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The Power of Communication and Human Connection · Speaking of Meaning

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SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Speaking of Meaning,
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SPEAKER_01: the podcast that helps you become a stronger communicator,
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SPEAKER_01: build deeper relationships,
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SPEAKER_01: and create impact that matters.
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I'm your host,
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Ibrahim,
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and I am a professional speaker,
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soccer referee,
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and leader.
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SPEAKER_01: I love helping other people and I also love to learn new things.
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SPEAKER_01: This podcast is about better communication,
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SPEAKER_01: greater impact at work,
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SPEAKER_01: in your home and in the world out there.
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SPEAKER_01: Let's dive in.
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SPEAKER_01: Enjoy the show.
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SPEAKER_01: Welcome back to Speaking of Meaning.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Ibrahim, and today I'm joined by Daniel Nordstrom.
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He's a keynote speaker for Gapminder,
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and he has his own company called Talking Bridge.
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SPEAKER_01: Daniel, welcome to the show.
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SPEAKER_00: Thank you very much.
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And thank you for creating the space to have these kinds of
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conversations.
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SPEAKER_01: It's good to have you here.
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You have a lot of things to say today,
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and I'm looking forward to this conversation.
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SPEAKER_01: Me too.
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SPEAKER_01: But before we dive deeper, can you tell us about what it is that you do?
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SPEAKER_00: Yes.
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SPEAKER_00: And every time I get that question,
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SPEAKER_00: I would love to have sort of a simple title and sort of,
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SPEAKER_00: oh,
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SPEAKER_00: yes,
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SPEAKER_00: I do this to be sort of easily to fit into that box.
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SPEAKER_00: But I have realized that I'm hard to pin down.
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SPEAKER_00: Running your own company,
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you realize that you have to be good at many things and you can
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explore many
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SPEAKER_00: different things.
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But I've realized that everything I do is linked to the fact
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that I believe that
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the world would be a better place if we all just got a little
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bit better at
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SPEAKER_00: communicating with each other.
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SPEAKER_00: So that has been the main focus on regardless of what I do.
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So if I'm teaching a class,
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then the communication aspect of that is,
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of course,
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central.
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SPEAKER_00: If I'm giving a presentation, again, communication.
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If I am a business advisor and help companies to find ways to
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present their ideas,
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SPEAKER_00: then again,
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SPEAKER_00: it's communication.
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SPEAKER_00: So that's linked to everything I do in many, many ways.
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And that's why I named my company The Talking Bridge to build
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bridges between
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SPEAKER_00: people and organizations and ideas.
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SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
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SPEAKER_01: And you're also a keynote speaker for Gapminder.
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SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
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Gapminder is a foundation founded almost 20 years ago,
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I think,
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by the famous Hans Rosling.
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You might have seen his TED Talks with the best statistics you
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have ever seen and
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he's standing there with the bubble graphs and show the
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progress in the world and
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SPEAKER_00: show how the world has changed Gapminder.
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SPEAKER_00: But our minds and ideas and perceptions and prejudice of it happened.
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So Gapminder,
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he founded it together with his son,
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Ola Rosling,
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and Ola's wife,
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Anna.
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SPEAKER_00: Their work of fighting global misconceptions,
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SPEAKER_00: finding these questions,
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SPEAKER_00: they're asking a lot of questions to find what areas are many of us
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SPEAKER_00: mistaken.
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Where do our perception doesn't match the global statistics
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that is gathered by the
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SPEAKER_00: UN and other organizations?
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So he uses this eye-opening perspective to get us to see the
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world a little bit differently.
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SPEAKER_00: There are still terrible things in the world.
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The world is awful,
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but the world is also better and the world can be much better.
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SPEAKER_00: And all of these things are true at the same time.
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SPEAKER_00: And we are very, I think we are missing those perspectives quite often.
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SPEAKER_00: We often only look for one answer and then we think we are done.
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We need to be a little bit more patient and look at the world
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and ourselves and
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different connections both again and again to discover the
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deeper meaning of it and
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SPEAKER_00: the deeper perspective and to reveal more knowledge and more insights.
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SPEAKER_01: So sometimes it's not enough with simple solutions to complex problems.
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SPEAKER_01: And I guess that's a challenge for any communicator.
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SPEAKER_01: You told me one time,
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SPEAKER_01: Ibrahim,
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SPEAKER_01: a deeper understanding about people,
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SPEAKER_01: the world,
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SPEAKER_01: nature can change the world.
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Why do you think we struggle with depth these days when we are
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communicating,
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SPEAKER_01: when we are getting to know people or at work?
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SPEAKER_00: It's a very good question.
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SPEAKER_00: And I think we struggle with it because we, I mean, today we value speed.
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SPEAKER_00: And to some extent, we are taught it already in school.
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SPEAKER_00: We do the math problem.
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We check the answer at the back of the book and we realize,
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oh,
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yeah,
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we got it right.
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And then we don't redo that calculation and see if there are
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another answer.
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SPEAKER_00: Now in math it rarely is,
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but in many other areas of life there is this other alternative
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explanation.
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SPEAKER_00: There might be another answer.
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There might be another reason behind why someone is upset or
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why someone is sad.
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SPEAKER_00: And if we don't
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look deeper to figure that out then we just assume that things
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are the same and we
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yeah we we we struggle to see the bigger picture and i think we
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are too impatient
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and i mean of course there is some form of evolutionary aspect
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of it as well i mean
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we are lazy we think that we have figured something out then
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why why look again
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SPEAKER_00: So that's one, of course, aspect.
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And then we have the society at large where everything is going
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as fast as possible.
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And to be able to stay and just look again,
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I think it's a skill that is very valuable today.
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SPEAKER_01: So it's really about self-awareness, isn't it?
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SPEAKER_01: To have...
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SPEAKER_01: to have the ability to slow down and seek a deeper understanding,
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SPEAKER_01: not only in our conversations,
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SPEAKER_01: but also in our decisions and when we reflect.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
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SPEAKER_00: I would say a deeper self-awareness,
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but also the awareness that things that look the same can't be
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very different.
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SPEAKER_00: And I can show you an example here.
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SPEAKER_00: Go ahead.
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SPEAKER_00: I just brought some props.
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SPEAKER_00: Here I have two different things.
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SPEAKER_00: And at a first glance, these look exactly the same.
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SPEAKER_00: And you might assume that then these are exactly the same.
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But if I start turning them around and sort of show a deeper
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meaning or when you
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SPEAKER_00: start to look a little bit behind the scene,
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SPEAKER_00: then you realize that these are different.
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SPEAKER_01: Okay, so for our listeners who are not watching, what are you showing?
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SPEAKER_00: Good point, good point.
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SPEAKER_00: I can do it again, but with another thing.
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I can hold up here and what you will see is two yellow bricks,
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two yellow rectangles.
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SPEAKER_00: Right now I'm holding up two yellow rectangles.
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SPEAKER_00: And from this perspective, they look identical.
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And I can turn them 90 degrees and then sort of show that,
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oh,
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these ones are square.
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SPEAKER_00: So they look like they are solid blocks.
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SPEAKER_00: But that would be sort of then assume that these two,
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SPEAKER_00: just because they look the same,
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SPEAKER_00: are the same.
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SPEAKER_00: So then we need to look at it again from another perspective.
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And suddenly we can see that one of them is hollow or has been
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carved out.
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So it looks more like a bridge while the other one is still a
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solid rectangle.
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SPEAKER_00: And the one I had before was a triangle instead.
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SPEAKER_00: Right.
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SPEAKER_00: And these perspectives,
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SPEAKER_00: this is just one simple way of illustrating it,
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SPEAKER_00: that things might look identical.
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SPEAKER_00: Looking again can then reveal a deeper meaning, a deeper understanding.
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SPEAKER_00: And this is sort of true when it comes to prejudice and stereotypes,
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SPEAKER_00: of course,
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SPEAKER_00: but then also,
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SPEAKER_00: I mean,
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SPEAKER_00: business decisions.
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SPEAKER_00: Oh, we have been in this situation before.
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SPEAKER_00: Are you sure?
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SPEAKER_00: Or why?
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SPEAKER_00: Have something changed or do we need to look at this again?
