Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to Frazer Gregory & Si Hart about their choice of Mindwarp (2/4)

Transcript

Talks to Frazer Gregory & Si Hart about their choice of Mindwarp (2/4) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

• 0:00
  It's astounding. The Time Lord is fleeting.
• 0:05
  Madness takes its toll, but watch closely for about 3
• 0:12
  episodes longer. I've got to keep control.
• 0:19
  I. Remember watching the?
• 0:21
  Mine war. Dipping into that tortoise tin,
• 0:28
  the baldness would hit me and the verbines would be calling
• 0:33
  Let's do the mind warp again. Let's do the mind warp again.
• 0:44
  It's just a surf. To the left.
• 0:47
  And then knock it. To the right.
• 0:50
  Put your hands on your head. But it's the contest play fish
• 0:58
  that really drives you insane. You're together now.
• 1:02
  Let's. Do.
• 1:05
  The mod. Again.
• 1:10
  Again, some very stiff competition.
• 1:12
  That is the campus thing I've ever heard on a hamster with a
• 1:15
  bump and knife. Well done.
• 1:18
  Thank you. Thank you and welcome back
• 1:20
  everybody to Part 6 or Part 2, whichever way you want to look
• 1:25
  at it, of the trailer of the Time Lord Chapter 2 mind warp.
• 1:31
  We have had our scene set. I think it's safe to see in the
• 1:39
  first episode, first part and we're moving now.
• 1:41
  We established that we. Established that, yes.
• 1:45
  Fraser reiterated that for us at the end, just to remind us that
• 1:50
  we had what, part 1/5? One of us has donated what
• 1:54
  little sonnet you had left to the cause of podcasting and.
• 1:59
  All of us have done that. The Skedaddle test has been
• 2:04
  applied successfully and we are now about to see what happens.
• 2:11
  When you put 1000 volts there were Time Lords brain, but don't
• 2:15
  actually tell anyone involved in the production that's what's
• 2:18
  happening. Worse, Fraser that Time Lord is
• 2:21
  played by Colin Baker. Now, I must say, at this point,
• 2:28
  you know, Colin Baker didn't know what was going on.
• 2:32
  But I didn't get that when I watched this the first, I pretty
• 2:36
  much picked up straight away. The doctor is acting strange
• 2:40
  because of having the electroshock through his brain.
• 2:46
  What did? Is that how you guys felt when
• 2:49
  you first watched this? Or were you?
• 2:51
  I mean, that's that was basically my reading was yeah,
• 2:54
  he just been Fry. But did you know what the actual
• 2:56
  reading is? It's something to do with it's
• 3:01
  Yukonos's brain print is getting.
• 3:03
  It's in there, it's in the helmet because he was the last
• 3:05
  one to use the. Last one.
• 3:07
  And so they're sort of like a print of Yukonos's warrior mind
• 3:11
  over the doctors or something. Yeah, but you see, I got
• 3:19
  confused as an 11 year old because then that's overlaid
• 3:23
  with the matrixes lying and the doctor being very set that the
• 3:28
  evidence is being changed. So how can you trust what you're
• 3:32
  you're watching? And that I think my brain was
• 3:36
  not ready to deal with the idea, that very meta idea that someone
• 3:41
  had changed what they were watching.
• 3:43
  So what's actually happening isn't what actually happened.
• 3:47
  And the fact then that we get that sort of all the way through
• 3:50
  that the matrix is, is being changed, but we never get an
• 3:54
  explanation of what was actually going on.
• 3:57
  And we've got to piece that together.
• 3:58
  I couldn't make those leaps, I think when I was, when I was was
• 4:03
  11. And so that made it very
• 4:05
  difficult for me to, to, I think perhaps even care about what
• 4:11
  was, was happening here. Because if we're not being told
• 4:13
  the truth, then what's the point?
• 4:18
  I think, you know, I was just assumed the doctor was wrong.
• 4:21
  You know, the doctor saying, well, you know, I wouldn't never
• 4:24
  activate that. And clearly the matrix has been
• 4:26
  changed. Clearly that's not what happened
• 4:28
  at all. And I was just thought, well,
• 4:29
  yeah, I mean, it is. It's what happened.
• 4:30
  You were, you were off it. You were.
• 4:33
  But I think it's because it comes back in Vervoids where it
• 4:37
  really in Vervoids. This is not what I saw earlier
• 4:41
  on. In Vervoids, Yeah, in Vervoids.
• 4:43
  It's made really serious. And it's like, I watched this, I
• 4:46
  watched this episode. This is not what I want.
• 4:48
  Yeah, now you have changed it. It's made even clearer in
• 4:52
  Ultimate Foe because we are given an entire alternative end
• 4:56
  to what happens at the end of this story.
• 4:59
  So we're presented with an ending here, and then we're told
• 5:01
  at the end, actually none of that happened, so kind of
• 5:03
  happened. We believe that any of this
• 5:06
  happened. Maybe it's all bullshit.
• 5:08
  Well, exactly so. This is this is it, isn't it
• 5:11
  that? I think fried my brain.
• 5:14
  We will get there in, you know, 612, 1010 years.
