Latest / Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast, Helping you create a profitable, sustainable law firm you love / Episode 288 Building a Peaceful Law Practice with Shaunis Mercer

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Episode 288 Building a Peaceful Law Practice with Shaunis Mercer · Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast, Helping you create a profitable, sustainable law firm you love

• 0:01
  Intro: Welcome to the wealthy woman lawyer podcast. What if you could hang out with successful women lawyers? Ask them about growing their firms, managing resources like time, team, and systems, mastering money issues, and more. Then take an insight or two to help you build a wealth generating law firm. Each week, your host, Davina Frederick, takes an in-depth look at how to think like a CEO, attract clients who you love to serve and will pay you on time, and create a profitable, sustainable firm you love.
• 0:31
  Davina is founder and CEO of Wealthy Woman Lawyer, and her goal is to give you the information you need to scale your law firm business from 6 to 7 figures in gross annual revenue. So you can fully fund and still have time to enjoy the lifestyle of your dreams. Now here's Davina.
• 0:50
  Davina: Hello everyone. And welcome back to the wealthy woman lawyer podcast. I'm your host, Domena Frederick. And my guest today is Seamus Mercer. Seamus is a co founder of Peaceful Law in North Carolina, and she draws from nearly two decades of guiding clients through the twists and turns of family law and estate planning.
• 1:08
  She's all about helping others master effective communications, develop solid co parenting skills and find peaceful solutions without unnecessary conflict. Shauna's approach is rooted in her commitment to education and empowerment With a focus on collaborative law and reaching peaceful settlements, she ensures her clients make informed decisions and support their well-being and future success. Her work extends to estate planning, where she helps clients navigate complex legal landscapes to secure their legacy. Beyond lawyering, Shawnice is a dedicated mom to two boys ages eight and 11 who keep her busy and inspired. Her measure of success, helping others learn effective communication, develop solid co parenting skills and find peaceful solutions without unnecessary conflict.
• 1:58
  At Peaceful Law, it's all about fostering growth, learning and creating harmony in the midst of life's complexities. So please join me in welcoming Seamus to the Wealthy Woman's Lawyer podcast. So hi, Seamus. Welcome. I'm so good to see you.
• 2:13
  Shaunis: Hi, Davina. Thanks for having me today.
• 2:16
  Davina: Good. So why don't you tell us a little bit, I've kind of introduced you through the, your bio, but why don't you tell us a little bit about your journey to becoming a lawyer and why you decided to become a lawyer?
• 2:31
  Shaunis: Yeah. So I had an interesting path to becoming a lawyer. I, when I was in high school, we lived in a community where there were a lot of migrant workers. And so I saw that there was a need for advocacy and, I really, became connected with some folks in that community and thought that that would be a really wonderful way that I could contribute. And I wasn't sure exactly what that was gonna mean necessarily, but, I knew that I wanted to do something to advocate for people who needed to have somebody, to stand up for them.
• 3:03
  And, so I went to North Carolina State University. I was a park scholar there and that scholarship program provided a lot of really great opportunities, to grow leadership skills, to, focus on giving back to the community and, really hone in on connecting with mentors and people, in the community who could teach that I could learn from the way that they had, given back and grown to be great entrepreneurs and all sorts of people that I would have never had contact with in my life otherwise. You know, like, my family, didn't I don't come from a family of lawyers. I'd you know, my dad was the first person in his family to go to college. And I was, the first person to finish college on my mom's side of the family.
• 3:51
  So Right. It was, definitely an experience navigating into this world of being a professional. And had it not been for those great mentors along the way, I I don't know that I would have been able to have the level of success that I've been able to achieve. Yeah. So Yeah.
• 4:09
  Davina: So so let me ask you. Did you start your law firm right out of law school or did you work someplace out else first?
• 4:15
  Shaunis: Yeah. So, after undergrad, I went to, the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. That's, where my where I got my law degree. And coming out of law school, I went to practice in a small firm in a small county, that I'd never visited in my entire life in North Carolina. Yeah.
