Latest / The You Project / #2214 The Evolving Addiction Landscape - Mick Hall

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#2214 The Evolving Addiction Landscape - Mick Hall · The You Project

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: I'll get a champs. It's Harps, Harps with an S,
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: it's a tiff with two f's, and it's Mick with
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: two f's. Don't ask me, I'll tell you later. Hi, Michael.
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: Ray, Hello?
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: Hello?
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: Are you not too bad?
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: Champion? And Jimmy and Cook over there at TYP Central
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: just fucking the life force, the blood that flows through
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: the typ veins. Well, that's what she puts on her website.
• 0:31
  Speaker 3: Much it's on my business card.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I'm the gun, I'm the weapon. You know
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: you're good. Since you come out of your shell and
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: you post those thirty videos of yourself a week, you've
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: really done well, like that whole introvert thing you've mastered that.
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: Thank you a money kidding. I like your stuff. I
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: think also, more importantly, a lot of you know dudes,
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: but I think a lot more ladies as well relate
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: because you know, you're not a twenty two year old.
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: Nothing against twenty two year olds, they're great, but you're
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: what are you forty three or two? I should know.
• 1:07
  Speaker 3: That's an excellent question.
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: Forty three forty three year olds just out there doing it,
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: just living your best life, navigating bloody hormones and biceps
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: and carbs and fucking life, just doing the drill. It's
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: a hard yards. So we're going to talk about addictions today.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: What's the closest thing, Tiffany and cook that you have
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: had or currently have that may not be an addiction,
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: but it could be. Or it could be an obsession
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: or something that you think way too much about or
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: focus on way too much, or is there anything in
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: there or has there been for you that's you would
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: call it? It might even be like just a psychological addiction.
• 1:50
  Speaker 3: I really have to think hard about that, not to pick,
• 1:52
  Speaker 3: not to think of one, but just to narrow it
• 1:55
  Speaker 3: down to one.
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: Really, we'll just give us in the top five.
• 2:03
  Speaker 3: Well, sugar, hello, chocolate, h yes?
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: And what happens to you if you don't do sugar? Like,
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: what's the mental, emotional, physical up outcome of that?
• 2:16
  Speaker 3: I would say that it's more waves with me. So
• 2:18
  Speaker 3: it's not like, you know, it's not like I would
• 2:22
  Speaker 3: have convulsions if I couldn't get sugar, but I do.
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: I do go through these waves of just it becomes
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: quite you know, a thing that I have to wrangle
• 2:31
  Speaker 3: in because it is disruptive and starts to consume too
• 2:36
  Speaker 3: big a slice of my daily calorie pie.
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: I thought you were going to say you're cognitive attention,
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: Like I've seen you in a state emotional and or
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: psychological physiological where you almost can't hold a conversation unless
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: you get something that looks or tastes like a brownie.
• 2:57
  Speaker 3: So when I had a real job and a real bo,
• 3:00
  Speaker 3: I used to buy a big I used to buy
• 3:02
  Speaker 3: blocks of old gold and give them to my boss
• 3:05
  Speaker 3: and he would hide them, and I would ask him
• 3:07
  Speaker 3: to only ration me two rows a day, and he
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: would hide them, and quite often I would find them
• 3:13
  Speaker 3: when I worked overtime, and I would go on the hunt.
• 3:16
  Speaker 3: And once I had to leave the room so he
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: could get it for me, and I found that he
• 3:23
  Speaker 3: was hiding it in the ceiling up in the little yeah,
• 3:27
  Speaker 3: the little square bits that you you know, Yeah, So
• 3:30
  Speaker 3: that would they were the lengths?
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: And what would would you get angry if you couldn't
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: get what you wanted?
• 3:38
  Speaker 4: No?
• 3:39
  Speaker 3: But I'd just be like, I just what I'd have
• 3:41
  Speaker 3: to have it. I'd be like, I've got a I
• 3:44
  Speaker 3: need to have that chocolate, but you need to only
• 3:46
  Speaker 3: give me two rows, because if I have the whole block,
• 3:48
  Speaker 3: I will eat the whole block until I feel sick,
• 3:49
  Speaker 3: and then I will feel sick, and I will be
• 3:53
  Speaker 3: angry that I've eaten it all. But then the moment
• 3:55
  Speaker 3: I stopped feeling sick, I will eat any remaining chocolate
• 3:58
  Speaker 3: that is there.
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: All right now, I don't know if Michael, I don't
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: know if Michael Cedric call It agrees with what I'm
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: about to read you. We'll come to you in a moment, Mick.
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: And yes, you are the addiction expert, but we're just
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: putting you on the shelf for the moment we'll get
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: to you. Addiction is a condition in which person a
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: person develops a strong, often difficult to control, urge tif
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: to use a substance Chocolate's a substance, or engage in
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: a behavior despite harmful consequences. That's interesting. That sounds a
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: little bit like you. Yes, yes, but Mick, you and
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: I spoke off air and we're talking about so there's
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: the kind of this is the wrong word, but you
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: get it like the traditional like what we would see
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: as the typical addictions of you know, drugs and booze
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: and perhaps pawn and gambling and the things that people
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: come into treatment for but people do. People often go
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: from one addiction to another, like is that their personality
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: as well as an actual biochemical addiction?
• 5:09
  Speaker 4: That absolutely is, and it's I mean, you know, some
• 5:12
  Speaker 4: crossing addictions is just so common. And in fact, when
• 5:16
  Speaker 4: you think about it, the majority of us have some
• 5:21
  Speaker 4: sort of form of We the majority of us, but
• 5:23
  Speaker 4: a lot of people have some sort of form of
• 5:26
  Speaker 4: addiction running through them at any given time. So one
• 5:30
  Speaker 4: thing that I like to well first before we get
• 5:32
  Speaker 4: into all of that, I love the way you call
• 5:36
  Speaker 4: me Michael Sedric Hall.
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: I love that.
• 5:39
  Speaker 4: And I've actually actually had a friend of mine saying
• 5:44
  Speaker 4: I can't believe your middle name Cedric, and I said, well,
• 5:48
  Speaker 4: it's not, I.
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: Said, Harts just calls me that.
• 5:52
  Speaker 4: Yeah, So I'd like to set the record straight, Hars,
• 5:54
  Speaker 4: because I've got to set it straight.
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: My middle name is Clive and it's not a.
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: Lot batter, but it's definitely not you want to start.
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: I'm very well known.