• 5:22
  You. Know podcasts time, you know,
• 5:25
  we'll get to that point where the big reveal of, you know,
• 5:28
  well, actually Perry, isn't that at the end.
• 5:29
  So again, you know, if that bit didn't happen, at what point did
• 5:35
  you know that's stop being real and stop becoming time bullshit?
• 5:40
  We know that obviously the doctor was taken out of time at
• 5:44
  that particular moment. That bit is is fixed and it's a
• 5:50
  superb moment and I still, I still have this, this thought of
• 5:57
  what if we'd had the mysterious planet as a stand alone, maybe 4
• 6:02
  part adventure. This is a four part adventure.
• 6:05
  And just as the Doctor becomes the hero again and he's rushing
• 6:09
  in to save Perry, he is dragged out.
• 6:11
  We don't know where he's going. He's drawn back to the TARDIS.
• 6:16
  The TARDIS disappears and we get the end of this story and I just
• 6:22
  think how that would that would have been so brilliant.
• 6:26
  And then we get the trial of a Time Lord.
• 6:29
  What just as like the last? The last of the last 6 episodes
• 6:34
  and we get proper courtroom drama with with arguments and
• 6:37
  clips on the screen and things like this.
• 6:40
  It's not what they're going for, I know, and it's it's structure,
• 6:43
  but I just think that would have been such a brilliant mid season
• 6:47
  cliffhanger that would have got people really talking about the
• 6:50
  show and then coming in. I think the problem with that
• 6:56
  is, is courtroom drama isn't that exciting.
• 7:00
  Apologies for all the judges and lawyers and barristers out
• 7:03
  there. I think the issue we have there
• 7:05
  is you're trying to tell, you know, do a trial for six.
• 7:11
  And then the Daleks burst in and made everything with the Master
• 7:17
  by that point. By that point, no one's left
• 7:21
  watching because everyone's just went, Oh my God, it's just an
• 7:24
  objection after objection. You know, it's like, you know,
• 7:28
  you couldn't imagine, say, like Perry Mason story being dragged
• 7:33
  out over six weeks. It's it needs to be.
• 7:36
  Well, they dragged this one out over 14 weeks.
• 7:39
  Yeah, but it's, it's the weird. They've kind of interspersed
• 7:42
  everything, you know, it's, it's like, yeah, yeah.
• 7:45
  It's always that. What if it never?
• 7:47
  Never quite. Yeah.
• 7:48
  Like in terms of what you would have to do screen as being real
• 7:53
  or not. The only thing we know is that
• 7:56
  the doctor arrived at the courtroom.
• 7:58
  That's it. We don't know when he left, at
• 8:00
  what point in the story he left, what was going on, where anyone
• 8:04
  was. And we now know this is the
• 8:06
  current adventure that he was in.
• 8:08
  So and the doctor can't remember what's happened.
• 8:13
  Well, so that established at the start of of the episode of the
• 8:18
  at the start of the trial that he can't remember what's
• 8:22
  happened to Perry and where she is.
• 8:24
  And and this adventure is all a bit again.
• 8:27
  And that sort of seats into the effect that he's been had the
• 8:31
  brain blue, he's had his mind warmed.
• 8:36
  What I love, though, is how Colin, at least for this
• 8:39
  episode, the Doctor tries to find, you know, oh, it's a
• 8:42
  bluff. You know, I'm just trying to get
• 8:44
  out of there. And then things on the screen
• 8:47
  get worse and worse to the point where he's going, oh God, I'm
• 8:50
  going to talk my way out of this one.
• 8:52
  Yeah, it's just like he doesn't quite believe it either.
• 8:56
  And Colin is playing it very well like that.
• 8:59
  But the Valley art is really pushing him, really, really
• 9:03
  getting under his skin. Yeah, in this one.
• 9:06
  What I do I love my wall and I love Trial of a Time Lord.
• 9:09
  But what I do think is a baffling creative choice is
• 9:13
  that. This.
• 9:15
  This doctor has not gone down particularly well, certainly not
• 9:20
  with the the high UPS. Yeah.
• 9:21
  And so there is a lot of crystal.
• 9:23
  Ultimately, he would be fired at the end of this year.
• 9:25
  They would say we're gonna try somebody else.
• 9:27
  Yeah, 'cause this clearly ain't working out.
• 9:28
  Look at the look at the viewing figures.
• 9:31
  To have a a story which is a sustained critique of the series
• 9:35
  is baffling. And then to have a story within
• 9:38
  that which is a sustained critique of that doctor behaving
• 9:42
  in such an appalling way. It's like, I mean, it's bold,
• 9:47
  but I don't know if it's wise. It's very Philip Martin.
• 9:50
  This is Philip Martin who wrote Gangsters.
• 9:53
  I haven't seen Gangsters, but I've heard a lot about it.
• 9:56
  And that is a an action series with very highly violent
• 10:02
  starring Maurice Colburn, who was Litton as the central
• 10:06
  character. But in the second series, it
• 10:09
  brings in Philip Martin as the author commenting on the story
• 10:15
  as it's happening and breaks the 4th wall and is very meta.
• 10:19
  So it's very much within his wheelhouse.
• 10:22
  And this is very much a Philip Martin story in that way.
