Latest / Unfolding: a circular economy podcast / Episode 12 - Shalini Goyal Bhalla
Transcript
- Iain Gulland: Welcome to Unfolding, a podcast which is going to unfold the circular economy. Wayne Hubbard: Exploring the current state of circularity progress and crucially how we can all be part of accelerating the transition and take action to combat linear lock-in, whether we are policymakers, businesses or citizens. Iain Gulland: And in this first series of episodes we will be focusing on the upcoming COP thirty one in Turkey in November, where the circle economy has been highlighted as one of the core focus areas for action in the battle to reduce climate emissions. Wayne Hubbard: and we will be talking to a range of experts with knowledge of the process who will give us their take on how national governments can incorporate circular economy principles into climate mitigation strategies. Iain Gulland: And then myself and Wayne will be going to COP in Turkey to try and put into practice what we've learned or what we've put into action what we've learnt in this series of podcasts and try and influence the COP outcome. Wayne Hubbard: So thanks for tuning in. Why don't you join us on this journey in the road to Antalya? Iain Gulland: I am Ian Golland, former Chief Executive of Zero Way Scotland, as well as past president of ACR Plus, a pan European network of cities and regions promoting more sustainable resource management and the circular economy. Wayne Hubbard: And I'm Wayne Hubbard, former CEO of Reel London and advisor to cities and podcaster now. And together Ian and I have well over a million years in circular economy. At least, at least a million years. Iain Gulland: At least a million years, absolutely. So myself and Wayne are, as you've heard, are going to be talking to a range of exciting guests over the next well, over ten weeks in the run up to COP to understand a little bit more about the COP process, what we could expect, what we should expect by way of agreements or implementation plans for the circular economy specifically, as well as getting into some wider discussions around the circular economy transition. Wayne Hubbard: As ever, there is an opportunity for listeners and viewers to feed in their thoughts and questions as we go along. Please leave a comment, like and subscribe. Send us an email at unfolding at unfoldcc.com. Suggest future guests we might like to include. We're keen for this to be as interactive as possible. Iain Gulland: our guest for this episode is Shalini Doyle Bhalla who is circular economy advisor in India. and you are also the one of the directors for the ICCE, which is the International Council for Circular Economy. So it would be really great to hear a little bit more about that organisation. Sahlini but you're also an author. You've written some books, a couple of books on the circular economy. which I have to admit I haven't read, but I have looked at them. I've kind of looked at them online, what you've been talking about. so so that'll Shalini: Woof! Woof! Woof! Iain Gulland: be interesting to to talk about as well. we're always we're always happy to plug books about the circular economy. so that'll be really interesting as well. So anyway it's Great to have you on board, Shalini. so maybe just to start off, it'd be great to hear a little bit about you, about your roles, various roles in India and beyond. But maybe just a little bit about your own circular journey. How did you, you know, get to where you are now to some extent? just yeah, just to introduce yourself. Over to you. Shalini: Thank you, Iain. First of all, thank you for inviting me to this discussion. think this is a very relevant time for talking circular economy with you on this podcast. To begin with, my journey, I think my journey on this subject started in 2018. when I was working on Zero Waste. That was a project I was doing when I was engaged with Indoor American Center and I was working on a Department of State's project. The idea was to see how schools in New York, the government-sponsored schools in New York would become Zero Waste. And while I was working and working on the key recommendations on that project, I came across this term circular economy for the first time. And the more I explored and read about it, the more I realized that this is something that India or any other emerging economy has been practicing for a long time. So it didn't seem to be a very new term while this term was coming largely from Europe and seemed like a Western concept. But to me, it looked like something that we have been practicing for some time in our lives. And I've seen in our homes it being practiced in daily life. And so I started to think about what's happening in India around this subject, because this was gaining a lot of momentum in US and UK. And I came across hardly anything that could be of origin to India. And that could kind of. make Indians know more about the subject. And so the idea of my first book seeded and I started to write about it, which was largely about what is circular economy? How does it sound like Indian in the Indian context? What would it mean for industry? Because I understood that while the subject is gaining so much importance and it sounded very relevant to the industrial transition that was happening. I thought it will come to India sooner or later. And so I thought it was quite essential to bring in industrial perspective. So my first book talks about six different sectors. And it took a sectoral approach in six different sectors, including the main priorities of India. And so the book was a great success when it started. But at the same time, the COVID hit. And I was still at home when we thought that we should actually start something. So my co-founders along with me, we thought of this council as a think tank and then it became India's first think tank and a premier body working on circular economy. So since then we have never looked back. We work on policy advocacy, we work as a premium think tank and any work that we've done in India became the first of its kind, be it the journal, the research papers, the certified courses. The articles that we wrote were very futuristic for a country like India. But then we've digressed. We've digressed from India to Global South because what we understand is that most of our work is also relevant to other emerging economies. So we work very progressively in the Global South as well. While we appreciate what's happening in Global North, I think there is a huge gap of understanding between the Global North and Global South. And I think