• 6:04
  Speaker 4: I amber there are a lot of people in this
• 6:06
  Speaker 4: planet like to say Michael Clive Hall.
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: So I just want to put that out there. I
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: had to just look that up.
• 6:14
  Speaker 4: So thank you, thank you, great, thank you for letting
• 6:17
  Speaker 4: everyone astray and.
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: So yeah, so this so this addiction stuff, it's really
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: sort of to me.
• 6:27
  Speaker 4: It's to me, it's really interesting, you know, because a
• 6:29
  Speaker 4: lot of people fixate on the behavior or the substance
• 6:35
  Speaker 4: as being the center of the addiction and it's really not.
• 6:41
  Speaker 4: And I mean I try and sort of sing this
• 6:45
  Speaker 4: tune to whoever will listen, and normally people don't listen
• 6:49
  Speaker 4: until they're ready to. But the tune is this, and
• 6:53
  Speaker 4: that is that the addiction comes in the person, it
• 6:56
  Speaker 4: doesn't come in the substance. So not everybody that drinks
• 6:59
  Speaker 4: alcohol is going to be an alcoholic. Yes, So so
• 7:05
  Speaker 4: there's a there's a there's a few things that are
• 7:08
  Speaker 4: involved in it. But when we sort of look at
• 7:09
  Speaker 4: the brain and we think about, you know, what is
• 7:12
  Speaker 4: an addict? What is an addict chasing the chasing escape
• 7:16
  Speaker 4: and they're chasing our freedom feeling or a feeling. And
• 7:21
  Speaker 4: the thing that gives us feeling or pleasure in our
• 7:25
  Speaker 4: life is that There's a number of different neurochemicals, but
• 7:27
  Speaker 4: one of them is called dopamine. It's a well known,
• 7:33
  Speaker 4: well known one, and dopamine addiction is largely about what
• 7:39
  Speaker 4: substance will behavior, can I find that gives me the
• 7:43
  Speaker 4: dopamine release in my brain that I really need and
• 7:46
  Speaker 4: want and that I'm craving and I can get that.
• 7:50
  Speaker 4: And food is a beautiful way of doing that. But
• 7:53
  Speaker 4: so is but so is falling in love, So is sex,
• 8:00
  Speaker 4: So is ex the size, so is gambling. So there's
• 8:06
  Speaker 4: many behaviors that aren't about putting a substance in the body.
• 8:10
  Speaker 4: They're about they're about triggering a response in our brain
• 8:14
  Speaker 4: that gives us the relief we're looking for, the relief
• 8:17
  Speaker 4: from what, the relief from what, and well, a relief.
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: From a lot of things.
• 8:24
  Speaker 4: And genuinely, what it comes down to is it is
• 8:29
  Speaker 4: a feeling of everything's okay, that I can handle what's
• 8:33
  Speaker 4: going on in my life, whatever that is. And it's
• 8:36
  Speaker 4: not the people are walking around going oh no, I
• 8:38
  Speaker 4: can't cope. But it's this feeling of unease that sits
• 8:43
  Speaker 4: within the person. And then we do that pleasurable thing.
• 8:46
  Speaker 4: We have that yummy, that yummy biscuit. Like when Tiff
• 8:49
  Speaker 4: was talking before and were saying about the chocolate, and
• 8:52
  Speaker 4: you asked if Tiff gets angry or whatever if she
• 8:56
  Speaker 4: can't have her chocolate or can't get her sugar or whatever.
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: For a lot of people, that isn't issue. They get
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: what's called we have a.
• 9:02
  Speaker 4: Loving term that they call, Oh I'm hungry, meaning I'm hungry,
• 9:07
  Speaker 4: so I'm getting angry and annoyed and irritable. Well, that's
• 9:10
  Speaker 4: the actual symptoms of addiction. Irritable, restless, distent until I
• 9:15
  Speaker 4: can get that relief which comes at once by using
• 9:20
  Speaker 4: the substance or the behavior or the food that triggers
• 9:25
  Speaker 4: the dopamine response that relieves that irritability.
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: And quite often, I mean I'm the same.
• 9:29
  Speaker 4: Quite often i can be really hungry, and I can
• 9:31
  Speaker 4: be not all that good a person to be talking
• 9:34
  Speaker 4: to about anything, and then I'll eat and then I'm like, hey,
• 9:39
  Speaker 4: now let's have a chat.
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: No problem on it as gold. It's almost the food
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: is yeah. It's like the dopamine is the addiction, or
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: the addiction is I'm addicted to getting out of pain.
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: I'm addicted to changing my states so I feel calm
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: or less anxious, or less overwhelmed or less terrified. Like
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: the addiction is to get our brain and our emotions
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: and our body into a state where we feel better.
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: Then we tend to feel a lot of the day.
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: But there are just different pathways. It's like there are
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: different vehicles metaphorically that you can hop in or that
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: you can utilize to create that outcome. It's like for
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: some people lying on Like for Tiff, she loves her animals,
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: and if she's lying on the bed with her animals,
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: I'm sure her physiology and a biochemical state what's happening
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: in her brain is different to if she was just
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: lying there by herself, right, And because it changes emotionally,
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: mentally and also biochemically what's happening. But yes, and so
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: this is and I guess there are certain levels of response,
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: like you said, exercises one where you go for a
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: run and your body's producing dough for me and doorphins
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: and maybe a bit of serotonin and all of these
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: things that make you feel pretty good. And then I guess,
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: like you and I have seen this, we're talking about him.
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: We've talked about a mutual friend of ours, the ox,
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: who has said this publicly, so we're not throwing him
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: under the bus. But you know, his drug of choice
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: in Inverticoma's originally was gambling. Well that's the one that
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: got all the attention. If I'm right, And then I
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: remember working with him at a SCN and watching him
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: sit in the studio with like two kilograms of lollies
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: and then he I don't know what order it was,
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: but he never drank coffee, and then he was having
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: fucking thirty coffees a day. And then what are cigarettes like?
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: Because he was a precial athlete, he didn't smoke, then
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: he started like smoking for Australia like it was an
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: Olympic event. You know. It's just like, is there a
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: name for that? When we kind of go from from
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: addiction to addiction or from substance to substance, what is
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: that called?
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: It's called swapping the witch for the bitch? What swapping
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: the witch for the bitch?
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: That's I don't know that that's okay to say on here.
• 12:23
  Speaker 4: Well we just said it. And the other name for
• 12:26
  Speaker 4: it is cross addiction.
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: Right, Well, that sounds much more grown up and professional.