• 4:33
  And one of my friends, who also went to Carolina, she said, Hey, Shawna, it's like, come down here. This is great. You're actually gonna get courtroom experience. You can start representing people in the courtroom immediately, doing some indigent defense work, as well as just a general practice. And I had a great mentor attorney who hired me at that firm, took me on not knowing anything about the law, and just set me loose in a courtroom.
• 5:00
  So, I did that for two and a half years. I worked with that attorney. And then I did think that I would go hang my shingle on my own, when I was in my late twenties, with again, still very little life experience, very little professional experience. But, the, the community that I was in was very supportive. The owner of the law firm where I was working, Charlene Edwards, she was really supportive of me doing this as well.
• 5:28
  I went to her and let her know that this was the vision that I had, something that I wanted to do, and she was nothing but encouraging. I you know, that's sort of a theme throughout my career, I think is that Yeah. These really great mentors, and like cultivating and maintaining those relationships, and then giving back and mentoring other people is what sort of led to my career success. But, so I opened my own firm. I had a I did some contract work for her when I first started out to help me to get on my feet.
• 5:57
  And I became the town attorney for a small town here in North Carolina doing contract work for them, as well as, indigent juvenile defense work. I had to contract the state for the counties to do that representation, as well as family law and criminal law as well. So I grew a very small, firm in my twenties, but I wasn't I didn't have the business knowledge at that point,
• 6:22
  Davina: in
• 6:23
  Shaunis: to have a successful firm. And so, you know, I certainly was able to support myself as a single person, and then my husband and I together as married people were okay. But then when we wanted to have kids, it wasn't sustainable. Right? I didn't have all of the knowledge of how to sustain a
• 6:42
  Davina: law firm through that process.
• 6:44
  Shaunis: I got real scared. And I, I closed up shop. I I handed over my cases to another attorney that I had mentored in the area that that could take over those contracts and and do that work for me. Never even think about the fact that I could have sold my law firm or, you know, Right.
• 7:02
  Davina: It never occurred to you.
• 7:04
  Shaunis: Yeah. And, and I went to work for the state, helping to, the indigent defense system, the office of the juvenile defender to improve the quality of counsel across the state in juvenile courtrooms, helping younger attorneys to learn how to communicate with judges, how to communicate with their clients. And I really enjoyed that work and it was rewarding. But I think that call of entrepreneurship, like just kept pulling at me while I was there. We had some instability in our state government that meant that my position was always up for elimination.
• 7:35
  Every time there was a budget conversation, I realized that state government wasn't much safer than being out in the
• 7:41
  Davina: Right.
• 7:42
  Shaunis: Yeah. So, so then I, I had a conversation with and, was recruited by Rosen law firm here in Raleigh, North Carolina. And I took a job with them, doing family law. And that I would say that that's really where the beginning of my business education and seeing being a lawyer also as being, a business person, started started to grow. So I worked for Rosen law firm for seven years, gained a wealth of information, learned how to be a much better attorney, a much better business person, learned how a law firm should run-in order to be profitable and successful so that we can give back to our clients in the way that we want to be able to do that.
• 8:28
  And then I, was recruited by a law firm out on the West Coast, and I remotely helped manage a law firm out there, Elise Buie Family Law Oh. In Washington state while living here in North Carolina. And so I did that for a couple of years. But, again, the call of going back out on my own and growing the vision that I had originally had that had had become something almost entirely different throughout my career. It evolved just like I did, kept pulling me back to the idea of, like, I I think that I need to do this on my own.
• 9:03
  And again, all of my mentors have just been extremely supportive throughout the process. Elise has been, very encouraging for me to go back out and and try this on my own, and see.
• 9:15
  Davina: Yeah. I know Elise. She's been a guest on her podcast before. Tell so tell me about what what year did you decide to go back out on your own? And you partnered with your husband.
• 9:25
  Right?
• 9:26
  Shaunis: Yeah. So, so my husband was a prosecutor, which was an interesting dynamic when I was doing defense work and he was a prosecutor, for years. But, but during COVID, we decided that the right thing for our family was to have one of us that could be at home, for the kids, and be able to support all the homeschooling and all that stuff that was happening during the pandemic. And so he found, a job, with a clinical research organization, doing contract negotiation for them. And so he left his, job as a prosecutor, to take on that role.
