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Greatest Gift: Conversation · Beyond the Sermon

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  You're listening to Beyond the Sermon, the podcast of First
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  Methodist Church in Collingswood, NJ.
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  Our goal is to not only share our sermons, but to go beyond
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  the sermon in conversations about what we're learning and
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  what God is doing in our lives and our community.
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  You can find out more information about our church at
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  fumccollingswood.org. Thanks for joining us for this
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  conversation. This was the most relatable
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  illustration that I think you've ever used in a sermon.
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  The pickle on the burger. Pickle on the burger for me.
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  Amazing, right? For me and I wasn't expecting
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  you to actually add depth to it in regards to like the meat
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  Patty being the most important part and in the center and same
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  with the scripture sandwiched in between couple of sections about
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  spiritual gifts, but. That came later.
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  Yeah, it was much later. Well, but.
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  Oh, the thought even like as I was reflecting on things and
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  stuff, it was like, I was like, how am I going to intro this
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  sermon on love without talking about relationships or, I don't
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  know. Somehow as I was reading through
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  the past, I was like, and just thinking about it as like, yeah,
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  it just kind of jumps in there. Like, it doesn't if you're, but
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  if you're thinking about First Corinthians 13 as the wedding
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  passage, it seems just squashed in there.
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  No, it's not I I liked it and you're right, it's sometimes not
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  put on the menu like described for the burger, which is the
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  most annoying thing because I believe it's probably the most
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  divisive part that you could put.
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  You don't have like super anti lettuce.
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  I know there's some anti tomato people, but there's way more
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  anti pickle people than anti tomato people and so baffles me.
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  I don't know why diners don't put it on the menu and they're
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  like, we assumed you wanted half of a pickle on your plate so
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  that the juice could soak into the bread of your sandwich.
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  And all of your French fries. So disgusting.
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  And I'm like, I'm, I'm so sensitive to it that like,
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  Rebecca, I get like, spicy chicken sandwich at Chick-fil-A.
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  Yeah. And it comes with Pickles.
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  And it's also not on the menu, right, For being on the
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  sandwich. And I always have her remove it.
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  And one time she forgot to ask for it and she took the Pickles
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  off herself and gave it to me. And I was like, juice is.
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  Already there. Yeah.
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  It's bread. I can deal with that.
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  I can. No, but no.
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  It's not my favorite. Oh my gosh.
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  But yeah, so very relatable to me.
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  I'm glad. I'm glad we were finally able to
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  connect in a certain ministry. Yeah, You know, it took four
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  years, but yeah. So I I enjoyed that.
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  I was surprised math has been hitting me hard lately.
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  You can you can talk to the youth about that.
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  But like number, I connect more with numbers now.
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  It just gives me more of a solidified thing to give me
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  context, I guess. Sure.
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  And so when you said 18 weeks of this year will be about
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  spiritual gifts and you preach maybe around 44 for the year,
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  right? Yeah.
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  If you don't count like special like Maundy Thursday and Good
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  Friday. Yeah, I I aim to preach
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  somewhere like 42 to 44 Sundays. Yeah.
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  So we're looking at like 40% of the calendar year ish is gonna
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  be spiritual gifts. Yeah.
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  Hey, how are we going to talk about that on the podcast?
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  Oh, we're not going to do it in the summer.
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  No podcasts in the summer? Or maybe podcasts in the summer?
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  I mean, maybe we'll do some selected.
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  Like sporadic pod episodes? And kind of condense some
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  things. The other thing I've been
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  thinking about is though, I think maybe at the end of June,
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  I might want to have a, a gathering of some sort where
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  people can ask questions or we can solicit questions ahead of
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  time and kind of do some question and answer question
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  response kind of thing related to before we really get in depth
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  into the actual like individual gifts, which is what the summer
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  is going to be like. But is that just as we're kind
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  of like getting this framework in our mind to give people a few
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  weeks to chew on it and then do like AQ and R kind of thing
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  after church maybe, oh, nice, maybe have a cookout or
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  something. And.
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  We post that on the pod. Could we?
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  Yeah. Well, that was one of my
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  thoughts. If we recorded that, that would
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  be maybe a helpful thing for people.
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  Oh no, that's a great idea. Yeah, 'cause I think the, the
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  tricky part is the not feel like it's repetitive, which I don't
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  think it will. But then you're also absorbing,
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  especially if some of the stuff is so new to people absorbing
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  all of this new stuff. And then like, where's the time
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  to chew on it and then attempt to practice it?
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  But I was, I was even enjoying the discussion.
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  Sunday School Group is going through a series by Tyler
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  Stanton. State in that state in the
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  familiar stranger. The Familiar Stranger, also
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  about the Holy Spirit, and I've been listening to that book has
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  been really, really good. Yeah.
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  Highly recommend. Even if you're in the class and
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  go. I feel like the book touches on
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  things that we talk about in class, but there's so much more
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  going on in the book. It's not like class just
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  summarizes the book and then we talk about.
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  It yeah. So I I that pivots a little.
