Latest / Be A Global Citizen! / 212. HGSE Global Citizen: Simon Chow: Navigating Belonging as a First Gen Student in Local and International Spaces

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212. HGSE Global Citizen: Simon Chow: Navigating Belonging as a First Gen Student in Local and International Spaces · Be A Global Citizen!

• 0:05
  Hi there, and welcome to Be a Global Citizen, the podcast that
• 0:08
  explores the concept of global citizenship through the lens of
• 0:11
  value creating education. My name is Scott Bauer and I'm
• 0:15
  Ahsoka, researcher and educator. I hope you find the discussion,
• 0:18
  stories and insights on this podcast to be valuable and
• 0:21
  inspiring as we strive to become global citizens who are
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  committed to living a contributive life.
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  Enjoy. All right, hi everyone.
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  My name is Simon Chow, I'm based out of Los Angeles, CA and I'm a
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  higher Ed professional, former higher Ed professional now soon
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  to be researcher at UCLA Graduate School of Education and
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  Information Sciences, incoming PhD candidates, so very excited
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  for that. Otherwise, I love basketball.
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  Huge Laker fan, Angel City fan as well, and I'm happy to just,
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  you know, be here, talk with my friends, scout about a higher
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  Ed. Awesome, thank you so much Simon
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  for, for joining me on the podcast.
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  I, I'm really excited to learn more about your story because I
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  feel that you know your, your research interests, right.
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  But what you're pursuing with your PhD at UCLA is very much
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  aligned with, with your own lived experiences and which
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  makes it all the more powerful. I'm really happy that we can
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  have this this space to to learn more about your journey.
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  So just wanted to pass it back to you and ask you what were
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  some of the milestones of your your own educator journey?
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  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thanks, Scott.
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  Thanks for asking. So in terms of milestones, I
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  guess my first big one was just getting into college.
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  I'm first Gen. college student. Either my parents went to
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  college abroad or here in the US they're both immigrants.
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  I'm an immigrant myself, grew up in in LA trying to tell LA
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  specifically. So pretty much inner city kid
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  finding college was first time, first in my family to do so.
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  And I think tracing back to like the beginning of that journey.
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  Like I was part of this group called college match LA and they
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  provided a lot of counseling and support during this time.
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  So there are SAT classes, I say workshops and also counselors
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  that were assigned to like, help us understand the college
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  process. And I think it was just like
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  such a huge kind of first step in this journey leading up to
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  where I'm at now. And it's great because that
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  program introduced me to a lot of like these small liberal arts
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  private universities and colleges in the East Coast.
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  So growing up, you know, LA Chinatown, it's like all the
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  UCSUCLA, UC Berkeley, all the, all the Ivy Leagues and those
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  like the main schools that the parents in the community talks
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  about. So I think for me it was just
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  like, kind of like, you know, I, I saw myself and everybody else
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  in this community going towards a certain path.
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  And with College Match LA, they introduced that introduced a
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  very different path of like, OK, you could actually go to these
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  like, you know, small liberal arts colleges where there's more
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  of a focus on undergraduate experiences and also just, you
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  know, quite frankly, better financial aid packages and
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  grants or, you know, these are real small schools with huge
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  endowments and, you know, very robust financial aid and
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  scholarship program. So I think the the the directors
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  and the founders of this program.
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  So the founder is his name is Harley Frankel.
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  Really, really. Yeah, a very inspirational man
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  in in this journey. And he and the, the counselors
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  and also Erica Rosales, who's currently the the director, they
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  kind of create this really cool program where they introduce us
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  as all these different possibilities.
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  And also in a way, let us know that you know, when you apply to
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  college that you kind of deserve to be there because we were
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  already recruited based on our outstanding grades, involvement,
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  extracurriculars, etcetera, and also based on our testing as
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  well. So there's been kind of this
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  kind of pre admissions admissions work, so to speak, or
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  the screening that's already happened.
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  And I think what was really cool is that they kind of imbued this
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  belief that like, Oh yeah, sure, you're from the inner city,
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  you're an immigrant or you can immigrant your first Gen. but
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  you're also high in need. But you when you get to these
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  schools, like, you know, you're just as kind of worthy of being
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  there. So sensible longing and belief
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  in belief in myself and also other folks who identify with
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  this, you know, first generation identity.
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  That was kind of a big pillar in, in my journey.
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  So I'm eternally grateful for them.
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  They introduced me to schools in the East Coast.
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  So I learned a lot about these different schools.
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  And one that stood out was Bowden College, which is where I
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  ended up going. And I, it's crazy talking about
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  this because I remember explaining to my, my very
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  Chinese tiger mom about this and she was like, how do you, how do
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  you say this name? Like, you know, everybody
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  struggles to say it because it's, you know, such an
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  interesting spelling of BOWDOIN Boden.
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  But I think what my mother was confused about was what, what is
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  this school? Where is it?
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  It's located in Brunswick, ME. And and lastly, like, you know,
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  can I brag to my friends about this school?
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  Can I, can I brag to so and so in the neighborhood or, you
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  know, your aunts and aunties or and uncles in China about what
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  school you're going to? And the answer to that was no,
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  But it was, I think what, what drew me to a school like bone
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  was that it was just like a small, close knit community.
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  And I felt like in these small liberal arts schools, you
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  actually get to really engage with professors.
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  I learned that really quickly during the trials that, oh, wow,
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  people here like, really know each other.
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  And the professors seem like, you know, they're not just busy
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  hidden away doing some obscure research.
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  You're actually like, you know, around my campus, they're
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  talking to you. They're inviting students
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  through the research. So I think to me as someone who
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  really valued wanting to learn, like actually learn for the sake
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  of learning, I think that was just a really nice robust and
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  kind of inclusive environment I felt from that kind of from the
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  from the academic side of things.
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  So yeah, that was my first journey going to Bowden College.
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  And when I was there, I worked at the admissions office as
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  well. So I think it was really cool
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  because the, the admission counselor who like basically
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  recruited me or you know, came by my high school and talked to
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  me and my friends. She ended up working, you know,
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  she continue working at the admissions office and then I
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  worked as a, as a summer intern. So I would see her around and
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  she's now the the VP of admissions and financial aid at
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  Bonin. So it was just great also seeing
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  her journey kind of like through the years and fun fact, so her
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  name's Claudia. She's great.
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  She's amazing. She and I both did our graduate
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  degrees around the same time when we were at Housie.
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  So it was really cool seeing her there at graduation.
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  But she was more like kind of like in this, it was like around
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  2022. So it's like hybrid.
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  And like I felt like it was, it was just hard to see people on
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  campus. But just knowing that like this
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  person who like basically advocated for me to go to
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  college is now like also doing this master's degree.
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  And we're kind of like in this together trying to figure out
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  ways to, again, help more first general income students of color
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  into college. So it was so many full circle
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  moments. Wow.
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  Thank you so much, Simon. I, I find that you know this,
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  this journey of yours, yours and your families might wider
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  community in, in Chinatown, LA area.
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  It's it's one in which like, of course, you had to work very,
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  very hard. But it sounds like there were
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  these support structures, right, these organizations like college
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  match LA that were there to really show you new pathways,
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  right? And, and open up your, your mind
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  to not just like what is out there, but also what is the
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  meaning of getting an undergraduate, you know, degree
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  to go to college? What does it mean, you know, to
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  really learn and find community, right?
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  To, to find that fit within the college space.
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  And I love that, you know, you were exposed to these small
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  liberal arts colleges, you know, on the East Coast or just, you
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  know, across the US because I actually went to a small parks
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  college myself. And I can attest to everything
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  that you just shared about how it's it really allowed you to
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  like connect and engage with professors, give you a sense of
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  community learning for the sake of, of learning.
