Latest / Do You F*cking Mind? / How to help someone out of a coercive controlling relationship

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How to help someone out of a coercive controlling relationship · Do You F*cking Mind?

0:11
Speaker 1: Hello, beautiful beans, and welcome to the podcast episode of today.
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Speaker 1: My name is Alexis Fernandez. This is Do Your Fucking Mind,
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Speaker 1: the podcast where I help you change your relationship with
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Speaker 1: your brain, with yourself, and with your entire life. Now
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Speaker 1: in this head Noise episode, if you listen to the
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Speaker 1: first one that I released literally just like a few
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Speaker 1: minutes ago. So if you listen to that one, you'd
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Speaker 1: know that this is a head Noise episode. But the
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Speaker 1: reason I split it into two parts is because I
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Speaker 1: want this particular episode to be something quite searchable. I
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Speaker 1: think a lot of people are in a situation where
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Speaker 1: they have a loved one, a friend, or a family
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Speaker 1: member who is in a coers of controlling situation with
0:48
Speaker 1: their partner, and they want to know what to do
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Speaker 1: about it. So I thought, you know, this listener sent
0:53
Speaker 1: in their voice mesage about to play it, and I thought,
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Speaker 1: this is not just something that I want in a
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Speaker 1: head Noise episode. I'd like to flesh it out as
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Speaker 1: an episode on its own, because when you title things,
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Speaker 1: that's how people search for podcast episodes. It's based on
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Speaker 1: the title of the podcast. And the only downside of
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Speaker 1: my Head Nois episodes is that it makes specific topics
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Speaker 1: and titles difficult to search for when it's in a
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Speaker 1: headloins episode. So this is why I've split it up today.
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Speaker 1: I don't always split them up. Today is an exception,
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Speaker 1: So let's get straight into it. We're going to play
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Speaker 1: the listener's question, and then I'm going to dive into
1:27
Speaker 1: ways of identifying coercive control exactly what it means. I
1:30
Speaker 1: do have a much longer episode on courseive control that
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Speaker 1: I released a couple of years ago. But then I'm
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Speaker 1: going to be talking about specifically how you can support
1:38
Speaker 1: somebody in this situation, exact things that you can be doing,
1:42
Speaker 1: and how to reframe things to be the best support possible.
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Speaker 2: My twenty two year old son is in a relationship
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Speaker 2: with a girl who uses coersive control and manipulation, and
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Speaker 2: he is having a hard time getting out.
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Speaker 1: He sees it, but he.
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Speaker 2: Keeps trying, and I am so desperate to help him,
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Speaker 2: but he doesn't listen. Maybe you can help him.
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Speaker 1: Please, Okay, So obviously it's extremely frustrating for people that
2:12
Speaker 1: are you know, where it's your family member, it's you know,
2:16
Speaker 1: obviously your child, or your sibling or anyone or a
2:19
Speaker 1: best friend. It's really really really difficult. So for those
2:21
Speaker 1: of you that are still like, what exactly is coersive control,
2:24
Speaker 1: because you might have heard it more, at least in Australia,
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Speaker 1: it is now a like a federal but definitely crimes
2:31
Speaker 1: in at least I think New Southwales, Queensland, I think
2:34
Speaker 1: Victoria as well, hopefully across Australia, where it's now an
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Speaker 1: actual crime to use coersive control against your partner, while
2:41
Speaker 1: that it wasn't a crime before. But anyway, let's talk
2:44
Speaker 1: about signs off coercive control. So one of the major ones,
2:51
Speaker 1: but not it's not exclusive. Sometimes everything that I'm going
2:55
Speaker 1: to say out here, I just want to quickly say
2:58
Speaker 1: before I get into it, is it doesn't have to
3:00
Speaker 1: be everything that I mentioned. It could be some of
3:02
Speaker 1: the things or some of the other things. There are
3:05
Speaker 1: going to be situations that are very specific in a
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Speaker 1: romantic relationship that don't you know that I'm not across
3:11
Speaker 1: the board with every single coercive controlling relationship. So just
3:16
Speaker 1: bear that in mind that if you're thinking you're going
3:18
Speaker 1: through a checklist and think, oh, well, that's not my situation,
3:20
Speaker 1: so it mustn't be that kind of listen to the
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Speaker 1: whole thing and then make up your mind based on
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Speaker 1: what I say. So one of the really really popular,
3:27
Speaker 1: quote unquite popular ones is financial control. So a really
3:31
Speaker 1: big way of coercive control is to very quickly limit
3:35
Speaker 1: access to money. Okay. In traditional gender role relationships, something
3:41
Speaker 1: that you'll often see is this pressure from the mail,
3:45
Speaker 1: pressuring the woman to stay at home, and then he
3:49
Speaker 1: will take financial control over that. So removing this independence
3:53
Speaker 1: is financial independence and then disguising it, especially initially as
3:57
Speaker 1: I'm looking after you, I want to look after you,
4:00
Speaker 1: I want to provide I wanted this, I wanted that.
4:01
Speaker 1: It starts off as something really like it appears to
4:04
Speaker 1: be well meaning, and it appears to be this romantic
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Speaker 1: the r but there's like an underlying reason of why
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Speaker 1: they're doing that. But at the same time, they are
4:14
Speaker 1: expecting unpaid domestic labor as like an obvious obligation. So
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Speaker 1: it's not like looking after you and you don't have
4:21
Speaker 1: to do anything. It's You're going to pull one hundred
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Speaker 1: percent of the weight doing all the domestic labor, and
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Speaker 1: I'm going to bring in the financial weight. Okay. So
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Speaker 1: financial control is a really big one. They treat shared
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Speaker 1: income or their income in a position where you're doing
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Speaker 1: all the stuff at home as belonging only to the breadwinner.