executable. things because what is the policies or the practices that happen in North is not something that can be copy-pasted. And that gave the idea, seeded the idea for my second book. The concept of circular design is something very important and my last six years of work clearly shows that circularity should not be at the end of life. Circularity is upstream. Design is important. And that's where The council has been working for the last six years to take the discussion from end of life to upstream, to design, to the industries and we want the policies should also focus accordingly and that's why my second book, it I would say amalgamates the circular design which is a western concept with the Indian ethos. where we are very, very ecologically also connected to the ground. And we say that how do we design anything which would respect earth, which would respect the regeneration of mother earth that we are talking about. And so this concept that I talk about is called Design for Dharat. That's the book's title. It is the Indian framework for transiting to a circular economy. And you will see in the book when you read. It very well connects the Western concept with the emerging economies, local issues, hyper-local issues, and more that to think about more about earth. so designing for Dharah is my next contribution to the Indian economy on this subject. Wayne Hubbard: I'm, really interested in diving into the what you see as the difference between the circular economy movement in the global north and the global south. But I'm just interested in your first book. So this is called the reemerging movement. Is that right? Could you just maybe Shalini: That's right. Wayne Hubbard: just describe, what you meant by that term and how and how relevant you felt that was to India? Shalini: Yeah, so as a word itself, I think that's what made the difference, Vane, because I think, like I said when I was reading about secular economy, it wasn't a new term. It emerged from Europe. But what is secularity? How is it practiced? It's like one of the chapters that I talk about. It's called old wine in new bottle. which is about the Indian practices. Yes, that's the sixth chapter I still remember and the most read chapter of the book. So I'll give you some examples to understand and why I call it re-emerging because if you really look at, I compare the exercise that's done in a gym to the yoga that India practices and how yoga, while it is a wholesome exercise, it is also very ecologically friendly, it does not consume energy, it is the wholesome exercise that you could do and you don't need any equipment. So comparing and I've really literally compared to the greenhouse gas emissions that you save if you do that. The second example I take is sun drying of clothes, so no dryers used for a cloth drying. And how much energy do we save if we are actually not drying the clothes? in a dryer and just putting it on for sun drying. So again, I think some of these practices which are very Indian compared to and also giving it numbers in terms of the carbon footprint explain circularity. So what I wanted to kind of say is that India has and a lot of emerging economies I would continue to say is by the virtue of its sustenance or let's say lesser resources, continue to have a lot of sustainable practices already, which Wayne Hubbard: Yeah. Yeah. Shalini: we are now talking about in the developed economies. But this is already there. Maybe we are forgetting. We have forgotten because with the increase in GDP, with the increase in the spending capability, even people in my own country, in the urban areas, are tending to go more towards these kind of new practices. and fast forgetting the old practices that we had. mean, while yoga is something that Iain Gulland: Thank you. Shalini: a lot of Western people are loving today, a lot of Indians are now using gyms instead. it's an emerging moment for me. I mean, why don't we talk about our past? Why don't we learn from that? And the Indian knowledge system, is itself a very big and very diverse ecosystem, we need to relearn from it. Maybe I'll learn some things and relearn and that's why I call it re-emergent. Iain Gulland: Yeah. I think that's just I could listen to this I could listen Wayne Hubbard: Excellent. Yeah. Iain Gulland: to this all day. I l I love that that that analogy around yoga and the drying of clothes. But that's really interesting because I guess where we were initially coming from, you know, when we were thinking about the global south and global north, maybe the tensions right in the context, you know, and you're right. I mean I d I do think, you know, sometimes the circle economy does feel very European. and obviously, you know, forgive us, we're very much in that in that European bubble. But I was very taken, I was at the Zero Waste event in Turkey in June and I was very taken, I mean obviously it was a global gathering, I was very taken that how unEuropean it was. It was very much you know, the probably the the most voices were from, you know, the global south, Africa, South America, and even and even from the Asian continent as well. And it was very I was very taken by the the the fact that they were asking for something to some extent that was very rooted in their communities, very rooted in a place, you know, and in terms of opportunities for people and addressing, you know, some of the you know you know, poverty and injustices as much as as much as the the environmental challenge, you know, in terms of waste and flow of materials. I was really taken by that. But but one thing probably didn't come out and it's just when you're talking about it is that that almost yeah, some of the practices that we keep talking about are are embedded in your cultures, you know, is Shalini: Yeah. Iain Gulland: already. And it's something, you know, we talk about a lot about can we learn the global north? Can we learn from the global south? Because we don't want we don't want the global south to go through our kind of, you know, waste trajectory of building big facilities and, you know, amassing lots of more waste and then trying to deal with the problems afterwards. how could we jump how could we get how could we leapfrog to some extent that? And it's yeah, it's really interesting listening to the fact that you have these kind of things in your culture already and how can we learn from that? And that that so maybe that's the question because we're thinking about COP thirty one, you know, we were gonna talk about how do we get that ensure that kind of global south voice is kind of l is loud, you