Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #124 Jason Flom with Damien Echols in Times of COVID

Transcript

#124 Jason Flom with Damien Echols in Times of COVID · Wrongful Conviction

0:02
Speaker 1: Welcome to a brand new miniseries Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flohm.
0:06
Speaker 1: In the time of COVID, You know, COVID nineteen has
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Speaker 1: totally derailed our normal lives and spun us into a
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Speaker 1: new strange world of isolation, restricted movement, anxiety, despair, and
0:19
Speaker 1: even the threat of death. And it occurred to me
0:22
Speaker 1: that I know a lot of people that have an
0:24
Speaker 1: intimate knowledge of all these things and much much worse,
0:27
Speaker 1: and they know how to cope with them. So I've
0:29
Speaker 1: asked a few of my friends to share their very
0:32
Speaker 1: unique experiences to help guide us all through these rough
0:36
Speaker 1: waters that they know all too well. My hope is
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Speaker 1: that all of us can gain some perspective, knowledge and
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Speaker 1: value from their triumphs over tragedy. Today, we'll talk to
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Speaker 1: a man who did eighteen years on death row for
0:50
Speaker 1: a crime he didn't commit, during which he spent over
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Speaker 1: twenty three hours a day locked in a tiny six
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Speaker 1: by nine foot cell, all while waiting for the state
0:59
Speaker 1: of arc saw to set his execution day to take
1:02
Speaker 1: his life. He'll tell us how he used exercise, art, structure,
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Speaker 1: mental focus, and free will to not allow isolation or
1:10
Speaker 1: fear to break him. Plus an epiphany that came from
1:14
Speaker 1: an encounter he had with a man who had actually
1:17
Speaker 1: beaten someone to death with a can of corn, an
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Speaker 1: encounter that continues to guide him even through our current
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Speaker 1: shared reality in this time of COVID. We've interviewed him
1:28
Speaker 1: before and touched on his story again through one of
1:30
Speaker 1: his co defendants, Jason Baldwin. Their story is so totally
1:35
Speaker 1: insane that we even spent time with documentary and Joe Burlinger,
1:38
Speaker 1: who first covered their story as it was originally unfolding
1:41
Speaker 1: before he and his friends became known as the West
1:45
Speaker 1: Memphis three. I encourage you to check out season two,
1:49
Speaker 1: episode eight, Season seven, episode five, and season eight episode
1:53
Speaker 1: twelve to hear how the state literally pointed to I
1:57
Speaker 1: kid you not heavy metal music and Stephen King novels
2:01
Speaker 1: as quote unquote evidence along with a false confession to
2:05
Speaker 1: convict them for the murder of three young boys in
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Speaker 1: the woods. A deeply religious community just knew it had
2:11
Speaker 1: to be Satanism or something like that, and it had
2:14
Speaker 1: to be that boy who wore Metallica T shirts. Today
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Speaker 1: we'll talk to one of my personal heroes. It's become
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Speaker 1: a dear friend, Damien Eccles, about coping in the time
2:25
Speaker 1: of COVID. Hey, Damien, welcome back.
2:35
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. It actually feels
2:38
Speaker 2: really nice just doing this again.
2:40
Speaker 1: Well, it's really good of you to do it, and
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Speaker 1: I know a lot of people will take comfort from
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Speaker 1: learning what you have to say as they endure this
2:47
Speaker 1: very bizarre and troublesome time that we're all living through together. So,
2:51
Speaker 1: first of all, Damien, how are you and Laurie doing?
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Speaker 3: Kind of really well?
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Speaker 2: Actually, as strange as it sounds, you know, for everything
2:59
Speaker 2: that's going on in the world, especially here in New
3:02
Speaker 2: York City, but I think this kind of life was
3:07
Speaker 2: something that I got used to, you know, when I
3:10
Speaker 2: was in prison. I got used to having to focus inwardly,
3:13
Speaker 2: so I wasn't as dependent upon outside stimulus as most
3:19
Speaker 2: people who have never been put into that situation are.
3:23
Speaker 2: So I find myself almost returning to the things that
3:27
Speaker 2: helped me cope with prison life out here and realizing
3:32
Speaker 2: that those things are actually really good for me.
3:35
Speaker 1: Well, you know, I've heard you talk about this stuff before,
3:38
Speaker 1: but for this special episode, can you just touch on
3:41
Speaker 1: how you adapted and what were some of the things
3:44
Speaker 1: that allowed you to maintain your sanity in the most
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Speaker 1: insane situation imaginable.