• 10:01
  And so then as these conversations started happening in our house about, okay, like, what's your next move? Because that was a temporary move during the pandemic. What are we gonna do? We made the decision that we would, you know, start this firm together and really grow it into, you know, like the way that we live our life, which is trying to minimize conflict as much as we can, trying to find peaceful resolutions. You know, our parenting style is peaceful parenting.
• 10:31
  The way that we communicate with each other is, you know, attempting to have peaceful, sort of, equal distribution of labor, making sure that we're we're both balancing that. And so we we really thought that we could give this a go to help other families to find peace through those periods of transition that they had. And so family law and estate planning was where my background, was so far as subject matter. My husband also practiced family law for a while as well. And we really think that that's a place where there's room for innovation and, that it it's really a changing landscape.
• 11:07
  And so we wanted to give back in that way.
• 11:09
  Davina: Right. Right. And when did you do this? Is this fairly recent or it's been a few years?
• 11:13
  Shaunis: Yeah. So, so we officially started the firm in, January of twenty twenty four. So we've just hit our your mark.
• 11:22
  Davina: Oh, good. Well, congratulations. That's huge. So your decision to choose, family and estate planning is interesting because you actually have had quite a varied background in some of the work that you've done. Why did the two of you decided that was what you wanted?
• 11:40
  Shaunis: Yeah. I, I, as I've gone through my career and had all of these different experiences, everything has sort of revolved though around this family dynamic. Right? So even when I was doing criminal work, when I was doing juvenile work, it's this family unit that is surrounding these decisions that have to be made for the family, and and influencing that dynamic of how decisions get made, that that having the rest of the family to help with those decisions is part of it. And, I think that that's something that when when you do family law, for for as long as I did, you see that that sort of breaks down and that people aren't concentrating on the family making decisions together.
• 12:27
  And so I really wanted to bring that back in to my practice, to, to help people to, sort of widen that, that conversation and have it to be with the whole family. And, you know, the, the majority of my career, family law has always been sort of the, the underlying current and I really like helping people. And I really like being able to find a way to reduce conflict. And family law is this area where there's so much unnecessary conflict. There's so much that's to be there.
• 12:59
  Right.
• 12:59
  Davina: And and I know you are you have some expertise in collaborative law as well. You kind of have that model that you can go to.
• 13:08
  Shaunis: Yeah. And I love the collaborative model. I think that, it is in its true pure form of being practiced, it is a really great process for families who are committed to, following the model of bringing in other experts, right, to to help us to make the right decisions for the family. So whether it, you know, deciding on the right schedule for the kids, whether it's making sure that everybody's gonna be okay financially at the end of the day and really understanding the financial picture. I think that collaborative law has this way of, helping the individuals that that are going through the divorce to really feel like they are a part of the process and have control and ownership over the choices that are made.
• 13:55
  And so I'm, you know, I am a big evangelist for collaborative law. I'm always cornering other family law attorneys in the area and saying like, this is you need to be doing this. If I get a collaborative case, can I bring you on to it? You know, can I, can I send you potential referrals and let you go through this process to see what it's like, and, and bring you over into understanding why I'm so passionate about this? And, you know, I think that, so many other law firm owners come to me and they're like, gosh, I I love this idea of not having to go into court and waste all of my time in court, but I don't think it really works.
• 14:31
  I don't think this is something that you can really do. And I'm like, well, it's working. I've I've seen it work for other people and it's certainly been working for our firm this past year. So just give it a try.
• 14:42
  Davina: That's very interesting. The when you when you've named your law firm Peaceful Law, right? So and you've talked about that as being a theme through your life of you and your husband, the way you sort of manage things. Tell me where you think that comes from for you. Is this something that has always been intrinsically a part of who you are or is it because you've, witnessed a lot of conflict?
• 15:05
  Or where does that come from? Because that is a very strong statement that you're putting out to the world that there's a better way and a more peaceful way. And you say, I raise my children that way. My husband and I work that way. Tell me what that core value is for you and kind of where you think it comes from.
