allowed in the organic food supply.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, am I missing something?
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't understand why this isn't a big deal.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think I I think I think what what what what you're missing maybe Cena in the look, you know, I was an old journalist, you know, before um, so I have some background in journalism.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I think what what you're you're missing here is that the boards, the Mark Castell, I think, is is pushing the envelope a little bit, saying they approved this.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_00: They actually didn't approve it, they just didn't deny it.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so by not denying it, they approved it, which which which makes it a little different story.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_00: In other words, it's hard, it's hard to create a sensational story by saying the board, the board decided to not take any action.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, that's a it's hard it's hard to sensationalize a story when the story is they didn't do anything.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: You and I know the story is we've got a whole new uh a new uh whatever uh gener uh you got the better word, a generation of whatever you a new uh thing here, this genetically engineered uh material.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_00: We've got a new thing that we're dealing with.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_00: And um and and so for the board to simply say we're not gonna we're not gonna say anything about it, um you and I know that is that is absolute approval, but they didn't actually vote for approval, they just voted to not take any action.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so it it's it's hard to gen, it's hard to gen up a big story when the story is well, they didn't do anything.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: Well, what they did was they they they by inaction, they absolutely approved the use of genetically mrna v uh uh um material in organic uh or organic labels.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and that's how I'm reading the story, and that's why that's why I'm at a loss almost because I don't understand, like you're saying, by saying nothing, they they did kind of you know approve it by saying nothing.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: So now it can be used, people can use it and they can fall back and say, oh, well, it's the NSOB said it was okay, so I'm gonna go ahead and use it.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean, that's it to and to me, this speaks to your earlier point of just being bought off by industry.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_01: There's just all these industry, you know, connections on the National Organic Standard Board, you know, like the chair, the committee and stuff.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_01: It it has to be that kind of connection, you know, because I can't understand how someone would want this in the in the organic sector, right?
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like put it in the conventional, I mean, sure, but not in the organic.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_01: So it it really just speaks volumes as to how bought off our food is, and even in the organic sector, you know, and I'm glad you're here to help us understand the historical content of it and to piece this together for us, uh, because this is a big deal.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like what they just didn't do was actually a big action, yeah.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: And and and and to realize, to realize that this this um lack of lack of action on something this large shows their mentality of what essential is.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_00: And and Cena, you and I, we this podcast, we have we have uh dug into the whole label thing is about what is essential.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_00: You know, uh uh from from labeling to disease to labeling our own uh what we can't do.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's all about um what we can and can't do, or or what what is absolutely essential.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_00: Well, there's no alternative.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_00: There's no alternative.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think if there's a there are numerous common themes I think that you and I touch on on almost all these, but but one of the common themes is there are alternatives.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_00: Don't put yourself in that label, don't put yourself in that box.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_00: There are alternatives.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so for all of these supposedly, you know, best and brightest minds in organics to sit back in their chair and say, huh, there's no alternative, is really a bummer.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's isn't it?
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's a bummer uh that they they that they have no uh no concept that there could be an alternative.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, and and so we're not about that, right?
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_01: We're about empowering, empowering, educating, empowering, and coming up with solutions.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to end up talking about I'll go ahead.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I can tell you, as someone who raises thousands and thousands of chickens and cows and pigs and all this stuff, these things are not essential.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going on record right now.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_00: They are not essential.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: We don't use them.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_00: You we don't need them, they are not essential.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_00: But if you if you try to raise 50 50,000 chickens in a stationary house, chances are they will be essential.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_00: And therein lies the great, the great uh uh uh problem is that these are only essential if you are not managing correctly, but there are wonderful ways to manage correctly and eliminate their essence their essentiality.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so to end on another positive note, um, organic eye has requested that the USDA hold a public meeting on this subject, and they have actually threatened legal action if this goes unaddressed.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_01: So they are actually pursuing this, and we can actually pursue as well.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_01: Find the local farmer that you trust or you know, order from a farmer online that you trust.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_01: And also, um, one thing I started doing when this whole MRA story came out about livestock, you know, months ago, we reported on that.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_01: I started just calling brands and saying, are you using this in the brand?
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm not gonna buy from you anymore unless you stop using this or unless you confirm that you are not using this.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so if we get a lot of people to do that, the market will speak, right?
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_01: If you stop buying from these companies because of this issue, they will stop because it's the bottom line that matters to the company.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_01: But we have to mobilize and be active and start calling, you know, just start with one thing that's in your fridge, one piece of meat or you know, whatever, one one brand, call that brand and just ask are you using any mRNA or genetically you know engineered um or manipulated, you know, um vaccines?
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh do any of your suppliers use it?
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_00: I can tell you right now, Cena, uh, and I know we're out of time, but right now in the whole uh grass-finished beef movement, there's a big kerfluffle going on right now within the the grass-finished beef movement as to whether you have to vaccinate your cows or not.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_00: And and many of the uh what gurus of uh grass-finished beef are saying you have to vaccinate your cows.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_00: And and and so so this is now this is not organic.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_00: Don't don't read more, okay.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_00: I'm talking about I'm talking about the you know the the grass-finished beef uh uh movement.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um there is quite a an ongoing kerfluffle now about this, and and a lot of it has has been generated by this mRNA.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_00: And um and and that that's what that's done is is it has um it has heightened the awareness and the concern on the consumer end, and I'm glad for it.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm glad for it that it has actually heightened that, and more people are asking questions and and they're starting to push back, and I'm glad to see it.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and so um so that that's that's positive.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, and a big thank you again to Mark from Organic Eye for reporting on this, staying on top of it, um, and sending this out to all of us so we can stay informed as well.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_01: We thank you for for that.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_01: And thank you to Joel for translating all of this for us and giving us historical content.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_01: You make this easy to digest for us.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and we're here with all of you, right?
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_01: We're in this together and we're we're now educated.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_01: And let's go be empowered and start making those phone calls and start finding our local farmers that don't um subscribe to these practices.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for joining us, and we look forward to seeing all of you again next week.