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: I wish I had a start it there. I wonder sometimes.
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: Too grown up professionally it's under the wrong way.
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: That's true. I wonder sometimes about like the social component
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: of addiction. And by that I mean, let's say booze
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: is your drug of choice, you go away you do.
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: You go away. That sounds bad, but you go, you
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: do your thirty days or your sixty days of rehab,
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: and you're with a bunch of people who are focused
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: on getting better and not drinking and not using, and
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: eating good food and going to the gym, you know,
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: like in your program and doing good things. And then
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: you walk away from that environment and all your past friends,
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: all your social connections, all the people that you are
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: familiar and comfortable with, they're still where they were, which
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: is still using and still drinking. That must be a
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: real challenge for people because I guess in a way,
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: maybe some people really need to disconnect from the people
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: of their past, or some of them absolutely.
• 13:40
  Speaker 4: I mean it's and look, you know, if you're going away,
• 13:44
  Speaker 4: you're going to read have you've done you thirty days,
• 13:46
  Speaker 4: You've come out, You've come back into let's call it
• 13:50
  Speaker 4: real life.
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: And there's all of the old connections in there.
• 13:53
  Speaker 4: And one of the things that we will tell people,
• 13:55
  Speaker 4: and this is why it's very difficult for people in
• 13:57
  Speaker 4: the beginning, because we really need to stay out of
• 14:01
  Speaker 4: the old environment and and stay away from the old playmates,
• 14:04
  Speaker 4: play toys and play places, you know, and and that
• 14:08
  Speaker 4: can feel quite lonely to begin with, right, And it's
• 14:11
  Speaker 4: not easy, and who's going to actually do that unless
• 14:15
  Speaker 4: there's a real desperate need. And most people, let's face it,
• 14:18
  Speaker 4: most people that come into rehab, they don't get up
• 14:20
  Speaker 4: one day and go, you know what, bug of this,
• 14:24
  Speaker 4: I'm stick of hurting myself and the planet.
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: I'm going to go and do something about myself. That's
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: not what happens.
• 14:29
  Speaker 4: What happens is that life becomes so bad, the consequences
• 14:34
  Speaker 4: are so severe, and people people, and life around us
• 14:38
  Speaker 4: is being destroyed, and so we've got to go and
• 14:41
  Speaker 4: do something about it. And so go into rehab to
• 14:44
  Speaker 4: change our lives. And then we say, okay, well when
• 14:47
  Speaker 4: you when you when you leave rehab, you've got to
• 14:51
  Speaker 4: step away from your old mates and your old and
• 14:54
  Speaker 4: your old crew. It's not that big to ask, really,
• 14:59
  Speaker 4: when it I'm saving your own loss.
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: Do you reckon Michael Cedric, that's right, do you reckon
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: that addiction? I feel like this is I've never read
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: this anywhere, I've never heard it, but to me it
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: makes sense. I think sometimes addicts become temporary sociopaths because
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: their whole life is about getting drugs or booze, getting
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: a fix, whatever we want to call it. Right, and
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: so they kind of don't give a fuck about anyone else,
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: right by virtue of the pain and the discomfort that
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: they are in emotionally, mentally, physically. And so while they
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: do on a level love their friends and family, that
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: all kind of gets put on a shelf for a
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: while because you are so obsessed with looking after you
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: and getting what you want and what you need that
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: that's kind of almost just a product.
• 16:02
  Speaker 4: You just you coned it beautifully. I mean, that's exactly
• 16:05
  Speaker 4: what happens. I mean, you know what can't be Like
• 16:09
  Speaker 4: a lot of people say that, you know with addiction
• 16:11
  Speaker 4: that I'll come on, it's a choice. You're making bad choices,
• 16:13
  Speaker 4: and you're you're not taking the consideration other people around
• 16:17
  Speaker 4: you and you and you're this, your that and the
• 16:20
  Speaker 4: other thing. And I guess at some level you know
• 16:23
  Speaker 4: that's partially true. That's that's part of it. But that
• 16:27
  Speaker 4: stuff is controllable. I mean, give it enough circumstances, you
• 16:30
  Speaker 4: can choose not to pick up a drink or a
• 16:32
  Speaker 4: drug or go and do an evictive behavior. If someone
• 16:35
  Speaker 4: puts a gun to your head and says, if you
• 16:36
  Speaker 4: go and do it, I'm going to shoot you.
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: Well, then you just won't go and do it. That's
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: pretty simple.
• 16:42
  Speaker 4: But what you can't change, and this is the bit
• 16:45
  Speaker 4: that you know, unless you're an addict, that's hard to
• 16:47
  Speaker 4: understand this, But the very thing that you can't change
• 16:50
  Speaker 4: is that deep down internal in the core, in the
• 16:54
  Speaker 4: most primal part of your brain, that belonging and craving,
• 17:01
  Speaker 4: a need to feel, that feeling that can only be
• 17:05
  Speaker 4: produced by the addictive behavior.
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: And although I might be.
• 17:08
  Speaker 4: Able to choose not to engage in the addictive behavior
• 17:13
  Speaker 4: for a period of time, I can't stop that internal
• 17:16
  Speaker 4: longing and that and that deep down craving.
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: And it's not like craving.
• 17:21
  Speaker 4: Chocolate, right, not to put that down, but that's that's kindergarten, right.
• 17:28
  Speaker 4: So we're talking about something that that registers in the
• 17:31
  Speaker 4: addicts brain almost as though life itself depends on it.
• 17:35
  Speaker 4: A bit like how your brain makes you breathe when
• 17:39
  Speaker 4: you're asleep. You're not thinking about geely breathing, you're just
• 17:42
  Speaker 4: doing it. The same with this, same with this craving
• 17:46
  Speaker 4: is that deep down primal longing and its torture and
• 17:50
  Speaker 4: it's there. There is no suffering like it, and we
• 17:54
  Speaker 4: cannot stop that until we are able to achieve that
• 18:00
  Speaker 4: dopamine response, which which absolutely stops it.
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: I have empathy for people who have problems with all
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: kinds of addictions because thanks to you, I worked in
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: your facility for a few years working with addicts, and
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: it was I learned more than they learned. I'm sure.
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: But do you understand that for people who have never
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: bumped into addiction, either themselves or anyone else, the lack
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: of empathy that people would have, well, he fucked up
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: his own, she fucked up. Well, nobody made you do it, bro.
