Latest / King Dems Podcast | Growth Mindset, Leadership, AI and Business Insights / How Leaders Can End Modern Slavery Through Ethical Business | Tim Nelson

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How Leaders Can End Modern Slavery Through Ethical Business | Tim Nelson · King Dems Podcast | Growth Mindset, Leadership, AI and Business Insights

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You know, you can, you can come into someone's world and and see
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them rescued out of out of slavery, helped out of
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exploitation, but really that doesn't necessarily bring them
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freedom. Freedom isn't an event, it's a
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process. And you have to be willing to
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enable them to understand what is their God-given calling?
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What are they here to do? What, where do they want to be
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in life? What, what's their view and
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vision of life? And I think empowerment is about
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giving everyone the tools that they need to have and removing
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any of the obstacles that potentially the trauma that
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they've been through or the circumstances or horrendous
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issues of things that they've had to deal with so that they
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don't become a stumbling block to help them with everything
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Ladies and gentlemen, once again, welcome to the King
1:31
David's Podcast. And today I've got with me of
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the VIP watching out of Greater Manchester United Kingdom team.
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Dawson, how old you team? Lovely to meet you.
1:54
Oh wow, so glad to be on and I'm just so sorry I don't have my
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shorts on. Feels like a boxing kind of
2:01
introduction. It's good.
2:03
So wow, we've done the combo sports introduction that is
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Bruce Brockberg introduction team.
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It's an honour to welcome you to the England's podcast.
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You are not just leading an organisation, you are leading a
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global news map. As Chief Executive Officer of
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All for Justice Enslaved Free Alliance, you have spent nearly
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two decades confronting one of the darkest realities of our
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world, human trafficking and bordered slavery across 5
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continents. Under your leadership, survivor
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support has expanded by over 40%.
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Policies have shifted. Corporations have been forced to
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rethink ethics. Governments have had to lease
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it. We bring together something
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rare, operational credibility on the ground and strategic
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influence in boardrooms. You understand trauma, justice,
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leadership. He has seen procurement risk and
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systemic change, not as fury, but as huge responsibility.
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This conversation matters, of course.
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This is not about charity. It's is about cinematization.
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Tim Nelson, you are welcome to the Kingdom's podcast.
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Thank you so much, it's such a privilege to be with you.
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You're a legend in the world of podcasts, so really appreciate
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being on. Well, thank you very much.
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You know, at the end of 2025, this podcast was promoted to the
3:31
global top 2%. You know, it's quite amazing and
3:35
humbling at the same time being in the top 2% in the world at
3:41
anything, you know, to have mentioned anything, even if
3:44
it's, even if you are a top 2% plumber or electrician or you
3:51
know, handyman in the world. You are a legend you know, and
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it feels good to be recognised for the great work and the hard
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work. So recently we were, I was
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nominated actually for the Black Tech award in the UK and I would
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appreciate support from every listener and of course every
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guest and team. Nelson himself at his
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organisation the, the, the nominations end on the 26th of
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January. It's really, really amazing. 3
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categories that is AI champion, our social good award and
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entrepreneur of the year. So we're blessed, we're
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grateful. Wow.
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So coming back to team Nelson, the man of Midland, the legend.
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Let's talk about your identity, your calling and your leadership
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foundation. So you have devoted almost 2
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decades to this work. What?
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Moment made this mission personal rather than
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professional. Well.
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For me, I was sitting as an advisor to an offshore
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investment trust. I grew up in an unusual family
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in Northern Ireland, but I find myself.
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Northern Ireland, Wow, I've been to Northern Ireland before.
5:01
I've been to Belfast. Oh man, it's on the giant
5:04
Causeway. You know, I'd be the tour of the
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Antrim coast, I'm telling you. Everybody, everybody in their
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lifetime needs to make the journey to to Northern.
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Absolutely one of the seven natural wonders of nature in the
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United Kingdom. UNESCO.
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It's an. Amazing place to come visit and,
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and everyone we treated well. And if if you're not treated
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well, just let me know. It's kind of everybody,
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everybody looks out for everybody in Northern Ireland.
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But I grew up in an unusual family.
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I came to university in England and study technology and went
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into banking and from going into banking I was sitting as an
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advisor to an offshore investment trust and a friend of
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mine was looking to put a couple of $100 million into high tech
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stocks back in 2000 and six, 2007, I find myself in Los
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Angeles with the night spare and a friend of mine who worked for
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a children's charity at the time brought along a chap who would
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change my life really and my focus and my intention.
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He was on the phone to Condoleezza Rice, who is working
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for the Bush administration at the time.
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Wow, you're Secretary of State? Well, no.
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He was on the phone to her, who was Secretary of State at the
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time. Yeah, she was.
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And she had downgraded India on the human trafficking register.
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And this, this chap was on the phone telling her that he'd been
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a Mumbai the week before and seen girls in cages that were
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being shipped all over India. And I'd never heard of anything
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like that before. And he turned on to me and said,
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well, you know, you, you think that you're, you're good and
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you're helping the community. Maybe you need to do something
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about this issue. It's not just happening in
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India. It's happening all over the
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world. And I couldn't shake it.
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And my wife at the time was heavily pregnant with our first
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child. I'd bought a piece of land.
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We were building a house. It was like the most
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inconvenient time in my world. But a friend of mine, Chris, who
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ran a car dealership network in the UK, had met four people,
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Manchester, and we talked together about potentially
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setting up an organisation, which we did in April of 2008.
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And then in November 2008 we managed to gather 5884 people
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together at Birmingham NEC Arena to tell people about this issue.
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And that was the launch of Hope for Justice.
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Well, I think, I think all leadership is personal and
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leadership comes from a place where you can't lead people with
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a strength that you don't have yourself because you can't
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imitate something else that someone else carries.
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If, if you like, if you want to intimidate, if you want to kind
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of approach a subject and bring real strength, you have to first
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of all done the work. If you want to be a boxer, like
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we were talking about earlier, you have to have trained, you
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have to have developed, You know, you're not going to take
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someone on unless you've you've, you've done some sparring along
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the way. And I think for me, leadership
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is all about your ability to convey an inner commitment that
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you have. And if you're going to call
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people higher, which I believe leadership is a mandate on all
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leadership to do, you have to be willing to press into some of
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those difficult places. It doesn't by example.