know, and pertinent within the kind of dialogue so it's not kinda dominated by, you know, us Europeans. But how do you get that point over the fact that the culture, you know, is much more sympathetic to where we're trying to get to? how do we ensure that that is as much heard in the you know in the corridors of COP thirty one as much as the kind of you know, the Global South challenge? Shalini: I think a very relevant question, Iain, considering that we are very close to the COP. India has been talking about common but differentiated responsibilities. And I think that's the answer. While the emerging economies have very less of the contribution to the greenhouse gas emissions, but At the same time, think that number is increasing and we are completely aware of that and completely aware of our responsibility. But at the same time, adaptation is important. To see how do we learn from each other is important. A lot of times, the dialogue in most of the international conferences are drawn towards the major developing or are driven by, let's say, the developed countries and also because perhaps they have to invest into the climate change itself. obviously the narration of the dialogue is coming more from the north, but I think it would only be relevant to include south as an equal party. to understand what's the right way of going towards it, how do we take that forward and to that extent, I'm very happy to share that ISSEE formed a global South coalition. That coalition was with Latin America, with our African and South-East Asian friends. The idea is to build a common coherence voice where we could stand and say that this is the thing that works in south and this is workable. mean, while we totally appreciate that a lot of projects and lot of futuristic dialogues emerge from the global now, but you need to understand what is relevant and what cannot be replicated to these economies. I think such kind of consortium, such kind of global entities could be the right bodies who could speak at or needs a center stage at international dialogues, including COP31 to bring how, what are the best practices. And I'm sure you will find a lot of best practices here in our country because whenever we see a problem coming, most of the time our SMEs, and I'm talking about medium, small or micro enterprises, have a solution, one or the other solution to those issues. again coming from the age-old practices, the knowledge system that's already existing but maybe forgotten somewhere. So I think it is important to give them a centre stage to say what works for us and then build ecosystem around it, not otherwise which is currently the practice. Wayne Hubbard: I was in Rajasthan about eighteen months ago for a big circular economy event conference there. And I was astounded being, you know, at that time, you know, had my kind of blinkers on and I was very London focused. So I was astounded at the breadth and depth of circular economy interest i in India and the wider kind of Pacific area where that and Japan, I think it was covered in that particular geographical area. So I'm really interested, and Iain and I have been talking to various people and we're trying to kind of figure this out. I'm really interested in the the circular economy as you see it, and and as you see the the emerging economies of the global south, how how how the flavor of circular economy is different. And then also I'm interested, Shilini, in understanding your view on this, I guess this kind of this, I I think it's a it's a very big generalization, but I'm gonna say it anyway, that the global sa the global north could do with, you know, a bit less, maybe a lot less, and the global south could do with a bit more. So, you know, kind of when we're when we're trying to think of the of the balance, that's essentially the problem. And then the politics of that. So I'm interested in and that's a big question, I know, but you know, I'm just interested in kind of thinking about that because the transition, transitioning from that is quite, you know, when start to get your head around that, it it's quite a big geopolitical problem. So anyway, over to you, Shalini. Just let just just leave that with you. Shalini: Sure, sure, Wayne. Thank you, I think a very relevant thing to say and you've said it in crux actually, you've given the answer already. I'll begin with I think 2023 when we were thinking of establishing this Global South Centre and we thought what is circular economy and we were presenting this at the World Circular Economy Forum in Helsinki. Wayne Hubbard: I think I Iain and I were both at that meeting actually, that when you presented that. Iain Gulland: Yeah, yeah, that was in It was in Brussels, wasn't it? Shalini: okay. Wayne Hubbard: In Brussels, yeah, yeah. We were both there. Shalini: Brussels was after Helsinki. Helsinki came first and then Brussels. So I'm glad you were a part of Wayne Hubbard: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, but and Shalini: it. Wayne Hubbard: yeah, we were. We we were at the twenty nineteen, well I was at twenty nineteen in Helsinki, we were both at twenty twenty three and we were both in that room where you presented Shalini: Okay. Wayne Hubbard: the proposal. Shalini: Yeah. And if you remember that proposal, then Wayne, I'm thankful for you to be a part in this room, party to the discussions that happened. What we discussed, Wayne, at that time was what is the difference between the Global North and Global South and why we need this consortium? Because it was very relevant because we were bringing it to the World Circular Economy Forum in Helsinki, talking to the audience, which largely came from Global North, not from Global South. But then a consortium that's formed between the global south and why was it relevant? I think you're asking the same thing. And what I see as a difference, and we need to understand, is the practical difference. And unless we understand this difference, it's very difficult to kind of understand why circular economy is different for global north and south. As you rightly said, global north is more about consumption. And you said it that they could do with a little lesser. So I think the focus on circular economy when we talk about it in global north is more towards consumption driven patterns. So something like Mission Life, which is lifestyle for environment, which very clearly states how can we reduce consumption? How can we say that, okay, I have had enough and maybe one thing lesser could help me will not make much of a difference. is the way towards secularity. Repair something, because