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Leadership · Inside the Criminal Process

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: If you get pulled over for a traffic violation, do you have the right to be told why you were pulled over?
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: Can undercover officers commit crimes in the course of their work?
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: If someone is injured or killed because of a mistake someone makes, can that person that made the mistake be charged with a crime?
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to Inside the Criminal Process, a podcast where I discuss and explain the criminal justice system in America using real-life examples and true crime cases.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: My name is Scott, and I'm a 29-year veteran law enforcement officer and an attorney.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: I've worked as a patrol officer, a crime scene investigator, a field training officer, a detective, a parole officer, an investigator, a polygraph examiner, a crisis negotiator, and an administrator.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: I've also taught college-level criminal justice classes.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: I apologize that I haven't put out an episode recently.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have any excuse.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: I guess I'm just being lazy.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'll try to be better about consistently posting new episodes, but I can't make any promises.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: I've worked on this episode quite a bit.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: I've recorded it and deleted it.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um I didn't want this to become just a complaint session about my former boss.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: But the bottom line is that he was the worst supervisor I've ever had.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um and there's a ton of people that worked with me and for me that feel the same way.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I apologize in advance if this just seems like me complaining.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it's it's mostly gonna be about my former boss, who not only was a horrible supervisor and a horrible leader, um, he was just a not a good person, not a great person.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: So today I'm gonna talk about leadership, mostly in law enforcement context, but the ideas apply generally as well.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: So as always, the opinions expressed in this podcast are mine and mine alone.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: Uh people will definitely disagree with some of the things I say.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: I will tell you what I think the characteristics of a good leader that a good leader should have and how a good leader should act, in my opinion.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll give several examples of both good and and poor leadership actions that I've observed during my uh adult life.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: So first I wanted to mention something I didn't cover in the DUI episode.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: There's something in the law known as strict liability.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: Uh DUI is a strict liability offense in that it requires no criminal mental state.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: All the government has to prove for a conviction is that the defendant drove and was intoxicated.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: And the cop that arrests the person for DUI, pulls them over and arrests them, is typically the witness who can testify to both of those elements.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: Knowledge and intent are irrelevant in strict liability offenses, and the focus switches from the actor's mental state to the act itself.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: Selling alcohol to a minor, sexual activity with a minor, some traffic offenses like DUI, those are examples of strict liability offenses.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't really matter if a subject thinks a person is of legal age or if the person looks older.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: The fact that the person is a minor is enough for criminal liability in those cases.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: In civil law, you see strict liability in product liability.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: Manufacturers can be held liable for products that cause injury, even if all necessary precautions were taken to prevent the injury.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: So that's how it works in the civil context.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: So leadership in law enforcement, it's it's not defined by rank someone's command presence or the number of courses someone has completed.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: Good leadership usually is demonstrated through everyday decisions, accepting responsibility, communicating clearly, uh helping people to develop in their careers, exercising sound judgment, and basically just creating a climate in which officers can raise concerns without fear.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: In this episode, I want to examine what it requires, what I think is required for a good leader, and uh what can happen when people in authority fail to meet those requirements.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: I've had many jobs, many opportunities to observe leaders over 29 years in law enforcement, four years in the military, 12 years of work before that.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: I learned as much from poor supervisors as I did from the good ones.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not presenting myself as a perfect leader.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: People who've worked with me, for me, or above me could point to poor decisions I made during my career and mistakes that I made during my career.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: And believe me, I made a ton.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: That's one of the things with law enforcement.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: Probably many other careers are like this, um, but I think it's really evident in law enforcement.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: The older one gets, the better he or she can perform as like a street level patrol officer.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: But some of the physical and other requirements of the job make it less desirable as one ages.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'd be a much better cop right now, a street cop.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'm a better decision maker, and uh my experience and growth has taught me so much.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: But I'll tell you, working shifts, running after and fighting with criminals, spending hours processing arrestees and writing reports, sitting through boring in-service classes, that's the last thing I want to do at my age.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so it's it's uh kind of ironic that you just, as you age and get more skills, the less you want to do the job that you're really becoming good at.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: During law enforcement training seminar, I attended a deputy from a rural county explained the term pole turtle.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and it cracked me up.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: So he explained that in flood, flood-prone areas, like turtles can be left sitting on top of posts or poles as the water recedes.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: And people will look at the turtle and say, now how the hell did he get up there?
