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Tesla Launches Roadster at SpaceX Site in Latest Merger Hint · Bloomberg Intelligence

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  Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios.
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  Speaker 2: Podcasts. Radio.
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  Speaker 3: News.
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  Speaker 4: You're listening to the Bloomberg Intelligence Podcast. Catch us live
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  Speaker 4: weekdays at 10 a.m. Eastern on Apple CarPlay and Android
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  Speaker 4: you get your podcasts or watch us live on YouTube.
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  Speaker 2: All right.
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  Speaker 5: Well, in any case, let's talk about cars because Tesla
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  Speaker 5: finally rolled out its long-delayed Roadster sports car. Actually, that's
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  Speaker 5: not exactly accurate. It launched the vehicle into the sky
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  Speaker 5: because this is Tesla, this is Elon Musk, and he's
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  Speaker 5: nothing but a showman.
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  Speaker 2: Exactly.
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  Speaker 5: David Welch is our Detroit bureau chief, and he joins
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  Speaker 5: us now for more on this. So, obviously, when the
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  Speaker 5: Roadster actually launches, it's not going to be capable of
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  Speaker 5: being launched into the sky. What was the purpose of
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  Speaker 5: I don't know, introducing the car in this way. What's
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  Speaker 5: the message Tesla wanted to send, David?
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  Speaker 6: Look, Elon Musk is great at feeding a narrative. And
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  Speaker 6: one of them is, could SpaceX and Tesla merge up?
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  Speaker 6: And I think this is sort of a literal version
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  Speaker 6: of what one could possibly see if the two companies merged.
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  Speaker 6: I don't think they would actually make a flying car.
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  Speaker 6: I think if you were to talk to a lot
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  Speaker 6: of aerospace and aeronautic engineers, a car shape would not
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  Speaker 6: be what you would design for something that's going to fly.
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  Speaker 6: But look, that was a pretty impressive display of this
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  Speaker 6: vehicle taking off and landing with rockets. There'd be too
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  Speaker 6: many safety issues, I think, with a car that, one,
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  Speaker 6: drives that fast, and two, is going to fly, and
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  Speaker 6: a lot of regulatory stuff around it. So I wouldn't
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  Speaker 6: look at this literally. I think it's more a story
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  Speaker 6: of what you could have in terms of technology sharing
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  Speaker 6: if Tesla and SpaceX were to merge. And it's also
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  Speaker 6: just to get a lot of hype for this Roadster
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  Speaker 6: that's going to go into production in a couple of years.
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  Speaker 6: The Roadster was the first vehicle Tesla sold a long
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  Speaker 6: time ago, and it was basically a Lotus Elise with
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  Speaker 6: a Tesla electric drivetrain in there. This is a purpose-built
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  Speaker 6: pretty cool-looking roadster that won't even sell in big numbers
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  Speaker 6: but could generate a lot of excitement for the Tesla brand,
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  Speaker 6: which has a pretty limited product lineup right now, and
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  Speaker 6: sales are kind of bumping along. So it's generating excitement
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  Speaker 6: about Tesla's vehicles, but also potential for sharing mergers, that
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  Speaker 6: sort of thing within Elon's empire of companies.
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  Speaker 7: Hey, David, I just got back from some time over
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  Speaker 7: in Paris, and boy, A lot of electric cars over there,
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  Speaker 7: a lot of electric taxis. Got in a couple of
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  Speaker 7: the BYD cars for the first time ever. Those were
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  Speaker 7: pretty awesome.
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  Speaker 1: Like lots of screens all over the place, right?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 7: I mean, boy, what's the feeling in Detroit these days
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  Speaker 7: as to their EV strategy? What's kind of the current
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  Speaker 7: thinking in your world?
