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How the West Became the Ideal Home for Anti-Western Ideas | Danny Burmawi · Infidels

• Richard Landes: We're here with Danny Burmaui, the founder and director of the Ideological Defense Institute and recent citizen of the United States. Danny, how are you? Not yet. Okay. Danny Burmawi: Not a citizen yet, hopefully soon. Yeah. Richard Landes: so how long have you been in the States? Danny Burmawi: Three years and two months. Richard Landes: Three years and two months. So that was before October seventh. Danny Burmawi: Just a couple months before October seven years. Richard Landes: So tell us what brought you here and and what the reaction what October seventh brought your way. Danny Burmawi: So before October seventh, for fifteen years I was engaged in the Christian missions work in the Middle East. And in twenty twenty three we had our first son or only son, and security city the security situation in the Middle East was getting worse and worse. And you know, with a a new born son, it was not safe for me to continue doing the work I was doing. So I decided to move to the United States to continue my studies and you know continue working in the same field. And I arrived in the United States in August 2023, and a couple months later, October seventh happened. And just the night before October seven, there was a new movie I was watching just the night before October seven, I was watching God Damer. There was a movie about God the Mayer. And I went to bed and for the morning it was Hamas doing what they did on October seventh. So I have always been you know fascinated by how the Zemic Ward has this self-destructive approach to every foreign policy, and The week before October seventh, Mohammed bin Salman gave an interview to Fox News and he was talking about the possibility of peace with Israel. So I was like seeing that as great thing. So you know, pursuing peace in the Middle East could change everything, even though I'm not convinced that is possible with Islam. But anyway, I was like, okay, this is like I'm I'm gonna be pragmatic. Richard Landes: You were hopeful. Danny Burmawi: Yeah, and yeah, I was I was actually a supporter of Mohammed bin Salman and what he was doing in Saudi Arabia. And when he gave that interview to Fox News, I was like, okay, this is amazing. You know, he's talking about ongoing negotiations with Israel. So anyway, when October seventh happened, I realized that was Iran sending their Dug Hound or Hounds Doug, I don't know how you say it, to Richard Landes: Hound dogs. Danny Burmawi: Yeah, to jeopardize the peace talks between Saudi Arabia and and Israel. so I recorded a video in Arabic and I explained what I believed was the situation, what was happening. It was Iran refusing to see the Arab world going into peace with Israel. And that video went viral. And then I kept recording videos in Arabic on my TikTok platform. I was not on X at the time. And for the first time ever, I felt like I can say whatever I want because for the first time I was in the United States, freedom of speech. I'm not concerned about security anymore because you know I'm not in the Middle East. So that was like something new for me. But anyway, I would say that the moment that changed everything for me was few days after October seventh, I was in Chicago. sitting at at a bench in the Millennium Park and I was on the phone speaking with a friend in Lebanon in Arabic and a lady with her children she sat next to me on the bench and then when she heard me speak in Arabic she abruptly left she took her children and just walked away. I was not paying attention, but my wife pointed to the fact that the lady had Star of David necklace around her neck. So I understood what happened. She was she was afraid because even before Israel retaliated, even as Jewish people were burying their dead, the streets of western cities were erupted with protesters. calling for a genocide in Israel and praising Hamas. Richard Landes: Calling for a genocide in Israel or accusing Israel of genocide? Danny Burmawi: Yeah, yeah, calling for no no no calling for a genocide in Israel by saying from the river to the sea. That is a call for a genocide in Israel. So even before Israel retaliated. So what what happened, it's like what that woman did, the way she acted, doesn't made me realize that the monster I run away from in the Middle East has made its way to the West ahead of me. Because in the heart of in the heartland of America, a Jewish woman doesn't feel safe. And I decided to start or to change the nature of the mission of my work. even though even though I still believe this is a Christian mission, I'm not away from that field, the field of you know, Christian service, Christian ministry. but I decided to even for fifteen years I I I made the decision that I'm not gonna be