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: But of course it's and like one thing that you've
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: said a few times on here, which is worth repeating,
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: is like were you twelve or thirteen when you had
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: your first drink? But anyway, you were a child and
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: you had your first taste of alcohol, and one respect
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: once was fuck this taste shit, and two was this
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: is amazing. How do I get more of this?
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: Yes, like exactly, It's.
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: Like it's like it made you feel right a way
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: that you didn't generally feel, and it was that feeling
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: that lit a match on the addiction.
• 19:23
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it made me feel as though I thought everyone
• 19:26
  Speaker 4: else felt made me thought I thought it made me
• 19:29
  Speaker 4: feel normal because I felt abnormal.
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: I didn't know. I didn't have the language.
• 19:35
  Speaker 4: Back then, I didn't understand this, but now I can
• 19:39
  Speaker 4: look back and say it. I was absolutely riddled, riddled
• 19:43
  Speaker 4: with anxiety, yeah, fear, and low self esteem, meaning that
• 19:52
  Speaker 4: how I felt about me. I thought I was totally
• 19:55
  Speaker 4: totally inadequate to anybody around me, and I didn't think
• 20:00
  Speaker 4: there was worse anything. And when I had a drink,
• 20:04
  Speaker 4: even though it tasted like crap and it's not even worse,
• 20:09
  Speaker 4: it made all of that go away that I ever
• 20:13
  Speaker 4: wanted to be without it.
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: How can you not become an addict? I mean, obviously
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: people don't, but when you have that experience, obviously a
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: lot of other twelve a seventeen year olds would drink it,
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: go this is fucking horrible, spit it out and it
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: would make them throw up. I get that, but it's
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: for some people. As you've said, some people are more
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: predisposed genetically to becoming an addict because for a range
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: of reasons, one of them being they don't seem to
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: typically produce enough dopamine or the same amount of dopamine
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: as other people typically do. And if you feel shit, terrible, sad, lonely, disconnected, unlovable, stupid, unseen,
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: all these myriad of feelings and cons steps, and then
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: I mean, you could have had a fucking you know,
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: a magic mushroom or anything like whatever, whatever the subsetance is,
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: whatever the substance is, then all of a sudden, you
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: feel great for you like your subjective experiences, something in
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: the ballpark of euphoria, or at least the lack of anxiety.
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: Oh my god, excuse me, Yes, yes, what about that?
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: Could have been eating?
• 21:31
  Speaker 4: I could have had a massive weight problem, right, because
• 21:34
  Speaker 4: you can get that.
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: Same response from eating.
• 21:37
  Speaker 4: Yes, you can get that same response from all types
• 21:40
  Speaker 4: of different behavior, and get it from I mean, I
• 21:42
  Speaker 4: used a couple of behaviors. One of them was drinking whatever,
• 21:44
  Speaker 4: but the other one is like getting attention, like doing crime.
• 21:49
  Speaker 4: I started breaking into places and vandalizing places, and I've
• 21:54
  Speaker 4: got a reputation around school as one of the bad boys,
• 21:57
  Speaker 4: and I I reveled in it, not because for any
• 22:02
  Speaker 4: other reason, but I finally felt like I fit in.
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: Yes, isn't it funny? What you want? Correct me if
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: I'm wrong? But and I know the same thing. I
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: did the same thing. But I just was obsessed with
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: my body and my appearance because I was an insecure, overthinking,
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: fucking fat kid. Right But and shit, self esteem, shit
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: self worth, lonely disconnected, and I probably didn't seem it
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: because I could string a few words together. But that's
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: how I felt. I constantly felt like a fraud, even
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: a as an adult, like when people would say, oh, like,
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: you're pretty smart, or you've got some good insight, or
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: you know, there's such wisdom in part of me still
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: feels like, oh, but if you knew how stupid I
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: was behind those smart sounding words, right, and you like
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: you do these things. It's not because you want to
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: break in necessarily, or it's not because you give a
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: fuck if your body fat's ten percent or thirty percent.
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: It's more about, oh, if I look like this or
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: I do this behavior in your case, then I get approval.
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: I've never had approval in my life. I get noticed,
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: I get a bit of credibility. Obviously this is a
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: terrible conduit or a terrible pathway to it, but nonetheless,
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: like everything is really if you don't.
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: Know any different than what have you got yeah, and.
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: That's right. So it's really emotional and mental stuff that
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: somehow temporarily gets resolved with dumb decisions.
• 23:41
  Speaker 4: Then the addic can easily be categorized as somebody that
• 23:46
  Speaker 4: has an extremely high ego and a very low self
• 23:51
  Speaker 4: esteem concurrently, And just to clarify for listeners, I mean,
• 23:56
  Speaker 4: I mean, obviously, the ego is about what I project.
• 24:00
  Speaker 4: It's about what I want you to see of me.
• 24:04
  Speaker 4: Self esteem is what I see of me and what
• 24:07
  Speaker 4: I think of me, and my ego has been trying
• 24:11
  Speaker 4: to protect me. My ego has been the shield that
• 24:16
  Speaker 4: I've hidden behind that's prevented you from seeing the reality,
• 24:20
  Speaker 4: but it's also prevented me from seeing the reality. Because
• 24:23
  Speaker 4: if I can get obsessed with what my ego is doing,
• 24:28
  Speaker 4: which is trying to present everyone that I'm okay and
• 24:31
  Speaker 4: I don't need your help and I'm going to be okay,
• 24:34
  Speaker 4: all right, And whether that's by me looking awesome by
• 24:37
  Speaker 4: getting big in the gym, or whether that's be by
• 24:40
  Speaker 4: me using drugs and alcohol so I can socialize and say, hey,
• 24:43
  Speaker 4: here you go on girls and talk to girls and
• 24:46
  Speaker 4: fit in and be one.
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: Of the boys.
• 24:48
  Speaker 4: Whatever it is that ego has been protecting, well, seemingly
• 24:57
  Speaker 4: protecting me from facing the truth about myself and also
• 25:00
  Speaker 4: revealing to you what I really.
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: Think of me.
• 25:03
  Speaker 4: And so when someone gets to the point where they say,
• 25:06
  Speaker 4: walk into rehab and they're going to get clean and sober,
• 25:10
  Speaker 4: it's got nothing to do with the substance. Can I
• 25:12
  Speaker 4: just say, I've got to get this off in my chest?