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  Speaker 6: It's pretty tough for the Detroit companies with EVs because
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  Speaker 6: they are– clearly strongest, get most of their profits from
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  Speaker 6: the U.S. market. Even with a little bit of a
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  Speaker 6: bounce of EV sales in the third quarter, still 5%
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  Speaker 6: to 6% of the market. You're starting to see some
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  Speaker 6: discounting out there of the EVs that are for sale
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  Speaker 6: in the U.S. So the EVs you're seeing being developed
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  Speaker 6: are mostly for China, for the European market where regulations
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  Speaker 6: and incentives are still keeping sales going. Here it's just
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  Speaker 6: the opposite. The Trump administration's gotten rid of the requirements
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  Speaker 6: that pushed automakers to develop them and the sales incentives
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  Speaker 6: that helped consumers buy them. So they're kind of in
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  Speaker 6: this holding pattern where they know they have to keep
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  Speaker 6: developing EV technology for the long-term future. It just doesn't
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  Speaker 6: sell in the market where they make the most money.
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  Speaker 6: So you're looking at engineering and development that's just not
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  Speaker 6: going to generate a return for a while. And I
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  Speaker 6: think that's pretty frustrating for them because they know they
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  Speaker 6: have to spend it, but There's no ROI on it
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  Speaker 6: in their biggest market.
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  Speaker 7: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: So they don't like spending it.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: I get that.
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  Speaker 5: But at the same time, if you live in California
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  Speaker 5: and a gallon of gas costs you almost $ 7, you're
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  Speaker 5: looking at EVs with a new eye. So for any
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  Speaker 5: consumer that is intent on buying an EV, what are
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  Speaker 5: their options? What's available out there?
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  Speaker 6: There are a lot of EVs out there. General Motors
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  Speaker 6: still has a dozen EVs on the market. They have
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  Speaker 6: not canceled those. You've got the Tesla models. Hyundai has
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  Speaker 6: a couple of them, of course. Most companies actually do
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  Speaker 6: have a few models out there. So there is variety
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  Speaker 6: in the market in the big segments where most consumers shop,
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  Speaker 6: which is crossover SUVs and luxury SUVs that are electric.
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  Speaker 6: You do have the Tesla models, of course. And But
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  Speaker 6: the vehicles that are there just don't sell all that well.
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  Speaker 6: I think how people are reacting to gasoline prices in
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  Speaker 6: the U.S. is they're buying hybrids, which is why I've
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  Speaker 6: seen Toyota and Hyundai sales do so well. Not even
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  Speaker 6: plug-in hybrids, just your basic hybrid that doesn't require any charging.
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  Speaker 6: So if you're on a road trip, you're getting your
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  Speaker 6: gas mileage, but you're not really worried about having to
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  Speaker 6: stop someplace for half an hour to top up.
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  Speaker 4: Right.
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  Speaker 6: That's how Americans are looking at this.
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  Speaker 7: Yeah, we got the number four sibling, the hybrid.
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  Speaker 2: Awesome. I mean, it's just awesome technology.
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  Speaker 5: And the number four sibling is in California where it
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  Speaker 5: matters the most.
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  Speaker 2: Yes.
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  Speaker 1: So what, they're.
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  Speaker 5: Getting like 40 miles a gallon, 50 miles per gallon?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know.
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  Speaker 7: I'm not paying for it, so I'm not paying for
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  Speaker 7: the gas. I paid for the lease, so.
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  Speaker 1: So you paid for it in some way.
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  Speaker 7: In some way.
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  Speaker 2: It always happens.
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  Speaker 7: David, Tesla's going to report earnings coming up, I guess,
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  Speaker 7: the 21st here. What do people want to hear from
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  Speaker 7: Elon about this company these days, do you think?
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  Speaker 6: I think you might see some better numbers because they
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  Speaker 6: did surprise on the upside with their third quarter vehicle sales.
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  Speaker 6: And analysts are basically forecasting better. Finally, some growth in
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  Speaker 6: Tesla's total vehicle sales after a couple years of decline.
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  Speaker 6: So on the basic operations of the company, you'll see that.
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  Speaker 6: I think investors that were going to be more interested
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  Speaker 6: in the robo-taxi business, how that's being rolled out, how
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  Speaker 6: that's coming, because that's really Elon's big play here is
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  Speaker 6: the cyber cab and whether or not that can start
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  Speaker 6: to get into many cities and compete with Waymo, which
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  Speaker 6: has been rolling out city by city for over a
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  Speaker 6: year now.
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  Speaker 5: So no indication that we're going to get any kind
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  Speaker 5: of Tesla-SpaceX merger that you kind of referenced at the
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  Speaker 5: top of our conversation.