polemic against Islam. Because I was living in the Middle East, I didn't need you know, I had to remain really low profile. Richard Landes: You didn't need enemies. Danny Burmawi: Yeah, it's like it was wor b very bad as as it is. So anyway, I started writing and speaking in Arabic actually for the following year. And then I realized like, what am I doing? What why I am speaking in Arabic? I need to speak to people in the West who, you know, because Islam is being rebranded. Zamik Jihad is being painted as resistance and liberation movements and s and s and things like that. So I was like, no, we need we need to educate the West. And then at the end of twenty twenty four, I believe, just a couple of years ago, I started writing in English and you know, the rest is history. Richard Landes: Hmm. And so so you change the direction of your ministry in what direction? Danny Burmawi: So b basically I was involved in evangelism, proselytization, in the positive meaning of proselytism. but Richard Landes: Voluntary. Danny Burmawi: Yeah, of course. Richard Landes: Of course. Danny Burmawi: So now the mission is different because my mission now is to educate policymakers because I believe that policy is the translation of ideas into laws. And these foreign hostile ideas that are invading the West are being pushed to be translated into laws. And that is going to change or transform the society. It's going to destroy the Western civilization. Because when you change the story that built the West, then the West will be gone. This is number one, number two, to educate the church about Islam. Because the church thinks of Islam as just another religion and they deal with Muslims the same way they deal with Jews or atheists or anyone's like, we want to tell you about Jesus, and they think that's how you deal with Islam. But the the thing is that Islam is a citizenship, it's not a religion. And as a citizenship, even if you convert the religious component of an individual, that doesn't mean he changed his citizenship and loyalty. So it is it is something that we have experience in and you know I I I put together a fascinating group of people. All of us are infidels, former Muslims and Arab Christians, and people from the West who are also experienced in Islam. You know, these people they haven't graduated from an elite school in Washington that is funded by Qatar. They did not study at the Middle Eastern Studies faculty or Islamic studies faculty, you know, no. Or someone who spent a week in Istanbul or in Beirut and they think, my goodness, we're experts. No, we are people who are who lived in that world and absorbed it and were shaped by it. And I believe that we have the highest authority possible when it comes to Islam in the West. Richard Landes: So let me ask you I mean you came here at the age of what? Danny Burmawi: thirty six. Richard Landes: Okay, so for thirty-six years you had varying impressions about what the West was. And if I understand correctly, you were immensely surprised by what you found when you got here. Danny Burmawi: Yes, that's that's correct. You know, as someone who studied theology and religions and someone who traveled the world and someone who understands that the society that Islam produces is stagnated, is backward, is a society that doesn't have freedom of conscience, individual liberties. I always looked at the West as the product of the Judeo Christian heritage and the prosperity, the freedom, even even though there are like things that I don't accept in the West, of course, culturally, but that doesn't change the fact that the West is the greatest civilization in human history. And you know, Jesus said that the good and the bad grow together, so it in the kingdom of God. So I believe that the the Western civilization is the closest we got to the kingdom of God. And the good and the bad are growing together, but one day the good is gonna prevail and gonna last. But when I came to the West, I was shocked to see that at least a couple or three generations of Americans, at in particular in America, they were indoctrinated to hate the West, to see the West as a result of exploitation. Blame the West for all the crimes that were practiced by the entire human race, but only the w the West. And Israel was an extension of the West. Israel is the root of Western civilization, but it it is in its current form is the fruit of Western civilization. It is the only country in the region, for example, where you are really free. So I came here and I found that, as I said, a couple or three generations of Americans, they hate America and they are absorbing these third world ideas. And Richard Landes: Now, if I understand you, that's mostly the people who are the product of the elite universities. What about the rest of Americans? Danny Burmawi: Mm. So the majority of Americans, they They don't