• 25:15
  Speaker 4: That coming off the drink, the drugs, or the behavior
• 25:18
  Speaker 4: is so easy. It's the easiest part of addiction. It's nothing,
• 25:23
  Speaker 4: a big deal, a few days, a bit crook or
• 25:25
  Speaker 4: what he cares, it's over and done with. But what
• 25:29
  Speaker 4: isn't that easy to get past is holy crap. Now
• 25:34
  Speaker 4: I can't pretend I'm okay. Now people might see that
• 25:39
  Speaker 4: I am what I deem as weak or inadequate or
• 25:45
  Speaker 4: vulnerable or whatever it is, and my internal system goes
• 25:54
  Speaker 4: into overdrive because it wants to find a way to
• 25:58
  Speaker 4: be able to feel that dopamine thing against I can
• 26:00
  Speaker 4: protect myself from.
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: The truth, the truth of me.
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: And you know what every addiction what is paradoxical? Do
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: you like that word? What is paradoxical? Is that if
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: I met Mick in the middle of you know, the craziness. Right,
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: I would not like that guy nearly as much as
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: I like the guy who was going, Hey, I'm a
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: bit fucked up. I'm sad, I'm scared, I do dumb shit.
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: I've made bad decisions, real bad decisions. I went to jail.
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: I'm needy as fuck. Please love me. I want approval
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: like all that human stuff, which all I mean not some,
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: all of us have a version of that. You know,
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: clearly we don't all choose the path that you did.
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: But you know, obviously not everyone loves me or this podcast.
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: But amidst the positive feedback that I do get it
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: is I like how you just talk about your own
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: shit like I like it that. Yes, one, you've got
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: a bit of an education, and you've done some things,
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: and you know some stuff that's cool. But what more
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: than that, I find impressive how you are and who
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: you are as a person because you talk about your
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: own shortcomings and flaws and faults of which there are
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: a million. And the irony is the stuff that you
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: now show the world that gives you credibility and acceptance
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: and love is the stuff that you once hid from
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: the world because you thought that would fuck you up.
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: If they ever figured out how you truly were.
• 27:37
  Speaker 4: That's crazy, and you're right, that is a massive paradox,
• 27:40
  Speaker 4: and it's it's awesome now, you know, like I can't
• 27:44
  Speaker 4: believe I was running away from me And every addict
• 27:47
  Speaker 4: on the planet, it doesn't matter who they are.
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: It doesn't matter whether you're a.
• 27:51
  Speaker 4: Sporting superstar, doesn't matter whether you're a you know, somebody
• 27:54
  Speaker 4: crawling out of the bin, doesn't matter if you're a housewife. Right,
• 27:59
  Speaker 4: every addict on the face of the planet is running
• 28:02
  Speaker 4: away from themselves. You know, when I see someone that's
• 28:05
  Speaker 4: an addict or full of egos, so they're very very
• 28:09
  Speaker 4: close and most likely it could be very every chance
• 28:13
  Speaker 4: about that ready, but full of ego. I just see
• 28:16
  Speaker 4: a big scaredy cat. Y. My thought is, how can
• 28:20
  Speaker 4: I help you to get into a position where you
• 28:23
  Speaker 4: can stop being a scaredy cat and start looking at
• 28:25
  Speaker 4: the real you? Because then once you do, once you do,
• 28:29
  Speaker 4: then we can find out what's not working. Yes, we
• 28:33
  Speaker 4: can find out what we can accentuate that is working.
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: Do you know what I just wrote down? Tip feel
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: free to jump in. I just wrote down five things
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: that I think what pretty much everyone needs. I'm sure
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: there's more. But I just did this while you're talking attention, connection, acceptance, calm,
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: the opposite of anxiety, Calm and blood Like. I think
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: that's what we all are addicted to, technically addicted, but
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: we just try to get there by a different means, you.
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: Know, internally chasing them.
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, what about Ah? How do I word this without
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: throwing anyone under the bus? So I may or may
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: not know quite a few people over the years who've
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: used steroids, right, which are not a physiologically addictive thing.
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: So steroids don't have a physical addiction. You don't. You don't.
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: Don't go off the hell I need some testosterone or
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: I'm going to go nuts. Right, it doesn't work like that.
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: But they are emotionally and psychologically addictive because of what
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: they do to your body and how you look. Or
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: they can be addictive, you know. So there are other
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: things which it's not about what it does to your
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: brain in the moment. Oh fuck, I whack in some whatever,
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: let's not name steroids, but I whack in a bit
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: of this or that, and oh now I just feel
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: this bliss. No, that isn't what happens. What happens over time,
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: if you live, shit and eat pretty well. Is that
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: you get this body that you could not have got
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: without steroids, which some people don't really realize. It's like, no,
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: you can get a really good body, of course, and
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: you can get a high performance body with but what
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: some athletes, even non athletes, achieve is beyond their natural
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: physical capacity. And then that state or that appearance or
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: that shape or that muscle mass, that in itself becomes
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: an addiction. And the conduit to that addiction or part
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: of the conduit is using these other chemicals. Like surely
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: you've seen a bit of that into that, Yeah.
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: It is spot on.
• 30:46
  Speaker 4: And what the addiction is is that the attention that
• 30:49
  Speaker 4: I'm going to get And I can pretend that I'm
• 30:52
  Speaker 4: not seeking, but I'm going to get You're free, well,
• 30:56
  Speaker 4: you're a free and I go, oh, yeah, look, you
• 30:58
  Speaker 4: know I'm gonna do it for that whatever and oh really, well,
• 31:02
  Speaker 4: then let yourself go then, right. So it's that attention
• 31:09
  Speaker 4: and that connection and that kind of that feeding of
• 31:12
  Speaker 4: Look what I'm presenting to you, appreciate it, because I
• 31:17
  Speaker 4: don't know what else there is of me, Like without this,
• 31:20
  Speaker 4: I'm not Oh, I just can't be happy. I need
• 31:23
  Speaker 4: to have this because right, so that's the addiction. And
• 31:27
  Speaker 4: like you were saying, the conduit is the steroid or
• 31:29
  Speaker 4: whatever it is. Yes, right, that the person's using, that's
• 31:33
  Speaker 4: not the addiction, but that's helping them to achieve the
• 31:36
  Speaker 4: addiction or to to produce the results that allows the
• 31:42
  Speaker 4: addiction to flow.
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: Now, you know, I also think about this. This is
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: fucking when you think about this, just unemotionally and constructively.
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: Let me first say I love bodybuilding as a sport.
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: Maybe I shouldn't I do. I like watching bodybuilders on stage.
