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CLASSIC: Philadelphia's Transylvanian Doomsday Cult: The Cave of Kelpius · Ridiculous History

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Speaker 1: Fellow Ridiculous Historians, we returned you with a classic episode.
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Speaker 1: It turns out that back in twenty eighteen, Noel and
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Speaker 1: I and oh our guy Gabe, remember Gabe Lucy.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, Gabeluzier of course.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, we got super into a doomsday cult over there
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Speaker 1: in Pennsylvania.
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Speaker 2: It's true. It's a super cool bit of hidden history
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Speaker 2: tucked away in Philly and with a hicken Valley park. Gosh,
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Speaker 2: I hope to stand there with some of.
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Speaker 1: The stir Heart grounds.
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Speaker 2: Yeah. It's a cave where a legend has it, a
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Speaker 2: doomsday cult once made their home, their HQ, whatever you
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Speaker 2: want to call, where a cult hangs out and does
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Speaker 2: their cult thing.
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Speaker 1: Let's roll it. Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio.
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Speaker 1: Well well, well, no, old friend, here we are on
1:18
Speaker 1: Ridiculous History, about to about to dive into a topic
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Speaker 1: that I find endlessly fascinating.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, We're going to dive into a seahole. What is
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Speaker 2: a seahole? A cult, a cult hole?
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Speaker 1: Yes? Or a cave hole?
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Speaker 2: All right?
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Speaker 1: Yeah?
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Speaker 2: When I say a seahole, it's more of a c
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Speaker 2: rectangle really, yeah, because it's a it's a cave, a
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Speaker 2: man made cave with a rectangular door that was one
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Speaker 2: of the first ever homes to America's like original doomsday cult.
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Speaker 1: My name is Ben. This Ridiculous History is I think
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Speaker 1: I just mentioned, And of course we are joined as
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Speaker 1: always with our super producer Casey Pegram. Know the rumors
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Speaker 1: are true. We're talking about a legitimate doomsday cult. And
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Speaker 1: you know in another show that you and I do together,
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Speaker 1: we run into cults on a on a like bi
2:14
Speaker 1: monthly basis.
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Speaker 2: Semi regular. Yeah, But in Ridiculous History, man, we don't
2:17
Speaker 2: deal in rumors. What's the brass tax, my man? Yes,
2:21
Speaker 2: the brass tax. Take us to a place very familiar
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Speaker 2: with everyone here known as Philadelphia. See the Cave of
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Speaker 2: Kelpius is tucked away in a remote section of the
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Speaker 2: modern day Fairmont Park in Philadelphia, but it's very old.
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Speaker 1: You could walk past it and not really notice the
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Speaker 1: history now unless you went inside, right.
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Speaker 2: That's right. In fact, a lot of places that describe
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Speaker 2: it say, even if you know where you're going, you're
2:54
Speaker 2: probably a lot less likely to find it rather than
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Speaker 2: just stumble upon it because it is in like a
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Speaker 2: heavily wooded kind of blair Witch kind of environment. Right,
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Speaker 2: It's along the banks of the Wissahickon Creek, and in
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Speaker 2: sixteen ninety four, a very smart fellow, a scholar, something
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Speaker 2: of a New Age mystic type, right by the name
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Speaker 2: of Johannes Kelpius. He brought forty of his followers, all
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Speaker 2: learned men, from their home in Transylvania, to the newly
3:29
Speaker 2: settled Germantown, Pennsylvania, because they were escaping religious persecution, because
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Speaker 2: they were they weren't playing by the book, no good book.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, they had their own playbook spiritually, and they
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Speaker 1: believed that the end was nigh. Johannes Kelpius was born
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Speaker 1: Johann kelp in Transylvania. As you said in sixteen sixty seven.
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Speaker 2: Is that nominative determinism? Do you think his family, like,
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Speaker 2: we're maritime folk.
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Speaker 1: I wonder that's a good question, you know. Also, what
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Speaker 1: I noticed is given the timeline, this is way before
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Speaker 1: Bram Stoker made Transylvania a scary place.
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Speaker 2: That's true.
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Speaker 1: Is that weird?
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Speaker 2: It's going to come up in the next episode We're
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Speaker 2: going to do I think as well? Oh it is,
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Speaker 2: it is stay tuned spoiler alert. But yeah, so he
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Speaker 2: brought these forty they had I think he himself had
4:23
Speaker 2: what you were starting his chronology. He was born oh yeah, yeah,
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Speaker 2: and then he was educated m hm yeah. He completed
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Speaker 2: his education at Bavaria's University of Altdorf, and at the
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Speaker 2: time it was a very respected high falutint institution there
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Speaker 2: in Europe. And his name change occurred not because of
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Speaker 2: vanity so much as because the common practice for scholars
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Speaker 2: at this day and age was to latinize your name.
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Speaker 2: Sol became Kelpius. Would mind become Brownius, that's.
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Speaker 1: Interesting, Bolinnius, Brownius, Pegrimius, Pigrammius, Pagrimius, Begroomius. So while he's
5:07
Speaker 1: at university, he becomes attracted to, acquainted with, enamored of
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Speaker 1: a religious movement known as Pietism. This was a reaction
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Speaker 1: against the Orthodox Lutheranism of the time, and then it
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Speaker 1: later expanded to include beliefs that, you know, as you said,
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Speaker 1: with his followers, beliefs that were considered heretical, strange, forbidden knowledge,
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Speaker 1: possibly a cult. And as he became more and more
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Speaker 1: immersed in this world, he also began to gather different
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Speaker 1: people around him. He was a follower of a guy
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Speaker 1: named Johann Jacob Zimmerman and Zimmerman formed a small group
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Speaker 1: of like minded people called the Chapter of Perfection.
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Speaker 2: It's true, and actually I saw him described as such
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Speaker 2: as a noted German mathematician, astronomer, and defrockt Lutheran minister.
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Speaker 2: And you know what happens when they defrock you, right, right,
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Speaker 2: That's like when you pull all the metals off the
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Speaker 2: general's chest, you know, yeah, and send him with his
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Speaker 2: tail between his legs.
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Speaker 1: You are no longer allowed to practice the spiritual beliefs.
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Speaker 2: Right, give me your badge and gun, detective.
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Speaker 1: Exactly, that's the good way to put it.
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Speaker 2: Yeah.
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Speaker 1: And this group led by Zimmerman that Kelpius is a
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Speaker 1: member of right right around this time, he's maybe twenty
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Speaker 1: years old and most of the people in the group
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Speaker 1: are around his age. And the group believed that there
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Speaker 1: was a new spiritual age imminent, their version of the
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Speaker 1: one thousand year idea of Christ returning, and that they
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Speaker 1: had to prepare for this. And I love that you
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Speaker 1: mentioned Zimmerman being an astronomer, because that was the quantitative
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Speaker 1: basis for a lot of his arguments.