3:50
Speaker 2: Honestly, I think the number one thing that helped me
3:53
Speaker 2: stay sane is figuring out that I could not live
3:57
Speaker 2: for the future. And I think that's really important right
4:00
Speaker 2: now too, you know, not to constantly torture ourselves thinking
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Speaker 2: about when is quarantine going to be over? When is
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Speaker 2: normal life going to return again? Because I honestly think
4:13
Speaker 2: the world is probably going to change after this. I
4:15
Speaker 2: don't think we'll ever go back to the same world
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Speaker 2: that existed before this quarantine came about. Also, I should
4:26
Speaker 2: probably say for me in prison, you know, really what
4:30
Speaker 2: it came down to for me was having to create
4:34
Speaker 2: a life for myself in that environment. So I didn't
4:37
Speaker 2: drive myself insane constantly wondering when is this going to
4:41
Speaker 2: be over? Am I ever going to get out? Are
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Speaker 2: these people going to eventually kill me? How is this
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Speaker 2: situation going to end? My saving grace in there was
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Speaker 2: that I was able to create a life, and I
4:54
Speaker 2: think a huge part of that comes from giving yourself
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Speaker 2: something to focus on other than you troubles. If you
5:01
Speaker 2: constantly take in media that's telling you things that's making
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Speaker 2: you scared, and that's true whether it's talking about the
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Speaker 2: disease that's going on right now, the pandemic that's going on,
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Speaker 2: or whether it's you know, your possible upcoming execution date.
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Speaker 2: You can't sit around dwelling on that stuff or you
5:19
Speaker 2: are going to stew in fear and misery. You have
5:24
Speaker 2: to give yourself other things to look at and focus on.
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Speaker 2: You have to create a world for yourself and a
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Speaker 2: life for yourself, and for me in prison, you know,
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Speaker 2: part of it was also structuring my days, and that's
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Speaker 2: one of the things I've tried to share with people
5:41
Speaker 2: out here is, you know, we've all heard that it's
5:44
Speaker 2: helpful to stay on a schedule, but a lot of
5:46
Speaker 2: people that's an abstract concept or an abstract theory. We're like, okay,
5:50
Speaker 2: stay on a schedule, but what sort of schedule? What
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Speaker 2: does a schedule mean? It helps if you give people,
5:55
Speaker 2: like really concrete things that they can do for me.
5:58
Speaker 2: Those things in prison and out here were things that
6:04
Speaker 2: don't sound amazing but have tremendous impacts on your psyche,
6:09
Speaker 2: on the way you view the world, for example, cleaning.
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Speaker 2: You know, somebody, whenever I first got to prison told
6:14
Speaker 2: me the very first person I ever talked to. He said,
6:17
Speaker 2: you can either sit in the cell and stagnate and
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Speaker 2: go insane like most of the people here, or you
6:23
Speaker 2: can choose to turn your cell into a monastery, keep working,
6:27
Speaker 2: keep developing. That's what I chose to do, just because,
6:31
Speaker 2: you know, when I looked at the other lives around
6:33
Speaker 2: me in that environment, to be quite honest, it kind
6:35
Speaker 2: of horrified me to see, you know, people who were
6:40
Speaker 2: the same after they had been in prison for fifteen
6:43
Speaker 2: or twenty years, that they were whenever they walked in
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Speaker 2: the door. And I thought, I do not want to
6:49
Speaker 2: fall into that trap. So I set myself a schedule
6:53
Speaker 2: to create time. You know, there's no time in prison.
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Speaker 2: You have no appointments to keep or places to go
6:59
Speaker 2: or anything like that. So I tried, to the best
7:03
Speaker 2: of my ability to live my life exactly the way
7:05
Speaker 2: I would if I were in a monastery of my
7:08
Speaker 2: own free will. Some of those things included cleaning, you know,
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Speaker 2: like getting down on your hands and knees and scrubbing
7:15
Speaker 2: the floor, scrubbing.
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Speaker 3: The walls out here.
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Speaker 2: That's really helpful because not only does it, you know,
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Speaker 2: maintain a schedule, give you something to do, something productive
7:24
Speaker 2: and constructive. To focus on. But it's also helpful for
7:27
Speaker 2: battling the pandemic, the virus that's going on right now,
7:30
Speaker 2: for keeping yourself and your family clean. Another thing in
7:32
Speaker 2: there is exercise. You know, for me, I was in
7:36
Speaker 2: a tiny cell. I had just enough space to do
7:39
Speaker 2: push up, sit ups, jumping jacks. Once I'm out here. Now,
7:43
Speaker 2: what I've been doing for exercise is I put on
7:45
Speaker 2: a backpack full of weights. And I live in a
7:47
Speaker 2: three story building, so I run up and down the
7:49
Speaker 2: stairs quite a few times a day with a backpack
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Speaker 2: full of weights on. You know, you don't have to
7:54
Speaker 2: go out and go to the gym, but if you
7:56
Speaker 2: keep your body in shape or you know, in reasonable
8:00
Speaker 2: working condition, that is going to go a long way
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Speaker 2: towards mental health as well. If you start feeling bad physically,
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Speaker 2: you're going to start feeling bad mentally and emotionally too eventually.
8:13
Speaker 2: So just things like cleaning, things like exercise.
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Speaker 3: Reading.