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Speaker 1: So something you'll often see is stay at home mothers.
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Speaker 1: And I'm not saying this is all coercive control, but
4:46
Speaker 1: something that fucking grinds my gears is when there's a
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Speaker 1: stay at home mum rearing the children and doing all
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Speaker 1: the housework, and then there's a husband bringing in the money,
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Speaker 1: but then the mum having to be like, oh, I
4:58
Speaker 1: had to ask my husband for money for coffee to
5:00
Speaker 1: go out for coffee today. So what do you mean,
5:02
Speaker 1: ask your team, this is your joint bank account. If
5:05
Speaker 1: I didn't bring in any money, but I also was
5:08
Speaker 1: expected to do all the looking after the children and
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Speaker 1: all the whatever, I would be having fucking full access
5:14
Speaker 1: to the joint bank account, right obviously, because you're a
5:17
Speaker 1: team anyway. But in these situations that's not the case.
5:20
Speaker 1: So sometimes they'll give an allowance to their partner and
5:23
Speaker 1: they're trying to create financial dependence. Now, this financial dependence
5:27
Speaker 1: is not the only way coercive control can happen. There's
5:31
Speaker 1: other ways as well. Now a big one is gaslighting. Okay,
5:35
Speaker 1: so this is where you make somebody question their memory.
5:39
Speaker 1: Where you will deny something to the death, someone will say, oh,
5:42
Speaker 1: well this happened. You're like, that never happened, that never happened.
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Speaker 1: You're mistaken, and I know for a fact that it
5:47
Speaker 1: never happened because I And then you come up with
5:48
Speaker 1: your reasons to convince your partner as to why they
5:51
Speaker 1: never happened and why they probably have a really distorted memory.
5:54
Speaker 1: Then the more you do that, the more the victim
5:58
Speaker 1: in this relationship starts to doubt their own memory. They
6:00
Speaker 1: can't trust their own memory. A good gas slider, a
6:04
Speaker 1: pro gaslider, gets you to start doubting yourself constantly. You
6:08
Speaker 1: doubt your memory. You doubt your your perception of an event.
6:13
Speaker 1: When you say, oh, well, you were yelling at me.
6:15
Speaker 1: I never yelled at you. I was actually just talking
6:17
Speaker 1: to you. You could ask anyone I never yelled at you.
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Speaker 1: I don't know where you got that from. You are
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Speaker 1: making things up na da dah. So then you start thinking, oh,
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Speaker 1: my god, am I like misinterpreting things that are just normal. Okay.
6:26
Speaker 1: They will convince you that you are irrational. They will
6:30
Speaker 1: always shift the blame, and often, in a course of
6:32
Speaker 1: controlling relationship, you the victim will start to feel like
6:37
Speaker 1: they have to apologize, even when they know they are
6:40
Speaker 1: not in the wrong, but they apologize to keep the peace.
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Speaker 1: They think the only way this is going to get resolved,
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Speaker 1: not even resolved, the only way this will go away
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Speaker 1: is if I just apologize. But the problem with that
6:50
Speaker 1: is that's exactly what the perpetrator is trying to do.
6:53
Speaker 1: They are trying to get you to to give them
6:56
Speaker 1: the power no matter who is in the wrong. They
6:59
Speaker 1: know they're in the wrong, but if they manipulate the
7:01
Speaker 1: situation and make you feel bad enough and try and
7:03
Speaker 1: gaslight you and try and shift the blame all the time,
7:06
Speaker 1: they know that eventually you're going to say, well, you
7:08
Speaker 1: know what, fuck it, I'm just going to give in
7:10
Speaker 1: and say sorry because you're exhausted. You're like, fuck it,
7:12
Speaker 1: I can't do this anymore. Fuck it. You're right, sorry,
7:15
Speaker 1: I apologize. So for the victim, they're like, I just
7:17
Speaker 1: need to get this off my back. But for them,
7:19
Speaker 1: they're one step closer to controlling you. They're one step
7:22
Speaker 1: closer to getting exactly what they want from you, even
7:24
Speaker 1: though you might be apologizing knowing that they are in
7:27
Speaker 1: the wrong. So then yeah, this whole thing is to
7:32
Speaker 1: ultimately get you, to get the victim to doubt themselves
7:35
Speaker 1: more than to doubt their abuser. If they can get that,
7:37
Speaker 1: then they've got you where they want you. It's kind
7:40
Speaker 1: of a form of brainwashing in a way. Something else
7:44
Speaker 1: that's really common in course of controlling the situation. I
7:48
Speaker 1: was going to say, situationships relationships is this monitoring? I
7:52
Speaker 1: need to know where you are at all times. I
7:54
Speaker 1: need to know who you're hanging out with. I need
7:56
Speaker 1: to be able to go through your phone. I need
7:57
Speaker 1: to be able to access your social media. Who are
7:59
Speaker 1: you messaging? How you're messaging them? Why? They also want
8:04
Speaker 1: instant replies? Why don't you reply straight away? What else
8:07
Speaker 1: could you have been doing? You're at lunch, Like, why
8:09
Speaker 1: can't you just reply? You've got your phone and you
8:11
Speaker 1: all the fucking time, but the one time that I'm
8:13
Speaker 1: not there, you all of a sudden can't reply. So
8:15
Speaker 1: where are you? Who else is taking your attain But
8:17
Speaker 1: like this incessant obsession with you having to be contactable
8:23
Speaker 1: all the fucking time. They expect you to share locations
8:28
Speaker 1: with you. They become very unhinged when you are unavailable.
8:33
Speaker 1: If they can't get a hold of you, they lose it. Okay.