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so that deputy said his agency, they use that term to describe a person that's put in a position of authority that really doesn't have good judgment, character, or or isn't prepared for the the demands that the position uh requires.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: So the worst boss I've ever worked for is my clearest example of of a pole turtle, example of that problem.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: He had attended more leadership classes and seminars than almost anyone I've known, yet it didn't help him to be a good leader.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: He attended those training seminars and and presumably learned some really good concepts, but never tried to put those principles into practice.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I think this guy honestly felt that he was a great leader.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, he truly did not recognize.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: He had no self-awareness of how people felt about him, and I don't think he really cared, to be honest.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: He was all about himself and getting into higher paid positions without regard for people he hurt or stepped on as he promoted.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: The the really frustrating thing about it was that everyone except the people that he worked for knew how incompetent he was.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: So everybody that he was above, he he he reported directly to the head of the agency.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: And then he had uh 30 to 40 people that reported to him, like four directly reported to him, and then and then the others were indirect reports.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: And um everybody underneath him knew how completely just grossly incompetent he was, and the person that he reported to had no clue.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: He should have, um, and it was evident, but um, but that person was protecting him for whatever reason.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: So there was only one person in the entire organization that that supported him, the beneath him that supported him, and that person was a major um sycophant.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: Uh his admiration and respect was all just a show so that he could get promoted, and it worked for him.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I guess there's a lesson there that if if you don't have any dignity or uncompromised integrity in some agencies, you can promote.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: And as long as you're only looking at for yourself, uh being a pole turtle won't bother you.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: So, because like I said, I don't think my supervisor or the person that really supported him really cared what people thought about them.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: Those people are highly ineffective leaders uh and organizations, an entire organization can suffer because of that.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: One sign of a poor leader, they either they either lead through fear, uh, fear like I'll terminate you, I'll discipline you, I'll change your assignment, I'll I'll uh transfer you, or, or they just promote the sycophants underneath them.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: So those the the people that are willing to sacrifice their integrity and honor to just do what they're told without questioning even the poorest of decisions or actions, that that those are the people that get promoted.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: And bosses who love getting their asses kissed uh usually prefer yes men and women because it's they're much easier to supervise.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's easier when someone blindly does what he or she is told.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't take any leadership ability or skills to get an ass kisser to do what they're told because they're gonna do it regardless because they want to get ahead.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: The person about whom I'm speaking had no communication skills.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: He provided inconsistent direction, he had zero accountability, he was a micromanager, and he didn't respect decisions or input from people underneath him, even though almost everything he did resulted in failure.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: He was he was grossly incompetent, didn't know anything about the the operation.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um and he just he he just could not recognize how bad of a leader he was.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: I he honestly would tell people that he thought he he was the best person that had had that position in in many years.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: He constantly advanced and promoted people who would tell him how great he was and agree with everything he did and said um that can really destroy an organization.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the organization is still struggling to overcome the damage that this guy did for the three years that he was in charge.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: So under this boss, staff were reluctant to raise concerns.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, they feared retaliation, turnover increased, trust declined, and other divisions lost confidence in the unit.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and when people can't question a leader safely, errors become harder to detect and correct.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: So this guy was protected by the head of the organization, like I said, and we're all kind of stuck with him and his inability to lead or run the division competently.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: And and poor leadership is rarely only just an individual problem.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: It tests the organization's system for selection, feedback, oversight, accountability.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, when other leaders remain silent because they fear consequences, the morale, initiative, communication, cooperation, public service, all that stuff that you're trying to perform can all suffer.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: I could go on and on about how ignorant and incompetent this person was and give specific examples, but the podcast would last for eight hours.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm going to give you my opinion.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, here's what good good leadership requires.