• 10:28
  And the same as we've got inventions of Varus that you've
• 10:30
  got the people commenting on the story as you go.
• 10:33
  So this is not a huge jump. I've stolen it for this podcast.
• 10:37
  Sigh. And.
• 10:39
  Then we've got an extra layer of people commenting on this with,
• 10:43
  with, with years of, of, of hindsight and sort of looking
• 10:46
  back. But it's it's a, a really
• 10:50
  interesting structure, but the real story is somewhere in here
• 10:57
  and we will never know what that is.
• 11:00
  That will never ever be revealed now so.
• 11:04
  Yeah, it it is messy and it isn't explained like you said at
• 11:10
  the end. And it is odd that they're doing
• 11:13
  it in the first place given where the show is right now.
• 11:16
  Yeah, but, and it's a big but I I still think scene for scene
• 11:22
  mind what delivers. Like, so you see, it's funny,
• 11:25
  it's dramatic, it's visually interesting, it's well acted.
• 11:30
  So I don't know, as a piece of television to watch, Yeah.
• 11:34
  That's why I've come to love it, because all those other things
• 11:38
  in the end actually outweigh that wayward storytelling,
• 11:43
  because the actual nuts and bolts of what what's on the
• 11:47
  screen is all really incredible. And we're going, we're going to
• 11:51
  see some some amazing performances as all these
• 11:55
  characters that are now bedded in.
• 11:57
  We're going to see some amazing laid back from Patrick Reichardt
• 12:03
  against Brian Blessed, who is loud and noisy and the camera is
• 12:07
  automatically going for him. And it's going to be
• 12:10
  fascinating. It's always fascinating to see
• 12:14
  that battle played out on screen.
• 12:17
  And they even comment, both of them comment on it in the making
• 12:21
  of don't They, where they said, you know, there's Paddy Reichard
• 12:24
  who just got a cup of tea and he's not doing, not really
• 12:27
  acting and he doesn't really know what's going on.
• 12:29
  He's never done a bugger like him.
• 12:32
  He's drinking his cheese so he can remember his bloody lines.
• 12:37
  It's all an affectation. I just like, I don't know if you
• 12:39
  agree with me, right? Yeah.
• 12:40
  Think about Fraser for a second, OK?
• 12:42
  He he is our quietly confident of the three of us.
• 12:45
  He's he's the Patrick Reichert of our and you could just
• 12:49
  imagine. Him.
• 12:50
  He's. Taking a sip of tea and then
• 12:53
  it'll just hit you or something. Yeah.
• 12:54
  So every time Fraser pauses, just imagine him sipping that
• 12:57
  tea. All right.
• 13:02
  So are we ready to watch this? Yes, let's go watch these
• 13:06
  wonderful performances that we have in this episode.
• 13:09
  That's going to count us in. I will him 5, 4321.
• 13:17
  Let's go, baby. I have to say.
• 13:21
  Wonderful. Before we sort of see her in the
• 13:24
  episode in her fabulous Misty the palace that Mark was in fact
• 13:30
  going around doing impressions of macaroni.
• 13:32
  No Matrona Carney. Sorry today she was actually
• 13:35
  coming up to it again. He was going do you wish me to
• 13:39
  denounce you say yes, my Lord. It's.
• 13:44
  So calm. Something.
• 13:46
  Different, you said, doctor. I think that is the big
• 13:52
  difference here between this and Venice of Varos is that this is
• 13:55
  high camping places. Yes, that.
• 13:59
  Is else was funny. No, it had a few moments, but it
• 14:02
  wasn't particularly funny, was it?
• 14:04
  And mission to Magnus was not funny so it's just like he's
• 14:09
  owned this. I don't want to fight you on
• 14:11
  Magnus. I did do Magnus for Too Hot for
• 14:14
  TV recently. I really enjoyed the audio of
• 14:16
  it. It was terrible in all sorts of
• 14:18
  ways, don't get me wrong. I once listened to to it and
• 14:23
  thought me and Steve were in the car and we were listening to it
• 14:26
  speaking. This doesn't make any sense,
• 14:27
  what's going on? And it turned out we'd got the
• 14:30
  IT was playing on random play and we were getting odd tracks
• 14:34
  that didn't make any sense. Hi, have a look at that camera
• 14:38
  angle in a minute there and how close it is to Colin's crotch.
• 14:41
  It's amazing. OK.
• 14:45
  Oh, it won't go back to it now. There, Look.
• 14:47
  Oh my God. Oh, right over the top.
• 14:49
  Yeah, here. We go.
• 14:52
  All I can say now is. Just shaking his head.
• 14:58
  Oh I love this. He wakes up and just starts
• 15:00
  smashing up. Shouting I'm throwing things.
• 15:04
  To protect his brain. Oh, that isn't that great.
• 15:08
  It's first thought. Protect that brain quick.
• 15:13
  Don't shoot brain too much, doesn't send Brian.
• 15:17
  Demon Sorcerer? Oh golly look.
• 15:22
  Oh my God. I think the direction here is a
• 15:25
  little confused. Yes.
• 15:29
  But hey ho. So what is?
• 15:31
  Is this just a 10 in the middle of the sets?
• 15:33
  I think we should work it out. You have.