I see a very Wayne Hubbard: Yeah, yeah. Shalini: less culture of repair in these economies. And I have a very interesting example that I can come to you later. So hardly any repair systems leads to brand new virgin purchases is something that you need to work. Recycling networks, let's say, is is not that bad. mean, you have quite a few recycling industry, but most of the waste that comes from Europe comes to these emerging economies for recycling. Why not have these models within your economy developed so that there is, you don't have to kind of the waste doesn't have to travel overseas to other countries to manage. So that's, think, the answer for the global non. But when we talk about global south basics. are missing at times. So obviously the consumption would increase, but the point is that it should not follow or copy from what's happening in the West. and most of the manufacturing happens here in these economies. So it is an industrial transition that's needed. So the transition here is not related to the consumer, it's related to the industries, the innovation, the technology. that these industries would be using. So I think the focus here is about production, not consumption. And so it needs to be a hell lot of investment because changing the consumer patterns is not an investment or a financial liability, but changing the production patterns is. Industrial transition would need a lot of investments before we talk about, let's the eco-design. We talk about traceability. We talk about... other institutions and tools that all would need a lot of financing and hand-holding and that's where I think the focus will be in Global South or should be in Global South. So while we preach and there is a lot of discussion, there is a lot of project, there is a lot of movement around this upstream innovation but I would like to question is there a same kind of movement or work around changing the consumption patterns? Perhaps that's a question that I would like to leave with everybody. Are we also looking at changing the consumption patterns of these developed countries while we are looking at this change in the global south? And so I think it is important that we have a unified voice and unified work and we do understand what are the trajectories. The trajectories cannot be similar and are not similar. And they need to be practically different for the two kind of countries where we come from, where you come from and where I come from. It cannot be the same. And lastly, to kind of explain that to you, Wayne, in a very normal, practical way, my brother lives in London. And he was using a mixer grinder, which did not, which stopped working. And I remember him going around London to see if it could be repaired. But he hardly saw anything that was easy to or any place where it was easy to repair. He was about to throw it in, indeed got a new one, but he brought it back to India and it got repaired in peanuts and my mother still uses that Wayne Hubbard: Yeah. Shalini: thing. So you can understand, mean, Wayne Hubbard: Yeah. Shalini: that's the difference, that's the practical difference when you all need to work on. Iain Gulland: Yeah. Wayne Hubbard: Before Iain comes in, just I I know I can say I I recognize now that he wants to come in, but I am I just wanted to say my favorite disincentive for the circular economy in the global enough, certainly in our country, is that it's regarded as investment if you buy new stuff. And we give tax benefits. We give we we give tax breaks if you buy new stuff. But if you repair old stuff, that's taxed. So you pay VAT, you pay value added tax on repair, Shalini: Thanks. Wayne Hubbard: but you get a tax break if you buy new stuff. Now, obviously it's a bit more complicated than that, but in an in a nutshell, that seems to me to be like where we are with our our economy at the moment. It values the purchase of new stuff and therefore increased virgin extraction and de and devalues in the tax system the repairing of existing stuff, which it regards as an overhead, as a burden. So I think that you it's a very apt and well put example, Shalini. Right, sorry, Iain, off you Iain Gulland: No, it's okay. yeah, I think that's his favourite phrase. Iain wants to come in, but before he does anyway. I'll just get in front. Wayne Hubbard: Yeah. It is it is I'll just get him first. Iain Gulland: But I think it I mean I'm gonna i just expand a bit more on what we're talking about, what you're talking about, Shelly, in terms of the global south and global north. I guess what I'm interested in. So we understand, so as I we we in the global north understand the challenges around the circular economy and the opportunities, as you know, Waynes has illustrated one of them. And it's very much about Shalini: you Iain Gulland: the driver, I guess, is that consumption piece. We need to reduce our consumption, the impact of our consumption. And clearly when we get into the story around carbon, there's a carbon story now, people are becoming much more aware of the the carbon of the imported goods, all the imported goods and materials that are coming in. whereas we've done, great work on measuring and and dealing with the the the territorial emissions, people, are beginning to really understand that we need to think about that. the stuff that happens offshore. But I guess I'm interested then in the global south. So what is the key driver then, or the key drivers for the global south to really not you could argue, as you've said, it's already quite circular. There's all there's already degrees of circularity embedded in the kind of culture and the way that the global south operates. But I guess I'm I'm interested then so what's driving places like India to th to To accelerate more circular, or are they? Or or do you think the challenge is that the global south isn't really thinking about the South, sorry, about you know circular economy? I guess I guess I'm trying to understand from a carbon point, maybe not as not as critical as the global north. From a re from a consumption piece, definitely very different, as as we've said. You know, you almost almost want more stuff to some extent. You've talked about it being a much more of a production. opportunity as much as anything else. I guess I'm just trying to understand what if we were going into the global south to try and get them more excited about the circle economy, what is the what's the message that you get over to politicians, industry leaders, even communities to really embrace more circularity. I'm not saying that they're not embracing it. I guess I'm trying