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: There's basically um eight main points in this next section.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh first of all, somebody has to lead by example.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: A leader can't demand preparation, responsiveness, and attention to detail while ignoring emails, failing to read reports, or delegating every dis difficult task.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: And this guy, he used to delegate everything.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: And it wasn't, he used to think that was that was him showing his leadership.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I delegate because I'm because I'm the boss, I'm a leader.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: But it was just everybody knew it was because he was too incompetent and he couldn't handle the the tasks that he was delegating to subordinates.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: Credibility, you know, it really begins when supervisors meet the same standards of discipline and professionalism they expect from everyone else.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: Uh there's several leaders in my last organization that can't do the things they require their subordinates to do.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: The subordinates know the bosses are incapable of doing those things.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: That creates a lack of respect for the bosses.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: And sadly, I don't think those supervisors even know how staff feel about them.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: Number two is act with integrity.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: Integrity matters most when the facts are uncomfortable.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: A leader's got to be able to tell the truth, document events accurately, follow lawful processes, and accept responsibility.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, once personnel believe a supervisor is going to shade the truth or avoid accountability, every instruction and decision from that supervisor becomes harder to trust.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: The person that I'm talking about, um, he was a compulsive liar.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody knew it.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: He lied under oath, it was documented.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, he lied when he was investigated for for workplace misconduct.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody knew that he was lying except, well, his boss knew that he was lying as well, because in in one of the administrative law judge decisions, it basically said that this person was a liar, and his boss did nothing about it.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um the boss was the head of the agency, his boss was the head of the agency.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: So, and he was never held accountable.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: He just enabled him to continue his reign of terror, and and that, you know, that prevented people from going and and reporting to others the the lack of integrity that this guy had because he was protected by the head of the organization.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: What are you supposed to do?
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's not there's nothing you can do when you know that his boss knows that he lied during this investigation and and and while he was under oath and did nothing about it.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: So you're kind of like I said, you're kind of stuck.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: You you can't really do anything.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: Third, a good leader should be able to communicate clearly and consistently.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: Communication is more than just issuing an order, it includes like explaining the purpose of a decision, coordinating through the proper chain of command, listening before you act, giving instructions people can understand and carry out.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: Unexplained or conflicting directions create confusion and resentment.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: Clear communication creates alignment.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: This this supervisor that I'm talking about used to go to his subordinates, subordinates, and tell them to do something or to not do something and not tell their supervisor, which was a horrible, horrible practice.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: He did it all the time.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: He used to call people in the evening when when they weren't at work, he was intoxicated.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: He would he would tell them things that that he shouldn't have been sharing with them, and then tell them, Don't tell your don't tell your supervisor that I talked to you.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um it was just a it was a horrible situation.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: Supervisors have to be good leaders have to make sound and and decisions, sound decisions and and and be able to explain why they did that.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know, law enforcement leaders, they they often have to act with incomplete information and under pressure.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: They'll not always get every decision right, but they should gather the facts, consider the consequences, and follow policy and law and and and be able to explain their reasoning.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, that this is one thing that that person never did.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: He uh he made decisions just on a whim and would would initiate those, put them into action without being able to explain why he was even doing it.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there was there were several times when he was changing something, uh, a procedure, and I I would say, Why are you why are you changing that?
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: What what day is that based on any data?
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: No, he didn't have any data.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: He he had decided that people were gonna start working shift works and on the weekends because he thought it would cut down on the the call outs for people being on call.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: I said, Well, where's the data?
