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DDH - Clash of the Titans · Plausibly Live - The Dave Bowman Show Podcast

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History's strange, it's alien, and it won't give us what we
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would like to have. But if it's Tuesday on Bill MC
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Live, it's Dave does History in our #3 and we'll take your calls
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and thoughts in the last segment thereof.
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But Dave, there are links for you at billmc.com today on the
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show page entitled Election Day Musings to hook up to Dave
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Bowman, his regular show podcast.
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And Dave Does History and everything he does there.
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So those are there for you on the show page today.
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Find those and catch up with Dave other than when he's here
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with us on Tuesdays. Dave Bowman, thanks for taking
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the day as you always do on Tuesdays.
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Where are we going history wise today?
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We're staying presidential election focused.
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I like that. You know, presidential elections
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are fascinating. They are really windows into the
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American mindset, and they tell us more about the mindset of
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Americans across the board than just about anything else you can
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name. The election this year is, of
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course, tense. It is full of questions, but it
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at its core element, Bill, and this is what I've been trying to
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say for the last two hours. It comes down to ideas of
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government, how, which, which path are we going to follow?
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The interesting discussion I had with Ben last night as well.
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Why are there only two? Well, Once Upon a time there
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were far more than two and many occurrences of those kinds of
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elections. But the last election to have
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four primary parties in it, if you will, happened in 1912, more
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than 100 years ago. And in many ways, I would say to
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you that this was the point at which the future course of
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America was defined. The election of eight of 1912
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stands out because it was rare defining moment where
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ideological fault lines of the nation were thrown into very
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sharp relief, shaping the future of American politics in ways
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that still resonate today. There were four major
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candidates, each reflecting distinct visions for the
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nation's nation's future. The election was a referendum on
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the direction America should take during a time of intense
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social, economic and political change.
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In essence, 1912 was a reminder that ideological diversity
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within parties, the influence of third party movements, and
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addressing economic disparities are as crucial now as they were.
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That it teaches us that American politics isn't just a tug of war
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between two sides. It's a complex, often fractious
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blend of ideas and personalities which are constantly evolving
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and are shaped by the nation's economic and social needs.
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And we explore all of that ahead with Dave does history right
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here on Bill Mick live. We're back in 60 seconds In
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today's America, third party runs our exercises in futility.
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Dave, this one was a little different.
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We got to go to 1912 to take a look see.
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I disagree with that theory, Bill, and I think the I, I think
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the 1912 election may show you that the reason for a third
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party run isn't necessarily what you think it is.
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Oh, you mean like to win? Yes, OK.
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After the initial Progressive Era of the late 1890s into the
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into the new century, American politics by 1912 was at a was at
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a huge crossroads. The nation had seen substantial
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changes, regulatory laws broke up monopolies, the introduction
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of consumer protections, improved labor conditions.
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Yet rather than solving these problems, and I'm doing the
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problems in an air quote, they actually just highlighted the
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ongoing societal issues rather than actually fixing them, or in
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the terms of today, a deeper structural change.
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The desire for greater protections was still simmering,
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particularly amongst the working classes and those who advocated
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for women's rights. Social and economic conditions
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were rapidly evolving. Industrialization had
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transformed the nation and the economy, but it had led to a
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perception at least of inequality, harsh working
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conditions, a sense of disconnection for many
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Americans. Labor movements were gaining
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momentum. They were calling for better
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wages, reasonable hours, safer workplaces.
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I mean, who could be against that, right?
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Events like the Triangle Shortwaist Factory and fire in
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1911 had exposed brutal realities that workers faced and
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that increased public sympathy for these labor reforms.
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Of course, one of the biggest issues in 1912 was women's
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suffrage. This is an issue, you know, we,
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we, I'm not sure if we jokingly talk about it today or if we're
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serious when we say, well, maybe we shouldn't let women vote.
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It's I, I get the humor in it. But even today, that's an issue,
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an issue that was resolved way back, you know, more than 100
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years ago we thought, but in 19. 12A demographic that is played
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to very strongly in these elections.
