Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #011 Jason Flom with Sedrick Courtney

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#011 Jason Flom with Sedrick Courtney · Wrongful Conviction

0:05
Speaker 1: With the police banging on the door, open up.
0:10
Speaker 2: The choice to be in that lineup was the last
0:12
Speaker 2: choice I made as a free man.
0:14
Speaker 3: A year later, I ended up writing the system.
0:18
Speaker 2: I'm going to be one of those people who everyone
0:20
Speaker 2: in the world is going to think as a monster
0:21
Speaker 2: or suspect as a monster for the rest of my life,
0:24
Speaker 2: and I'm just going to have to come to peace
0:25
Speaker 2: with that. Somebody was able to look at my picture
0:29
Speaker 2: in the database and say that I was somewhere where
0:32
Speaker 2: I definitely wasn't.
0:34
Speaker 4: I overheard three of the jailers discussing what part they
0:37
Speaker 4: might have to play in my hanging.
0:39
Speaker 3: They had been told that.
0:40
Speaker 4: Two prison officers would have to participate in my execution.
0:45
Speaker 3: Now I walked back inside that prison for the last time. Man,
0:48
Speaker 3: all help broke loose.
0:49
Speaker 5: But this is Wrongful Conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction
1:13
Speaker 5: with Jason Flamm. Today we have a very special Valentine's
1:17
Speaker 5: Day edition featuring two extraordinary people, Cedric Courtney and his
1:22
Speaker 5: beautiful wife, Tina.
1:23
Speaker 1: Cedric Tina, Welcome to the show. Thank you, Thank you so.
1:27
Speaker 5: Cedric and Tina have a very unusual and beautiful love story,
1:32
Speaker 5: which is that they met in prison, and as you're
1:34
Speaker 5: probably now spitting out your coffee listening to this, I
1:37
Speaker 5: can tell you that Cedric was wrongfully convicted of armed
1:41
Speaker 5: robbery and he was incarcerated in Oklahoma and met Tina
1:45
Speaker 5: when she was working in the prison as a guard.
1:48
Speaker 6: Cedric Courtney was exonerated after he had already served his
1:52
Speaker 6: time in prison fifteen years. He sued Tulsa Police o
1:55
Speaker 6: for testimony given by a lab technician that helped to
1:57
Speaker 6: convict him a DNA test. The evidence much later showed
2:01
Speaker 6: it was not connected to Courtney.
2:03
Speaker 7: Today, DNA is the gold standard for prosecutors and defense attorneys.
2:07
Speaker 5: The lack of it helped Courtney's attorneys get his conviction
2:10
Speaker 5: set aside. It's a great thing to see now they
2:13
Speaker 5: have a family. But I want to go back to
2:16
Speaker 5: sort of the beginning, Cedric, where were you from?
2:18
Speaker 1: Originally?
2:19
Speaker 3: I'm really from Tosa, Oklahoma, and Tina.
2:21
Speaker 1: How about you?
2:22
Speaker 7: We'ren and raised in the same place, dunk And, Oklahoma.
2:25
Speaker 5: So you start off there and you grew up. Did
2:27
Speaker 5: you have a happy childhood?
2:29
Speaker 1: Cedric?
2:30
Speaker 3: For most part? Yes, and you.
2:31
Speaker 1: Too, yes? Nice?
2:32
Speaker 5: So everything was going pretty good, I guess, I mean,
2:37
Speaker 5: you know, life's not easy, and I know your life
2:39
Speaker 5: wasn't easy, Cedric, But then things took a really terrible
2:44
Speaker 5: turn back in nineteen ninety five, and to paint a picture,
2:48
Speaker 5: on April sixth, nineteen ninety five, what happened was two
2:51
Speaker 5: men with pistols and wearing ski masks kicked in the
2:53
Speaker 5: door of an apartment of a woman named Shmida Greer
2:56
Speaker 5: and they forced heart of the floor, pistol whipped her
2:58
Speaker 5: and duct taped her eyes and mouth, and during the robbery,
3:01
Speaker 5: which lasted less than ten minutes, they kicked her in
3:04
Speaker 5: the head and she played dead and they left with
3:06
Speaker 5: three hundred and ninety seven dollars in cash, four tires,
3:09
Speaker 5: and four wheel rims.
3:10
Speaker 3: Right.
3:11
Speaker 5: She then went on to mistakenly identify you. And we
3:15
Speaker 5: see mistaken I with its identification all the time. It's
3:18
Speaker 5: the number one leading cause of wrongful convictions. But in
3:20
Speaker 5: this case it was unusual because you actually knew her
3:24
Speaker 5: and she thought it was you for reasons that still
3:26
Speaker 5: nobody understands. Right, So how did this happen? I mean
3:30
Speaker 5: you had an alibi?
3:32
Speaker 1: Right?
3:32
Speaker 4: Well, they also said in the trial that the person
3:35
Speaker 4: who does the lab work, girl Cox, Carol Cox is
3:39
Speaker 4: the one who does the DNA testing, and she came
3:41
Speaker 4: back and said it was inconclusive that the matching red
3:44
Speaker 4: hair did not match his red hair, which, as you
3:49
Speaker 4: cannot see him, he is African American, he definitely does
3:52
Speaker 4: not have red hair. He is black headed. And so
3:54
Speaker 4: they have found out, now all these years later, that
3:57
Speaker 4: she falsified evidence.
3:59
Speaker 5: Yeah, and when you say that, it's so strange, and
4:02
Speaker 5: just to paint a picture for you, Cedric is a
4:05
Speaker 5: very handsome African American man with a beard and black hair,
4:09
Speaker 5: and so it's so bizarre that there would be anything
4:11
Speaker 5: to do with any red hair.
4:12
Speaker 1: It just doesn't make any sense.