8:38
Speaker 1: They also never really allow genuine privacy, And what I
8:41
Speaker 1: mean by that is there is one thing to say,
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Speaker 1: oh well, we should have nothing to hide between each other,
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Speaker 1: we should never have it. But then they also expect
8:51
Speaker 1: access to things that really do deserve privacy. Like let's
8:55
Speaker 1: say you're having a very private conversation with your best
8:57
Speaker 1: friend about something that's private to your friend. They are
9:01
Speaker 1: feel entitled to access to that. If you're having a
9:04
Speaker 1: text conversation and you're like, oh well that's private, They're like,
9:08
Speaker 1: why why would you keep that from me?
9:09
Speaker 2: Right?
9:09
Speaker 1: They feel entitled to anything that you have access to.
9:14
Speaker 1: They feel entitled to have access to that. They have
9:16
Speaker 1: access to everything that you have access to, which is
9:19
Speaker 1: obviously abusive because I think a lot of people have
9:23
Speaker 1: gone the other way thinking, oh well, you had nothing
9:25
Speaker 1: from your partner, You had nothing. But people have a
9:27
Speaker 1: very skewed perception. Those people who think you had nothing
9:30
Speaker 1: from your partner, you had nothing. They don't understand what
9:32
Speaker 1: privacy actually means. If someone is telling me something that
9:36
Speaker 1: is private to them, it is not up to me
9:38
Speaker 1: to share it with anyone. And some people say, oh well,
9:39
Speaker 1: you know know that you're going to tell your partner.
9:41
Speaker 1: Depends depends on the context. There are some situations that
9:45
Speaker 1: you know, and I think if you think that, oh well,
9:47
Speaker 1: I'll tell my partner everything. Yeah, if it's relevant, of
9:49
Speaker 1: course I will. If it's absolutely relevant, and if it's
9:51
Speaker 1: just weird not to tell my partner. But you are
9:54
Speaker 1: still allowed to keep someone else's secret just because you're
9:58
Speaker 1: in a fucking romantic relationship. I think you're a bad
10:00
Speaker 1: friend if you can't keep a really important secret just
10:03
Speaker 1: because you're married or just because you're in a relationship.
10:05
Speaker 1: That's crazy anyway. So this thing is they basically expect
10:12
Speaker 1: you to be accessible twenty four seven, and when you're not,
10:17
Speaker 1: the world comes down. Another really big one, this is
10:24
Speaker 1: probably the biggest one, is isolation. So the abuser is
10:27
Speaker 1: going to try and disconnect you from as many sources
10:29
Speaker 1: as possible in order to be able to control you.
10:32
Speaker 1: The more isolated the victim is, the less resources they
10:37
Speaker 1: have and the more they're going to need to rely
10:39
Speaker 1: on their abuser. So they're going to try and disconnect
10:42
Speaker 1: you from your friends, from your family, colleagues, from any
10:45
Speaker 1: kind of support system. They're going to try and create
10:48
Speaker 1: a bit of a disconnect. It's really big that they'll
10:50
Speaker 1: try and turn you against certain people. There's going to
10:53
Speaker 1: be certain people that's going to be impossible to turn
10:55
Speaker 1: you against, Like maybe you're super tight with your best friends,
10:58
Speaker 1: or maybe you're so tight with your family that for
11:00
Speaker 1: them they find it a really big hurdle. But it's
11:02
Speaker 1: going to be there's going to be other things where
11:04
Speaker 1: it's a lot easier, like colleagues at work or whatever.
11:06
Speaker 1: They'll a big one is where they'll say, oh, that
11:09
Speaker 1: person's got to crush on you. I just don't think
11:11
Speaker 1: and you're like, of course, they don't have a crust.
11:12
Speaker 1: They're like, you're an idiot if you don't see that
11:14
Speaker 1: they have a crushing you. So now all of a sudden,
11:16
Speaker 1: they've turned this, you know, amicable friendship into something that
11:20
Speaker 1: you're like, oh, well, now it's inappropriate for me to
11:22
Speaker 1: hang out with them, because now they've flagged that this
11:26
Speaker 1: person is in love with me, and if I continue
11:28
Speaker 1: to hang out with them, I'm being inappropriate to them
11:30
Speaker 1: because they're in love with me. It's not fair and
11:31
Speaker 1: I'm being unfair to my part. You know that kind
11:33
Speaker 1: of shit when clearly they don't have a crush on you,
11:36
Speaker 1: but they're like, oh, well, you're an idiot if you
11:37
Speaker 1: don't see it. That kind of stuff, Okay, they'll try
11:40
Speaker 1: and pull you further away from your family. Maybe not
11:44
Speaker 1: so obviously, maybe they have to be a bit more
11:47
Speaker 1: sly in how they go about pulling you away from
11:49
Speaker 1: their family. Maybe they start by picking on other in
11:51
Speaker 1: laws in the family, or maybe they start by being like,
11:53
Speaker 1: that's weird that your sister said that, or a big
11:56
Speaker 1: one is to say I just don't think that your
11:59
Speaker 1: sister likes me. So they'll make it about them. They'll
12:01
Speaker 1: try and like so then you start feeling really awkward
12:04
Speaker 1: and uncomfortable, and then they're like, I just know that
12:06
Speaker 1: your family doesn't like me. They just don't like me.
12:08
Speaker 1: So then you're like trying to patch things up. And
12:11
Speaker 1: then you think, oh, well, it's just less effort if
12:13
Speaker 1: we're not hanging out with them as much, because now
12:15
Speaker 1: the abuse that is constantly talking about how awkward it
12:18
Speaker 1: is and how uncomfortable they were made to feel, even
12:20
Speaker 1: if they weren't, but they will create this whole thing.
12:23
Speaker 1: So then you now feel, oh, well, this is just
12:25
Speaker 1: so uncomfortable. It's just easier to have less of these interactions.
