Latest / Pharmacy Focus / S2 Ep82: World Psychedelics Day: Why Pharmacy Can't Sit This One Out
Transcript
- PHARMACY FOCUS Psychedelic Medicine, Pharmacy's Role, and the Launch of the Psychedelic Pharmacist Foundation Recorded in Conjunction with World Psychedelics Day, June 20, 2025 Guests: Jason Burge, President, Psychedelic Pharmacist Foundation Will Senneway, Treasurer, Psychedelic Pharmacist Foundation MG Hornick, Education Committee Lead, Psychedelic Pharmacist Foundation --- Luke Halpern: Before we fully dive in, I'd love for you to each briefly introduce yourselves and share what drew you personally to the work of the Psychedelic Pharmacist Association (PPA), and now the Psychedelic Pharmacist Foundation (PPF). We'll start with Jason. Jason Burge, President, Psychedelic Pharmacist Foundation: Sure. My name is Jason Burge, and I'm a nonprofit and strategic consultant specializing in the psychedelic healing space. I run the Psilocybin Assisted Therapy Association and have been involved with many other psychedelic nonprofits. What drew me to the Psychedelic Pharmacist Association from the beginning is that both of our organizations started around the same time, so I've been involved with them as a partner. As they've been growing and expanding and decided to move toward forming the foundation, my operational knowledge of how to start nonprofits and get them functioning really made this a natural collaboration. Pharmacists can focus on the clinical knowledge, and I can focus on what we need to get an organization up and running. Ultimately, we believe thoroughly that these substances can have a real impact on our society and on healing — on truly trying to overcome the mental health crisis that our nation and the world are currently experiencing. Luke Halpern: Absolutely. MG? MG Hornick, Education Committee Lead, Psychedelic Pharmacist Foundation: I'll go next. I am MG Hornick. I am an associate professor of biomedical sciences at Roosevelt University, College of Science, Health, and Pharmacy, and I have been teaching in the pharmacy program for about seven years. Sometime around January or February of 2019, one of my coworkers handed me Michael Pollan's How to Change Your Mind. I read it, fell in love, and — given my strong predilection for neuropharmacology — it really opened up where I wanted to go with my research. In December of 2020, I decided to take everything I had learned and created an elective for pharmacy students. It had become very apparent that students were either using these substances themselves or knew people who were, and they needed to understand things like drug-drug interactions. What are these medications doing for their patients? What could they do negatively? But the main focus was really attacking the stigma and saying, here's how these drugs work. Through that work, a colleague introduced me to the PPA. I joined, became part of the education committee, and then became a board member. When we transitioned to the foundation, the education work moved over there naturally, because my goal has always been to reach not only practicing pharmacists and pharmacy students, but also the public. Luke Halpern: Amazing. Will? Will Senneway, Treasurer, Psychedelic Pharmacist Foundation: Thanks, Luke. My name is Will Senneway, and I've been serving as treasurer of the PPA for over two years. I'm based in Pittsburgh, and I spent my career as a pharmacist in the managed care space. As for my interest in psychedelics, I stumbled across it a few years ago — I saw a podcast with Roland Griffiths and then read the same Michael Pollan book MG just mentioned. I was completely blown away by the results people were seeing compared to what the current mental health treatment landscape offers. I felt like this had to be the newest and best frontier in the space in a long time. Fortunately, I ran across a colleague in Pittsburgh who was a co-founder of the PPA, and he encouraged me to get involved. I signed up to be treasurer, and here I am. Luke Halpern: Thank you all so much for being here. I'm really excited to hear your insights. Let's get right into it with the formation of the PPF. Jason, the Psychedelic Pharmacist Association is already established as a 501(c)(6) trade organization. Why was it important to also form the Psychedelic Pharmacist Foundation as a separate 501(c)(3), and what does that distinction mean practically for the work you're able to do? Jason Burge: As a nonprofit consultant who has followed the PPA for years, when I saw them explore the option of forming a foundation — a 501(c)(3) — I recognized immediately that this allows for charitable giving in a way that trade associations don't. Trade associations are more focused on supporting the profession directly. To me, this was an organization doing it the right way by staying in compliance. We are a professional organization, and forming the foundation is a smart way to create a partnership that lets both organizations stay focused on their respective missions. The foundation's primary goal is education — that's why Will, MG, and the rest of the team are focused there. Education propels the knowledge base and enables us to reach the community at large. The key question is: how do we help pharmacists do their job better while also serving the community that needs the healing? The charitable component ensures this information is accessible to everyone and doesn't sit behind pay gates. We also want to ensure there is equal representation — that the pharmacist a patient sees reflects that patient's background and needs. Both the foundation and the association are focused on educating and empowering, because we are truly in the beginning stages of this movement. The trade association supports the business and professional side, while the foundation focuses on education and charitable funding to support the broader movement. This is a multi-year trajectory, and we have the operational and industry knowledge to make it