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So here it's vital to slow down and to say,
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no,
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no,
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no,
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wait,
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let us understand this better.
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SPEAKER_01: Let us ask the right questions.
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SPEAKER_01: But to me,
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SPEAKER_01: this also raises a thought,
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SPEAKER_01: and that thought is you can't be afraid,
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you can't be stressed out if you want to reflect and understand
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something on a
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SPEAKER_01: deeper level.
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SPEAKER_00: No, it's really hard to be afraid.
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SPEAKER_00: You need to be willing to explore,
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SPEAKER_00: to be curious,
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SPEAKER_00: and also to figure out when it's time to move on.
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SPEAKER_00: I mean, I can take the example with the brick.
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SPEAKER_00: Again, are the corners exactly 90 degrees in every aspect of it?
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SPEAKER_00: And you can zoom in and look at different details, but...
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SPEAKER_00: That also means,
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SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't say slowing down too much,
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SPEAKER_00: but that still,
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SPEAKER_00: that suddenly we move into an area of overanalysis,
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SPEAKER_00: of wallowing,
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SPEAKER_00: of looking too deep.
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SPEAKER_00: So there is also this balance of knowing not only to slow down,
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SPEAKER_00: to see more,
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SPEAKER_00: but also to realize that I'm done.
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SPEAKER_00: And then you might sort of go back to it later on if you want to,
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SPEAKER_00: but feel sort of,
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SPEAKER_00: especially when it comes to business and stuff like that,
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SPEAKER_00: to realize that now we need to make a decision.
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SPEAKER_00: We need to try something out.
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SPEAKER_00: We need to test it.
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We cannot be stuck in an analyzing mindset,
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if that is the right word to use.
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SPEAKER_00: But still,
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SPEAKER_00: you cannot then be,
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SPEAKER_00: as you said,
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you can't be afraid to look at it again and to be open to learn
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new stuff.
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SPEAKER_01: Okay.
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SPEAKER_01: So what I hear you say,
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SPEAKER_01: Daniel,
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SPEAKER_01: is you have to be able to slow down,
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SPEAKER_01: take a deeper look,
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SPEAKER_01: but at the same time,
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SPEAKER_01: don't lose the bigger picture,
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SPEAKER_01: the purpose.
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SPEAKER_01: Yes.
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SPEAKER_00: Being able to zoom in on detail and then zoom out again and figure out,
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SPEAKER_00: all right,
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SPEAKER_00: what does all this mean?
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SPEAKER_01: So stay track on your purpose.
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SPEAKER_01: Don't lose sight of your purpose or the bigger picture.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: All right, great.
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SPEAKER_01: This is very interesting.
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SPEAKER_01: So you also mentioned one time that you talked about interconnectedness,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: nature,
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SPEAKER_01: people,
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SPEAKER_01: meaning.
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SPEAKER_01: You mentioned one time that understanding nature,
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SPEAKER_01: understanding nature's interconnectedness changes how we see the world.
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SPEAKER_01: I find that very fascinating that you include nature.
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SPEAKER_01: And so how did you arrive at this perspective?
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SPEAKER_00: I would say that that is something that evolved over time.
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SPEAKER_00: At least it did in me.
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SPEAKER_00: And it came,
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SPEAKER_00: of course,
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SPEAKER_00: I mean,
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SPEAKER_00: studying physics,
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studying science and being curious to understand the world
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we're living in and to
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SPEAKER_00: understand the universe.
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I mean,
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when you learn that the atoms in your body were once in a dying
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star,
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you start to see connections there,
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connections between you and the universe.
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SPEAKER_00: And I know how that sounds.
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SPEAKER_00: But I mean, it's still also, that is true for everything on this planet.
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SPEAKER_00: We are stardust or nuclear waste,
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SPEAKER_00: if you want to use that term,
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SPEAKER_00: depending on sort of your half full,
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SPEAKER_00: half empty glass kind of person.
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SPEAKER_00: But still, the more you learn about
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SPEAKER_00: the planet we are living on, the harder it is, I find, to be angry.
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SPEAKER_00: It's harder to judge people.
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SPEAKER_00: It's harder to... I mean, you can zoom in and think that one...
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problems you have in your everyday life might be oh i'm losing
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my mind over this
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whatever this might be it's just the some problems with the
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computer or the car
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isn't working or whatever it might be again zoom out and i
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think the famous picture
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taking from voyager is just sort of the tiny the tiny blue dot
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where everything is
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SPEAKER_00: and in the grand scheme of things
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SPEAKER_00: This doesn't matter.
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So the more you see the level of connections and how everything
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has evolved.
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I mean,
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the fact that we are alive and sitting here having this
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conversation.
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SPEAKER_00: I mean,
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SPEAKER_00: when you start to think about that and looking into that,
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SPEAKER_00: it's hard not to be affected by it.
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SPEAKER_00: And of course,
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SPEAKER_00: it will have an impact in how you see yourself,
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SPEAKER_00: how you see others and how you see the world.
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SPEAKER_01: Do you like to be out in nature and go for a walk or exercise as well?
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SPEAKER_01: Go for a walk?
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SPEAKER_00: Yes.
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SPEAKER_00: Sadly, not exercising as much as I wanted to.
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But yeah,
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being out,
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nature is a very good healer and a very good play to just be
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yourself.
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SPEAKER_00: And it's very easy to
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forget and be not as self-critical what I was looking for it's
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I mean not judging
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yourself too heartily and just seeing the beauty in the poetic
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thing in nature I
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SPEAKER_00: know how this sounds but still sort of I love being out in in nature
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean the same here.
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I find it very difficult to be angry,
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depressed when I'm taking a walk in nature.
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And so,
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for instance,
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the idea behind this podcast,
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I talked a lot with my son.
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SPEAKER_01: He inspired me a lot.
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And also when I walk in nature,
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I think about,
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I'm going to think about this conversation.
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SPEAKER_01: I think about upcoming conversations, questions to ask, topics.
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SPEAKER_01: I was even brainstorming ideas for the name for this podcast.
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SPEAKER_01: And so for me, nature is very important.
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And I agree with you that we're all connected in one shape or
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form or way.
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SPEAKER_01: The interesting thing is that you bring it also into communication,
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SPEAKER_01: which I find it very fascinating.
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SPEAKER_00: The things we talk about here,
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SPEAKER_00: sort of being out in nature,
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SPEAKER_00: being able to heal and being able to enjoy it,
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SPEAKER_00: being able to be creative and all of that.
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SPEAKER_00: I mean, there is some form of communication going on, not with words.
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SPEAKER_00: And I'm not talking about the woo-woo energy or something like that.
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SPEAKER_00: I mean, we're talking here about the fact that there is something...
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influencing how you think and how you slow down and of course
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there is the I mean
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the biology and everything in it and I that sort of level of
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communication I think
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happens all the time we communicate a lot even if we don't
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speak so the emotion
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SPEAKER_00: that we have when we are out in nature,
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the emotions when we look at distant galaxies and we might have
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the sensation that
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SPEAKER_00: we are looking at ourselves in the mirror.
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SPEAKER_00: All of these things are a form of,
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SPEAKER_00: at least to me,
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SPEAKER_00: communication,
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SPEAKER_00: that we get some form of information,
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SPEAKER_00: we get another image,
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SPEAKER_00: we take something in that we can process and then put out into the world.
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SPEAKER_01: Is this why you believe that when you see how everything is connected,
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SPEAKER_01: it changes you as a human being?
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think so.
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SPEAKER_00: It's,
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SPEAKER_00: again,
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SPEAKER_00: the ability to listen,
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SPEAKER_00: to be present,
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SPEAKER_00: to be curious,
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SPEAKER_00: to be open,
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SPEAKER_00: to be able to sit in nature and to see that you are a part of it.
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SPEAKER_01: Hmm.
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SPEAKER_01: So fully embracing
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SPEAKER_01: I guess, being present, presence and awareness.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: Because you can be in nature,
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SPEAKER_01: you can be in a conversation,
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SPEAKER_01: and I would like to understand you,
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SPEAKER_01: but if I'm not aware of what I'm communicating,
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SPEAKER_01: how I'm communicating,
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SPEAKER_01: and the fact that I'm actively listening or not,
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SPEAKER_01: in combination with if I'm not present here and now listening to you,
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then I'm not going to be able to understand you on a deeper
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level and connect with you as well.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: And I will also,
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SPEAKER_00: again,
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SPEAKER_00: would like to point out,
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SPEAKER_00: if we take these bricks or blocks again,
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SPEAKER_00: if we just listen to the word understand,
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SPEAKER_00: there is something under where you stand.