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  Speaker 6: I doubt he would announce it there. There's a lot
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  Speaker 6: of speculation in analyst reports that we're going to see
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  Speaker 6: it sometime soon and that investors are widely expecting it.
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  Speaker 6: Elon's done this before when they had SolarCity many years
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  Speaker 6: ago and the company was struggling to make any money
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  Speaker 6: and to get investor interest. It was basically, you know,
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  Speaker 6: folded into Tesla because Tesla at the time had unlimited
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  Speaker 6: ability to raise funds. But that hasn't gone anywhere. Tesla's
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  Speaker 6: got a business with much better staying power than the
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  Speaker 6: solar business did. But could it use an injection like
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  Speaker 6: being folded into SpaceX? Perhaps yes.
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  Speaker 1: Stay with us.
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  Speaker 4: More from Bloomberg Intelligence coming up after this. You're listening
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  Speaker 4: to the Bloomberg Intelligence Podcast. Catch us live weekdays at
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  Speaker 4: 10 a.m. Eastern on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with
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  Speaker 4: the Bloomberg Business App. Listen on demand wherever you get
• 7:23
  Speaker 4: your podcasts or watch us live on YouTube.
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  Speaker 7: I guess we all know that Apple is coming out
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  Speaker 7: with a new phone. I guess it's a foldable phone.
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  Speaker 7: iPhone Duo, I guess, is its brand name. And apparently
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  Speaker 7: there's pre-orders pretty darn strong here. So Let's break it down,
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  Speaker 7: see what it means for our good friends at Apple.
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  Speaker 7: Anurag Rana, Senior Technology Analyst for Bloomberg Intelligence, joins us
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  Speaker 7: from Chicago. Anurag, talk to us about what we know
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  Speaker 7: about maybe some of the early demand for this new
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  Speaker 7: foldable phone from Apple.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks.
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  Speaker 3: So about a week ago, we got some news from
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  Speaker 3: Asia that iPhone 18 orders are a bit light and
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  Speaker 3: they are telling their component makers to hold back on that.
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  Speaker 3: And one of our first reactions was that, listen, it's
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  Speaker 3: possible that the Pro and the Pro Max model customers,
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  Speaker 3: which are the more affluent customers, may be just waiting
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  Speaker 3: for this foldable.
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  Speaker 2: And frankly speaking, this morning was a big surprise for us.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, I logged in exactly at the time when
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  Speaker 3: the orders were coming. And I think I was within
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  Speaker 3: the first three, four minutes. And the delivery time for
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  Speaker 3: my phone is December 1st. But within, I would say,
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  Speaker 3: 15 minutes, it went up to January of next year.
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  Speaker 3: So very strong demand right now. This basically shows that
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  Speaker 3: all the stuff about consumer weakness or memory prices is
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  Speaker 3: not making any dent to the ultra high-end buyer for
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  Speaker 3: the iPhone.
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  Speaker 7: I'm sure, I don't know, you have some special phone
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  Speaker 7: number to dial in to get at the head of
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  Speaker 7: the line, given who you are, that's for sure. Talk
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  Speaker 7: to us about what's, what do you guys, what's the
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  Speaker 7: street think, how important this phone will be here? It's
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  Speaker 7: kind of a big price tag, like close to $ 2, 000.
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  Speaker 7: So is this going to impact their top line?
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  Speaker 2: Oh, it should impact their top line by a big amount.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, before we haven't done our numbers for the next,
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  Speaker 3: but we were higher than most people out there with
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  Speaker 3: about 14 million phones for this particular device that is
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  Speaker 3: about 28 billion in sales for next year. We'll have
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  Speaker 3: to go out and do the math to see how
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  Speaker 3: much could they do. But frankly speaking, think about it
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  Speaker 3: this way. For the last nine years, Samsung has had
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  Speaker 3: a foldable in the market. Apple decided not to do
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  Speaker 3: one because they wanted to make sure that there is
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  Speaker 3: technology out there to ensure that when you open the
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  Speaker 3: foldable phone, that there is no crease in the middle.
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  Speaker 2: And they decided to wait that long.