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  All of that, I think really helps one to understand what
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  their, their real passion or their passions are and, and have
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  the confidence that, you know, yeah, you why not you to
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  continue to pursue that and, and contribute towards those bodies
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  of knowledge as well as the communities with which, you
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  know, that knowledge serves, you know, for them.
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  And I, I think it's like, yeah, it's never any coincidence,
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  right? Where you, you end up in terms
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  of like, yeah, going to, to Boden College and then from
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  there to, to Hugsie to Harvard. But yeah, yeah, there's so much
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  about your, your journey that I, you know, it's so fascinating.
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  And, and I wanted to follow up on maybe a more personal note
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  because I know like being that you're a first Gen. college
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  student and you're talking about how both your parents were
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  immigrants. Could you, could you speak a
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  little bit more about what, what that journey was like for them
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  in terms of like their decisions to come to California?
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  And what was it initially like kind of just getting set up, you
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  know, here because it was this kind of transplant right from
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  from one culture with a different language to a
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  completely new one. So what was that like for your,
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  your like, what were some of the decisions your parents had to
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  make in order to do this? And then also, what was it like
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  for you, as like a recent transplant, to adapt to a very
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  different cultural milieu? Yeah, yeah.
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  A huge common theme within my journey is migration.
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  I think migration both for my family from China to the US and
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  then from me from LA to Brunswick, ME and just to kind
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  of like, you know, take it back to the beginning.
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  So my family, we're from, we're from southern China, we're from
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  Toysan. So Toysan is, you know, small
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  little little village in China, but there's been a huge history
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  of immigration of Toisanis folks into the US for a long time.
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  If you watch sinners. So in sinners, there's the the
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  Chow family, Grace and Bo Chow, and they're from they're from
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  Toisan. And I know because watching that
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  movie, when Remake, you know, spoilers, sorry, but when Remake
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  was speaking their Chinese dialect, I was like, I know that
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  dialect, you know, I think speaking my language.
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  So, yeah, there's been a huge history of, you know, folks from
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  Toy sign to the US, you know, so for a long time.
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  But you know, we, we, we, yeah, we were, I was born in Toy sign,
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  grew up there for about 3 or 4 years.
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  And we, we migrated to the US in like the early 2000s.
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  And the primary purpose or the primary reasons was to find a
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  better life. I think back then Toyota was
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  more like kind of like working class.
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  You know, there, there weren't, you know, the greatest
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  opportunities for, for, for like social mobility and whatnot.
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  And, you know, as, as we know, coming to the US, the American
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  dream to work hard, save money, make it out here.
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  So that's why we, we, that's why the family immigrated.
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  But yeah, we we migrated from Toyota all the way to Los
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  Angeles in Chinatown at this place called Chungking Rd.
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  And I remember distinctly leaving the airport, getting
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  into that parking lot in that taxi and getting off and looking
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  at this place and going like, wow, this is the new life now.
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  Like we're we're here now. I think I didn't really
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  understand as a kid, but I think I realized like, oh, shoot, like
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  the next day, my friends aren't here and I'm not going to this
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  school anymore. I'm like doing something else.
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  So that was kind of like a big moment.
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  Also click side fun fact. So Chunking Rd. is, is where
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  Everything Everywhere All at Once was also filmed.
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  And this is going to be another common theme like, you know, the
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  city of LA and also just all these connections with, with
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  like movies and storytelling. So there's a scene in Everything
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  Everywhere All at Once where I think it was Wayman and, and,
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  you know, and Michelle Yo's character, they just, they had
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  just moved to the US and they're going to start their laundry
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  laundromat business. And they, I think it was like
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  the younger versions of them, like the DH version versions of
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  them coming in and their only where they got off the car was
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  also the same place where I got off the car, like going into
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  Chunky Road. And they were filmed in this
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  alleyway. And I was like, I recognize that
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  alleyway like the back of my hand because there's, you know,
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  there's these apartments, but behind these apartments there's
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  like these Chinese restaurants. You have the chefs out there
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  smoking cigarettes, squatting down in between breaks.
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  So that visual imagery watching that movie and also just kind of
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  reflecting on my own was just really crazy because it's just,
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  it's so real in the like Asian American kind of diaspora and
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  like move like wanting a better life here, like trying to
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  achieve that dream. But anyways, I digress.
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  Chongqing Rd. grew up there. And I think what's really cool
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  is that Chinatown is a very kind of like, I see it as somewhat of
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  like a bridge town because, you know, people, when I remember as
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  a kid looking around, I was like, oh, like, people still
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  look like me for the most part because Chinatown, you know,
• 13:56
  full of Chinese people. And I didn't really leave
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  Chinatown much as a kid. I mean, I was a young kid and,
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  you know, we just went to school, went home and hung out
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  in the neighborhood. So, but I think as I grew older
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  and I spent more time just exploring, hanging out, like,
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  you know, obviously in the city of LA, you see folks from
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  different backgrounds coming into Chinatown in and out.
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  So it was just like, I think growing up in Chinatown ease the
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  transition from like China to America to LA more specifically.
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  And I think that was just such like a, a fascinating experience
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  because it, to me looking back, it felt seamless, like grew up
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  with a bunch of, you know, only Chinese people in China and our
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  region going to Chinatown, seeing still a lot of Chinese
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  people, but also a little different people too.
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  And, and then eventually making my way to the East Coast, where
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  in Maine, the state population is like 9597% white.
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  So then the migration of my body and like the different racial
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  and ethnic backgrounds and also the history and the stories that
• 15:00
  connected all to. So that was kind of like the
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  beginning of it. And and then you went off to
• 15:05
  Harvard and that's a very international student body as
• 15:09
  well. So it just seems like there's
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  these well, how, how can I frame this?
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  Because I mean, in a way, like when you're younger, right?
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  It probably was really fortunate to to have had that kind of like
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  community, the Chinese American community to kind of like
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  cushion, right? The the blow of like culture
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  shock, but at the same time, right uprooting yourself and
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  having to create a brand new, you know, friend group is always
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  quite daunting. And then as you continue to, you
• 15:41
  know, form your sense of identity, right anchored in
• 15:44
  community and then going off to the East Coast and then finally
• 15:48
  finding a very different community.
• 15:51
  I would imagine that that also like it presented a challenge,
• 15:56
  but also an opportunity to really share your culture right
• 16:01
  from Chinatown and your story of, you know, being immigrant
• 16:05
  from China. Like what was what was that kind
• 16:08
  of like? And were you in a kind of like
• 16:10
  mind space entering into that community of wanting to share
• 16:14
  that? Because sometimes, you know, I
• 16:15
  can imagine you're just like, Hey, I just want to, I just want
• 16:18
  to study like psychology or I want to take this one course in
• 16:21
  economics. But now you're asking me about,
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  you know, my, my background out of, you know, kind of wherever
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  their sense of fascinations coming from.
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  Did you lean into that as, you know, an opportunity or did you
• 16:33
  see it as more of like a kind of like a challenge of like trying
• 16:37
  to make sense of your story and then repackage it for a very
• 16:41
  different kind of person? Yeah.
• 16:43
  Yeah, Yeah. I mean, I think that question is
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  kind of like a central question in a lot of the the research in
• 16:49
  the classes I took too when I was at boat.
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  So, you know, grew up in Chinatown, spend my time there
• 16:56
  and then I went to boat in and, you know, boat in is it's
• 16:59
  undeniably a really good school. I think they do really good job
• 17:02
  with education and like, you know, providing resources and,
• 17:06
  and just also just connections and whatnot.
• 17:09
  But it is very different. I kind of joke sometimes, you
• 17:13
  know, I was truly a fish out of water, so to speak.