successful for the long term. Luke Halpern: You said that very well, and I couldn't agree more. I also want to go back to the founding of the PPA itself. Could you walk us through what that formation process looked like? Who came to the table? What was the vision, and how did each of you come to hold your role within the PPF? Jason Burge: I can give some background. The PPA came about from pharmacists who shared the same ideals — how do we turn this into a professional industry and make knowledge accessible so pharmacists can better their careers? Kevin Lanzo was really one of the main visionary founders of the organization. What he wanted to do was open up this field as an option for pharmacists to understand how they could contribute to healing, particularly for those who didn't want to be confined to the mainstream Western medicine model. He recognized that many pharmacists enter their careers and can get constrained by the demands of insurance systems and large organizations. The PPA was meant to offer an alternative path — one that could supplement a career, create a new professional direction, or simply add knowledge for pharmacists who remain in traditional settings. You don't have to be all-in on psychedelics to be part of the association or to benefit from this knowledge. The founding was built on that passion and vision, and it still carries through today. Starting a new organization has its ups and downs — people come in with passion and sometimes burn out. That's why operationally we are very focused on sustainability, so this movement doesn't depend on any single person. I've really seen the founders and the pharmacists on the board commit to building something that will last. Luke Halpern: It's great to hear how you've stayed true to those core values throughout the changes. Now let's shift gears to finances. Will, as treasurer of the PPF, you're stewarding the financial infrastructure of a brand new 501(c)(3). What are the PPF's funding priorities right now, and how are you thinking about building a sustainable financial foundation for this work? Will Senneway: Thanks, Luke. As much as it's about dollars and cents, what it's really about is delivering value to our members and the community through the content we create. In terms of short-term funding priorities, we want to raise funds to build and publish our first continuing education (CE) course on psychedelic therapy. We have experts within our organization and through our partners and advisors, and we're confident we can deliver best-in-class educational content. We believe there are enough people out there who will find value in that — who will want to take the courses, donate to the organization, and be part of this movement, not only for their own professional development but also to help build a better mental health landscape in this country. Luke Halpern: And I feel like the movement is only growing toward that kind of support. Let's zoom out a bit now and look at the bigger picture. We're recording this to coincide with World Psychedelics Day on June 20. Jason, when you look at where psychedelic medicine stands in the United States right now — with compounds in late-stage trials, executive action at the federal level, and state programs beginning to form — how would you characterize this moment, and what are the biggest open questions for pharmacy specifically? Jason Burge: It's an exciting moment and, simultaneously, one of the most challenging. We are all pioneers here — we're literally building the plane as it takes off. That's been true since Oregon psilocybin services came online and, really, since the PPA started at the very beginning of that movement. There is so much we still don't know. The regulated programs that are developing are great, but there are still significant hurdles. The issue of stigma remains real, and getting knowledge to everyone — regardless of where they are in the country — is a core challenge. This movement isn't limited to places with the most access to psychedelics. It should be available for everyone, and that's where pharmacists are critical. Nobody on the care team has all of the knowledge, and pharmacists can be so vital because some existing programs aren't operating on a clinical model. Colorado and Oregon's models are based largely on informed consent — they can be therapeutic, but they aren't medical models. New Mexico's model will be clinical, but that is still developing. So when patients — particularly those with severe trauma, or someone who has been on selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) for 20 years — come seeking information, the pharmacist is uniquely positioned to provide it. Pharmacists understand drug-drug interactions and can relieve pressure from primary care providers who may not have detailed knowledge of these compounds. Not everyone wants to discuss this with their prescriber. Not everyone trusts that those conversations won't be recorded. But people trust their pharmacists. "Talk to your pharmacist" should become a standard part of how people navigate this space. It's not up to the therapist, it's not up to the guide — and doctors have a limited base of knowledge here. Pharmacists understand that psilocybin, ayahuasca, and ibogaine are very different compounds with very different profiles. That specific expertise is what makes pharmacists an essential part of the care team. Luke Halpern: Absolutely. The conversation around psychedelic-assisted therapy has largely centered on therapists, psychiatrists, and prescribers. Will, MG — where does the pharmacist fit in, and what does the PPF believe the profession stands to lose if pharmacy doesn't assert itself now, while the movement is still in its infancy? Will Senneway: As Jason touched on, as medication experts, pharmacists are best positioned to be part of the care team — particularly for screening and counseling around drug interactions. But I also think about the vast majority of community