Latest / The Vietnamese with Kenneth Nguyen / 532 - What If Everything You Learned About Vietnamese National Heroes Is Wrong? - Viet Origins w. John Phan

Transcript

532 - What If Everything You Learned About Vietnamese National Heroes Is Wrong? - Viet Origins w. John Phan · The Vietnamese with Kenneth Nguyen

0:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to the Vietnamese podcast today.
0:03
[SPEAKER_01]: I have John back and it's been such a long, it's always seeming, it seems to be such a long time every time, but we are back together here.
0:12
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm ready to get back into all the new stuff.
0:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to the podcast, welcome back, John.
0:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks, Kenneth.
0:20
[SPEAKER_00]: It's good to see you.
0:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Hello, everybody.
0:21
[SPEAKER_00]: It has been a while.
0:22
[SPEAKER_00]: It's nice to be back.
0:23
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm really looking forward to getting to talking about these things today.
0:28
[SPEAKER_01]: So we're going to do, I mean, is it a departure from linguistics today?
0:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Are we going into more of history?
0:44
[SPEAKER_00]: What we'll do is we will leave kind of language, language history, language culture behind and we'll, you know, spread out.
0:52
[SPEAKER_00]: So our idea was that this, this sub series was about Vietnam origin.
0:56
[SPEAKER_00]: So a lot of exploring a lot of things that contribute to modern Vietnamese culture and where they came from.
1:03
[SPEAKER_00]: So I thought maybe today we could talk about, we could start a sub-sub-series about heroes, Vietnamese heroes, that kinds of figures from history, that Vietnamese people venerate, and there's, you know, a lot of, there's a lot of diversity there.
1:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Some of the people we might talk about are going to be known by everybody.
1:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Some people might not be known by anybody in the listening audience, but are very beloved and revered by other Vietnamese.
1:30
[SPEAKER_00]: So I thought instead of linguistics, we can talk about why, what these figures mean to us, why they mean those things to us, and where actually they come from in history.
1:43
[SPEAKER_00]: I am a language historian, so this is a little bit outside my wheelhouse, but it's something I care a lot about, you know, I do study pre-modern Vietnam, so it's still adjacent to my specific work.
1:55
[SPEAKER_01]: I love it.
1:56
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I got into a lot of hot water.
1:58
[SPEAKER_01]: I told you about the people that I got into
2:05
[SPEAKER_01]: certain people Vietnamese heroes from Vietnam is such a touchy and political move.
2:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Have a drink of safe, but I think when we start getting into a little bit more modern history, like street names in Vietnam, you know, I've lost friends over
2:25
[SPEAKER_01]: dinners because of this and clawing my way back all these years to to the good graces of the people that you know you know who I'm talking about and it's um you know it's a tough thing when we say Vietnamese heroes and we share some of this history with people in Vietnam but we don't share some of the modern political heroes that that exists in Vietnam
2:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's a good point, you know, like there's so I always say like there's no single Vietnamese identity, you know, I say all the time, but you know, at the same time, one thing that Vietnamese people are is no now, like Vietnamese people are very passionate and the responses are passionate and I, you're right, like who counts as a hero especially modern times man, that is a, that's a war zone.
3:18
[SPEAKER_00]: I do think high budget is safe, so it's good that we're starting with them.
3:21
[SPEAKER_00]: And we can even be on good scholarly ground.
3:23
[SPEAKER_00]: They are literally described as home, or at least, didn't cut, is described as heroic using that word home.
3:30
[SPEAKER_00]: So she is here in the very literal sense of that word, like a kind of martial hero.
3:35
[SPEAKER_00]: But it'll be interesting to talk about some other figures that might be a little bit less agreed upon.
3:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Can I ask you since you are a linguistics hero of mine?
3:47
[SPEAKER_01]: to talk about the word, whom we typically hear anger, but it's anger, whom mean
3:56
[SPEAKER_01]: like older man hero, or do we ever say to you, whom do we ever say, Engung for a woman?
4:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's a totally different word.
4:06
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a totally different word.
4:07
[SPEAKER_00]: So the Engung and Engung, it also means hero.
4:10
[SPEAKER_00]: So, Engung and whom are like bold and courageous.
4:13
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what Engung means.
4:14
[SPEAKER_00]: So, for example, the famous martial arts novel and TV show, Engung, that's not older by their home.
4:22
[SPEAKER_00]: It's Engung is a compound meaning hero.
4:27
[SPEAKER_00]: So, it's not gendered, but if you look at the way those words are used homes, specifically like they are generally male because in the East Asian or world view, the people who are strong, bold and courageous are male.
4:43
[SPEAKER_00]: So, it's culturally gendered, which is why it's actually interesting if you look at we're getting ahead of ourselves, but when you look at the origin of the description of
4:53
[SPEAKER_00]: It's surprising that she's described that way because it's not specifically male, but it's something that usually you would call a man in the first centuries You never heard anybody call a woman Yeah, or do you say new home?
5:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you'd say new I'm home right.
5:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's like saying heroin, you know, but you know, and is a good example because hero
5:16
[SPEAKER_00]: in modern English isn't technically gendered either.
5:19
[SPEAKER_00]: You can call her a hero.
5:21
[SPEAKER_00]: But then because there's a patriarchal culture, we assume that a hero is a man.
5:26
[SPEAKER_00]: So we have this word hero in, you know.
5:29
[SPEAKER_00]: That's great.
5:30
[SPEAKER_00]: So this is very linguistic.
5:32
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
5:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we're supposed to leave linguists.
5:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
5:35
[SPEAKER_00]: No, always bring it in.
5:36
[SPEAKER_00]: It's good, and it's important.
5:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
5:40
[SPEAKER_00]: So anyway, I thought we could begin with, let's remember those issues because I do want to talk about that when we get to the original source material for the jim sisters.
5:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
5:50
[SPEAKER_00]: I thought we could start with, and we could have a dialogue, maybe about this, like what the jim sisters represents to Vietnamese people, different Vietnamese people today.
5:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Why is it, for example, I'm asking you a question now.
6:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Why do you think it is that we do kind of agree upon the Jung sisters?
6:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Like everyone kind of is like, it's safe.
6:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Everyone seems to love the Jung sisters.
6:10
[SPEAKER_00]: What do they love the Jung sisters for more?
6:12
[SPEAKER_01]: I think other than being fantastic women, female figures.
6:19
[SPEAKER_01]: But this idea of driving the Chinese out is the anchor for me when I think about the
6:29
[SPEAKER_01]: I get conflicting reports as I talk to so many people about Havachung, you know, if it's fun-win who wrote the, you know, he wrote a novel about the Havachung scissors I talked to our friend MC Kim and then I hear that they really never, they didn't live, they actually died in China and there's actually a festival that celebrates their death.
6:58
[SPEAKER_01]: in China.
6:59
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm very conflicted about what actually happened.
7:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well, we will definitely get into that.
7:05
[SPEAKER_00]: But I agree with you that in the modern reception of the Qing sisters, the peace that for most Vietnamese people it resonates is driving out the Chinese, right?
7:14
[SPEAKER_00]: It's, excuse me, it's, um,
7:18
[SPEAKER_00]: It is like, it's both that they're women, which seems extraordinary.
7:23
[SPEAKER_00]: And it seems very unchinese to have female heroes.
7:27
[SPEAKER_00]: And then it's that they specifically are freedom fighters.
7:30
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think the first point to make is that, of course, that's a resin, who doesn't love an underdog freedom fighter?
7:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, that's Luke Skywalker.
7:42
[SPEAKER_00]: That's Benset's Leia.
7:43
[SPEAKER_00]: And so,
7:45
[SPEAKER_00]: That's all around the world, the freedom fighter who's fighting for a hopeless cause.
7:51
[SPEAKER_00]: That's another important piece of their story.
7:53
[SPEAKER_00]: If you think about their story, they're freedom fighters, they're fighting for freedom, and they're fighting against basically hopeless odds.
8:02
[SPEAKER_00]: And of course, they lose, right?
8:05
[SPEAKER_00]: those if you had to break down the myth of those of the two ladies, those are the maybe the core components and it would be a different story if they won, you know, and who doesn't love that story?
8:16
[SPEAKER_00]: There's so many stories like that and of course like Star Wars is like that story except that miraculously they win at the end of the story.
8:23
[SPEAKER_00]: But then
8:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Why is there anything specific to Vietnam that resonates with that kind of a story?