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Speaker 2: That's right, And I just want to say too, Zimmerman
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Speaker 2: was kind of the one who initially unless I'm reading
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Speaker 2: this thing correctly. Initially put together this expedition, you know,
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Speaker 2: it was like a six month boat trip. Yeah yeah,
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Speaker 2: from from there from Europe to Germantown or Philadelphia area.
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Speaker 2: But he passed away before it could take off, Right,
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Speaker 2: So Kelpius kind of became the new de facto leader
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Speaker 2: of the group.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, the neo Zimmermann.
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Speaker 2: Right.
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Speaker 1: This is an interesting part of the story that I
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Speaker 1: could not I don't know if you found anything, but
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Speaker 1: I couldn't solve one mystery about this. Estimates say that
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Speaker 1: around sixteen ninety two, this group, the Chapter of Perfection,
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Speaker 1: received an offer of free land in Pennsylvania in Germantown
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Speaker 1: what you mentioned, and a free boat ride over. But
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Speaker 1: they received it anonymously. Now I had read somewhere that
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Speaker 1: was from the governor of Pennsylvania. Oh okay, I was
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Speaker 1: trying to, you know, encourage new settlers to come in,
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Speaker 1: and offers of religious tolerance was a big part of
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Speaker 1: early Pennsylvania settlements, right, Okay, that makes a lot of sense.
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Speaker 2: Maybe it wasn't the government though, but I know that
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Speaker 2: definitely was an effort from the powers that be in
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Speaker 2: this particular part of the colonies to attract more religiously
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Speaker 2: free thinking types.
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Speaker 1: And to populate the land with Europeans of course too. Yeah,
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Speaker 1: I think you must be spot on. You know. I
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Speaker 1: love the tantalizing hint of an anonymous person, but I
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Speaker 1: bet you are one hundred percent correct that it was
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Speaker 1: the governing structure of the time. But as you said, Zimmerman,
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Speaker 1: right around the time they're about to leave for what
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Speaker 1: would become the United States, Zimmerman dies in August of
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Speaker 1: sixteen ninety three, Kelpius becomes the commander. He leads them.
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Speaker 1: He leads his group of forty people to a ridge
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Speaker 1: there above the Wissahicken Gorge. That's such a fun word
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Speaker 1: to say, too. And there along the fortieth parallel, Kelpius
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Speaker 1: builds a forty foot square tabernacle because in their philosophy
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Speaker 1: and their understanding, forty is like the best number, It's
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Speaker 1: the most important magical number.
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Speaker 2: I did just find. It was William Penn who apparently
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Speaker 2: invited the group, And William Penn was the governor, and
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Speaker 2: I think kind of governed Pennsylvania like its own tear,
9:19
Speaker 2: like its own entire amous autonomous thing. Yeah, that's right,
9:24
Speaker 2: so Bend, you know, millennialism.
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Speaker 1: Is millennialism, from what I understand, is the belief that
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Speaker 1: the world will expire at a significant date, either either
9:35
Speaker 1: completely end or some great change will occur. Is that correct?
9:39
Speaker 2: That it's big time correct, and that is what these
9:41
Speaker 2: folks were all about. You may have seen the Fox
9:46
Speaker 2: television show kind of a bit of an X Files
9:49
Speaker 2: ripoff called Millennium, but it was all about like the
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Speaker 2: end times and the end of days and stuff. But
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Speaker 2: there's a couple of different interpretations of millennialism, and I'm
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Speaker 2: taking this from the New World Encyclopedia. One of them
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Speaker 2: is this notion that Christ will come back to Earth
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Speaker 2: and establish himself an entire new kingdom and rule for
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Speaker 2: one thousand years, at which point will come the Reckoning,
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Speaker 2: you know, or some kind of calling of those that
10:13
Speaker 2: deserve to stick around and those that have to go.
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Speaker 2: Then there's another version of it where the second Coming
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Speaker 2: occurs with an immediate culling of the wicked through some
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Speaker 2: sort of cataclysmic event to trigger a new world order
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Speaker 2: kind of thing. But whichever one they believed in, the
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Speaker 2: fact is there was a very specific part of the
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Speaker 2: Bible that was a foundation of this belief system in general,
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Speaker 2: and it's obviously the Book of Revelations, and there's a
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Speaker 2: particular passage that gave this group one of their many monikers.
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Speaker 2: They had a handful. And the passage is called the
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Speaker 2: Woman in the Dragon, and it's from Revelations twelve through sixteen.
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Speaker 2: It's gonna read you a little bit of it. A
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Speaker 2: great sign appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the son,
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Speaker 2: with the moon under her feet and a crown of
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Speaker 2: twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant and cried
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Speaker 2: out in pain as she was about to give birth.
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Speaker 2: Then another sign appeared in heaven, an enormous red dragon
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Speaker 2: with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on
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Speaker 2: its head. Skip a little bit. Then war broke out
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Speaker 2: in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon,
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Speaker 2: and the dragon and his angels fought back, but he
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Speaker 2: was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven.
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Speaker 2: The great dragon was hurled down that ancient serpent called
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Speaker 2: the devil or Satan, who leads the whole world astray.
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Speaker 2: He was hurled to the earth and his angels with him.
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Speaker 2: So it's this idea of hell on earth kind of
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Speaker 2: And what was what were some of the names of
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Speaker 2: their group, starting with the one that was taken from
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Speaker 2: this passage that they so held so dear.
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Speaker 1: They were collectively known by several names. The weirdest one
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Speaker 1: was the Woman of the Wilderness. Forty guys calling themselves
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Speaker 1: the Woman of the Wilderness. It wasn't even like the
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Speaker 1: women collective of.
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Speaker 2: The Woman of the Wilderness, Society of the just the woman.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the weird That's the weird thing about it
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Speaker 1: is history doesn't seem to completely agree. Some people will
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Speaker 1: tell you they were just collectively called the Woman in
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Speaker 1: the Wilderness, and then you'll find a couple of other
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Speaker 1: places where they say they were the Society of the
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Speaker 1: Woman of the Wilderness, which makes more sense.
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Speaker 2: But my favorite, though, is that they were the Hermits
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Speaker 2: of the Ridge. M Yeah, that's like the name of
12:23
Speaker 2: a D and D party, you know.
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Speaker 1: Or the name of the name of like a good
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Speaker 1: old folksy prairie home companion story.