• 15:35
  A great big door, Very. Gorgeous expensive door.
• 15:39
  Yeah. Doesn't it feel like you're in
• 15:41
  Deep Space 9 when you go through that door?
• 15:44
  Yes. I love the little whistle that
• 15:54
  he does. Colin tries to do it as well,
• 15:57
  doesn't it? Now?
• 16:00
  There was a sequence here in a minute when I first watched
• 16:03
  this. You know the bit where Colin's
• 16:04
  on the floor doing this sort of comedy.
• 16:07
  I was so embarrassed, like my family were in the room and I
• 16:11
  was just like, oh God, why didn't I put case of address on
• 16:16
  the on? I mean, blessed man, you don't
• 16:22
  really need Colin now. Blessed can hold this thing up,
• 16:25
  can't he? Yes, that is what you call star
• 16:28
  power right there. Have you guys seen him in I,
• 16:32
  Claudius? Oh God, yeah, he's fabulous,
• 16:35
  isn't he? Very, very different.
• 16:37
  And that's before he's done Flash Gordon and learnt to
• 16:40
  shout. Yeah, I've.
• 16:43
  I've seen him in a row, probably no one else has ever seen him.
• 16:46
  In which is a film called Flash Gordon.
• 16:49
  It doesn't get mentioned much and I.
• 16:52
  Have heard that Gordon's life, you know.
• 16:56
  Yeah, he's flying blind on a rocket table as well.
• 16:58
  Would you believe I really. Look, how can you say this being
• 17:03
  played seriously like melons in a he.
• 17:06
  I would enjoy that. Come on, this is comedy for for.
• 17:15
  Oh dear. I'm standing by.
• 17:22
  Please try and say that. Look at Colin right now and tell
• 17:25
  me this is being delivered. Seriously.
• 17:28
  Yes, he's playing the part he's playing his part of, like the
• 17:31
  Doctor being being mind warped. In fact.
• 17:36
  If only they would say that, if only they would say the Doctor's
• 17:38
  been mind warped, then we'd have one of those very few occasions
• 17:41
  where the title. Got the hue so rare, you know?
• 17:45
  I know. It never happened.
• 17:46
  So little in in 60 years it's happened so few times it would.
• 17:50
  Just I don't think it happens once this year, does it?
• 17:53
  Certainly no one says the terror of the verbal it's.
• 17:55
  Certainly no one says it's the trial of a Time Lord.
• 18:00
  You are the ultimate phone. This is a very mysterious
• 18:05
  bandit. That Colin's doing his best
• 18:09
  drunk acting there. She's sort of slapping him
• 18:10
  around the face. He's going.
• 18:16
  Oh, I see my Balliard's really pushing him and saying, oh, you,
• 18:20
  you're just saying you don't remember this.
• 18:21
  That's. Just your defence now.
• 18:24
  Is it amnesia? It's really clever because it it
• 18:28
  puts the position in. The balliard is winning at this
• 18:31
  point. Yeah, it's been very evenly
• 18:34
  matched in the first part, but throughout these 4 episodes, the
• 18:38
  Valley art is clearly, you know, winning the case.
• 18:44
  And again, just, I mean, I just can't speak highly enough of
• 18:48
  Colin in these courtroom scenes because he's just doing
• 18:50
  everything now. He's, you know, he's just
• 18:53
  looking. He looks lost and then he snaps
• 18:55
  out of it and looks indignant and he's doing such good.
• 18:59
  Fierce Acton. Although Jason matches him, he
• 19:04
  said there, and it's a wonderful line where he goes.
• 19:06
  You're in for a particularly nasty surprise then, aren't you?
• 19:10
  And the music cuts in then. That ominous music, Yeah.
• 19:15
  You always know that he's a wrong one when he calls him, my
• 19:17
  dear doctor. I suppose we we haven't.
• 19:21
  Spoken, isn't it? Oh, sorry, go on.
• 19:24
  Well, well, the last last time we discussed how the doctor's
• 19:28
  real name, you know, doctor was his surname and known as was his
• 19:33
  first name. That's right.
• 19:36
  But obviously he's it might he might have a middle name here.
• 19:38
  It might be like known as My Dear Doctor because he does get
• 19:45
  referred to as My Dear Doctor. It's getting longer and longer,
• 19:49
  you know that scene between him and River Song is going to have
• 19:51
  to go on forever in Silence of the library now.
• 19:55
  We haven't spoken about Nibiru Shaban too much and Seal as a
• 20:00
  creation. No, we haven't.
• 20:02
  Just what a masterstroke that was.
• 20:06
  He is phenomenal, really, really, really good.
• 20:11
  And even sort of in 1985, I knew I was watching something that a
• 20:17
  really special performance. And I love the fact that this
• 20:20
  story puts him at the forefront, that he was slightly slight line
• 20:26
  sidelined. And this bit is brilliant where
• 20:29
  he's just really going for it to tell Kim how brilliant he is.
• 20:34
  And everyone adores you. They simply love.
• 20:37
  You I will pray to the great more go for your speedy recovery
• 20:42
  and magnificence. But he's really good.
• 20:45
  He's very physical, he's very funny.
• 20:48
  He's the the costume is great. That that's the biggie, I think.