• 17:19
  You know, my Chinese mom jokes about, Oh, you just want to get
• 17:21
  as far away as possible from like, you know, from me and I'm
• 17:25
  like, no mother, it's a great school.
• 17:26
  I'll come home during the break. So I love you, but I think it is
• 17:31
  very different. I think Boden was the first time
• 17:35
  I was introduced to so much wealth and whiteness, and those
• 17:41
  two very much intertwined in those bases.
• 17:44
  I mean, Boden is a PWI. It's a predominantly white
• 17:46
  institution. It's in Maine and it's a very
• 17:50
  old school with a lot of deep connections in history to the
• 17:53
  New England area. Also historically white.
• 17:55
  So I, I noticed it when I visited as a high schooler, but
• 18:00
  I just kind of didn't think too much about it because I was more
• 18:04
  in the headspace of like, you know, sure, there's, you know,
• 18:06
  white people here, but I've interacted with white folks
• 18:09
  before. I've grown out with them.
• 18:10
  I, you know, how many white teachers and counselors and, you
• 18:14
  know, some friends during summer camps and, and basketball what
• 18:17
  not. So it wasn't like a big thing
• 18:19
  for me, but but it wasn't until I was like living there.
• 18:23
  Then I was kind of like experiencing like, oh, like it
• 18:25
  really stands out in in the more like subtle ways.
• 18:29
  I think this is kind of like where the, the academic side of,
• 18:34
  of the research really came in. Like I remember.
• 18:37
  So this leads to why I took education and sociology as my
• 18:42
  majors, because I remember going around campus and feeling really
• 18:47
  like, out of place and like, you know, like, do I really belong
• 18:50
  here? Like, I know, like, you know, on
• 18:52
  paper that yes, I earned the grades.
• 18:54
  I earned the admissions to this place and, you know, my
• 18:56
  counselors, all my friends, like, yeah, like, you worked
• 18:58
  your ass off and you deserve to be at a place like this.
• 19:01
  But there was really just kind of like this little like, like,
• 19:04
  like, I don't, I don't feel that kind of belonging as much as I
• 19:10
  did back home. And, you know, there's obvious
• 19:13
  answers to that. Like I miss ethnic food that I
• 19:17
  grew up with. I miss all the Chinese home
• 19:19
  cooking. I miss, you know, seeing, you
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  know, I miss the LA tacos. I miss the music that was here
• 19:27
  just kind of hanging around. You know, I boat in Brunswick.
• 19:31
  It's it gets real quiet sometimes.
• 19:33
  It's, you know, out there, it gets real quiet.
• 19:37
  There's also a lot of just kind of this you have to be on in the
• 19:41
  way where you're you're like, you know, voting student.
• 19:45
  You're a a smart intellectuals, you know, preppy kid at this
• 19:49
  private school. So I you know, coming from the
• 19:52
  inner city public school, I was just kind of like, oh, this is,
• 19:54
  you know, this is very different.
• 19:55
  And and I think the environment and like the the vibe of the
• 19:59
  place really kind of start to permeate a little bit more and
• 20:01
  more into like my consciousness. But yeah, I felt that for a
• 20:05
  while. And I think it was like the
• 20:07
  first month or so was like pretty tough that, you know, the
• 20:10
  culture shock and just the difference.
• 20:12
  But I think I started I I started taking education classes
• 20:16
  and I think I remember just kind of like learning about the
• 20:21
  history of education in the US and also about these
• 20:25
  predominantly white institutions and how like historically they
• 20:28
  cater to a certain audience, you know, white male from a wealthy
• 20:32
  background it from the Northeast.
• 20:34
  So it kind of brought a lot more sense into this feeling that I
• 20:39
  had. And I was like, oh, yeah, of
• 20:40
  course. Like, you know, now I know like
• 20:42
  I don't feel I like I truly belong here because this place
• 20:46
  was not made originally for people who looked like me or
• 20:49
  came from my background necessarily.
• 20:51
  So I think that was just kind of like just seeing how education
• 20:55
  and education studies in itself really gave me the tools to help
• 20:58
  articulate exactly and also to help position myself with where
• 21:03
  I am at. And I think that's also where
• 21:05
  sociology came in because a big tenant in sociology is, you
• 21:09
  know, the sociological imagination, which is the
• 21:12
  understanding of the self within society, the differences between
• 21:15
  the two and the connections between the two.
• 21:17
  So I kind of developed this idea of like, Oh yeah, you know,
• 21:20
  first Gen. low income inner city student, like, you know, those
• 21:25
  all are check marks that aren't tied to like the historical
• 21:29
  population of a place like Bun. So yes, this really makes sense.
• 21:32
  But then after that, it's kind of like, you know, now that I
• 21:35
  know this is So what I think is So what was kind of like tied
• 21:39
  into like more of their lived experiences.
• 21:41
  It's like, OK, like, as you know, first chance you're like,
• 21:44
  I feel out of place. Now what I do about that?
• 21:47
  Like do I just kind of like acknowledge it intellectually
• 21:49
  and then all of a sudden like, you know, everything's OK.
• 21:51
  Or do I, you know, learn to build What kind of kept me going
• 21:55
  when I was back home? Like do I, how do I recreate
• 21:58
  community here? Like I mentioned earlier, I miss
• 22:00
  ethnic food. Like how do we go about bringing
• 22:03
  that here on campus and just find different ways to just kind
• 22:08
  of find each other in terms of just other folks who feel the
• 22:13
  same or also, you know, pieces of ourselves that we we realize
• 22:18
  that really matter a lot more. That was just kind of like taken
• 22:21
  for granted in our everyday life.
• 22:23
  So yeah, that that difference in experience really shaped my
• 22:27
  academic and educational journey as well.
• 22:31
  Thank you for sharing that. It's, it's fascinating because
• 22:34
  what you said about being at A, at a college like Boden, that is
• 22:39
  what is it primarily white and yes, predominantly white
• 22:45
  institution. And that there's this
• 22:47
  understanding, right from its history, that it was made with
• 22:52
  an explicit demographic and, and that that doesn't match, right,
• 22:56
  your background. And yet here you are, right.
• 22:59
  Well, at that time, taking classes there and, and one of
• 23:05
  the things that you said that you enjoyed most about your
• 23:08
  experience at that college is, was the sense of belonging,
• 23:12
  right? Being able to connect with the
• 23:14
  people there, the professors. And and so it was less, you
• 23:17
  know, this kind of like emphasis on, on, on the racial component
• 23:22
  when you speak just broadly to it.
• 23:24
  But then now you're articulating like more of the nuance of like,
• 23:27
  no, no, no, that's definitely ways came into play.
• 23:31
  But then you were speaking about the these concrete actions of
• 23:35
  like, OK, well, how can I create more belonging?
• 23:38
  How can I create more community? How can I share that with
• 23:41
  others? Or how can I find link up with,
• 23:44
  with others that have that appreciation or have a similar
• 23:47
  background? And I think that's, that's
• 23:49
  really powerful, right? It's it, it comes from a place
• 23:51
  of empowerment, a sense of wanting to create something new
• 23:56
  by adding to a culture that has a very long standing history.
• 24:00
  I'm, I'm curious because you know, you were there for your
• 24:03
  studies, you were taking courses in sociology and having your own
• 24:07
  kind of reflections on your racial and ethnic identity.
• 24:11
  So when it comes to, I guess the more like professional lens or
• 24:16
  you know, the academic lens as well.
• 24:19
  But like, how is it that you, you've, you felt like you were
• 24:22
  able to like channel your energies towards building,
• 24:26
  building something in that realm of belonging, even though like
• 24:31
  again, it was like the foundations of that place were
• 24:34
  very much set. Like how do you do you just
• 24:36
  build a top that is that, is that the the way with which you
• 24:39
  can address it or I mean, is there something more radical in
• 24:44
  terms of starting new? I mean, I'm curious like what's
• 24:48
  what's your kind of what were your initial thoughts on that?