to think what could we be doing, what should we be doing, or what are you doing, to try and get more industry to go circular. Shalini: Yes, and I think there is a lot that needs to be done first of all. And when I say that we are more circular, doesn't mean that there is any less scope of improvement. is a lot of scope. Coming to my country and answering what is driving circular economy, I think it is a two-way approach. One is the inside out, where we understand that there are problems within the country that needs to be solved. So for example, waste management, we're completely aware of the fact the kind of landfills India has produced. And most of the Indian urban cities see it as a major disadvantage, also contributing to the greenhouse gas emissions that India accounts for. And while looking at the internal problem, we do also see that we have to meet internationally at the global level our national data mine contributions. And we have to appreciate that and keep a target of reducing that. So one is understanding that while the country is progressing, there is a lot that needs to be done within to improve the conditions that we are going. giving to the or providing to the citizens of the country. So from waste management to better living standard to providing the bare necessities, but bare necessities and growth and infrastructure development, all not using the trajectory that we have been. for last many years or last decades, but I think taking a route which is more sustainable. So while we are developing, we are also very worried of the fact, very aware of the point that... our development has to be sustainable and while we are developing we need to be developing with alternatives that are more sustainable. example, if you are building an airport today and in last year I think India inaugurated around 44 airports you can understand the kind of development we are looking at. So while we Wayne Hubbard: Wow. Shalini: are looking at that kind of development we are aware that these airports need to have using the sustainable aviation fuel, the construction should be sustainable, use as much natural light as possible. And while we continue to grow on the commercial side, we also understand that it has to be circular and sustainable. And so we are completely looking at a development which happens to be too... not only increase the GDP of the country as I say the gross domestic product but also counts for lesser greenhouse gas emissions meanwhile. So while India is developing highways it is also developing entire green belt along with the highways to maintain the ecosystem or having those crossovers for connecting the ecological systems on the highways. While we are developing airports, are also looking at the alternates like the bamboo. So in Goa Hati, if you look at there is a whole airport which is only built by bamboo. So, not Wayne Hubbard: Well. Shalini: used any kind of concrete or cement. you can understand that kind of development, that kind of understanding we are building up. While we are looking at a huge electronic sector, we are also seeing how this electronic sector could also look at reutilizing the material that goes into making of the electronic sector. we are again. putting a lot of investment or technology into extracting the material as well. So material recovery efficiency is something that we are working on together. And I think this is exactly what many other economies are doing like India. Coming to the fact that how do we And India has also taken this responsibility that while we grow, the knowledge is not remaining within our boundaries. We share it with our neighbors. And so our neighborhood policy does kind of a job where we are very happy to exchange the knowledge or provide the knowledge to our global south partners, be it to Africa or to Latin America. thus we have several. So you saw in BRICS as well, we were very happy to kind of. exchange that technology and share that with other countries. on one hand, while we are signing FTAs with EU, we are also kind of looking at technology exchange and knowledge sharing with our neighborhood. So I think that's the kind of understanding that India is developing, and that's the kind of path we look at. Coming to industry, yeah, Iain. Iain Gulland: So can I just Yeah, sorry, no j j jumping in because I guess some of that. quite a lot of what you've just said sounds very transformational, in terms of the Indian context. I guess I'm thinking leadership here. Who is who's leading that? Is that is that the government, the Indian government, is it regional, is it a city level? who that feels like Shalini: you Iain Gulland: it needs a bit of visionering, visioning by somebody to say that's how we're gonna grow the economy. Yeah, absolutely, India's on the up and up. But to do it, as you say, that way, thinking about that that level of sustainability in some of these major infrastructure projects and thinking about almost the systemic the system, the systemic approach feel yeah, feels like so I I'm interested in the leadership. Is that is that is Shalini: you Iain Gulland: this all coming out of the Indian government or is this been led at a kind of local level? Shalini: And this is entirely beginning from the top leadership, I would say. And a lot of credit goes to a couple of things. One is, if you remember, there was a shuffle in India in the political power in 2014. And India announced something called Swachh Bharat Abhiyan. If I were to translate it into English, it is Clean India Program. And this was a national mission. India worked, think the first phase of this program was to remove the open defecation from India. And the second phase started to work on managing the waste in the cities. This is growing further where we are looking at cities becoming more ecologically better, having more data to work on finding solutions that are sustainable. But I think the second point that is that again the same leadership also looked at development as an agent and perhaps that was the agenda with which the government had come was developing India and developing the economy. And so if you really look at the Indian trajectory of development, it has been wonderful in last decade. including the understanding that this development has to be a responsible development. while the development is a major agenda, we completely understand that it has to be done sustainably, it has to be done responsibly, and that has gone along. And so these national missions that began from the top leadership has percolated down as a responsibility through not only the ministries but