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: What what let's look at when we're getting the calls and what we can do to to solve it.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: But he he was, you know, that was he didn't want to do that.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: He just thought making a decision to to force people to work shifts and weekends was was the way to handle it.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: And and he never had any ability to explain why he was making these decisions.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: Number five, good leaders should empower and develop other people.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um they should give capable people like clear authority, adequate resources, meaningful input, and room to exercise judgment.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: This person was such a micromanager, he did not allow people to uh to use their judgment.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I I saw I got this um out of a leadership uh booklet.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: Leaders who assume they're always the smartest person in the room suppress initiative and lose the experience of the people closest to the work.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: That's absolutely true.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: This this person thought that he was um because he had been there, he he was probably the most senior person in the organization at the time.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: And um, but everybody as as I said, everybody knew he was incompetent in his previous positions.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: Even when he was a a brand new investigator, people never went to him.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um he was never he was never seen as a competent investigator or somebody that could really do the work.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: And um so he never, you know, he always thought that he was he was the only one doing things right.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: And it just it boggled my mind that that he thought so highly of himself when he really had nothing to show for it.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: Number six, good leaders should remain adaptable and keep learning.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, promotion, and that that was part of this problem as well.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: Promotion doesn't eliminate the need for feedback, it increases it.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: Strong leaders they they go and they seek contrary views, they study their mistakes, they revise decisions, uh, and and you know, they're alert to the to the gaps in their knowledge.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: They they know what they don't know.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um and a leader who believes there's nothing left to learn becomes a risk to the organization and to the people carrying out the mission.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: And and this person, he had no idea.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: He did not know what he did not know.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I know that sounds cliche, um, but it's it's completely true because he had been there for so long, he just he assumed that he knew more than everybody else.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: Accountability and fairness, build trust.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: Uh that's number seven on this list here.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: The um you know, compliance produced through threats isn't the same as commitment earned through leadership.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: That's a great statement because um if you have to gain compliance through threats, that just that shows an a complete lack of leadership skills and ability.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: You know, trust grows when when supervisors can apply standards consistently, uh, when they can explain their decisions, when they when they stand up for employees to protect them from whatever, from retaliation, uh when they admit they can admit mistakes, correct misconduct fairly.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um again, this person was was uh never did any of these things.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: He he was um just a horrible, horrible leader.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm sorry, like I said, I apologize that this just sounds like a complaint session, but but I don't know that that there you would be able to show me a worse leadership than this, uh worse leader than this person.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: And um big one right here.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: The last one is accept responsibility for the ethical climate and morale.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: And if you've heard of Jocko Willink, he's a uh retired Navy SEAL and he owns a business now where he goes into um to firms, companies, organizations, and teaches their leaders how to lead or gives them gives them pointers and some guidance on what makes good leaders and what what helps organizations to be successful.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: And one of his biggest things is just like accepting responsibility for everything that's going on in your organization, the ethical climate, the morale.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, individuals are responsible for their own conduct and attitude, but leaders have to shape the conditions in which morale rises or falls.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: And the actual leader of my last organization told us in an executive uh meeting once hey, we're not responsible for the morale in this organization.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: That's not on the the leadership, the executive team.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: The the morale is not our responsibility.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: People are responsible for their own morale.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: They have to make sure that their attitude Is conducive to help them have high morale.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I just I thought that was so absurd.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I I think other leaders within the organization thought so as well.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: But everybody, you know, nobody was going to tell this guy that that that was foolish.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um because he was just he wasn't the type of person that that that you could do that with.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, what goes into the the climate and morale, you gotta look at workload, fairness, recognition, communication, staffing, trust, accountability.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: Those are all leadership concerns because supervisors influence every one of them.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: And and the the leadership at my last organization blamed everything that people complained about on the last group of leaders.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: They said, well, that was the last executive team.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: They they put that into place.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know, after about six months, people were so sick of hearing that because it's like, well, you guys are there now, so change it.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: And and you know, they they just kind of ignored it and let it let it die away, and everybody just kind of figured out they weren't going to do anything to fix anything.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: So and I guarantee you they still don't think that there's a problem, uh, even though it's been many years since the last group of of leaders, the last executive team left.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: So it boils down to in the military and law enforcement, rank, rank give gives a person authority.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um but but what gives us what gives a person credibility is is when they're they're uh showing all of these characteristics and just stepping up and and being good leaders.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: So it was you know there's basically um I think four questions is a way to uh these four issues are good tests for an organization.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: Basically, you ask do people understand the mission, what's expected of them?
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um can they raise concerns without retaliation?
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: Are decisions consistent, lawful, ethical, and and explainable?
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: And does the team become more capable and trustworthy under the person's leadership?