8:31
[SPEAKER_00]: I think you gave us already one of them.
8:33
[SPEAKER_00]: One of them is that China is the enemy.
8:35
[SPEAKER_00]: You know China is understood as the enemy.
8:38
[SPEAKER_00]: We've talked about that many times.
8:39
[SPEAKER_00]: We can historicize that by pointing to for for post 75 Vietnamese.
8:45
[SPEAKER_00]: So this is an important distinction.
8:47
[SPEAKER_00]: For Vietnamese and Vietnam, that is particularly
8:54
[SPEAKER_00]: spicy, that's not the word, that's not a reverent word, that's particularly moving because there was a whole war that Vietnam fought against China, right?
9:02
[SPEAKER_00]: The third Indo-China war, the Sino-Vitanymese war in the early 70s, so which was an although Vietnam technically won that war.
9:10
[SPEAKER_00]: It was at a very high cost, so people were truly traumatized.
9:14
[SPEAKER_00]: If you watched the brilliant movie, uh,
9:17
[SPEAKER_00]: when October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not October, not
9:42
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's built into our national identity that we have always been this state that has separated from China.
9:49
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, and you know, footnote to our earlier episodes about China and Vietnam.
9:55
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, that is a complicated history.
9:57
[SPEAKER_00]: And we don't want to take that at face value.
9:59
[SPEAKER_00]: But there's no denying that that is the shape of our national identity as it's been constructed.
10:05
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's an extra reason why, high by Jimmy is a kind of heroic story.
10:10
[SPEAKER_00]: right?
10:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Particularly meaningful to us.
10:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Go ahead, yeah.
10:14
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, somebody in private asked me, how is the podcast changed me?
10:20
[SPEAKER_01]: And when I think about these times where I get to sit with somebody like you, understanding the nuances of things are not black and white, things are never black or white.
10:32
[SPEAKER_01]: When you're
10:33
[SPEAKER_01]: healing back these layers of history and linguistics and and actual battles and wars.
10:39
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, we get to understand that.
10:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, just because we, you know, we lean in on this heroine two sister story, that isn't subtract the Chinese influence in our language.
10:53
[SPEAKER_01]: It sounds like it's very complicated.
10:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, exactly.
10:57
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what that is where I want to take us, you know, that exact
11:04
[SPEAKER_00]: contradiction if you want to put it that way, but that new ones, yeah, that new ones.
11:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Because we need to start by respecting that that's how that is the way in which we understand that the tin sisters, this really anti-Chinese myth about freedom and this idea that we have about Vietnam as a small scrappy, you know, underdog that fights for its freedom.
11:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Now that is also, of course, very complicated because if you look at history Vietnam is often
11:31
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not, it's very often, not the scrappy underdog.
11:33
[SPEAKER_00]: It is the bully, but it's the story that we tell ourselves.
11:37
[SPEAKER_00]: So if we accept that and we understand that we feel that way for those reasons, we can start to deconstruct it.
11:46
[SPEAKER_00]: But we have a responsibility to deconstruct it because otherwise,
11:52
[SPEAKER_00]: it's just unexamined.
11:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Why do we feel that way?
11:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Because we're Vietnamese.
11:55
[SPEAKER_00]: That is not the end of the story.
11:56
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the beginning of the story.
11:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Why are biar Vietnamese people that way?
12:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Why do we think that way?
12:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
12:03
[SPEAKER_00]: We have a responsibility really to examine those questions.
12:06
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, why?
12:09
[SPEAKER_00]: And what did the June sisters mean in earlier times?
12:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Because what we just said,
12:13
[SPEAKER_00]: is what the Jinxisters mean now, in this most recent moment of history where we have anti-Chinese sentiment, where we fought three wars, you know, multiple wars about the future of Vietnam.
12:27
[SPEAKER_00]: So all of those feelings are packed into our reception of the Jinxisters.
12:31
[SPEAKER_00]: What about earlier?
12:32
[SPEAKER_00]: You know?
12:33
[SPEAKER_00]: So if we move back in time,
12:36
[SPEAKER_00]: And you look at the jing sisters, there's really three main sources on which we build the legend of the jing sisters.
12:44
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's worth talking about each of those in in turn.
12:49
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think the first thing to notice that the jing sisters aren't like just like any eternal presence in Vietnamese culture.
12:58
[SPEAKER_00]: they rose.
12:59
[SPEAKER_00]: They were humans who lived on Earth.
13:01
[SPEAKER_00]: They did have a lifetime.
13:03
[SPEAKER_00]: They had a historical story.
13:05
[SPEAKER_00]: That story was recorded.
13:07
[SPEAKER_00]: And then that story that was recorded changed over time as it kind of grew and flourished in the soil of Vietnamese religion and culture.
13:17
[SPEAKER_00]: How do we know just like in linguistics?
13:20
[SPEAKER_01]: How do we know
13:23
[SPEAKER_01]: who what sources to trust at the end of the day?
13:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Because this whole thing about them dying in China versus like the actual tell that we hear, there's so much conflict in what the facts are.
13:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that is an excellent question.
13:41
[SPEAKER_00]: And there is really no way to know for sure.
13:46
[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, if you open up this, uh, chestnut is that the same, you know, then you do realize that so many of the things that we believe about history, about our own identity and culture, they're based on ultimately unknowable things, you know, that's why I like to say that, you know, identity really is constructed, it's not transmitted.
14:04
[SPEAKER_00]: It's reconstructed.
14:04
[SPEAKER_00]: It's reconstructed.
14:05
[SPEAKER_00]: It's reconstructed every generation.
14:06
[SPEAKER_00]: And when you go all the way back to the sources, then you find out that it was composed then too.
14:12
[SPEAKER_00]: But the field of history based on textual sources is about trying to determine what is more and what is less reliable.
14:23
[SPEAKER_00]: So we can talk about, for example, the oldest account of the gen sisters.
14:31
[SPEAKER_00]: the nature of that text.
14:32
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think we talked about this with Nam, but it's probably worth going over again as the main subject.
14:38
[SPEAKER_00]: But the main, the oldest, the oldest accepted written account of the Qing sisters is from a Chinese historical record, from the Han Dynasty.
14:49
[SPEAKER_00]: It's from
14:50
[SPEAKER_00]: What's called the book of the later Han, the whole Han Shua, the Chinese dynasty history of the second half of the Han dynasty.
14:58
[SPEAKER_00]: The Han dynasty was the first kind of long-lived dynasty of China from the Second Century BC.
15:05
[SPEAKER_00]: to the 2nd century CE, and it is the dynasty that first colonized the area of Northern Vietnam.
15:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Famously, that Jung Sister's story is about that effort of colonization.
15:19
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, Kenneth, I mean, everyone does love the Jung Sister's.
15:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you think it's worth retelling the story?
15:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it is, because I don't think everybody knows it.
15:27
[SPEAKER_01]: And I also have learned that to hear it from different professors,
15:33
[SPEAKER_01]: it's like different artists playing sort of the same song but in a different in their own stylized version.
15:40
[SPEAKER_01]: It's actually fascinating to hear when you talk about Namsi Kim talks about it, from when we talk about it.
15:48
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's all, you know, I want to hear your version have a jinx closer.
15:53
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's not because the facts are different.
15:55
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just because the way you
16:04
[SPEAKER_00]: When I made me nervous, I will tell a very simple version of it, but we will change that story when we get to the second and third versions of it in later in history.
16:17
[SPEAKER_00]: But there are two original accounts in the whole handful, in the book of later on.
16:23
[SPEAKER_00]: One is in the section on barbarians,
16:27
[SPEAKER_00]: And then the other one is in the section of the official biography of Maavian, Maian, the general who defeats the jim sisters.
16:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
16:37
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm going to combine those two accounts.
16:39
[SPEAKER_00]: And they're really very similar.
16:40
[SPEAKER_00]: One is longer than the other.
16:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
16:42
[SPEAKER_00]: But the
16:42
[SPEAKER_00]: The basic story is that by this time, the area of Northern Vietnam, it was called Zouti at this time.
16:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Zouti was already a commander of the Han Dynasty, but it had been administered pretty loosely.
16:55
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, before Zouti, which is the Han Commandery, it was its own state, probably as NAM pointed out.
17:03
[SPEAKER_00]: So based on the area of gold, that big ancient citadel, right?
17:07
[SPEAKER_00]: And then the Han conquered it.
17:09
[SPEAKER_00]: And the Han conquered it, maybe, actually almost 100 years before this point.