12:29
Speaker 1: They're really good at creating these weird scenarios in their
12:32
Speaker 1: head to isolate you from the people you were closest to. Okay,
12:36
Speaker 1: they will do their very best to create conflict with
12:39
Speaker 1: you when you spend time with other people. So even
12:42
Speaker 1: if they don't directly make a stab about your best friend,
12:45
Speaker 1: they will try and create an argument or a fight
12:48
Speaker 1: every time you've tried to go and hang out with
12:50
Speaker 1: your best friend one on one. They just make it difficult.
12:52
Speaker 1: They make life difficult every time you're doing anything to
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Speaker 1: try and socialize or you know, like maintain your connections
13:01
Speaker 1: with people outside of your relationship. Then freedom, like restriction
13:07
Speaker 1: of freedom is another one. So this is where they
13:10
Speaker 1: try and tell you what you can do versus like
13:14
Speaker 1: like like For example, they don't like you wearing whatever
13:19
Speaker 1: the fuck you want. They have to have a say
13:20
Speaker 1: on what you wear. They have to have a say
13:23
Speaker 1: on you, know, your style and how you're presenting yourself
13:27
Speaker 1: to other people. If it's you know, the makeup is
13:30
Speaker 1: a big one. They'll tell you you're wearing too much
13:31
Speaker 1: makeup or who you're trying to impress with that makeup
13:33
Speaker 1: or through this orde la la dah. Work wise, they
13:37
Speaker 1: try and like steer you into what they think is
13:41
Speaker 1: appropriate for you to work or what like what kind
13:44
Speaker 1: of jobs you're in, or what kind of employment you
13:46
Speaker 1: use you choose to take, or who you're engaging with
13:49
Speaker 1: when you're even at work, social activities, how you spend
13:53
Speaker 1: your own time. They don't believe that you just have
13:55
Speaker 1: free time. They just have access to your time. So
13:58
Speaker 1: you can't be like, oh, well, I'm just going to
14:00
Speaker 1: go and do this today and go off on your own.
14:03
Speaker 1: That would just never happen. Someone in a course of
14:05
Speaker 1: controlling relationship couldn't be like, oh, I've blocked out this
14:07
Speaker 1: afternoon to just do my own thing. That would just
14:11
Speaker 1: never happen. They would never feel comfortable to say that.
14:14
Speaker 1: So they basically have authority over your autonomy. You pretty
14:18
Speaker 1: much don't have autonomy is when you're the victim. And then,
14:22
Speaker 1: of course, the false accusations of cheating. This is really
14:25
Speaker 1: really common. They will accuse their partner of cheating, of course,
14:29
Speaker 1: and then because of that they'll try and punish you
14:31
Speaker 1: even though you've not cheated, but they'll withdraw affection. They'll
14:34
Speaker 1: be really cold with you. They're trying to get you
14:38
Speaker 1: to fight for them back even though you haven't done
14:41
Speaker 1: the wrong thing, okay, or even though the victim hasn't
14:43
Speaker 1: done the wrong thing. They're trying to create a trauma bond. Now,
14:48
Speaker 1: very quickly, what is a trauma bond? It's kind of
14:52
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people think, and rightly so,
14:53
Speaker 1: because I feel like the term lends itself to this.
14:56
Speaker 1: But trauma bond is not where two people bond over
14:59
Speaker 1: shared trauma is just bonding over share trauma. A trauma
15:01
Speaker 1: bond is specifically a relationship where there is this push
15:05
Speaker 1: pull of abuse and of deep affection. And so you
15:08
Speaker 1: form this deep bond to the person that's caused you
15:11
Speaker 1: emotional trauma. That is a trauma bond, and then the
15:15
Speaker 1: victim becomes increasingly dependent on the abuser's approval. So then
15:21
Speaker 1: you are bonded through this trauma that they have caused you.
15:24
Speaker 1: So when you say, oh, my best friend and I
15:25
Speaker 1: are trauma bonded, No, I fucking hope you're not trauma bonded.
15:28
Speaker 1: I hope they're not abusing you in that way. Then
15:30
Speaker 1: of course there's blackmail. So when it starts getting really extreme,
15:34
Speaker 1: they are able to blackmail you with secrets that you've
15:38
Speaker 1: told them, blatant lies about you, and they'll threaten you
15:40
Speaker 1: with it. I'm going to tell people that you've gone
15:42
Speaker 1: and done this. I'm going to tell people that you
15:43
Speaker 1: actually did cheat on me. I'm going to tell whatever.
15:46
Speaker 1: They'll threaten you. They've got photos, a few videos if you,
15:49
Speaker 1: And that is like blackmail is a really big one.
15:51
Speaker 1: When things start to get really really extreme, they threatened Basically,
15:55
Speaker 1: they'll destroy your life socially, they'll destroy your life emotionally,
15:58
Speaker 1: they'll destroy all your meaning friendships and things like that.
16:02
Speaker 1: But of course, at the start, because you think, well,
16:04
Speaker 1: how are people getting into these relationships At the start,
16:08
Speaker 1: love bombing is like a huge one. So they start
16:13
Speaker 1: with this intense affection and this attachment is so fast. Now,
16:19
Speaker 1: it's not to say that every relationship that starts hot
16:22
Speaker 1: and heavy and like the attachment happens quickly is love bombing,
16:25
Speaker 1: but it is something to look out for. It's just
16:26
Speaker 1: it should be flagged. You should be like, all right,
16:28
Speaker 1: I need to be hyper aware because this person might
16:30
Speaker 1: just be super affectionate and lovely and things are going
16:33
Speaker 1: at a really quick pace, or it's a sign of
16:35
Speaker 1: love bombing. Emotional dependency is straight away. And when you
16:42
Speaker 1: love bomb, you go hard. You go so fucking hard.