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: I think it boils down to those four questions.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: If you can say yes to all of those, um that's when that's when the leader has has credibility and and is probably has some decent skills and ability to lead people in those situations.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: So and I want to talk a little bit about promotional processes in in law enforcement.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: So like strong operational performance by an employee doesn't automatically produce a strong supervisor.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um leadership can't be separated from professional competence, judgment, communication, and credibility.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um agencies should be evaluating candidates for both their ability to perform the mission and their ability to lead people.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I think some organizations do a great job of this, others not so much.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: Uh neither qualification is enough by itself, although both areas can be developed and improved upon.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: Again, you know, no any number of leadership classes that's not going to determine how good a person is in a leadership position.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: If you can go to all the classes you want, but unless you're you're paying attention and these are they're relevant and successful theories and practices, it it doesn't really matter.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: The the training is not going to get you.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know, people look great on paper, and I think that's a big problem too with with uh leaders of organizations coming from outside organizations.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: They look great on paper.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: Their resume, their their CV, their current curriculum vitae looks great, and the city council or the mayor or the governor or whomever whomever is looking at those say, oh, this person will be great here, and they put them in, and then the the person flops.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: I I think that's not that's not very it's not uncommon for that to happen.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um in a typical law enforcement process, promotional process, you have like a written test, then you have oral boards or assessment boards, some more interviews and uh file reviews, and and you know, on on paper it seems fair, but it's rarely foolproof.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: Uh there's people that know what the questions are going to be on the test because they're their family members were commanders there.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, there's just there's many ways that stuff falls through the cracks, and these protections, uh these things that are designed to protect against this uh errors um don't work.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: So my thoughts on promotional process the best way to do it, the best way to get the right people in is unannounced selections.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: You go into roll call.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, who wants to promote?
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: You take the names down, you do immediate oral boards, give them scenarios that say, hey, you know, you're working, you're the only supervisor on shift one night, there's a shooting in this precinct, there's a fatal accident over here, there's a there's a uh DUI or major assault or something over here, and you're down by four staff, what are you gonna do?
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: And just hammer them with with with those scenarios.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: And they don't have to be like unrealistic scenarios, but you do want to have somebody who's able to think quickly and prioritize those and come up with the uh you know the things that they would do if they were in that situation.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um checking with peers to see what they think of the candidates, I think is a good idea.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: Look at honest reviews and evaluations, not just one that's you know done hastily because the the deadline was coming up, uh thorough personnel file review.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: Unfortunately, processes like those fail because of lawsuits, accusations of unfairness, litigation, etc.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: So that would never be a reality, uh making selections like that.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: But I think it would probably be more successful than most of the processes we have now.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: So it in closing, I don't I don't think that good leaders are just born that way, but I do feel some people are more natural at it than others.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's like what I said about uh trainees at a police department.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: Some people are natural at it, some people can never really get good at it, and some people, if they have self-awareness, integrity, humility, they can develop the skills they need to function as good leaders.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: You know, a lot of people begin with with advantages.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, they have confidence, self-awareness, empathy, humility, interpersonal skills, command presence.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, leadership also requires habits, though, that can be learned and practiced: listening, planning, deciding, explaining, giving feedback, resolving conflict, and accepting accountability.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: No leader is going to be perfect or universally popular.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: A better standard is whether the leader's decisions are lawful, ethical, informed, clearly communicated, open to review, consistent with the mission, etc.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I, you know, it's not difficult to evaluate somebody on those in those areas.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: And again, good leaders won't satisfy everybody, but they should make their people and their organization more capable, more trustworthy, better prepared, uh, etc.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the standard and that's the responsibility that comes with the badge and the rank.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um okay, on to the questions.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have the right to be told why an officer pulled you over?
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: There's no constitutional right to be advised why you got pulled over before you have to cooperate with the police during a traffic stop.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: Uh again, driving is a is a privilege, not a right.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: So when they ask for your driver's license, you you have to give it to them.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, policies may require an officer to immediately form inform a driver why they got pulled over.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: But I don't know how common that is.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't a requirement at the departments I worked for.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: I see it all the time on TikTok and YouTube, drivers refusing to give an officer his or her license, registration, insurance until the officer tells them why they were pulled over.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I have a right to know I have a right.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you do, and you'll learn eventually.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: But if you're gonna be a jerk about it, you're gonna learn by reading the ticket that you get, right?
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: So, and I've seen people that are willing to die on this hill, which is ridiculous.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: That the their window gets broken, they get yanked out of the car, and they go to they go to jail for for not cooperating.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: The cops are gonna tell you eventually why you got pulled over.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't have to be immediate.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: To fight over the fact that they they didn't tell you immediately why you were pulled over is just ignorant.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: And it's resulted in people being charged with like interference or failure to obey a lawful order or something of that nature.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: And it doesn't have to go that far.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_00: I just I just got pulled over um two days ago, no, three days ago, uh, by a state trooper, and uh, you know, he walked up, I gave him all my stuff.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: I had I already had it out.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: He could see both my hands, everything was cool.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: He said, Do you know why I pulled you over?