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Speaker 2: That's true, the old hermit of the ridge. Because the
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Speaker 2: place we're talking about today, the Cave of Kelpius. Folks
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Speaker 2: in Philadelphia area just call it the Hermit's Cave.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, yep. And the legend has it that Kelpius lived
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Speaker 1: and meditated in this cave built in the hillside of
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Speaker 1: the ravine, and that it was you'll hear some people
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Speaker 1: say that it was just an old spring house where
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Speaker 1: accasionally Kelpius, where some other person would spend the night.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, and then he would return to his summer house,
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Speaker 2: you know, in warmer No, I'm kidding, the spring house
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Speaker 2: like a well house or something like some sort of
13:11
Speaker 2: enclosure where there would be a well and a source
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Speaker 2: of fresh water, right.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So while they established themselves in what
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Speaker 1: became known as Hermit's Glenn or the Hermit's Cave in
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Speaker 1: the Hermit's Glenn, they also made an impression on the town.
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Speaker 1: There's a nearby road you can find today, we believe,
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Speaker 1: called Hermit Lane. So this is established. It's not very
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Speaker 1: well known, i'd say, outside of Philadelphia, but it has
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Speaker 1: left a physical trace on the city.
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Speaker 2: That's right. And there's actually a fantastic article from Attles
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Speaker 2: Obscura called the Cave of Kelpius where America's first doomsday
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Speaker 2: called awaited the End of the World, And there's a
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Speaker 2: little sidebar on it that has the coordinates of the cave.
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Speaker 2: Because it's not exactly something you can Google map to,
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Speaker 2: because again, like we said, you kind of just have
14:00
Speaker 2: to wander around and find it yourself. But it is
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Speaker 2: technically on Hermit Lane.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's You'll have a hard time getting male
14:08
Speaker 1: sent there exactly, but you can find it with the
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Speaker 1: coordinates and the space from what we understand, the meeting
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Speaker 1: space of the hermits, or the society or the just
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Speaker 1: the woman in the of the wilderness included the following things.
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Speaker 1: Had a rudimentary observatory where the monks would practice astronomy,
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Speaker 1: and this is thought to be the first observatory built
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Speaker 1: in the New World, the quote unquote New World.
14:34
Speaker 2: Yeah, and astronomy was a huge deal for these folks,
14:38
Speaker 2: and there's there's a sense that it was because they
14:41
Speaker 2: were on the lookout for I'm gonna call them extra terrestrials,
14:45
Speaker 2: but I almost want to say like heavenly like angels
14:49
Speaker 2: or something, signs and wonders, because they really did believe that,
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Speaker 2: you know, like that passages that maybe the devils were
14:56
Speaker 2: going to come flying down from the sky. What's that
14:59
Speaker 2: what's that line? I think it's Batman v. Superman where
15:02
Speaker 2: he says, turns out the devils don't come from below,
15:05
Speaker 2: they come from above. Yeah, you know, he seemed to
15:08
Speaker 2: have that in mind when he was looking, and it
15:10
Speaker 2: was a very for the time advanced telescope.
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Speaker 1: Right, absolutely, Yeah, they were able to have a very
15:18
Speaker 1: clear view. Because we have to remember it's very easy
15:22
Speaker 1: for us nowadays as a species to see a mystical
15:27
Speaker 1: belief that one group or person has and take that
15:31
Speaker 1: to mean that we should dismiss their scientific beliefs. It's
15:35
Speaker 1: not the case. These things exist hand in hand, and
15:38
Speaker 1: to these people, they were not contradictory, sort of the
15:41
Speaker 1: same way that Isaac Newton had some really out there
15:43
Speaker 1: esoteric beliefs.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, are that Rdyard Kipling was kind of a racist?
15:47
Speaker 1: I was absolutely right. Oh god, what a terrible person.
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Speaker 2: The interesting thing too about Kelpia is that we don't know,
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Speaker 2: We don't have a lot of primary sources on him,
16:05
Speaker 2: so there's a lot of conjecture. And when you go
16:07
Speaker 2: to the cave of Kelpius's there's no artifacts left behind,
16:11
Speaker 2: there's no furniture, it's just out there. There is a marker. Right,
16:15
Speaker 2: I was put there by a little society. We know
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Speaker 2: a bit about their philosophy, don't we been the Rosicrution,
16:22
Speaker 2: the Order of the Roscretions. That's the rose Cross.
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Speaker 1: That's right, and all the Order of the Rosy Cross
16:27
Speaker 1: built a marker for this. And you know, if you
16:30
Speaker 1: went back in the forties, you would see some stuff
16:32
Speaker 1: in the cave, like you'd see a chimney that was
16:35
Speaker 1: there for a while.
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Speaker 2: I think it got vandalized or damaged beyond repair and
16:39
Speaker 2: so they removed it. But I saw this cool video
16:42
Speaker 2: that it was cool for a minute and then it
16:44
Speaker 2: started to lean a little heavily into some not true stuff,
16:49
Speaker 2: but it did have a really cool walkthrough of the cave.
16:51
Speaker 2: And I don't know if this was added later. I mean,
16:54
Speaker 2: it's certainly possible. But there's a there's a cross and
16:58
Speaker 2: then an upside down cross right next to it, and
17:00
Speaker 2: the idea being that, like you know, one is the
17:02
Speaker 2: sign of Christ, the other is the sign of the devil.
17:04
Speaker 2: And then throughout the space there are some other kind
17:08
Speaker 2: of strange coded messages. But one thing we do know
17:13
Speaker 2: is real and not just you know, passers by having
17:16
Speaker 2: a laugh, is this rosicruci marker that identifies Kelpius as
17:20
Speaker 2: being the first Rosicrucian in the New World.
17:24
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's legit and the chronology works out. The
17:29
Speaker 1: thing about these semi secret orders, these mysterious esoteric groups,
17:35
Speaker 1: is that they can often just appoint themselves in, you know,
17:41
Speaker 1: a point authority to themselves. But according to the tradition,
17:45
Speaker 1: he's not only the first rouse Krucian, he's the first
17:48
Speaker 1: Ruse Crucian master. Right, there's some neat articles about this,
17:54
Speaker 1: Like you can find a lot of local Pennsylvania history places.
17:59
Speaker 1: I really the explore pahistory dot com story about the marker,
18:04
Speaker 1: and you can read both the modern marker that is
18:08
Speaker 1: in place that tells you about the Kelpiest community.
18:11
Speaker 2: That's the new one.
18:12
Speaker 1: That's right, that's the newer one, and then you can
18:13
Speaker 1: see the other older stuff that's also spread around there.
18:17
Speaker 1: It's a shame about the vandalism, you know what I
18:20
Speaker 1: mean that really that really broke my heart. But we
18:23
Speaker 1: for we forgot to mention. Okay, so they're millennials, millenearians difference.