• 15:22
  Shaunis: Yeah. So I I think it comes from having been in high conflict litigation for so many years and seeing the way that it tears families apart, seeing the way that people just aren't understanding that that this conflict isn't gonna bring them that satisfaction that they're hoping for. I I think that what I see when I talk to people, right, is that that they're they're wanting to find peace, and they think that they're gonna get to that place of peace by making the other person, like, see that they're wrong and see that, you know, that could That's
• 15:57
  Davina: a sure way to get people to peace right there.
• 16:01
  Shaunis: If if he just if he just sees what he did, then I'm gonna feel that satisfaction, but that doesn't actually bring people peace. Right? I've I've litigated those cases to the end. We've won, and I've seen the reaction, and it's not peace on
• 16:16
  Davina: in in
• 16:17
  Shaunis: in the eyes of my client. Right? Like, it is it it doesn't go away. That that hurt doesn't go away. It doesn't provide that level of vindication that you're hoping.
• 16:25
  And so the most successful cases that I've seen are the cases where people say, I don't want the conflict. I I want to put my kids at the center of this. I want to make sure that things are okay, or I want to make sure that we don't waste all of our money fighting over something when I've got my retirement to plan for or I've got, you know, like, I have this so going on this vacation next year, we're like, let's focus on that and let's figure out that piece of it instead of for no reason. You know?
• 16:57
  Davina: Right. Right.
• 16:58
  Shaunis: Right. But yeah. So it comes from it comes from probably the latter of seeing the conflict of of seeing the fighting and really understanding the human aspect of the cases. Like, I think that you can be an amazing litigator. I think that you can know the law and be the best attorney in the world so far as, you know, like legal skill goes.
• 17:22
  But you can be a really awful attorney. And you can be doing not the right thing for your client. I, you know, I've trained so many young attorneys and, and every single time I would pick, if you asked me what I would pick, I would pick the emotionally intelligent person who has the natural people skills to get and understand human human nature, human motivation. And I can teach them the law. The law is not the complicated part.
• 17:48
  It's the people that's the complicated part.
• 17:50
  Davina: Right. Right. You have to have some sort of innate ability or understanding. You're either somebody who understands people and cares about that, or you're not, you know, and there are different places for different lawyers. But the interesting thing about your career, this, it always brings up for me when I started, my law firm, I was scared like anybody else who started a law firm.
• 18:16
  And my husband told me, he said, you know, if it doesn't work out, there are other, you can get a job with somebody, you could do this, you do that. And I find that to be a very interesting thing in your career is you're somebody who has dipped your toe in this and you've done this and you've done this and you've always, it sounds like you've experimented with some different things
• 18:36
  Shaunis: and came back
• 18:37
  Davina: to deciding that this was going to be, you were going to go back to opening your firm. And I think that's very encouraging for a lot of attorneys out there because sometimes we think, once I do this thing, this is my career for life. What do you think has given you that sort of, courage, I guess, to try different things and see how they would work for you and then to move on when they didn't any longer?
• 19:05
  Shaunis: Yeah. I mean, I, I think that I I've been really fortunate in that I do come from a family that has been supportive of, Hey, like, go give something a try. It's okay if it doesn't work. You can fail and it's okay. And I think that not being afraid of failure, is is the thing that allows you to go try something that you like, the first time that I walked into a courtroom, I had no idea what I was doing.
• 19:31
  I had no idea where to turn anything. But you know what? At the end of the day, I knew that I was gonna go home and be the same person that I was no matter what happened in that courtroom. And I think that that's such a challenging thing. I mean, I see it raising my own kids is like people naturally want to stay in their comfort zone and they don't want to fail.
• 19:52
  And and you really have to be courageous and step out and be willing to take those risks, in in order to try something new, and know that it's gonna be okay if that's not the right fit. And so, yeah, my my parents were very helpful in that. They were, you know, always telling me it would be okay. And again, you know, at the time I'm like, it's just because they don't know any better. Right?
• 20:14
  I because I'm like, they're not an attorney. They don't understand. This is going to be whatever, but they're like, it's fine. Give it a try. You're young, you know, you, or you know, now I'm not so young when I'm doing it again.