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SPEAKER_00: And in order to look deeper,
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SPEAKER_00: you have to look under what sort of foundation,
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SPEAKER_00: where do someone stand?
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SPEAKER_00: I mean, I can understand your foundation.
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SPEAKER_00: stories about nature.
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SPEAKER_00: I can understand why you started this podcast,
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SPEAKER_00: partly because I can look deeper and see where you stand.
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SPEAKER_00: And also because I can recognize those aspects in myself,
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SPEAKER_00: because I enjoy also,
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SPEAKER_00: I mean,
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SPEAKER_00: communication and nature.
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SPEAKER_00: And so we can share a form of the same understanding.
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SPEAKER_00: We have the same platform that we can stand upon.
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SPEAKER_01: Can I also look deeper within myself and my own platform?
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SPEAKER_01: Because I guess it can also be scary.
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SPEAKER_01: Oh, definitely.
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SPEAKER_01: Because perhaps I think I am in one way,
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SPEAKER_01: shape,
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SPEAKER_01: or form,
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SPEAKER_01: and perhaps I believe I'm a certain leader with certain qualities,
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and then all of a sudden I have to look in the mirror and look
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beneath myself and
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SPEAKER_01: dig deeper,
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SPEAKER_01: and maybe I won't like what I find.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
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SPEAKER_00: but then again,
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SPEAKER_00: would you rather see that image or would you rather...
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SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't say living in a lie because that's too harsh of a word,
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SPEAKER_00: but sort of...
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SPEAKER_00: There are probably things inside all of us that we haven't explored yet.
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And when you ask me sort of,
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oh,
19:59
tell me about yourself,
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I present one side of it,
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of course.
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SPEAKER_00: And we all know that there is a lot more to a person than just that short
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introduction or that filter on Instagram or profile picture on
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the stories on
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SPEAKER_00: LinkedIn or whatever it might be.
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SPEAKER_00: We know that there is more to it.
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SPEAKER_00: And then, of course, I know that I have more layers and I am...
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SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm discovering things about myself because I grow up.
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SPEAKER_00: I move through time.
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SPEAKER_00: And when I move through time,
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SPEAKER_00: I suddenly see the same thing from a different perspective,
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SPEAKER_00: which might reveal other stuff.
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SPEAKER_00: Suddenly you might learn that, oh, I shouldn't have.
20:45
SPEAKER_00: Why did I say that 10 years ago?
20:48
SPEAKER_00: What was I thinking?
20:52
that part in you has probably been there all the time and then
20:56
suddenly now you are
20:57
SPEAKER_00: aware of it and then you can start to change it.
21:00
SPEAKER_01: This is a very good point.
21:02
I think it's because you have the courage to look within
21:06
because sometimes if
21:08
SPEAKER_01: you're not ready for it,
21:10
SPEAKER_01: then maybe it's scary to look within because you're afraid of the answer.
21:17
SPEAKER_01: If you are afraid of the answer,
21:21
SPEAKER_00: then you might already have a hint of what it is.
21:26
SPEAKER_00: True.
21:27
SPEAKER_00: Because if you don't know the answer,
21:31
SPEAKER_00: then you're curious.
21:33
SPEAKER_00: At least from my point of view.
21:35
SPEAKER_00: If I'm afraid of looking into something,
21:37
that means that it's probably something that I definitely need
21:41
to work on.
21:43
SPEAKER_00: So don't run away from it.
21:45
I have been running away from peers and they have a tendency to
21:50
sort of catch up
21:52
SPEAKER_00: with you later on.
21:53
SPEAKER_01: They don't go away.
21:54
SPEAKER_01: They don't.
21:56
SPEAKER_01: So have the curiosity, but also the courage.
21:59
SPEAKER_01: To look deeper.
22:01
SPEAKER_01: Let's say a leader is listening right now or any professional.
22:06
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
22:07
SPEAKER_01: how can understanding the bigger picture,
22:11
SPEAKER_01: nature,
22:12
SPEAKER_01: the systems,
22:14
SPEAKER_01: humanity,
22:16
SPEAKER_01: make us better leaders or better professionals?
22:24
SPEAKER_00: That wasn't a small question.
22:25
SPEAKER_00: That was a big one.
22:27
SPEAKER_00: That was a big one.
22:29
SPEAKER_00: I would say that we can break this down.
22:33
SPEAKER_00: We have to look at it, of course, from many perspectives.
22:36
SPEAKER_00: The world we're living in is changing dramatically in many, many ways.
22:43
If you are playing a board game and you can be extremely good
22:47
at Monopoly,
22:49
I don't know,
22:51
But if we suddenly change the board and instead we have a chess
22:58
board or another
22:59
SPEAKER_00: board game,
23:01
SPEAKER_00: it doesn't matter how good you are in the previous strategy.
23:05
You need to develop something new in order to be able to play
23:09
on this new setup.
23:11
SPEAKER_00: So when the world is changing...
23:15
The poetic thing,
23:16
of course,
23:17
is that change is the only constant and all of that.
23:20
SPEAKER_00: We have all these different clichés, as you are well aware of.
23:26
SPEAKER_00: And when the world is changing,
23:28
SPEAKER_00: if you have a deeper understanding of it,
23:31
SPEAKER_00: it might be easier to actually,
23:34
SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't say predict it,
23:36
SPEAKER_00: but to see the pattern.
23:40
SPEAKER_00: And if you see the patterns, you will become more adaptive.
23:45
SPEAKER_00: to the changing environment.
23:49
SPEAKER_00: So recognizing the patterns in the world
23:54
SPEAKER_00: understanding your own capabilities and your own place in that world,
23:59
I would say that that will make you a better professional to be
24:03
able to do your
24:04
SPEAKER_00: work,
24:04
SPEAKER_00: to find meaning,
24:06
to have a greater impact and to be able to steer your company
24:11
or organization and
24:13
SPEAKER_00: to reinvent things.
24:16
SPEAKER_00: either your entire company or the sector that you're working in.
24:21
The main point I think that I want to get at is that when you
24:27
can start to see the pattern
24:30
SPEAKER_00: You're not able to predict them,
24:32
but you might be able to understand them and you might be
24:34
better prepared for when
24:37
SPEAKER_00: they actually happen.
24:38
SPEAKER_00: You might be better suited to be able to deal with them.
24:43
It's a way of adapting to a world that is changing faster than
24:47
ever before.
24:48
SPEAKER_01: All right.
24:50
SPEAKER_01: So Daniel, you've talked about seeing patterns and slowing down.
24:55
SPEAKER_01: And I guess my question is,
24:57
what helps us slow down in order to discover the things we have
25:04
in common with
25:05
SPEAKER_01: other people?
25:09
I would say one that I'm practicing myself is to,
25:13
let's say,
25:14
get rid of this.
25:15
SPEAKER_00: Not get rid of, but not picking up all the time.
25:20
SPEAKER_00: The phone.
25:20
SPEAKER_00: The phone, exactly.
25:22
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for emphasizing for the one listening.
25:25
When you're waiting for the bus or waiting on the train,
25:29
don't pick it up.
25:31
SPEAKER_00: Just look around you.
25:33
Look at the people,
25:34
look at the clouds,
25:36
look at the birds,
25:37
look at the trees.
25:38
Start to,
25:40
just for a few moments,
25:42
take a couple of deep breaths and look around you.
25:47
SPEAKER_00: That starts to add up, I would say.
25:52
SPEAKER_00: The ability to,
25:53
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
25:54
it starts to slow down because you start to notice things you
25:58
haven't noticed
25:59
SPEAKER_00: before.
26:01
SPEAKER_00: Or you might find similar things.
26:03
SPEAKER_00: You might find if you find that you are commuting at the same time,
26:09
SPEAKER_00: to and from work,
26:10
SPEAKER_00: you might find similar people that you recognize.