17:13
[SPEAKER_00]: So many decades before this point.
17:16
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sorry, that's not true.
17:17
[SPEAKER_00]: It's about 100, it's like 40 years or something like that.
17:22
[SPEAKER_00]: I got to look back at my dates, but it's just, it's a few decades.
17:26
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not 100 years.
17:28
[SPEAKER_00]: And then what's happening is so if you look at the account, the only thing that it says is that there are these two ladies and they really isn't talk about Jingyi, really talks about Jingjia, Jingjia is the older sister, Jingyi is the younger sister and she is bold and courageous, she's home zoom, those are the two words that are used to describe her.
17:49
[SPEAKER_00]: And she is the daughter of a captain of Mailing, which is this area, just sort of between Hanoi and Gola, sort of northwest.
18:05
[SPEAKER_00]: northwest of Hanoi and you in that area you can sort of look north west to the mountains up the red river and you can look down into the plain of the red river plains, very strategic area.
18:15
[SPEAKER_00]: So she is some kind of an aristocrat, right?
18:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Because she's the the Han writer says she's the daughter of this captain of the area, this leader.
18:25
[SPEAKER_00]: and then she's married to this man who is not very important in the story and then the governor, the Han governor, his name is Suding.
18:34
[SPEAKER_00]: A thoughting, sorry, combined his Chinese and his Vietnamese
18:45
[SPEAKER_00]: controversy in this line of the text, because as you will see later people read this to mean, thoding, the governor entangled her husband and loss.
18:55
[SPEAKER_00]: It's ambiguous in the Chinese, because you don't need to use pronouns, just like Vietnamese.
19:00
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't need to always specify the pronouns in literary Chinese.
19:04
[SPEAKER_00]: But I and many other people are convinced that it's clearly
19:15
[SPEAKER_00]: So one question you want to ask yourself immediately is what happened there?
19:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Like what is the real impetus of the revolt?
19:21
[SPEAKER_00]: And we can talk about that if you're interested.
19:24
[SPEAKER_00]: But the rest of the story is that she overruns the commandery.
19:27
[SPEAKER_00]: She overruns vast territories of Zauzi up into, you know, Zauzi stretches from Hanoi to Guangzhou.
19:35
[SPEAKER_00]: So people like to say she even invaded China, but it's not really true.
19:38
[SPEAKER_00]: She just she gathered support across the region,
19:45
[SPEAKER_01]: So, I am interested in, yeah, what you just said, the conflict.
19:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, the conflict?
19:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
19:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Why does she revolt?
19:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well, if you read the line, it doesn't explain itself.
19:58
[SPEAKER_00]: So, what's clear is that,
20:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I'm like, do I want to, can I tell the rest of the story?
20:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Because the end of the story helps understand that.
20:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't it?
20:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Of course, of course.
20:10
[SPEAKER_00]: So she revolves, she gather support across all of these territories.
20:15
[SPEAKER_00]: She meaning they, but really, Jen Jack is clearly the main figure here, right?
20:21
[SPEAKER_00]: And they hold the capital, you know, and then the governor is so desperate that he
20:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Maavya, who is this very celebrated general who had just defeated the Shonu in the West, the Northwest, the Shonuara.
20:43
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, like the quote unquote Hans and Mulan, those are actually the Shonu.
20:46
[SPEAKER_00]: So he just defeated them.
20:48
[SPEAKER_00]: And so Vampir is like, okay, go down and pacifies out he.
20:53
[SPEAKER_00]: So he goes down, he brings a huge Navy with him.
20:57
[SPEAKER_00]: We have turated ships, their ships with like kind of towers on them, and he raises a militia of local soldiers along the way, as he travels from the north all the way through southern what is now southern China into Zouti, and then he you know, he wages a war with them, he eventually corners them and defeats them.
21:19
[SPEAKER_00]: executes them and executes thousands of their followers.
21:24
[SPEAKER_00]: So I can look up the exact number, but a large number of what we assume to be aristocrats of what we call the domiciline cultures.
21:34
[SPEAKER_00]: And I kind of gloss that over, but this is not in
21:39
[SPEAKER_00]: There is no description of drums or anything like that in the Hanukkahown, but most scholars and archaeologists assume that the junksisters were participants in this, whatever the domes and cultures were, right, that they were kind of like
21:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe the last aristocratic lineage of whatever that state was that had been slowly around slowly suppressed over the four decades or five decades since the Han colonized the region.
22:06
[SPEAKER_00]: So one interpretation of the story is, sorry, let me finish the story.
22:11
[SPEAKER_00]: So executes the junksisters and all of the thousands of their of the main leaders, which we think of as maybe the aristocratic class, and then he spends a bunch of time negotiating
22:25
[SPEAKER_00]: And doing what is described as reconciling Viet and Han Law.
22:30
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's Viet regulations and there's Han regulations and remember the impetus of the rebellion was legal.
22:38
[SPEAKER_00]: So he spends time working out.
22:42
[SPEAKER_00]: some kind of new legal system based on the Han law, and that law is now the law of the land, right?
22:49
[SPEAKER_00]: And then he leaves.
22:51
[SPEAKER_00]: And we assume that all those thousands and thousands of troops that came down with him, they didn't, they stayed, right?
22:57
[SPEAKER_00]: They settled in the area.
22:58
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's another influx of Northern
23:04
[SPEAKER_00]: What did, what was the impetus of the rebellion?
23:07
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of theories.
23:09
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of theories, like a popular theory that is
23:13
[SPEAKER_00]: There is absolutely no evidence for, but it's interesting to think about and people like it for national reasons, is the idea that it was a matrilineal society, you know that like property was passed from mother to daughter and, you know, on society's patrilineal father to son.
23:34
[SPEAKER_00]: So it could be that the governor was like, you don't know on the property and check was like, what the hell?
23:40
[SPEAKER_00]: And then started a rebellion.
23:42
[SPEAKER_00]: It could be something like that.
23:43
[SPEAKER_00]: There's no evidence for that, but we do know it was some kind of legislative thing, which means the Han colony was going from, you can basically do your own thing, but just pay your taxes to us, to you are a real part of the empire, and you have to obey Han Imperial Law.
24:00
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's the friction point.
24:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Like a few decades into colonization, the local people are like, we don't want to live like that, you know?
24:11
[SPEAKER_00]: And then that's why the story ends with Maavye and reconciling Viet and Han law to create this new Han-based law that will govern Zouti from that point forward.
24:21
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's the general outline of the story.
24:24
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of really good colorful details.
24:26
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a great speech, Mafia, and gives to his troops about how he was a failure his whole life.
24:31
[SPEAKER_00]: And now this is his moment.
24:33
[SPEAKER_00]: But where do they get that speech?
24:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Is it in the records?
24:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, this is the record of it.
24:38
[SPEAKER_00]: So this story isn't his biography.
24:44
[SPEAKER_00]: So presumably the historians collected resources like documents as well as stories about him and compiled them into his official biography.
24:54
[SPEAKER_00]: There may or may not have been an actual speech document, but the sources of the Dynastic Records includes primary sources like that.
25:05
[SPEAKER_01]: And so this is a little bit more concrete than all the other details that are about Habachin, myviets, I'm so curious about what makes it into records in an archaeological sense and in linguistic sense, and what does it make it?
25:21
[SPEAKER_00]: I would such a good question.
25:22
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, this is a kind of rabbit hole about how the dynastic chronicle is is created.
25:28
[SPEAKER_00]: So the Han, you really want to talk about this for a few minutes.
25:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, 100%.
25:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I need to know, you know, this is.
25:37
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that we have we might have some good listeners who can maybe fact check a little bit for me here Okay, so bring it on in if you're listening, but essentially first thing to note is that the Han, the whole The book of later, Han, Ho Han Chu is the second of the Han Dynastic records, right?
25:53
[SPEAKER_00]: There's the Han Chu and the Ho Han Chu and those two books are some of the earliest
25:59
[SPEAKER_00]: full-dynastic chronicles we have in the history of China.
26:02
[SPEAKER_00]: The earliest full-one is called the Shriji.
26:06
[SPEAKER_00]: It was also written during the Han Dynasty.
26:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Shriji is Suki and Vietnamese, like David Suki.
26:12
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the same Suki.
26:14
[SPEAKER_00]: So that was a private project that this man Suma Chan did to kind of make sense of the rise of the Han Dynasty.