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  Speaker 3: The first form factor change in years, because if you
• 9:44
  Speaker 3: look at 17, 18, they all look pretty much alike.
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  Speaker 3: So a completely different viewpoint. And we've always said Apple
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  Speaker 3: is a luxury brand. It's not so much a consumer
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  Speaker 3: device company. So when you look at it from that
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  Speaker 3: point of view, we see this to be one of
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  Speaker 3: the bigger hits for the company that we're going to
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  Speaker 3: see over the next 12 months.
• 10:03
  Speaker 7: Is this going to bring people, who's going to come
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  Speaker 7: to this phone? Are these going to be existing iPhone
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  Speaker 7: users that just want a new form factor or are
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  Speaker 7: they going to be taking from other foldable phones that
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  Speaker 7: are out there in the market? Where are these 14
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  Speaker 7: million units going to come from?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, we think it's just a shift from Pro Max
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  Speaker 3: or the Pro or the Pro Max. These are the
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  Speaker 3: people who are already buying a $ 1, 300 phone or a
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  Speaker 3: $ 1, 400 phone, depending on what skew it is. They are
• 10:28
  Speaker 3: the ones who is going to transfer. You know, you're
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  Speaker 3: really not going to see somebody who uses a higher
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  Speaker 3: end Galaxy to move over to Apple because this is
• 10:35
  Speaker 3: not a compelling reason for them. I mean, they live
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  Speaker 3: in whatever ecosystem you are on the higher end, you're
• 10:40
  Speaker 3: most likely going to stay there.
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  Speaker 2: You're not going to convince, you know, Like our.
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  Speaker 3: Boss, he's not going to change his Galaxy or Android
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  Speaker 3: device to go into an Apple.
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  Speaker 2: It's not going to happen.
• 10:50
  Speaker 3: But it's the current existing user where you're going to
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  Speaker 3: see the transfer.
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  Speaker 2: All right.
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  Speaker 7: What's the current just Apple call out there on global
• 10:59
  Speaker 7: Wall Street here? What's the focus these days? What's the
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  Speaker 7: next seminal event that's going to change how people think
• 11:05
  Speaker 7: about this story?
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: I think a lot of that has already been played out.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, the new Siri launch, they're using Google's models
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  Speaker 3: to take care of that. Stock's at 36 times earnings.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, if you look at it compared to Microsoft,
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  Speaker 3: which is at 23 or Amazon at 20, I think
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  Speaker 3: a lot of what we are talking today, especially even
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  Speaker 3: with the demand, I mean, stock would have been up
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  Speaker 3: far more than just 1% if we would have any
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: other environment. But I think the valuation takes care of
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  Speaker 3: a lot of the excitement there.
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  Speaker 2: Of what's happening with Apple.
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  Speaker 7: Yep, stock is up 27% year-to-date. You mentioned Microsoft. That's
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  Speaker 7: another name you follow, Anurag. You followed it for a
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  Speaker 7: long time. What's the call on that stock these days?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, we published a report today that basically says that, listen,
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  Speaker 3: we understand what's happening in the market when it comes
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  Speaker 3: to AI slowdown fears, and we completely get it for
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  Speaker 3: the vendors that are extremely levered in the market. But
• 11:59
  Speaker 3: when you look at the top two vendors, whether it's
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  Speaker 3: Microsoft or Amazon, we think they're very well positioned, not
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  Speaker 3: just for the next two quarters, but going into 27,
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: because they have a massive backlog on their balance sheets.
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  Speaker 3: They have the capital to make sure that there is
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  Speaker 3: no funding problems. And to be honest, if anything, if
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: there is a slowdown in buildup because of elections or
• 12:20
  Speaker 3: any reason, I don't mind that for either Microsoft or
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  Speaker 3: Amazon because it will give them a chance to collect
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  Speaker 3: more of that CapEx that they're spending. Let's say it
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  Speaker 3: comes back a little bit and they can accumulate that
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: for the year after.
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  Speaker 7: What is the CapEx kind of outlook here from Microsoft?