pharmacists who will never work in the psychedelic space in any meaningful way, but will absolutely get questions as these therapies are approved and become more widely known. Pharmacists are the most accessible healthcare practitioners in the country — they're in every grocery store. It's critical that they be well educated about this so they can have stigma-free conversations with curious patients and clearly explain the significant difference between using these substances at home versus being in a structured treatment program with appropriate set and setting. The risk of not being involved now is simply getting left behind as new regulations and guidance are issued. We need to make sure our voice is heard so decision-makers understand how important it is to have pharmacists as part of the care team. MG Hornick: I'd like to add to that. Pharmacists are the drug experts. They are the most accessible healthcare providers for a majority of communities, and they are often deeply trusted in those communities. New legislation and new programs — whether for research or clinical therapy — require a pharmacist or drug expert to be part of the safety protocol. That means knowing how to screen patients, what information to share, and how to counsel someone who may be on other psychoactive medications or has relevant comorbidities. I'll also add that as someone who teaches pharmacy students, I see how many of them already know people who are trying these substances, and they come to me with questions. Many of them are also deeply committed to mental health and are asking, "Is there a path for me in this space?" By getting in on the ground floor now, we ensure there is a path. There are currently very few residency programs for pharmacists who want to work in psychedelic or psychoactive medicine. By opening that door, we're opening it for future pharmacists as well. Jason Burge: Well said. This movement is all about going national, and it's a matter of when — not if. The more pharmacists who get involved now, the better positioned they'll be as this field expands. And there's another dimension here: pharmacists work high-pressure jobs. Through this education, they're also learning that these therapies might help them. If you're experiencing burnout — if you came into this career wanting to help people and have found yourself exhausted by the insurance system — these tools may have something to offer you, too. It's a dual-pronged approach that serves both the individual pharmacist and the broader community. Luke Halpern: And there is real momentum at the federal level. President Trump signed an executive order in April to accelerate psychedelic treatments for serious mental illness. What's your read on how that federal momentum — or potential friction — could shape the regulatory environment that pharmacists will ultimately be practicing in? MG Hornick: This is a loaded question. There have been movements before from various positions, but this is coming directly from the President as an executive order. Until we see actual legislation move forward or a drug get approved by the FDA, there's only so much we can do — and that is to prepare pharmacists by getting them the knowledge now. At the state level, we are already seeing dozens of states pushing psychedelic legislation through, whether for research, clinical studies, or decriminalization of natural medicines, as Colorado has done. People are aware that these substances are being used. For us, the goal is making sure pharmacists have the knowledge to help those patients understand what they're doing and what the potential consequences are. The momentum is encouraging, but until there's actual regulatory action, the best thing we can do is prepare. Jason Burge: And to build on what MG said — all of these developments are baby steps in a long journey. Every benefit also comes with complications, and that actually reinforces why the work we're doing matters. One challenge we need to stay aware of is ensuring that as this space enters the medical mainstream, it isn't entirely captured by large pharmaceutical companies in ways that could compromise access or integrity. The tension between synthetic and natural compounds is a real one. These substances have been used for thousands of years — this isn't brand new. I see this as approximately a 10-year trajectory toward something that is fully open and accessible. In the meantime, it's moving further into the Western medical realm, which is actually a safer route even if it's a slower one. And that's precisely why pharmacists need to be more involved, not less. Luke Halpern: That emphasis on education really is the foundation of everything. MG, as Education Committee lead, what does the PPF's educational agenda look like? What are the biggest knowledge gaps you're trying to address, and who is the primary audience — students, practicing pharmacists, or both? MG Hornick: The overall purpose of the PPF's educational offerings is to provide evidence-based, culturally sensitive, patient-centered education on psychedelic therapies to pharmacists, healthcare professionals, and the public. Society is being flooded right now with both the promise and the pushback around psychedelic medicine becoming a reality. We have nearly two decades of rigorous research — not counting the work from the 1950s or the long history of indigenous use — and a significant wave of media coverage. The previously stigmatized compounds underwent a psychedelic renaissance, driven by excitement about a potential breakthrough in mental health treatment. While the initial enthusiasm has somewhat tempered following the FDA's rejection of MDMA-assisted therapy for post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), the broader public is now far more aware of the potential of these medications. Localities are moving to decriminalize. States are calling for research funding. Some are outright legalizing certain psychedelics. Because