4:14
Speaker 5: Every week we have another case, and every one of
4:16
Speaker 5: them is crazy because you sit there and go, how
4:19
Speaker 5: could this happen? But in this case it takes another
4:23
Speaker 5: level of disbelief, almost or suspending this belief because you say, okay,
4:28
Speaker 5: so she said that she identified you because one of
4:32
Speaker 5: the two guys pulled up his mask a little bit,
4:35
Speaker 5: and so maybe she saw the chin or something of
4:37
Speaker 5: the guy. And then also she claimed to be able
4:40
Speaker 5: to identify your hands, which is nuts. I mean, is
4:44
Speaker 5: there anything particularly I mean, I'm looking at your hands
4:47
Speaker 5: and you could be a hand model.
4:48
Speaker 1: It's a regular hands.
4:50
Speaker 5: There's nothing particularly unique or identifying, no scars, you're not
4:54
Speaker 5: missing a finger, right, So how would somebody possibly be able?
4:58
Speaker 5: And again we know that in times of stress, extreme stress,
5:03
Speaker 5: people are even less likely to be able to identify
5:07
Speaker 5: someone even if they see their whole face, because the
5:09
Speaker 5: brain does not work like a tape recorder, even though
5:12
Speaker 5: a lot of people think that it does. Must have
5:15
Speaker 5: been very convincing a trial when you have a victim
5:17
Speaker 5: who says I recognized him, I knew the guy. You
5:20
Speaker 5: had her testifying that she knew you and could identify you,
5:24
Speaker 5: and then you had this forensic analyst lying yes, basically
5:27
Speaker 5: just lying. But let's not sugarcoat it.
5:30
Speaker 4: She completely lied and has been proven that she has
5:32
Speaker 4: lied on other cases as well, and has gotten in
5:34
Speaker 4: no trouble whatsoever for falsifying evidence.
5:37
Speaker 5: Which never ceases to amaze me, Tina, I mean how
5:41
Speaker 5: And this is.
5:41
Speaker 4: Also an odd case because once I found him completely innocent, obviously,
5:46
Speaker 4: all the lawsuits and everything I went through, most cases
5:49
Speaker 4: and most situations in most states, they say, Okay, now
5:52
Speaker 4: we have the DNA, We're going to run it through
5:54
Speaker 4: the data bank.
5:55
Speaker 7: We want to know who actually did this.
5:57
Speaker 4: They won't run it, so they're not actually out to
6:02
Speaker 4: catch who really did this. Say their evidence say this
6:05
Speaker 4: person has committed another crime and their DNA is in
6:08
Speaker 4: the DNA data bank Oklahoma. Won't run it to find
6:12
Speaker 4: out who really robbed this person. So there's no intention
6:16
Speaker 4: on catching who really did it. It's just at the
6:18
Speaker 4: time they wanted a conviction.
6:19
Speaker 5: They want to save the case. Yes, and justice be damned, Cedric.
6:23
Speaker 5: Let's go back to you. So all of a sudden,
6:26
Speaker 5: you find yourself in sort of like a vortex like this,
6:29
Speaker 5: everything's going crazy. Actually, your alibi, let's talk about that,
6:33
Speaker 5: because you had a very very strong alibi.
6:36
Speaker 1: Right, where were you on the day of the crime,
6:38
Speaker 1: at the time.
6:39
Speaker 2: Of the crime, the morning of the crime, island and
6:41
Speaker 2: put flowers on my mother's grave. And after that, I
6:44
Speaker 2: went to the unemployment office. Was there like three or
6:48
Speaker 2: four hour was filling out paperwork for unemployment.
6:51
Speaker 5: So there were multiple people who saw you because you
6:55
Speaker 5: didn't go to your mother's grave alone, right, you went
6:58
Speaker 5: with family members and then you were at the unemployment office.
7:01
Speaker 5: It's not like your alibi was I was out walking
7:04
Speaker 5: in the park by myself all day, which would be okay,
7:07
Speaker 5: well that doesn't really work, you know, I mean, and
7:09
Speaker 5: that could be an ALBI. But you were at the
7:11
Speaker 5: uneployment office where dozens of people saw you.
7:15
Speaker 2: I signed in and I even received two chicks, but
7:19
Speaker 2: nobody could find traces of my paperwork. So when I
7:22
Speaker 2: got out, I went to the building and it was
7:25
Speaker 2: closed down. So I called the unemployment office head office,
7:29
Speaker 2: and they said after ten years they destroyed their records,
7:33
Speaker 2: so they had no record of me receiving or even
7:37
Speaker 2: being in there that day.
7:38
Speaker 1: But this is when you were appealing, right, this is.
7:41
Speaker 3: When I was home.
7:41
Speaker 4: I just wanted to know. But I mean, at the
7:45
Speaker 4: time of the trial though they had no they couldn't
7:47
Speaker 4: find the evidence that he was there. Everything was just
7:50
Speaker 4: stacking against him.
7:52
Speaker 5: I'm assuming because you weren't a wealthy guy. You were
7:55
Speaker 5: represented by a public defender.
7:57
Speaker 3: No, I retained an attorney.
8:00
Speaker 1: He did, and was he competent?
8:02
Speaker 4: Was it he or she was a family attorney, and
8:05
Speaker 4: family attorney had never done criminal law, criminal felony.
8:10
Speaker 3: He had never done any of that.
8:12
Speaker 5: So here's another typical situation that we find in wrongful convictions,
8:16
Speaker 5: which is that you have an attorney who is a
8:19
Speaker 5: nice way to put it, would be underqualified and vastly overmatched,
8:24
Speaker 5: because you're up there, you've got a witness testifying that
8:27
Speaker 5: she knows you and can identify you and pointing at
8:29
Speaker 5: you in the court really as soon, and then you've
8:31
Speaker 5: got a forensic analyst who's probably talking about her fancy
8:35
Speaker 5: degrees that she's gotten all this stuff right, and the
8:38
Speaker 5: jury would be sitting there going obviously the guy did it?
8:41
Speaker 5: What can you say? Do you recall did he do
8:43
Speaker 5: any work? Did he go to the unemployment office? Did
8:46
Speaker 5: he interview people? Did he did he interview the witness
8:49
Speaker 5: the victim?