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Yeah, but growth doesn't come in the comfortable.
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It's discomfort that is the the breeding grind of of growth.
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And leadership is about helping people through a place of
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discomfort to get to a place almost like you've painted a
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picture of the world that you want to live in and enabling
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people to to fly to that destination, to carry them to
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that destination, to encourage them to tell them that this is a
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view of a preferable feature and, and we can all do better.
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And I love, I love quotes, leadership quotes in in terms of
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helping and driving us on. I think it was Martin Luther
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King who said the most important thing in life is what you will
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do for others and others is is a space that isn't in your world a
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moment. So it enables you to go further
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and to grow the remit, the strength, the the, the kind of
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experience that you've got into a world of discomfort to enable
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others to help move forward. But but for me, leadership is
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all about my responsibility that I carry to enable others to live
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in a world that they've only imagined.
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Absolutely, you know leadership by example is very, very
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important and it's also essential to get out of your
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comfort zone if you are going to standard chance to achieve
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anything great in life. You know the best in the world
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are the best in the world for visa.
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Times of peace breeds weak men and times of war builds raised
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men. So you choose, you know, when
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you describe yourself as a passionate leader and you're all
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about empowerment and growth. What does empowerment really
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look like for someone who has survived exploitation?
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I think for for those people who've been through
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exploitation, that the first thing is to try and help
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acknowledge what has happened to them was wrong and to try and
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build a system to enable them to live the life that they want to
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have. You know, you can, you can come
10:13
into someone's world and and see them rescued out of out of
10:17
slavery, helped out of exploitation, but really that
10:22
doesn't necessarily bring them freedom.
10:24
Freedom isn't an event, it's a process.
10:26
And you have to be willing to enable them to understand what
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is their God-given call and what are they here to do?
10:34
What, where do they want to be in life?
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What, what's their view and vision of life?
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And I think empowerment is about giving everyone the tools that
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they need to have and removing any of the obstacles that
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potentially the trauma that they've been through or the
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circumstances or horrendous issues of things that they've
10:51
had to deal with so that they don't become a stumbling block
10:54
to help them with everything that they want to be.
10:57
Interesting, So what internality split has kept you resilient in
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a field that exposes you to so much human?
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Pain well, for me, I'm a Christian and I believe God
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calls each one of us to do unique things and to walk a
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journey that he has pre planned for us.
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And I, I think for me, the resilience come that comes from
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a place of maybe my upbringing, maybe my understanding of the
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family I've been brought up in, but to never give up, to never
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be in a space where you will will circumstances to to be a
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barrier from you going through some some circumstances you deal
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with. It feels like the handle is on
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the other side and you don't have an opportunity to open a
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door as you go through it. You, you need someone either to
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open a door on the other side or you need to smash your way
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through that door. And I think if you, I come into
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this with the kind of internal view that what we're trying to
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do at ending modern day slavery and exploitation is, is kind of
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incredible but possible. But a lot of people greet us
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with, with what we're trying to do is impossible.
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And we turn, we choose to greet impossible with the words that
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Muhammad Ali said, that impossible is just a big word
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thrown around by small minded men who find it easier to live
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in a world they've been given than the power they have to
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change it. That impossible is nothing.
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Impossible is possible. Not possible as a dare.
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Yeah. So we dare to believe that we
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can live in a different world. So I think it's that internal
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drive to believe that I will not settle while there are men,
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women and children that need our help.
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We need to go after the least, the last and the last.
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We need to help them at every possible level.
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We need to go after released the last and the last.
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I love that you know many people believe slavery is history, but
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from your experience, how present is modern day slavery in
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today's world? Yeah, well, the estimates are by
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the ILO that there are somewhere in the region of 49.6 million
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people enslaved somewhere across the world and that there's a
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definition that comes through the Palermo Protocol but
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effectively means that there are more people now than have ever
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been in human history. The estimates have gone up by
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nearly 10 million over the last 10 years.
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Of those people that are estimated to be in modern day
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slavery, the the sizable amount that most people be aware of
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within sexual exploitation. Alongside that, those
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individuals who are forced to work in homes as domestic
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slaves, but the biggest amount that we see internationally are
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also held within the supply chains of major multinational
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businesses working in many cases given little or no pay to
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produce goods and services that are sold both nationally and
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internationally. So where are most people, most
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prong or most naive about how trafficking actually?
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Works well. At its very core, trafficking is
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when a vulnerable person meets a promise and they are tricked.
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So the vulnerability could be poverty, the vulnerability could
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be migration. Someone could have moved to an
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area where they don't know anything, or it could be
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language skills, they maybe don't speak the language so
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they're more vulnerable to be exploited.
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Could be that they've got a mental health issue or they've
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been abused or traumatised at a younger age, but whatever that
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vulnerability is, a trafficker promises a better future.
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Someone comes alongside that person and says, I know we can
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get you a job where you can earn more money and we'll we'll take
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care of this and maybe you're unemployed at the moment, maybe
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you're not being paid that great of some.
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Oh, we'll get you to a different country where you can earn a lot
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of money. And obviously that person has
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aspirations in life to want to live a different way and, and
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therefore that, that promise that they're given has hope and
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expectation. But when they get to that job,
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they, they quite quickly realised that that promise, they
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were tricked. And for many, whether it's they,
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they get brought into sexual exploitation or domestic
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servitude or labour exploitation, it's horrendous.
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And we've been able to help a significant number of
15:05
individuals globally through our programme.
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Just this last year, we helped just over 155,000 individuals
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across all of our programme. And the the sizable
15:14
understanding that we have is how much poverty is a key driver
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in the ability for traffickers to prey on vulnerable people and
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offer that promise and deceive them.
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So are you able to explain how expectation hides inside
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everyday systems like recruit man logistics, supply chain,
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hospitality and manufacturing? Yeah.
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So I give you, I give you a case that we worked on back in 2015.
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We had an organisation that we trained to spot the signs, they
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find 2 victims the week after our training that we give them
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of individuals that were being exploited.