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  Bit. Here where we are in that Sunday
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  School class, I think as of this past Sunday because of the first
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  two sessions cover like the first six chapters of the book
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  and then like the session I taught this week because you and
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  Angela bailed on your teaching responsibilities.
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  Yep, Cancun. No, in their defense, they had
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  taken the the high school seniors on a camping overnight
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  backpacking trip to kind of send them off into their summer and
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  whatever lies ahead. But anyway, so this this Sunday,
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  we did 1 chapter one session. OK on discernment, on hearing.
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  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh yeah.
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  So, but as I was listening to the the study session he did, I
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  was like, Oh yeah, there's a lot of this that's almost verbatim
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  or like a condensed operation of what he talks about.
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  Awesome. Yeah, because it's really good.
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  So that's why. Like even if you just go back
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  and read through the 1st 6 chapters, it's really good book.
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  And I was surprised I didn't realize make the connection of I
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  knew they were like in the talked about in the same
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  circles, but I didn't realize that Tyler, the author of A
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  familiar stranger took over Church of John, Mark Comer.
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  Yeah, it is practicing the way that we've done multiple series
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  on in this church and to hear that story and how God made that
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  all happen and then to hear miracle stories and yeah, it's
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  just yeah, really awesome and encouraging.
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  Yeah, Tyler also leads the US chapter, I guess. 24720. 47
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  Prayer, which is connected to, you know, Pete Gregg, who when I
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  did that series on how to hear God, his book was one of the
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  influential ones. So that one I'd recommend to,
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  yeah, anybody who is interested in.
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  Yeah, so since we'll we'll be and the theme of Holy Spirit and
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  spiritual gifts a lot this year, I think he may have touched on
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  as we talked about what it was going to be.
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  But why do you think it's so important?
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  And I would say also so urgent because it seems like, yes, it's
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  important. So we could do like a Holy
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  Spirit series this year, mentions the gifts and then
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  touchback on it next year. But why do you feel like or why
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  do you sense that like God is leading us to really push into
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  this? Well, we're going to get into
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  that a good bit this Sunday. Spoil No, it's, it's fine.
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  People can hear it twice. I don't mind.
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  But but I think I think this is a key part of what God wants to
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  do in our church specifically. But but I'd say even more
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  broadly than that, you know, there's been a resurgence in
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  recent years in talking about spiritual disciplines and that
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  kind of stuff. And, you know, that started
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  probably probably 20 or 30 years ago.
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  Richard Foster released his classic book, The Celebration of
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  Discipline, and that kind of started a conversation there.
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  Dallas Willard picked that up. He had, he talked about the
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  disciplines a lot. He had a book called The Spirit
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  of the Disciplines. It kind of gets to the heart
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  motivation underneath it. And then, you know, more
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  recently a lot of people have been starting to pick up on
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  that. You got John Mark Comer
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  practicing the way John Tyson wrote a book called Beautiful
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  Resistance that talks about how the spiritual practices are, you
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  know, things we can do daily and weekly that are acts of
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  resistance against the Kingdom of this world right now.
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  There's been a resurgence in that and, and I think that's
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  been good, but it's always kind of left me feeling like, but
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  there's got to be something after that.
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  There's got to be something that these disciplines are leading
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  towards. And when I heard John Thompson
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  talk for the first time last summer about bringing these this
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  idea of spiritual disciplines and spiritual gifts together in
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  the life of Jesus, it all kind of clicked for me.
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  And so in this season of of God revealing who he's calling us to
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  be as a church, it felt like this was this was the time, this
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  was the natural outgrowth of some of where we've been, but
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  then also where we need to go. And so I thought about doing
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  these two series more split up, like doing what we're doing this
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  spring and then doing the spiritual guests either in the
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  fall or maybe even next January or whatever.
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  But I had this feeling like it was kind of just teasing out the
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  idea and then creating a vacuum and, and in a vacuum, you know,
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  all kinds of things rush in to fill that void.
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  And so it's felt like God was saying, no, do it all go deep,
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  do it well. It's important enough to spend
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  this much time on it. It's important enough to to make
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  it Sunday morning, you know, right in our sermon series, you
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  know, this isn't something that I wanted to do just as a add on
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  thing midweek where if you're interested, come on out.
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  I felt like it was important enough for all of our people to
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  to need to hear it because I think it should shift the way we
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  do church and. You mentioned it not being like
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  an optional midweek type thing, but I know that an optional
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  midweek type thing. The Forge has been going on this
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  school year and they've been diving into some of this
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  material. And So what?
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  What's something if if it doesn't, you know, impose on the
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  privacy of someone else? But like, sure, what's something
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  that's been like a surprising fruit from that time that
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  encourages you for more of a congregation wide dive into
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  this? It's been amazing to watch
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  people as the light bulb has kind of come on and, and they've
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  realized, oh, these things that I've always just kind of thought
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  were just part of me and, and my Christianity or my relationship
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  with Jesus or whatever. These are actually places where
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  God has gifted me. And that's not the same for
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  everybody else. And so it explains a lot about
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  what we'll call in a couple weeks, gift tension, where, you
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  know, there are certain things about the way we view the world
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  of the church and all that kind of stuff that's been shaped by
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  how God has gifted us. That's not necessarily true of
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  other people's experience. We don't recognize that though,
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  because we just, that's the water we swim in.