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Speaker 2: You know, a lot of people will say I hate
8:19
Speaker 2: to read. I always say there is no such thing
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Speaker 2: as a person who hates to read. There are only
8:24
Speaker 2: people who have not found books that they love, yet
8:27
Speaker 2: they were forced.
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Speaker 3: To read things that maybe they.
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Speaker 2: Didn't like even if you think that you don't like
8:32
Speaker 2: to read, start looking for books about subjects that may
8:35
Speaker 2: interest you and start delving into those. There's a million
8:39
Speaker 2: little things you can do to keep your mind occupied
8:42
Speaker 2: that are productive and constructive, and that'll prevent you from
8:46
Speaker 2: degenerating into this constant state of fear.
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Speaker 1: I'm so glad you brought up exercise among all the
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Speaker 1: other things. And remember, there are a lot of assets
8:54
Speaker 1: that we can all find online. Yes, since my friend
8:57
Speaker 1: Adam Masate has a gym class that he does online
9:00
Speaker 1: Adam Rossante Rosa and te He has a YouTube channel
9:04
Speaker 1: and he does the thing for kids as well as adults,
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Speaker 1: but he has a special thing for kids to keep
9:08
Speaker 1: them motivated and help prevent them from going stir crazy
9:12
Speaker 1: in the house. So you can find these things and
9:15
Speaker 1: they're free. There are exercise routines you can do with
9:18
Speaker 1: your own body weight that you don't need to go
9:20
Speaker 1: to a gym. So, you know, I have so many
9:23
Speaker 1: other questions for you, Damien. You know, it's really interesting
9:27
Speaker 1: to me the dichotomy between what you endured and what
9:30
Speaker 1: others are enduring now. And you talk about how you
9:33
Speaker 1: had to sort of stay focused on the present you know,
9:36
Speaker 1: you had nothing to look forward to after all, whatsoever,
9:40
Speaker 1: except more of the same misery and then your own death.
9:43
Speaker 1: So for people out here, it's a very different scenario
9:47
Speaker 1: because they're looking forward to going back to their routine,
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Speaker 1: whatever that might be, their job, their school, their daily life.
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Speaker 1: I mean, can you give advice to us so all
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Speaker 1: of us out here, or does the same advice apply?
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Speaker 2: I honestly think it's probably the same advice. You know,
10:06
Speaker 2: I'm looking back at it, I understand why most people
10:09
Speaker 2: would think that that's how my life was in there,
10:13
Speaker 2: But honestly, there were entire weeks would pass when I
10:16
Speaker 2: wasn't even thinking about the fact that I was in prison.
10:19
Speaker 2: It didn't even register to me anymore because I was
10:21
Speaker 2: so involved in what I was doing, and either what
10:26
Speaker 2: I was creating through various artworks or through my own
10:30
Speaker 2: spiritual and meditation practices. I was experiencing tremendous amounts of
10:34
Speaker 2: growth that excited me, made me happy, gave me something to.
10:38
Speaker 3: Look forward to.
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Speaker 2: I was always, you know, excited about, well, what's going
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Speaker 2: to come next. The outside world probably wouldn't see any
10:46
Speaker 2: of those things because they were all internal things. It
10:50
Speaker 2: reminds me of One of the quotes that I always
10:54
Speaker 2: bring up is when Timothy Leary was in prison at
10:57
Speaker 2: one point. Timothy Leary was a guy who did all
10:59
Speaker 2: of the LSD experiments, and at one point they put
11:03
Speaker 2: him in a federal prison and Ramdas went to visit him,
11:07
Speaker 2: and Ramdas tells him, we came up with a plan
11:11
Speaker 2: a way that we're going to break you out of here.
11:13
Speaker 2: And Timothy Leary says, no, you can't do that. I've
11:16
Speaker 2: got too much work to do. That's how I started
11:19
Speaker 2: to feel, probably, I would say, within the last couple
11:22
Speaker 2: of years that I was in prison. You know, I
11:25
Speaker 2: wasn't thinking about an execution date or what the state
11:29
Speaker 2: was doing, or just kind of faded away for me.
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Speaker 2: I think whenever you find what you're supposed to be
11:37
Speaker 2: doing in life, it kind of consumes you. It becomes
11:41
Speaker 2: your life's work. Your life's work becomes your life. I
11:45
Speaker 2: discovered what my life's work was really early. Fortunately for me,
11:49
Speaker 2: the more I poured myself into that, the less I
11:53
Speaker 2: cared about what was going on around me externally.
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Speaker 1: And you were deprived of all the creature comforts. And
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Speaker 1: I think a lot of people people are experiencing different
12:01
Speaker 1: degrees of that too. You know, so many people are
12:05
Speaker 1: going through food shortages, they also may be experiencing, you know,
12:09
Speaker 1: even lack of basic necessities like toilet paper. You hear
12:13
Speaker 1: about outages everywhere, and you know, I sense it for
12:17
Speaker 1: a lot of people, there's less joy in their day
12:19
Speaker 1: to day life. I feel in conversations I have, there's
12:23
Speaker 1: less joking going on. There's less levity in general. There's
12:27
Speaker 1: this feeling of just heaviness, you know, in New York
12:31
Speaker 1: where we are, and I've lost two friends to this
12:33
Speaker 1: virus already, and everyone seems like they know somebody who's gone.