• 20:27
  But they're like, but you know, like you can always go get a job. And, and that's the thing is it's for me being able to think of like, okay, what's my backup plan? I do always have to have and know what my backup plan would be. But I also have to have enough courage to step out and to be all in, if I'm gonna
• 20:48
  Davina: Right. And it's interesting. The longer you do a thing, the longer you have a business, the more you start to realize that backup plan. Like we don't, you know, think this is it. This is the back plan.
• 21:00
  Shaunis: It's a different backup plan then.
• 21:02
  Davina: The different backup plan. Right. Exactly. So tell me, so you guys started your firm. You've been out at a year.
• 21:08
  Tell me about the firm. How many people do you have working for you? What kind of positions do they hold? Is it are the two of you the only lawyers or you have other lawyers working for you or what's the makeup?
• 21:19
  Shaunis: Yeah. So, so coming out this time again was a lot different than when I just started my own firm in my twenties and figured I'd figure it out. But this time we've been a lot more intentional about how we would, how we would do this. And again, like, we've got two kids to support a mortgage, a beach house. Like we've got Yeah.
• 21:37
  Student loans, all sorts of bills still that we're dealing with. So we didn't have that luxury this time of just like figuring it out. And and so we've been very intentional. And for me, again, I wanted this law firm to really fit the vision of practice that I I have. Because for me, this isn't just like any other family law firm.
• 21:58
  It's not just, you know, I've we're gonna do the same thing that everybody else is doing. We're doing something different here. And so I really wanted us to be building it in a way that's sustainable, that that we don't have to go to a backup plan, and and that, that we're gonna get it right for our clients and that they're gonna be as impressed with what we're selling them is gonna happen. Right? That we're gonna with it.
• 22:21
  So, so in the beginning, it was I went out and my husband kept his full time job. So that's what we did for the first few months, of me just, going in there, doing a lot of things myself so far as, figuring out the systems that I was using, developing the SOPs myself for what I would want for my assistants to do pretty quickly. I did bring on, a virtual assistant because I know my own weaknesses. I know where my strengths are and where my Right. I'm somebody that needs an assistant, and that's okay.
• 22:54
  But but I do need I did need to do everything myself first, to to test the process to make sure that it was exactly what I wanted it to be, as we developed the firm. So, so we did have an assistant pretty immediately. The volume of work was more than I expected it to be, pretty quickly. I, am a huge believer that, you know, I think that you should invest in marketing. I think that that's something that is money well spent.
• 23:24
  But I think that your first, marketing attempts has to be, having strong referral sources, having strong connections in the community, and building a reputation for yourself to build a firm that people want to send you business. Mhmm. And so that that for me was, you know, where I spent a lot of my time in the beginning is connecting with those old referral sources that that I had previously, developing new referral sources, getting to know people because I needed to know who the players were in my community that that could help out my clients. You know, the folks that come to see me are clients who are seeking holistic representation. Right?
• 24:02
  They're they're wanting a therapist. They're wanting, a financial advisor, if they don't already or they need anyone. So I needed to have these connections. They need a realtor. I needed to have all of these people in place so that that I could make sure that my, you know, old connections were still taking new folks or that I was making new connections where, I needed to for my clients.
• 24:23
  So then pretty quickly, my husband was able to come out full time, to to join me. And we have, we do have another, like, project manager who focuses on client experience, making sure that, that our clients are getting exactly what they need from us. And we have, a marketing team that, they're it's a factional marketing team that, you know, gives us the support that the big firms can have, for for a little to make sure that we're doing the things that we need to do, for for our, to get new clients and to make sure that people know who we are. I mean, that's the main thing is to me, having a social media presence, having all of this, you know, web presence, that's just about when when one of my referral sources sends me somebody that when they go to look me up, they're like, oh, yeah. That's who she is.
• 25:15
  That that is who she says she is. And so that was really important for me to get that set up pretty early on, so that would know who I was when they when they went to look. And then we do have a couple of attorneys that, work with us on a contract basis. Other small law firm owners, again, like, I'm a big believer in supporting one another in the community. There's, other attorneys who need work and enjoy doing the work.
• 25:44
  I'm glad to send them the work that, that we can't handle in house. And, as long as they understand and know what our experience is, as long as we've, you know, properly train them, as long as we've cut good operating procedures in place so that they can follow through and provide that level of care that we expect is going to be provided, then I'm glad to bring in other folks to help us with that.