18:29
Speaker 1: There we go, and they had a very specific time
18:35
Speaker 1: frame for this last judgment, and it was sixteen ninety four,
18:39
Speaker 1: the year that they all got together in this area, right,
18:43
Speaker 1: or when they really doubled down but that time came
18:47
Speaker 1: and went. See that's the problem with a lot of
18:50
Speaker 1: doomsday cults. They'll predict something and then that moment will
18:55
Speaker 1: pass and the world will spin on it as it will,
18:59
Speaker 1: and then they have to find a new way to
19:01
Speaker 1: understand this. So, according to the Chestnut Hill Local with
19:07
Speaker 1: the title the Rapture that Never Came, the story of
19:10
Speaker 1: the Hermits of the Wissa Hicken. According to them, when
19:13
Speaker 1: sixteen ninety four came and went without a last judgment,
19:16
Speaker 1: Kelpius and the society said, you know what, we're going
19:20
Speaker 1: to look toward the year seventeen hundred. Certainly the advent
19:25
Speaker 1: of this new century will bring about the end of
19:28
Speaker 1: mankind and the return of Jesus Christ. I mean, you
19:31
Speaker 1: gotta hope, you know, hope for something better. Right, And
19:35
Speaker 1: the year arrived there was not, from their perspective, a
19:39
Speaker 1: return of a Messiah. And then they started to, I
19:45
Speaker 1: don't know, the members began to get tired of these continual.
19:51
Speaker 2: Claims, Well, did you hear of the Church of the
19:53
Speaker 2: sub Genius Ben Yes, yes, sort of a joke cult,
19:56
Speaker 2: kind of I mean, yes, I'm gonna leave it. That
20:00
Speaker 2: of a joke call where they worship supposedly this like
20:03
Speaker 2: fifties clip art like Dad looking ahead with the pipe
20:06
Speaker 2: called Reverend Jr. Bob Dobbs, and the fundamental concept of
20:13
Speaker 2: SubGenius is slack. But a big part of them is
20:16
Speaker 2: they had this thing called X Day, or supposedly these
20:19
Speaker 2: aliens are gonna come and do very much a thing
20:21
Speaker 2: that I think the Order of the Hermits or whatever
20:24
Speaker 2: you want to call them, we're hoping for. But they
20:26
Speaker 2: got the day wrong because they looked at it upside down,
20:29
Speaker 2: the big.
20:29
Speaker 1: Dummies, you know.
20:30
Speaker 2: And that's just sort of like a little bit thumbing
20:32
Speaker 2: of the nose that a lot of these death cults
20:34
Speaker 2: where they always get something a little off and then
20:37
Speaker 2: you know, oh it'll be next time. Just keep stick
20:40
Speaker 2: with us, you know.
20:41
Speaker 1: And again, in the defense of this group of Kelpius's community,
20:47
Speaker 1: they were not super aggressive, crazy violent agro people.
20:52
Speaker 2: Like you said. The community even kind of enjoyed their presence. Yeah,
20:55
Speaker 2: very gentle types, it would seem.
20:58
Speaker 1: Yeah, it would seem so. And then as they began
21:00
Speaker 1: to as enthusiasm at least began to taper off, they
21:05
Speaker 1: saw the end of the cult becoming more and more immediate.
21:10
Speaker 1: Because Kelpius it turns out that living in caves with
21:16
Speaker 1: crushing low temperatures, especially in the winter months, turns out
21:20
Speaker 1: it's not good for you, no matter how well informed
21:23
Speaker 1: you are, and no matter how talented of an astronomer
21:26
Speaker 1: you are.
21:27
Speaker 3: No.
21:27
Speaker 2: We also find that a lot of times people that
21:28
Speaker 2: are like really driven and obsessed with the quest for
21:31
Speaker 2: knowledge sometimes don't take the best care of their physical
21:36
Speaker 2: vessels because they're so busy doing all the maths and stuff,
21:39
Speaker 2: you know, that they just got time to eat or
21:41
Speaker 2: you know, put on a blanket.
21:43
Speaker 1: And Kelpius became ill with tuberculosis. It's around seventeen oh five.
21:48
Speaker 1: He had to go away from the Tabernacle area and
21:51
Speaker 1: move into the home of a former member who had
21:55
Speaker 1: already left the organization in Germantown Proper, and he he lived.
22:01
Speaker 1: He lived for about three more years.
22:03
Speaker 2: I believe he was early forties when he passed away.
22:06
Speaker 2: Seemed quite quite unfortunate and young.
22:09
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, he never really recovered from that bout of tuberculosis,
22:15
Speaker 1: and he died in seventeen oh eight. His followers returned,
22:19
Speaker 1: they took his body to the tabernacle. They buried him
22:22
Speaker 1: in the garden, and they had a ceremony where they
22:25
Speaker 1: released a dove as they were lowering him into the ground.
22:28
Speaker 1: The society itself survived for about another ten years or so,
22:33
Speaker 1: but without the same drive or enthusiasm.
22:37
Speaker 2: It was.
22:37
Speaker 1: At some point it got down to just six hardcore believers.
22:41
Speaker 1: But here we end some of the facts and we
22:44
Speaker 1: get to some of the real juicy stuff, the legends.
22:47
Speaker 2: Oh man, this is fun stuff. This is much more
22:49
Speaker 2: in the realm of our other program. Stuff they don't
22:52
Speaker 2: want you to know, but it is just so much fun, great,
22:56
Speaker 2: so great. So. One of Kelpius's most did confidants and
23:01
Speaker 2: followers was a guy by the name of Geisler. Was
23:05
Speaker 2: his first name, Daniel, Daniel Geisler, and he was kind
23:10
Speaker 2: of trying to adhere to the mystical Guru's last wishes
23:15
Speaker 2: as he was on his deathbed, right.
23:18
Speaker 1: Because Kelpius gave Geisler a very particular artifact. It was
23:26
Speaker 1: a box, but it was locked.
23:29
Speaker 2: Yeah. I like to refer to it as the mystery Box.
23:32
Speaker 2: I think of that thing in Mulholland Drive, you know,
23:35
Speaker 2: where they pull out the box and the camera zooms
23:37
Speaker 2: in and then everything gets real weird. It's like that,
23:40
Speaker 2: you know, no one knows what's in the box. But
23:43
Speaker 2: there's a fantastic article from the Voice, The Philly Voice
23:47
Speaker 2: in fact, called did Wissa, Hick and Hermit have fabled
23:50
Speaker 2: Philosopher's Stone? Huh? Yeah, Ben, remind us what's the philosopher's stone?
23:56
Speaker 3: Ah?
23:57
Speaker 1: Yes? Well?
23:58
Speaker 2: In the.