8:49
Speaker 2: I mean he interviewed the victim. I don't think he
8:52
Speaker 2: went to the unemployment office. If he did, he was
8:54
Speaker 2: turned down for some reason. My family went to the
8:58
Speaker 2: unemployment office, they would turn down. They wouldn't don't get
9:00
Speaker 2: any paperwork.
9:02
Speaker 5: That's bizarre, Like why wouldn't they allow them to have
9:05
Speaker 5: your paperwork?
9:05
Speaker 1: Were you bailed out? Were you held in jail?
9:07
Speaker 3: Funding the trial held in pitting trail.
9:09
Speaker 1: The bail, I'm assuming it was pretty high because it
9:11
Speaker 1: was a violent crime.
9:12
Speaker 3: Like one hundred and twenty thousand.
9:14
Speaker 5: Right, and your family wasn't a wealthy family, you had
9:16
Speaker 5: no ability to post that bail. So yeah, so you
9:18
Speaker 5: otherwise you could have gone down there yourself. I'm probably reckoning.
9:21
Speaker 5: People were recognizing you said, oh yeah, there's a guy
9:23
Speaker 5: who was Yeah. So that's another big drawback, and we
9:25
Speaker 5: see that again and again where your ability to defend
9:28
Speaker 5: yourself is really badly.
9:30
Speaker 1: Hampered when you're stuck.
9:33
Speaker 5: In jail, not only because of things like that, but
9:36
Speaker 5: also because it's much more difficult for your lawyer to
9:38
Speaker 5: visit you. And many people don't even get a visit
9:40
Speaker 5: from their lawyer when in jail. They have to go
9:41
Speaker 5: through the whole process, they have to go to the jail,
9:43
Speaker 5: they have to sign in. They don't make it easy
9:45
Speaker 5: for people to visit. I know from going to jails myself.
9:48
Speaker 5: So yeah, the odds were totally stacked against you. You
9:51
Speaker 5: didn't have a snowball chance in hell in this situation.
9:54
Speaker 5: So let's go to the trial. First of all, there
9:57
Speaker 5: were two assailants, but they only caught one, not the
10:00
Speaker 5: wrong one. So in fact we know that they never
10:03
Speaker 5: caught anybody career that was you know, and that these
10:06
Speaker 5: guys who were very scary guys are still out there,
10:09
Speaker 5: probably victimizing other people. I mean, it's logical. It's not
10:13
Speaker 5: the type of crime as like an isolated incident. If
10:15
Speaker 5: you're doing that, that's probably way you're making your living.
10:18
Speaker 5: So who knows how many other victims fell prey because
10:20
Speaker 5: of the fact that, unfortunately the authorities didn't do their
10:23
Speaker 5: job correctly.
10:24
Speaker 1: And again that's being polite.
10:26
Speaker 5: So your go to trial and the arguments are made,
10:30
Speaker 5: jury goes out, how long are they.
10:32
Speaker 3: Delivered for not Lome?
10:34
Speaker 1: It wasn't long, open and shut case as far as
10:36
Speaker 1: they were concerned.
10:37
Speaker 5: Yeah, and they come back in. Did you think that
10:39
Speaker 5: they were going to find you guilty?
10:41
Speaker 2: I thought I was going home, I asked my attorney,
10:43
Speaker 2: So what do you think you said, we got a
10:45
Speaker 2: fifty to fifty chance. After that, I figured it I
10:48
Speaker 2: wouldn't going home.
10:49
Speaker 5: I can't imagine the pressure of what that's like. I mean,
10:54
Speaker 5: I've only been in a civil trial myself, and even
10:57
Speaker 5: that's like when you're waiting for the jury verdict and
10:59
Speaker 5: all this is take his money in that case, right,
11:01
Speaker 5: not freedom, not your life. You're facing two thirty year
11:05
Speaker 5: sentences here. I don't understand how you could even like
11:09
Speaker 5: not collapse. In a situation like that, you have to
11:11
Speaker 5: be a strong person.
11:12
Speaker 7: And I've ever been in that situation before. How would
11:15
Speaker 7: you know?
11:15
Speaker 4: And especially back then that was say, twenty years ago.
11:18
Speaker 4: It's not like you could just get on Google and
11:20
Speaker 4: all of a sudden start researching best attorneys. That's that
11:24
Speaker 4: they just had to go by what they knew, what attorney,
11:26
Speaker 4: they knew, what family friend for this person, which they
11:29
Speaker 4: should have at that time. You know, looking back, probably
11:31
Speaker 4: should have just went with a public defender, somebody that
11:34
Speaker 4: had any idea.
11:35
Speaker 5: You know that there were no good answers here, right
11:37
Speaker 5: the public defenders.
11:39
Speaker 1: The odds were stacked against them.
11:40
Speaker 5: If I could just wave a magic wand I would
11:44
Speaker 5: put a law in that you have to be represented
11:45
Speaker 5: by a criminal defense lawyer, that would seem logical to me.
11:48
Speaker 5: If you have to go get surgery on your heart,
11:50
Speaker 5: they don't say, well, we don't have a guy available
11:52
Speaker 5: for that, but we do have a pediatrist, right, but
11:57
Speaker 5: you know we haven't. That doesn't This is the only
12:02
Speaker 5: profession where that kind of stuff goes on. There's a
12:05
Speaker 5: lot of things that are unique about the legal profession
12:07
Speaker 5: in this country, but the system is not designed right.
12:09
Speaker 5: It's literally life or death in many cases, and your
12:12
Speaker 5: case is not far from it. You know, it wasn't
12:15
Speaker 5: a murder, and you weren't facing the death penalty. But
12:18
Speaker 5: even in death penalty cases we see crazy things go on.
12:20
Speaker 5: But in your case, they were literally playing with your life.
12:37
Speaker 5: The stakes were total because you're facing two thirty years sentence.
12:40
Speaker 5: So the jury comes back in and can you paint
12:44
Speaker 5: a picture like what was the site? Sound smells with
12:46
Speaker 5: the courtorn fold? Was your family there?