watch news that much. They know the president, they know the vice president, and they go to work. They don't have time to get engaged with the cultural debates about anything. So they get their information from a specific channel, specific angle. And their children go to schools and they get brainwashed or indoctrinated about the history of America and colonialism and slavery and and so forth and so on. And it is bit by bit, slowly it shapes the society in a certain way. So, for example, American kindness and American tolerance is not tolerance and it's not kindness. It is the result of false perception of who they are. so I will give Richard Landes: Hmm. Explain. Danny Burmawi: you yeah, I will give you example. the other day I shared a video. it's this young guy he was speaking about what tolerance is, and he he was talking about the ultra Orthodox Jews in Israel, and he said the ultra Orthodox Jews they don't like Christians. Of course I know that they don't like even secular Jews, but I mean let's say they don't like Christians and their sentiment is very negative about Christians, especially Christians who are trying to convert other Jews. But and sometimes we see that someone is spitting on the ground next to a church or whatever. But what he said is like really blew my mind. He said, But look, they stop at persecution. They don't persecute Christians, they tolerate them. That is tolerance. Tolerance. Richard Landes: Not liking but not persecuting. Danny Burmawi: Exactly. Tolerance is towards something you don't like. American tolerance is not like that. American tolerance is submitting. You're not even allowed to say, I don't like this idea. It is clothed with false respect and appreciation, even though behind the closed doors you don't like it. But you have to become a hypocrite in order to be a tolerant in America. In Israel, you don't have to do that. You can say, I don't like you, but you know, I'm gonna respect the law. So this tolerance, this false tolerance in America or false kindness, is the result of inner belief that. America or Americans, they don't deserve what they have. They have something that they stole from other cultures, from other nations. Richard Landes: What they stole freedom? Danny Burmawi: Well, so you know, in that in the in Marxism, freedom or slavery or whatever, it's all product of it's all social construct that were imposed by the economical situation around you. So America is able to have freedom because of the prosperity it has, which was built on the exploitation of other Richard Landes: Nice. Danny Burmawi: nations. So this sick idea that Ideas are not the reason behind certain outcome. Ideas are the outcome of certain situations. So, the ideas that built the Western civilization don't exist. They're not superior to other ideas. Western civilization is the product of economic aggression and imperialism. Islam, the ideas that You know, produce jihad and death and conquest. It's not the ideas. It is economical situation that was imposed by the colonial power on the Muslim world that made them violent. So that is how the world is seen from this perspective. It's like the content or the ideas, they don't matter. So freedom is just a fog. It is not a real thing. and violence is just an outcome of imperialism and so forth and so on. And that's why I always say When you try to convince the useful idiots, that leftist in the West that Islam is violent, it has violent ideas, they laugh at you because they don't care. Because they don't care about the content of Islam. They believe that this content was the result of another force that imposed yeah, imposed a certain situation. Yeah. Richard Landes: Which is and that's them. Right. And that's their culture. So one of the things we call this is virtue signaling, which is you have to show Danny Burmawi: Yeah, yeah. Richard Landes: how compassionate you are. And yet, and this is clearly revealed in October seventh, and the reaction of the we call them Palestinianists. the Palestinianists in the In the West, their response to October 7th was to either deny the violence or welcome it as resistance at the same moment as their virtue signaling their compassion for the suffering of the Palestinians. And and so this is the way that the Jihad manipulate the compassion of the West because it's not genuine? Danny Burmawi: Yeah. so this is intersectionality. It's like all the groups that are are weak and underdogs, they're right and the powerful is always wrong. So this is like this is one element, but we have like different elements. let me ask you this question to answer your question. How Richard Landes: Go ahead. Danny Burmawi: many how many people, how many Arabs or Palestinians did Israel kill between nineteen forty eight and October seventh? Do you have a number? Richard Landes: Thirty thousand? Danny Burmawi: Something like