• 24:50
  And then how has that evolved over time?
• 24:53
  Yeah, Yeah. You know, that's a great
• 24:54
  question because I think that's also a very huge tension.
• 24:58
  Not just like, you know, at boom, I think at like many of
• 25:00
  these schools, like in the US. No, at the time as a freshman, I
• 25:05
  was also trying to like learn and figure stuff out.
• 25:09
  So I did join the, the student Center for multicultural life as
• 25:13
  an intern. So I think that was a really
• 25:16
  great opportunity to kind of work, you know, within student
• 25:19
  affairs to help create the sense of belonging that I, I mentioned
• 25:23
  earlier. You know, I, I worked for
• 25:25
  Benjamin Harris, no great guy, and also met other other folks
• 25:31
  on campus who are kind of investing create a sense of
• 25:33
  belonging because that center was like the umbrella
• 25:36
  organization for all the affinity groups on campus.
• 25:39
  So you know, first Gen. groups, you know, the Asian American
• 25:43
  Association, Black Student Union or the African American society
• 25:48
  as called that voted and you know, the, the lasso group with
• 25:51
  the Latin American Student Association.
• 25:53
  So that was just like a great way of kind of meeting everyone
• 25:58
  else on campus. I think what it is at PWI is
• 26:01
  that like, you know, all the, all this, all the people of
• 26:04
  color find each other, you know, eventually we stick out like
• 26:07
  sore thumbs and we kind of, you know, see the upperclassmen, you
• 26:09
  know, we just kind of all right, you know, like the little spider
• 26:11
  man meme, you know what I'm saying?
• 26:12
  Like you just kind of pointed each other like, hey, like we're
• 26:15
  here. And I think that was kind of
• 26:19
  like a, a good starting point, just fighting each other through
• 26:21
  that. I think 2:00 the classes I took
• 26:26
  was a great way of meeting other people felt the same way.
• 26:28
  And I think what I kind of did was I was really, you know,
• 26:31
  vocal and I participated a lot in the classroom, shared a lot
• 26:34
  of my thoughts. Not, you know, sometimes I
• 26:38
  sometimes I'm just kind of like, hmm, you know, what will a
• 26:42
  person of color think about this kind of thinking or like
• 26:45
  whatnot. And I think when, when you kind
• 26:47
  of show and like show yourself and share your thoughts, you
• 26:50
  find other people who kind of like, you know, probably feel
• 26:52
  the same way, but not necessarily share it in the
• 26:55
  classroom or, you know, maybe at that time they didn't share it.
• 26:57
  So, but after class, you know, you find each other during these
• 27:00
  events, you find each other and then you just kind of from
• 27:03
  there, you know, you form these social groups and connections
• 27:07
  and then you kind of like built from there.
• 27:08
  So I think that was a really great way of meeting different
• 27:10
  people. And also the Multicultural
• 27:12
  Center had, you know, had its own funding.
• 27:15
  And a lot of me, me and my colleagues, when we worked
• 27:18
  there, we found ways to kind of use that money to like create
• 27:21
  more events, you know, like are there any conferences or
• 27:24
  retreats nearby other schools at this schools that we could
• 27:28
  create to kind of, you know, find each other and create this
• 27:30
  sense of community, people who want to self identify
• 27:33
  themselves. You know, like, I remember the
• 27:35
  first, it was like a like a a first Gen. like student of color
• 27:39
  retreat my freshman year. And that was when I met like a
• 27:42
  lot of my close friends throughout the four years I was
• 27:44
  there. And I think it was great because
• 27:46
  we found each other and then we had these like kind of breakout
• 27:49
  events. We talked about our experiences,
• 27:51
  we shared it, we bonded it. And then we just kind of like
• 27:53
  found like the other people who felt that maybe like in this
• 27:58
  general space, we don't understand belong, but like with
• 28:00
  each other, that we definitely belong in this space.
• 28:02
  So, you know, shots from the little side Cultural Center.
• 28:06
  Love my time there. Some of the projects and events
• 28:09
  that I kind of, you know, Co LED.
• 28:11
  One of them was I, I made my, I made all this food that I missed
• 28:17
  from home. So I, I talk about food a lot.
• 28:19
  Being a true LA foodie guy, I remember I did two things.
• 28:24
  I made, I made my best take on the LA St. tacos with whatever
• 28:29
  ingredients I could find in Maine.
• 28:32
  And I also made just like a very comforting classic, like, you
• 28:36
  know, chicken noodle soup that my mom used to make me.
• 28:38
  So those are the two things I made and I create like an event.
• 28:41
  I kind of just was like, you know, Benjamin was asking me
• 28:44
  also, what's the purpose of this?
• 28:45
  You know, bring a piece of home here, you know, but, you know,
• 28:47
  there's a part of me and it's like, I just want you to pay for
• 28:49
  this food I'm going to make that I missed from home for other
• 28:52
  people who will truly appreciate it while there's a movie going
• 28:55
  on in the background. But it was just like a very, it
• 28:58
  was a very rewarding experience because, you know, I spent hours
• 29:04
  like just kind of experimenting with these different marinades
• 29:06
  for the, for these tacos. And I was kind of like, it's not
• 29:09
  right. I got to get it right.
• 29:10
  You know, like, I don't, I don't want to like bring, bring this,
• 29:13
  you know, be like, oh, you know, the tacos here aren't that good.
• 29:15
  And then like, you know, show up with like not good LA style St.
• 29:20
  tacos. So I did a lot of research.
• 29:22
  I did a lot of field research when I was back home during
• 29:24
  break, you know, trying these different things, asking a lot
• 29:26
  of questions. And I made one and I, I remember
• 29:29
  kind of like, oh, yes, like this is, this is the taste profile
• 29:33
  I'm looking for. And I invited my other friend
• 29:35
  who's also from LA and I was kind of like, try these tacos.
• 29:38
  Let me know if they, you know, And she's like, Oh yeah, these
• 29:41
  are pretty. Yeah.
• 29:41
  Pretty good. So that was something that I
• 29:44
  really kind of like was very tangible and very meaningful
• 29:48
  that I felt like, you know, left the mark in my psyche.
• 29:51
  But I think a lot of what I've also learned on the flip side is
• 29:54
  that, you know, to your earlier question about like, do you
• 29:57
  build on top of it? Do you do something radical?
• 29:59
  I think when I started off was I started off with like a building
• 30:04
  on top of it. So OK, there's this pre-existing
• 30:06
  structure and experience, our organizations and funding.
• 30:10
  And then, you know, there's this little little center I'm a part
• 30:13
  of and like, how do we kind of like bring that out?
• 30:16
  And there's definitely pockets and moments where it's like
• 30:18
  really nice and really, really heartwarming.
• 30:21
  But I think as I spent more time there and also as I kind of like
• 30:25
  talk to like my friends and colleagues, I'm like, there's,
• 30:27
  you know, so much more out of our control and so much more
• 30:30
  systemically and big and big. Why is that?
• 30:33
  Like, it's hard to kind of, you know, you you can't completely
• 30:38
  kind of, you know, I can't have this one, you know, in four
• 30:43
  years, I'm not going to undo or overwrite, you know, 400 years
• 30:48
  of history at the school. Like no way.
• 30:51
  So obviously that stuff from the past and also just the
• 30:53
  structures and the practices kind of like the leak through.
• 30:57
  So there's definitely, you know, been some tough conversations to
• 30:59
  be had. There was a big, you know,
• 31:01
  there's a big little division. I remember my first year where
• 31:04
  they had like, there was like a cultural appropriation party and
• 31:09
  there was just kind of this huge, like the violent campus
• 31:11
  about like, you know, you know, white students wearing people of
• 31:15
  color costumes, you know, like using their culture as a
• 31:18
  costume. And then that blew up.