26:23
[SPEAKER_00]: And all of the later dynastic chronicles,
26:26
[SPEAKER_00]: are used his dynastic chronicle as a model.
26:31
[SPEAKER_00]: And see if you want to understand how the Ho Hanshu was constructed, you have to understand the Preston of Shuchi.
26:37
[SPEAKER_00]: And Shuchi, based itself on basically three different types of materials.
26:42
[SPEAKER_00]: One.
26:43
[SPEAKER_00]: actual primary documents.
26:45
[SPEAKER_00]: So he took court records, letters, speeches, he collected as much of that stuff as he could.
26:51
[SPEAKER_00]: That's one set of his resources.
26:53
[SPEAKER_00]: The second thing he collected were stories from people, interviewed people around the empire, and then the third thing is his own
27:05
[SPEAKER_00]: And on that last note, you've got to remember that he was trying to make moral sense of history.
27:10
[SPEAKER_00]: There was this incredible upheaval in the history of China, right?
27:14
[SPEAKER_00]: The first empire had risen the Qin dynasty, then Du Huang, if you know him, and then he fell because of various reasons and then the Han rose.
27:24
[SPEAKER_00]: So he was trying to make sense of all these huge changes in history.
27:29
[SPEAKER_00]: So, he's not just giving us a record, he's telling a story of all of the events of Chinese history in order to try to make sense of the, in order to make it into a intelligible narrative.
27:40
[SPEAKER_00]: So, that is inherited by the Dynastic Chronicles in the Han moving forward.
27:45
[SPEAKER_00]: So, when the Han create a chronicle, they're trying to make moral, ethical, political sense of everything that's happened.
27:54
[SPEAKER_00]: So, it's not just a straight record.
27:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, it is massaged into a form that has a kind of ethical immoral
28:08
[SPEAKER_00]: editorial ship to it.
28:10
[SPEAKER_00]: That said, they also were very, you know, you don't want to dismiss it for that reason because they were incredible, like record keepers.
28:18
[SPEAKER_00]: And they also believe that if without actual reliable information, you would not be able to get at the actual sense of what was happening.
28:27
[SPEAKER_00]: So if your information was wrong, then your interpretation of those events is going to be wrong.
28:32
[SPEAKER_00]: So that
28:35
[SPEAKER_00]: faithfulness to the historical fact, that is quite impressive.
28:44
[SPEAKER_00]: Now the actual question is, what is the fact and what is not is really difficult to determine?
28:49
[SPEAKER_00]: It's really difficult to determine.
28:50
[SPEAKER_00]: But from later, we have dinosaur chronicles all through history, and what emerges
29:05
[SPEAKER_00]: And so with that practice, we see that it's probably kind of the similar thing happening in the Han Dynasty.
29:09
[SPEAKER_00]: And we can see a great degree of faithfulness to events.
29:12
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, in all likelihood, I would say there was some document or some preservation.
29:19
[SPEAKER_00]: of what Ma, you had said to his troops that night.
29:22
[SPEAKER_00]: He's a really famous general, super celebrated.
29:25
[SPEAKER_00]: He certainly had a secretary, his secretary almost certainly wrote that speech for him.
29:30
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, so there was probably some record of it.
29:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe the record didn't survive, but maybe a story of the sense of the speech did, who knows.
29:39
[SPEAKER_00]: But certainly the words you read as his speech are probably not the words that he spoke on that night.
29:45
[SPEAKER_00]: You know?
29:46
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's about as much as we can say about that.
29:48
[SPEAKER_01]: But the general messaging is there.
29:50
[SPEAKER_01]: It's actually clearer than the facts of the different battles and stuff that Hippachin went through.
29:57
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's just because when you have the money and the resources to record or to write it, you come from a more position of power.
30:06
[SPEAKER_01]: And you have people recording this stuff.
30:10
[SPEAKER_01]: The records are very different.
30:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
30:13
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's the important thing, like think about it.
30:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Like the most detailed account of how I genuinely have is in Maavians, myography.
30:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Do the ging sisters have a biography?
30:23
[SPEAKER_00]: They have an entry in the southwestern barbarians, right?
30:26
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's super short.
30:27
[SPEAKER_00]: And there are no words recorded by the ging sisters that have survived, not a single word.
30:33
[SPEAKER_00]: And for that matter, we don't know what they spoke.
30:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe they didn't speak Chinese.
30:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Probably almost certainly it was not the first language.
30:41
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, you know, maybe a kind of the idk was their first language, you know, so I just have no idea, you know, but as I say in my class, maybe it wasn't the idk, it could have been a Kradile language, we really don't know.
30:53
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't know, yeah.
30:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so I think the the thing to take away from that first, I highly recommend people read it, I guess there isn't really
31:03
[SPEAKER_00]: The email me, I can send you my translation.
31:06
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's really interesting to read the original, the earliest description of their lives.
31:14
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, because they are the thing, as we move forward to the next account of them, the thing to observe in these stories is that is the language and in which they're described.
31:25
[SPEAKER_00]: So they are described again, Homesum, Jingtaq is daring and heroic, right?
31:31
[SPEAKER_00]: And then she, what does she name herself when she takes over the Commanderi?
31:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Vulong.
31:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, she's not new, she's just king, she's just king, so that means that Han Chronicle was like this woman named herself king didn't feel the need to qualify her as a queen.
31:54
[SPEAKER_00]: and didn't feel the need as we'll see later to justify the fact that she was heroic and bold.
32:01
[SPEAKER_00]: And a lot of some scholars think that that is okay because the Han scholars who are writing this book think of her as a barbarian.
32:10
[SPEAKER_00]: They don't think of her as Chinese, right?
32:13
[SPEAKER_00]: So she's from a whole other world.
32:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Therefore in that world women can be bold and courageous.
32:19
[SPEAKER_00]: That's
32:20
[SPEAKER_00]: who knows like there there beyond the pale right the people in the red river plane are totally not like us so they can have bold courageous women and their women can even name themselves king right and that is that is the thing that's to to observe because that is those very few lines are why so many scholars like to imagine red river plane society before the
32:45
[SPEAKER_00]: right because we see no hesitation in describing the Jew sisters as the leaders.
32:53
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, Jim Tex has been as a non-character, like they have one line about that she's married to him, right?
33:00
[SPEAKER_00]: I always forget his name.
33:01
[SPEAKER_00]: It was Drew some Julia and I think it's his name in Chinese, right?
33:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, no, no, no, his name is T-Secret, who's Julien?
33:09
[SPEAKER_00]: That's where he's from, okay?
33:11
[SPEAKER_00]: But he's really not a character.
33:13
[SPEAKER_00]: So those are the Jung sisters now.
33:16
[SPEAKER_00]: No.
33:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's fast forward over a thousand years.
33:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Then does anyone know that?
33:22
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not a classroom.
33:23
[SPEAKER_00]: What do you do in a classroom?
33:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, is anybody know?
33:25
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just as it is.
33:27
[SPEAKER_00]: One of the next mention of the jinxes is in the written record is that survives.
33:33
[SPEAKER_00]: So the next is in a text called Viet in Ooling that very important book from the Jedi Dynasty from the 13th century, right?
33:41
[SPEAKER_00]: So really early.
33:44
[SPEAKER_00]: And what it is, this is the time in which it's a collection of descriptions of spirits of the Viet realm.
33:55
[SPEAKER_00]: So Viet means the realm of the Viet.
33:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
33:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Ooling, that is a collection of the hidden spirits of the Viet realm.
34:04
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's a way.
34:05
[SPEAKER_01]: But when you say spirits, are you meaning like like go spirits and and then or you sing the spirit of the people or you talk about alcohol right?
34:18
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a good question.
34:19
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not happening.
34:21
[SPEAKER_00]: But it is, it is not the spirit of the people.
34:23
[SPEAKER_00]: It is super not ghost spirits.
34:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, some of them are ghosts.
34:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Some of them are historical figures.
34:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Some of them are like fairies or gods.
34:33
[SPEAKER_00]: And some of them are like nature spirits.
34:34
[SPEAKER_00]: So like the closest, like if you, if you know like what a Communist and Japan is a coming, that's what it is.
34:42
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a shun in China.
34:44
[SPEAKER_00]: It's any kind of potent supernatural force.
34:48
[SPEAKER_00]: And there are different types.
34:50
[SPEAKER_00]: So, and if you know Vietnamese folk religion is still like this, did like, what is this one, if you become a spirit, like it's because you're an efficacious in some way, but like your origin could be anything, you could be in a mortal spirit, or you could be the God of this mountain, or you could be some girl who got murdered in by this tree, you know?