also the states who are very actively kind of participating and adding to it. So I think now it has become a combined responsibility and everyone wants to own towards it. And if you really look at the Indian states now, there are 28 Indian states, but each state is in itself a whole country if we compare that in size with the European countries. Iain Gulland: Yeah. Yeah. Shalini: There is almost a kind of a competition to kind of do better than the other. And so it's now in a self-driven driving mode where the development or this agenda is taken forward. Wayne Hubbard: That's a really interesting case study, I think, that we'd maybe like to dig into at some point. we're we're kind of coming to the end and the the question that we ask everyone, Shalini, is around COP thirty-one, you know, what if had a magic wand, what would you like to see from a circular economy perspective? What what outcome would you like to see? And just to add as well, this is important because Iain and I are trying to compile a if you like a manifesto of what we've learned during this podcast. So it'd be really good to have your perspective. And then we're also talking to a colleague from Brazil. So we want to try and get the Latin American as well as the Indian and the global south perspective into that manifesto. So yeah, if you could wave your magic wand, what would you what would you ask for? Shalini: When you're asking me for too much huh? Wayne Hubbard: Yeah. Shalini: Okay, so Magic brand, okay I think Looking at again coming to the fact that the cop 31 is more towards practicing rather than policy and it is more focused towards how do we really make it happen in practical terms rather than just the policies or introduction or any kind of a leader which is already happening. I would say that understanding that the paths are different, understanding that an equal say for the emerging economies to say that this could work or this could not work for us and a kind of equal say in practical solutions would be something that I would want. It could be led either by Turkey or any other country but then The point is that we need to have a common understanding of our problem areas and we should not think that one show fits all kind of approach should be changed and the practical solutions that we need to build or we think of building going forward from COP 31 should be more focused on the local issues of each region. rather than trying to deliver something which is, which we think is happening in this part of the world or any other specific part of the world will work for the other countries as well. So understanding, building an understanding and then practicing it on ground with the local partners, having an equal say is something that I would wish for. Iain Gulland: your point Sherine is really well made. 'Cause I do think this is I'm I'm just which we're trying to simplify it to some extent, but quite a lot of the discussions I think have been at COP are around obviously global agreements and all that but it comes down to kinda deployment of technologies to some extent and finance. So it comes down to, how can we get wind turbines up or whatever it is and who pays for them. and you that needs to be done at a global level, I get that. But actually what we've not just what you're saying, but picking up from some some other guests as well about that, this is a slightly different dialogue, because it's not really technic technology specific. this is about how do you apply tactics at the local level. And they're very different in every you know, that's just I mean absurd it's absurd when I say it, because of course it is. It's very different in every locality, whether that's the global south or global north, but even within the global south there will be different context for that. And I just I really I think that's what I'm taking from this. This this is a kinda different dialogue and a different language almost from what I think cops have probably appreciated in the past. It does need and it's not just local people, shouting that, to be involved. This is about how do you apply tactics. And absolutely I think, it has to be done at that local level, regional or otherwise, within their own specifics, whatever the challenges or opportunities are for those localities. Which I think is very different from just suddenly saying, right, we all need to have this piece of kit. How do you fund it, how do you deploy it at whatever location? And that's very simplified, but sometimes that's how it feels when we talk about carbon emissions or or you know, the shift from to electrification. away from fossil fuels. So I think that's a really, really good point you're making. I kinda feel that should be front and centre of our manifesto wait, that Wayne Hubbard: Mm. Iain Gulland: that you know, that kind of yeah, local focus. We need to get the language right, but Wayne Hubbard: Well that's I think that that that's your that's your major point, isn't it? That this will have different applications in different regions. And we don't we probably don't respect that enough. Iain Gulland: Yeah, yeah. And even from a funding Shalini: Yeah, I think, I think. Iain Gulland: point of view it's it'll be challenging, you know, 'cause funders don't I'm not saying you don't like that, but you know, you can tell them just it's the same piece of piece of kit, this is the cost of it, you just need to deploy it in a different part of the world. I'm not you know, so from a funding point of view you can see the challenges on the back of what we're saying as well. But that's that's a challenge, but we can overcome that, you know, by listening to people on the ground. Sorry, I cut across with Sheline. Shalini: Yeah, yeah, and I think I would like to make one last statement again coming from the Indian knowledge system and the expertise and I've written that in my book as well and our leadership and our honorable Prime Minister keep saying that at many many many international conferences Vasudev Kutumbukamb which basically means that earth is a whole family, it's one whole family. Wayne Hubbard: Mm. Shalini: Ultimately, if you really tend to understand that we all are living on a planet that is housed to us, and it is our combined responsibility to make things or to correct what has gone wrong and what we've done wrong to it. So it's not about you or me. It's not about Global North and Global South. It's not about developed and developing countries or least developed economies. It's about how do we. as humanity grow together, learn together and do something which makes Earth a better place