12:40
Speaker 1: People are hearing sirens in the middle of the night,
12:42
Speaker 1: ambulance is racing people to the hospital, and it feels
12:45
Speaker 1: like there's a collective heaviness. And Damian, I've heard you
12:50
Speaker 1: tell one particular story about a crazy experience you had
12:53
Speaker 1: on death Row that allowed you to see the levity
12:56
Speaker 1: through the almost absolute darkness, you know, the one with
13:00
Speaker 1: the guy who had murdered somebody with a can of corn.
13:03
Speaker 1: He actually turned I remember you saying he turned a
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Speaker 1: vegetable into a deadly weapon. Can you tell that story?
13:09
Speaker 3: Uh, there was a.
13:10
Speaker 2: Guy that was in the cell next to me at
13:12
Speaker 2: one point for a couple of years, and this guy
13:14
Speaker 2: was pretty pretty severely schizophrenic. You know, he would come
13:19
Speaker 2: in and out of reality a lot. There were times
13:21
Speaker 2: when you could talk to him and he would be
13:23
Speaker 2: completely coherent. Other times you would talk to him and
13:27
Speaker 2: nothing that came out of his mouth would be connected
13:29
Speaker 2: to reality in any way whatsoever. But there was a time,
13:33
Speaker 2: you know, a lot of times in the prison you
13:34
Speaker 2: would have the sewage would back up, and whenever that
13:37
Speaker 2: would happen, you'd end up standing in like ankle deep sewage,
13:41
Speaker 2: sometimes for a couple of days at a time while
13:43
Speaker 2: they had to try to fix the system and clean
13:46
Speaker 2: everything up that was going on. One time, you know,
13:50
Speaker 2: the sewage had backed up. Everybody's miserable. And whenever that happens,
13:54
Speaker 2: you know, to kind of understand the full impact of
13:57
Speaker 2: what's going on, You're standing in ankle deep raw sewage
14:01
Speaker 2: while you try to eat. You are holding your tray
14:04
Speaker 2: in your hand, standing with your feet in shit while
14:09
Speaker 2: you try to eat. I can't even begin to articulate
14:13
Speaker 2: like the levels of misery that you can experience in
14:17
Speaker 2: an environment like that. But this guy in the cell
14:20
Speaker 2: next to me, the schizophrenic guy he had to actually
14:23
Speaker 2: beat someone to death with a can of corn when
14:26
Speaker 2: he was on the street. We're standing there in this
14:28
Speaker 2: ankle deep sewage, and he starts singing that Lenyard skinnerd song?
14:32
Speaker 3: Can you smell that smell? And whenever he did, I just,
14:36
Speaker 3: you know, just the.
14:37
Speaker 2: Absurdity and the outrageousness of the situation that I was
14:41
Speaker 2: in kind of hit me really hard all at once,
14:44
Speaker 2: and I couldn't stop laughing. And I asked the guy,
14:46
Speaker 2: I said, you know, I understand, Okay, we're in this
14:49
Speaker 2: hellish environment. These people are trying to kill us. But
14:52
Speaker 2: at the same time, don't you still have moments of fun?
14:56
Speaker 2: Aren't there still times when you're enjoying your life? And
15:00
Speaker 2: he looks at me and says, hell, no, what the
15:03
Speaker 2: fuck is wrong with you that you would even ask
15:05
Speaker 2: me something like that. But for me, I kind of
15:07
Speaker 2: I never really lost that. Thankfully, there were still I
15:11
Speaker 2: was still always able to find things that I enjoyed
15:13
Speaker 2: in there. But I mean, I know exactly what you're
15:16
Speaker 2: talking about out here, because you can, you know, in
15:18
Speaker 2: New York. I have never felt New York like this before.
15:22
Speaker 2: The only way that I can even come close to
15:24
Speaker 2: describing what it's like. You know, when we hear about
15:27
Speaker 2: quarantine or lockdown or what's the other word they're calling
15:30
Speaker 2: it self isolation. You know, a lot of times in
15:35
Speaker 2: other states, people live in houses, they have yards, they
15:39
Speaker 2: have cars that they can drive somewhere and go on
15:42
Speaker 2: a hike. Most people in New York have none of that.
15:45
Speaker 2: You know, most people in New York don't even have
15:46
Speaker 2: a car unless they're incredibly wealthy. So it's not like
15:49
Speaker 2: they can escape all of this. And the only way
15:52
Speaker 2: I can describe the environment here right now is it
15:56
Speaker 2: feels the way the city does when you're in the
15:59
Speaker 2: middle of a bullet lizard in the dead of winter
16:02
Speaker 2: and everything comes to a halt, everything comes to a standstill.