26:15
SPEAKER_00: And depending on how brave you are,
26:17
SPEAKER_00: depending on the situation,
26:19
SPEAKER_00: you might want to start a conversation.
26:21
But yeah,
26:22
again,
26:22
that depends on the situation and who you are as a person.
26:25
SPEAKER_00: But slowing down and start noticing the patterns.
26:30
SPEAKER_00: The key is in the word noticing.
26:32
SPEAKER_00: And if you have your phone in front of you all the time,
26:36
SPEAKER_00: then you don't notice the things that go on around you.
26:43
SPEAKER_01: So notice, pay attention.
26:48
SPEAKER_01: It seems that we often go back to being present, presence.
26:52
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
26:53
being present because having a phone notifications checking our
27:00
emails watching
27:02
television our mind is active and we're not going to slow down
27:07
that way no but as
27:10
we talked about earlier going out in nature go from a walk and
27:13
suddenly be creative
27:16
SPEAKER_00: you might have your phone to take some note
27:19
SPEAKER_00: But you are not going out in nature to look at your phone.
27:24
SPEAKER_00: Because then you take in the surrounding.
27:27
SPEAKER_00: You notice that you are present in that situation.
27:33
SPEAKER_01: So start small.
27:34
SPEAKER_01: Start with the small things and then expand.
27:36
SPEAKER_01: That's great.
27:38
SPEAKER_01: All right.
27:39
SPEAKER_01: I remember one time when you gave me an advice that is very powerful,
27:44
SPEAKER_01: simple but powerful,
27:45
SPEAKER_01: yet very,
27:46
SPEAKER_01: very difficult.
27:48
SPEAKER_01: You encouraged me to ask the question, who am I?
27:54
SPEAKER_00: That small question.
27:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
27:59
And I remember one time we had many,
28:02
many years ago,
28:03
I was working in the corporate world.
28:04
SPEAKER_01: We had a speaker and we had to do an exercise.
28:09
SPEAKER_01: And I was supposed to ask my neighbor, who are you?
28:14
SPEAKER_01: And I remember...
28:17
She answered the question and she was very uncomfortable
28:20
because we were not
28:22
SPEAKER_01: supposed just to answer with simple,
28:25
SPEAKER_01: you know,
28:25
SPEAKER_01: the one,
28:26
SPEAKER_01: I'm a CEO or I work in IT or I'm a communicator or I have my company.
28:31
SPEAKER_01: But you were supposed to talk about who you are as a person.
28:36
SPEAKER_01: And I remember when she asked me again, who are you?
28:39
SPEAKER_01: That was difficult.
28:41
SPEAKER_01: That was very difficult to answer.
28:42
SPEAKER_01: It was difficult to answer.
28:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
28:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
28:46
SPEAKER_01: Without using titles or where you come from,
28:49
SPEAKER_01: where you're born and so forth,
28:52
SPEAKER_01: why do you think it's important that we ask this question?
28:57
SPEAKER_00: I think it's important,
28:58
SPEAKER_00: again,
28:59
SPEAKER_00: if we look at the perspective of going deeper,
29:02
SPEAKER_00: of sort of dripping away all those other layers.
29:09
SPEAKER_00: All right,
29:09
SPEAKER_00: if we don't use titles,
29:11
SPEAKER_00: if we don't use where we are born,
29:12
SPEAKER_00: if we don't use age,
29:13
if we don't use siblings or parents or roles in society or
29:19
level of education or
29:20
SPEAKER_00: whatever it might be,
29:21
SPEAKER_00: if we remove all of that,
29:24
SPEAKER_00: what's left?
29:28
And that might be sort of the core or the actual foundation
29:32
that you build your entire life on.
29:37
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
29:38
SPEAKER_00: And I would say that a better understanding to actually have,
29:43
SPEAKER_00: if you have looked at that,
29:46
SPEAKER_00: either you,
29:47
SPEAKER_00: I don't know what you find.
29:49
SPEAKER_00: That's the funny thing.
29:50
SPEAKER_00: Because that's, again, it's that treasure box.
29:55
SPEAKER_00: Then sort of the ever-ending package.
29:57
We just remove one layer after another and then sort of all
30:00
right,
30:00
what's in the middle?
30:03
SPEAKER_00: And I can't answer that.
30:07
SPEAKER_00: Some people say that it's nothing there.
30:09
SPEAKER_00: That we all just describe ourselves by all the layers we have around us.
30:16
SPEAKER_00: That sounds sad.
30:17
SPEAKER_00: It is.
30:18
SPEAKER_00: That sounds sad, yes.
30:20
Others have described it as,
30:22
I mean,
30:23
the core,
30:24
the essence that unites us all.
30:27
And suddenly,
30:27
when we go in that direction,
30:29
we become very religious,
30:30
very path.
30:31
SPEAKER_00: The idea of knowing who you are
30:37
I would say it's both a journey of exploration and it's also a
30:42
great way to start
30:47
SPEAKER_00: to recognize things in other people as well.
30:52
SPEAKER_00: To be able to look deeper into their life.
30:59
SPEAKER_00: And to then be able to make better connection with them.
31:02
SPEAKER_00: Because you have already, let's say, built the foundation.
31:07
SPEAKER_00: You have already found the foundation in you.
31:09
SPEAKER_00: So then you can build that bridge to someone else.
31:17
SPEAKER_00: And I know,
31:17
SPEAKER_00: again,
31:17
SPEAKER_00: how this sounds,
31:19
SPEAKER_00: but sort of I think what I'm talking about here is empathy,
31:22
the ability to place yourself in someone else's situation and
31:28
to understand that we
31:30
SPEAKER_00: are
31:32
SPEAKER_00: We all want to be happy.
31:34
SPEAKER_00: We all care about our loved ones.
31:36
SPEAKER_00: We all have these deep emotions and the further down we go,
31:45
SPEAKER_00: if we strip all these layers away,
31:50
SPEAKER_00: then the closer we are to each other,
31:52
SPEAKER_00: we are human beings.
31:55
SPEAKER_01: We have more in common than we think.
31:58
SPEAKER_00: Again, common ground.
32:01
SPEAKER_00: Then we are, again, the layers that we are standing upon.
32:04
SPEAKER_00: And we can start building bridges between us.
32:12
SPEAKER_01: So you have to understand who you are.
32:14
How does understanding yourself,
32:18
how can that help us change how we communicate with others?
32:25
SPEAKER_01: Is it where empathy comes in?
32:29
SPEAKER_00: Well, I think, of course, empathy has a crucial part in it.
32:33
SPEAKER_00: And I also,
32:34
SPEAKER_00: I think that there are extremely,
32:39
SPEAKER_00: a lot of subtle details here that we,
32:42
SPEAKER_00: it's very hard to put into words.
32:44
SPEAKER_00: To sort of, oh, why do I connect with someone?
32:48
SPEAKER_00: Why do, why sort of, you can meet someone and you realize we're friends.
32:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
32:54
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't take that long.
32:56
And then there are others who you sort of might have to work a
33:00
little bit more
33:01
SPEAKER_00: before you feel that level of connection.
33:05
And I think that the difference there is the amount of sort of
33:10
how deep have you
33:11
SPEAKER_00: looked inside yourself?
33:12
SPEAKER_00: Do you recognize that?
33:16
SPEAKER_00: Oh, we have sort of not done the work.
33:19
SPEAKER_00: We have explored.
33:20
SPEAKER_00: We have found stuff.
33:21
SPEAKER_00: We can recognize things in each other.
33:27
When you have looked deeper into yourself and you can...
33:32
That might reveal stuff.
33:35
SPEAKER_00: And what I mean by that is that it might reveal that, oh, I needed...
33:41
SPEAKER_00: this piece of advice to understand this concept,
33:44
or this perspective really changed how I viewed this or
33:51
whatever it might be.
33:53
SPEAKER_00: And taking the time to reflect on yourself, to understand yourself,
34:00
SPEAKER_00: That might result,
34:01
it might create a connection to someone else just because it
34:07
shows that you have
34:08
SPEAKER_00: made effort.
34:10
SPEAKER_00: And that's an effort that I don't know,
34:13
SPEAKER_00: it's very,
34:14
SPEAKER_00: very,
34:14
very hard to put into words to sort of to understand and to
34:19
make that connection.