35:13
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's many different origins, and if you read the video, denuelling it up, it's divided into different types.
35:19
[SPEAKER_00]: The first is kings, they're called kings, but they're kind of like historical leaders that became spirits, and then there are ministers who are kind of like that, and then there are some other types of spirits.
35:30
[SPEAKER_00]: So high button is in the king's sort of section.
35:36
[SPEAKER_00]: So why did this book get written?
35:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Sorry, do you have a question?
35:39
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I just want to ask in the comment section, how many people
35:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Is this the first time you've ever heard of this situation of like I never knew that there's a book, I mean, it sounds like a book of spirits like the hierarchy of spirits or just breaking down, you know, but how many how many of us know, this is the first time in my life that I've ever heard that the Vietnamese have this this book of descriptions of spirits.
36:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you know, it's interesting because I'm sure almost everyone in the audience will know the people, at least some of the people, in the book, like me, a, you know, me, a, the child princess.
36:23
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if you, there's a very famous jail story about her, but not yet like I know them.
36:28
[SPEAKER_00]: There's like I know about her, but there's a lot of figures that I'm sure that if you look at the table of Canis, you be like, oh, I know who those people are, but I'm sure in Vietnam, I'm pretty sure that they teach it in.
36:38
[SPEAKER_00]: High school like you you learn about who they are.
36:41
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm pretty sure if it's Americans or the the diaspora have not heard of this book for the most part.
36:46
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I've never I love what you can imagine.
36:49
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sitting here, you know, my jaws, you know, dropped.
36:53
[SPEAKER_01]: I cannot believe that there's this
36:56
[SPEAKER_01]: things like this.
36:58
[SPEAKER_00]: We need a good English translation, but there is one that I use in class that my teacher did, but it's kind of for the classroom, not for like popular real.
37:06
[SPEAKER_00]: But a lot of the, this and the other book we'll talk about, the two books, those two books are the basic source for all of them, like go thick Vietnam, like if you buy a
37:17
[SPEAKER_00]: fairy tales of Vietnam, but you know, all those food, all those food, those people, they're all from these two books.
37:25
[SPEAKER_00]: That's where they're from.
37:26
[SPEAKER_00]: So this book, the first one was written was commissioned by the John Dynasty Emperor.
37:33
[SPEAKER_00]: People think because this is a time of the Mongol wars, when the Mongols were invading Vietnam.
37:38
[SPEAKER_00]: So it was a way of kind of
37:41
[SPEAKER_00]: It was a way of cataloging like what spiritual resources there were in the kingdom like we need everything we can get like our Buddhist monks are chanting 24 hours a day to make sure that the Buddha is on our side and that we have like you know that sort of righteousness that's supporting our war effort.
37:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Now we're going to look across the countryside like what gods or
38:10
[SPEAKER_00]: this sort of war effort.
38:11
[SPEAKER_00]: So the the Judd collectors went out across the countryside and they they documented all these different religious cults that were being practiced across the Vietnam at that time.
38:23
[SPEAKER_00]: And then if they were deemed efficacious, if like
38:27
[SPEAKER_00]: They were like, okay, this is a spirit that clearly is truly powerful as not some nonsense, some village nonsense.
38:33
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, then then the Emperor bestowed a title on that spirit.
38:38
[SPEAKER_00]: And so like, you'll get a spirit, then gets an official title by the Emperor.
38:42
[SPEAKER_00]: He's like, like, I think the, the two sisters get,
38:46
[SPEAKER_00]: the title of something like something something like the luminous loop the bright light emitting ladies.
38:53
[SPEAKER_00]: So light emitting right just something like that.
38:56
[SPEAKER_00]: So they get a title recognize but the emperor which means what does that mean?
38:59
[SPEAKER_00]: It means now your spiritual power is
39:03
[SPEAKER_00]: is kind of hired by the empire, you know, by the kingdom, rather, by the Vietnamese kingdom.
39:08
[SPEAKER_00]: So it was a way of tethering all these different religious practices to the central court to the throne.
39:14
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's just an invaluable resource because it's the only glimpse we have of popular religious practice.
39:22
[SPEAKER_00]: in early about early Vietnam.
39:24
[SPEAKER_00]: And it is collecting calls and practices that might have existed as far back as the hunt, you know?
39:30
[SPEAKER_00]: So we really don't know.
39:31
[SPEAKER_00]: It's the only real substantive record we have, description we have of religious practices.
39:38
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's just filled with very interesting things.
39:41
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I would love to talk about everyone in this book one day, but the two sisters are in it.
39:46
[SPEAKER_00]: So go ahead.
39:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
39:47
[SPEAKER_01]: I am blown away by you and I've been working for like a year or, you know, roughly, and this is like, you just blown the doors open to like a brand new portal of who you are to me, you know.
40:02
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sitting in an atmosphere in all like this is totally different brand.
40:07
[SPEAKER_01]: This is totally different podcast now It's a a major departure from you know the work that you and I've been working through in linguistics.
40:18
[SPEAKER_01]: This is like a whole body of like knowledge that is deserves its own subseries, you know like you're two here we go, you know
40:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely, it's such interesting stuff and, you know, I always makes me feel a little sad when I see Vietnamese like creatives, like producing, trying to brand Vietnamese culture and produce it, and they just don't have, you know, they don't realize how many riches they have to draw on, you know, like, and these two books is where you should start if you're interested in pre-modern Vietnamese religious,
40:54
[SPEAKER_00]: practice or cultural stories, myths, legends.
40:56
[SPEAKER_00]: This is where it, it's not where it begins, but it's our earliest sources of those things.
41:01
[SPEAKER_01]: You know what makes me, it rattles me is that, this is a very simplistic way of explaining how I feel.
41:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I feel like I've been fed fun, but
41:18
[SPEAKER_01]: for all these years, but yet like there is like maybe a hundred more dishes that can't from a thousand more dishes and ancient times that we know nothing about, but instead all that we can never talk about is gum, fah, and benmay, right?
41:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
41:37
[SPEAKER_01]: And now we get to know that wait, there's all these other, you know,
41:42
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a plentitude of, there's a source, two sources where we can dig deeper into and, and, and, and, you know, talk about myths, legends and, and Fables that the, the, um, that the Vietnamese have.
41:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that is, uh,
42:02
[SPEAKER_00]: something I care a lot about too, you know, like we should be a little gentle with ourselves and to buy ourselves now.
42:07
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean Vietnamese Americans.
42:08
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean the diaspora because we are especially, and we're first of all, something of Vietnamese people often Vietnamese and Vietnam don't, it's difficult for Vietnamese and Vietnam to understand is that
42:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Vietnamese Americans, Vietnamese in the diaspora, we are minorities.
42:24
[SPEAKER_00]: You're not a minority if you're Vietnamese in Vietnam.
42:27
[SPEAKER_00]: We're if you're king in Vietnam.
42:28
[SPEAKER_00]: You're the majority.
42:29
[SPEAKER_00]: So you don't know what it's like to be a minority and then have all of the intrusions or obstacles between you and your own culture that exist in a space where you are a minority.
42:40
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think, you know, Fah, but me, you know, that I like the way you put it, because we are starved for
42:47
[SPEAKER_00]: our own culture and it's very difficult for us to reach it, you know, and we're all and we there's also the trauma of the war.
42:54
[SPEAKER_00]: So then
42:56
[SPEAKER_00]: what we are able to reach for is this very, it's squeezed through this teeny tiny pigeonhole of trauma, migration and the minority experience.
43:05
[SPEAKER_00]: And then we're just very, like we're desperate for those things.
43:09
[SPEAKER_00]: So of course, you know, but me, father, you know, that those things mean a lot to us.
43:15
[SPEAKER_00]: But the privilege of now a few generations haven't gone by is that we can open up that pigeonhole.
43:22
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, so yeah,
43:24
[SPEAKER_00]: it's a good thing to do.
43:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I appreciate you.
43:28
[SPEAKER_01]: I really do want to work on these characters and these two books because I think knowing these little details and getting into the niche of the spirits and we can learn more about the history of Vietnam through ways that
43:46
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's like learning about the saints, you know, like why we force fed the lives of the saints in the Christian world or I want to know more about the Vietnamese saints.
43:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and at this point, I want to issue a kind of warning to people because I think I hope that everyone has that curiosity, you know, but the thing I want to make sure that people do when they go
44:10
[SPEAKER_00]: crack open that book and they look at these different accounts is they don't look for the thing that they think is Vietnam Like you know, and then like I'm only gonna care about some scrappy underdog fighter You know, that's Vietnam to me and that's the story.
44:23
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm gonna look for it Because then you're gonna only ever be eating but me Like and there is so many other things to eat, you know, you didn't move culture.
44:31
[SPEAKER_00]: So
44:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Really, you have to open your mind to be like, what else is Vietnam?
44:36
[SPEAKER_00]: What else, what other things are in there?
44:39
[SPEAKER_00]: That might be interesting, that might resonate, that might challenge you, I think, that I am, who I think Vietnam is.
44:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Because then you're going to be ready to really engage with those materials.
44:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, our subsurs is Vietnamese origin.
44:54
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think that it's all fair game at this point to really dig deep into more of these characters.
45:00
[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, and I know that you had more to talk about today, but I mean, we're still right in the, you know, feels like we're right in the middle of having a tune and not even done yet.
45:09
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think that we can save.
45:11
[SPEAKER_01]: You want to talk about the next two names that you had brought up as as a trio in this sub series episode.
45:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure, do we have time to talk about what we do?
45:22
[SPEAKER_01]: We do, I'm just putting it out there.
45:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, so I think maybe the next person, not today that we might want to tackle is someone that this kind of like the opposite of high budget, like everyone's driven on that street or everyone has the image of them in their minds.
45:41
[SPEAKER_00]: But this guy is named, excuse me.
45:44
[SPEAKER_00]: This guy is named, Sineep.
45:47
[SPEAKER_00]: he's often called seafood.
45:49
[SPEAKER_00]: He is King Sea.
45:52
[SPEAKER_00]: He was the governor of Zauti at the end of the Han Dynasty and after the Han Dynasty and he for for most of history was one of the most revered figures in Vietnamese history.
46:05
[SPEAKER_00]: He's very interesting because he's both revered
46:09
[SPEAKER_00]: as a loyal Han governor when the Han Dynasty is crumbling and as an independent Vietnamese king.
46:16
[SPEAKER_00]: So he is a very kind of like
46:19
[SPEAKER_00]: internally contradictory figure, but was universally revered until very recently in Vietnam still has a temple and it has a home town, you know, like his tomb is in Vietnam.
46:31
[SPEAKER_00]: So, he is a good contrast with the Jinx history, because first of all chronologically he is living at the end of the Han Dynasty and they're living in the middle of it.
46:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Like they're living at the beginning really of the Han colonization, right?
46:47
[SPEAKER_00]: And he's living at the end of the Honda honesty.
46:49
[SPEAKER_00]: And you even see how different the northern Vietnam or the area of Zelgi was culturally in his time versus their time.
46:58
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think he's a good one to pick up next time.
47:01
[SPEAKER_00]: But of course, if people have a figure that they really are curious about, they should shout it out, you know, and we can pivot or we can include them or contrast them if people are interested.
47:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Sounds good.
47:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he sounds super interesting.
47:14
[SPEAKER_01]: And you're like, you know, he's a big figure, but I've never even heard of him.
47:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, he's such a big figure that I think if I'm wrong, I could be wrong, but I think he is the first person in the the King's section of the in the ring top.
47:27
[SPEAKER_00]: I think he's the first entry.
47:29
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that gives you a little bit of a sense.
47:31
[SPEAKER_00]: He's also like, just in case people are like, ah, Han Gavron here about that.
47:34
[SPEAKER_00]: He's also like a
47:38
[SPEAKER_00]: credited with bringing Buddhism to Vietnam, like the first Buddhist temple was constructed supposedly under his watch.
47:47
[SPEAKER_00]: And then he was like, how did he get this information?
47:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Who was he to get this
47:57
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, handed to him.
47:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Where did he get it from?
47:59
[SPEAKER_00]: And what business did he have of spreading this stuff?
48:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, he is really pivotal.
48:05
[SPEAKER_00]: He's involved in a story about this girl who gets magically impregnated or baby-trend into a stone.
48:13
[SPEAKER_00]: It becomes a miracle.
48:15
[SPEAKER_00]: There's this crazy story that he's involved with.
48:19
[SPEAKER_00]: but he is like the king at that time.
48:21
[SPEAKER_00]: So he really is this pivotal pivotal figure in Vietnamese history of the beginning of an idea of their being a king of Vietnam.
48:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Even though he's the Han governor.
48:30
[SPEAKER_00]: So like it's interesting to me that he's so little known in the diaspora now because he is such an important person.
48:39
[SPEAKER_00]: He's almost he is very king Arthur like it is
48:44
[SPEAKER_00]: But we can talk about him next.
48:46
[SPEAKER_00]: And the other people I mentioned were the two most and like famous historical duo, which there should be a good HBO series about Leyla, the first emperor of the Ley Dynasty, and we entire his minister, such a good story.
49:00
[SPEAKER_00]: And two very famous people.
49:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I can't wait.
49:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Also, Freedom Fighters, they were the ones who kicked at the main, so they're also beloved.
49:08
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, John, I, I'll be honest with you.
49:10
[SPEAKER_01]: I did have this idea to go over all of these names.
49:16
[SPEAKER_01]: three years ago, four years ago, and many of my family and close friends of Vietnam said don't do it.
49:23
[SPEAKER_01]: You can get roasted at the, you know, they're going to roast you because you don't know if Lela or if Winchai or, you know, how a young or who these names today are politicized under and you can't go in not knowing what the hell is going on.
49:41
[SPEAKER_01]: And here we are, we're about to do this
49:46
[SPEAKER_00]: strap in, we'll see, drop it in the comment section, it's like, yeah, we're in, let's go.
49:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, but should we get back to high button growth?
49:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so I think, you know, we've been talking about this really interesting book, we had in Hoolink that there is a great new translation and Vietnam for those interested.
50:05
[SPEAKER_00]: And the jing sisters are in it, right?
50:08
[SPEAKER_00]: So this is the second time we see them.
50:10
[SPEAKER_00]: There must have been, there may have been other records of them in between the Han Dynasty and the Judd Dynasty.
50:16
[SPEAKER_00]: That's like over 1,000 years, right?
50:18
[SPEAKER_00]: That's like 1,200 years of history that has elapsed.
50:22
[SPEAKER_00]: But nothing survives until we get this book.
50:25
[SPEAKER_00]: And in this book, so the way the book is constructed, so once again there are sections and they are in the sovereigns or the king's section.
50:33
[SPEAKER_00]: And each of the entries, the first half of it is essentially a regurgitation of their historical biography.
50:41
[SPEAKER_00]: And, and, and if you read that, it is, you can tell right away, it's basically the author read the whole hunchu.
50:49
[SPEAKER_00]: They read those two sections, and they use that as the basis for this.
50:54
[SPEAKER_00]: And in, in most cases, the little biography is almost word for word from the Chinese dynasty record.
51:01
[SPEAKER_00]: And then there is a second section, which is the, the miracle section.
51:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
51:05
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'll get to the miracle section in a minute.
51:09
[SPEAKER_00]: But there are some things about their biography that are interesting to know.
51:14
[SPEAKER_00]: So the first thing is that if you read the way their biography is described here, there is a couple.
51:28
[SPEAKER_00]: impetus for the rebellion.
51:30
[SPEAKER_00]: So, in this version of the story, suiting a keep on combining his Chinese invading with him, doting kills to the tax husband.
51:41
[SPEAKER_00]: So she's furious that her husband's murdered and therefore starts a rebellion.
51:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Just think about the first second.
51:47
[SPEAKER_00]: How different is that from they entangled her with law that restrained her with legal proceedings and she got furious?
51:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Right now, her husband is murdered and therefore,
51:58
[SPEAKER_00]: She rises her, she raises up and then when she, you know, overruns the commandery, she names herself, new, whoo, queen, right?
52:08
[SPEAKER_00]: So what is, how do we account for those differences?
52:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Why does this Vietnamese version of the story?
52:15
[SPEAKER_00]: All of a sudden give the death of her husband as the impetus for her.
52:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Rebellion and why now are they calling themselves queens in this account as opposed to just kings any ideas like why why the difference I don't know I can I'm sitting here thinking about it.
52:31
[SPEAKER_00]: There's no I don't know it's a this it's a really interesting contrast right yeah it's really interesting one explanation which I think a lot of our
52:49
[SPEAKER_00]: is that, oh, there must have been some other biographer you're record in those thousand years that detailed the fact that Jing-Jex, that her husband was killed.