• 26:06
  Davina: Yeah. Yeah. So I, work with my husband as well. Tell me what it is like for you to work with your spouse. What are the, what are the upsides and what are some of the pitfalls or challenges that you guys have had to sort of overcome?
• 26:23
  Are you have very different personalities? Are you a lot alike?
• 26:27
  Shaunis: Yeah. So we're very different. I think anybody who would would would would know us would tell you that we are completely different people. I, I I think that knowing and understanding who your spouse is, what their strengths are, what their weaknesses are is really important. So again, it's like open communication from the beginning of, hey, this is the way that I work.
• 26:50
  These these are the things that I need. And, and we hadn't worked together before this. So, that was, you know, you work together in your household, running your household, and there are a lot of similarities, but there's a lot of differences too. And, you know, work Shawnas versus home Shawnas. And and so when those two worlds sort of collide and we work from home a lot of the time.
• 27:13
  We have a physical office space, but a lot of our clients wanna meet online. Our lives are, you know, we've got different obligations that we have. So a lot of times we're working in the same space at home, and we're very different people at home than we are at work. So it's making sure that we understand those things, and then understanding what our roles are within the business. So, I you know, you asked sort of what's what drew me back out?
• 27:41
  What what kept what was that pull that kept on? And I think that the the thing that working for Alyce, I mean, you've talked to her, so, you know, she's really into, getting to know who you are, lots of, lots of tests, lots of, you know, personality, evaluations. And it really helped me to learn there, you know, working with my team there who I was in a more like, like foundational way of Right. This personality type. These are these are other ways that I can see myself.
• 28:13
  And through that, I came to see that, you know, I I'm I'm a visionary and it's really tricky, to be somebody who, has all of these great ideas, but but maybe needs somebody else to help them with the implementation piece, and getting to the right I don't think that a personality type is an excuse for not doing your job or not, you know, being able to follow through. You have to learn those skills. But I think that where your highest and best purpose is, in your firm, it's important to stay in that lane as much as you can.
• 28:50
  Davina: Or Right. Right.
• 28:51
  Shaunis: Have to get out of the lane to quickly get back into the lane, and focus on on that. So so my husband is sort of the person who makes sure that my ideas actually happen, and and that we are, we've got all of the the 10 steps in between sort of, okay, this is the idea. This is the end result. Okay. But like, how do we get there?
• 29:14
  So he's the, how do we get there guy? And I'm sort of, beginning ideas and end results.
• 29:23
  Davina: Right. Right. I want to see the, I want to see it happen. I, I get that. That is so huge.
• 29:28
  For, so I love CliftonStrengths and I I've taken all the different personality tests. I have like a, I am a folder that I have had with me my entire career of all the different tests I've taken at every different job. They want you to take something. And so I have this wonderful insight into who I am. Some of that I like some of that I don't like.
• 29:47
  Some of it I went to therapy and fixed. So, you know, but, definitely a strategic thinker and a visionary. And my husband just beautifully is he's an executor. Like he just down the line as an executor. And I always say grass doesn't grow under his feet because we talk and, and it's like gone while we're talking, he's doing stuff.
• 30:09
  And so very different, personalities, but, but the challenge of being married and working together, you're together a lot and having different types of conversations, personal ones and work ones, you know, and having to sort of navigate that is a, is a huge challenge. So my hat is off to you for that because even then, as much as you love somebody, you know, that is always the challenge. It's like, how do I you're a different person at work than you are at home
• 30:37
  Shaunis: and
• 30:37
  Davina: you have different, you know, objectives and goals and you think you know somebody well, work with them and then you really learn more about them.
• 30:45
  Shaunis: It is so true. And I think like, if you cannot communicate, if you're somebody who sort of just shoves it down, it's not gonna work, because there's only so long that you can go on like that when it's 24. Okay.
• 30:58
  Davina: Right. Exactly. Exactly. So tell us what's on the horizon for your law firm. Where what's your vision for it since you, you know, have a vision.
• 31:07
  I know. What is your vision for?