16:44
Speaker 1: You make this person think, oh my god, I finally
16:47
Speaker 1: found what the rom comms talk about. I finally found
16:49
Speaker 1: true love. This is what it means. And then you're
16:52
Speaker 1: so swept up, you're so that you finally let your
16:54
Speaker 1: guard down, and that's when they start to withdraw. That's
16:57
Speaker 1: when they start to kind of test the waters with
17:00
Speaker 1: their unhealthy behavior, and they shock you at first. They'll
17:03
Speaker 1: do something that's kind of shocking and you're like, oh no,
17:05
Speaker 1: but that's not actually them. Maybe they were stressed, Maybe
17:07
Speaker 1: they were this So you forgive the first time because
17:09
Speaker 1: you're like, this person's too perfect. There's no way that
17:11
Speaker 1: they meant that. Maybe you excuse all their behavior because
17:15
Speaker 1: you're comparing all their unhealthy behavior with the first two
17:18
Speaker 1: or three months of the relationship with the best thing
17:20
Speaker 1: you've ever experienced. And then because you have this comparison point,
17:24
Speaker 1: you think that the first three months of the relationship
17:26
Speaker 1: is who they really are, and all this other unhealthy
17:28
Speaker 1: relationship or unhealthy behavior in the relationship is either caused
17:32
Speaker 1: by stress or they you know, I probably made them
17:36
Speaker 1: do that or this side that instead of thinking no, no, no,
17:39
Speaker 1: no no. What they're showing me now is their real
17:41
Speaker 1: behavior and the first three months was an act. That
17:44
Speaker 1: is the biggest trap that people fall into in a relationship.
17:46
Speaker 1: They fall for the trap that the first the person
17:49
Speaker 1: they met is the real them and what came after
17:52
Speaker 1: is caused by stress or external factors. It's the other
17:55
Speaker 1: way round. Okay, Now I'm going to give advice for
18:00
Speaker 1: friends and family on how you can help someone who
18:03
Speaker 1: is in this relationship in like a you know, like
18:06
Speaker 1: this parent that wrote in about Hassan, when your child,
18:11
Speaker 1: best friend, sibling is in a coercive, controlling relationship. There
18:17
Speaker 1: are many many things that you can be doing, but
18:20
Speaker 1: a lot of them are extremely frustrating for you. First,
18:22
Speaker 1: it's very frustrating to see someone in that situation and
18:24
Speaker 1: you just want to yell at them, like shake them,
18:26
Speaker 1: Just why can't you say it? I have to understand,
18:28
Speaker 1: and the reason why I wanted to give an in
18:30
Speaker 1: depth explanation is because you have to understand the process
18:33
Speaker 1: that they get to and in order to get to
18:36
Speaker 1: the point where they're really under their abuses control. It's
18:40
Speaker 1: not overnight. It happens slowly. It erodes them, It chips
18:44
Speaker 1: away at them, so they haven't come to this conclusion
18:47
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, Oh, this abuse is actually I
18:48
Speaker 1: love the person. No that it takes time. It's a
18:51
Speaker 1: process of brainwashing and eroding their self esteem, eroding the confidence,
18:55
Speaker 1: eroding their trust in themselves. So then the victim feels
18:58
Speaker 1: that they don't have recal change and they genuinely believe
19:02
Speaker 1: that not only do they need their abuser, but if
19:04
Speaker 1: they did leave their abuser, they'd never get anyone as
19:07
Speaker 1: good because their self esteem has been so eroded. Okay,
19:12
Speaker 1: so keep that in mind when you are trying to
19:15
Speaker 1: support this person that you love. So of course, try
19:19
Speaker 1: your best not to judge them. It's easy to judge
19:21
Speaker 1: when you've never been in this situation. It's actually great
19:25
Speaker 1: for you that you're able to judge someone because it
19:27
Speaker 1: means you haven't been in that situation. So it's hard
19:31
Speaker 1: to imagine what it would be like. Don't ever say
19:34
Speaker 1: just leave, okay, because that's really difficult for someone. When
19:38
Speaker 1: you say, oh, just leave, h just leave, they feel like, oh,
19:43
Speaker 1: you've made it so simple. You don't understand my dynamic.
19:45
Speaker 1: You don't understand, and they also still believe that they
19:47
Speaker 1: love this person as well. So for you to say
19:49
Speaker 1: just leave, if anything, it's going to push them away
19:51
Speaker 1: from not talking about it. If they did leave and
19:55
Speaker 1: then return, don't shame them for returning. Don't talk about how,
20:00
Speaker 1: oh my god, you shouldn't have done that, and you're this,
20:01
Speaker 1: and you're that. You've got to try and be that
20:03
Speaker 1: support again. You've got to try and encourage them to
20:06
Speaker 1: feel comfortable to be able to leave again. So what
20:10
Speaker 1: I do think that you should do is number one,
20:13
Speaker 1: you should bring it up. A lot of people think,
20:16
Speaker 1: oh my god, but I can't bring it up. There's
20:17
Speaker 1: no place that I could bring it up. There's just
20:19
Speaker 1: no way that I can raise it. There's no way. Firstly,
20:22
Speaker 1: bring it up when they're either at your place and
20:23
Speaker 1: when you're at a walk. Don't bring it up in
20:25
Speaker 1: their home because in really extreme cases of course of control,
20:27
Speaker 1: they're being recorded. Probably Okay, so you want to bring
20:30
Speaker 1: it up in a relatively safe space for this person.
20:33
Speaker 1: Then you want to bring it up in the sense
20:34
Speaker 1: of not don't don't make it this intervention where you've
20:38
Speaker 1: got a whole group of people being like you have
20:40
Speaker 1: to the first time you raise it, you have to
20:44
Speaker 1: raise it as I just want to say something that
20:47
Speaker 1: I've observed, and I just want to tell you what
20:49
Speaker 1: I've observed, and you don't have to answer me, and
20:52
Speaker 1: you don't have to think that I expect you to change.