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: I said, Well, and he he said, You were going a little fast.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: You were going, I think I was doing 79 in a 70 mile an hour zone.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I said, Oh, okay.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_00: He goes, Is there a reason you're in a hurry?
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_00: I said, No, not really.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: Again, well, and here's what I talked about before too.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: I I usually go nine miles an hour over the speed limit.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's my that's usually my limit, but I still got pulled over for it.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: I gave him my stuff and he said, Okay, well, um, I'll get you, I'll give you a warning and get you out of here.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: Let me just check and make sure you're valid.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: Is this address still good?
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Yeah.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: So he just went back, checked me on the computer, made sure I didn't have any warrants, made sure my license was valid, came up and just just gave me a warning.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: Now, if I'd have been like, you you got to tell me why you pulled over why you pulled me over or or argued with him, he probably would have written me a ticket.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I was in a different state, so uh, you know, it probably would have been a mandatory appearance.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: I would have had to go up there, or I would have just paid the the fine so I wouldn't have to go to court.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um but it's just it's just not worth it.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: Just give them your stuff, take whatever ticket they're gonna give you or warning and move along.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, officers probably aren't as used to polite people just doing what they're doing what they're supposed to do anymore.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: So um if you do that, you might shock them and they may just give you a warning.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, judges don't like that either.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: They don't like to see the video um where you're uncooperative, argumentative, and disrespectful when dealing with cops.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: Uh states can enact reason first laws, but I don't think it's common.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know of any states that have that.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like the officer has to give you a reason before you're required to give them your driver's license, registration, proof of insurance.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: I've never seen that.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: Number two, can undercover officers commit crimes?
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: Nope.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: Uh they cannot commit crimes without consequences.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: You see it in the movies where undercover officers participate in assaults, murders, robberies.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's just Hollywood.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: So there's some guidelines where an officer can do things that aren't technically league legal, but I don't know of any cases where that's that that has happened.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um some guidelines require that that an officer gets approval of a higher authority, whether it's a supervisor or a court, but I don't know of any situations where that's happened.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um I don't know how the feds deal with the issue, but I'm sure they have a policy regarding committing crimes while you're undercover.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: They have policies that cover everything's everything.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: And obviously, if an undercover officer is in danger of being seriously assaulted or killed, he or she can do what they need to do to protect themselves.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: But again, I think that happens more in the movies than in real life.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_00: I think this comes up more as policy violations than legal issues.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: For example, if an officer has to drink at a bar while on duty to convince the suspect or the actors that he or she's not a cop, they'll likely do so, and that might violate policy, but it's not gonna create a huge issue.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: They're not gonna get arrested or charged or kicked off the the squad because of it.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I think most undercover officers, they're gonna make something up like they're allergic to alcohol or they're recovering alcoholic or something like that.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: Bottom line, though, is that undercover officers don't have immunity from criminal prosecution for crimes they commit while they're undercover.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: Number three, if someone is injured or killed because of a mistake someone makes, can that person, the person that made the mistake, be charged with the crime?
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_00: So that depends on what level of culpability that that person had.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um if you acted negligently or recklessly, you may be charged criminally.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: For example, if if you operate a vehicle in a reckless manner, someone gets hurt or killed, you you could very well be charged with vehicular assault or vehicular homicide.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: Usually, though, crimes require intent or knowledge of illegality.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: Most situations regarding negligence are dealt with civilly as a tort or a civil wrong.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: And in those cases, you would have to prove in court, usually by a preponderance of the evidence, that the person owed you a duty, that they breached the duty, that the breach caused you an injury, and then there were measurable damages.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: So those are the three, those are the three requirements of an of a negligence suit.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_00: If you're going to sue somebody civilly for negligence, you have to prove duty breach caused damages.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: They there was a duty that they owed to you.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_00: They breached that duty that caused you injury, and there were measurable damages.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: So you you you were damaged in some way.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_00: That's it for this uh episode.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um not sure what I'm gonna cover in the next episode.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_00: I'll have to figure that out.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: I thought I wrote it down here, but I I must not have.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_00: So as always, thanks for listening and take care.