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  And so that's how we experience the world.
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  And that can cause tension. It can cause conflict in the
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  church. So we're going to talk about
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  that in a few weeks. But that's been also kind of a
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  light bulb moment for a lot of people.
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  Like, oh, I do that because this is a gift and you actually don't
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  do that. And that's OK.
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  Like some of the examples we've used broadly is just, you know,
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  when I sat down with the Forge back in September, I kind of
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  laid out the plan for the year and they looked at them.
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  So we're going to read all of those books.
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  I said, yeah, aren't you excited?
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  Because me, as someone who's gifted in teaching nerd, I am a
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  nerd and it's part of how God's made me and gifted.
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  Yeah, I'm very. Grateful for nerds, I need them
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  but like the. The idea that that would be, you
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  know, a challenge even for some of our people, that it's not
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  natural for others of our people that for them to actually pick
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  up a book and read is a discipline for them.
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  It was kind of one of those eye opening moments even just for
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  me, like, oh right, I know this. But when it actually plays out
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  in front of me, it's like, right, I need to be sensitive to
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  what feels natural to me but isn't natural to me, and give
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  grace and space for that to be true for other people in other
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  ways. Yeah.
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  Oh, that's good. The the core of the message.
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  Yes. A holy love.
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  How would you give someone that you know been in the church
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  feels like they're a loving person maybe in comparison to
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  the world? How do we give them a practical
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  way to check their heart and also move forward in holy love?
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  Like to not assume that they're already doing it just because
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  they don't curse people out. Yeah.
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  And also to intentionally, if after hearing this message,
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  realizing the importance of that being the foundation, how do
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  they make intentional steps forward to make sure that that
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  is foundational for them? I think for me it often starts
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  with motivation, checking my motivations because anytime my
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  motivations are driven around me or my ego or what I get out of
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  something, that's not holy love because holy love is by
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  definition other oriented. It's self giving.
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  That's what we see in Jesus. That's what we see described in
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  First Corinthians 13. And so checking motivations, am
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  I doing this because it benefits myself or am I doing it because
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  it benefits another? You know, that can be as simple
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  as holding the door open for somebody because you want to
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  love them and honor them rather than just rushing on to whatever
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  your next thing was. Or as complicated and involved
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  as strategically and intentionally relating to your
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  neighbors and, you know, coming up with a plan of how you're
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  going to open your home and invite them in to be able to
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  show them love and that kind of stuff.
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  Even though it's going to cost you something to share a meal or
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  Createspace or whatever it is. I think those are a couple of
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  things that that I tend to look at what, what's the motivation
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  in my heart? Is it me or others?
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  And who benefits from this? I think the hardest part of the
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  whole conversation about love being at the center is what we
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  do when we realize we haven't been doing that.
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  And that might not be generally, it might just be in a certain
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  relationship and. And what do we have to do in
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  order to correct that? Yeah.
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  You know, it might mean going to someone who has offended you and
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  starting the conversation. It might mean choosing to
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  forgive someone for what they've done without them coming to you.
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  It might mean that you need to go and apologize to someone,
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  even if you feel like maybe they should be the one coming to
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  apologize to you. Because most ruptures, there's,
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  there's hurt on both sides. And so choosing to engage,
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  choosing to, as Andrew Forrest says in his book of the same
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  title, you know, to let love go first, I think it's probably the
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  hardest part. Good book cover?
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  I haven't gotten past the cover yet, but I want to.
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  I'm several captives in, but it's it's one I'm working my way
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  through. But you know, his point is that
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  if we really are going to love people, particularly people who
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  have hurt us, people who disagree with us, the way we're
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  going to win them to Jesus isn't by persuading them.
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  It's not by judging them, it's not by withdrawing from them,
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  it's going to be by making the first move out of love and going
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  to them. Yeah, I would say if if you
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  struggle with forgiveness, love, did you?
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  Turn your nail. If you struggle with forgiveness
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  or you you're aware of that tension within a relationship,
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  love goes first. Andrew Forrest and Either
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  Forgive or Forgiveness by Timothy Keller are both really
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  good resources. And even though I haven't read
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  The Love Goes First, I heard him speak and give like a general,
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  you know, so I'm completely ignorant to what's inside.
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  But yeah. Because it's not easy.
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  And yet we're forgiven for all of our mess.
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  Just like it cost Jesus something, for that forgiveness
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  to be possible, it's a good chance it's going to cost us
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  something. Well, that's our conversation
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  for today, but that doesn't mean the conversation is over.
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  We'd love to hear your thoughts on these topics as well.
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  To ask a question about anything we've discussed in this episode,
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  or to join the conversation, you can head over to
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  fumccollingswood.org/podcast. Thanks for being part of this
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  conversation.