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We developed the intelligence and by the time that case came
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to court, Operation Fort in the West Midlands and over 400
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Polish trafficking victims. And why Operation Fort was quite
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unique was because they were able to bring people the serious
16:07
and organised crime unit that was on this was effectively
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embedded some of their traffickers within a recruitment
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company. And the companies that they were
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working for had no idea that these individuals were being
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exploited and that money was being taken from them, that they
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were being forced and beaten to, to work in these spaces that
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they were washing in canals. And many had been threatened
16:31
that they would be killed. It's it's, it's never fully
16:34
aware. And and that's just one window.
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It can happen in agricultural settings where people are
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brought in as migrant workers and paid little or no pay or
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quite often in the same way as my in agricultural.
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You see it in the care industry where individuals promise to get
16:50
them a job and then tell them that there's a debt that needs
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to be paid back for getting them into the country or getting them
16:57
into that job. And the rates are so high and
16:59
the interest rate, it kind of means that they will never be
17:03
able to pay off that debt. And the majority, if not all of
17:06
their wages are taken to be paying back this debt.
17:08
So effectively as bonded labour, trafficked and not able to
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leave. We see across every scenario,
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whether it be in the kind of building sector or in logistics
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where wherever people are being used or abused, it's, it's the
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same premise that the trafficker holds either a level of ability
17:26
to, to force that person to give over finance or they control the
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bank account that the money is paid into.
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But it's it's defined by the primer protocol on the basis of
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the ACT, the means and the purpose and, and through that,
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those individuals are then trafficked.
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It's, it's sad but interesting. And you must have been
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traumatised by a lot of shock, right?
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And trauma from the activities that go on in this space.
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What would you say shocked you or had the highest shock impact?
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What surprised you the most when you first started working
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directly in the space? I think I think the reality of
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how hard life is for some people was initially my first view.
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I had no idea that people were were forced in this way against
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their will. But I think the stories that
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impact me the most are sometimes not the most shocking because
18:21
the most shocking stories seem so far away from me.
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They're not necessarily connected to my world.
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One of the most shocking stories that I had that connected with
18:30
me was actually the story of an 8 year old girl.
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And at the time, whenever I heard this story, my daughter
18:36
was 8 years old at the time. And you know I.
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Heard these. My daughter in every single oh
18:42
wow. My birthday's April.
18:44
It's a reality for, come on, the reality for this little girl.
18:51
Yeah. Well, the reality of this little
18:53
girl was that she explained when we, we ask all, all of the
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survivors what they're grateful for, because when you focus on
19:01
gratitude, you can't stay in a place of exploitation.
19:04
You, your mind shifts into what you're grateful for.
19:08
And this little 8 year old girl in Phnom Penh in Cambodia that
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we were working with had put on her form that she was grateful
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that she got to sleep in a dry bed.
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Her story was not unique but her mum fell into hard times.
19:21
Her father had passed away. Sure her Mama got remarried but
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the father had run away. They had 15 children to try and
19:27
support. The mum was trying to make money
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by doing recite, picking up the plastic bottles or aluminium
19:34
cans to get recycled. But this little girl was being
19:37
sold from man to man at the age of 8.
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And I think for me, connecting into a story like that, because
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it connected directly into my world as an 8 year old child
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being put to bed where I'm, you know, doing prayers and tucking
19:51
her in at night. I'm thinking of that little 8
19:53
year old girl who's living a very different life.
19:55
And I think those stories and the horrendous things that
19:59
people have been through. Sometimes it's just the odd
20:01
things that connect to you, the the moments where you know, like
20:05
we'd we'd one of our amazing survivors that we rescued in the
20:08
early days and. She tried to jump out of a first
20:12
floor window, broke her leg and the trafficker pulled her up by
20:15
the hair and put her back on the bed for the next man to come in.
20:18
The, the lack of humanity, the brutality traffickers that we
20:23
hear of who use recent photographs of family members
20:26
back in a country where they come from to, to leverage
20:29
manipulation and coercion is, is horrendous.
20:33
Because that leaves people in a space being thinking that if I
20:36
do run away from this horrendous situation, someone who I love
20:40
and care from could end up being killed.
20:42
And the, the traffickers quite often have the means and
20:45
capability to do that because of serious and organised crime.
20:49
But it's, it's also that they really do not care about the
20:52
humanity of individuals. They're all about the bottom
20:55
line, profit and what this will drive.
20:57
And we see that girls time and time again are sold as
21:01
prostitutes against their will, that the demand is so high for
21:05
prostitution across the countries that there are not the
21:07
girls who want to go into it. So it leads to exploitation and
21:12
and you know, these individuals lives and hopes and dreams are,
21:15
are, are cruelly shattered. Before we dive back into today's
21:18
conversation, I want to share something important.
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it, sometimes the best investment you can make these in
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yourself. What does the average citizen
23:20
need to understand about the role of power, vulnerability and
23:25
economics and trafficking wells? Well, I think the average person
23:31
in the world seems so far removed from this going on in
23:33
their average every day, you know, they go to the shop and
23:37
they buy goods and services. They they go to the supermarket
23:41
and pick up groceries. We all do that on a regular
23:43
basis, but how often do we truly think about the world in which
23:48
those individuals who made the products are having to live?
23:50
And you know, when, when we hear of stories of companies that are
23:54
willfully exploiting people to make profit, not paying minimum
23:59
wage, those people living in horrendous cramped conditions in
24:02
many countries across the world, it starts to it starts to make
24:06
you go, why do why don't people realise and wake up to this
24:10
issue? And most of it is an what I
24:12
would sort call an income uncomfortable truth where people
24:16
are still want the goods and services as cheap as they
24:19
possibly care and don't care about the individuals who are
24:22
involved in making them. In fact, in the UK where I am
24:25
today, if you want to buy tuna fish, the government insist upon
24:30
you down to the can that you buy, finding out whether or not
24:35
that tuna was caught by an individual rod or caught through
24:39
a net. It tells you the the date that
24:41
they were caught to the vessel they were caught on, but there's
24:45
no evidence and understanding of who was on that fishing vessel.
24:50
So we care more about the fish than we do about the person.
24:54
And we see internationally, in many countries across the world,
24:57
there is more money given to charities that care for animals
25:00
than there are to charities that care for people.
25:04
And that's where I see that we need to see a shift in society.
25:07
Do we need a reformation in society where people will care
25:10
for their fellow man and they will, they will speak out for
25:13
the weak, the poorer, the marginalised and the oppressed.