12:49
Speaker 2: The quote womb was full, My family was there. They
12:52
Speaker 2: came back and read a verdict. I drop my head
12:55
Speaker 2: and I heard my family screaming, Yes, that's all I
12:58
Speaker 2: can remember.
12:59
Speaker 5: I can't nobody, as I think Tina was saying, nobody
13:03
Speaker 5: that hasn't been there could ever imagine what that's like.
13:05
Speaker 5: And then they take you away and now you're sentenced
13:08
Speaker 5: to two thirty year terms.
13:10
Speaker 3: Correct.
13:11
Speaker 1: What prison were you sent to? Was the maximum security.
13:15
Speaker 2: Cotton County Jail is where they sent me because the
13:18
Speaker 2: prisons were so full and they would rent out small
13:20
Speaker 2: jails for doc inmates. Actually, the place where I started
13:24
Speaker 2: at is where I actually went home from.
13:27
Speaker 7: Just four hours away from where I live now. Yeah,
13:31
Speaker 7: the crime.
13:31
Speaker 5: Happened, So you get sent to this jail, and people,
13:36
Speaker 5: I think a lot of people think that jails are
13:38
Speaker 5: more benign than prisons, but a lot of them are
13:40
Speaker 5: extremely dangerous. And they also lack the facilities that prisons have, right,
13:46
Speaker 5: because they're only just designed to basically warehouse people. There's
13:50
Speaker 5: no there's no I mean a lot of jails you
13:51
Speaker 5: don't get to go outside. There's no recreation of any sort,
13:55
Speaker 5: even the most rudimentary. So you were there, and then
13:58
Speaker 5: eventually you got transferred.
14:00
Speaker 2: To Granted, which is a high, medium security facility.
14:06
Speaker 5: During this time, you were seeking appeals, you were trying
14:10
Speaker 5: to find evidence that would exonerate you. Right, how did
14:12
Speaker 5: that process take shape? And then we're going to get
14:15
Speaker 5: to what I really want to talk about, how you
14:17
Speaker 5: met Tina and how this beautiful love story started. But first,
14:21
Speaker 5: how did this thing start to turn your way? Unlike
14:24
Speaker 5: most of the people we've had on the show, you
14:26
Speaker 5: were not able to prove your innocence while you were
14:28
Speaker 5: in prison because they claimed to have lost the evidence, right,
14:32
Speaker 5: which we now know that was not the case. They
14:34
Speaker 5: just really weren't looking for it. But okay, let's leave
14:37
Speaker 5: that alone. For a second. You ended up serving how
14:39
Speaker 5: much time?
14:40
Speaker 2: I did eight on the first thirty in parole to
14:43
Speaker 2: the second one did eight on the second thirty in
14:44
Speaker 2: parode Home.
14:45
Speaker 4: He contacted the Innocence Project back in nineteen ninety six,
14:49
Speaker 4: and they had contacted Tulsa County, which is the county
14:51
Speaker 4: was out of and they had said they had lost
14:53
Speaker 4: his evidence.
14:54
Speaker 1: Right, so you contacted us almost immediately.
14:57
Speaker 2: I actually contacted the Oklahoma the FITST system, and they.
15:01
Speaker 3: Sent me to you guys, right.
15:03
Speaker 5: What happens when someone like yourself contacts against this project
15:07
Speaker 5: is we review the letter. We try to find out whether,
15:10
Speaker 5: as best we can, whether there's some veracity to the
15:13
Speaker 5: claim of innocence, because not everybody that writes to us
15:15
Speaker 5: is innocent.
15:16
Speaker 1: Some people just like to.
15:16
Speaker 5: Waste our time because if you're guilty, the DNA is
15:19
Speaker 5: just going to prove that you're guilty. But anyway, so
15:21
Speaker 5: we review that, and then of course our next job
15:23
Speaker 5: is to find out if there is DNA that exists
15:25
Speaker 5: in the case. And as happens, unfortunately, in about thirty
15:29
Speaker 5: two percent of the cases, we look for the evidence
15:33
Speaker 5: and we get told that it's lost or destroyed or whatever.
15:36
Speaker 5: It is, and that's what happened in your case.
15:38
Speaker 3: Yeah, first I was told it was destroyed. Then they
15:41
Speaker 3: told me it was lost.
15:42
Speaker 1: Right, so they changed their story. That's a little bit
15:44
Speaker 1: of a red flag there.
15:45
Speaker 5: You serve out your sense, but before you're finished, an
15:49
Speaker 5: interesting thing happens. Right, you're in the last year of
15:52
Speaker 5: your sentence, and you guys end up crossing paths.
15:56
Speaker 7: We did.
15:56
Speaker 5: Now Tina, if you meet her, she looks more like
15:59
Speaker 5: a pops are a movie star that a prison guard.
16:02
Speaker 5: You know, it's sort of disarming. You were working as
16:04
Speaker 5: a daycare worker and then you switch careers.
16:07
Speaker 4: Yes, because the early retirement, I could retire after twenty
16:10
Speaker 4: years and then I can do my own job. My
16:13
Speaker 4: son would have the stability at home. We have just
16:16
Speaker 4: had all the perks, a better pay and a better
16:19
Speaker 4: health plan and entrance for one ks. All of our retirement.
16:23
Speaker 4: Had everything that I needed at that time in my life.
16:26
Speaker 5: Such an interesting transition to go from taking care of
16:28
Speaker 5: little children working in a prison, right, sort of almost
16:32
Speaker 5: an opposite.
16:33
Speaker 7: I really didn't enjoy it.
16:35
Speaker 4: After you get in and you realize it's not what
16:38
Speaker 4: people tell you, you start meeting individuals and hearing their stories.
16:42
Speaker 4: And you just get a little bit more compassionate towards
16:45
Speaker 4: people and realizing everybody's story is different.
16:49
Speaker 7: They're not just a number.
16:50
Speaker 5: Let's go back to how did you meet Cedric? Which
16:54
Speaker 5: part of the prison were you in?
16:56
Speaker 7: It was a.
16:56
Speaker 4: Minimum security, was work release. He worked for the county,
17:00
Speaker 4: and my lieutenant had asked me to work late one evening,
17:03
Speaker 4: and I of course.