24:00
Speaker 1: Common way to put it, without making it a crazy
24:03
Speaker 1: metaphor for something, is that it's a legendary substance that
24:08
Speaker 1: you hear a lot about in alchemical writings that can
24:11
Speaker 1: turn things into other things. It can transmute substances, so
24:15
Speaker 1: you'll hear stuff like turning lead into gold, for instance. Right,
24:19
Speaker 1: that sounds cool. Yeah, it sounds like a great stone
24:21
Speaker 1: to have. Right. It may not be a physical stone
24:25
Speaker 1: in all the stories. Sometimes it's just the substance, and
24:28
Speaker 1: sometimes it's thought to be more of a symbol of
24:34
Speaker 1: a mystical term for the great work in every effort
24:40
Speaker 1: by alchemist to discover this substance or create it or
24:44
Speaker 1: reproduce it, where those efforts were collectively known as the
24:48
Speaker 1: great Work.
24:49
Speaker 2: The Great Work.
24:49
Speaker 1: So the idea that a mystic like Kelpius would possess
24:57
Speaker 1: this philosopher's stone is a amazing and astonishing to anybody
25:02
Speaker 1: who is still searching for it. No, we have to
25:03
Speaker 1: keep in mind. You know, this is the early early
25:07
Speaker 1: eighteenth century, so belief in alchemy is still, you know,
25:12
Speaker 1: much more widespread than it is in twenty eighteen. I
25:15
Speaker 1: would say.
25:16
Speaker 2: So Kelpius is on his deathbed in the throes of
25:19
Speaker 2: the dreaded tuberculosis. This was the early seventeen hundred and
25:23
Speaker 2: seventy seventeen o eight and his confidant there Geisler. Geisler is,
25:28
Speaker 2: I'm just painting a picture here, kneeling by his bedside,
25:31
Speaker 2: and say, master, Master, what can I do for you
25:34
Speaker 2: to ease your suffering? Anything? This is totally how it
25:38
Speaker 2: went down. And to that Kelpius says, well, there is
25:40
Speaker 2: one thing, my son, Come closer. You know how they
25:43
Speaker 2: always do that when they're on the deathbed. Then come closer.
25:45
Speaker 1: I don't have discuss dray, Come closer.
25:48
Speaker 2: I want you to take hence this box my arcaneum,
25:53
Speaker 2: and I want you to throw it in the river,
25:56
Speaker 2: the shool Kill River. How would you say that kill? Yeah,
26:01
Speaker 2: I want you to throw it in the watery depths
26:04
Speaker 2: of the shoy Kill. And you know, to this our
26:08
Speaker 2: boy Geesler, he said, sure, yeah, well of course, and
26:12
Speaker 2: then and then promptly didn't didn't didn't do it.
26:15
Speaker 1: And the the great part of a legends when when
26:20
Speaker 1: he comes back and he's like, all done, boss uh Kelpius.
26:24
Speaker 2: He says, come closer.
26:25
Speaker 1: Yeah. He raises himself up and he expends what little
26:30
Speaker 1: energy has to point at him and say, Daniel, thou
26:34
Speaker 1: hast not done as I bid thee Nor hast thou
26:37
Speaker 1: cast the casket et into the river, but hast he
26:40
Speaker 1: didn't near the shore.
26:42
Speaker 2: And then he was like, you got me, boss, I
26:46
Speaker 2: was going to try to pick that lock.
26:48
Speaker 1: And and so now he's convinced.
26:51
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, he's definitely he's definitely convinced. And so he
26:53
Speaker 2: he he, you know, he finally does it. And what
26:55
Speaker 2: a disappointment though this guy was, yeah, well, what kind
26:59
Speaker 2: of fo are you if you can't just follow simple
27:01
Speaker 2: instructions of a dying mystic?
27:03
Speaker 1: Is a dying wish?
27:05
Speaker 2: Seriously?
27:05
Speaker 1: So what happens though, when he actually does throw it away?
27:10
Speaker 2: Well, according to this account, which was given by Geesler
27:15
Speaker 2: to a guy by the name of Henry Mullenberg, who
27:21
Speaker 2: in the Muhlenberg College in Allentown, Pennsylvania, was named after
27:27
Speaker 2: and also he I think he's he started the North
27:30
Speaker 2: American Lutheran Church or he was a big force in
27:33
Speaker 2: establishing the North American Lutheran Church. This is again from
27:35
Speaker 2: this Philly Voice article. It's a very fabulous account because
27:42
Speaker 2: he says, and this is this is all you know
27:44
Speaker 2: written down, that as soon as he threw it in
27:47
Speaker 2: the river exploded.
27:50
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, like is it? So, help help me get
27:54
Speaker 1: this straight. Did it explode? Was it a flash of lightning?
27:58
Speaker 1: Did it come from the box? That's what it almost
28:00
Speaker 1: sounds like.
28:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a little weird. It's it's it's written as
28:06
Speaker 2: though it produced some kind of alchemical reaction, some sort
28:13
Speaker 2: of elemental that's the way I'm looking for reaction. Because
28:16
Speaker 2: it's described as producing quote producing flashes of lightning and
28:20
Speaker 2: peals of thunder.
28:22
Speaker 1: It made me think when we first were reading about
28:24
Speaker 1: this of Indiana Jones and the readers of the Lost Arc,
28:27
Speaker 1: remember where they find somebody ignores the advice and they
28:31
Speaker 1: open the arc and people melt and there's all this
28:35
Speaker 1: strange yea at the time, amazing special effects.
28:38
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's also been forever memorialized in an amazing gift
28:42
Speaker 2: that you can drop whenever someone says something crazy. I yeh,
28:47
Speaker 2: feel a third down on one of the Nazi's face
28:49
Speaker 2: melting off and eyes bugging out.
28:50
Speaker 1: There we go this account. We should also mention I'm
28:53
Speaker 1: glad you brought up Henry Mouhnberg because Geisler didn't tell
28:57
Speaker 1: the pastor about this immediately after, right, it was a
29:00
Speaker 1: number of years.
29:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, for sure. But this, this Philly Voice article
29:05
Speaker 2: does a really good job of pointing out how this
29:08
Speaker 2: sounds a whole lot more like a kind of literary
29:12
Speaker 2: device rather than an actual account. You know. They compare
29:17
Speaker 2: it to King Arthur asking his follower to throw Excalibur
29:23
Speaker 2: into the lake and then the lady of the lake
29:26
Speaker 2: reaches aloft and grabs excalibur, you know what I mean,
29:29
Speaker 2: Like they would have known about those stories. Well, yeah,
29:34
Speaker 2: but it's like, it's it's very odd that he would
29:36
Speaker 2: tell this very specific and quite incredible account that to
29:41
Speaker 2: what end, to help spread the mythos of of this
29:45
Speaker 2: this mystic.
29:46
Speaker 1: You know, Yeah, that's that's the interesting question, because obviously
29:51
Speaker 1: they would have they were quite educated for the time,
29:54
Speaker 1: they were aware of folklore. They would understand the connections.
29:58
Speaker 1: Oh and it can't believe we forgot the fun fact there.
30:02
Speaker 1: These guys are famous for another reason because Christopher Witt
30:08
Speaker 1: in seventeen oh five painted Kelpia, since believed to be
30:11
Speaker 1: the oldest oil painting in the US.