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Look at the abortion amendments that we're dealing with here in
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Florida and elsewhere around the country.
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It plays to women very strong and.
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It always has this this issue by 1912 was a was was possibly the
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biggest societal issue in play. The activists were campaigning
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for the right to vote. There was this progressive
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idealism that focused on civil responsibility and social
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justice, and the suffrage movement had made significant
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strides, drawing support across the social and political
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spectrum. They felt like they were very
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close to achieving their goal of allowing women to vote.
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The economic, the social shifts meant by 1912, American public
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was increasingly calling for reforms that went beyond what
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the ideals, the early ideals of progressivism, progressivism had
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offered. This election in 1912 would
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become a forum where these demands interacted, bringing to
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the forefront the competing visions for how to address the
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nation's evolving challenges. This dynamic would set the stage
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for a transformative election in which the candidates had to
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grapple with the realities of a new America, shaped by the
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progressives but still wanting more substantive change.
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This is what I was talking about earlier in the in the show.
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There was this idea that came out of the post Civil War era as
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progressivism began to develop, and I use the term progressivism
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as they would have used it in that era, not as it would be
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used today. Progressivism in that era
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believed that the purpose of government, specifically the
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American government bill, was to make the citizens life better,
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and that as long as something wasn't specifically verboten,
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there was nothing that the government was outside of the
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government's reach if it was making your life better.
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And again, it's that air quote thing here, because who decides
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what better is for what you think is better may not be what
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I think is better and may not be what a listener thinks is
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better. Did that include massive social
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spending in the life? It did.
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There was there was this idea that the United States should be
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meeting these problems should be addressed.
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This is where the temperance movement comes into this.
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Why isn't the government doing something to stop these social
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ills that we think we have? And those, those arguments, they
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resonate today. Even I heard, was it last week
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that that one of the candidates, Donald Trump, was making a pitch
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about getting rid of income tax and funding the government via
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tariffs. These are the same ideals that
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were coming into this 1912 election.
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And you're going to end up with four parties.
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You're going to end up with, of course, the the, the GOP, the
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Republican Party, which in 1912 holds the White House under
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William Howard Taft. William Howard Taft is one of
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those people in our country who should be more honored than he
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is. He is AI guess the best term for
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him is he is a really good man. He is one of these men very
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similar to Herbert Hoover. He's he's a person who is going
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to hold the presidency. He's going to experience some
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some blowback from that and he's not going to be as successful as
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that at that as he wants to be. But in his post presidential
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life, he is going to be the shining example of someone who
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gave a great concession speech and meant it.
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You're going to have the Democrat Party, which is led by
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Woodrow Wilson, who will be, you know, is a is a, a hard line
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progressive, but not like we would think of today.
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We think of progressivism today as this almost shotgun effect
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trying to cover every demographic there is.
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That's not Wilson, but he does. He does firmly believe that
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government should be more empowered to solve every every
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problem that we have. Those should be the two main
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characters, but it's 1912, so we're going to add in two more
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just for good measure. Well, we might.
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It's a party. Invite them all.
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It's it's multiple parties, apparently.
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And we dig into the 1912 election, the presidential
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election as we continue. Dave does history here on Bill
10:23
Mick live. Glad Dave's along.
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Polls are open so far turn out over 63% so far, 11,000 and
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change have already voted this morning.
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We'll see how it goes. Results tonight start at six.
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It's a take on history you won't find anywhere else.
10:39
Dave does history on Bill Mick live.
10:43
Richmond Transmission auto service this hour sponsor the
10:46
program. Dave Bowman with us laying out a
10:49
four party presidential race coming up well in 1912 and we've
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hit the Republicans and Democrats.
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Dave, who else is in the party here?
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Well, before we before we get to them, let's talk about these two
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major candidates for just a second.
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The as I said, the the issues here are, to borrow a phrase,
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it's the economy, stupid. One of these candidates proposes
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breaking up large corporate monopolies, lowering tariffs,
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returning America to a more competitive free market system.
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Now that doesn't seem like all that big thing, right?
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He will argue that monopolies and trusts should be dismantled
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entirely to create a truly level playing field.