17:05
Speaker 7: Eager to do that.
17:06
Speaker 4: I worked late and he came in from working at
17:09
Speaker 4: that facility you could walk in walk out, and he
17:11
Speaker 4: walked in the front door, and he was dirty and
17:13
Speaker 4: him and working all day and he was really just
17:16
Speaker 4: polite and shy. I couldn't get him to talk to
17:19
Speaker 4: me at that time. He was trying to avoid me
17:21
Speaker 4: at all costs because well, you.
17:25
Speaker 1: Get in trouble that way. Yeah, well, and you're on
17:27
Speaker 1: your way out.
17:28
Speaker 4: You're not say the officers and his you know, for
17:31
Speaker 4: sixteen years, officers had not been trustworthy people, not but
17:35
Speaker 4: not trustworthy. It's just as an inmate, as an officer,
17:38
Speaker 4: you don't become friends. You keep that distance.
17:40
Speaker 5: So well, it would also have been you know, you
17:43
Speaker 5: would have lost your job or worse, had anything.
17:46
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I was not my plan in any way,
17:48
Speaker 4: shape or form to go in there and form any
17:50
Speaker 4: friendships with anyone. I still remember it, but we really
17:54
Speaker 4: didn't start talking until after that.
17:56
Speaker 2: They told me they would do everything they can to
17:58
Speaker 2: send me back to where I came from the work
18:01
Speaker 2: release and then see comes through the door.
18:03
Speaker 3: Hey, how you doing? Oh I'm fine.
18:07
Speaker 5: Wait wait when you said they told you they want
18:09
Speaker 5: to sit back we came from? What do you can
18:10
Speaker 5: you elaborate on that?
18:12
Speaker 2: The warden of the facility told me that they was
18:15
Speaker 2: gonna try to send me back to where I came from,
18:17
Speaker 2: back to high security.
18:18
Speaker 1: Why just it was just a mean, just a bit.
18:22
Speaker 5: Yeah, so you weren't trying to break any rules, as
18:24
Speaker 5: you can almost see freedom at this point in time, right,
18:27
Speaker 5: you you talked about how that was instant chemistry right
18:30
Speaker 5: for you, and what about you said, I mean.
18:31
Speaker 3: Were you trying to go home?
18:32
Speaker 5: You're just trying to go home, so you weren't even
18:34
Speaker 5: you weren't even picking up on those vibes yet. Oh wow,
18:37
Speaker 5: that's interesting. And of course you've been disconnected from you know,
18:40
Speaker 5: this this life for sixteen years at this point, right, he.
18:45
Speaker 4: Still doesn't get my hints or my flirt, so I'm
18:48
Speaker 4: used to it.
18:49
Speaker 1: Well, something could happen. You got kids, I mean, like
18:52
Speaker 1: you must have picked up on it on some point.
18:54
Speaker 5: I mean, I'm not a specialist in family planning, but
18:57
Speaker 5: it seems to me something good with Right, he.
19:00
Speaker 4: Was out smoking a cigar in the dark, and I
19:03
Speaker 4: made myself over there and told him to scoot over.
19:05
Speaker 7: I wanted to sit down and have a conversation.
19:07
Speaker 1: This is after he got out.
19:08
Speaker 7: Oh, this was daring.
19:10
Speaker 5: Wait wait wait, wait, you're smoking a cigar in the
19:12
Speaker 5: prison outside outside Oh, because you're on work release. Yes, right,
19:15
Speaker 5: so you see him and now you're on work release,
19:18
Speaker 5: which means are you out? Not really, not really, but
19:22
Speaker 5: you went up to him anyway, I did and said, what.
19:25
Speaker 4: Just try to make conversation with everybody that was sitting around,
19:29
Speaker 4: just trying to, you know, like try to learn something
19:32
Speaker 4: about him, because obviously see that he lifts weights, he's
19:36
Speaker 4: in shape, he plays basketball.
19:38
Speaker 7: He just seemed like a really friendly person.
19:40
Speaker 4: And I'm the type of person like I had never
19:43
Speaker 4: even had a speeding ticket. I had never even known
19:45
Speaker 4: anybody that had been to prison before, so this.
19:48
Speaker 1: Was all very new, and so this is out of character.
19:51
Speaker 7: Yeah, this was definitely audacuate because.
19:52
Speaker 1: You didn't know if he was innocent.
19:54
Speaker 5: You had no idea, right for all, you knew this,
19:55
Speaker 5: this is a daterous guy.
19:57
Speaker 7: And I asked him a bazillion questions.
19:59
Speaker 4: I went through chart Actually, I would ask him questions,
20:02
Speaker 4: and he was honest on everything, every single thing down
20:07
Speaker 4: to when his last visit was, who it was with,
20:10
Speaker 4: Everything was all very honest, and at that point I
20:14
Speaker 4: was I was willing to get to know him a
20:16
Speaker 4: little more.
20:17
Speaker 5: So now comes the good stuff, etc. You're released, and
20:21
Speaker 5: then how long did it take for you, guys to
20:23
Speaker 5: go on your first date?
20:24
Speaker 3: Two weeks?
20:25
Speaker 4: He called me immediately as soon as he was released,
20:28
Speaker 4: he called me immediately and it was yes, it was
20:30
Speaker 4: that weekend, and.
20:31
Speaker 1: Was it was? It was just like it just clicked.
20:34
Speaker 7: Like that or yeah, yeah, so definitely amazing.
20:38
Speaker 1: That's so great.