• 20:55
  I mean, the performance is great, but like he's visually
• 20:58
  arresting, isn't he? Yes, look at that long shot.
• 21:03
  Look. At that.
• 21:03
  Look at that. Yeah, that's visually, I think.
• 21:06
  Is that is that Macedon? Yeah.
• 21:09
  I think the top of it is, yeah. But because you've got the dry
• 21:13
  ice coming down, it's absolutely, yeah.
• 21:17
  And this is what they can do now.
• 21:20
  And they could do it effectively and quickly and it looks great.
• 21:25
  What's your take on sale, Fraser?
• 21:28
  That's it's, it's all in Nabil Shaban, isn't it?
• 21:30
  And you know, he just brings them to life so magnificently.
• 21:36
  You'll give that to anyone else. And you know, it's, it's
• 21:40
  nothing, it's just a caricature or whatever.
• 21:44
  But he's he really just finds the depths of disgust until you
• 21:53
  know. He's a mucky character.
• 21:55
  He's just you know that that laughing and you know just these
• 22:01
  line deliveries like you won't mind delivering your sanity to
• 22:05
  the 1st and their signs. You duck dad full of marsh
• 22:13
  minnows, marshmallows. It is really shovelling them in
• 22:17
  and it's really alien. He's like.
• 22:19
  Bear me away, Bear me away. Faster, faster.
• 22:23
  He's he's at this moment where he's panicking.
• 22:25
  You know, there's things going on around him and.
• 22:28
  Because he's kind of in charge, because he's kind of gross, and
• 22:31
  because he's a total fucking coward as well.
• 22:33
  I can imagine the kids just loved him.
• 22:38
  But you're right, if it was an actor that held back, yeah, it
• 22:42
  wouldn't work. And he just does it.
• 22:43
  He goes for it, doesn't a. 100% he doesn't leave anything behind
• 22:47
  it, neither does Brian Blessed, you know, Brian Blessed leaving
• 22:49
  nothing in the in the green room.
• 22:51
  Yeah, every. He's just getting it all out
• 22:53
  there. And I think when you've got when
• 22:57
  you work with Colin, you know, that's yeah.
• 23:02
  What else are you going to do? Really.
• 23:04
  Yeah, if you hold anything back, you are kind of going to come
• 23:09
  across the bit. Trevor LED a bit, you know.
• 23:11
  Well, actually, are you playing it down or you're just not
• 23:13
  playing it very well or something?
• 23:16
  That is kind of it's it's it's like the costume, isn't it?
• 23:20
  You know, because the costume is so bright, the sets have to be
• 23:23
  so bright. But because Colin is so big, you
• 23:26
  know the other performances have to be so big as well.
• 23:30
  But it works it. Works.
• 23:32
  Yeah, it works really well when when you have a some parents
• 23:36
  like this, when you have a cast like this where you have got
• 23:38
  Nabil Shaban, you've got Brian Blessed, you have got
• 23:41
  Christopher Ryan as well, who isn't particularly.
• 23:44
  Reichardt he brings it right. Because he's worked out.
• 23:49
  You need a contrast. Not everyone can be.
• 23:52
  And he's not a big. He's not one of those big.
• 23:55
  Writers Reichardt does what Troughton does in Underwater
• 23:59
  Menace. Yes, I am not competing with.
• 24:02
  I cannot, I will not. So I am going to go the opposite
• 24:05
  way and I'm just going to do my thing.
• 24:08
  So Ricott's just in the background, there being the,
• 24:10
  Nazi being the. Fraser where he goes, you'll not
• 24:15
  die on me fish face, I just. Dump in his.
• 24:18
  Chest very casually. Yeah, it's wonderful.
• 24:20
  Oh, do you know I saw Ricott? He did Romeo and Romeo and
• 24:25
  Juliet for the Open University, Shakespeare's and he absolutely
• 24:30
  can play passion. So it's a it's a deliberate
• 24:33
  choice. Absolutely.
• 24:35
  So it's interesting what what what you say about them saying
• 24:39
  you need a colourful set because this costume is so colourful.
• 24:44
  But here it's not colourful. It's dark and it works as the
• 24:49
  contrast against that. But it's also it's.
• 24:51
  Just a load of bullshit. Isn't it?
• 24:53
  Yeah, but it also makes the coat feel a little bit muted.
• 24:57
  Yep, compared to normal where it it's everything is zinging
• 25:02
  whereas this is like. I mean, there is still here
• 25:05
  there you've still got the yellows and the purples of that
• 25:08
  guard in the background there right as well.
• 25:10
  That's very caught doing this nutsy salute, you know.
• 25:15
  So the risk still some quite bold colours there.
• 25:17
  You've got the blue of the machine there.
• 25:19
  And but you're right, it is it is a more toned down sets and
• 25:25
  palette then say things like Mark with Irani or, you know,
• 25:30
  attack of the Sabre men, where's a lot of bright, brighter sets
• 25:34
  and brighter colors. So it can be done.
• 25:36
  And but it kind of really doesn't take away from the
• 25:38
  magnificent of Collins called. By the time you get to the
• 25:42
  ultimate phone, you're doing those scenes in the dark.