for our coming generations. So it should not, I think, it should not be the dialogue dividing us, it should be a dialogue uniting us, dialogue Wayne Hubbard: Thank you. Yes. Shalini: managing and maintaining the fact that we all own the responsibility and we all should be one in owning and making practical use of. our knowledge system. so respect each other, love each other, and collaborate the efforts. think that should be what's needed at the moment. And perhaps you are at COP, you could take this message along as one of the communique from my side. Wayne Hubbard: What lovely what a lovely what a lovely end to the podcast. That was brilliant. I think that's definitely the best one we Yeah. Iain Gulland: I don't Yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll definitely take love. We'll take definitely take love. Wayne Hubbard: Well, I will, I don't know about it, but yeah, I'll take some love. That's brilliant, Shalini. I yeah, that's the best ending we've had yet to a podcast. So thank you for that. And yeah, thanks we've made it work. So thanks for joining us. what's your kind of takeaway from that? Iain Gulland: Yeah, it was. I'd yeah, maybe it's always difficult not to sound a bit patronizing this but the whole yeah, the wisdom bit, the the cultural bit. I know that's what our certainly one of our books is is really focusing on. I think we forget that, we forget that there is a yeah, a lot of what we talk about in terms of behaviours or approaches to circularity as we call it. We've turned into this kind of technical thing, I think. it's Wayne Hubbard: Mm. Iain Gulland: embedded in cultures and even, you could argue in our own cultures here in the UK as much as anywhere else. But it's probably more obvious in some of these global south nations. And we forget that. You know, it's it's that learning thing. Wayne Hubbard: Yeah. Iain Gulland: I I keep saying that, you know, we should be learning from them. We're we're kind of almost Wayne Hubbard: Mm. Iain Gulland: you know, when I say we, you know, we kind of approach this by saying, you know, we need to go and you know, share we need to share what we're doing. But actually we need to be out there. We need to be listening to them. And clearly what she was saying about the the Indian perspective feels like they're trying to do exactly what we're talking about, that leapfrogging to some extent. how do you how do they grow their economy, develop their economy, you know, but in a much more sustainable way and take take specific actions around that. you know, it's not it's not Wayne Hubbard: Yeah, they did seem to be Iain Gulland: either or. It's not either or. We've we still have this kind of tension, don't we? Even in the UK Wayne Hubbard: Yeah. Iain Gulland: most recently it's an it's an either or. You grow the economy, well, yeah, okay. Wayne Hubbard: Yeah. Iain Gulland: the environment, to the side. We'll we'll think about it or we'll try and build that in as much as we can. But actually the real focus is just growth, growth, growth. I d I just Wayne Hubbard: Yeah. Iain Gulland: and and if that's a cultural thing I don't know, but it's yeah, it's just it was really, really heartening to hear and it just yeah, it kind of goes back to that thing that we sometimes sit in our own bubble up up here in the north. And we need to be thinking, you know, differently. We need to be approaching this differently in terms of partnerships and collaborations. Wayne Hubbard: I'm struck by the thing that I've learned over the course of this series is the major thing is you've got carbon emissions, you know, threat to the planet, sixty percent associated with extraction and processing of raw materials. We're moving from fossil fuel to metals and minerals, and that Is you in order to manage that movement, you need a circular economy because you can recycle these materials. How does that apply to the global south? Well, a lot of these materials, these metals and minerals, of course, are located in the global south. Iain Gulland: I'm gonna sell it. Wayne Hubbard: So, you know, that's and now so we're when we say we have to reduce consumption, of course, what we mean is the emissions associated with the extraction of those raw materials. So that that movement to a an economy where those materials are are recycled in the in the economy is a to my mind a rational thing. And the models that help that recirculation is the circular economy. So it's not as if we're losing out by moving to this pattern of of economic activity, but that the linear mindset is, well, we are losing out. We're we're going to expect to have a lower standard of living and we're consuming less. So we've learnt this more nuanced approach. And the the interesting thing that Schlini was saying was the the application of that approach, I think what I take from that will differ locally and regionally. She was also talking about sort of a cultural so there seemed to be some cultural element to what she was saying as well. The the the gym and the yoga I thought was a really Iain Gulland: Okay. Wayne Hubbard: interesting comparison. And then it also strikes me that we have got that, you're right, we've got that own we've got our own version of that. But it's it's kind of I guess post Second World War. It's been wiped out almost entirely. Our, you know, our make no, in quotes, make to amend, our kind of circularity culture. Make to amend is probably the wrong description, but it's be it's been wiped out, hasn't it, by Iain Gulland: Although although I Yeah. Well, maybe the Wayne Hubbard: Bye. Iain Gulland: but the Scots people we're still a bit we don't like wasting stuff. So it's still I think it's still in the Scottish psyche, Just Wayne Hubbard: Quite possibly. Iain Gulland: below the surface, we never w really want to throw anything away. Wayne Hubbard: I, there's this this great book, I don't know, which I read a long time ago, but it was called The Affluent Society. I think it was J.K. Galbraith. but he talks about, which I think is really interesting, is that demand in the new society that he was writing about in the 50s, the economy in the 50s, was was not created by the consumer. It was created by advertising. So this So he was describing what we now call the consumer society, where our needs had primarily been met in in America, in the global north, had primarily been met. And therefore the advertising industry had to create new needs in order to feed the beast. And as a and a as a recovery from the Second World War, we inherited this kind of society, which pre-second world war, I'm pretty sure did not