20:54
Speaker 1: I just want you to know what I've observed, and
20:57
Speaker 1: then you can say I've observed that you've become more withdrawn.
21:01
Speaker 1: I feel like there's certain behaviors in this relationship that
21:04
Speaker 1: are quite controlling versus when you weren't in this relationship
21:07
Speaker 1: versus when you are. I can notice that you're doing
21:10
Speaker 1: X y Z, that your phone's being checked at this,
21:12
Speaker 1: that whatever. I just want you to know that I
21:14
Speaker 1: do see it, I do notice it, and I just
21:16
Speaker 1: hope that you're okay, and if there's anything that I
21:18
Speaker 1: can do to help you, I want to be that
21:20
Speaker 1: person to help you. Notice the difference here. You're not
21:23
Speaker 1: character assassinating their partner, even though you'd love to. You're
21:27
Speaker 1: not making them feel like an idiot for staying. You're
21:30
Speaker 1: not telling them what they need to be doing. You're
21:33
Speaker 1: saying I have observed, and then they start to realize, Wow,
21:37
Speaker 1: this is more noticeable than I realize because a lot
21:39
Speaker 1: of people, and I speak from experience here when I
21:41
Speaker 1: was in an abusive relationship as well, they try to
21:45
Speaker 1: protect their abuser and they want their family and friends
21:48
Speaker 1: to really like them, so they don't share this just
21:50
Speaker 1: willing nelly with anyone. They try and put on a front.
21:53
Speaker 1: Oh no, we're fine, We're fine, it's all fine, because
21:55
Speaker 1: I don't want my friends and family hating on my partner.
21:57
Speaker 1: But if you say, listen, this is what I observing,
21:59
Speaker 1: you say and gently, it opens up the opportunity for
22:03
Speaker 1: them to open up about it. And if they don't
22:05
Speaker 1: open up about it, they know that you are still
22:08
Speaker 1: a safe space to talk about it because you didn't
22:09
Speaker 1: come in red hot on the attack. You didn't say
22:11
Speaker 1: they're a fuck with they're an arshoile. They're doing this,
22:13
Speaker 1: don't you realize? Don't you realize? Because they then feel
22:16
Speaker 1: even more insecure. As much as all of what you
22:19
Speaker 1: want to say is true, it doesn't actually help. You're
22:22
Speaker 1: talking about behaviors that you are observing. You want them
22:25
Speaker 1: to realize, Oh my god, this actually is black and white.
22:28
Speaker 1: It's not emotional. You're not getting all hard, but this
22:31
Speaker 1: puss is a dechead and whatever. No you're saying, they're
22:34
Speaker 1: checking your phone when you're around me. You do feel
22:37
Speaker 1: on edge. You used to be like this, nowserve this
22:39
Speaker 1: change La da da da. You just make it very
22:42
Speaker 1: matter of fact and then you say, look, if you
22:45
Speaker 1: don't want to talk about it, to totally understand that,
22:46
Speaker 1: that's fun and you don't have to. But whatever you
22:49
Speaker 1: want from me, if you ever want me to look
22:50
Speaker 1: after your kids, if you want me to look after
22:52
Speaker 1: your dog, if you want me to do this, I
22:53
Speaker 1: can drop you off at places. I'm here, I'm here,
22:56
Speaker 1: I know you've got an appointment next week. Let me
22:58
Speaker 1: take you. Let me do this, let me do that.
22:59
Speaker 1: You start off off offering, offering. Okay, Now, once you've
23:03
Speaker 1: brought it up, don't keep bringing it up all the time,
23:06
Speaker 1: because then they're going to stop wanting to hang out
23:08
Speaker 1: with you. And that's the last thing you want to do.
23:09
Speaker 1: And that's the first thing the abuser wants. The abuser
23:12
Speaker 1: wants isolation, and you are going to give it to
23:14
Speaker 1: them on a platter. If you make every interaction feel
23:17
Speaker 1: really stressful and intense for the victim. Okay, so the
23:21
Speaker 1: victim needs to know you're there, and then hopefully it
23:24
Speaker 1: opens it up for some healthy conversation. Okay, this has
23:27
Speaker 1: happened actually with one of my friends in the past
23:29
Speaker 1: where I did mention. I said, listen, yeah, and I
23:32
Speaker 1: have noticed these things, and she was like yeah, nodding,
23:37
Speaker 1: didn't say anything. So I left it. And then like
23:39
Speaker 1: a couple of weeks after, she came up and she
23:41
Speaker 1: was like, oh, we just had this fight. And for
23:42
Speaker 1: the first time ever she spoke about a fight that
23:45
Speaker 1: they had, and it was the first time she had
23:48
Speaker 1: acknowledged that I was someone that she could talk to
23:50
Speaker 1: about this. So then I had to be very I
23:53
Speaker 1: navigated carefully because I thought I can jump on the
23:57
Speaker 1: bandwagon like I would with anyone else being like oh what,
23:59
Speaker 1: I can't what I But I knew that she was
24:01
Speaker 1: in a coec of controlling situation, so I'm like, how
24:03
Speaker 1: would I navigate this? So what I did was I
24:06
Speaker 1: just got her to keep talking. I got it to
24:08
Speaker 1: feel like, oh my god, this is a safe space
24:09
Speaker 1: to event without feeling like he's being attacked or I'm
24:13
Speaker 1: being attacked or I've done the wrong thing or whatever.
24:15
Speaker 1: So I just kept asking questions and what did you
24:17
Speaker 1: feel and what did you think? Why did you think
24:19
Speaker 1: that was happening? And did you think that was fair?
24:20
Speaker 1: And did this? So you just ask questions. You want
24:23
Speaker 1: to get them regaining their independence, regaining their sense of self.