25:15
They will want to make a bigger difference in the lives of
25:18
everyday people and they will care about where that car is
25:21
coming from or goods and services.
25:23
Like if I give you an example, there's a product that women use
25:27
primarily for the shimmer effect on makeup.
25:31
It's the same product that's used in the pearlescent effect
25:33
on vehicles that you buy. And it's the same product that's
25:37
used primarily in electric cabling insulation.
25:40
It's a product called mica. And mica is mined in two regions
25:44
of India and one region in Madagascar.
25:47
But mica is mined primarily by 5 and 6 year old children.
25:52
So when when you buy the car or want that effect on your car, or
25:56
when you buy the makeup that gives you the shimmer effect,
25:58
people are not telling you that, but they're willfully allowing
26:01
that exploitation to happen. And I think it's, it's our, it's
26:06
our turn and our time to step up as a generation that should see
26:09
an end to this, that this should not happen.
26:12
No man, woman, or child should be exploited for the benefit of
26:15
someone else. Men, women, and children should
26:18
have their hopes and dreams fulfilled in life and not
26:21
exploited. But it takes a generation to be
26:24
shaken from the slumber that they find themselves in.
26:26
It takes a generation to want to stand up and speak out for
26:30
what's really important. You know you are getting into
26:35
the territory of business operations, ESG that is
26:40
environmental, so social and governance risk and of course
26:44
corporate responsibility and accountability.
26:48
Your work involves advising multinational corporations and
26:53
modern day slavery risks. So why is the private sector
26:56
essentially in solving this crisis?
26:59
Well, I think most businesses are driven by profit.
27:02
You know that the majority of businesses across the world have
27:05
been created because the bottom line, yeah, the bottom line,
27:09
that's what they they need to drive.
27:11
And you know, when we see ESG, a large portion of ESG is around
27:15
climate initiatives that have been launched by companies
27:18
across the world. But most of the climate
27:21
initiatives lead to an increase in exploitation.
27:24
So if you if you talk about solar panels, people want to put
27:29
solar panels on their homes and on businesses to reduce the
27:32
carbon effect of of energy production.
27:34
But the essential component within solar panels is
27:37
polysilicate. Effectively, you take silicon,
27:40
you heat it to 1500°C and it becomes polysilicate.
27:43
It's the active ingredient. The majority of the world's
27:46
polysilicate is produced in Xinjiang in China, and it's
27:49
produced by forced labour with the Uyghurs.
27:52
If you take the production of wind technology, it requires
27:55
components which are being made through slave labour.
27:58
If you take the electrification of cars, the cobalt mining
28:02
that's happening in the DRC, or the tantalum mining that's
28:05
happening both in the DRC and in other countries internationally,
28:08
it's all being done through artisanal mine and slave labour.
28:12
And what we're saying is that for us to live in a better world
28:16
where there isn't this issue of climate, we shouldn't have to
28:19
get there on the backs of individuals being exploited.
28:22
And I, I think as we've worked with multinational businesses,
28:26
we currently have a membership scheme which we, we, we run
28:29
through Slave Free Alliance and we've got 120 major
28:32
multinationals on board, including eighteen of the FTSE
28:34
100. These are companies that are
28:36
doing the absolute best they can to eradicate modern day slavery
28:40
from their business, but also through their supply chain.
28:43
And we want them to be exonerated in this space.
28:46
We want them to be lifted up as companies that we should buy
28:50
from goods and services because they are, they're wanting to
28:54
change the world that they live in.
28:55
There's still so many companies that don't care that turn a
28:58
blind eye. That is all about profit because
29:01
the shareholders are asking for a drive in profit because the CE
29:05
OS bonus is paid on a three-year basis of profit and share price
29:10
movement that then off the back of it, they will cut corners and
29:14
they will that will inevitably lead to exploitation.
29:17
For the majority of those companies that do cut corners
29:20
and lead to exploitation, it's done knowingly.
29:23
They know that what is happening.
29:24
And I think as well as us calling for the average person
29:27
to want to do something different, we need to be willing
29:30
to sit around the table and have an uncomfortable conversation
29:34
with people in power, whether that be in businesses or with
29:38
politicians, whether that be with people who are decision
29:41
makers in processes where they could do something differently.
29:45
But it it takes them to understand the importance of the
29:49
position that they sit in within the the arc of of human history,
29:54
which definitely bends towards seeing less exploitation and
29:59
more around human rights. You know, these important topics
30:04
you were touching on actually cuts across the boundaries of
30:09
branches of mutual or shared experiences that yourself and
30:15
myself have. I have that unique privilege of
30:20
having served in the NGO space, working with the Catholic
30:23
Leading Services, being on the Global Fund for Malaria grant of
30:28
serving humanitarian developmental projects in
30:33
Nigeria. You know, with the Knights of
30:35
the USUSAIDSFHR deal and Melinda Gates Foundation and seen the
30:44
amazing work that these non governmental organisations and
30:47
charitable organisations, not profit, not-for-profit
30:50
organisations are doing in the third world countries.
30:55
It's super, super amazing. And the impact, it is difficult
31:01
to quantify because it's a thankless job, because you are
31:05
not motivated by profit. But the CEOs, their pay
31:10
packages, their premiteration, their incentives are driven by
31:15
the price ending ratio of the private entities that they work
31:21
for, you know, and the money that is available to tackle anti
31:27
human trafficking is immaterial compared to the profits that
31:32
have been earned. We were fortunate to have the
31:36
CEO of the American Club a feedback on the podcast last
31:40
year, reminding the public about the importance of this very,
31:46
very difficult mountain you guys are trying to climb in this
31:50
industry. What are most businesses still
31:53
getting wrong when it comes to ethical supply teams?
31:57
Well, definitely. And I would celebrate Matt and
32:00
everything that Matt Friedman has done through the Mekong
32:03
Club. But you know, we we don't see
32:05
other people working in our space as competitors.
32:08
We see them as our team. We stand to shoulder together
32:11
because of that fight. Yeah, it's almost like a David
32:14
and Goliath fight. So we need all of the team
32:18
pulling together in the same direction.