20:52
Speaker 5: And then a romance bloomed and you start dating and
20:56
Speaker 5: then almost like you're his lucky charm or guardian need,
21:00
Speaker 5: whatever the hell it might be. Right, then things get
21:03
Speaker 5: more interesting again because in an amazing twist of fate,
21:07
Speaker 5: it was a student, right, a law student correct, who
21:11
Speaker 5: was working at the Innocence Project, who decided for reasons
21:16
Speaker 5: we can't even speculate on one day to just call
21:19
Speaker 5: the Tulsa Police Department again. What we'd already been shut
21:23
Speaker 5: down several times on trying to find the evidence. Because
21:25
Speaker 5: now you're out, but you still got a very tough
21:28
Speaker 5: road ahead as a guy with a record a FELA
21:31
Speaker 5: work experience last sixteen years, nothing tough to put that
21:35
Speaker 5: on your resumes. So this law student, who emerges as
21:39
Speaker 5: a real hero in this story, right, decides to knock
21:43
Speaker 5: on the door one more time, which would seem crazy, like,
21:45
Speaker 5: why goes You've already been told it's gone.
21:48
Speaker 1: They told us it's lost, they told us it's destroyed.
21:51
Speaker 5: But this kid, Chris the law student, if you're out there,
21:54
Speaker 5: Chris the law student. So he calls up and lo
21:57
Speaker 5: and behold, the evidence is.
21:59
Speaker 3: Found in Texas.
22:01
Speaker 1: In Texas? What the fuck was it doing in Texas?
22:04
Speaker 3: Nobody has any idea.
22:05
Speaker 5: How did they find it in Texas? That's a miracle. Okay,
22:09
Speaker 5: So somebody steers them in the right direction. Somehow the
22:12
Speaker 5: dots connect, the evidence gets found, the evidence gets tested,
22:17
Speaker 5: and how did you find out the results?
22:19
Speaker 1: Who called you? You must have freaked out?
22:22
Speaker 2: Well, I was at work and I was on parole
22:24
Speaker 2: leg monitor for six months and my parole officer called
22:27
Speaker 2: and said, some people from New York wants your phone number.
22:29
Speaker 3: Can I give it to him? She said? They said
22:30
Speaker 3: they from the Innocence Project. I said, will you please
22:33
Speaker 3: give it to him?
22:34
Speaker 2: So Chris called me and told me that he was
22:37
Speaker 2: the last one and if he wouldn't have found it,
22:39
Speaker 2: I'd probably be lost.
22:42
Speaker 1: So what was your reaction when you heard the news?
22:46
Speaker 2: I was about astonished as I was that I went
22:49
Speaker 2: to prison, DNA tested.
22:51
Speaker 5: Let's go and then how long did it take for
22:54
Speaker 5: them to test it and came back to you.
22:56
Speaker 1: With the results?
22:57
Speaker 3: Not long? Not long?
22:58
Speaker 5: A couple of weeks, A couple week and they came
23:01
Speaker 5: back And then this is the moment I really want
23:03
Speaker 5: to get into. So when you got the call, did
23:05
Speaker 5: Chris call you again? Yes, so Chris talk about a
23:08
Speaker 5: guardian angel. So Chris calls you. Where were you? Were
23:11
Speaker 5: you at work?
23:12
Speaker 1: Were you at home?
23:13
Speaker 3: I think I was at work.
23:14
Speaker 7: He was at work because I was at work. I
23:15
Speaker 7: was driving. I can remember the phone.
23:17
Speaker 5: Call because you probably got the first phone call after
23:19
Speaker 5: he got the.
23:20
Speaker 7: Phone call to me, and he's like, okay, well, I
23:21
Speaker 7: need to tell you something.
23:22
Speaker 4: I was actually innocent and they have my evidence, and
23:26
Speaker 4: he just kind of finally went into the story.
23:28
Speaker 7: I never asked, really, did.
23:31
Speaker 1: You break down? Did you jump for joy? Like? Did
23:33
Speaker 1: you just kind of just keep it moving? What was
23:35
Speaker 1: your reaction?
23:36
Speaker 3: Can't it moving like I did when I went to prison.
23:38
Speaker 1: I don't know what you were like before.
23:39
Speaker 5: I didn't tell you back then, but it almost seems
23:41
Speaker 5: like this experience sort of made you have a very
23:44
Speaker 5: almost by necessity, have a very even tempered approach to life,
23:48
Speaker 5: Like you're not prone to highs and lows like it
23:52
Speaker 5: might have been. I think prison can take that out
23:53
Speaker 5: of you sometimes too. For people to survive, they find
23:57
Speaker 5: they have to not react to situations the way people
24:00
Speaker 5: do on the outside. And that's one thing I pick
24:02
Speaker 5: up from hanging around and being with guys like yourself,
24:05
Speaker 5: is you know, you really learn to process information differently.
24:11
Speaker 1: And then not let the little things in life get
24:14
Speaker 1: to you.
24:14
Speaker 5: And I try to take that aproadly because I mean,
24:16
Speaker 5: if someone like you can go through what you've been
24:19
Speaker 5: through and then sit here and be calm and be
24:22
Speaker 5: positive and be moving on with your life, then what
24:25
Speaker 5: right does do we on the outside who haven't been
24:28
Speaker 5: through anything like this have to react or overreact to
24:31
Speaker 5: situations that are just everyday situation.
24:33
Speaker 1: I appreciate that.
24:33
Speaker 5: And it's one of the things I always get gratitude
24:35
Speaker 5: in my attitude from being around you and the other
24:39
Speaker 5: ax hoonaies. So I appreciate that. So you called Tina,
24:42
Speaker 5: What was your reaction.
24:44
Speaker 4: I was a static. I wanted to call my mother.
24:48
Speaker 4: Did you Yes, I did.
24:50
Speaker 7: She was excited.
24:51
Speaker 4: She didn't know either that he was. It didn't matter
24:55
Speaker 4: if he was in a center, if he was guilty.
24:57
Speaker 4: It was just at that point I was in love
24:59
Speaker 4: with him for you know, I was just love with them.
25:02
Speaker 4: It was the first straight and it was amazing. I
25:03
Speaker 4: was like, oh my, he's going to get his name cleared.
25:06
Speaker 3: I was.
25:06
Speaker 7: I was really excited, and I was on the road.
25:08
Speaker 7: I was on the ball.
25:09
Speaker 4: I was like, let's get this thing going. I want
25:11
Speaker 4: to meet everybody and talk to everybody and let's find out.
25:13
Speaker 7: I mean I was. I had as much information.