• 25:48
  I don't think that code like is as much of an offence on the
• 25:53
  eyes because it's such an atmospheric setting that he's
• 25:55
  in. It's so dark.
• 25:57
  Can I ask you guys a question about I?
• 25:59
  I think there's something quite troubling in this story and that
• 26:02
  is that hurrah. There is a a ethnically diverse
• 26:06
  cast, however all of the people of colour are in subservient
• 26:13
  slave roles. Discuss.
• 26:16
  Yes, I mean, Matrona Carney is basically the leader of a
• 26:19
  whorehouse. She's a she's.
• 26:21
  A pimp, Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
• 26:23
  She's in charge of this, this band of women who are just there
• 26:25
  to serve the mentors in whichever way possible, you
• 26:30
  know, And then the forest Alphons are basically to be
• 26:35
  experimented on or to be guards. So it.
• 26:40
  Gets worse when Brian Blessed puts his samurai helmet on and
• 26:44
  he realizes in yellow face. Oh boy, you see?
• 26:48
  Well, you think, you know, you think about it, you know he's a
• 26:51
  very oriental. He is dressed as a samurai, you
• 26:54
  know, samurai, you know, robes and helmets, you know.
• 26:58
  So you know others are they're trying to, you know, you just
• 27:01
  eye. It for appropriation, yeah.
• 27:03
  It is so nice to see so many people of colour in a classic
• 27:07
  Doctor Who's story. It's so rare.
• 27:09
  Really good casting. It is why couldn't they have
• 27:12
  given them like the the roles in charge?
• 27:14
  I mean, it's just. I think it's just, I mean.
• 27:17
  They haven't thought that through.
• 27:19
  Part of the issue is, is you've got Matrona Carney doing two
• 27:22
  things. One, she's running the whole
• 27:24
  house, but then she's also cruised as assistant.
• 27:28
  So why? Why is the the the Madam?
• 27:35
  I suspect it's probably Philip Martin wrote them as two
• 27:38
  different characters. Or we'll we'll just merge Eric
• 27:42
  Zaver. Zeus.
• 27:43
  We'll just merge those because we haven't got the money for two
• 27:46
  females to be in this story. Yeah, I can.
• 27:48
  See, you know, scientists by day, House of pleasure by night.
• 27:51
  Night. Yeah, it just.
• 27:56
  There's another person of colour there, Dwarf.
• 27:58
  Dwarf experimented on and made to look really ugly.
• 28:03
  Yeah, it's just a bit icky. It is, it is, and it's something
• 28:07
  I'd certainly picked up on, you know, common and I was going to
• 28:11
  bring up later as well. And you know, it's another one
• 28:14
  of these, these stories that, you know, we, we talked about
• 28:18
  this when we're talking about planet of the spiders.
• 28:22
  And you know, and I said, you know, why doesn't planet of the
• 28:26
  spiders get the same stick that tons when Cheyenne gets?
• 28:31
  Why doesn't this story get the same stick as tons of wind chair
• 28:33
  and gets there's a, there's a or something like tomb of the
• 28:37
  Cybermen, because, you know, the issues that you've got with two
• 28:41
  women in two of the segment are front and centre with here with
• 28:47
  sills and chair bearers. You know they're exactly the
• 28:51
  same. Or the Crusade, or the Savages.
• 28:54
  Or there's I think you have to hold if you're going to hold
• 28:58
  classic who sort of account like that, you have to hold it all to
• 29:01
  account like. That yeah.
• 29:02
  But I think what we haven't got here is we haven't got Brian
• 29:07
  Blessed's eyes being pulled. We haven't got an egregious
• 29:12
  makeup like in towns of Wenchuiang where you are
• 29:15
  egregious. But yeah, this is yeah, this is
• 29:20
  I know it's it's the next level down, but we haven't and we
• 29:23
  haven't got characters in blackface.
• 29:25
  They are not black, they're actually people of colour, but
• 29:30
  the they're given those subservient roles.
• 29:33
  So we're we're moving on, but we're not moving on as fast as
• 29:37
  we should be. Guys, the the sorry are.
• 29:42
  We not moving on, as you know, as fast as we should be, or are
• 29:45
  we not moving on as fast as we would like?
• 29:48
  Oh, we're not moving on as fast as we would like.
• 29:50
  This is very much. Down the line 19. 86.
• 29:53
  If if we went. This is exactly what you see in
• 29:55
  1986 it. Basically went back to 1986 you
• 29:58
  know if we were making podcasts in 1986 would we be certainly
• 30:01
  are going up bloody doctor whom and it's gone walk look at this
• 30:05
  look at all the. I don't think we, but even there
• 30:10
  is. Is this actually, you know, for
• 30:12
  its time doing a good job or are we just kind of been a bit, we
• 30:18
  applying a bit of relativism that we shouldn't?
• 30:19
  Be from what I remember at the time it wasn't even commented on
• 30:24
  mate so it just sort of passed by and no one noticed at the
• 30:30
  time. I might be wrong.
• 30:31
  So I don't think any of this was coming, not even talons, for a
• 30:34
  long, long time. And then somebody did, and then
• 30:39
  everybody saw it, started looking when we all got better
• 30:42
  at spotting that sort of thing. If this had been made now, Jesus
• 30:45
  Christ, yes. But nowadays you have an all
• 30:48
  white cast in a Doctor Who episode and it's not bubble and
• 30:51
  it's got something to say, you know?