30:14
Speaker 2: Oh, I didn't catch that.
30:15
Speaker 1: It has nothing to do with magic or allegations there.
30:18
Speaker 2: Now, art is its own kind of magic and its
30:21
Speaker 2: own reward.
30:22
Speaker 1: That's awesome. That's a good way to look at it.
30:29
Speaker 1: So this account may be fictitious, it may be solely
30:32
Speaker 1: a legend.
30:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this speculation is coming from a historian from
30:37
Speaker 2: the Historical Society of Pennsylvania by the name of Dan Roth,
30:40
Speaker 2: who was interviewed for this piece on Philly Voice dot
30:44
Speaker 2: com that was written by John Kopp, who was a
30:47
Speaker 2: staff writer for Philly Voice. So where does that leave
30:49
Speaker 2: us today?
30:50
Speaker 1: Oh?
30:51
Speaker 2: I do have one other thing. I did see this
30:53
Speaker 2: video that I was talking about earlier, that it's kind
30:56
Speaker 2: of cool for a point and then it really starts
30:58
Speaker 2: to get into like and he was totally looking for aliens,
31:02
Speaker 2: and Ben Franklin liked it was believed in aliens too,
31:05
Speaker 2: and Ben Franklin supposedly got possession of all of the
31:10
Speaker 2: relics and remaining materials that were ever in this cave.
31:14
Speaker 2: But I found no mention of that anywhere with any
31:17
Speaker 2: connection between Ben Franklin, other than the fact that the
31:21
Speaker 2: American Philosophical Society, which was founded by Ben Franklin, does
31:26
Speaker 2: have two books of Kelpius is in their library. One
31:31
Speaker 2: of them is the Diarrheum of Magister Johannes Kelpius, and
31:36
Speaker 2: that is from nineteen seventeen reprinted, so it's not even
31:41
Speaker 2: an original. And then they also have the Journal of
31:44
Speaker 2: Johannes Kelpius, Magister of the Hermits on the Ridge in Pennsylvania,
31:48
Speaker 2: sixteen ninety four seventy eight. So those two I think
31:51
Speaker 2: are the only surviving actual accounts from Kelpius himself. Yeah,
31:58
Speaker 2: a lot of there were there maybe was some other
31:59
Speaker 2: correspondents or something like that, but it was not a
32:02
Speaker 2: whole lot. None of his actual philosophy is codified in
32:06
Speaker 2: any kind of like expansive works.
32:09
Speaker 1: Right right, Those those are the two books that we're
32:13
Speaker 1: aware of. There is one other, I thought, fascinating paranormal story.
32:19
Speaker 1: If we want to continue getting with the man. Okay,
32:22
Speaker 1: so we said that after his death, the Brotherhood, the
32:27
Speaker 1: society dwindles down at one point. There are just six
32:31
Speaker 1: let's call them hardcore monks, zelots, ardent believers, and they
32:35
Speaker 1: were led by a guy named Conrad Mathi Mathi. Let's
32:39
Speaker 1: go with that.
32:40
Speaker 2: Yeah, like ah, Mathi, there we go perfect.
32:43
Speaker 1: But eventually the group starts breaking down further and further
32:48
Speaker 1: and further. And that guy we mentioned, Christopher Witt, who
32:52
Speaker 1: moved to Germantown. He also quit the uh the group,
32:56
Speaker 1: but he continued a lot of his hobbies that he
32:59
Speaker 1: had from his time I'm in the group, and he
33:01
Speaker 1: did pretty well. By seventeen eighteen, he was a wealthy man.
33:05
Speaker 1: He had bought over one hundred and twenty acres of land,
33:09
Speaker 1: but he was always under suspicion in town of being
33:13
Speaker 1: get this, null a hexenmeister.
33:16
Speaker 2: Is it like a witchy dude?
33:17
Speaker 4: Yeah?
33:18
Speaker 1: Yeah, so people thought he was maybe using his magic.
33:24
Speaker 1: His magical abilities were his esoteric wisdom to get ahead
33:28
Speaker 1: in the secular world. And they also continued to provide
33:33
Speaker 1: services of a paranormal or spiritual type to the community.
33:38
Speaker 1: This guy I just mentioned, Conrad Mathi, cast horoscopes, He
33:43
Speaker 1: performed exorcisms. He said he could travel outside of his
33:46
Speaker 1: own body. There was a book called The Pietist of
33:49
Speaker 1: Provincial Pennsylvania, written by Like Yes, written by a guy
33:55
Speaker 1: named Julius Sache, who says the following about Conrad. A
34:00
Speaker 1: captain's wife allegedly asked Conrad in seventeen forty when he
34:05
Speaker 1: could expect her husband's ship to return. So the guy
34:08
Speaker 1: goes into his chamber, lays down in a trance for
34:12
Speaker 1: an hour. Then he wakes up. He comes back in
34:15
Speaker 1: and he tells this lady her husband is at a
34:17
Speaker 1: London coffee house and he's preparing to set sail for
34:22
Speaker 1: the New World. And when the captain returns, you know,
34:26
Speaker 1: several months later whatever, he meets Conrad. And then the
34:29
Speaker 1: first thing he says, again according to this story, is
34:32
Speaker 1: that he was in a London coffee house and saw
34:35
Speaker 1: the dude Conrad himself, staring at him. And he said
34:40
Speaker 1: he remembered the encounter because apparently the old man Conrad
34:44
Speaker 1: had come up and yelled to him about not writing
34:46
Speaker 1: to his wife. That's got to be total malarchy, rude.
34:50
Speaker 1: But what a great story.
34:51
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good one. Good way to cap this
34:53
Speaker 2: one off. You got anything else?
34:55
Speaker 3: Uh?
34:55
Speaker 1: You know what I think we can call it? Oh? No,
34:59
Speaker 1: do you hear that.
35:00
Speaker 2: Really.
35:00
Speaker 1: Oh man, it's.
35:01
Speaker 2: Been so long.
35:02
Speaker 1: We had such a streak going.
35:03
Speaker 3: It's actually it's been so.
35:09
Speaker 1: Long Jonathan Strickland quiz. You've been working on that laugh.
35:15
Speaker 2: You've been celebrating. Gentlemen. Missing satellite's weird, have you. It's
35:20
Speaker 2: like the way you miss a like a sharp pain
35:24
Speaker 2: in your side.
35:24
Speaker 3: Well suddenly you wake up one morning and you think, oh,
35:27
Speaker 3: that's different.
35:27
Speaker 2: Yes, that's kind of miss it.
35:29
Speaker 3: Now, that's very sweet of you.
35:31
Speaker 1: Day after a chiropractor kind of longing.
35:34
Speaker 3: Well, just consider me your spinal adjustment of love. Here.