32:20
I think that the key thing for me is around compassionate
32:23
capitalism because capitalism has done so much to drive people
32:27
out of poverty. But the the problem with
32:29
unfettered capitalism, without rules and regulations that would
32:34
safeguard individuals, you, you end up with exploitation coming
32:38
through. And I'm not Keynesian in my
32:40
approach. I I believe that capitalism
32:42
itself needs guardrails enabling everyone.
32:46
You read my mind, You read my mind.
32:49
Yeah, well, it's nobody should be competing on human rights.
32:51
And we've got organisations like in the UK, we've got a group
32:55
called Utilities Against Slavery, where we have 23 of the
32:58
largest utilities companies not acting as an oligopoly against
33:02
trade, but actually so that everyone agrees that no one's
33:05
going to compete on human rights.
33:06
And then whenever you're working in that field, if you say had 2%
33:10
of someone's supply chain by coming together, maybe you've
33:13
got 30 or 40% of people supply chain by pulling together so you
33:17
can leverage change for the good in individuals.
33:20
And that's the bit where sometimes people miss because
33:23
when we're speaking with major multinational companies, they
33:27
tell us that what they want is a standardised approach.
33:31
They want governments to agree and have the same approach
33:33
internationally because if you have, I don't know, 50 countries
33:38
and they're all operating very differently, The costs to that
33:41
business are significant. Whereas if we can all agree what
33:44
the definitions are and what needs to be done, then quite
33:48
quickly it moves to them finding a response.
33:51
So an example would be we partner and have an amazing
33:54
partnership with Exiger. Their supply chain kind of
33:58
visibility software go much further than that and broader
34:01
than that through the Exiger system.
34:04
But it gives visibility now for companies to be able to put in
34:07
their supply chain or put in their bill of materials and see
34:11
right down to the factory where those goods were produced.
34:14
And it can produce red flags for people to investigate within
34:18
their supply chain. But still so few companies are
34:21
willing to lift the stone and look to see what's under it
34:24
because for fear that actually they become aware of how widely
34:28
exposed they are to exploitation.
34:29
Now our our position is to encourage as many people as
34:33
possible to get the right tools, systems and processes so that
34:37
their companies can become a fortress to modern slavery.
34:40
So it it, it has no binds or ability to find a way into their
34:45
supply chain or into their business.
34:47
But as far as where I'm seeing things going wrong, most of it
34:51
is because there is a fear from a political world that by
34:55
bringing on board additional rules and responsibilities, that
34:59
that will be a weakness or a stumbling block for those
35:02
businesses. The way I see it is suddenly you
35:06
get a standard approach. And that standard approach means
35:09
that no one will compete on human rights and that they can
35:13
all benefit from the scale that that brings.
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35:33
So from a private sector perspective, what does genuine
35:40
corporate responsibility or corporate social
35:43
responsibilities CSR look like beyond just the PR statements?
35:49
So, so you get a lot of companies that in our sector who
35:53
would send out supply chain questionnaires to their
35:57
suppliers, which are a variably, you know, and 20 to 50 questions
36:01
that they're going to ask specifically about the business
36:04
practise of their suppliers. And they, they might align that
36:08
with a code of conduct. They might bring forward a kind
36:11
of sense of questions so that they can have some level of
36:13
plausible deniability that something is happening within
36:16
their supply chain. In reality, when you send a
36:19
questionnaire to someone, how many times are they likely to
36:23
tell you they have a problem? The most wouldn't because they'd
36:26
be fearful of that their business was going to be cut or
36:28
they would shift production somewhere else.
36:30
So a lot of the time when we see companies, it's it's going
36:34
beyond the audit process. It's going to a point and a view
36:38
where there is almost a presupposition if they're doing
36:42
it well, that modern slavery is happening.
36:44
We just need to find it. And if you're able to partner in
36:47
that way with companies, then you can effectively be a trusted
36:51
friend to come alongside them and help them with their CSR
36:55
strategy to help do what we would call gap analysis to try
36:59
and pinpoint where the problems are within their business.
37:02
And it might be around contracting, or it could be
37:04
within their actual business itself.
37:06
It could be the the people who clean their offices or who take
37:11
away their waste. It could be within their supply
37:13
chain or it could be much further up within the the kind
37:16
of full ecosystem of supply that they have.
37:20
But I think the importance is to say that if if someone's going
37:23
to take CSR strategy properly and address it fully, then the
37:28
issue of modern day slavery is right at the centre of that
37:31
because it is the the people who are involved in their business
37:34
and seeing them as stakeholders rather than as distant kind of
37:39
connectors to what they do. It's interesting that the
37:42
terminology that you utilise, the stakeholders, you know, it's
37:47
very important for a business to care about the welfare of not
37:52
just the shareholders but of course the stakeholders.
37:56
And that is the spirit of ESG reporting.
38:01
That is what ESG reporting is trying to achieve.
38:04
But in the current world of business of commerce, do you
38:12
think that ESG is becoming a true force or change?
38:15
Or is it just a box you can exercise in many organisations?
38:21
I, I think it's different in every organisation.
38:23
I think when we've gone into every different business, you,
38:27
you realise that it's not standardised.
38:29
People do business differently. So some people centralised
38:32
processing and and, and procurement, others devolve that
38:36
at a localised level, some some bring additional roles and
38:40
responsibilities, checking processes along along the
38:43
purchasing and, and buying habits that they have.
38:46
But I think ESG itself still has a legacy that it can be
38:52
significant within businesses. I think sometimes it gets a bad
38:55
Rep because it gets aligned with maybe a woke scenario of people
39:02
who are doing things that don't really matter or people put it
39:05
into a box of going, well, that's a nice to have, but not a
39:08
must have. And I think from from my
39:11
perspective, I see that the benefit of companies who lean
39:15
into this is they actually engage their employees much more
39:19
in a, in a subjective bite of a care and support.
39:22
The companies who are willing to invest into this see a much
39:25
greater return on their investment because the the
39:29
ability to look into your supply chain and understand it gives
39:32
you a much better understanding of how your business functions
39:34
and runs. Choke points are or potential
39:37
vulnerability. So by understanding who makes
39:41
your products or where the products are coming from, you're
39:44
able to build resilience into your company.