25:15
Speaker 4: I had PaperWorks and PaperWorks of just looking up his history,
25:20
Speaker 4: like things that had happened during the trial, as much
25:23
Speaker 4: information on present people that had just gotten out on
25:27
Speaker 4: wrongful convictions, you know what to expect.
25:31
Speaker 7: I was trying to just do as much research as
25:33
Speaker 7: possible on.
25:34
Speaker 5: So it was mitochondrial DNA testing, which is the field
25:38
Speaker 5: that applies to hair, that solved this right, and that
25:41
Speaker 5: put things back in the right light and proved what
25:44
Speaker 5: you had been saying all along, which was that he
25:47
Speaker 5: was actually innocent. I'm sure working in the prison you
25:49
Speaker 5: heard a lot of people's stories that they were innocent,
25:51
Speaker 5: and some are and some aren't. Yeah, And that's interesting too,
25:54
Speaker 5: because we talked about how this forensic analyst falsely testified
25:59
Speaker 5: about the connection with the hairs to you, which of
26:03
Speaker 5: course sounds ridiculous when you talk about red hairs, but
26:06
Speaker 5: it happened, and it led to a very tragic outcome.
26:10
Speaker 5: And it's interesting because a study was conducted recently and.
26:15
Speaker 1: The reports were published widely.
26:17
Speaker 5: They studied hundreds of cases in which FBI analysts had
26:22
Speaker 5: testified on the basis of hair analysis, and they found
26:24
Speaker 5: that in ninety six percent of those cases they had
26:27
Speaker 5: lied or been mistaken. And what's really terrifying is that
26:32
Speaker 5: in every one of those cases they were mistaken in
26:35
Speaker 5: favor of the prosecution. And I say mistaken, I mean
26:39
Speaker 5: we don't know whether they were lying or they were mistaken.
26:42
Speaker 5: And that evidence is so powerful, and I hope that
26:44
Speaker 5: people are out there listening. When you serve on a jury,
26:47
Speaker 5: if you end up on a criminal trial. Many people
26:49
Speaker 5: may not end up on a criminal trials long as
26:50
Speaker 5: they live, but some people will. And it's easy to
26:53
Speaker 5: fall for that, right when you have somebody basically almost
26:56
Speaker 5: coming up in a lab coat, like, I'm a scientist.
26:59
Speaker 1: You know, I went to this university, I went to
27:01
Speaker 1: that university.
27:01
Speaker 8: I was credited by it. And they sit there and go,
27:04
Speaker 8: oh my god, you know, like, but they make mistakes.
27:08
Speaker 8: Everybody makes mistakes. Doctors make mistakes, scientists make mistakes. People
27:12
Speaker 8: make mistakes.
27:13
Speaker 5: The fact is you have to really dig deeper and
27:17
Speaker 5: not just take a sort of an incurious approach. You
27:21
Speaker 5: have to be aware somebody's life is at stake. Your
27:26
Speaker 5: life was at stake. They were saying something that seemed ridiculous,
27:30
Speaker 5: but they were saying it with authority and with certainty.
27:33
Speaker 5: And they came with this scientific background and people jurors
27:37
Speaker 5: who meant well, and nobody none of those jurors went
27:40
Speaker 5: on the jury hoping to convict an innocent guy I'm
27:43
Speaker 5: sure they must feel terrible if they know. I believe
27:45
Speaker 5: that people when they serve on a jury, they're looking
27:47
Speaker 5: for the truth. They want to help solve a crime,
27:49
Speaker 5: they want to help society. Nobody goes in there thinking, oh, great,
27:52
Speaker 5: today I'm gonna get a chance to convict an innocent
27:54
Speaker 5: guy or a woman.
27:55
Speaker 4: You have, I don't want to go home feeling guilty
27:57
Speaker 4: that they made the wrong decision either.
27:59
Speaker 1: Oh. I mean, that would be a terrible responsibility to
28:02
Speaker 1: have to live with. But it happens that.
28:03
Speaker 5: One of the things that this show highlights is that
28:06
Speaker 5: it happens much more frequently than people realize, and you
28:09
Speaker 5: have to be aware, and everyone has to do their
28:11
Speaker 5: part and be strong in your conviction. You know, there's
28:14
Speaker 5: so many cases we've seen where there's a jury room,
28:16
Speaker 5: it's ten to two or it's eleven to one, and
28:18
Speaker 5: finally the pressure bills and somebody's like, I got to
28:21
Speaker 5: go home too. I mean, I can't sit here any longer.
28:23
Speaker 5: And you're holding somebody's life in your hands. You got
28:26
Speaker 5: to dig deep, you got to look for the truth.
28:28
Speaker 5: The good news is they found the DNA, You're proven innocent.
28:32
Speaker 5: It was sort of a miracle that DNA magically went
28:35
Speaker 5: from Oklahoma to Texas. So now you are in a
28:38
Speaker 5: position to sue the state, but they ended up settling
28:41
Speaker 5: with you.
28:42
Speaker 1: Is that right?
28:42
Speaker 4: Yes, and then turns around and suit him for one
28:44
Speaker 4: hundred thousand dollars for back child support.
28:47
Speaker 3: No one knowing the case and knowing I was innocent.
28:50
Speaker 5: So they felt that you should have been paying child
28:52
Speaker 5: support while you were in prison making whatever it is,
28:54
Speaker 5: sixteen cents an hour.
28:56
Speaker 7: It's something that he did not do.
28:57
Speaker 4: They proved him innocent and then took him to court
29:01
Speaker 4: and said four one hundred thousand dollars in back child sport.
29:04
Speaker 1: Since sane.
29:05
Speaker 5: The good news is you've got your settlement, which gave
29:09
Speaker 5: you the ability to really start.
29:11
Speaker 1: Your life again.
29:13
Speaker 5: And there's no amount that's adequate, I don't think, no
29:16
Speaker 5: matter what you got or what any of the guys get,
29:19
Speaker 5: and unfortunately a lot of guys get terribly little, you know.
29:23
Speaker 5: I mean there's some states where the most you can
29:25
Speaker 5: get is twenty five thousand, some states where you get nothing, Tina.