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: I like looking at freaks. I'm putting up my hand,
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: freaky men, freaky women. Still love watching a bunch of
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: fucking hybrids on stage, just looking, you know, like crazy,
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: enjoy it. Let's say, though, thinking about it, So, what's
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: the process? Right, So you walk up on stage with
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: a postage stamp covering your dick or your fahaha. Right,
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: you walk up on stage where it's it's the JJ
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: and a couple you know, Lady Garden anyway, but think
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: about this. You walk up on stage almost nude, like
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: ninety eight percent of your body is uncovered. Then you
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: stand on a stage next to other people, and then
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: a bunch of humans subjectively judge you. Yeah, they all
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: hate a number or a score to your symmetry, how
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: lean you are, how much muscle mass you've got, and
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: so on and so on, and then you get judged,
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: like literally judged numerically, and then you get told, oh,
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: you're really good or you're really shit because you didn't
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: even make the top five in a group of six,
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: or you didn't make it. Like when we think about
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: that in isolation as the potential psychological and emotional ramifications
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: from standing in a postage stamp in front of six
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: hundred people in an auditorium and the only reason they're
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: there is to see your body, And the only reason
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: the people in the front row are there that five
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: judges is to evaluate your body and then tell you
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: if it's good enough. Like that is no wonder put
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: me also like body dysmorphia and this weird kind of
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: and eating disorders and self esteem issues and insecurity issues.
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: And I had all of that. I had all of
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: that because I was that. I was the one who
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: thought my body was me and I got you up there,
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: thing on you end. No I needed six postage stamps.
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: Let's be honest, So no, I never got on stage.
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: I would know. I was way too insecure for that,
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: and I certainly didn't have the body for that. But yeah,
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: it's just funny the things that we do. You go, oh, yeah,
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: well that's what you do. You stand up there and
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: people judge you, which is cool because that's the sport.
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: But then when you think about the potential human impact
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: of that on an individ when you break it down
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: somebody psyche, you're like, well, no, wonder so many people
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: in some sports are a bit fucked up.
• 34:58
  Speaker 4: Well, I said the sun in boxing, Like, I mean,
• 35:00
  Speaker 4: I'm talking to a girl that I fight with and
• 35:05
  Speaker 4: and that I trained with, that I train and we're
• 35:11
  Speaker 4: talking about cutting weight and all that sort of stuff,
• 35:13
  Speaker 4: and you're making fire weight and all that sort of business.
• 35:16
  Speaker 4: And when we got in depth into talking about I said, look,
• 35:20
  Speaker 4: in order to be a boxer really and to fight
• 35:24
  Speaker 4: at the rate that's going to be really really good
• 35:26
  Speaker 4: for you, you've really got to virtually give yourself an
• 35:28
  Speaker 4: eating disorder, you know, because you know you're you're you're
• 35:32
  Speaker 4: on the scales every day. And then when you learn
• 35:35
  Speaker 4: to which I have, you learn to manipulate your body.
• 35:39
  Speaker 4: Within about two hundred grams in particular time frames. It's
• 35:46
  Speaker 4: not healthy, you know, at all. It's not a healthy
• 35:50
  Speaker 4: mindset to be. And when you're up there boxing and
• 35:54
  Speaker 4: you're being judged by and I can tell felouse you've
• 35:57
  Speaker 4: been judged by three humans that you know that it're
• 36:01
  Speaker 4: making an evaluation on whether or not you've performed to
• 36:05
  Speaker 4: an ability that's yeah, to their standard And to say yeah,
• 36:12
  Speaker 4: I don't know, like it's it's the same scenario, you know,
• 36:14
  Speaker 4: like it's yeah, it's not healthy. It's not a healthy
• 36:18
  Speaker 4: part of sport, healthy mindset.
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: Any sport or pursuit where you have to make weight.
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: I don't think they're all categorically bad. But rowers have
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: to do the same. Wrestlers have to do that, you know,
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: MMA fighters have to do the same. You know. TIF
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: Was that ever an issue for you or not? Really?
• 36:41
  Speaker 3: Fortunately No? I was always at a lean body weight
• 36:46
  Speaker 3: and a stable weight. Yeah, so it wasn't yeah, which
• 36:52
  Speaker 3: was good.
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: What about do you? How do you feel feel free
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: to say as much or as little as you want,
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: but in terms of you and your your body and like,
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: did you do you have body issues other than being
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: angry with chocolate? But like did you have legit issues
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: around how you looked and how you thought you looked
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: for others and the way people perceived you, or was
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: that not such a deal for you.
• 37:22
  Speaker 3: No, it wasn't something I at the time identified as
• 37:26
  Speaker 3: a huge driver, but it definitely was. And sport is
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: sport is something that can make that stuff go under
• 37:35
  Speaker 3: the radar. So I always when I started fighting, I
• 37:40
  Speaker 3: was around low fifty ki lows and I fought in
• 37:43
  Speaker 3: the fifty four category, and fifty four wasn't an Olympic weight.
• 37:49
  Speaker 3: You were fifty one or sixty. And I remember thinking
• 37:52
  Speaker 3: I could never get to sixty because I was so
• 37:54
  Speaker 3: lean anyway, I just didn't think I think capacity. And
• 37:58
  Speaker 3: also just quietly. I've never said it out loud, but
• 38:01
  Speaker 3: I used to think if I ever got sixty kilos,
• 38:02
  Speaker 3: would probably hate myself, Like I, I don't want my
• 38:05
  Speaker 3: body to be sixty kilos if.
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: I get how much do way now? How much? Douay
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: now about sixty four? Yeah?
• 38:13
  Speaker 3: And I look back at I can look back at photo.
• 38:16
  Speaker 3: Doesn't yourself at some photographs? No, I'm trying to put
• 38:19
  Speaker 3: on I'm eating in a syrplus now I'm trying to
• 38:21
  Speaker 3: put on more muscle.
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: I'm trying to put more weight on.
• 38:24
  Speaker 3: It's interesting, but I can look back at photographs, particular
• 38:28
  Speaker 3: photographs of when I was fighting, and see this skinny
• 38:33
  Speaker 3: looking thing and go, oh oh, did I look at somebody?
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: Give her a feed?
• 38:38
  Speaker 3: For fuck's sake, Give the bitch a burger, mate.
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: Ye I met this. I met this young guy at
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: the gym last night. I'll give him a shout out.
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: His name's Nathan. Such a good it's not that young.
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: He's thirty, but he looks fucking twelve anyway, And you know,
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: anyway we were talking about We're talking to him, and
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: he like, so, like, what are your goals like now?