• 30:53
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 30:55
  I was just going to say a second ago, Hooray to the designer for
• 30:59
  discovering strobe lights, because that is a genius.
• 31:02
  In the domino, isn't it? It it is just so atmospheric and
• 31:06
  we get it. It's used brilliantly in the
• 31:08
  Cliff Agra to this episode. But also there was a scene in
• 31:12
  Matrona Carneys House of Pleasure there for a second,
• 31:15
  which had like with flames crackling in the background.
• 31:18
  And it was, it was beautifully lit in this sort of suffused
• 31:22
  pink with dry ice everywhere in tight shorts.
• 31:25
  I don't know. There is just a visual
• 31:27
  sumptuousness to this that I really admire.
• 31:30
  What did I never bring him back? Who knows, I just think as well
• 31:36
  Ron Jones has gotten better at the edits as well.
• 31:40
  Because is it, Is it this episode where she's changed to
• 31:43
  the rocks, or is it the next one?
• 31:44
  That's the next one. Or is this one No, it's.
• 31:47
  This one isn't it because they have their last scene at the
• 31:50
  start of episode episode 3. Wait till you get to that car in
• 31:55
  right. It will happen so quickly.
• 31:57
  I'll say it now, but it's straight into a wave slashing at
• 32:01
  Nicola Bryan against that rock, right?
• 32:03
  And it's like a slap round the face to her because she screams.
• 32:06
  It's really dramatic. I don't.
• 32:08
  I just think Ron Jones gave us time flight, for fuck's sake,
• 32:12
  and then he gave us this. I think he's learned some
• 32:14
  lessons. I mean, I defy anyone to give us
• 32:17
  something decent out of time flight.
• 32:23
  You know you can. You can't Polish a turd.
• 32:31
  Oh, were you thinking of the Dominator Sai or just me?
• 32:43
  Of course, the robots. Fifth one, arrest her.
• 32:47
  She must be interrogated thoroughly.
• 32:50
  Take her. To the Rock of Sorrows.
• 32:53
  Has Terry Nation been in here somewhere?
• 32:55
  Another Collin Zoom. Did you see?
• 32:57
  They're looking imperious. Boy, he must have loved it.
• 33:01
  He's. Worked it out here.
• 33:04
  But he's casting, isn't he? He's just desperate for an
• 33:06
  explanation that isn't I was nasty.
• 33:09
  Never ploy, he goes. Yes.
• 33:12
  Yeah, it came to takes us back to.
• 33:15
  Here we go. Watch this.
• 33:16
  Watch how straight into that wave.
• 33:20
  That's horrible. That's very violent.
• 33:22
  Really. I do not I I really did not like
• 33:26
  this. No.
• 33:28
  I and I still don't like it. Now I think it's like the water.
• 33:33
  No. Why don't you just come with me
• 33:35
  down to the beach one day with some chains and I might change
• 33:38
  your mind on that. And there's something evil in
• 33:42
  the war. I do love it when I get this.
• 33:46
  Moment where where we think, oh, oh, this is it, this is the
• 33:51
  doctor. And then he.
• 33:53
  Yeah, it's horrible. It's how.
• 33:55
  He toys it with. Her.
• 33:57
  Yeah, it's, it's really. Weird, he says.
• 34:00
  I'm your friend, you know that. And then he goes yes, by
• 34:03
  revealing to me who the Alphons are and the Resistance members.
• 34:07
  And as we said, Joe, when we did The Twin Dilemma, because Nicola
• 34:11
  Bryan is so good. Yeah.
• 34:15
  It feels really awful, absolutely awful, because she's
• 34:20
  playing it so real and she's so distressed by this and.
• 34:24
  It even worse, it cuts to Seal laughing his head off watching
• 34:27
  the Alfie like we are in torture porn terror.
• 34:30
  We're in a snuff movie now. Yes, and it's it's that callback
• 34:33
  to vengeance of Barros that where he he says something
• 34:36
  interesting about I wish we were selling this again or whatever.
• 34:39
  This takes me back. It takes.
• 34:42
  Me back to invasion of time where you've got Tom Baker who
• 34:50
  all of a sudden goes, you know, batshit and unpredictable and
• 34:57
  you know, a dangerous, unlikeable Dr. And I think the
• 35:01
  difference here is, you know, that was unexpected.
• 35:05
  That was a big counter change for the 4th doctor.
• 35:08
  When you see the 6th doctor doing this, having, you know,
• 35:12
  come off the back of season 22 and then how do you hiatus and
• 35:15
  then come in and watching this and haven't had mysterious
• 35:19
  planet where they're getting on much better to then come back to
• 35:22
  this. It's kind of oh crap.
• 35:24
  It is badly timed, isn't it? Yeah, because the rest of the
• 35:27
  season. Mysterious play at Vervo, his
• 35:29
  ultimate foe. He's gorgeous, so they could
• 35:32
  have said that. Well, look, we've we've given
• 35:34
  you a really lovely doctor. No, wait, hang on.
• 35:36
  He's chaining those sort of rocks in this one.