that. Yeah, it's like even theory is like at the higher end, probably it's twenty-three or twenty-four. Okay, so in seventy-five years of this conflict, Israel killed twenty-five thousand people in tens of wars and hundreds of events and clashes with with the Arab world. And then Israel on October seventh decided to commit a genocide. That doesn't make sense. But what about the Western the West Bank, Judea and Samura? How many air air attack did Israel launch against the West Bank? Zero. why? because there was no threat, there were no missiles coming out of the West Bank, so Israel did not use air air power or air force in response. Now these facts they don't matter. What matters is that Israel is powerful and Hamas is not. So we are going to hold Israel to higher standards that do not apply to the weak. The powerful, they have higher standards to be judged by. So when you see these thousands of people on the streets. Chanting g'instrael and praising Hamas and praising ResiS. Richard Landes: Globalize globalize the antivada. Danny Burmawi: Globalize the antifada. What is the antifada? In their mind, the antifada is now this is really important. In their mind, the antifadah is a revolution against the powerful, against the oppressor. That is why people who call for defunding the police and people who are jihadists, Muslim who love jihad, can march together. Because the police is the tool of the powerful, and Hamas is the weak fighting or rising against the powerful. So Richard Landes: Resistance. Danny Burmawi: that is that is why people who are against ICE, people who are against national sovereignty, and want open borders and People who are transgenders, they are against a society that doesn't tolerate this perversion and people who are for Palestine and Muslims, all of them can march together. It's like what w why? What is the common Richard Landes: Right. Right. Danny Burmawi: ground? Yeah. Richard Landes: Right. So this is like the jihadi's dream to have useful infidels like this who believe their narrative for infidel consumption. We're the resistance, they're the oppressors, we're the weak, they're the strong. I was always struck by the term entifada, which is I understand means the sort of shaking of the skin that a great beast does to shake off a fly. And clearly in that metaphor, Israel's the fly and they're the great beast, and yet they got the West to believe that the Palestinians are the little guy and the Israelis are the bully. Danny Burmawi: Yeah. Muslims in the West, they especially after nine eleven, they were struggling because they became a suspect. And so it was not easy for them to support any Islamic cause or any Islamic movement. They had to be really very careful. And then the useful infidels, they came and they gave them like dissolution on a golden plate. They said, Okay, come on. You want to support jihad, but you don't know how. Here, use our lexicon. Let's say Hamas is a liberation movement. Let's say Al Qaeda is a response to American hegemony and hegemony and American aggression. let's call the Islamization of the West civil rights organizations. Richard Landes: Right, right. Danny Burmawi: And so it's like they provided them with alternatives and now you see Muslims calling for liberating Palestine, but in fact they know what they are doing. They are calling for jihad against Jews. Richard Landes: Okay, but do do the I mean Lenin's term for these people was useful idiots. I I call them useful infidels. Danny Burmawi: Yeah. I like that actually, yeah. I like this even better. Richard Landes: do they know every once in a while useful idiotic infidels just to make sure that people understand how how the folly involved? do you think that they went to the Jihad and said, Let us help you with your PR problem? Or were they just did they d do they realize what they're doing? Danny Burmawi: Of course, of course not. What what's happening is that the useful idiots they look at Islam and they see a gold mine. Islam is full of fury, Islam is confident, Islam is loud, aggressive, non-Western, Richard Landes: Numerous Danny Burmawi: non-white, non-Christian. So All these components together, they're like gold for these full idiots. They want to use Islam to achieve their goals. Now they understand that Islam is a totalitarian system, Islam is also a threat to them, but they in their mind, let's let's postpone that debate until later. Let's deal with Islam later. Now let's use Islam to achieve our goals. And Muslims, on the other hand. Richard Landes: And they don't look at what happened in Iran. Danny Burmawi: Yeah, they they're they're aware, but they always believe that next time we're gonna do it better. Next time we're gonna do Richard Landes: Ha ha ha. Danny Burmawi: it right. Yeah, it's like when when you talk to a communist or to mo to a Muslim, both of them believe in