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: Like obviously stay healthy and strong and all that he goes,
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: but like, do you have any current goals? And for
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: the first time in my life, well, oh maybe not,
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: but I said, I want to put on weight, like
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: I want to gain weight, like well back then, I
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: wanted to go muscle weight. But still it's like, I'm
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: seventy eight kilos and I have not been seventy eight
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: kilos since probably I was eleven or twelve, right, because
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: when I was fourteen, I was ninety plus and so
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: you know it fucks with my head to be seventy
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: eight kilos even though you know, for my mind i'm
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: five ten. I'm five nine and a half five ten right,
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: actual height, not fake height, and so it's definitely not
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: a bad weight, but it still it fucks with my head.
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: I go, how can I be so light? Even though
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: I'm pretty healthy and fit and strong, there's that I
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: still battle that when I weigh myself, I get disappointed.
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: I got it. One day of seventy seven and a half,
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: I just about fucking chuck myself down the stairs. I'm like, fucking,
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to run around the shower to get
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: wet soon. And it's like, and do you know what
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: happens to me sometimes which has never happened in my life. Oh,
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: when I'm wearing this or something like this, a flannel
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: shirt where people can't really tell, you know, they can
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: a bit, but people say to me and I want
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: to punch them in the mouth so bad. So do
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: you still go to the gym? I'm like, fuck you?
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: You know, do you still go to the gym? Because
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: now I look like a fucking tennis player, endurance runner
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: or something.
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: You need to cut the sleeves off that flannel.
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: I need to do something. But anyways, okay, so I asked,
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: we've probably got fifteen minutes. I asked chatters to talk
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: about some of the some of the more not the
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: right word, but current prevalent common addictions or obsessions or
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: distractions that kind of bump into what we would call
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: like recognized addictions. But so no surprise with some of them,
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: but a few are interesting. So social media, compulsive checking, scrolling, posting,
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: engagement seeking, smartphone use, difficulty tolerating being without your phone,
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: habitual checking, like unconscious checking, like you're in the middle
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: of a conversation, you just look at your phone because
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: it's you always do. Attention validation seeking, so becoming dependent
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: on like's comments, praise, reassurance, visibility, or social approval. Not
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: a formal addiction per se, but can be highly compulsive
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: shopping compulsive buying despite financial, relational, or emotional consequences. That
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: sounds pretty addictive. Online shopping particularly potent because purchasing is instantaneous, private,
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: and twenty four to seven gaming one of the stronger
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: examples its gaining disorder is formally recognized by the WHO,
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: World Health Organization. Internet use compulsive online activity that interferes
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: with sleepwork, relationships, every day function pawn which is kind
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: of more in the accept that exercise. This is interesting.
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: Compulsive training despite injuries, exhaustion, illness, or interference with relationships
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: and responsibilities. Put my hand up for that. Food eating yep.
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: Work workerholism. Compulsive working that becomes psychological, sociologically, and emotionally harmful.
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: That's interesting. What about this one? Tanning not so much
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: in Australia, but maybe another bar. I guess repetitive You've
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: the exposure despite knowing the health consequences, sometimes called tan aresia.
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: That's hilarious.
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: News consumption dooms holders? Cut that down?
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, repeatedly consuming distressing information. This is doom scrolling despite
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: recognizing that it is bad for your well being. This one,
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: I'd never thought of dating apps, compulsive swiping, matching, checking
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: whether reward can increasingly become the possibility of a match
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: rather than actually meeting someone. Self harm. I didn't think
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: of this. Repetitive self injury can develop addiction like characteristics
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: involving urges, relief and reinforcement cosmetic procedures. I'll just whip
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: from achievement and productivity becoming psychologically dependent on accompliments, accomplishments, busyness,
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: and metrics. Addiction to drama, conflict, and outrage. Some people
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: appear to repeatedly seek emotionally arousing conflict, particularly online drama
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: and outrage. Addiction. There's there's so much in that space
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: which is all relatively new in the in the lexicon
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: of addiction. And also because I guess of the app,
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: you know, the evolution of technology, it's opened for better
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: or worse different doors.
• 44:43
  Speaker 4: I can that entire list that you read out, apart
• 44:48
  Speaker 4: from one or two things, I've been heavily, heavily in entranced.
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: In all of it at some states.
• 44:59
  Speaker 4: You know, I had a an episode about four or
• 45:03
  Speaker 4: five months ago, where.
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: Can you believe it? Apple did a bloody an update
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: on my.
• 45:09
  Speaker 4: Phone and oh and disturbing. Well that was mentally disturbing.
• 45:16
  Speaker 4: And then the next day I tried to do something
• 45:20
  Speaker 4: on my phone and that kind of froze. So I
• 45:22
  Speaker 4: turned you know, so, yeah, you turn your phone off
• 45:25
  Speaker 4: and then you turn it back on again to fix
• 45:26
  Speaker 4: the glitch. So I did that, but as I turned
• 45:30
  Speaker 4: my phone back on, it just like it blocked me.
• 45:34
  Speaker 4: But my Apple, my Apple account blocked me, and but
• 45:39
  Speaker 4: I don't know the password I have not done, so
• 45:44
  Speaker 4: there's no way to access anything. I mean nothing, no contacts,
• 45:49
  Speaker 4: no messages, none of my lifetime of photos, none of
• 45:53
  Speaker 4: my social media, nothing that's gone. There's nothing I can do, right, Like,
• 45:58
  Speaker 4: I can't, nobody can. I can't ring someone from another
• 46:02
  Speaker 4: phone and get them to, you know, to fix it
• 46:05
  Speaker 4: for me. And the only way I could do anything
• 46:08
  Speaker 4: about it was to book an appointment at an Apple store,
• 46:13
  Speaker 4: which was a week away. Ah right, And I'm literally
• 46:19
  Speaker 4: I'm look, I'm not going to kid about this at all. Right,
• 46:23
  Speaker 4: I'm telling you that I felt physically sick. I couldn't
• 46:27
  Speaker 4: breathe properly, right, and I was just completely like it completely.
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: Shattered me, shattered me.
• 46:39
  Speaker 4: This is a phone, right, And the next day I
• 46:43
  Speaker 4: rang my I T company, Yeah, after all my it
• 46:49
  Speaker 4: at work. They made me very well and I told
• 46:52
  Speaker 4: them what the problem was, and so they got one
• 46:54
  Speaker 4: of their texts to meet me in at work. And
• 46:56
  Speaker 4: I thought, there's no way you can do anything, mate,
• 47:00
  Speaker 4: like this doesn't matter what you do, you cannot fix
• 47:02
  Speaker 4: this by handed.