• 31:20
  The way it blew up too, was kind of like, you know, crazy too.
• 31:23
  So I remember like, my first semester, I'll say, oh, wow.
• 31:26
  Like I'm starting at the hang of this college thing.
• 31:28
  I'm starting to find my sense of belonging.
• 31:29
  Then boom, this happened. And it kind of set the tone for,
• 31:32
  like, the next four years of, like, the vibe and like, you
• 31:35
  know, the tension, the racial tensions kind of bubbling
• 31:38
  underneath, so to speak. Wow, Well, I just want to say
• 31:44
  now I really want to try the LA Taco like that you make.
• 31:49
  I want to try it, man. OK, Yeah, I know when we meet up
• 31:55
  again in LA, I'm definitely going to ask for that.
• 31:57
  I'm going to request a couple of tacos.
• 32:00
  And and I wanted to comment about that because I find, you
• 32:03
  know, the that point about like sharing one's culture through
• 32:06
  food to be really important because, you know, everyone's
• 32:10
  got to eat. And even if you know, taste buds
• 32:12
  are different, I think undeniably the preparation that
• 32:15
  you did right, research, you know, trying to figure out the
• 32:19
  best marinade, just investing that time because you care about
• 32:24
  your culture and you care about what other people will will
• 32:28
  think of it, right, in terms of what their experience is like,
• 32:30
  just really trying to set them up for the most positive
• 32:33
  experience really I think touches people's heart.
• 32:36
  Like, even if they eat the Taco and they're like, it's not
• 32:39
  really for me, they still can say what Wow.
• 32:42
  Like, but I, I appreciate you for putting in this effort.
• 32:45
  And, and, and maybe they ask additional questions about it
• 32:48
  and maybe they share more about like, well, if, if there is not
• 32:52
  something that they like, right, Maybe it's too spicy, right?
• 32:55
  Just just making example. And then it's like, why?
• 32:58
  So what kind of food do you eat? Right?
• 33:00
  There's an explanation for all of these things in terms of what
• 33:03
  we're exposed to or not. But if you don't, if you don't
• 33:08
  bridge that divide through dialogue, right through some
• 33:11
  kind of conversation, you won't know.
• 33:13
  And actually that's kind of the theme that I was picking up with
• 33:16
  the activities out of the center with your own personal
• 33:20
  initiatives with these kinds of events.
• 33:23
  And also just like kind of spontaneous 1 to one, just kind
• 33:26
  of meetups and talking with different people and getting
• 33:28
  connected. Like, you know, just regular
• 33:31
  social mingling that you see at college campuses is that you
• 33:35
  need to just have dialogue and talk about it.
• 33:38
  And sometimes I can be really uncomfortable, like with the
• 33:41
  kind of racial, you know, blow up of the, you know,
• 33:44
  appropriation, cultural appropriation thing that yeah,
• 33:48
  it brings up a lot of questions and it gets people very
• 33:51
  defensive and sometimes it's seemingly insurmountable and yet
• 33:57
  still got to talk about it. Rights, that elephant in the
• 33:59
  room kind of thing. And and so, yeah, I just, you
• 34:02
  know, wanted to kind of identify that.
• 34:04
  And and then now kind of thinking about from that context
• 34:09
  in Boden, you you later went on and found yourself in another
• 34:14
  academic environment, Harvard. And now there's still the racial
• 34:20
  kind of component of like people from various different walks of
• 34:23
  life, minority groups, right, first Gen. as well, including,
• 34:26
  you know, your own background. But but now there's like a lot
• 34:29
  of international students. And so I'm wondering, like, that
• 34:33
  kind of added another dimension to it.
• 34:35
  And what was that like now interacting with people from
• 34:39
  maybe like, far away countries that you've never visited
• 34:42
  yourself? And was it, Yeah, of a similar
• 34:45
  kind of intention of, like, trying to create a new sense of
• 34:48
  belonging? How did you evolve in your own
• 34:51
  sense of identity, you know, having been, you know, born in
• 34:55
  China but then grew up in LA but then studied in on the East
• 35:00
  Coast? Like, yeah, it feels like this
• 35:02
  was like another big step in your evolution.
• 35:05
  Oh, yeah, yeah. I think the, the exposure to
• 35:09
  like, to like a very different, more international community
• 35:12
  actually start at boating because I, I remember at boating
• 35:15
  was where I met like a lot of Chinese nationals and, you know,
• 35:21
  kind of like, kind of like trying to connect and also like
• 35:24
  seeing them to, you know, like, hey, like, you know why?
• 35:26
  Yeah, she's done, boy. And you know, I'm saying like
• 35:27
  trying to speak my best Mandarin or, you know, they're from Hong
• 35:30
  Kong, you know, speak a little Cantonese and, you know,
• 35:34
  sometimes you laugh like, ha ha, ha.
• 35:35
  You know, like, OK. But what I think what was
• 35:37
  fascinating was like I, I, there was, there were moments where I
• 35:40
  looked at them like, yes, you know, we're both Chinese, but
• 35:43
  like our, our lived experiences are so different because.
• 35:47
  And I, and then when I went to Harvard, I was like, Oh, there's
• 35:49
  a lot of international, there's way more international people
• 35:52
  here. And, and I was trusting because
• 35:56
  the in the International Space that as to be able to go to US
• 36:00
  institution as a international student, you either have to
• 36:02
  have, you know, a really great scholarship or you come from a
• 36:06
  lot of money because you know, you're paying that out of state
• 36:08
  international tuition. So I think a lot of the folks,
• 36:12
  number of the folks were, were very wealthy as well.
• 36:15
  I think some of these Chinese and national students, I was
• 36:17
  kind of looking at them. I was like, on paper, you know,
• 36:19
  we're both Chinese and you know, we, we, we, there's a shared
• 36:22
  language and some cultural connections there as well.
• 36:25
  But I also saw how we're different because that's when I
• 36:27
  realized I was like, Dan, like I'm really from LA, you know,
• 36:30
  like, I mean, like, you know, do you hear Chinese national
• 36:33
  talking about tacos, you know, the love of tacos, like, like I
• 36:36
  do. So the, the connection there.
• 36:40
  So there were connections because like, it's also funny
• 36:42
  because so they, a lot of them are huge Laker fans and I'm
• 36:45
  like, Ah, yes, I am a Laker fan. So there's that it like that
• 36:48
  kind of global connection from a local perspective there too.
• 36:52
  So there are connections, but there are also kind of
• 36:55
  disconnections as well. And I think that the wealth in
• 36:57
  the class part was like a huge part of it.
• 36:59
  And I was kind of like, Oh, like, you know, we move about
• 37:02
  this space differently because of this, this money and this
• 37:05
  wealth there is like, you know, very different.
• 37:07
  And I, I remember kind of, you know, I remember like being
• 37:10
  invited to some, some events and some, some vacations.
• 37:13
  I'm like, you know, yeah, I'm, I'm not going to go to Greece
• 37:17
  during spring break because I can't afford that ticket and I'm
• 37:20
  not going to, I can't afford to spend all that money.
• 37:22
  But thank you for the inviting, you know, I'm saying.
• 37:24
  So it's just kind of seeing that and also understanding that
• 37:29
  there's a whole different world international spirit that I
• 37:33
  didn't was kind of like Privy to, but didn't necessarily
• 37:36
  engage with until I got to Harvard because Harvard truly is
• 37:39
  a very International Space. But met a lot of great people, a
• 37:42
  lot of fascinating stories and how people got there.