• 31:09
  Shaunis: Yeah. So, so right now we're still in the phase of just making sure that we're doing a really excellent job at the level that that we are now. We're not looking to have huge exponential growth. We just wanna be really, really good at doing what we do. The long term goal is to, expand to be more of a statewide presence.
• 31:31
  So right now we serve clients across the state, but our physical presence is focused here in the Triangle. So, Raleigh, Durham, Chapel Hill area. But I think that there is so much room, in across the entire state to to bring a more amicable and more peaceful approach to family law and estate planning. And and there's a real lack of, estate planning attorneys, especially throughout the state, especially folks who are approaching this from, bringing in the the family, right, to talk about these decisions and to, really plan together for what the future looks like and what legacy they want to leave. So, you know, our goal is to grow.
• 32:16
  Our goal is to, help other attorneys to see that this is the way, that, that they can really add value to their clients' lives, and still have a really profitable, business at the same time. I think that, that there's, like it's it's so sad because I think that attorneys are so afraid of, of change and they're afraid of, like, revealing their secrets to other attorneys. And there's so much room, you know, in the market. There's people there's so many people that need legal help, that we really can work together, to meet these needs, especially in the areas that that I'm in in family law and estate planning. And so, you know, my goal with other attorneys is to help them to understand, not competition.
• 33:07
  Like, I'm somebody I I need referral partners for when cases need to be litigated. Right? There there are some cases that just aren't gonna be a proper fit for me. And so I need you to be a referral source, that I can rely on to send cases to. And I also need good partners so that we can, you know, have cases together.
• 33:25
  I I want good, zealous advocates who are experienced and want to do well for their clients on the other side of cases that I have. That's right.
• 33:33
  Davina: But they don't but but that they that they view the client as the client and not their ex wife. Yeah. I work with those attorneys more when I was in the family law, and I had a conversation with an attorney one time. I said, you know, she's not your ex wife. Right?
• 33:47
  She's your client. Like we don't have to act like this. We can, we can come up out of the mud and have a, you know, and help these people move on and help these people get on with their lives. So, so I I'm a huge advocate of that work collaborative approach as well. And I think with estate planning, you know, where you are, you're talking about generations and generations of family and family wealth that needs to be managed from generation to generation.
• 34:15
  So I think there's a huge opportunity there when you're looking, at your community and the people that need to be served there, they don't have, you know, lay people don't have any understanding or idea of what the possibilities are, what needs to be done to pass on a legacy to their families. So, and I think that's good work you're doing there. So before we wrap up, why don't you tell me, give me like one gold nugget that you would give to somebody who's maybe wanting to start their own firm with with or without their spouse. And maybe they have a little bit of fear around that. What would you say to them?
• 34:55
  Shaunis: Yeah. I mean, I I think that you have to be willing to take that leap, first of all, in in order to do it. And I think that the the best advice I could give you is to, like, connect with other attorneys to find mentors, hire a coach, do something so that you go into this, actually purposefully and intentionally planning your law firm from the beginning for what you want for it to be. You know, the difference in my approach from my twenties versus my approach, you know, in my forties starting a law firm, is that this time, I had clear goals, a clear vision, and a clear process in mind for how we were gonna achieve our goals. And I think that you don't have to have all of the answers, but you do have to have a plan.
• 35:47
  And sometimes that plan requires an investment.
• 35:50
  Davina: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Thank you so much, Seamus. I really enjoyed our conversation.
• 35:54
  Tell us how we can connect with you if we wanna learn more more about you and your law firm and reach out to you.
• 36:01
  Shaunis: Sure. Absolutely. You can, go to our website. That's the best place to connect where our blog is, where links to all sorts of information is about us. That's peacefullaw.com.
• 36:10
  You can also find us on, Facebook and Instagram at peaceful law. And, I have my own personal account, divorce decisions on Instagram, that you can follow as well. It's a little bit more, personal and, connected, to to me and my individual experience versus, the firm as a whole.
• 36:31
  Davina: Wonderful. Thank you so much. Thanks for being here. I've really enjoyed our conversation.
• 36:35
  Shaunis: Thanks. I appreciate it. It's so nice to talk with you today.
• 36:38
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