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: In my phone. He took it off me.
• 47:07
  Speaker 4: He had it for thirty seconds and handed it back
• 47:10
  Speaker 4: to me fully restored. And I'll tell you what I
• 47:15
  Speaker 4: could have tongue kissed him.
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: Wow, I was thinking more, but sure, okay.
• 47:22
  Speaker 4: Yeah, well possibly more, but you know, like it was
• 47:25
  Speaker 4: just the relief like it was. Look, I'm telling you
• 47:29
  Speaker 4: things happened to my body in that moment that shouldn't
• 47:31
  Speaker 4: happen in those moments, and that happened was like.
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: When was that just like a high? Was that like euphoria?
• 47:43
  Speaker 4: That reminded me of when I won the Australia the sorry,
• 47:49
  Speaker 4: the Asia specific super middleweight title.
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: Everybody reminded me of that? Was that good?
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: It was?
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: It was? It was electric, It was ecstasy.
• 47:59
  Speaker 4: It is like the dumping of gogamine like I haven't
• 48:02
  Speaker 4: had since I had my bloody first drink.
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: See that's hilarious. All right, So as we wind up,
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: I want to ask you if am I getting in
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: your way? Do you want to add or ask for
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: you good? So I want to ask you a more
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: grown up question as an expert. So people, are you
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: know somebody's worried that their kid, or their partner, or
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: their friend or their someone might be either in addiction
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: or heading down the path of addiction, What maybe should
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: they look for? What like, what are the signs and
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: symptoms and indications? And I'm sure there's some really fucking
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: obvious ones, But tell us about that, because I feel like,
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: through no faults of their own, and it's understandable, but
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: I feel like a lot of a lot of people,
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: including me until I met you, are pretty naive about addiction.
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: And I think addicts are pretty good at making a
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: lot of people think they're not addicts, especially alcoholics.
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: There's one in themselves.
• 49:13
  Speaker 4: The people are lying, yeah, okay, when you're catching people
• 49:17
  Speaker 4: are lying, when people are becoming horribly unreliable making false promises.
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: So I know a person that.
• 49:27
  Speaker 4: They continually that this particular person continually makes outlandish, over
• 49:32
  Speaker 4: the top promises that I know that they have absolutely
• 49:37
  Speaker 4: no hope in God's green Earth have ever been able
• 49:39
  Speaker 4: to fulfill.
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: But to them, they need.
• 49:42
  Speaker 4: To do that so that so that it gives them
• 49:45
  Speaker 4: the relief and it gives them the I guess they
• 49:48
  Speaker 4: feel like they're putting out of smoke screen to cover
• 49:52
  Speaker 4: up what's really going on, and they're never going to
• 49:54
  Speaker 4: follow through with that promise.
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: So I can look for I can look for the lyne.
• 49:58
  Speaker 4: I can look for the MANI pipulation, the manipulating we
• 50:02
  Speaker 4: can look for.
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: You know, I guess mood changes for no reason, you
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: know that sort of stuff.
• 50:12
  Speaker 4: And if you I mean, if you're suspecting someone of
• 50:14
  Speaker 4: I wonder if they've got a problem with addiction. I
• 50:16
  Speaker 4: mean you were seen when they you know, like, are
• 50:19
  Speaker 4: they different from when they leave the home to when
• 50:21
  Speaker 4: they come back?
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: Are they Is there a personality change that's happening here?
• 50:27
  Speaker 4: Is this person can you know, like you know, socially
• 50:30
  Speaker 4: awkward or kind of withdrawn, but then all of a sudden,
• 50:33
  Speaker 4: after they've been out there kind of coming home and hey,
• 50:36
  Speaker 4: you know, like the life of the life of the household,
• 50:39
  Speaker 4: Like there's just behavioral.
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: Changes, you know, Like I mean that's the sort of the.
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that makes sense, and it's hard to tell,
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: there's no doubt about it. But also I think one
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: of the mistakes that some people make and or one
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: of the assumptions maybe and I I kind of realized
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: anybody could get addicted, but I kind of you know,
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: when you have an idea in your mind. I'm being
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: very generalist here of what an addict might be. It's
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: often not the person like sometimes it's the CEO. Sometimes
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: it's the guy or girl with six businesses. Sometimes it's
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: the famous performer. Sometimes well often you know it's so
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: it's not it's not. Oh, this is a socioeconomic problem, right, No,
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: this isn't everyone problem.
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, no absolutely.
• 51:36
  Speaker 4: I mean that's the biggest misconception people I have, is
• 51:38
  Speaker 4: that is someone that's kind of less fortunate and you know, yeah,
• 51:44
  Speaker 4: certain demographic and and you know, like addictions everywhere. I
• 51:48
  Speaker 4: mean I look at I look at people that I
• 51:50
  Speaker 4: deal with on a day to day basis, like not
• 51:52
  Speaker 4: at the rehab but just ingesting life and whether quite
• 51:56
  Speaker 4: off off, watch very closer. I like watching really state
• 52:00
  Speaker 4: agents because I know I have a lot of real
• 52:03
  Speaker 4: estate agents that might have been of a snorter cope
• 52:05
  Speaker 4: off the toilet suit.
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: Shout out to real estate guys, Michael Hall.
• 52:14
  Speaker 3: Didn't you just do the real estate agents of Victoria hubs?
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: I did, But I don't indulge what he says at all.
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: I completely disagree with more. Thanks for that, ah, But
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: it's always good catching up with you, Tiff, do better
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: next time. You know, you really, honestly you didn't contribute much.
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: I mean you know, have a go.
• 52:43
  Speaker 3: I've been thinking about chocolate every day since we spoke
• 52:46
  Speaker 3: about it, so I couldn't get my mind back on track.
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: That's hilarious, Mick. Is there anything you want to promote
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: or point anyone towards anything or you're good?
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 52:59
  Speaker 4: Look, well look, if anybody out there is suffering with
• 53:02
  Speaker 4: addition or they know anyone that's suffering from edition, feel
• 53:04
  Speaker 4: free to give us a call at myhab. You can
• 53:07
  Speaker 4: just jump online to myhab dot com dot au and
• 53:10
  Speaker 4: phone numbers on there. We'd be happy to chat to
• 53:13
  Speaker 4: you and help you through whatever it is that's going on.
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's it perfect, Thanks Michael, thanks tip for say
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: goodbye affair, but thanks everyone, See you next time.