34:22
with someone and it's it's like sort of being able to build a
34:26
bridge and you know
34:27
that yet there is something here there is something where that
34:31
bridge can land if
34:33
if you haven't explored yourself in that that deeply i might
34:39
build a bridge but i
34:40
find that there is nothing nothing here to support the other
34:44
end of that bridge
34:46
To be able to make that connection,
34:47
you have to have some form of foundation.
34:50
You have to have something that you can stand on on both sides
34:55
in order to build that bridge.
34:56
And as you meet someone,
34:59
you might realize,
34:59
yes,
35:00
we are friends straight away.
35:01
SPEAKER_00: And that connection is there.
35:03
SPEAKER_00: If you haven't explored those aspects of yourself,
35:06
SPEAKER_00: and I mean,
35:07
SPEAKER_00: we can take the example of becoming a parent.
35:12
SPEAKER_00: Before I became a parent myself,
35:14
SPEAKER_00: I didn't know what it was like,
35:16
which means that I had a very difficult time to connecting with
35:20
someone who had
35:21
SPEAKER_00: children because I hadn't explored that aspect of myself.
35:27
SPEAKER_00: And then suddenly,
35:28
SPEAKER_00: when I became a parent,
35:29
SPEAKER_00: I realized that,
35:31
SPEAKER_00: ah,
35:31
SPEAKER_00: now I understand what it is you're talking about.
35:33
SPEAKER_00: I have reached the same,
35:35
SPEAKER_00: I have gained that same understanding,
35:38
SPEAKER_00: and then we can form a deeper connection.
35:40
SPEAKER_01: It starts with understanding yourself more.
35:46
SPEAKER_01: I know you think and you believe,
35:49
SPEAKER_01: and you've said it before as well,
35:51
SPEAKER_01: that everything you do communicates something.
35:57
SPEAKER_01: Everything you do communicates something.
36:01
SPEAKER_01: It is a powerful statement that
36:04
When did you realize this and how has this changed how you show
36:11
up in this world?
36:14
I started to realize it when I started running my own company
36:20
because I realized
36:22
SPEAKER_00: that every email that I sent out,
36:27
SPEAKER_00: I represent myself.
36:31
SPEAKER_00: I represent my company.
36:32
SPEAKER_00: I build a brand if you want to use that word.
36:36
SPEAKER_00: And that is quite obvious to people that you want to be nice in email.
36:44
SPEAKER_00: But then if I get a reply and I don't
36:48
SPEAKER_00: I don't follow up.
36:49
SPEAKER_00: That also communicates something.
36:52
SPEAKER_00: It communicates something if I wait a week before I reply.
37:00
SPEAKER_00: It communicates something if I reply in three minutes.
37:05
SPEAKER_00: Everything you do communicates something,
37:07
SPEAKER_00: not only sort of the actual words in the email,
37:10
SPEAKER_00: but everything surrounding it.
37:13
SPEAKER_00: Sending a question to someone at 4 p.m.
37:17
SPEAKER_00: on a Friday afternoon might communicate that you don't sort of do I,
37:22
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
37:24
SPEAKER_00: do I respect your time?
37:25
SPEAKER_00: Do I expect you to deal with this before the weekend?
37:29
SPEAKER_00: All of these different subtleties.
37:32
SPEAKER_00: Everything we do,
37:33
SPEAKER_00: not only from what we say,
37:35
SPEAKER_00: not only how we say it,
37:36
SPEAKER_00: but also when we say it,
37:38
SPEAKER_00: what we don't say,
37:40
SPEAKER_00: what we exclude,
37:41
SPEAKER_00: all of these different aspects communicate something.
37:47
SPEAKER_00: And I would say that it has changed me.
37:51
SPEAKER_00: And right now I can be more...
37:55
SPEAKER_00: I'm more open and more curious to explore it.
37:58
SPEAKER_00: Because when I first realized it,
37:59
SPEAKER_00: I was like,
38:01
SPEAKER_00: but I mean,
38:02
SPEAKER_00: there are so many times I can do wrong or sort of make a mistake.
38:07
SPEAKER_00: Or what would people think about this?
38:08
SPEAKER_00: Or what can I do about that?
38:10
SPEAKER_00: All of those things was overwhelming at first.
38:14
SPEAKER_00: But being able to,
38:16
SPEAKER_00: again,
38:16
SPEAKER_00: be aware of it,
38:17
SPEAKER_00: be present of it,
38:20
SPEAKER_00: be open,
38:21
SPEAKER_00: be curious,
38:22
SPEAKER_00: and then you can start to choose how you want to communicate.
38:28
And the only way in order to choose between two or three
38:31
different options is to
38:32
SPEAKER_00: actually be aware that there is more than one option.
38:36
SPEAKER_01: This is fantastic, by the way.
38:39
SPEAKER_01: Everything you do communicates something.
38:42
SPEAKER_01: So this means then that we have to be very clear and set the intention.
38:49
SPEAKER_01: What do I want to communicate?
38:53
SPEAKER_01: You're going to give a presentation.
38:55
SPEAKER_01: You're going to lead a meeting.
38:57
SPEAKER_01: And so what is my intention here?
39:01
SPEAKER_01: What do I want to communicate?
39:04
SPEAKER_01: What do I want to do?
39:05
SPEAKER_01: How do I want to show up in this world?
39:07
SPEAKER_01: What is my intention for today?
39:10
SPEAKER_01: I think it ties perfectly to what it is that you're saying right now.
39:15
SPEAKER_01: Everything you do communicates something.
39:17
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
39:20
SPEAKER_00: And it's both, as I said, overwhelming to realize that.
39:25
And it's also a blessing in realizing that every little detail
39:32
might have an impact
39:33
SPEAKER_00: on someone's life.
39:35
You might be able to say or communicate a lot more than you
39:40
actually realize.
39:42
SPEAKER_01: This is so true.
39:44
SPEAKER_01: It is very true.
39:45
SPEAKER_01: I remember one time when I got an email from a customer many years ago.
39:51
I remember I didn't reply and then I forgot about the email and
39:56
then I replied
39:56
SPEAKER_01: three,
39:57
SPEAKER_01: four weeks later and I tried calling them and they never replied back.
40:02
SPEAKER_01: They never answered my email because it took me about two,
40:07
SPEAKER_01: three weeks,
40:07
SPEAKER_01: four weeks perhaps until I emailed them.
40:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
40:12
And I think for them,
40:13
it signaled that doing business with them was not important.
40:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
40:20
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
40:21
SPEAKER_00: But then again,
40:23
SPEAKER_00: because I'm not then suggesting here that,
40:25
SPEAKER_00: oh,
40:25
you should reply straight away because it's not the speed of
40:29
the reply that's
40:30
SPEAKER_00: important.
40:30
SPEAKER_00: It's not how much do I put into that reply?
40:35
Because if you have an extremely busy period and you then get
40:40
back after four weeks,
40:42
And you don't have to explain everything,
40:46
but sort of be open and honest that I missed this.
40:51
SPEAKER_00: I'm sorry for the late reply and all of that.
40:54
And then if you hear nothing back,
40:56
then all right,
40:57
then that wasn't the business.
40:58
But then from the other perspective,
41:00
then if you suddenly get that reply four weeks later,
41:04
SPEAKER_00: if you don't get back,
41:07
SPEAKER_00: if you don't reply,
41:09
SPEAKER_00: if you don't show empathy or understanding that,
41:12
SPEAKER_00: oh,
41:13
SPEAKER_00: thank you for reaching out.
41:15
Sorry,
41:15
we have moved on with another speaker or we have sorted it out
41:18
ourselves.
41:19
That also then communicates something that they didn't call
41:25
back,
41:26
sort of get back to you.
41:29
SPEAKER_00: All these tiny little interactions that we have throughout the day
41:35
SPEAKER_00: All of these communicate something.
41:38
SPEAKER_01: They do.
41:38
SPEAKER_01: They do.
41:38
SPEAKER_01: I guess in my situation,
41:40
SPEAKER_01: my intention now as a speaker,
41:43
SPEAKER_01: consultant,
41:44
SPEAKER_01: expert in communication and trust is to...
41:47
SPEAKER_01: Speed is important.