• 37:45
  And I think at the end of the day, what was really compelling
• 37:48
  to me was that like, you know, we're all really here just to do
• 37:51
  something bigger than ourselves, whether or not you come from a
• 37:55
  certain background or not. I think that's the beauty of
• 37:57
  like going to like the school of education is that like
• 37:59
  inherently you want to do something with the school or
• 38:03
  like with the next generation with like a bigger group too.
• 38:06
  So it's always very much you're, you're bonded by this shared
• 38:09
  common mission, so to speak. But yeah, folks are real
• 38:12
  different. And I, I'm different too.
• 38:14
  So I think that was kind of like acknowledging that kind of
• 38:17
  difference and then learning how to connect after that.
• 38:23
  No, I, I, that's, that's so fascinating.
• 38:25
  But you had this experience at Boden initially with meeting
• 38:28
  these Chinese nationals and, and kind of, you know, it sounds
• 38:33
  like this initial excitement of like, oh, like, I wonder how we
• 38:36
  can like find common ground. And perhaps maybe there was
• 38:40
  assumptions of like, of course, we'll like, you know, connect
• 38:43
  easier because, you know, I see you right.
• 38:45
  And terms of like, Oh, we, we look similar and like we speak
• 38:48
  same language. And yet discovering, Oh,
• 38:51
  there's, there's also a lot of differences.
• 38:54
  And then kind of understanding like how that, how that lands in
• 38:58
  terms of like how you want to move forward with it as just
• 39:02
  like a friendship. Because I also think college is
• 39:04
  really a great training ground for like how to, how to do
• 39:08
  friendship. And, and that, you know, it's
• 39:11
  not to say that like if their background is so different
• 39:14
  because of like wealth and status and where they came from
• 39:17
  that you can't be friends. But I also think that it's just,
• 39:22
  yeah, I just again, just raises a lot of interesting questions
• 39:25
  about that. But I, I think what you were
• 39:28
  articulating with like your time at Harvard and understanding
• 39:31
  that people, yeah, come from such different backgrounds, but
• 39:35
  being that they want to make some kind of change in the
• 39:37
  world, they want to contribute to education.
• 39:40
  They see the long term project of education for like, you know,
• 39:45
  you know, future generations is very important.
• 39:48
  That that sense of purpose, I think is really important.
• 39:52
  And I feel like ties into this broader theme of global
• 39:55
  citizenship that I always like to ask my guests what their
• 39:59
  thoughts are. Because again, it sounds like,
• 40:01
  you know, we kind of started from the local finding your way
• 40:04
  to a very international place like Harvard.
• 40:07
  Like what would you say that your experience interacting with
• 40:11
  these international students or just people in that community as
• 40:14
  like one that you felt like, wow, like these are global
• 40:17
  citizens and like is there something like from.
• 40:21
  I don't know, Huggsy, that they kind of expressly stated this is
• 40:26
  what we mean by a global citizen.
• 40:27
  Or was that something that you just kind of had to make sense
• 40:30
  of and articulate yourself through the interactions you had
• 40:33
  with the student body? Yeah, Yeah, I think it's I mean
• 40:39
  this this kind of goes deep until, you know, maybe
• 40:42
  linguistics a little linguistics a little bit because, you know,
• 40:45
  I think there was kind of like internally like me trying to
• 40:48
  figure out, you know, like global and citizen, global
• 40:51
  citizen, like what does that mean to me specifically?
• 40:53
  And that, you know, that's how I learn and like develop meaning
• 40:55
  and things. So I think I can't, I can't I
• 40:58
  come from a very immigrant heavy community background.
• 41:01
  So that was kind of like my perception and understanding of
• 41:04
  it. It's like, yes, we're all
• 41:05
  citizens of this country and we all come from a different place
• 41:08
  globally. So that was like, you know,
• 41:10
  maybe not the the the most, you know, accurate term for like
• 41:16
  what what the the more mainstream conversation was
• 41:18
  talking about at the school, but it was just how like how I
• 41:21
  conceptualized it because we all come from somewhere.
• 41:24
  But I think I remember my time at hugs, the first introduced to
• 41:27
  like the term third culture kid, and I was kind of like, Oh, wow,
• 41:31
  like this makes a lot of sense. And I think, you know, for those
• 41:35
  that are seeing third culture kid, from my understanding as
• 41:37
  like a local kid is, is someone who kind of like attends
• 41:44
  international schools in these different countries.
• 41:48
  And you know, they might not be the same ethnic background as
• 41:50
  the dominant ethnic group in a certain country.
• 41:53
  And they just kind of go to these different international
• 41:56
  schools and they travel abroad a lot and they have like exists in
• 42:00
  this, in this space. Usually some folks call it, you
• 42:03
  know, very expat kind of space where they kind of know each
• 42:06
  other from all these private schools, international boarding
• 42:08
  schools, or just kind of like, you know, activities, events,
• 42:11
  competitions in high schools that like bring them all
• 42:13
  together. So I think learning about that
• 42:15
  was really fascinating because I was like, how like I, cuz I was
• 42:18
  not part of this group, obviously, but I think in
• 42:22
  observing how also like, you know, in a way, like people from
• 42:25
  the other side of this kind of migration spectrum, how they
• 42:29
  navigate the world. I was like really fascinated
• 42:31
  because I feel like they were, they were leading a very
• 42:35
  different, but you know, it's still kind of similar journey as
• 42:40
  someone like me from very different background.
• 42:42
  And this is what I mean by that because, you know, I grew up in
• 42:45
  LA first year student. I went to school in the East
• 42:48
  Coast and then, you know, went to Hugsy and when I was at
• 42:55
  Boeing, the kind of joke that it's like, you know, Camp Bobo
• 42:58
  or like boring school Part 2. So that would, you know, me
• 43:01
  going from NSC LA to BOE was kind of like my first
• 43:03
  introduction to that private school boarding experience that
• 43:07
  a lot of these international students also experience, but
• 43:10
  from like, you know, from a high school side where they have
• 43:12
  already been kind of in this pipeline, so to speak.
• 43:16
  And then they're in these pockets where they see like each
• 43:20
  other, you know, in these different events and
• 43:23
  organizations. And I see that on my end too.
• 43:26
  So for example, there's an event during my undergraduate is
• 43:30
  called them IBG, which is like, you know, basically a conference
• 43:34
  for first Gen. folks to attend. Ivy League schools are also or
• 43:37
  the the smaller NESCA schools as well.
• 43:39
  And it's like for this community to find each other at this
• 43:41
  conference. And you know, I remember
• 43:43
  visiting different areas and the Northeast and like seeing some
• 43:47
  friends from high school, some some friends I know from college
• 43:50
  match LA who are attending these other, you know, East Coast
• 43:54
  school. So it's like kind of like a
• 43:56
  network, a social network of folks just finding each other
• 44:02
  through this shared mission and this shared journey really.
• 44:05
  And so when I talk to some of these folks with a third culture
• 44:10
  kid background, kind of like, oh wow.
• 44:11
  Like, you know, I see how like, you know, you know, I wasn't in
• 44:15
  Singapore going to boarding school and like, you know, going
• 44:18
  on these like, you know, trips in Europe or, or what not.
• 44:21
  But I feel like I understand this kind of like never truly
• 44:24
  belonging in like a a certain space and seeing like a dominant
• 44:28
  culture and also just finding your own low pocket of people
• 44:32
  that exist beyond just like, you know, that one place on campus
• 44:35
  and they also exist in these other events and organizations.
• 44:38
  So it was just fascinating. I think what also helped me
• 44:42
  understand that was this this idea of social and cultural
• 44:45
  capital. This became how like, you know,
• 44:48
  this is something I learned in sociology, pure Bordeaux huge,
• 44:54
  like a French sociologist who talked about this, basically how
• 44:58
  folks carry a certain kind of when they have social capital,
• 45:00
  they have certain connections that either, you know, bring
• 45:04
  more resources into their lives or more opportunities.