utopia. and Richard Landes: Right. Right, right. Danny Burmawi: both of them they have zero evidence that their utopia works. Then you ask them what happened, like why you were not able to achieve that utopia. They always tell you it was applied in the wrong way. Next time we're gonna apply it right. So Sharia, Richard Landes: Let's try again. Let's try again. Danny Burmawi: for example, a Sharia society produced Somalia, Afghanistan, and you ask Muslims, okay, you want Sharia, look at Somalia, and they tell you no no, they're applying it their own way. under Sharia we will have the most prosperous, most just society. It's like, okay, can you show me? Can you give me a one example? They don't. So that that's that's how they are this symbiotic. I actually called Richard Landes: Right. Danny Burmawi: it once in an article, I called it masturbattery or masturbatory alliance. And my my friend he told me, No, you cannot use this word But it's like Richard Landes: No, no, no. I call it I call it I call it the marriage of pre modern sadism and postmodern masochism. Danny Burmawi: I like that. Richard Landes: Yeah. So but I mean, one of the things involved in that is I don't know if you know this, but my work as a medievalist was on what we call millennial movements, apocalyptic movements that believe that now is the time for utopia to be brought on. And the active movements like communism and like jihad, have this and I think that, you know, starting clearly at Durban, but already being prepared for decades, you have this phenomenon where Western millenarian revolutionaries see in Islam pretty much what you just described, that is, the energy for their movement. And so Danny Burmawi: Yes, it it's fuels it's fuels their movement. I Richard Landes: Right. So Danny Burmawi: mean I mean without without Islam, without Gaza, without Islamophobia, without these Islamic causes, what do they have as fuel? They have BLM, Richard Landes: Yeah. Danny Burmawi: Georgia Floyd, and they melked Georgia Floyd to the maximum. Transgenderism, so Richard Landes: And transgender and transgender. Danny Burmawi: but nothing comes close to what Islam gives them. Richard Landes: Right. Danny Burmawi: Islam gives them Richard Landes: Right. Danny Burmawi: like a transnational cause that could bring everybody together. It's like BLM, you can you can use it in America, you know, you can probably use it somewhere in the some European countries. transgenderism, the same thing, but with Islam you can use it everywhere. It's like you can get people from anywhere in the world to join your cause. So it is it is gold mine. Richard Landes: Wow. So you're basically now what evidence is there that there are people who see through this, other than people in your institute? Danny Burmawi: Well, I don't claim that we are like pioneers in this di diagnosis. No, there were people before us, they wrote about this this unholy alliance. David actually the the person who came up with this term, the unholy alliance, David was David w Wallowitz or David he's the founder of the American Freedom Foundation. in his book The Unholy Alliance, he came up with this term. And there are other people too. of course, Bernard Lewis. there's I have a book here I'm trying to find. It's written by a Muslim journalist, the wok army. but the problem is that none of them associated Islam. as the problem or diagnose the Islam as the problem. All of them would say Islamism, jihad. IDI, what IDI is doing, then that is new. And it is exactly what should have been done s from the beginning is to identify the problem. And the problem is Islam. It's not some political movement or political component within Islam that you know certain people are pushing. No, no, this is Islam. It's real Islam. Yesterday or two days ago, I'm sorry, gone. Richard Landes: Yeah, so so that so the driving the driving problem the driving force is Islam and these people being enablers of that are part of the problem, but the real core of the problem is and I I mean I use the term supremacist Islam. That is Muslims who believe that their religion is so superior to everything else that they have a right literally to kill the nonbelievers. Danny Burmawi: Lo let me be clear, Richard, okay. Do you remember when those people in the Hamptons were calling for ob open borders and illegal immigrations, you know, these ultra wealthy people? And then I don't remember who who put the illegal immigrants on buses and sent them to the Hamptons and they refused to let them in. Do you remember that from like a couple of years ago or three years ago? It was Richard Landes: Yeah, I don't know if it was the Hamptons, but yes. Yeah, it's called NIMBY, not in my backyard. Danny Burmawi: Yeah, yeah, it's like no, it was. I I believe it was the Hamptons. But anyway, Richard Landes: Okay. Danny Burmawi: I believe that the useful idiots