• 35:39
  Anyhow, may we continue? I got tired of these constant
• 35:43
  interruptions. Well, you're going to be
• 35:45
  disappointed then. I do.
• 35:47
  Says the Inquisitor, calling out the the courtroom scenes there.
• 35:50
  Yes. You know, what's unbelievable is
• 35:52
  that she was genuinely chained up to that because I watched the
• 35:56
  location footage and she says at one point, I've got a Power Pack
• 36:00
  here. The waves are nearly at the.
• 36:01
  I'm going to be electrocuted. Can we hurry this up?
• 36:04
  They didn't have to chain up the actress in order to do the
• 36:06
  scene. Oh, dear.
• 36:09
  The 80s. What I find unbelievable is that
• 36:13
  this is the last scene between Perry and the doctor.
• 36:15
  Yeah. Where?
• 36:16
  She says look, look, what's? Happened to you?
• 36:19
  Yeah. Look what you Yeah.
• 36:21
  Why do you hate me? And they never get a moment
• 36:24
  again after this. Oh, they.
• 36:25
  Never get and that's. It's either an oversight or that
• 36:29
  is a dramatic point to leave the 2 characters on.
• 36:33
  I I think with hindsight it's a dramatic point to leave these
• 36:38
  characters on that then Big Finish or the New Adventures or
• 36:42
  whatever can go back and repair. Watch this.
• 36:47
  Zoom on Colin's face, lit up by the strobe line.
• 36:52
  That's the moment. That's such a yeah.
• 36:54
  It's so well timed, but yeah, I think. 5:00 to 1:00.
• 36:59
  Now, yeah, 5:00 to 1:00. But yeah, I think leaving their
• 37:03
  relationship at that moment and never seeing them repair it, I
• 37:08
  think is is really bold. It's absolutely horrible.
• 37:13
  I mean, it's where their relationship starts in Twin
• 37:15
  Dilemma and where it ends here. And it's no redemption.
• 37:20
  It's not, it's not a redemption arc at all, which it would be
• 37:23
  now. It's.
• 37:24
  Kind of miserable, wouldn't it? Yeah, yeah.
• 37:26
  And I think. I think what you would get now
• 37:29
  is it would be drawn attention to a lot more because, you know,
• 37:34
  until you've kind of stopped and think about it.
• 37:36
  Oh, shit. Yeah, Actually that's, you know,
• 37:40
  this is Part 2. This is the end of Part 2.
• 37:42
  We've got another two episodes to go.
• 37:43
  You're not. You wouldn't expect the Doctor
• 37:45
  and Perry never to cross paths again in those two episodes.
• 37:47
  It's not until someone kind of points it out and goes, well,
• 37:50
  you know what, 2 episodes ago was the last time they actually
• 37:53
  spoke to each of that and the hearts crosswords.
• 37:54
  You know, if this was being made now, you can guarantee that
• 37:58
  Rusty would have movie gold dripping all over it.
• 38:01
  And you know. Signposting it.
• 38:04
  It would be. Something you realize in
• 38:06
  hindsight, isn't it? And go, Oh my God.
• 38:10
  But I suppose that is the point of episode 4, right?
• 38:12
  Or episode 8 is he is trying to get to her and then he's pulled
• 38:16
  away. Yes, so we know that he wants to
• 38:19
  put it right, but he can't. It's pretty incredible.
• 38:24
  Yeah. I mean, Joe, recently you've
• 38:26
  read Bad Therapy, haven't you? Where she comes.
• 38:28
  Yeah. And I remember reading that in
• 38:31
  what was that the end of 96, start of 97 wasn't it when that
• 38:36
  came out and thinking this is something that needed to happen?
• 38:40
  Well, the first thing she does, he goes hello Perry.
• 38:43
  And then she slaps around the face.
• 38:46
  Probably. Absolutely deserves it.
• 38:49
  I mean, there's several, There's a Big Finish audio called The
• 38:52
  Widows Assassin where they meet up again.
• 38:54
  So there's several versions of this story where Perry meets up
• 38:57
  with the doctor again, and in every single one she's pissed
• 39:02
  with him. And they work.
• 39:03
  They work through it. Although in The Widow's
• 39:06
  Assassin. Are any of you going to listen
• 39:07
  to that? Not soon.
• 39:10
  There's a wonderful twist at the end of episode 2 when it turns
• 39:13
  out that Lord Keith is still inside her brain and comes out.
• 39:18
  She does the voice all over again.
• 39:20
  It's wonderful. We can just redact that bit in
• 39:23
  there, everyone that's listening.
• 39:26
  I mean, I would probably say with my more episode, the first
• 39:30
  episode is a very vivid scene setter and the last episode is
• 39:35
  one of those wonderfully race to the climax stories you get every
• 39:40
  now and again. It's really exciting.
• 39:42
  And the middle 2 episodes, there's great stuff in it.
• 39:45
  There's wonderful 200 scenes, there's great comedy in it and
• 39:48
  all of that. It is essentially a lot of sort
• 39:50
  of mucky torture and running around.
• 39:55
  Yeah, and next, next week it's it's a medical drama as well.
• 40:02
  That's right, you'll not die on me fish face.