24:27
Speaker 1: It's good for them to start digging deeper and asking
24:30
Speaker 1: the right questions because then they start to It's good
24:32
Speaker 1: for the victim to feel fucking frustrated and angry, and
24:35
Speaker 1: these feelings can help empower them to make a change.
24:38
Speaker 1: But at the end of the day, they're the ones
24:40
Speaker 1: that have to make a change. So you ask them
24:43
Speaker 1: leading questions that help them lead to the next realization
24:45
Speaker 1: and the next, and the next and the next. You
24:47
Speaker 1: lecturing them doesn't help, annoyingly because we'd love to, but
24:52
Speaker 1: it actually doesn't help, So you want to do that.
24:55
Speaker 1: Another thing that you can do is separate to raising
24:58
Speaker 1: it with them, is do things are going to boost
25:01
Speaker 1: their self esteem. One of the first things to be
25:03
Speaker 1: to take a hit is their self esteem. So let's
25:06
Speaker 1: say you know they're really good at tennis. For example,
25:08
Speaker 1: Let's say they're a fucking gun at tennis. I haven't
25:10
Speaker 1: played tennis in ages, Be like, hey, we were talking
25:12
Speaker 1: about playing tennis. Do you mind teaching us tennis? Can
25:16
Speaker 1: you come out play tennis, and then they come out
25:18
Speaker 1: and they are fucking in their best light, fucking shining,
25:22
Speaker 1: killing it. They're teaching you this, they're teaching you that.
25:24
Speaker 1: You're all having the best time. You're like, fuck, oh
25:26
Speaker 1: my god. Like they're feeling useful, They're feeling like they're contributing.
25:29
Speaker 1: They're like really good at it. Their confidence and self esteem.
25:33
Speaker 1: They feel fucking great after that session. They're like, not
25:35
Speaker 1: only did I have a really fun interaction, but I
25:37
Speaker 1: was useful. I was able to teach someone something. I
25:40
Speaker 1: was good at what I fucking do people acknowledge that
25:42
Speaker 1: I was good, that they were complimenting me, They thanked
25:44
Speaker 1: me after, So they're like, fuck, I feel this is
25:47
Speaker 1: I could have more of this. I'd love more of this.
25:50
Speaker 1: So any situation that you can do that boosts their
25:54
Speaker 1: self esteem and confidence, do more of. Get them out.
25:57
Speaker 1: Always invite them out, even if you're like yeah, but
25:59
Speaker 1: they always say no. They always bowl, they always choose
26:01
Speaker 1: their partner, I always bail. Doesn't matter. Keep inviting them out.
26:03
Speaker 1: The only time to stop inviting them out is if
26:05
Speaker 1: they literally said to you, stop fucking inviting me out.
26:08
Speaker 1: I don't want to go but it doesn't matter how
26:10
Speaker 1: many times they turn them down. Extend the invite. Just
26:13
Speaker 1: extend the invite. Okay. Get them coming out in things
26:17
Speaker 1: that are going to make them feel good in their
26:19
Speaker 1: own skin, that's going to make them feel confident. Do
26:22
Speaker 1: things that you know they used to love doing, maybe
26:25
Speaker 1: before they got into the relationship. They used to love
26:27
Speaker 1: going to an escape room, or they used to love
26:28
Speaker 1: going to surfing, or they used to whatever. Do these
26:31
Speaker 1: activities that remind them of their old self, that put
26:35
Speaker 1: them back in that realm of like, this is what
26:38
Speaker 1: life was like and this is what it could be
26:40
Speaker 1: like again. That you want evidence, you have to provide
26:44
Speaker 1: them with constant evidence that they are good enough, they
26:47
Speaker 1: are confident, they have that self esteem that can come back,
26:52
Speaker 1: that they're needed, they're wanted, they're fun, they're entertaining, people
26:56
Speaker 1: want to be around them. The more evidence you can
26:59
Speaker 1: help gather around them, the faster they're going to come
27:04
Speaker 1: to the conclusion that they can live without their partner
27:07
Speaker 1: and that there actually is a bit of a disconnect
27:10
Speaker 1: between the life they have with their partner and their life.
27:12
Speaker 1: They're starting to realize that they used to have and
27:14
Speaker 1: can have again. Okay, so I know it's a lot
27:18
Speaker 1: of work, but this is what we do for the
27:20
Speaker 1: people that we love. We have to think of ways
27:23
Speaker 1: to really help them, because, yeah, you could have an intervention.
27:26
Speaker 1: You could sit them down and berate them and blast
27:28
Speaker 1: them and like fucking shove a firecracker up their ares
27:30
Speaker 1: and being like, this is why they're around, you're having
27:31
Speaker 1: and we all say it, and we all this, and
27:33
Speaker 1: we all that. But that's very intense for someone to
27:36
Speaker 1: go through, especially someone whose self esteem and confidence has
27:39
Speaker 1: taken a blow, who's someone who's been in an abusive relationship.
27:41
Speaker 1: The last thing they need is to feel attacked by
27:44
Speaker 1: the people that they love. Even though you're trying to
27:45
Speaker 1: do it in a caring way, that's not what they need.
27:49
Speaker 1: So you have to be creative. And another thing is
27:52
Speaker 1: you don't want them leaving like okay, oh fuck the fuck, Okay, yep, okay,
27:56
Speaker 1: I'll leave will feeling absolutely shit about themselves and terrified,
27:59
Speaker 1: because that's when they're most vulnerable to go back. You
28:03
Speaker 1: want them to feel stable and emotionally equipped to be
28:08
Speaker 1: able to leave, and you do that by rebuilding who
28:12
Speaker 1: they used to be. Okay, you do it together, You
28:15
Speaker 1: get your friends, get your family, get everyone to agree
28:17
Speaker 1: we're going to fucking do this together, and don't get
28:19
Speaker 1: everyone to raise it. Oh how you do you want
28:21
Speaker 1: to have a walk on fucking notice that. Just get
28:23
Speaker 1: like the key people to mention it. Maybe two or
28:25
Speaker 1: three people in the group can mention it at different times,
28:28
Speaker 1: but then everyone else is doing everything about the self esteem,
28:30
Speaker 1: inviting out and doing this and doing that and reminding it.