• 45:07
  And they kind of like develop this circle social network, so
• 45:12
  to speak. Whereas on the other side, you
• 45:13
  also have cultural capital, which is people from these
• 45:17
  certain pockets of society. They share this kind of behavior
• 45:21
  and understanding and references to to our culture and things
• 45:24
  where they kind of identify each other in that way.
• 45:27
  And strangely enough, I felt like, you know, as different as
• 45:30
  my social and cultural capital were from these their culture
• 45:33
  kids, there were also a lot of parallel parallelisms as well,
• 45:37
  like finding ways to help one another but from very different
• 45:41
  socio economic backgrounds. I really appreciate you kind of
• 45:46
  creating this parallel structure to like what you experienced
• 45:50
  going to bode in almost like as if that was a study abroad
• 45:53
  itself. And then he's like, you know,
• 45:56
  students, third culture students in high schools doing boarding
• 46:00
  school or finding themselves kind of posted up at different
• 46:02
  parts of the world that in a sense, you were learning how to
• 46:08
  navigate a very different environment and having to like
• 46:13
  almost like forced into finding your people, right?
• 46:17
  Like that. I think when you go to a new
• 46:18
  place, there's there's so much new that's kind of stimulating
• 46:21
  you that you're trying to kind of grasp for what is familiar to
• 46:25
  anchor yourself. Because I think, you know, we
• 46:27
  need, we need some kind of stability, right?
• 46:30
  We can't just be in freefall all the time, right?
• 46:33
  Because there's always that anxiety of like, when will I hit
• 46:36
  the ground? And and then that's not a good
• 46:39
  feeling. So, yeah, navigating and, but
• 46:42
  like, what comes with that is like this understanding that,
• 46:45
  you know, you got to put yourself out there, you got to
• 46:47
  talk to people that are different.
• 46:49
  Sometimes you'll quickly realize that your worldview is not
• 46:53
  shared by that other person. And then you negotiate it,
• 46:56
  right? You, you kind of back down, you
• 46:58
  lean forward. There's so many different
• 47:01
  things. But through that experience,
• 47:03
  what you're doing is like creating social and cultural
• 47:07
  capital, right? I think that those experiences
• 47:09
  are never are never wasted and it allows us to have a a deeper
• 47:13
  appreciation for how people form, right, their their
• 47:19
  identities and how we can get really curious about what people
• 47:24
  are are doing in their work. So that because that informs who
• 47:27
  they're still becoming, right? We're all kind of unfinished in
• 47:30
  that sense that we're we're we're life is lifing if we're
• 47:33
  figuring out what's the next step.
• 47:36
  But I think, you know, there's something about kind of really
• 47:39
  putting that at the forefront of like how you engage with others
• 47:41
  that people feel that and then and it can come across as a
• 47:44
  sense of like respect for like, oh wow, you know, like you
• 47:47
  really want to understand, right.
• 47:48
  You're not kind of creating this sense of like, oh, you're so
• 47:51
  othered an outsider that I just want to like, you know, like I
• 47:56
  don't not even get close or not engage in that deeper way
• 47:59
  because then I think that's where, like the respect comes
• 48:01
  into play. But it's clear that you were
• 48:03
  kind of, you know, experiencing that and then building those
• 48:06
  kind of like skill sets in a similar way.
• 48:09
  Because I think, at least for me, the global citizenship
• 48:13
  identity side of it is meant to be one that is like unfinished.
• 48:16
  It's meant to be expensive. It's meant to invite those kinds
• 48:20
  of dialogues with people that, yeah, maybe you don't quite see
• 48:23
  I die with, but that's OK because again, they're like, we
• 48:27
  don't know what's going on in on their end.
• 48:29
  So the only way is to like initiate and engage and have
• 48:33
  that that conversation, you know.
• 48:36
  Yeah, I totally agree. I think, you know, I, I like to
• 48:40
  think of myself as a very tedious person.
• 48:42
  You know, I love learning about people and things and I think
• 48:45
  sociology, it's a great way of kind of like channeling that
• 48:48
  energy. But yeah, I think the more you
• 48:51
  you meet people, the more and the more you learn about
• 48:53
  yourself and the more of yourself that you meet through
• 48:56
  other people and also through experiences, you just kind of
• 48:58
  like get a little bit more like empathy and understanding.
• 49:02
  I think like a huge part of of me is that like, you know,
• 49:05
  during my academic career was learning how to navigate that,
• 49:10
  you know, meeting people who come from similar backgrounds
• 49:13
  would have very different perspectives and takes on life.
• 49:16
  And then also meet people with very different backgrounds who
• 49:19
  actually, you know, share a lot of values and what not.
• 49:22
  So I think that was something that I had to kind of
• 49:24
  renegotiate with myself a lot during this journey.
• 49:28
  And I think also just, you know, being so far away from home,
• 49:31
  like trying to, I get to your point, like trying to hold on to
• 49:34
  like the pieces of me that I felt like, you know, I wanted to
• 49:37
  keep around because a huge question.
• 49:40
  I was kind of like, you know, like circulating in my mind, in
• 49:42
  the mind of my friends. It's kind of like, you know,
• 49:44
  without the community that like made you who you are, Like who
• 49:47
  are you really? When you're when you're a fish
• 49:50
  out of water, you're different kind of water, different kind of
• 49:52
  environment. Like how do you adapt?
• 49:53
  How do you navigate this new life?
• 49:55
  How do you, you know, maintain a sense of self while also
• 49:58
  understanding that there's things to be negotiated with
• 50:00
  this new place that you're in? So a lot of big questions on
• 50:03
  that and reminds me of like a funny memory I had with this one
• 50:08
  friend. She she's from she's from the
• 50:11
  Bronx in New York. Also first Gen. low income
• 50:14
  background. Remember like we were just kind
• 50:16
  of like passing each other in student union.
• 50:18
  And she's like Simon, like, I don't know why, but I feel I
• 50:21
  feel the need to like, you know, be extra ghetto when I'm here at
• 50:25
  this school because I feel like if I don't like tap into it,
• 50:28
  I'll like lose that, you know, if I'm, if I'm like not, not
• 50:32
  like training that muscle. So I don't know, it's
• 50:34
  interesting stuff and I was kind of like fascinating, like that
• 50:37
  is absolutely true, because I relate to now that you know, I I
• 50:41
  haven't seen backgrounds hers or like, you know, to term of
• 50:44
  ghetto, but I thought there was definitely parts of me.
• 50:46
  That's why I was hating on tacos so much as I was like using
• 50:49
  these ain't the real talk. These ain't the delicious ones I
• 50:51
  miss from home. There's a little spice missing
• 50:55
  or, you know, just kind of like understanding that a lot of the
• 50:59
  again, the subtle things I miss from home.
• 51:01
  Like I remember, you know, just like, I think music was a huge
• 51:04
  part of it. I, I, you know, I remember
• 51:07
  playing a lot of just kind of West Coast bangers in this
• 51:10
  space. And, you know, obviously my New
• 51:13
  York friends have their very strong opinions on hip hop and
• 51:17
  R&B and, and whatnot. And like they're artists And I'm
• 51:19
  just kind of like, you know, kind of having those contentious
• 51:23
  conversations, but also understand that like, OK, like
• 51:25
  we, we are all music lovers. We truly like appreciate also,
• 51:29
  you know, hip hop rap and also this kind of like history as
• 51:33
  well. So I think that also led to some
• 51:35
  great friendships and great conversations.