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Believes that big corporations stifle innovation, restrict
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economic opportunities and and hurt small businesses and
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entrepreneurs. And to combat this, he's
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advocating for stronger antitrust legislation that
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prevents companies from dominating industries and
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squeezing out competition. Sounds great, huh?
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Would we today kind of agree with that?
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That's Woodrow Wilson's platform.
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Interesting the. Democrat, The TAV platform is
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more kind of mush mouth and this is what causes a problem for
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him. Teddy Roosevelt, who had been
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the president and Taft had been his vice president.
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Teddy Roosevelt wants more pushing for things he wants.
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He wants a what he's going to call a new nationalism, a
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federal regulation of big business and controlled by the
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government of all these big, that's the Republicans, folks.
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The Republicans wanted this. And he's upset that Taft isn't
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doing all this. And so he decides to run in the
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primaries at at the convention because there weren't primaries
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but at the convention against Taft.
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And he loses to Taft at the convention.
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And so he says, well, I'm just going to take my Bull Moose and
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go run on my own. And he literally starts a third
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party called the Progressive Bull Moose Party to specifically
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and intentionally if not necessarily when Bill to deny
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Taft a second term because he doesn't think Taft is going to
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go far enough with his progressive policies.
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He doesn't necessarily completely disagree with Wilson
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that progress needs to be made, but he just hates Taft and so
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he's going to do everything he can to keep Taff from getting a
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second term. And this is what I'm talking
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about with the idea of a third party isn't always necessarily
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to win. Sometimes it's just to screw
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things up. And.
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Roosevelt was that kind of guy. You got to ask yourself that
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same question about 92. Was was the purpose of the third
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party run to actually win, or was it to screw things up?
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Enter into all of this a a fourth candidate.
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Now, part of progressivism is this idea of socialism.
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Socialism is a huge deal in the United States around the turn of
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the century, especially in the Midwest.
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Huge deal. The socialists are led by a guy
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by the name of Eugene Debs who opposes war.
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He's he's he embodies the frustrations of America's
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working class. He is no stranger to the
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political stage and run as a socialist candidate before.
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And his main goal isn't necessarily to win.
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His goal is to get enough attention that people start
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listening to what he has to say and the socialists have to say.
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And so he's running on this platform of social
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progressivism, particularly women's life, women's rights, to
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vote. And he is really just trying to
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bang the drum to get attention. And you'd have to say that he's
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successful. So successful did.
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He earn a platform. Here.
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What's that? Did he earn a platform here?
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I mean, did he have a place and was he listened to him?
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He's not going to win any electoral votes, but he's going
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to win enough votes to make people pay attention to them.
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And he's going to win enough votes that he is so
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significantly listened to that the Wilson administration later
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will arrest him and jail him as a potential threat to what they
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think should be happening. Wow.
15:42
So this idea of law fair, Nothing new.
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Interesting, so while Debs didn't get any votes,
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significant votes, he got a voice.
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How impactful do the two non major parties end up being here
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Dave? I mean, was it a a rigorous
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debate or, or was it what we become used to seeing out of
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third party? Well, campaigns in 1912 are run
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much differently than they are now, and that's something to
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keep in mind. In fact, this campaign is going
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to see two of these candidates really hitting the road.
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Teddy Roosevelt, Eugene Debs are going to go out and they are
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just going to beat. They're going to door knock.
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They're going to give speeches, you know, 3-4, five times a day.
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They are really, really pushing hard for this.
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Taft's approach is more subdued. It's, I can't prove it, but
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there's almost this mindset that with, with three people running
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against him, he knows he can't win, especially since Roosevelt
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is going to suck support from him.
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And so he takes a very hands off approach.
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He hardly campaigns at all. Wilson, on the other hand, does
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what's more traditional in that era, which is that he allows his
17:04
surrogates to campaign for him. So while he sits on the porch in
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Vermont, his surrogates go out, do the speeches, do the do the
17:12
approach. He wants to stay above all the
17:14
drama because there is a lot of drama in the rebel Republican
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Party. That drama, of course, is Teddy
17:21
Roosevelt, who is so mad at and so hates William Howard Taft
17:28
that he will do. I mean, you talk about a Never
17:31
Trumper. How about a Never Tafter?