16:07
Speaker 3: But this is even.
16:10
Speaker 2: More profound than that. It's like we are in the
16:12
Speaker 2: center of a hurricane that we can't even see, can't
16:16
Speaker 2: even feel, but you can something in you still registers
16:21
Speaker 2: the fact that something is going on around you. New York,
16:26
Speaker 2: I think is an incredibly special place just because it's
16:32
Speaker 2: not just a place that people here live. It's like
16:35
Speaker 2: a character in our lives.
16:37
Speaker 1: You know.
16:37
Speaker 2: We deal with the city the way we would deal
16:41
Speaker 2: with a person. That's how present it is in our lives.
16:45
Speaker 2: It's almost like a force of nature, or like a
16:49
Speaker 2: goddess made of concrete and collisions of energy and steal.
16:54
Speaker 2: That's happening all the time, and everybody here has a
16:57
Speaker 2: kind of symbiotic relationship with the city. Whenever the city
17:02
Speaker 2: grinds down, whenever it's hurting, whenever the city's heart breaks,
17:05
Speaker 2: it's like everybody else that lives here our heart breaks.
17:09
Speaker 3: At the same time.
17:11
Speaker 2: Whatever the city is experiencing, it's almost like every individual
17:15
Speaker 2: within the city is experiencing on a smaller, microcosmic level.
17:21
Speaker 2: So whenever the city shuts down, it's like our lives
17:23
Speaker 2: shut down. I do still believe with all my heart
17:29
Speaker 2: that somehow, some way, something good will come out of
17:32
Speaker 2: all of this.
17:33
Speaker 3: I don't know what it is.
17:34
Speaker 2: I don't know when it will be or how it'll
17:36
Speaker 2: take shape, but I really do believe that as hard
17:40
Speaker 2: as this has been, something amazing will still come out
17:43
Speaker 2: of it in some way.
17:53
Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you, Damien. You mentioned that you
17:56
Speaker 1: feel like we're never going to return to the same
17:59
Speaker 1: idea normal and paraphrasing what you said, yea more eloquently
18:03
Speaker 1: than that. But what will be the differences in your view?
18:06
Speaker 3: I honestly I can't see it.
18:09
Speaker 2: You know too, We're too far away from the world
18:12
Speaker 2: that we're all going to re enter again right now.
18:15
Speaker 2: There's still a lot of stuff, a lot of time
18:18
Speaker 2: that has to pass.
18:19
Speaker 3: But you know, a lot of.
18:20
Speaker 2: Times when we think of things like destruction, we tend
18:24
Speaker 2: to equate it with evil in some way. I think
18:27
Speaker 2: that is an entirely human concept. I don't think the
18:31
Speaker 2: universe views things in black and white, good and evil.
18:35
Speaker 2: It views things as all things are sort of necessary
18:38
Speaker 2: in order to continue the act of creation, including destruction.
18:43
Speaker 2: There's an old man that lives next door to me.
18:45
Speaker 2: He's an old blind man, and he sits out on
18:47
Speaker 2: his stairs every day and listens to audiobooks so he
18:50
Speaker 2: can feel the sun on his face.
18:52
Speaker 3: And one day he said, I can't even know.
18:55
Speaker 2: This was a couple of years ago, so I can't
18:56
Speaker 2: even remember what started the conversation, but he was talking
18:59
Speaker 2: about the word God, and he said it stands for generate,
19:03
Speaker 2: order and destroy, because those are the three things that
19:08
Speaker 2: the universe does. Those are the three stages we go
19:11
Speaker 2: through the universe. Generates forms, and then it orders them,
19:16
Speaker 2: puts them in specific orders. But as soon as those
19:20
Speaker 2: orders start to stagnate, as soon as growth is no
19:23
Speaker 2: longer possible, then it's absolutely necessary for it to introduce
19:28
Speaker 2: destruction into that environment and tear it down so that
19:32
Speaker 2: a new round of generation and creation can start. And
19:36
Speaker 2: I honestly think that's kind of where we're at in
19:38
Speaker 2: the world right now.
19:39
Speaker 3: I think we are in this.
19:41
Speaker 2: In alchemy, they call it the calcination phase, where everything
19:45
Speaker 2: kind of gets destroyed, reduced, turned to ash, and that
19:49
Speaker 2: has to happen sometimes before we can start to rebuild.
19:52
Speaker 2: You know, if you're going to build a building, you
19:54
Speaker 2: have to tear the old building on that site down
19:56
Speaker 2: before you can build a new one.
19:58
Speaker 3: I think in a lot of ways.
20:01
Speaker 2: Our lives will change, even if it's just people being
20:05
Speaker 2: more prepared for something like this to come in the future.