52:59
[SPEAKER_00]: And that detail now survives.
53:01
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's actually totally plausible.
53:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Like there could have been some other record.
53:06
[SPEAKER_00]: But if that's the case, why didn't it make it into the jail?
53:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, when every other detail is essentially that's present,
53:14
[SPEAKER_00]: is replicated, right?
53:16
[SPEAKER_00]: So it really does look like an edit editorial ship.
53:19
[SPEAKER_00]: It's something added rather something that has been preserved, you know?
53:25
[SPEAKER_00]: So the other possibility is that you've got to think about who the writer is and what their positionality, what their attitude on the Jung sisters is.
53:33
[SPEAKER_00]: In the Han record,
53:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Who is the author and who is the audience?
53:37
[SPEAKER_00]: The author is a Han person or Han people.
53:40
[SPEAKER_00]: The audience are Han, right?
53:42
[SPEAKER_00]: They're Han people.
53:43
[SPEAKER_00]: And who are they describing?
53:44
[SPEAKER_00]: A non-Han alien, an exotic person, a barbarian.
53:50
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's, as we talked about, there's no weirdness about
53:54
[SPEAKER_00]: a barbarian woman being bold and courageous or acting in a quote-unquote manly way.
53:59
[SPEAKER_00]: And there's no, in fact, it's even more kind of delicious.
54:02
[SPEAKER_00]: It's even more kind of exoticizing to be like, the barbarian women or queens in this land, right?
54:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, it sort of works because it's so weird to the haunt mind.
54:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Now fast forward to the jundine esteem.
54:15
[SPEAKER_00]: The juncers are in the King's section of vidion, owing to them.
54:20
[SPEAKER_00]: That means they're a spirit that's being claimed by the vidimis emperor.
54:25
[SPEAKER_00]: So from the perspective of the vidimis, this is the first time the juncers are not barbarians.
54:31
[SPEAKER_00]: I know that's weird for us to hear because we just think of them as Vietnamese, but they were not Vietnamese.
54:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Vietnam did not exist in the Han Dynasty.
54:38
[SPEAKER_00]: And from the point of view of the record and the people who lived there, the Han people, they were aliens, right?
54:44
[SPEAKER_00]: So now in the, in the, in the, in the 14th century, they're being claimed as, as native, as local.
54:52
[SPEAKER_00]: So then we've got, but who are the Vietnamese in the 13th century?
54:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Are they the dumb son?
54:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Are they this matrilineal, matrilocal society that builds huge bronze drums?
55:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Is that no, right?
55:05
[SPEAKER_01]: No, they've moved on from that, right?
55:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, read my book.
55:08
[SPEAKER_00]: There's been over a millennium of speaking Chinese, of reading Chinese, of studying Confucius, of worshiping the Buddha.
55:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, those things have penetrated, not only penetrated, but they've grown up in the soil of Vietnam.
55:24
[SPEAKER_00]: So now the Vietnamese authors of Vietnam, the Vietnamese researchers who went and encountered the cult of the Jung sisters and were documenting for this book.
55:36
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, and I should pause and say that's how it worked, right?
55:38
[SPEAKER_00]: They went out.
55:39
[SPEAKER_00]: They found the temple to the junksisters and they were like, there's a temple here.
55:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's look at it.
55:43
[SPEAKER_00]: They probably went there and they were told the story of these two ladies and they were like, let me go back to my home.
55:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Let me read my, they're like, they're, they're worshiping the junksisters how interesting they go back to their home.
55:55
[SPEAKER_00]: They pull off their shelf.
55:56
[SPEAKER_00]: the Ho Han Shua.
55:57
[SPEAKER_00]: They have a copy of the Han book, right?
56:00
[SPEAKER_00]: And they read they're like, okay, this is the version of the story and our elite history of the, you know, our own elite history.
56:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Now I got a reconcile that with the fact that these people in the village are worshipping two ladies.
56:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, the original record calls them kings and their bold and courageous, but it doesn't make sense to me as a confusion, a Vietnamese confusion man, to be like, that a woman would have rebelled with no womanly motivation.
56:30
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm going to add this in home.
56:32
[SPEAKER_00]: It makes sense now to me that, you know,
56:35
[SPEAKER_00]: that it's because her husband was killed.
56:37
[SPEAKER_00]: So now she's a good, faithful, confused woman.
56:39
[SPEAKER_00]: She's loyal to her husband.
56:42
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's the reason why she's, you know, that's the reason why she's ribbelling.
56:46
[SPEAKER_00]: So now I can assign something that's intelligent to me.
56:49
[SPEAKER_00]: And I want to point out that the fact that modern Vietnamese are deleting that detail,
56:53
[SPEAKER_00]: they're deleting the confusion, understanding of high-budging and making her a freedom fighter.
56:59
[SPEAKER_00]: They're doing the same thing because they're like, I want high-budging to be a freedom fighter.
57:03
[SPEAKER_00]: I want her to be a female hero.
57:05
[SPEAKER_00]: I want her to be, and it may or may not be true that that's more
57:09
[SPEAKER_00]: faithful to the original, but certainly the modern Vietnamese who are thinking that they're not going back to the whole handshu and saying this is more authentic.
57:16
[SPEAKER_00]: They're thinking that's the hero that I need from this story and that's what they're pulling out.
57:20
[SPEAKER_00]: So don't be too hard on the John Dynasty editors who are creating this story because they're doing the same thing.
57:25
[SPEAKER_00]: They're like, I need a hero that makes sense to me and what makes sense to me is a loyal wife.
57:31
[SPEAKER_00]: and the juniors in the ruling that our loyal wives, that's who they are, you know, and you know, they do start a war, but because they're according to the editors, they're loyalty to their husband is so fierce, you know, that they stand up to impossible odds.
57:48
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, John, this is so fascinating.
57:50
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there's like two, three versions depending on how you go.
57:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's moving back and forth.
57:56
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like living breathing or a living breathing, sort of document or story.
58:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
58:04
[SPEAKER_00]: It is a living document.
58:05
[SPEAKER_00]: It really is a living story.
58:06
[SPEAKER_00]: There are two things I want to add.
58:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Excuse me.
58:10
[SPEAKER_00]: One is the important detail that whoever those gen editors were,
58:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Because the class of the editors, they were literate Chinese readers and writers.
58:22
[SPEAKER_00]: They were almost certainly confusions, and they might have also been Buddhists, you know.
58:27
[SPEAKER_00]: So they were coming from a kind of, for lack of a better word, a kind of elite ideological place, but they lived alongside, like, the other thing that's important about this book is that it's evidence that there was this incredible popular religious landscape.
58:46
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, we're probably not Buddhist, probably not confusions.
58:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Probably didn't have any of this idea in their head.
58:53
[SPEAKER_00]: And the way when you read the book, the way the editors described it is that they're like, we went out and these villagers are worshiping these two ladies.
59:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Like they say basically the people of the area.
59:06
[SPEAKER_00]: They tell the story of their law of the King's Sisters' lives.
59:09
[SPEAKER_00]: And then they say the people of the area felt pity for them.
59:12
[SPEAKER_00]: They felt moved by their sacrifice.
59:16
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, so, and that very well might be true, and if that's true, that means that there was a kind of worship of them going all the way back to the Han Dynasty, and it's just a local worship.
59:26
[SPEAKER_00]: And I find that very convincing, because that happens all the time in Vietnam today, you know, I can tell you a story, there's a temple called Teng Yem in the North, which is now a Buddhist temple, but there is a banion tree, there's a Keda in that, in that,
59:40
[SPEAKER_00]: temple compound and there was um i don't remember the faulty a child's of the story because it was told to me by the monks there but i think it's during one of the wars, a little girl or two little girls were shot or were killed by a car accident something like that i think it was a car accident
59:57
[SPEAKER_00]: And their spirits are associated with that banion tree.
1:00:00
[SPEAKER_00]: And they were worshipped, you know, as spirits of that banion tree.
1:00:03
[SPEAKER_00]: And now it's kind of sad now the Buddhists are like stopped doing that, because it's like inappropriate.
1:00:08
[SPEAKER_00]: But that's an example of probably the process by which the juniors developed a call.
1:00:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Because there was some kind of...
1:00:15
[SPEAKER_00]: local perception of the emotionality of the trauma or the tragedy, and then there's a worship of it, you know, and then it grows up over all of these centuries.