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  Speaker 7: Are they going to have to continue to ramp up
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  Speaker 7: big time?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, but at least for this year and next year,
• 12:42
  Speaker 3: I think there's going to be very few changes. But
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  Speaker 3: the big question is what happens in 28? Because if
• 12:47
  Speaker 3: you look at some of the AI infrastructure play, which
• 12:50
  Speaker 3: is either the memory stocks or the chip stocks, people
• 12:53
  Speaker 3: anticipate that machine or the, you could say, the train
• 12:56
  Speaker 3: to continue to go upwards for many years to come.
• 12:59
  Speaker 3: I think that's being questioned in the last one week,
• 13:02
  Speaker 3: whether that's going to happen or not. And partially the
• 13:04
  Speaker 3: sell-off that you see in the market is driven by that.
• 13:07
  Speaker 3: But when we look at Microsoft's backlog or Amazon's backlog,
• 13:11
  Speaker 3: I don't see any reason for them to slow down
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  Speaker 3: their spending, at least for the end of next year.
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  Speaker 2: And then we'll see what happens in 28.
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: Stay with us. More from Bloomberg Intelligence coming up after this.
• 13:26
  Speaker 4: You're listening to the Bloomberg Intelligence Podcast.
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: Catch us live weekdays at 10 a.m.
• 13:31
  Speaker 4: Eastern on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg
• 13:34
  Speaker 4: Business App. Listen on demand wherever you get your podcasts
• 13:37
  Speaker 4: or watch us live on YouTube.
• 13:40
  Speaker 5: So, Paul, before you went away, CoreWeave was fine. I mean,
• 13:44
  Speaker 5: it wasn't in any kind of distress mode.
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: Now it is.
• 13:48
  Speaker 7: Which means we have to talk to like the credit
• 13:50
  Speaker 7: guys now.
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 13:51
  Speaker 7: Which you know how much I enjoy talking to credit analysts,
• 13:53
  Speaker 7: you know, so. Let's get right to it. We can
• 13:55
  Speaker 7: do that. Talk about CoreWeave and what's going on in
• 13:58
  Speaker 7: the AI trade and how the bond market, which has
• 14:00
  Speaker 7: been such a big supplier of capital, is dealing with
• 14:03
  Speaker 7: that now. Rob Schiffman, Senior Tech Credit Analyst for Bloomberg Intelligence. Rob,
• 14:08
  Speaker 7: talk to us about CoreWeave from a credit investor's perspective.
• 14:11
  Speaker 7: Is this company over-levered?
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: Are they okay?
• 14:14
  Speaker 7: Is the market missing something? How do you approach it?
• 14:17
  Speaker 8: Well, CoreWeave is trading stress today. And I would say
• 14:20
  Speaker 8: my level of stress is also a little bit higher
• 14:22
  Speaker 8: because The market sometimes doesn't act so rationally. One day
• 14:26
  Speaker 8: as an analyst, you come in, you look like you're
• 14:28
  Speaker 8: a genius, and the next day you look like you
• 14:29
  Speaker 8: have no idea what you're talking about. And people generally
• 14:32
  Speaker 8: just remember the days you don't know what you're talking about.
• 14:35
  Speaker 8: And I think the move in CoreWeave has a lot
• 14:37
  Speaker 8: to do with sentiment and nothing to really do with fundamentals.
• 14:40
  Speaker 8: The stock sell-off, the bond sell-off wasn't on any real news.
• 14:44
  Speaker 8: They didn't announce worse earnings. They didn't announce CapEx is
• 14:47
  Speaker 8: going higher. They didn't announce that they weren't able to
• 14:50
  Speaker 8: raise money in the markets. It's just a sort of
• 14:53
  Speaker 8: a confidence issue. The reality is when you start thinking
• 14:56
  Speaker 8: about stress, you know, a lot of people have talked
• 14:58
  Speaker 8: about core weave bonds trading in the 80s or below
• 15:02
  Speaker 8: 80 cents on the dollar. I tell you to go
• 15:04
  Speaker 8: look at the Bloomberg Terminal and see where some Microsoft
• 15:06
  Speaker 8: long bonds are trading. AAA rated. No one's really worried
• 15:09
  Speaker 8: about them. They trade 50 cents on the dollar. So
• 15:11
  Speaker 8: there's a lot to do with what's going on with rates.