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He's he's, he's gone from being Taft's biggest supporter when he
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was elected in 19 O 8 to being his biggest opponent.
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And, and Roosevelt is, is gaining enough strength that
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it's really going to become problematic.
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It really is. Debs, on the other hand, is just
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being, he's just being Eugene Debs.
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He's he's doing the socialist thing.
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And ultimately, when Election Day rolls around and there's, we
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could spend hours talking about the differences between the
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candidates and their their positions.
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But what I want you to understand is that if you were
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to look at their positions on economic issues today, you would
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see more in common with Woodrow Wilson than you would with Teddy
18:21
Roosevelt, which is something you will not hear on the Glenn
18:24
Beck show. Now, his other beliefs, Yeah.
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But in that aspect of it, Wilson was much closer aligned with the
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current Republican idealism than Roosevelt was.
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And so when Election Day comes around, nobody knows for sure
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what's going to happen. But boy, has Teddy Roosevelt
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thrown a monkey into the wrench, as I would say.
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And who knows what this Deb's thing is going to do.
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We'll have to wait and see until the votes are counted, which
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takes more than a day. Yeah, kind of like it will
18:59
tonight and tomorrow. Back with Dave in a moment.
19:03
Richmond Transmission and Auto Service this hour sponsor as
19:06
we're in the middle of Dave does history and you can weigh in at
19:09
the end of this segment if you've got thoughts on this 1912
19:12
election and any comparisons for today.
19:15
Dave, 4 candidates issues that have divided parties and they
19:22
have different directions to go. Not a lot different in that
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regard from what we're used to. But have we?
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Have we seen any 4 reasonably viable parties ever?
19:34
Well, yeah, I, I think you'd have to say in 1912 there were
19:37
four viable parties. Certainly in the 1860 election
19:41
there were multiple viable election or multiple viable
19:46
parties. You know, this whole development
19:49
of the two party system is a, it's a self protection measure I
19:54
believe that the politicians have invented to prevent this
19:57
sort of thing from happening because what Teddy Roosevelt
20:00
does in this election. Is it's almost embarrassing in
20:06
some ways for for the guy that we hold up on this pedestal as
20:10
as the epitome of what a being an American really means.
20:14
This is a guy who intentionally, knowingly, willingly meant to do
20:22
anything he can, not necessarily to win, but to keep the guy that
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he didn't like out of office. And you know, the, the game
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historians play, what happens downstream from that when the
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boat, when the votes are counted.
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And it takes takes about a week to a week and a half to actually
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count the votes In 1912. However, because exit polling is
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still a thing because of the way things are, it's so obvious that
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Theodore Roosevelt has pulled so many votes away from Taft that
20:57
Wilson. It's obvious that night that
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Wilson is going to win. In fact, he gets just under 42%
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of the popular vote, but wins 435 electoral votes.
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Wow, that's how effective Roosevelt's campaign was.
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Second place goes to Teddy Roosevelt, who pulls 27% of the
21:21
vote and 88 electoral votes. Which leaves Taft in 3rd place
21:26
with just 23% of the vote and eight electoral votes.
21:30
So you'd have to say Roosevelt is disappointed by his defeat in
21:37
the in the broader sense, but he's satisfied in that he has
21:40
kept Taft out, which means that the progressive agenda, even
21:44
though it's not his progressive agenda, is going to move
21:48
forward. So is he really that upset about
21:52
it? Well, in the words of Dave
21:55
Berry, he's so upset that he goes off to Africa to try to
21:58
kill every living thing on the on the continent on a safari.
22:01
But there you go. Eugene Debs finishes in fourth
22:06
place. He gets no electoral votes bill,
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but he pulls 6% of the entire electorate.
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Now keep in mind he gets just shy of a million votes, which is
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6% because there's only 14 million votes cast in this
22:21
election. But keep in mind the most
22:24
important factor here, there are zero women voting in the 1912
22:31
election as he's the candidate that is most in favor of women's
22:37
suffrage. Had there been women voting,
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might that have looked a little differently?