29:28
Speaker 5: So ultimately this has taken now a miraculous turn. The
29:33
Speaker 5: evidence gets found, that state settles, and you start a family.
29:38
Speaker 5: You did so tell me about that.
29:40
Speaker 4: My husband had wanted a daughter, actually wanted a child,
29:44
Speaker 4: He wanted a family whenever he got out of prison.
29:46
Speaker 3: Obviously, once I get home, had girl.
29:49
Speaker 4: We named her after Kobe Bryant because he's a Lakers fan.
29:52
Speaker 4: So her name's Jacobe. And she's three and about to
29:56
Speaker 4: be four. She's about to be four, and she's very spunky.
29:58
Speaker 4: We get asked often if she's adopted. She has a
30:01
Speaker 4: Briton accent. We don't know where it came from.
30:04
Speaker 1: Wow, that's pretty odd. Fish out of water.
30:08
Speaker 7: Yeah, she's smart. She picks up on everything.
30:12
Speaker 1: Does she speak with an English accent all the time? Yes,
30:15
Speaker 1: all the time.
30:16
Speaker 5: Yes.
30:16
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh.
30:17
Speaker 5: She has to get on television right away. And I mean,
30:19
Speaker 5: is that? Do people have trouble understanding her?
30:22
Speaker 4: They laugh, mostly because they just can't believe what's coming
30:26
Speaker 4: out of her mouth. You know, when she starts talking,
30:28
Speaker 4: she drags out certain words and she just comes up
30:31
Speaker 4: with things that we have no idea where she's heard
30:33
Speaker 4: them from. And I just think she's going to grow
30:35
Speaker 4: into it, and she's going to have this amazing little personality,
30:38
Speaker 4: be spunky, And that's all I can hope for, because
30:42
Speaker 4: otherwise we're going to have to move in a therapist
30:44
Speaker 4: and a preacher.
30:46
Speaker 5: I'm just picturing this three year old who is named
30:49
Speaker 5: after Kobe Bryant, who speaks with an English accent because
30:53
Speaker 5: she's beautiful.
30:54
Speaker 7: To top it off, she is I don't doubt, I
30:56
Speaker 7: mean on beautiful. So she just smiled and you're like, oh,
31:02
Speaker 7: she's so precious.
31:03
Speaker 4: And then.
31:05
Speaker 7: As far as it gets.
31:08
Speaker 5: That's incredible. And then you have your son, and how's
31:10
Speaker 5: he dealing with all of this?
31:11
Speaker 7: He wants to be an officer when he grows up.
31:14
Speaker 2: He laid back and he'll sit back in his room
31:16
Speaker 2: for hours and play his games and sit on the
31:18
Speaker 2: couch and he's laid back like me.
31:21
Speaker 1: Yeah, that sounds like he sort of know where she
31:23
Speaker 1: came from.
31:25
Speaker 5: He's got the chill factor and the other one's got
31:27
Speaker 5: the wow. So before we have to wrap up, it's extraordinary.
31:32
Speaker 5: I mean when I met you both, I was of
31:34
Speaker 5: course taken by the story. I've since met a number
31:38
Speaker 5: of other axonneries who ended up in relationships with women
31:41
Speaker 5: who worked in the prisons that they were in, So
31:43
Speaker 5: it's not unheard of, but it is unusual. And is
31:47
Speaker 5: there anything else that you'd like to share about this
31:50
Speaker 5: extraordinary journey that you're both on.
31:52
Speaker 4: Everybody always says do not judge book by its cover,
31:56
Speaker 4: but it literally means do not judge book bytes cover.
32:00
Speaker 4: Get to know somebody, anybody, just get to know them
32:03
Speaker 4: a little bit, and it may turn into something a
32:05
Speaker 4: whole lot more. You may end up meeting the love
32:08
Speaker 4: of your life just by a simple conversation.
32:11
Speaker 1: Cedric, I think they add to that. That's pretty good.
32:14
Speaker 3: That's pretty good.
32:15
Speaker 5: So I guess the message there really is, and it's
32:18
Speaker 5: something I think about a lot, is really to just
32:20
Speaker 5: keep your mind open.
32:22
Speaker 1: So judge. There's too much of that.
32:24
Speaker 5: Going on right now in this country. But I think
32:26
Speaker 5: there's you know, there's the other side as well. I
32:28
Speaker 5: think there we're in a time where there's going to
32:30
Speaker 5: be a reaction and there's going to be more, more
32:32
Speaker 5: understanding and more I'm hoping, more racial tolerance, more religious tolerance,
32:36
Speaker 5: more open mindedness, and you're certainly a great example of that.
32:39
Speaker 1: And then look what happens right.
32:41
Speaker 7: You know, again, just keep your eyes open. You never know,
32:44
Speaker 7: he may be not what you think.
32:46
Speaker 4: You're mister perfect or missus perfect, because I definitely did
32:49
Speaker 4: not expect my future husband to be a tall, beautiful
32:53
Speaker 4: black man.
32:54
Speaker 7: I was expecting a country boy. I got something different,
32:56
Speaker 7: and that's great.
32:57
Speaker 5: I'm really thrilled for both of you. You know, I
33:00
Speaker 5: believe in miracles, and there's a lot of miracles in
33:03
Speaker 5: this story and I wish you all the best that
33:05
Speaker 5: I can't wait to hear what happens next. Don't forget
33:14
Speaker 5: to give us a fantastic review. Wherever you get your podcasts.
33:17
Speaker 1: It really helps.
33:18
Speaker 5: And I'm a proud donor to the Ennocence Project and
33:21
Speaker 5: I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very
33:24
Speaker 5: important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go
33:28
Speaker 5: to Innocenceproject dot org to learn how to donate and
33:31
Speaker 5: get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor
33:34
Speaker 5: Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in the show is
33:37
Speaker 5: by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure
33:41
Speaker 5: to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on
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Speaker 5: Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm
33:48
Speaker 5: is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association
33:52
Speaker 5: with Signal Company Number one