20:09
Speaker 2: But I really do think this is going to have
20:12
Speaker 2: an impact on our psychees, on our collective psyche, on
20:16
Speaker 2: our collective consciousness, maybe even to the point where we
20:19
Speaker 2: come out of this and we're more thankful and more
20:22
Speaker 2: grateful for the things that we do have because we've
20:24
Speaker 2: seen what it's like whenever they disappear. So maybe this
20:27
Speaker 2: just turns us into a more appreciative, grateful, unified society
20:34
Speaker 2: or culture. Like I said, I don't know what shape
20:37
Speaker 2: it will take, but I do have faith that in
20:42
Speaker 2: some way something good will come of it.
20:46
Speaker 1: That's a great sort of affirmation. It's a very interesting
20:50
Speaker 1: time in so many ways. I think even relationships are
20:54
Speaker 1: being developed and probably torn down, probably tested right at
21:01
Speaker 1: a greater rate than normal. I think that there is
21:05
Speaker 1: a real reset happening across the board. I did want
21:11
Speaker 1: to ask you a Damien space, right, So, by and large, well,
21:16
Speaker 1: there's two different aspects of this, and I'm interested in
21:19
Speaker 1: your take on both. One is, you have people who
21:23
Speaker 1: are listening who are now confined to a relatively small space,
21:28
Speaker 1: a small apartment with quite a few people possibly in it,
21:32
Speaker 1: maybe extended family. And you have other people who are alone,
21:38
Speaker 1: like really alone for the first time, where they can't
21:40
Speaker 1: have visitors and they can't have even family members come.
21:45
Speaker 1: Some of them are elderly. What advice can you give them?
21:51
Speaker 1: As far as that you know, I'm sure it must
21:54
Speaker 1: feel like the walls are closing in on people.
21:58
Speaker 2: I would say the best advice that I could give
22:02
Speaker 2: about that would be, to the best of your ability,
22:06
Speaker 2: surround yourself with things that make you look up, things
22:10
Speaker 2: that inspire you, things that make you feel good. And
22:14
Speaker 2: it could be anything from hanging photos on your wall
22:17
Speaker 2: that bring back good memories to like you were saying, wallago.
22:21
Speaker 2: You've got a lot of people out there right now
22:23
Speaker 2: offering all sorts of amazing stuff on the Internet, and
22:26
Speaker 2: a lot of it is absolutely free. You know. Just
22:29
Speaker 2: for example, here in New York, the ninety second Street
22:32
Speaker 2: YMCA is doing this thing where for five dollars you
22:35
Speaker 2: can go onto their website and they are broadcasting symphony
22:39
Speaker 2: orchestras here throughout the city playing concerts, and you can
22:43
Speaker 2: hear these amazing symphonies and concerts by you know, Divorjak
22:49
Speaker 2: or Beethoven or whoever it is for five dollars. You know,
22:53
Speaker 2: when you're looking at something like that, most of the time,
22:58
Speaker 2: your troubles and your hardships and your problems are going
23:00
Speaker 2: to be the last thing on your mind when you
23:02
Speaker 2: are looking into the face of something that you find beautiful.
23:07
Speaker 2: If you keep your eyes focused on things that are
23:10
Speaker 2: beautiful and meaningful and rich and do something for you personally,
23:17
Speaker 2: you're feeding yourself. That's that's literally spiritual sustenance. You are
23:22
Speaker 2: feeding your soul. And the more you feed your soul,
23:25
Speaker 2: no matter what the environment is like, the better you're
23:28
Speaker 2: going to come out of it. So I would say,
23:30
Speaker 2: if you are at home, like you were saying earlier,
23:33
Speaker 2: use the internet. You know, there are people out there
23:36
Speaker 2: right now giving you know, free yoga classes, courses on
23:40
Speaker 2: everything from astrology to tarot to how to cut your
23:45
Speaker 2: own hair, you know, which is a thing that a
23:47
Speaker 2: lot of people are dealing with. Just because there are
23:48
Speaker 2: no barber shops, no beauty salons, you can learn all
23:53
Speaker 2: sorts of amazing things, or immerse yourself in beautiful, rich environments,
24:01
Speaker 2: even if you're trapped in one room.
24:05
Speaker 1: Is there a particular book or even a particular piece
24:11
Speaker 1: of music or any other creative work I should say
24:15
Speaker 1: that really inspired you and that you think may help
24:19
Speaker 1: to inspire other people as they live through this.
24:22
Speaker 2: Maybe inspire isn't the word, but I actually I think
24:25
Speaker 2: it kind of is. But you'll see why whenever I
24:28
Speaker 2: say this that I hesitated for a minute when I
24:31
Speaker 2: use that word, just because whenever we say the word inspire,
24:34
Speaker 2: we tend to think it has to be something serious,
24:37
Speaker 2: you know, something where there's no laughter involved, where you know,
24:41
Speaker 2: almost like going to church or something. For me, one
24:44
Speaker 2: of the things that inspire me, I have been going
24:46
Speaker 2: back and rewatching old reruns of one of my favorite
24:51
Speaker 2: TV shows of all time. It was what this show
24:53
Speaker 2: called My Name Is Earl with Jason Lee, and it's
24:56
Speaker 2: about this guy who made a list of every bad
25:00
Speaker 2: thing he had ever done to it in his life,
25:02
Speaker 2: to anyone, and decided he's going to go down this
25:05
Speaker 2: list and make whatever he had done right to whoever
25:10
Speaker 2: he had wronged.