39:46
You're able to mitigate what could be your biggest risks on
39:50
your risk register. There's the significant
39:52
opportunities that people have. I think the problem that we
39:55
sometimes see is politicians will take terms and they will,
39:59
they will somehow weaponize those terms.
40:02
And use them as a as a hammer to hit over the head of people that
40:06
they don't agree with. And yet for me, the benefit for
40:10
companies to say, how much do you care about the environment?
40:13
How much do you care about the individuals who are involved in
40:16
your business and your, your stakeholder agreement?
40:19
How much do you care about governance?
40:21
Because by caring about these things, you build a business
40:24
that is built to last long term. Still, so many companies don't
40:29
land last more than one generation.
40:32
We'd love to see many more companies thinking with a long
40:35
term mindset. And you know, I sometimes think
40:37
about the people who built the cathedrals across Europe.
40:42
Sometimes it took nearly 400 years for some of those
40:45
cathedrals to be built. So you're effectively saying the
40:48
person who laid the first foundation would never get to
40:52
see it fulfilled. But they had joy and they had
40:55
passion about the legacy they were laying.
40:58
Yeah. And you stand on the shoulders
41:00
of the people who've come before you.
41:01
And therefore, when you celebrate, you celebrate not
41:04
just what you've done, but celebrate what a company could
41:07
have done long term in this issue.
41:10
And there are those companies out there that are year after
41:12
year are doing incredible things to address this issue.
41:16
And then still others that are wilfully neglecting their
41:20
responsibility and the reality of the impact that they bring to
41:24
the lives of those individuals who are involved within their
41:26
business or across all of their supply chain, you know,
41:31
speaking. Of cathedrals.
41:33
I very much appreciate 2 pieces of architecture in Europe.
41:39
That is the cathedrals and the castles.
41:41
You know, I was in Lithuania and outside the Junior's cathedral.
41:46
It is an amazing work of art, architecture, ingredients.
41:53
I don't know if you've ever been to Juniors or Connors in
41:58
Lithuania. Amazing place.
42:00
Because Castles in Northern Ireland.
42:02
Yeah, I've been to the Carafega, it's castle.
42:06
And come on, you've been to Carrick.
42:07
Fergus Castle. I think John Corsi built that
42:10
one back a long time ago I've been to.
42:14
The Cardiff Castle in Wales. I've been to the castle in
42:18
Dublin. Yeah, right.
42:20
And of course, I've been to a couple of castles in England as
42:23
well. No England's England, Wales,
42:26
Scotland, Northern Ireland and Dublin.
42:28
It's really amazing to see the solid structure and you see how
42:33
the structures are going to stand the test of time.
42:36
And in the world of audits, being an ex auditor, an ex BIG4
42:41
auditor, PWCKPMG myself, that's something we won't be saying the
42:46
word of audit. If it was not documented, it was
42:48
not done. And you see enshrined in the
42:53
culture at the tradition of those castles.
42:57
That's the oratory and you know, written that documentary of the
43:04
history of the castles are well maintained.
43:07
It's it's super, super, super amazing.
43:10
So if every CEO and listen to this podcast right now, we're to
43:16
implement just three principles from your work.
43:19
What change immediately for them?
43:23
Well, I think I think you're right.
43:25
I, I, I'm always amazed by history and growing up where I
43:28
did the, the history and and understanding why things ended
43:32
up the way that they did. The ability to see cathedrals,
43:36
castles built. That would be not just standing
43:39
the test of time, but that would pro provide protection for so
43:42
many individuals is it's kind of probably where I would start.
43:46
I think, I think one of the first principles that CEOs need
43:50
to think about is that I think, you know, growing up where I did
43:53
and umm, living in the world that I did, seeing cathedrals
43:57
and castles being built, castles did stand the test of time, But
44:00
they were there to protect the people because there was a sense
44:04
of overarming, overwhelming understanding that they wanted
44:08
to have the community there for a long time.
44:10
They didn't want to be influenced by people
44:12
internationally. So they wanted to make sure that
44:14
they would protect their people locally from an international
44:17
threat. And in many occasions we saw how
44:20
the Vikings came in or the Normans or whoever it would be
44:24
that would, that would invade and looking to, to press their,
44:27
their, their views on the world and, and change the culture of
44:31
the, the entirety of the UK. I think in the same way we see
44:35
this need for companies to see that long term, they need to
44:39
protect the individual business that they have.
44:43
You know, there are companies in the UK where one news report
44:47
went out about modern day slavery in their business on a
44:50
Sunday. And by the Tuesday, they'd lost
44:52
2 billion of their share price, which they still have not
44:55
regained. And that's because it's not just
44:59
a threat to the people who are within that exploitation, it's a
45:03
threat to the public image that they have within their business
45:07
investors will not want to invest in.
45:10
Yeah, absolutely. I think one of the principles is
45:13
to think about, and this is so front and centre to most CE OS
45:18
that I speak to, they pour over their risk register.
45:21
They are desperate about trying to get mitigation strategies in
45:25
terms of what they're doing. I would say one of them is
45:28
around protection. By approaching this subject, it
45:31
enables you to protect your business and to protect your
45:34
supply chain. The second part of it is I think
45:37
it requires people to invest. There is a need for people to
45:41
not see something always as a cost but an investment.
45:45
And when you start to see the benefit can be because companies
45:48
like Tony's Chocaloni have come out very loudly about the impact
45:53
that they are making around trying to find issues of modern
45:56
day slavery across their supply chain.
45:59
They've highlighted it. They've talked about the
46:01
importance of caring for all of those people as stakeholders
46:05
within their process and that that then changes that cut on
46:09
your budget from being a cost to an investment.
46:12
And I think if, if companies think about, you know, the the
46:16
reality of what they need to do protect, they also need to think
46:19
about their investments. And the third thing that I, I
46:22
would ask of CE OS is that they would care because when ACEO
46:27
cares about something, it shifts the entire business.
46:30
If they're people always say that whatever you focus on
46:35
develops. If you focus your camera on a
46:37
certain area, it will develop a picture into that area.
46:39
If a focus from ACEO is given to this area, then somehow you will
46:44
see the business like a big tanker would change direction.
46:48
And it might only be a couple of degrees of direction of the
46:51
changes. But if you set off a tanker from
46:53
the West Coast of Ireland to America, you're only 1° off.