35:37
Speaker 5: I am all right to give you yet another perplexing scenario.
35:43
Speaker 3: Whereupon you must decide whether or not it is truth
35:45
Speaker 3: or fiction within the span of thirty minutes.
35:48
Speaker 2: You know, I put forth a perplexing scenario or a
35:51
Speaker 2: notion that my theory is that you we haven't seen
35:54
Speaker 2: you for so long because you're going around and messing
35:56
Speaker 2: with other podcasts that we don't know about.
35:58
Speaker 1: Is that true?
35:59
Speaker 3: I can neither confirm nor deny.
36:03
Speaker 1: Have you been podcast cheating on us? Man?
36:05
Speaker 3: I listen, Ben, listen, listen, hey, listen, Ben. Things are
36:12
Speaker 3: complicated right now. Check my Facebook status.
36:14
Speaker 4: Oh man, it's just you never know when someone needs
36:18
Speaker 4: to be, you know, shown up by wow, having to
36:23
Speaker 4: prove their ability.
36:25
Speaker 3: I had a proposed strengths.
36:27
Speaker 1: I have defended you on this show.
36:30
Speaker 3: Listen, Ben, listen, listen. No mortgages don't pay themselves. Bend
36:35
Speaker 3: all right, you know what we.
36:37
Speaker 2: Uster caves don't come cheap most the.
36:40
Speaker 3: Most cringe worthy segment and all the podcasting yet again.
36:43
Speaker 3: And of course here we have recently celebrated the fourth
36:47
Speaker 3: of July.
36:49
Speaker 1: That is true, that is true.
36:51
Speaker 5: In fact today is the fifth of July. In fact,
36:54
Speaker 5: as we record this stuff in July. And so the
36:57
Speaker 5: question today, our scenario today has to do with someone
37:02
Speaker 5: who was very much connected to the declaration of independence.
37:09
Speaker 5: And so you will get your scenario the time I
37:12
Speaker 5: will start at three minutes. You will of course have
37:14
Speaker 5: to ask questions of me, and I.
37:17
Speaker 2: Use that one with the constitution. Is that going to
37:19
Speaker 2: be a problem we will see.
37:22
Speaker 3: But in order in order to ask a question this time,
37:24
Speaker 3: I always give you an arbitrary rule. Yes, time, if
37:27
Speaker 3: you wish to ask a question me, you must first
37:29
Speaker 3: say sit down, John.
37:33
Speaker 1: All right.
37:34
Speaker 3: Reference to a musical called seventeen seventy six, Go watch
37:37
Speaker 3: it Noel.
37:37
Speaker 5: All right, here's your scenario.
37:41
Speaker 3: Prepare yourself and start the timer.
37:43
Speaker 1: When I am done, Hey, let me warm up, because,
37:45
Speaker 1: as longtime listeners know, I have to get a running
37:48
Speaker 1: start to jump and hit the hit the second hand
37:50
Speaker 1: in this Grandfather clock. We spent so much money on it.
37:53
Speaker 3: If you could get the touch screen on that Grandfather
37:56
Speaker 3: clock activated and just unlock it now so that you
37:58
Speaker 3: can hype in the number.
38:00
Speaker 1: Here we go, we're working live man.
38:02
Speaker 3: Along with doctor Lyman Hall and George Walton Button, Gwinette
38:09
Speaker 3: signed the Declaration of Independence representing the Colony of Georgia.
38:14
Speaker 3: He would return to Georgia to serve as president. He
38:17
Speaker 3: also maintained a rivalry with Lachlan Macintosh, a Scotsman who
38:22
Speaker 3: served in the American Army as a brigadier general, which
38:25
Speaker 3: was a position that Gwinette had coveted. Gwinett commanded Macintosh
38:30
Speaker 3: to conduct an invasion of East Florida during the Revolution.
38:34
Speaker 3: The invasion was a terrible failure. The two men blamed
38:37
Speaker 3: one another for the fiasco and it all resulted in
38:40
Speaker 3: a duel. However, on the morning the duel was to
38:44
Speaker 3: take place in southern Georgia, near the border of Florida.
38:49
Speaker 3: As Button Gwinette walked his way to Lachland Macintosh, he
38:53
Speaker 3: was bitten by a venomous snake suspected by historians to
38:57
Speaker 3: be a coral snake. And while the bite itself might
38:59
Speaker 3: not have been fatal, the medical attention that was given
39:02
Speaker 3: to him certainly was, and he died of infection a
39:05
Speaker 3: week and a half later.
39:07
Speaker 1: Start the clock, all right, we are start, give me
39:11
Speaker 1: a running start. Boom. Okay, sit down, John, yes, mister Bolin,
39:17
Speaker 1: could you tell us again where this duel allegedly took place.
39:21
Speaker 3: Southern Georgia, not too far from the border of Florida, Okay,
39:25
Speaker 3: near what is now known as Fort McIntosh. As as
39:29
Speaker 3: it turns.
39:29
Speaker 1: Out, and Button Gwinnette, so we know there's a Gwinnette county.
39:33
Speaker 2: We know about Button. I remember him from Georgia history
39:35
Speaker 2: as a boy, you know.
39:37
Speaker 1: And McIntosh is a common name for institutions here in Georgia.
39:43
Speaker 2: Was confused Button Gwinnette with Oglethorpe. Though, just like I do,
39:46
Speaker 2: the declaration of independs with the Constitution. I am a
39:48
Speaker 2: really bad historian.
39:49
Speaker 1: You know, We're not bad. No, we're ridiculous.
39:53
Speaker 2: That's right, that's our whole thing's so.
39:55
Speaker 1: Yeah.
39:56
Speaker 2: One thing I don't remember from Georgia history is hearing
39:58
Speaker 2: anything about a snake bit but.
40:00
Speaker 1: Right also coral snakes. That's standing out to me. I
40:04
Speaker 1: am very tempted to just go false.
40:06
Speaker 2: Yeah, you just well, do we sit down? John is
40:11
Speaker 2: the is the kicker that he died from poor medical
40:16
Speaker 2: like we we are we it's been so long are
40:18
Speaker 2: we trying to discern if like any detail of the
40:21
Speaker 2: story is true, the whole thing is not true. If
40:23
Speaker 2: if if you're saying he died from poor medical attention,
40:26
Speaker 2: but then there was a detail in there that.
40:28
Speaker 3: Was any one detail there could make this statement that's false.
40:33
Speaker 2: That is how that works.
40:35
Speaker 3: So it is either all true or all false, or
40:40
Speaker 3: there's some falsehood in it. But if there's just some falsehood.
40:43
Speaker 5: In it is still inherently okay, all or nothing.
40:47
Speaker 2: I'm locking in false babies, all right? Me personally, I'm
40:49
Speaker 2: mean I'm rocking.