• 51:37
  Yeah. And I remember having like
• 51:38
  listening parties with friends when certain albums were
• 51:41
  released. I remember when the Kendrick
• 51:43
  DAMN album came out. That was kind of like a big time
• 51:46
  and just, you know, amount of hype and also just like
• 51:49
  conversations around that. I remember when Blonde by Frank
• 51:53
  Ocean came out. I think that was my sophomore
• 51:55
  year that that was just like, that was such like a Canon
• 52:01
  event. I guess I I don't know.
• 52:03
  I don't know about your relationship with Frank Ocean's
• 52:05
  mom, but that was just a huge moment of my life where I tapped
• 52:08
  into some kind of like certain emotions and, and, and feelings
• 52:11
  of yearning and, and what not. And also just like, also finding
• 52:14
  other like Frank Ocean fans and like the crowd and like, Oh yes,
• 52:18
  like these are my people. Like you guys.
• 52:21
  Yeah. And you guys understand.
• 52:22
  So I think, yeah. I think culture and also just
• 52:25
  like, you know, the arts, there's a great, great way to
• 52:28
  kind of connect with that part of you that you miss either from
• 52:31
  home or that you know, or that you could find in other people
• 52:34
  as well. So yeah.
• 52:37
  Totally, totally that. And it that what's kind of
• 52:41
  coming into my head, what you're describing with different
• 52:44
  musical tastes and bringing in your, your, your passion from
• 52:49
  like your hometown, wanting to share that.
• 52:51
  There's like, there's a sense that you can like dial in to
• 52:55
  that, like local culture and, and that helps, you know, ground
• 53:00
  you and makes you feel like, wow, this is, this is who I am.
• 53:03
  And and then someone else can do the same thing from a different
• 53:06
  kind of like vantage point or different artist, right.
• 53:10
  But you said, but you can always step back and just say, Hey, but
• 53:13
  we're like music lovers and like we, we can see things from like
• 53:17
  a broader perspective. And so I think that's also
• 53:19
  another kind of dimension to like the whole navigating these
• 53:22
  different cultures and, and growing through that experience
• 53:25
  is that, you know, you're, it's almost like now I'm getting a
• 53:28
  different, like, almost like a scientist looking at a
• 53:30
  microscope And that you're able to like dial in with like the
• 53:33
  different lenses. And then like even do like the
• 53:36
  finer tune of like kind of really focusing on like what's
• 53:39
  important, but then being able to like dial it back out and
• 53:42
  like have people understand that.
• 53:45
  Like if they're not quite getting it at this level, you
• 53:48
  can you can adjust it if even if they're not able to.
• 53:51
  And I think that, you know, again, that comes with a lot of
• 53:55
  trial and error, comes with practice, comes with knowing
• 53:58
  where you came from. I also think that there's an
• 54:00
  incredible generosity to being able to like, yeah, focus, focus
• 54:08
  that for another person so that, you know, they can understand,
• 54:13
  like just appreciate what exactly you're, you're able to
• 54:16
  look at, right? It's like kind of doing
• 54:18
  adjusting the dial for them right until it's just right.
• 54:23
  You know, maybe not always you have the time and patience to to
• 54:26
  do that, but I feel like there there's that, that that step and
• 54:29
  really introducing someone to kind of who you are and being
• 54:33
  genuine about it. But maybe, yeah, maybe it's not
• 54:36
  overcompensating with showing exactly the truest of this is
• 54:40
  what it is, but maybe some version of it.
• 54:43
  And again, it's it's a dialogue, it's a dance that we're trying
• 54:46
  to kind of make sense of each other's realities and have some
• 54:51
  sense of like common, like goodwill that wow, you know,
• 54:54
  we're we're we can appreciate this from from some level.
• 54:58
  And yeah, and I think that's a great place to kind of start
• 55:02
  kind of wrapping up this this conversation because, you know,
• 55:05
  I think there's so much more that we can continue to talk
• 55:08
  about. And I know you have some
• 55:10
  exciting trips coming up actually to China, right, to
• 55:14
  your hometown. And, and I, I feel like that's
• 55:17
  like such a full circle kind of moment for you before you embark
• 55:21
  on another exciting journey, which is your PhD studies at
• 55:25
  UCLA. But yeah, it's, it's, it's just
• 55:28
  really been such a joy to, to learn about your, your journey
• 55:32
  and, and understanding that, you know, through these lived
• 55:35
  experiences, it's helped to anchor you as an individual, as
• 55:40
  a friend, as a, as a son, right for your, your family.
• 55:44
  And also it undoubtedly informs the way with which you do your
• 55:49
  research. And I think that humanizing
• 55:52
  research and understanding genuinely the populations that
• 55:55
  it will serve and benefit is so important.
• 55:58
  So that it's not detached, right?
• 55:59
  And the sense that like, I think academia has kind of become more
• 56:03
  and more so sounds like in a way you're becoming that bridge in
• 56:09
  the work that you're doing and the communities that you, you
• 56:12
  represent and that you you connect with.
• 56:14
  So last question, I have book recommendation, movie
• 56:19
  recommendation, any recommendation that you'd like
• 56:22
  to share to the listeners? Well, I already mentioned 2
• 56:25
  movie centers and everything everyone wants.
• 56:27
  That's top for me, but you know. You gave spoilers to to sinners
• 56:31
  as well. Sorry if you haven't watched
• 56:34
  Where have you been? You know I.
• 56:36
  Know. Still winning.
• 56:37
  Michael B Jordan and Ryan Coogler?
• 56:39
  Come on now. Anyways, in terms of books, I've
• 56:42
  been reading Octavia E Butler's Parallel, the Seller.
• 56:47
  I'm actually reading Parable, the talents now.
• 56:48
  But I love, I love science fiction.
• 56:53
  I love good storytelling. So, and this is also very
• 56:57
  relevant because this book in the fictional world, it's set in
• 57:01
  2024 and 2025 in LA. Then there's a lot of kind of
• 57:06
  like, you know, themes of power, religion and kind of like, you
• 57:14
  know, fate and whatnot and change and and everything.
• 57:17
  So it's a great read. And I think if you want to
• 57:21
  understand what's going on in the world and also just kind of
• 57:24
  like, you know, also kind of zoom in a little bit on LA
• 57:27
  specifically in the in my history and the cultures here.
• 57:30
  I think parallel with sorry, is is a great start.
• 57:32
  So how do you recommend reading? That book awesome.
• 57:36
  I, I'm, I'm fascinated. I want to to read that book
• 57:38
  myself and thank you for that recommendation.
• 57:41
  And last but not least, I wanted to give you the last word.
• 57:44
  Any final thoughts or send offs so we wrap up this conversation?
• 57:48
  Yeah, yeah. Thank you for having me on.
• 57:50
  Thank you for for talking to me. Let me yap for the past hours
• 57:53
  though. And, you know, I also just want
• 57:56
  to say in terms of like the work that I do, I think to your point
• 58:00
  about academia, I think to me, my, my research and my journey
• 58:05
  is, is really a love letter to those that got me to where I am
• 58:08
  today. And, you know, hopefully that
• 58:10
  they, you know, whether it be friends, colleagues, professors,
• 58:14
  administrators or folks who just kind of like been in my life and
• 58:17
  just have been very supportive of my journey.
• 58:20
  I hope that they are able to look at my research and, you
• 58:23
  know, feel like, oh, wow. Like, you know, he's kind of
• 58:25
  bringing all these experiences and also these thoughts together
• 58:28
  that we shared. So yeah, I just want to shout
• 58:31
  out to everybody who's ever helped your boy.
• 58:34
  Thank you very much. Thank you, Scott, for bringing
• 58:37
  me on. Thank you for letting me do the
• 58:38
  shout out. And yeah, take care of y'all
• 58:41
  until next time.