25:11
Speaker 3: And it's one of those things that I will sit
25:13
Speaker 3: there and.
25:14
Speaker 2: Watch this show and just laugh out loud for half
25:18
Speaker 2: an hour at a time. And whenever I'm watching this
25:20
Speaker 2: and I'm laughing at it and I'm enjoying myself and
25:23
Speaker 2: enjoying my life, I'm not thinking about my hardships. Somebody
25:30
Speaker 2: told me one time that, yes, you have to dedicate
25:32
Speaker 2: yourself to development and growth and all these sorts of things,
25:37
Speaker 2: but at the same time, you can't lose the ability
25:40
Speaker 2: to appreciate a good joke, because humor is a big
25:45
Speaker 2: part of what makes life worth living. Find something that
25:49
Speaker 2: makes you laugh and maybe watch that or listen to
25:53
Speaker 2: that or read that.
25:55
Speaker 1: Right, there's so much great comedy online. Yes, well, I mean,
25:58
Speaker 1: I know, I love Lewis Black and Ye f Ross
26:00
Speaker 1: is one of my favorite comics, and you know, there's
26:03
Speaker 1: so many wonderful comedians. So yeah, that's a great idea,
26:07
Speaker 1: and I'm going to watch my Name Is There all.
26:09
Speaker 1: That's an amazing plug. I'm excited to actually tune into
26:11
Speaker 1: that tonight because I'm watching too many documentaries and too
26:14
Speaker 1: much heavy stuff and I feel like I can use
26:16
Speaker 1: that escape too, So thanks for the recommendation.
26:20
Speaker 4: And of course there's always you know, curb your enthusiasms
26:23
Speaker 4: sort of my default when I really need, when I
26:27
Speaker 4: need something ridiculous to turn to, it's a it's that's
26:30
Speaker 4: that's an easy h an easy escape.
26:33
Speaker 1: JB's movement that every time. And so there's uh Susy
26:37
Speaker 1: Esmond every time she opens her valve it makes me laughing. Well, Damien, listen,
26:49
Speaker 1: I I can say that I miss you guys. I'm
26:52
Speaker 1: looking forward when this is done to going out for
26:55
Speaker 1: one of our our wonderful dinners that we have time
26:58
Speaker 1: to time. And please please give a big hug to
27:02
Speaker 1: your wonderful wife Lorie for me. And now, you know,
27:08
Speaker 1: I think all that's left here is for me to
27:11
Speaker 1: first of all, thank you again for inspiring me and
27:14
Speaker 1: all of us on a daily basis, and particularly for
27:18
Speaker 1: sharing your you know, your perspective with our audience, which
27:24
Speaker 1: I think is going to really have a wonderful impact
27:27
Speaker 1: on a lot of people. And then, you know, this
27:32
Speaker 1: is always the part of the show that I enjoyed
27:34
Speaker 1: the most, which is the part where I get to
27:35
Speaker 1: actually just turn my mic off and kick back and
27:40
Speaker 1: close my eyes and listen to whatever you have to
27:43
Speaker 1: say that you haven't said already. So to close out
27:46
Speaker 1: this episode, thanks again, Damien. And now words of wisdom,
27:51
Speaker 1: Damien Echols, the floor is yours.
27:54
Speaker 2: I'm not sure how much these qualify as words of wisdom,
27:59
Speaker 2: but I guess what I really just want to say
28:01
Speaker 2: to everyone who's going through quarantine right now, who is
28:04
Speaker 2: in self isolation, is thank you for doing this. I, myself,
28:10
Speaker 2: as well as many many other people, fall into the
28:13
Speaker 2: category that they call high risk. You know, I spent
28:16
Speaker 2: almost twenty years in prison. I did not have adequate nutrition,
28:21
Speaker 2: no sunlight, no fresh air. I was breathing in tear
28:24
Speaker 2: gas for almost twenty years, and it caused a lot
28:28
Speaker 2: of devastating and lingering effects to my respiratory system. So
28:35
Speaker 2: I'm just really appreciative for how serious everyone is taking
28:39
Speaker 2: this and how everyone is kind of battening down the
28:42
Speaker 2: hatches and dealing with it even when they don't.
28:44
Speaker 3: Want to, because you are, whether you know it or not.
28:48
Speaker 2: You know, when we think of saving people's lives, we
28:50
Speaker 2: tend to think of these big, heroic scenarios. Sometimes they're
28:54
Speaker 2: not like that at all. Sometimes you can save lives
28:57
Speaker 2: by just doing a tiny, tiny thing like staying home
29:01
Speaker 2: and watching reruns of your favorite comedy and trying to
29:05
Speaker 2: enjoy yourself a little bit. So thank you, Thank everyone
29:09
Speaker 2: listening to this so much for doing whatever you can
29:12
Speaker 2: to save lives.