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Sure. You have to wonder, and they are
22:45
very encouraged. Debs and his socialist
22:48
supporters are very encouraged by their substantial gains that
22:52
they will make here. So that gives them a foothold.
22:54
It does. Which again, is the purpose of
22:58
this third party run to win? Or is it to gain that foothold
23:02
to begin to influence things? We'll see over the coming decade
23:08
that the more influence that the Socialists and Debs gain, the
23:13
more reactionary the Wilson administration becomes, to the
23:17
point where they will pass legislation that makes what Debs
23:21
is doing a crime, and they will arrest him and imprison him.
23:26
Wow. So you know what, whatever you
23:30
think of the Constitution, you got to wonder if that's, you
23:35
know, what's what was really supposed to happen.
23:38
We're not too many decades away from though thinking that
23:41
arresting socialist is probably a good idea.
23:45
Yeah, well, what's that first? That pesky First Amendment thing
23:49
keeps coming in there. Doesn't.
23:51
It and. Ultimately, the American people
23:53
rejected that socialist view for the most part.
23:58
Would they have won elections? I don't know.
24:01
If you take that progressive idealism, that the idea of the
24:06
American government is to make your life better, who promises
24:11
what to do? That becomes the issue as we
24:14
look back at the 1912 election. We have to understand that it
24:17
it, it did shift party dynamics. You began to see less interior
24:23
division in Paula and parties because the parties understood
24:26
that if if that happened, they were going to get beaten.
24:30
The last time we we saw this, of course, was 92 with Ross Perot
24:34
kind of taking, taking the election away from, from, from
24:38
George Bush. Did he intend to do that?
24:41
I don't know before that was 1972 with George Wallace clearly
24:47
taking votes away from Herbert Hubert Humphrey.
24:51
Was it Hubert Humphrey, but I forgot who, who ran in 77?
24:55
George McGovern took votes away from the Democrat with the
24:58
candidate with, with taking those kind of things.
25:01
So, and his purpose was to do that, which ended up putting
25:04
Nixon in the White House, which you know, you, you follow,
25:08
follow things down from there. It did cause an expansion of
25:12
progressivism. The the idea of progressivism,
25:15
this idea that government was there to solve your problems
25:17
certainly gained more strength coming out of the 1912 election.
25:22
And that would become even today.
25:26
I would submit to you that Republicans don't want to admit
25:29
it, but even they tend to look at government as what is
25:32
government doing to make my life better, as opposed to what it
25:36
had been before that, which was what is government doing to get
25:38
out of my life? Right.
25:41
It led to the rise of the socialist movement, which we
25:44
don't have time to talk about today, But it also foreshadowed
25:48
the ideological divides. It was a precursor to the
25:52
ideological polarization that we see in American politics today.
25:57
You either do it my way, Roosevelt, or, or I'm going to
26:01
screw your game up. I'm going to take my ball and
26:04
leave. And that's kind of where we see
26:07
ourselves today. I mean, the 2016 Republican
26:10
primary was a great example of that, wasn't it?
26:13
It was I, I don't like you and we're going to do this my way.
26:19
And off we went successfully at that case.
26:21
But this polarization within the parties is something that they
26:25
don't like. The parties do not like this at
26:27
all. I mean, look, look what the
26:28
Democrats did in 2008, 2020 to make sure that those problems
26:37
didn't occur for them. It's a it's a study that we
26:41
should make. It's a lesson for us today.
26:43
But most importantly, I think it's just a reminder that
26:46
American politics has always been cutthroat and it always
26:50
will be. And we should learn from that.
26:54
We get to your calls at 321-768-1240 in just a minute on
26:59
WMMB. So Dave, you say these parties
27:04
that this kind of developed where we are as parties today
27:08
and I see the Republican Party being more inclusive as far as
27:14
understanding we're not all going to agree on things, but we
27:17
bring people in. The Democrats idea of inclusive
27:20
is bring everybody in, tell them their views are OK and then tell
27:23
them how we're going to do the business.