40:51
Speaker 1: Let's yeah, yeah, let's let's count it down and make
40:53
Speaker 1: it official.
40:53
Speaker 2: Grow three two?
40:55
Speaker 1: What false?
40:57
Speaker 3: Gentlemen, you have defeated me finally, I believe now I'm
41:07
Speaker 3: only three ahead, you.
41:09
Speaker 1: Know, one day at a time, man, Yeah, yeah, hey,
41:11
Speaker 1: Casey key play of Victory music.
41:14
Speaker 3: Naked naked, a dirge, case and dirge. So here here
41:18
Speaker 3: are the actual.
41:19
Speaker 2: Yes, there was a duel.
41:20
Speaker 1: There was a duel.
41:21
Speaker 3: I remember that Button Gwinnette did wish to be Brigadier
41:24
Speaker 3: general at the American Revolutionary War. Lachlan McIntosh, his political rival,
41:29
Speaker 3: got that. And then when he returned to Georgia, he
41:32
Speaker 3: was first elected Speaker of the House of Georgia as
41:35
Speaker 3: well as a Commander in chief of the of the
41:38
Speaker 3: Georgia Forces. And he did, in fact order McIntosh to
41:42
Speaker 3: invade East Florida, British colony.
41:45
Speaker 1: Uh huh.
41:46
Speaker 3: It did not go well because McIntosh did not have
41:49
Speaker 3: the resources needed. He returned to Georgia and then he
41:52
Speaker 3: proceeded to bad mouth Button Gwinette in front of the
41:55
Speaker 3: Georgia Assembly.
41:56
Speaker 2: You go bad mouth and Button in front of the
41:58
Speaker 2: assembly man a.
41:59
Speaker 3: Duel was a changed McIntosh totally shot Button Gwinnette, and
42:05
Speaker 3: Button Gwinette died about three days later. On May nineteenth,
42:08
Speaker 3: seventeen seventy seven, a signer of the Declaration of Independence
42:12
Speaker 3: shot by a soldier who served in the Revolutionary Army.
42:18
Speaker 1: So no no coral snakes.
42:20
Speaker 3: What no coral snakes, not bitten by a snake. He
42:24
Speaker 3: was merely shot by a.
42:25
Speaker 2: Scotsman, shot by a Scotsman, just.
42:27
Speaker 3: As fatal as it turns out.
42:28
Speaker 2: Now I'm interested. Maybe I missed this. How did the
42:31
Speaker 2: Scotsman end up fighting for the American cause?
42:34
Speaker 1: He was?
42:35
Speaker 3: He was given the position of brigadier general, So they
42:38
Speaker 3: were both up for consideration for brigadier general rivals, and
42:42
Speaker 3: Button Gwinnette was passed over. Button Gwinette's closest ally was
42:46
Speaker 3: doctor Lyman Hall. And as you mentioned, we have a
42:48
Speaker 3: Gwinnette County. We also have a Hall County. Oh yeah, yeah,
42:51
Speaker 3: that is where I am from, Hall County.
42:53
Speaker 1: Okay, getting to know you? Is that where your layer is.
42:57
Speaker 3: In Hall County? Heavens? No, are you what an old
43:00
Speaker 3: fourth ward man?
43:01
Speaker 1: Now? Well, Jonathan, what a tremendous pleasure to have finally
43:08
Speaker 1: started winning some of these, right, Noel.
43:10
Speaker 2: I know, but I'm not getting enough remorse from you.
43:13
Speaker 2: I'm not sensing still three ahead. Well, I know, but
43:16
Speaker 2: I almost feel like you threw us a little bit
43:18
Speaker 2: of a softball with this one. While I appreciate it,
43:21
Speaker 2: I also somewhat resent it.
43:23
Speaker 3: Oh and then I'll come at you extra hard next time.
43:28
Speaker 1: So what will happen next ridiculous historians? Will the tension
43:32
Speaker 1: continue to simmer? Will we get closer and closer to
43:35
Speaker 1: an even score or fall further into the hole. There's
43:39
Speaker 1: only one way to find out. Well, there are several,
43:41
Speaker 1: but there's one way we would like you to find out. Yeah,
43:43
Speaker 1: you know, listen to the show, continue to subscribe to
43:46
Speaker 1: my twitter feed. You'll find out about it.
43:48
Speaker 2: Hey, ay, now, yeah, Hey, what's this other show?
43:51
Speaker 1: I'm not at liberty to say no, what's the other show?
43:55
Speaker 2: I have no idea.
43:56
Speaker 1: Oh, you guys are making me so paranoid.
43:58
Speaker 2: That's fine, that's part of the whole interaction here is paranoia.
44:01
Speaker 2: But seriously, thank you for coming again, Jonathan Strickland, the
44:05
Speaker 2: devious quister. We appreciate it, Slash resent it heavily.
44:11
Speaker 6: Thanks for helping us learn stuff, man, that's true. Love
44:13
Speaker 6: you too, and thank you folks for tuning into the show.
44:16
Speaker 6: We hope you'll join us next time where we talk
44:18
Speaker 6: about a bunch of states that never were that have
44:22
Speaker 6: a lot of fun names and stories.
44:24
Speaker 2: And just just listen to the episode. It'll be good.
44:27
Speaker 2: In the meantime, you can write to us at ridiculous
44:29
Speaker 2: at HowStuffWorks dot com. You can check us out on
44:32
Speaker 2: the typical social media channels. Our preferred method of communication
44:37
Speaker 2: with our ridiculous historian community is through our Facebook group
44:40
Speaker 2: of that very name, Ridiculous Historians, And we actually just
44:43
Speaker 2: came out with an episode that featured some stuff from
44:46
Speaker 2: that very community and we had a really good time
44:48
Speaker 2: doing it, and we'll probably do it again. So check
44:50
Speaker 2: that out and drop some memes or stories or questions
44:54
Speaker 2: or ideas on there. You might hear it in an episode.
44:57
Speaker 1: Yes, and you may well hear from us from Casey
45:01
Speaker 1: Nol and myself. A big thanks, of course, as always
45:04
Speaker 1: to super producer Casey Pegrom, big thanks to Alex Williams
45:07
Speaker 1: who composed the track. You know what, Big thanks to
45:09
Speaker 1: everybody except Jonathan.
45:12
Speaker 2: Thanks to Christopher Ossiotis.
45:14
Speaker 1: Jonathan, you got you're making a stink Facebook. I love
45:17
Speaker 1: you do know, guys, I'm feeling the emanations of affection here.
45:22
Speaker 2: That's mpty is what you're feeling.
45:24
Speaker 1: Well, the course of true love never did run smooth. Lee,
45:29
Speaker 1: Thanks for tuning in everyone, goodbye.
45:38
Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app Apple
45:41
Speaker 2: Podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,