29:13
Speaker 3: Mine included.
29:18
Speaker 1: This episode was so it was such an amazing experience
29:22
Speaker 1: for me. Listening to Damien, Well, I could listen to
29:25
Speaker 1: Damien for hours anytime, because he's just such a he's
29:30
Speaker 1: such a deep thinker, he's such an eloquent guy, he's
29:34
Speaker 1: such a strong you know, it's just sort of ethereal
29:38
Speaker 1: presence and his perspective on how to manage this bizarre
29:47
Speaker 1: new reality that we're in It affected me in ways
29:51
Speaker 1: both deep and also very in a very lighthearted way
29:56
Speaker 1: as well. I mean, he gave me, I believe it
29:58
Speaker 1: or not, he gave me a TV show to watch
30:00
Speaker 1: that I just started watching I've never heard of before,
30:02
Speaker 1: that's been making me laugh out loud. And he gave
30:06
Speaker 1: me I can only call it a gift. He gave
30:11
Speaker 1: me a gift of gratitude in my attitude and of
30:19
Speaker 1: just really thinking of this whole situation in a much
30:23
Speaker 1: different way. We don't have to live through this. We
30:27
Speaker 1: get to live through this. We don't need to be
30:31
Speaker 1: confined by what we're experiencing. We don't need to be
30:34
Speaker 1: defined by what we're experiencing. He's not He's able to
30:39
Speaker 1: transcend this, just as he was able to transcend the
30:45
Speaker 1: tiny environment that he lived in the cold, the heat,
30:50
Speaker 1: the loneliness, the frustration, the awful food, the fact that
30:55
Speaker 1: he could stretch his arms out and touch both sides
30:57
Speaker 1: of his cell, and he was able to, in that environment,
31:02
Speaker 1: take himself out and live a life that was rich. Somehow,
31:08
Speaker 1: I know, it seems like it doesn't make sense, but
31:10
Speaker 1: it's true. He was able to live a full life
31:14
Speaker 1: in that tiny cell with no Internet and no TV,
31:17
Speaker 1: and no refrigerator and no creature comforts whatsoever. He had
31:23
Speaker 1: nothing but his own mind and heart and his will
31:28
Speaker 1: to live and survive and more and to persevere and
31:31
Speaker 1: to grow. He found ways to grow. He didn't have YouTube,
31:37
Speaker 1: he didn't have Google, he didn't have Netflix, he had nothing.
31:41
Speaker 1: But somehow he transcended, and he's now transcending again. And
31:49
Speaker 1: the way that he's doing it, obviously is informed by
31:52
Speaker 1: his life experience, which is an experience that is probably
31:56
Speaker 1: impossible for any of us to comprehend that haven't actually
31:59
Speaker 1: been through it, and very few have been through the
32:02
Speaker 1: extreme deprivation and torture that he's been through. So if
32:08
Speaker 1: he can do it, we can do it. I guess
32:10
Speaker 1: the answer is we need to be grateful for your life,
32:13
Speaker 1: for the people around you, for the roof over your head,
32:16
Speaker 1: and when the dust settles and the madness slows, we
32:19
Speaker 1: can meet the outside world again with new skills, new purpose,
32:24
Speaker 1: and a renewed appreciation for all of it, especially for
32:28
Speaker 1: all of those not in isolation. Those are the real heroes,
32:32
Speaker 1: the people who are fighting this thing head on. Our doctors,
32:35
Speaker 1: our nurses, all the healthcare providers, our garbage men, our
32:39
Speaker 1: grocery store workers, people doing deliveries, the mailman, people keeping
32:44
Speaker 1: things clean, and of course are first responders in the meantime.
32:49
Speaker 1: I hope you've been enjoying Laura and I write Receieve
32:52
Speaker 1: Drisen and their eye opening accounts of false confessions. I'll
32:56
Speaker 1: be returning with the new season of Wrongful Conviction with
32:58
Speaker 1: Jason Floman May next week. We're talking to one of
33:02
Speaker 1: my favorite human beings, my little sister, Amanda Knox. So
33:05
Speaker 1: come back for another new perspective on living in the
33:10
Speaker 1: age of COVID. Don't forget to give us a fantastic review.
33:15
Speaker 3: Wherever you get your podcasts, it really helps.
33:18
Speaker 1: And I'm a proud donor to the Innocence Project, and
33:21
Speaker 1: I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very
33:24
Speaker 1: important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go
33:28
Speaker 1: to Innocenceproject dot org to learn how to donate and
33:31
Speaker 1: get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor
33:34
Speaker 1: Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in the show is
33:37
Speaker 1: by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure
33:41
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Speaker 1: Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm
33:48
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Speaker 1: with Signal Company Number one