these substances are now in the public sphere — even where they remain illegal — it is imperative that healthcare professionals, and pharmacists in particular, be educated on the mechanisms and side effects of these medications. Our goal is to be the reliable, evidence-based source that people can turn to — up to date, scientifically grounded, and free of both hype and stigma. Just the facts: what these medications do, how they can help, what to watch out for. For the public, that means knowing what to expect. For pharmacists, that means knowing how to counsel their patients. Personally, I love teaching student pharmacists because they are the ones going out into this landscape right now. But I also love teaching practicing pharmacists who are just now discovering this space. Many of them were trained in pharmacy school to view these substances as substances of abuse — full stop. Now they get to learn the mechanism of action and understand where these medications might genuinely help. That is lifelong learning, and it extends beyond the pharmacist to everyone around them. Luke Halpern: The stigma piece is so huge and so underrecognized — in so many areas of healthcare. Community pharmacists especially are embedded in their communities in a unique way. They really are great candidates to help dismantle that stigma. So for pharmacists who might be listening — curious, maybe skeptical, or simply unsure where to start — what is the first step toward getting involved with this community or with the PPA or PPF? Will Senneway: We would definitely encourage people to visit the PPA website, read our newsletter, and consider signing up for the Breakthrough Psychedelics course to get up to speed on the current landscape of drugs in development. And if you feel so inclined, please consider a donation to the newly formed PPF as we launch on June 20. Help be part of the movement. Jason Burge: Beyond financial support, this is a great opportunity to come with your ideas. We are developing as an organization — we have committees, we have needs, and it doesn't have to be a major time commitment. If you have an idea, bring it. If you have a question — or even an opposing thought — bring that too. That's how we learn. And I want to be clear: learning about this doesn't mean you have to support psychedelic therapy personally or practice in this space. "No" is a perfectly acceptable answer for yourself. But having the knowledge? There's no violation in that. It doesn't mean you support psychedelics — it means you support the possibility of healing for the people who come to you. Check out our websites. Ask questions. Learn along with us. MG Hornick: I'll second everything Will and Jason said. Check out our websites, and please tell us what you need. What knowledge gaps exist for you? What information would be most useful? We are volunteers who are passionate about this space and are willing to dig through the evidence and bring it to you in a way that's clear and accessible. That is what we are about. Please bring us your questions — even the controversial ones. Especially the controversial ones. Luke Halpern: You couldn't have said it better. You are all truly an inspiration in starting this foundation and working to educate the pharmacy community and prepare them for what is coming. As we close out, what does success look like for the Psychedelic Pharmacist Foundation five years from now? What would tell you that this work mattered? Jason? Jason Burge: The vision I have is hearing from the community that they learned about psychedelic therapies from their pharmacist — and that it happened naturally, without us having to drive it. That pharmacists become such an integrated part of psychedelic care that when someone says "healthcare and psychedelics," the natural next thought is, "Let's make sure the pharmacist is part of this." I'd love to see this become a standard part of pharmacy education and professional communications, and to reach a point where any healthcare professional can say, "This isn't for me personally, but it might be right for you — here's how it could help, within your care plan." That normalization is what we're working toward. Luke Halpern: MG? MG Hornick: For me, success is two-pronged. First, reducing stigma through evidence-based education — to the point where students aren't afraid to come to me with questions, and pharmacists aren't afraid to say, "I want to know more about this" or "My patient came to me with this, and I knew exactly how to respond because I completed this course." Second, ensuring there is a defined career path for pharmacists who want to work in this space. If we are on the ground floor and are included in the guidelines as psychedelic medicine develops, then pharmacists will truly have a role — and that opens the door for future pharmacists as well. Luke Halpern: And Will, you'll close us out. Will Senneway: Completely agree with my colleagues. To put it most succinctly: when we see real patients being helped by these therapies in the real world, and pharmacists are participating meaningfully in that continuum of care — that is when we will know we've been successful. Luke Halpern: One hundred percent. Thank you all for taking the time to have this very insightful discussion. I learned a great deal about the PPA and the PPF, and I hope our listeners did as well. This landscape is gaining real momentum in the United States, and it's only going to become more prevalent throughout our healthcare community. You can visit the PPA and PPF websites and explore all of the resources they have available. You can also follow Jason, MG, and Will on LinkedIn. I encourage you all to take some time, learn more about the PPF and the psychedelic landscape as a whole — because the momentum is continuing, and it will only become more relevant to pharmacy practice. Thank you, Jason, MG, and Will. And thank you all for listening to this episode of Pharmacy Focus. See you next time. ---