exist in the way that it exists today. Iain Gulland: Think but I think I'm I'm I'm right in saying it actually it's okay, advertising was the mechanism to make it happen, but it was actually because of that increased manufacturing capacity during the war, you know, needed you know, and all the people employed in it, they needed to keep that going. You know, that's where, you know, everybody was making things during the war for for the war effort. And so they had this need to produce more stuff. So the way to do that was exactly that, that kind of designed for obsolescence to make Wayne Hubbard: Yeah. Iain Gulland: to make it more attractive that you needed two of everything and also what you did buy needed to replace much quickly because that then increased the capacity. So it was again, you know, we've talked about this before about it's not so much a consumption challenge as a production challenge. Because we're geared up our economies Wayne Hubbard: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Iain Gulland: are geared up, no matter how we say it, to produce more things, if you know what I mean, more product, because that's the way our economy is certainly in in our world. probably yeah, you're right, since the nineteen fifties. And and that's I'm not saying completely to do with the Second World War, but I think there's a lot to do with that that became the shift and the whole economic This is where we need an economist, a proper economist, or not just you to tell us about that whole yeah, the Wayne Hubbard: Yeah. A proper economist is stop us from Iain Gulland: the the shift in terms of measurement of GDP and all that came in. so yeah, I and and and in a way that goes back to you know Shalini. I mean her book her book talks about Is what did you to say it was the kind of reemerging system, but it's I think she talks about unlearning stuff. So, you know, it's almost like this is not something new, absolutely. You know, fifty, seventy, eighty years ago. We need to unlearn those linear processes, th those linear economic theories, Wayne Hubbard: Hm. Iain Gulland: these linear, you know, even the advertising, all of that. We need to just unlearn that, you know, rather than Wayne Hubbard: Yeah. Iain Gulland: think this is something new that we're trying to create. We're actually just thinking, look, okay, that was all very that was right for a period of time. There was a particular challenge around manufacturing capacity. We needed to to do something about it. You know, we need but right now we have a different challenge and we need to unlearn some of those some of those, yeah, behaviors. Wayne Hubbard: Yeah. Iain Gulland: and go back to you know, I don't hate to say go back to the nineteen fifties, that's not what I'm saying at all 'cause that alienates half the audience or most of the audience. But Wayne Hubbard: We'll cut that bit. Iain Gulland: That's yeah, we'll cut that back. We'll think well what I'm thinking. And that and and it's still embedded, it's still embedded in the global equ in in in many parts of the world. That's what she's saying. Wayne Hubbard: I I my one of my favorite examples is my so my parents were born in the end of the Second World War. Their parents were born kind of between the war years, right? So my grandmother would not buy a television. She rented a TV. Iain Gulland: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Wayne Hubbard: and she didn't want to buy it because she wanted it like fixable and she wanted it repairable. Like my parents would not be seen dead renting a TV. They aspired to owning their own TV. And then the TV repairman during that period of time disappeared completely. You know what I mean? So there's a there's I don't know what I'm trying to say, but there is something about we lost that, you know, rental is now a key I is is regarded as a as a key part of the circular economy. So Radio Rentals, they repaired that TV as part of the service when Iain Gulland: I don't know. Wayne Hubbard: you when you paid your whatever. And that's what my grandmother was clinging on to. And my parents were like saying, you're very old fashioned now, you want to own your old T your own T V. Very odd, isn't it? Iain Gulland: Yeah, no, I totally agree. And I slightly older than you when I grew up. all Wayne Hubbard: Ha ha ha Iain Gulland: our telly up until I can't remember, were all rental. and by I but I use that analogy with my own children, you know, because mobile phones is the same argument. So the Wayne Hubbard: Yeah, yeah. Iain Gulland: most people, I mean I know it's different models now. But most people rent their phone. They don't realise they're renting their phone. They're paying fighting. Wayne Hubbard: That's right. Iain Gulland: And every two years they get a phone call or they get a text Wayne Hubbard: Yeah. Iain Gulland: saying, Would like to upgrade? And my kids went, probably still do that, go through that process. But that's exactly what happened with the tellies in the seventies. So we had a telly, we paid well not me, my parents paid a a monthly fee. And every so often, I'm not saying every year or every two years, they would come along and say, We've got a better telly for you. Wayne Hubbard: Yeah. Iain Gulland: It's colour. You know, it's not black and white. You can see the different colours of snooker balls, right? Here it is. And you paid a little bit more and you got a tele and you're right, it was repairable, it was fixable. if it didn't work they took it away and gave you another one. but every so often you upgraded and you constantly upgraded your television. Wayne Hubbard: Was your favourite Doctor Who John Pertwee? Is that is that Iain Gulland: Yeah, that' I wouldn't I f yeah, that's the one I grew up with. Yes. Is that how you is that how you measure people's age? Is that how you date me? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wayne Hubbard: There you go. That's we that's how we date you. Yeah, yeah, exactly. yeah, mine's Tom Baker. Although I do remember John Petri just about anyway. So we've just aged ourselves massively Iain Gulland: Yeah, please. Wayne Hubbard: to our audience. Okay. I've got go. So you wanna you wanna do your Iain Gulland: Go. You've got go. So I gotta say so. Thank you. thank you for listening. that's the end of this episode. you've been listening to Unfolding, a circular economy podcast. I've been Iain Gulland. He's been Wayne Hubbard. Thank you to our guest, Sheleni Goyle Vala, who spoke to us from India. And and hopefully you'll be able to listen to the next episode as well. More details of that to come.