41:49
SPEAKER_01: If a customer wants to reach out,
41:52
SPEAKER_01: I would like to communicate that,
41:53
SPEAKER_01: you know,
41:54
SPEAKER_01: I'm dealing with this.
41:55
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to get back to you.
41:56
SPEAKER_01: You're going to get a quality.
41:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
41:57
SPEAKER_01: But I think it took me,
41:59
SPEAKER_01: in the beginning,
42:00
I wasn't very clear about my intention because I wasn't paying
42:04
much attention.
42:05
SPEAKER_01: I guess I wasn't aware very much of what I was communicating.
42:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
42:12
SPEAKER_01: But right now,
42:13
SPEAKER_01: I'm more aware of what I do and how,
42:17
SPEAKER_01: like you say,
42:18
SPEAKER_01: how it communicates and what it is that it's communicating.
42:21
SPEAKER_01: So intention is the key here, I guess, for me.
42:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
42:25
SPEAKER_00: And as you say,
42:26
SPEAKER_00: as you describe it perfectly,
42:28
the thing that you learn that and you learn it when you run
42:31
your own business and
42:33
you perhaps sometimes forget it when you work at a bigger
42:37
organization that you're
42:38
SPEAKER_00: just part of the machine and,
42:39
SPEAKER_00: oh,
42:40
SPEAKER_00: it's someone else's responsibility.
42:42
SPEAKER_00: Or what I'm doing here,
42:45
SPEAKER_00: if I reply to this email,
42:47
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
42:47
SPEAKER_00: that doesn't make a difference to our organization,
42:53
SPEAKER_00: but they actually do.
42:54
SPEAKER_00: Sort of all of these little interactions, they add up over time.
42:59
SPEAKER_01: You talk about three types of conversations.
43:02
SPEAKER_01: And you mentioned that if you want better conversations,
43:07
SPEAKER_01: you need to understand whether the other person wants to be helped,
43:12
SPEAKER_01: hugged,
43:14
SPEAKER_01: or heard.
43:16
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
43:17
SPEAKER_01: I haven't heard of this framework before.
43:19
SPEAKER_01: Can you tell me where you got this from?
43:22
SPEAKER_00: I got this from a book called Super Communicators by Charles DeHigg.
43:30
SPEAKER_00: An excellent book, I would say.
43:31
SPEAKER_00: I highly recommend it.
43:33
And in it,
43:34
he talks about sort of what type of conversation are you
43:37
having?
43:40
SPEAKER_00: Are we talking about solving a problem?
43:43
SPEAKER_00: Are we talking about how are we feeling, the emotional aspect of it?
43:49
Or are we going even deeper and talking about who are we in
43:54
this situation?
43:56
SPEAKER_00: And being able to understand what type of conversation we are having is
44:06
crucial,
44:06
I would say,
44:07
to reduce misunderstanding and to build trust and build
44:13
connection.
44:15
SPEAKER_00: And I mean,
44:15
SPEAKER_00: just as an example,
44:19
SPEAKER_00: if you get home from work and you have to sort of,
44:23
SPEAKER_00: you have that colleague that you just want to,
44:27
SPEAKER_00: I have to tell you what he did today and you just want to get it out.
44:33
SPEAKER_00: You just need to, you have experienced something today.
44:35
You just want to tell this story and you want the other person
44:40
just to listen.
44:43
SPEAKER_00: But if your partner then suddenly starts,
44:45
SPEAKER_00: well,
44:45
SPEAKER_00: if that's just a big problem,
44:47
SPEAKER_00: well,
44:47
SPEAKER_00: do this and do that.
44:49
SPEAKER_00: Why haven't you tried this?
44:52
SPEAKER_00: The other person is then suddenly trying to help you, offer solutions.
44:59
to a problem that doesn't exist because you just wanted to tell
45:02
this story and you
45:03
SPEAKER_00: just wanted to get all of these experiences out of your system.
45:09
SPEAKER_00: And you are having different types of conversation.
45:12
SPEAKER_00: You are not at the same place.
45:14
SPEAKER_00: And if you're not in the same place, it's hard to build that bridge.
45:16
Because then again,
45:18
you are in one place,
45:19
but there is nothing on the other end.
45:22
SPEAKER_00: And Charles argues in that book that that's something that we have to...
45:29
SPEAKER_00: to learn to understand what kind of conversation are we actually having.
45:33
And one framework then that you mentioned then that also kind
45:37
of different,
45:38
SPEAKER_00: I think teachers in some schools have been guided to,
45:43
SPEAKER_00: if a student comes to them to actually sort of figure,
45:48
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
45:48
the easiest way to figure out what kind of conversation are we
45:51
having is to ask,
45:52
SPEAKER_00: do you want me to help you?
45:54
SPEAKER_00: Do you want me to hug you?
45:55
SPEAKER_00: Or do you want me just to listen to you?
45:57
SPEAKER_00: Do you want to be heard?
46:00
SPEAKER_00: So if you don't know what kind of conversation you're having,
46:03
SPEAKER_00: ask and just sort of be,
46:06
SPEAKER_00: again,
46:06
SPEAKER_00: present and trying to find the intention.
46:11
SPEAKER_00: And that can be in different meetings.
46:13
SPEAKER_00: If we are discussing sort of, all right, who are we at the company?
46:18
then that's a deeper conversation that might not involve sort
46:21
of practical
46:22
SPEAKER_00: solutions to some features on the website or whatever it might be.
46:28
SPEAKER_00: Those are different types of conversation.
46:33
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
46:34
SPEAKER_01: So what's the difference between helping, hearing and hugging?
46:44
SPEAKER_00: Well,
46:44
SPEAKER_00: the difference,
46:46
SPEAKER_00: I think,
46:47
SPEAKER_00: is to make sure that you are at the same place,
46:54
SPEAKER_00: to be aware that can you offer solutions?
47:00
SPEAKER_00: Is this a problem that you want me to solve?
47:04
SPEAKER_00: Is that sort of the discussion we are having?
47:07
SPEAKER_00: So that's helping, right?
47:09
SPEAKER_00: Yes, that's helping, exactly.
47:11
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so offering advice.
47:13
SPEAKER_00: Offering advice,
47:13
SPEAKER_00: being in a practical setting,
47:15
SPEAKER_00: sort of that getting down to business,
47:18
SPEAKER_00: how do we sort this out?
47:19
SPEAKER_00: How do we sort of fix this problem?
47:21
SPEAKER_00: How do we structure this project?
47:26
SPEAKER_00: Both in brainstorming mode,
47:27
SPEAKER_00: sort of trying to solve a problem,
47:29
SPEAKER_00: figuring stuff out,
47:31
SPEAKER_00: and helping each other,
47:33
SPEAKER_00: offering advice,
47:35
SPEAKER_00: offering input and stuff like that.
47:39
SPEAKER_00: In another situation, it might be then more emotional.
47:43
SPEAKER_00: It might be more, I experienced this.
47:46
SPEAKER_00: I'm feeling very sad right now.
47:49
SPEAKER_00: It's a lot of work.
47:51
SPEAKER_00: It's more the emotional aspect of it.
47:55
to how much can you handle not being overwhelmed or sort of
48:04
struggling at home or
48:06
SPEAKER_00: all of these different aspects of your life.
48:12
all the different emotions and in that case it's more like sort
48:16
of i'm here for you
48:18
it's yeah it's they sort of just listening and absorbing and
48:25
maybe ask a follow-up
48:26
question to all right how do you feel about that not be the
48:29
psychologist but sort
48:30
of be be the good friend to offer a lending ear when someone
48:35
just needs to
48:36
SPEAKER_00: talk about their emotion, how they're feeling.
48:38
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
48:40
SPEAKER_01: So be heard.
48:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
48:41
SPEAKER_00: Be heard.
48:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the second one.
48:43
SPEAKER_00: And then we have hugged.
48:45
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
48:46
And I realize now that I might actually sort of have the last
48:52
one that I discovered might be
48:57
might actually be the hugged one sort of to be there and to
49:00
embrace and to just be
49:04
that friend because be heard can also be the sort of who are we
49:11
and that might be
49:12
the all right i'm talking to someone who let's say we have
49:19
different opinions in
49:20
SPEAKER_00: politics or in a political question or the uh
49:27
SPEAKER_00: I don't know what kind of example,
49:29
SPEAKER_00: sort of,
49:29
SPEAKER_00: oh,
49:30
SPEAKER_00: I don't believe in climate change,
49:31
SPEAKER_00: but I do,
49:32
SPEAKER_00: sort of,
49:32
SPEAKER_00: all right.