46:57
By the time you reach America, you will be 1000 miles off your
47:00
destination. And I suppose what I would say
47:03
of CE OS is that they need to have their focus and intention
47:07
on this issue in a way that they're not divesting it to
47:10
someone at a lower level within the business to carry that
47:13
responsibility. Because when something goes
47:16
wrong, if they aren't holding that responsibility, then it
47:19
leads to what is commonly known as swoop and poop leadership,
47:23
where they end up going into that area and having to go all
47:26
over those individuals to try and deal and address with what
47:29
the issue is. I'm saying no, take the
47:32
responsibility. So if you're gonna protect your
47:34
business, if you're gonna invest your business in this, in this
47:37
area. But the third thing that CEOs
47:39
need to do is they need to focus on this.
47:41
They need to get an understanding and awareness
47:44
because once people have that awareness, awareness leads to
47:47
action. And it might not be that their
47:49
business is wholly complicit in what is happening, but maybe by
47:53
just asking some questions of their supply chains, maybe by
47:56
encouraging their management team or their executive team to
48:00
address this issue that leads to massive changes in the lives of
48:04
ordinary people and, and, and sees their world change for the
48:07
better. So.
48:10
That is such a great way to say we too an uncomfortable
48:14
question. What are the uncomfortable
48:17
truths about capitalism and global supply chains that we are
48:22
still avoiding today? There are many, I think the.
48:26
First one is that capitalism see legislation potentially as a
48:31
hindrance rather than it being a protection.
48:34
I think there there needs to be far more of an awareness in
48:39
capitalism that it is the power of a free market with rules and
48:45
regulations that lead to a thriving.
48:50
Society. That you don't get to a thriving
48:53
society just from a free market. You need to have cheques and
48:57
balances. There needs to be needs to be a
49:00
kind of an approach that is taken where we welcome
49:04
legislation coming in not as another hurdle to be jumped
49:08
over, but so that we all don't run off the edge of the Cliff
49:12
together. And I think the the biggest
49:15
uncomfortable truth is that most businesses don't welcome
49:20
legislation. Most businesses run from
49:22
legislation. If they could avoid it that they
49:25
would do definitely. The second area that I think
49:28
around capitalism is around that there are levers on in different
49:31
businesses to try and address this issue.
49:33
One of them is within in banks. You know banks are are used by
49:38
many big businesses internationally to process funds
49:43
from the worker that they do. But banks also invest and give
49:47
loans and overdraft facilities to businesses for the work that
49:50
they do. Banks can do more to address
49:53
this issue by directly encouraging people to address
49:58
the the risks and the the issues that they have within their
50:02
business. The second one that is linked to
50:04
that is insurance. Insurance companies provide
50:07
insurance for the work that businesses do.
50:10
You know, if you if you don't have a bank account, you can go
50:12
down the road and get another one.
50:13
But if an insurance company blocks you from getting
50:16
insurance, your business is over.
50:18
There are roles within banks and insurance companies that they
50:21
can do more to address this issue.
50:24
And then the third one I would, I would say is around investors.
50:28
Investors. Need to.
50:30
Invest not just based on returns.
50:33
They need to see the whole ecosystem that they're investing
50:36
into and know that whenever they call for change, CE OS and
50:42
executives sit up and take notice.
50:45
Because if an investor says, hey, I'm not going to invest
50:47
unless you change and the number is big enough, those companies
50:51
will change. I think with the maybe the way
50:54
the capitalism is to save the tune, yeah, that's very much
50:59
the. Tune very much, but I think.
51:02
That the with the way that capitalism is set up, not enough
51:05
time is given at universities where people are studying or
51:10
training courses or leadership studies.
51:11
That people are given to show the importance of the role that
51:14
they have within society. Society heard it once said that
51:18
society thrives when men plant trees that they they'll never
51:22
have the ability to sit under the shade of.
51:25
I think society thrives whenever CEOs plant and do the work that
51:30
is required to effectively protect people, irrespective of
51:33
whether they're going to be long term in that business or not.
51:36
They've built the protections, they brought the people in, they
51:39
brought the systems and processes in that would change
51:42
the way that their business would see this issue.
51:45
And that is the uncomfortable truth that we, we, we do like
51:49
cheap products, goods and services.
51:51
We want to, we want to get a deal, we want to get a bargain.
51:55
When we're getting that new shirt or that pair of headphones
51:58
or whatever it is, we don't, we don't ever think about the
52:00
things that come from, from the reality of the purchase that we
52:04
make or that we might be complicit in some of the
52:07
exploitation of individuals because we wanted those cheap
52:10
products. So I'd, I'd encourage any
52:13
business that that is listening or any person who from a
52:16
business listening that they would, they would also start to
52:19
ask some uncomfortable questions about what they're doing and,
52:23
and ways in which they could do it better.
52:26
So from a personal. Leadership and our inner
52:30
architecture standpoint. Who met as the leader?
52:33
You know, I am a member of the School of Mentors that is the
52:38
world's largest online community of entrepreneurs.
52:43
And every mentor has a mentor. So who is that mentor to you,
52:49
the leader who is expected to hold everyone else accountable?
52:52
Yeah, I have a number of. Mentors and I've had over the
52:55
years, I think up until he retired, I was being mentored by
53:00
Pat Gelsinger, the global CEO of Intel, and alongside that, Rich
53:05
divinity. Rich was the head of Delta Force
53:07
for the Navy Seals. And both men carry a level of
53:10
leadership and understanding. But I lean in and learn from a
53:14
number of individuals and I take every day as a school day.
53:17
I can always be learning. I can always be leaning in, you
53:20
know, the books that you're reading, the impact that you're
53:23
making. I'll, I'll, I'll show you from
53:24
the floor the latest book that I'm reading at the moment, The
53:29
world of work to 2030, a book, amazing book by Russell Beck.
53:35
But I believe that you can learn a lot from individuals who can
53:38
speak directly into your life beyond books.
53:41
And I think you have to have a level of vulnerability and
53:43
honesty that you're prepared to go into and know that you're not
53:49
the essential font. I would say this of all of our
53:52
team as well. No one of us is smarter than all
53:54
of us collectively, and therefore as somebody else pours
53:58
into you, they can give you a level of wisdom, understanding,
54:01
but also a check in in who you are and what you can do.