28:33
Speaker 1: And then of course if you can subtly send them
28:36
Speaker 1: you know, my episode on fucking course of control. But
28:39
Speaker 1: that's laid down the line. So I just feel like,
28:43
Speaker 1: if you're ever wondering what is it that I could
28:46
Speaker 1: be doing, think about it from the abuser's point of view.
28:48
Speaker 1: The abuser is trying to isolate. So if they say
28:54
Speaker 1: no to an invitation and you think, well, fuck it,
28:56
Speaker 1: I'll just never invite them again, the abuse is just
28:58
Speaker 1: got exactly what they wanted, Okay. So if they want
29:00
Speaker 1: to isolate you always try and keep them social. Always
29:04
Speaker 1: have the invitation, always have the hint, always message them,
29:06
Speaker 1: always whatever. Okay. Another thing is the abuser is probably
29:11
Speaker 1: if you're close to them, is going to try and
29:14
Speaker 1: create an uncomfortable relationship with you. Now I'm not saying
29:17
Speaker 1: be a doormat, but I'm saying be aware of what
29:21
Speaker 1: the bait is. Let's say I had a sibling who
29:25
Speaker 1: was in an abusive relationship. I absolutely don't know have
29:27
Speaker 1: fucking love my brother in law, But let's say that
29:29
Speaker 1: was the case. If he wanted to create a divide
29:33
Speaker 1: between my sister and I, he would try and create
29:36
Speaker 1: an uncomfortable relationship between myself and him. So he would
29:41
Speaker 1: bait me, and it would depend how I would react,
29:44
Speaker 1: because if I'm the one that blows up, but then
29:46
Speaker 1: the lenses on me, right, and so it's easy for
29:49
Speaker 1: him to then turn to you know, his partner and say,
29:52
Speaker 1: you know, your sister's a fucking psycho. You saw how
29:54
Speaker 1: she yelled at me. You saw that I was just joking.
29:56
Speaker 1: I was just this, I was just that, right right.
29:58
Speaker 1: This is another thing that they do, always look things
30:00
Speaker 1: through the lens of the abuser. You have to outwhip
30:02
Speaker 1: and outsmart the abuser. So you've got to know when
30:05
Speaker 1: the bait is being laid down, and this is where
30:07
Speaker 1: you don't bite the bait. Sometimes control is not engaging.
30:13
Speaker 1: Sometimes you think, oh, but like I have to be right, No,
30:15
Speaker 1: you don't. No, you don't. Sometimes being right is knowing
30:18
Speaker 1: when someone's baiting you and not engaging. I'm not accepting that.
30:23
Speaker 1: I'm not accepting that. I'm not accepting this conversation. I'm
30:25
Speaker 1: not accepting this, this, this animosity between us. I'm not
30:30
Speaker 1: You're like, yeah, nah, maybe that might be the case.
30:32
Speaker 1: If they want like a die hard disagreement, you just say, look, nah,
30:36
Speaker 1: yeah whatever, Like I'll just be indifferent. Okay, don't bite
30:40
Speaker 1: the bait whenever possible, because anytime you snap or yell
30:44
Speaker 1: or there's friction, that's a reason to pull you, pull
30:49
Speaker 1: their partner, the person that you love, away from you.
30:51
Speaker 1: I think it's important to realize that coercive control is
30:54
Speaker 1: psychological abuse, and it is designed to remove someone's autonomy,
31:00
Speaker 1: and they do this through fear, through manipulation, through isolation,
31:03
Speaker 1: through dependency on the abuser. And physical violence is not
31:07
Speaker 1: required for a relationship to be abusive. Okay, so keep
31:12
Speaker 1: that in mind. I think a lot of people think, well,
31:14
Speaker 1: at least they didn't hit you. No, they're both awful.
31:18
Speaker 1: It's not at least they didn't dot dot dot abuse
31:20
Speaker 1: is abuse. Emotional abuse is so fucking damaging. It's just
31:25
Speaker 1: as sometimes more damaging than physical abuse. Okay, so there
31:27
Speaker 1: is no at least they didn't whatever. There is no
31:29
Speaker 1: there should be no abuseful stop. Okay, there should be
31:32
Speaker 1: no comparison, there should be no whatever. Okay, it's abuse.
31:36
Speaker 1: So it needs to be recognized and it has to
31:39
Speaker 1: be treated like you would treat any other domestic violent situation. Okay,
31:44
Speaker 1: that is the takeaway of the episode. I really hope
31:48
Speaker 1: that this was a bit of an eye opening episode
31:50
Speaker 1: for a lot of people who know that they've got
31:52
Speaker 1: someone going through this, that there's a love on going
31:55
Speaker 1: through it. If you have gone through it yourself or
31:57
Speaker 1: if you in it yourself, I hope that this is
32:00
Speaker 1: really helped you piece together more in your mind that
32:04
Speaker 1: makes sense for you. Yeah, I just hope that can
32:07
Speaker 1: help in any way. But thank you so much for
32:10
Speaker 1: sending in the question, because hopefully it's helped a lot
32:13
Speaker 1: of other people as well. With that, guys, thank you
32:16
Speaker 1: so much for tuning in to today's episode. As always,
32:20
Speaker 1: remember be kind to yourself, be kind to your brand,
32:21
Speaker 1: don't take shit from anyone, and especially don't take shit
32:24
Speaker 1: from yourself. Dunker