49:33
SPEAKER_00: How do we listen to, let's say, who we are then?
49:37
SPEAKER_00: Where do you stand on this?
49:39
SPEAKER_00: How can we show empathy for people with different opinions?
49:43
SPEAKER_00: How can we make them feel heard?
49:46
SPEAKER_00: That's a very, let's say, extreme situation of it.
49:51
SPEAKER_00: And of course, this Supercommunicator, it's a book then from America.
49:54
SPEAKER_00: So then we're talking about,
49:55
SPEAKER_00: let's say,
49:55
abortion and gun control and all of these extremely loaded
49:59
topics and being able
50:01
SPEAKER_00: to,
50:02
SPEAKER_00: again,
50:03
build bridges between those because you then can go into the
50:07
deeper values of being
50:10
SPEAKER_00: human,
50:10
finding what we have in common instead of focusing on all the
50:14
stuff that separates
50:15
SPEAKER_00: us.
50:16
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
50:17
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so three types of conversations.
50:19
SPEAKER_01: Figure out which one you are in.
50:22
SPEAKER_01: Because some people want to be helped.
50:24
SPEAKER_01: Advice, solutions.
50:26
SPEAKER_01: Some people want to be heard.
50:29
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
50:30
SPEAKER_01: And then the third one is they want to be hugged.
50:33
SPEAKER_01: And here you offer...
50:36
SPEAKER_01: You can give them a hug.
50:37
SPEAKER_01: You listen to them.
50:39
SPEAKER_01: You don't necessarily give them advice.
50:42
SPEAKER_01: And usually it's people who are closer to us.
50:46
SPEAKER_01: Is that a correct understanding?
50:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I would say that.
50:52
SPEAKER_00: Finding a way, finding the connection, finding what sort of unite us.
50:58
SPEAKER_00: Who are we in this situation?
51:01
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
51:03
SPEAKER_01: And I guess super communicators,
51:05
SPEAKER_01: like you said,
51:06
they can identify which conversation they're in and hence offer
51:14
the right response.
51:17
And so where we have misunderstandings,
51:19
it's probably because we offer the wrong response.
51:25
SPEAKER_00: Often, yes.
51:26
SPEAKER_00: And not only finding the right response,
51:28
SPEAKER_00: but also perhaps asking another question or a deeper question.
51:33
SPEAKER_00: Because I also think that,
51:35
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
51:35
SPEAKER_00: these different kinds of situation,
51:37
SPEAKER_00: it's not that clear that,
51:39
SPEAKER_00: oh,
51:39
SPEAKER_00: this meeting,
51:40
SPEAKER_00: well,
51:41
SPEAKER_00: sometimes it is.
51:41
SPEAKER_00: This meeting is about this.
51:43
SPEAKER_00: And then...
51:45
SPEAKER_00: That's what we're talking about.
51:46
SPEAKER_00: But still during that meeting,
51:48
it might be that there is sort of two individuals that they
51:53
don't want to accept
51:54
SPEAKER_00: this change or they don't get along with the rest of the group.
51:58
SPEAKER_00: It might be all of these different intricacies.
52:01
SPEAKER_00: And that might be a result of then something deeper.
52:05
It might be some emotions laying underneath or a deeper value
52:09
or whatever.
52:11
SPEAKER_00: And then sort of asking the questions to find out
52:15
where they stand or what is it that they come out as aggression
52:22
or frustration or
52:24
SPEAKER_00: resentment or whatever it might be.
52:26
SPEAKER_00: So it's, let's say, too simple to think.
52:31
SPEAKER_00: It's a good framework to think of the three types of conversation.
52:36
SPEAKER_00: But then there is a fluidity between them that often throughout the day,
52:40
SPEAKER_00: we are moving between these different types of conversation.
52:45
And it's a dance when we communicate that where someone might
52:50
offer or say
52:51
SPEAKER_00: something a little detail and suddenly you realize,
52:54
SPEAKER_00: oh,
52:55
SPEAKER_00: wait,
52:56
SPEAKER_00: what did you say about your friend?
52:58
SPEAKER_00: So tell me more.
52:59
SPEAKER_00: Or are you okay with that?
53:01
Stop the practical thing and just look a little bit deeper into
53:05
the emotional clue
53:08
that might have been revealed just by adding a comment or
53:11
something in the
53:11
SPEAKER_00: conversation.
53:14
SPEAKER_01: You just answered my next question,
53:16
SPEAKER_01: which was going to be,
53:17
SPEAKER_01: this is great,
53:18
SPEAKER_01: which was going to be,
53:20
how can someone get better at identifying what kind of
53:24
conversation they are
53:25
SPEAKER_01: actually in
53:28
What I take from your answer is you have to realize that you
53:33
sometimes go in and out.
53:36
SPEAKER_01: You know, it's like a dance.
53:38
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes you're in this type of conversation.
53:41
SPEAKER_01: One moment later, you can be in a totally different kind of conversation.
53:45
SPEAKER_01: And you also said, ask more questions.
53:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
53:49
SPEAKER_01: Because sometimes it's not clear.
53:52
SPEAKER_01: What are we talking about?
53:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
53:55
SPEAKER_01: what do you want me to do?
53:56
SPEAKER_01: Do you want me to listen?
53:58
SPEAKER_01: Do you want me to give advice?
53:59
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
53:59
Because sometimes what I do is,
54:01
especially with loved ones,
54:04
I have a tendency to give advice.
54:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
54:08
SPEAKER_01: And sometimes they don't like it.
54:10
SPEAKER_01: And I guess it's because I haven't identified the conversation I'm in.
54:14
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes they just perhaps just want to be hugged or heard.
54:21
In a similar situation,
54:22
because that you want to give advice because you want to help.
54:28
SPEAKER_00: But then sort of, is it that what the other person wants at that moment?
54:32
Because then we might sort of acknowledge the emotional state
54:36
and then we sort of
54:37
SPEAKER_00: can move on to,
54:37
SPEAKER_00: all right,
54:38
SPEAKER_00: but how do we solve it?
54:39
SPEAKER_00: How can we even solve this?
54:41
How can we make the situation so that you don't feel that way
54:44
or that being that
54:45
SPEAKER_00: frustrated with your colleague or whatever it might be?
54:49
SPEAKER_00: Sort of.
54:49
first acknowledging the emotion being in that type of
54:54
conversation and then before
54:57
offering advice ask the question all right how do we sort of to
55:02
be aware of that
55:03
now we are moving into another type of conversation and to
55:06
guide someone along that
55:08
SPEAKER_00: line
55:09
SPEAKER_00: But of course,
55:09
it is a dance to realize that we are having many different
55:12
types of conversation.
55:14
SPEAKER_00: And the best way to be more aware of them is to,
55:18
SPEAKER_00: first of all,
55:19
SPEAKER_00: then be present and to observe them.
55:21
SPEAKER_00: But if you're not aware of, all right, what are we talking about here?
55:27
ask don't be afraid to actually ask the question what do you
55:29
mean by that or why
55:31
are you saying that or can you dive a little bit deeper in
55:35
there or what do you
55:36
want me to do with that piece of information all of these
55:40
different things
55:41
SPEAKER_00: To always,
55:42
SPEAKER_00: to don't be afraid to ask the stupid question,
55:46
SPEAKER_00: which is actually then quite clever,
55:48
SPEAKER_00: of course,
55:48
SPEAKER_00: because you realize that you will gain more insight.
55:52
You will find the motivation why someone thinks or do or feel
55:57
the way they do.
55:58
SPEAKER_01: I also think the best communicators,
56:01
SPEAKER_01: if they are not sure,
56:02
SPEAKER_01: just like you said before,
56:03
SPEAKER_01: asking questions,
56:05
SPEAKER_01: If they're not sure about,
56:06
SPEAKER_01: you know,
56:07
SPEAKER_01: if they're going to give you advice,
56:09
SPEAKER_01: they simply say,
56:10
SPEAKER_01: is it okay if I give you advice?