they see Islam the same way these elite see illegal immigrants. That useful idiots they don't care about Islam. Islam is irrelevant to them, it is just a weapon to be used now. But They disagree with almost everything Islamic. They disagree with how Islam treats women, how Islam Richard Landes: Right. Right. Danny Burmawi: treats homosexuals, how Islam treats individual liberties. Everything Islamic is they abhor Islam. But now they have to, you know, it's like this reminds me of Muslims in Egypt who saw the Muslim Brotherhood as the legitimate player. In re-establishing the caliphate and the Islamic polity, but they still went and supported the army in taking over the country and overthrowing the Muslim Brotherhood. And they used a term in Arabic to explain their situation. They said, Okay, we are forcing ourselves to do this because of your performance. The Muslim Brotherhood performed really bad that they forced even their supporters to go against them now. the the useful idiots they are forcing themselves to stand up for this barbaric ideology that is called Islam. not because they are better their ideas are not better but because they don't agree with Islam on anything. So except the enemy of course. So now they are using they're using Islam but and they they see Islam as a useful Think and let me tell you this. Muslims in America or in the West, they wouldn't have a chance without the useful idiots. They don't have the means, they don't have the know-how, they don't have anything. And they're not good. You know, they're not good at building institutions like look at the Islamic world. They learned from you know other groups in the West, but the useful idiots they are the the ones who are helping. Muslims to gain momentum and to seize ground. Richard Landes: So it seems to me there are at least two and possibly three explanations for this behavior. On the one hand, and I think that you've emphasized this so far, there's a sort of ideological thirst for revolutionary movement, what I would call apocalyptic movement, and therefore they're aligning with another apocalyptic group and they're aligning around a shared antichrist. Dajile, namely the great and little Satan, whichever one US and Israel are. so that's one Danny Burmawi: Yeah, and Islam in Islam in Islam that the Jal is mythological creature is not it's not a country, but yeah, they could like they could use Richard Landes: Well, so's the so's the antichrist. Danny Burmawi: yeah, they could use like the symbolism. yeah. Richard Landes: Right, it's it's the embodiment of evil that must be destroyed for the utopia to come. Danny Burmawi: Yeah. Richard Landes: Okay, so one explanation is this this you describe it quite strikingly as a kind of thirst. another explanation and could explain not necessarily the the leaders of these useful infidels, but the people who don't object would be that they're afraid. That, you know, as tr at the time of the Danish cartoon scandal, somebody said to a a British journ journalist who had just given an award to a really nasty, vicious anti Israel, anti Semitic cartoon. And he said, You know, why don't you show Arafat eating babies? And he said, Well, Jews don't do fatwas, do they? Danny Burmawi: They don't do fat was. Yeah. Yeah. Richard Landes: Right. So we feel free to dump on them, but we're scared to dump on Muslims. I mean you you Danny Burmawi: That's that's exactly why what we have seen with Tucker Carlson inviting Christians, Arab Christians from Israel and Christians from Jordan, and interviewing them together and getting the Arab Christian from Israel to say whatever he wanted about Israel, vinifying Israel, and it without it telling or informing the audience that this person from Israel He can say whatever he wants and go back to his bed and sleep peacefully and nobody's gonna do anything to him. And this Richard Landes: Right. Right. Danny Burmawi: Arabic Christian from Jordan, he cannot say anything against or even tell the truth, because he cannot go back to his house. He will be killed. So this is exactly what you just described. Richard Landes: So here you are, it's after October seventh, you realize that the real y your analysis of the problem, you try and talk to Western policymakers. Now, are the Western policymakers themselves already filled with this sort of Western guilt and self-loathing? Or are they people who see what you're trying to say but don't know how to go about doing it? Danny Burmawi: I believe that politicians are you know, they say that politicians are the smartest, then philosophers, then it's like so Richard Landes: Hahaha Who is they? Danny Burmawi: I don't I don't remember where I read this, but that's like the smartest people in the world are politicians. So Richard Landes: Mm-hmm. Danny Burmawi: but anyway, it's like politicians are smart, okay? And they see what's