1:00:23
[SPEAKER_00]: And then by the 13th century, these core officials are coming, they're like, what are you guys worshiping, you know?
1:00:29
[SPEAKER_00]: And they tell the story.
1:00:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Let me, so that's, I think, very interesting.
1:00:34
[SPEAKER_00]: There's, sorry, there were three things.
1:00:35
[SPEAKER_00]: There's two more things.
1:00:36
[SPEAKER_00]: The second thing is, although I believe that that is very likely possible origin story for the cult of the jim sisters, I think you might have talked about this with Nam Kim, but it's also very common
1:00:48
[SPEAKER_00]: across Southern China and Southeast Asia, to worship like twin female spirits, like sisters.
1:00:56
[SPEAKER_00]: First of all, the ging sisters are not even twins.
1:00:58
[SPEAKER_00]: They're always depicted as twins for some reason, but they're not.
1:01:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Like gingjak is definitely the elder, but there is a common cult, and the origin stories of the spirits vary greatly, but it's always like two female
1:01:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Southeast Asian worship of two female spirits, the origin of which is unclear, and that merged into the James history of story.
1:01:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Now the last thing I'll say about this before if we have time to go on to the last version is that it's really cool.
1:01:34
[SPEAKER_00]: The second half is the miracle story, right?
1:01:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Because in order to make it into this book, you have to show that you're an efficacious spirit.
1:01:43
[SPEAKER_00]: the story that is recounted in this book that's evidence of the power of the Jim Sisters is that in a lead dynasty emperors, I'm Lee, I'm Thomas the name of the emperor, so he's the previous dynasty from the John Dynasty, right?
1:02:01
[SPEAKER_00]: So 100 years ago before
1:02:04
[SPEAKER_00]: these these officials are collecting the story.
1:02:06
[SPEAKER_00]: He there's a drought in his time.
1:02:09
[SPEAKER_00]: There's no rain.
1:02:10
[SPEAKER_00]: He orders like his Buddhist monk to pray for rain and it doesn't work.
1:02:15
[SPEAKER_00]: And then he has a dream and in his dream these two ladies appeared him very famously they're wearing a green robe red trousers and they're riding a metal horse.
1:02:26
[SPEAKER_00]: And you hear the sound of drums or thunder
1:02:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Following that, maybe in the metal horse, like, so that's the image that he sees in the dream, and he speaks to them, and they're like, we are the genesisters.
1:02:40
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, that's who we are.
1:02:42
[SPEAKER_00]: You can look us up.
1:02:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:02:45
[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, and the juniors should say, we are commanded by two days, two days, God on high, to provide rain for you.
1:02:56
[SPEAKER_00]: And then the next day, there's rain.
1:02:57
[SPEAKER_00]: And the kingdom is relieved by this miracle.
1:03:02
[SPEAKER_00]: And then every time that the peasants or the villagers pray for rain or pray for something,
1:03:06
[SPEAKER_00]: at the junster's cult, they receive it.
1:03:09
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's always the thing in building them, that gets you to be a spirit.
1:03:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Like if you pray and then the spirit responds, then you're a good one.
1:03:20
[SPEAKER_00]: You're a good one to come.
1:03:22
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's what the junster's do.
1:03:24
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I want to, again, issue a warning because
1:03:28
[SPEAKER_00]: a modern reader might be like, oh, this is like the patriotic Vietnamese spirit helping out the Vietnamese kingdom.
1:03:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe, I mean, in a kind of sense it is, but it's, but be careful because they say we are commanded by two of them, two of them, they is shank tea.
1:03:45
[SPEAKER_00]: That is the the Taoist, not the Taoists, but the Chinese highest god.
1:03:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
1:03:51
[SPEAKER_00]: So the highest God in the Chinese Pantheon is Shanti.
1:03:55
[SPEAKER_00]: So Shanti, you know, again, the authors are doing the same thing.
1:03:59
[SPEAKER_00]: They're like, we believe in the Chinese Pantheon.
1:04:04
[SPEAKER_00]: So they have tethered a local Vietnamese powerful Vietnamese spirit to the elite system of religion that they understand to make right with heaven and to get sort of the thing that they need which in this case is rain.
1:04:17
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, yeah, go ahead.
1:04:19
[SPEAKER_01]: If you think about the Catholic beatification system on St.
1:04:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Hood, it's kind of like it runs kind of parallel.
1:04:28
[SPEAKER_01]: You give a little history of who the St. was, what, you know, how they lived.
1:04:34
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you have a period where you accept submissions about their miracles.
1:04:41
[SPEAKER_01]: So, we're...
1:04:43
[SPEAKER_00]: It's exactly the same and it's a really universal human thing.
1:04:46
[SPEAKER_00]: I would say there is a few components, one, there is a popularity to that figure, to the elite or the moralizing or the religious agent looks for a kind of moral that they exemplify and then three.
1:05:03
[SPEAKER_00]: There has to be a prayer and a resourceful response.
1:05:07
[SPEAKER_00]: So like shout out, I'm a huge Dolly part and fan.
1:05:10
[SPEAKER_00]: I am crushed by her death.
1:05:12
[SPEAKER_00]: But she, I can see if Dolly part lived in Dundas and you're not going to be the same thing.
1:05:16
[SPEAKER_00]: So you're already a super popular.
1:05:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Like you can identify kind of generosity of spirit with her.
1:05:21
[SPEAKER_00]: That is a kind of immorality.
1:05:23
[SPEAKER_00]: The only thing that's missing is that some orphan child praised a dolly and then get saved and then she's going to become so that is what happened to the
1:05:33
[SPEAKER_00]: How little the miracle might have to do with their actual life story, right?
1:05:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Like sometimes it's editorialized to make more sense, but in this case, think about it.
1:05:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Not only is she re-described or re-edited or re-created rather to be a loyal wife, for that to be her virtue rather than boldness, you know, or something like that.
1:05:56
[SPEAKER_00]: But then the miracle is reign of all things.
1:05:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Has nothing to do with freedom, has nothing to do with independence, has nothing to do with any of that.
1:06:02
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, it's a very interesting practice, you know.
1:06:06
[SPEAKER_00]: But what we can see is that already the junctions were an important religious focal point.
1:06:11
[SPEAKER_00]: But look how differently they meant, like they signified to Vietnamese people in 13th century.
1:06:18
[SPEAKER_01]: you have a lot more work to do in the next coming months and years.
1:06:24
[SPEAKER_01]: I appreciate today's episode so much and I would love to hear comments.
1:06:32
[SPEAKER_01]: I would love to hear thoughts in the comment section.
1:06:36
[SPEAKER_01]: This has been such a delightful episode.
1:06:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much, John.
1:06:41
[SPEAKER_00]: It's been great to talk about them.
1:06:43
[SPEAKER_00]: I just want to think in one last thing.
1:06:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, we do.
1:06:46
[SPEAKER_00]: But the last account, and we can talk about it next time, is in another book called Lingnam Chiquai.
1:06:52
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you have time and you're listening, check out that book, you know, look it up online because that's where the next account of the Jinsisters will appear.
1:06:59
[SPEAKER_01]: But that's like Ghost and Spirit book.
1:07:02
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just his true book.
1:07:04
[SPEAKER_01]: No, it's a Ghost and Spirit book.
1:07:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
1:07:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
1:07:06
[SPEAKER_00]: And check out that book, you know, look it up online, because that's where the next account of the Jinsisters will appear.
1:07:12
[SPEAKER_00]: But that's like Ghost and Spirit book.
1:07:13
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just his true book.
1:07:14
[SPEAKER_00]: No, it's a Ghost and Spirit book.
1:07:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, hidden spirits from the Vietnam, collection of hidden spirits from the Vietnam, and the second one is called lignam tequai, which means strange stories plucked from lignam.
1:07:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Lignam is a poetic name for yet now.
1:07:34
[SPEAKER_00]: So, um, those are the two books.
1:07:36
[SPEAKER_01]: John, thank you so much and we will see you very soon.
1:07:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Great to see you.
1:07:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks, uh, great to be back.
1:07:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks, John.
1:07:46
[SPEAKER_01]: is with Kenneth Wind.
1:07:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Special thanks to Brittany Tran, to Jane Wind, Catherine Wind, Tina Fam, Sydney Jamie, and Crystal Tran.
1:07:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Please find us on Instagram, Facebook and TikTok at the Vietnamese podcast.