56:12
SPEAKER_01: Would you like to hear my perspective?
56:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
56:15
And if the other person says yes,
56:17
then you're invited to give your opinion or give advice.
56:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
56:21
SPEAKER_01: So asking more questions.
56:22
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
56:22
SPEAKER_00: And in the same way, you can also be clear.
56:27
SPEAKER_00: I have had this experience today.
56:29
SPEAKER_00: I just want you to listen to it.
56:30
SPEAKER_00: I don't want any advice.
56:33
SPEAKER_00: It's not a problem that I want to be solved.
56:35
It's just something you need to hear this because I just need
56:37
to get it out of my
56:38
SPEAKER_00: system because I'm frustrated with
56:42
SPEAKER_00: So it's to be a super communicator,
56:46
SPEAKER_00: to be able to both,
56:49
SPEAKER_00: as you said,
56:50
SPEAKER_00: ask the question to others,
56:52
SPEAKER_00: but also reveal your own intention before going into the conversation.
56:57
And in that way,
56:58
helping the other person understand what type of conversation
57:01
are we having.
57:03
SPEAKER_01: Declaring your intention.
57:05
SPEAKER_01: All right.
57:05
SPEAKER_01: So we've talked a lot about very profound things.
57:11
SPEAKER_01: I am a fan of your work.
57:13
SPEAKER_01: I'm also fascinated by the things we've talked about today.
57:18
Understanding on a deeper level,
57:20
different kinds of conversations and so forth.
57:24
If someone would only remember one thing from this
57:28
conversation,
57:29
what do you hope it is?
57:36
SPEAKER_00: Only one thing.
57:37
SPEAKER_00: Only one thing.
57:38
SPEAKER_00: But that's good.
57:39
SPEAKER_00: Limiting.
57:40
But I would say then to be to realize that everything you do
57:47
communicates something
57:49
SPEAKER_00: and not to be overwhelmed by that,
57:52
SPEAKER_00: but rather curious and to start exploring and in that way,
57:58
SPEAKER_00: be more present and be more aware of how and what it is you communicate.
58:05
SPEAKER_01: Everything you do communicates something.
58:09
SPEAKER_01: So set your intention.
58:10
SPEAKER_01: What do you want to communicate?
58:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because that's the choice.
58:15
SPEAKER_00: That's a choice.
58:16
SPEAKER_00: That is a choice.
58:16
SPEAKER_00: And communication is something that you can be aware of.
58:22
SPEAKER_00: It's something that you can practice.
58:23
SPEAKER_00: It's something that you can set your intention to.
58:25
SPEAKER_00: What is it that I want to communicate?
58:27
SPEAKER_00: What is it that I want other people to feel?
58:30
SPEAKER_00: And then practice that.
58:32
It's not something that we learn to speak when we are young
58:36
children and then we
58:37
SPEAKER_00: don't develop that over the years.
58:38
SPEAKER_00: I mean, we change all the time.
58:41
SPEAKER_00: And so does our way of communicating.
58:45
SPEAKER_01: And the best communicators,
58:46
SPEAKER_01: the best leaders,
58:48
SPEAKER_01: the best professionals,
58:50
SPEAKER_01: they work on their communication skills and they set their intentions.
58:55
SPEAKER_01: This is powerful, powerful stuff, Daniel.
58:58
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
59:01
So what one advice would you give our listeners to live a
59:08
better,
59:08
more meaningful life?
59:13
SPEAKER_00: I would say, then,
59:20
SPEAKER_00: To dare to look again at the world and yourself,
59:23
to be brave and to be curious and to be patient with sort of
59:30
you don't have to have
59:31
SPEAKER_00: the full picture at the start,
59:33
but be open minded and curious to actually explore it and to
59:37
look a little bit
59:38
SPEAKER_00: deeper and to realize that there can be many,
59:44
SPEAKER_00: many answers to the same question.
59:51
SPEAKER_00: To look deeper,
59:52
SPEAKER_00: look again,
59:53
SPEAKER_00: to look deeper,
59:53
SPEAKER_00: to look again,
59:54
SPEAKER_00: because then you both,
59:56
you realize that the world is both awful and better and can be
1:00:00
much better.
1:00:01
SPEAKER_00: And that all of these are true at the same time.
1:00:04
You,
1:00:05
you,
1:00:06
you sort of,
1:00:06
you get a more profound image of the world and of others and
1:00:12
yourself.
1:00:14
SPEAKER_02: Hmm.
1:00:16
Daniel,
1:00:17
is there something I should have asked you about that I haven't
1:00:21
asked?
1:00:23
SPEAKER_00: That's a very good question.
1:00:25
SPEAKER_00: I...
1:00:32
SPEAKER_00: I can't think of something, actually.
1:00:34
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
1:00:36
SPEAKER_00: as you said,
1:00:37
SPEAKER_00: we have talked a lot about interesting things,
1:00:42
SPEAKER_00: deep things,
1:00:43
philosophical things and stuff that can be applied practically
1:00:47
in your daily life.
1:00:49
SPEAKER_00: And I would like to clarify that.
1:00:53
I mean,
1:00:54
I don't have all the answers to this because I'm exploring it
1:00:57
myself.
1:00:58
SPEAKER_00: This is a journey that I am on.
1:01:02
I have started it and I'm learning new things,
1:01:05
new perspectives,
1:01:06
and I truly enjoy it.
1:01:08
And I know that if there is one thing that will improve your
1:01:15
quality of life,
1:01:17
SPEAKER_00: I've heard it from others and I've experienced it for myself,
1:01:19
SPEAKER_00: it is the level of your communication.
1:01:22
SPEAKER_00: Being able to connect with others,
1:01:25
whether that is your colleagues or your boss or your customers
1:01:28
or your loved ones.
1:01:29
SPEAKER_01: Daniel,
1:01:30
SPEAKER_01: if people want to find you,
1:01:32
SPEAKER_01: get to know more about you or follow you,
1:01:34
SPEAKER_01: where can they find you?
1:01:37
They can follow me on LinkedIn and they can also subscribe to
1:01:42
my newsletter.
1:01:43
SPEAKER_00: And they find all of that information on my website, talkingbridge.net.
1:01:51
Talkingbridge.se But the website is still in English,
1:01:55
but the ending is in English.
1:01:59
SPEAKER_01: Oh,
1:01:59
SPEAKER_01: so the domain is...
1:02:00
SPEAKER_00: Domain is in English,
1:02:01
SPEAKER_00: but the website is in English,
1:02:02
SPEAKER_00: so everything is...
1:02:03
SPEAKER_01: All right,
1:02:03
SPEAKER_01: so talkingbridge.se,
1:02:05
SPEAKER_01: and they can find you on LinkedIn.
1:02:07
SPEAKER_01: Daniel Nordström.
1:02:09
SPEAKER_01: All right,
1:02:09
SPEAKER_01: Daniel,
1:02:10
SPEAKER_01: I admire your curiosity,
1:02:12
SPEAKER_01: your dedication to nature,
1:02:13
SPEAKER_01: to communication,
1:02:14
SPEAKER_01: to humanity.
1:02:17
And what I take from me from this conversation is identify the
1:02:21
type of conversation you're in.
1:02:24
SPEAKER_01: Some people want to be heard.
1:02:26
SPEAKER_01: Some people want to be hugged.
1:02:28
SPEAKER_01: Some people want to be helped.
1:02:30
SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much, Daniel.
1:02:31
SPEAKER_01: It was great to have you here.
1:02:33
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
1:02:33
SPEAKER_00: It was an honor being here.
1:02:36
SPEAKER_01: Thank you for listening to Speaking of Meaning.
1:02:39
SPEAKER_01: If today's episode helped you see communication in a new way,
1:02:43
SPEAKER_01: share it with someone you care about,
1:02:44
SPEAKER_01: a friend,
1:02:46
SPEAKER_01: a partner or a colleague who wants to grow.
1:02:48
SPEAKER_01: And don't forget to follow the podcast so you never miss an episode.
1:02:53
SPEAKER_01: I'm Ibrahim.
1:02:54
SPEAKER_01: Until next time, better communication, greater impact.