happening, but they choose their battles wisely. So they for example, this Jewish guy who was supported or endorsed by Mamdani, he went to the mosque in New York and he recited the Quran. I forgot his name. It's like, do you think that guy really likes Islam? Of course not, of course he doesn't. Richard Landes: And do you and do you think that Mamdani and his boys liked him for anything but his stupidity? Danny Burmawi: Of course not. So it's like this is politics. This is okay. I'm going I'm going to choose my battles and I'm going to situate myself in a in the place where I I will benefit greatly. I I met with many policymakers. Richard Landes: No offense, but that doesn't sound like intelligence to me. Danny Burmawi: well yeah, I'm not gonna defend this theory. It's just it's just a theory, yeah. Richard Landes: Yeah. They're practical. It may be practical, but it's certainly not it's neither principled nor very intelligent. Okay, go ahead. Right. Danny Burmawi: Yeah, I I agree with you. No no no values, no principles. But I met with policymakers and one of them actually it was interesting, he he he saw the the problem and he saw the Islamic expansion in the West on the hands of the useful idiots. But he said and I'm not I'm not making this up. I was in his office in the Congress and he told me, you know, in my district Islam is not a problem yet. So I don't I'm not I'm not going to get in go involved in this argument. So I was like, seriously. So it's all about your district. You don't care about the fate of the nation as a whole. Richard Landes: Right. Danny Burmawi: But since your district is not concerned with Islam yet, you're not going to even I was trying to get him to anyway so the the the thing is There are many reasons why people, even on the right in America, they choose not to address Islam or call Islam out the pr as the as the problem. they have diplomatic relationships with Islamic countries, with Islamic embassies, they have Muslim friends, they have Muslim constituents in their districts. So it comes down to many, many things. So it's not easy for anyone to make or to take that position. but we have the free sharia america caucus in the Congress. They're Richard Landes: Uh-huh. Danny Burmawi: I believe they're doing they're doing great, even though I I don't agree with the concept of that Sharia is the problem. Islam is the problem because Sharia is Islam, Islam is Sharia. But anyway, I understand the diplomatic language. It's okay. Free Sharia America Kakas. So I stand behind it. Richard Landes: Yeah. I mean, you approach the problem as you can. We approach it in talking about infidel, which doesn't please a lot of people. A lot of people are turned off by that. Danny Burmawi: I know, I know. Even though this is a Quranic term describing all non Muslims, you did Richard Landes: Right. Right. Danny Burmawi: not create it, but still I again the American Richard Landes: It's disturbing. Danny Burmawi: tolerance is the problem. Richard Landes: Right, and but but if I understand you're saying it's a cowardly tolerance. It's it's because they don't want to push back. Who needs who needs to push back against a community that can make you pay a serious price if you do push back? Danny Burmawi: Yeah, and it is it is the conflating of Islam and Muslims. It's like we need we need to fix this. I can I I can that I believe Muslims are the problem because whenever someone criticized Islam, they killed that person. So they made the world believe that if you criticize Islam, therefore you are criticizing Muslims, because that is the only it's like the only thing that makes sense. Like if I criticize Judaism, for example, you're not gonna kill me because you are separate from Judaism. Judaism is an is the faith, is the idea you are embracing, you belong to, but it's not you as a person, you're not living in that bubble. Now, if you make your ideology your identity, then the moment your ideology is criticized, your identity collapses. So that is that is actually a saying by the great George Carlin. And I agree one hundred percent. I believe that when you worship your ideology, it is everything that defines you, then you cannot separate yourself from it. Richard Landes: Okay, so let me ask you this. you let's say you find somebody who listens to you, recognizes what you're saying, realizes that Islam, particularly, I would say, supremacist Islam is the problem, n understands that there's going to be pushback. How what's the best way to deal with the pushback? Cause right now it seems to me people don't want to move because they don't want the pushback. Do we have any examples of people who are openly pushing back and successfully pushing back? Danny Burmawi: So listen, Richard, it is this time that is going to define everything that comes next. So either you establish that law in the West must