54:05
Absolutely, you know. Upward and downward feedback is
54:09
very, very essential. Speaking of Russell's.
54:12
Have you ever heard of a guy called Russell Bronson?
54:15
Sorry, do you want to repeat it? I.
54:16
Didn't hear that clearly. Have you ever?
54:19
Heard of a guy called Russell Brunson?
54:21
Russell Brunton. No, it's not the name that I'm
54:24
familiar. Brunson.
54:25
Brunson, just like our the Virgin Atlantic guy.
54:31
Richard Branson. About Richard Branson.
54:33
Yeah, OK. OK, interesting.
54:36
But there there is another guy who is making a lot of impact
54:39
his his name is Russell Branson. You should check him out.
54:44
OK, Absolutely. So Speaking of the legacy, what
54:49
message would you want every policy maker you know and
54:53
captures of industry and educators to take away from this
54:58
episode with you think? From the words of Maximus
55:03
Aurelius, from the words of Gladiator, that that what we do
55:07
in this life echoes in eternity. And I think you you've taken a
55:11
message like this and you realise that it's an
55:14
uncomfortable position for legislators, for business
55:17
people, because most don't want to hear about what's happening
55:20
to people who are being brutally abused and kind of enslaved.
55:24
Most don't want to hear about what's going on.
55:26
So I would want them to realise that what they do matters kinds
55:30
way beyond their life into the lives of many other people who
55:34
are yet to live. Because if you change one
55:36
person's trajectory, you potentially change everybody who
55:40
comes through them internationally.
55:43
And that we can live in a world free from slavery, that we can
55:47
genuinely live in a world that would be different.
55:49
But it just takes people to live for others and live in a way
55:53
that's not focused so much on themselves, but about what they
55:56
can do to help those people that are needing their help.
56:00
Absolutely so. I'm going to take you to the
56:04
quick fire round. It's five questions.
56:06
Fast, personal rebellion. So Are you ready to rumble?
56:12
I'm on. Let's make it happen.
56:15
Let's go. So our number one name a book
56:19
that set your leadership style at the advantage by.
56:22
Patrick Lencioni interested in that twice. #2 Name one truth
56:29
about power most people avoid. That power without cheques and
56:35
balances can lead to the destruction of individuals,
56:40
businesses and countries. The cheques and balances are
56:43
there for power so that it can be focused but not destructive.
56:50
An example would be a laser can be be used to cut things
56:56
effectively, but it can also be used as a destructive tool to to
57:01
destroy in battle. And therefore we need to be
57:03
clear about what power is and about how we can use it more
57:06
effectively. That's two.
57:09
Do you have a third, let's say power corrupt and?
57:11
Absolute power curbs absolutely. So what is 1 habit that every
57:16
leader should the habit of? Being able to be interrupted, I
57:21
think most leaders, leaders can close the door and not want to
57:25
have people in their business as involved as stakeholders in a
57:31
process. But I think the best, best
57:33
leaders are able to speak last and listen first, to be
57:39
interrupted and to enable people that they don't agree with to
57:44
sit around the same table. Because I've never learned
57:48
anything from someone I really agree with.
57:50
I've only let learned things, new ways of doing things, new
57:54
approaches from people I disagree with or people I don't
57:57
have the same level of alignment with.
57:59
So let's have some uncomfortable conversations in places with
58:03
people where I'm willing to be disrupted for the benefit of the
58:08
overall organisation, being a lifelong student.
58:12
And what is 1 dangerous myth about human trafficking that
58:16
everyone should know the myth is that it's.
58:19
Happening in just Southeast Asia, when actually it's
58:22
happening all over the world. It's happening in cities across
58:25
the US, across the UK, in where you are in South Africa, across
58:30
the the world that we're starting to see that it happens
58:33
in cities and times in plain sight.
58:36
Interest in fact. So what is one word you want
58:39
survivors to reclaim as their identity?
58:42
One word that survivors. Claim is their identity.
58:46
Yeah, you would want. Them to reclaim as their
58:48
identity that they are heard. Because so often traffickers
58:53
will silence the individuals that their voice cannot carry.
58:57
But when your voice is heard, then you are remembered and your
59:01
name is known. And it takes you from being a
59:05
commodity that someone uses to a friend, a person that you
59:09
connect with, to a person that you do business with.
59:12
It takes you to being a real person.
59:15
So rather than a human doing, you become a human being.
59:18
You're not just a number, you. Or matter.
59:23
You are important. Wow, wow.
59:26
This is something I'll always love to see that an attitude of
59:31
gratitude is good attitude. And when a person takes their
59:34
time with you, they share their life with you because the SI
59:37
unit for measuring life is time. So for me, to you, it's love and
59:43
massive respect to you. I thank you very much for your
59:45
time today. The Kingdom's podcast and
59:47
Diana's CFO. Would you like to give a shout
59:52
out to anyone before you leave? And what would be your closing
59:56
statement? Yeah, I just thanked.
59:58
Like to thank all of our team who are involved across the
1:00:01
world making the biggest difference to try and address
1:00:03
this issue. I'd like to thank those people
1:00:05
who enable us to do what we do by giving to us.
1:00:09
Those people who support us and get behind us.
1:00:11
Those people who go on our website and dig into what we're
1:00:15
doing. Those people who are politicians
1:00:16
who are prepared to step up and and bring bring forward great
1:00:21
policies, businesses that will get involved with Slave Free
1:00:23
Alliance. I'd like to thank all of those
1:00:25
people who are also in the sector and doing their part,
1:00:29
standing shoulder to shoulder with us to make the biggest
1:00:31
difference, because we truly believe that one day we can live
1:00:34
in a world free from slavery. Absolutely.
1:00:38
And of course, a massive thank you to you Team Nelson for your
1:00:42
time today on the podcast. And of course, will the massive
1:00:46
positive impact that you achieve by way of the work that you do,
1:00:51
it is actually very, very important and to the audience.
1:00:56
Conceive belief, strive to thrive and achieve.
1:00:59
Always go for something in your lives and to like have your way
1:01:03
next time. Stay out of trouble, be
1:01:05
responsible and of course, fight the good.
1:01:08
Fight me. It's goodbye.
1:01:11
And of course, from Team Nelson, it is goodbye.