27:26
Am I misreading that? And even beyond that, we're
27:30
going to bring you to the tent. We're going to tell you how
27:32
you're going to vote, but then we're going to use the scare
27:34
tactic of if you don't support us, we're going to demonize the
27:38
opponent. The opponent, You know, Donald
27:41
Trump is going to arrest all the LGBTQ people and put them in in
27:44
concentration camps, right? Yeah, and if you have tattoos or
27:48
whatever. Else and.
27:49
You have a pet squirrel. Yeah.
27:52
And you have to ask yourself, OK, what reasonable rational
27:55
person would believe that? But somehow when you get into
27:59
politics, reasonable and rational can go out the window.
28:04
And you can you can find yourself believing that because
28:07
someone told a joke about Puerto Rico, it's the end of the world
28:11
or, you know, whatever. Ultimately, it comes down to the
28:16
question, and this was the real question in the Progressive Era,
28:20
how is government? What is government going to do
28:23
to make my life better? And you can see in the results
28:28
of the 1912 election that literally only 20 to 23% of the
28:33
people of this country didn't think that it was government's
28:36
job. Those that voted for Taft didn't
28:38
think that it was government's job to solve your problems.
28:42
Those who voted for Wilson thought that it would one way.
28:45
Those who voted for Roosevelt thought that it should another
28:48
way, and those who voted for Debs thought that it should a
28:51
third way. But the bottom line is 80% of
28:56
the country basically had decided that it was government's
28:59
job to take care of me. Where would you find that
29:03
percentage today? I would guess.
29:07
I mean, this is my own opinion about things.
29:09
I think it's closer to 100%. I think Republicans pay lip
29:14
service to the idea that they don't want that.
29:16
But reality is, Bill, in this country, you can see it in this
29:21
election, what is Donald Trump going to do to solve our
29:25
problems? Is it Donald Trump's
29:28
constitutionally speaking? Is Donald Trump supposed to
29:31
solve the problems or is it Congress's job?
29:36
And yet, well, there's an assumption we don't even, we
29:40
don't even consider that. We don't even say to ourselves,
29:42
this congressperson, this senator is going to do these
29:44
things. We jump on this president.
29:48
If this person is president, this is what they're going to
29:50
fix and change. Well, how are they going to do
29:51
that? Well, hopefully it's with
29:54
leadership and being able to work with Congress.
29:57
I mean, Reagan was able to work with a Democratic Congress and
30:00
get things done. We're not.
30:01
You don't think either one of these two candidates could do
30:04
you? No, that's sadly no line one.
30:08
You're up on Bill Mclive. Good morning.
30:10
Hey, this is Gary Pompey in Melbourne here.
30:12
Yeah, Gary, just want to say, Dave, this has been a really
30:15
good episode. I didn't know about it being
30:17
four way right. I knew Teddy was a bad bad dude
30:22
but did not know it was a four way race.
30:24
Thanks so much for the info. And that squirrel was murdered
30:27
by the the Democratic Party members all.
30:31
Right, Gary, thank you. Back to the all important
30:34
squirrel. Well, you know, Roosevelt has
30:38
this. He has a certain level of esteem
30:41
in our American history and our vision.
30:42
He's on Mount Rushmore. But the question becomes why?
30:48
Again, I crunch whenever I hear people say I'm a Roosevelt
30:51
Republican. Yeah.
30:52
What? What does that mean?
30:53
You're a progressive. You you favor those things that
30:56
he was in favor of, which certainly to me sound like
30:59
they're right out of what would pass for today's Democrat Party
31:03
platform. Most certainly, yeah.
31:05
So when Donald Trump says he favors higher tax tariffs, you
31:10
understand that those are can keep your prices high and they
31:13
will favor big business. Is that what you really want?
31:15
And we'll see how we decide later on tonight.
31:18
We hope Dave Bowman, as always, enjoy our Tuesdays together and
31:22
especially Dave does history. I'll look forward to talking to
31:24
you again next Tuesday, man. We'll see you then.
31:29
Check out more stories from history@davedoeshistory.org.