be uphold and respected, and freedom of speech must be practiced, or you make it dormant. You halt it and you make that the norm. Richard Landes: So you're actually Danny Burmawi: So Richard Landes: imposing blasphemy laws on yourself. You're imposing Muslim b blasphemy. Right. Danny Burmawi: Yeah, smuggling, smuggling smuggling blasphemy laws under different banners. That's what Muslims have been doing for the past twenty years. They were trying to smuggle blasphemy laws under different labels, respect, pluralism, whatever. You need to practice your freedom of Richard Landes: Avoiding Islamophobia. Danny Burmawi: speech because the problem with Islam is that if you accommodate Islam They don't see it as accommodation. They don't see it as something to thank you for. They see it as a right that was snatched out from your hands. And it becomes the norm. You cannot change it later. Richard Landes: And you become and you become in the eyes of the supremacist Muslim a dhimmi. Danny Burmawi: You become a demi. You're yeah, of course. You are already a a a revolted demi before you submit. Once you submit, yeah, you're good. We'll let you live. but this is important. It's like public praying, for example. Muslims pray in public not because they're worshiping Allah, but because they are signaling to the society that we are taking over. We exist, this is our land. Richard Landes: They're claiming territory, right? Danny Burmawi: So you see it as you are allowing them to pray at at the time square. Richard Landes: Right. Right. Danny Burmawi: They don't see it that way. They see it, Richard Landes: Right. Danny Burmawi: we have already conquired this piece of land, this public square. And Richard Landes: Right. Right. Right. Danny Burmawi: if you try to push back after you have allowed it, if you say Richard Landes: Right. Danny Burmawi: no, you're not allowed to pray here, they will start chanting Islamophobia, oppression, and all of these things. Richard Landes: Right, right. Danny Burmawi: So you need to stop it before it happens. Richard Landes: Right. We call that sharing your lunch with a polar bear. Danny Burmawi: Yeah yeah because you you think you think it's gonna be safe. Richard Landes: Right. Y you offer happier sandwich and he eats your arm. All right, so I'm still looking for where where should we be putting our energy in terms of pushing back? Danny Burmawi: Islam, as we discussed before, cannot stand scrutiny and examination. So when people start examining Islam, is examining their theological assumptions and claims publicly without fear of offending Muslims, Islam is gonna retreat. That is what I believe. And it helps Muslims Richard Landes: Well right. Danny Burmawi: too, because Muslims Muslims they are afraid of Allah. And if you are afraid of Allah too, or afraid of Allah by proxy of being afraid of Muslims, Richard Landes: Right. Danny Burmawi: then you are affirming to Muslims that Allah must be feared. And you're not helping Muslims to get out of this death cult. If you start examining Islam, if you start criticizing Islam without being afraid of offending Muslims, you are helping Muslims to see that. You can criticize this Allah with no problem. Because Muslims don't believe that. They believe that Allah is going to crush them, He's going to send calamities their way if someone is criticizing them. Many people are still waiting for me to get a heart attack or to be crippled or whatever. Yeah, because because Richard Landes: Struck by lightning. Right. Danny Burmawi: I I dare to criticize Allah. But some people, when they see that I I am actually attacking Allah, they learn from me. So that's how I lift Islam because someone, some infidel, he decided not to respect me. He didn't care about me. So he said, okay, I'm I'm talking about Islam. So he offended Islam and he didn't care that I would be offended. So that is how I got to s to listen to him speaking about things that I haven't I wasn't paying attention to before. So you help Muslims. If you love Muslims, criticize Islam. That's that's my message. Richard Landes: Yeah, I I just personally I would prefer say criticize Islam and criticize supremacism rather than criticize Allah since Okay. No, no, okay, Danny Burmawi: You call it whatever you want, Richard. I call it Islam. Richard Landes: you can call it Islam. I mean you you you know the expression supremacist Islam is a tautology. You don't need the adjective because it Yeah. Danny Burmawi: Yeah, I and and it's right, it's right. Supremacist Islam exists and that is normal Islam. But yeah, it's Richard Landes: Is that is normalist. All right, all right. I I gotta say Danny Burmawi: Okay, thank you, Richard. Richard Landes: I look forward to further conversations with you on these matters. Thank you very much. Okay. Danny Burmawi: Same same here. Thank you so much. Have a good day.