• 15:13
  Speaker 8: Bad CPI and PPI prints worry people about inflation, the
• 15:17
  Speaker 8: cost of borrowing for high yield names in particular, and
• 15:20
  Speaker 8: the ones that need to borrow the most like core
• 15:21
  Speaker 8: weaves are being stressed because people are fearful of what
• 15:25
  Speaker 8: the markets could look like in terms of capital access
• 15:28
  Speaker 8: in the future, but not necessarily something that's happened today.
• 15:31
  Speaker 8: And I think if you listen to what Jensen said yesterday,
• 15:35
  Speaker 8: that CourtWeave is pretty well positioned. Their cost of capital
• 15:37
  Speaker 8: is actually lower because they've been able to borrow a
• 15:40
  Speaker 8: whole bunch of secure debt. at single-digit rates. And I
• 15:43
  Speaker 8: think over time, listen, this AI trade fear, it's not
• 15:47
  Speaker 8: going away anytime soon. This is going to take a
• 15:49
  Speaker 8: few years to play out. And we're going to have
• 15:51
  Speaker 8: days where the markets are jittery. We're going to have
• 15:53
  Speaker 8: weeks where the markets are jittery, maybe even months. And
• 15:57
  Speaker 8: then we'll see turnarounds. I don't think people should be
• 15:59
  Speaker 8: overly concerned about CoreWeave. But in particular, if you just
• 16:02
  Speaker 8: think about this space, it's dominated by what we call
• 16:06
  Speaker 8: the hyperscalers, which are AA and AAA-rated credits that that
• 16:10
  Speaker 8: have access to unlimited amounts of capital. And that is
• 16:14
  Speaker 8: not going away. And that means this whole AI trade
• 16:17
  Speaker 8: is not going away.
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 16:18
  Speaker 5: Jensen Huang, by the way, CEO of NVIDIA, which is
• 16:21
  Speaker 5: a CoreWeave shareholder and supplier.
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: So it all is kind of interconnected.
• 16:25
  Speaker 5: Having said all of that, and you're looking at it
• 16:26
  Speaker 5: from a credit point of view, there was an analyst,
• 16:30
  Speaker 5: Gil Loria, Dave Davidson, who said that he could see
• 16:33
  Speaker 5: the stock going to zero. Is the stock price driving
• 16:36
  Speaker 5: CoreWeave's debt or is CoreWeave's debt making people question the stock?
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: What's the catalyst?
• 16:42
  Speaker 8: Yeah, I hate to, you know, I say that there's
• 16:45
  Speaker 8: not going to be an AI bubble burst, but I'll
• 16:46
  Speaker 8: burst everybody's bubble. Any stock could go to zero, right?
• 16:50
  Speaker 8: That's happened before. So we covered a lot of stocks
• 16:52
  Speaker 8: that went to. So listen, that's great fear mongering. I
• 16:57
  Speaker 8: think like those sort of headlines get attention and get
• 17:00
  Speaker 8: mentions on the radio. I think that's wildly unrealistic where
• 17:04
  Speaker 8: we've plays a huge part in the whole AI ecosystem
• 17:08
  Speaker 8: as one of the largest neoclouds, both public and private.
• 17:13
  Speaker 8: I think they have a lot of big friends. We
• 17:15
  Speaker 8: wrote a note saying that one of the largest shareholders
• 17:18
  Speaker 8: is NVIDIA. They own 10% of the stock. They also
• 17:22
  Speaker 8: have some of their biggest partners. The ones that they
• 17:24
  Speaker 8: have the largest contracts with are Meta and Microsoft. So
• 17:27
  Speaker 8: there's a lot of money that I think can come
• 17:29
  Speaker 8: Corweave's way. And quite frankly, there's lots of different ways
• 17:33
  Speaker 8: to get access to capital. It's not just the unsecured market.
• 17:35
  Speaker 8: So yeah, bonds are trading in and around 15%. We're
• 17:38
  Speaker 8: actually in the 14% range this morning. But they could
• 17:42
  Speaker 8: borrow unsecured. They can borrow secured. They could do private
• 17:46
  Speaker 8: chip deals. They could do data center lease deals. I
• 17:49
  Speaker 8: think the access to capital for them is going to
• 17:51
  Speaker 8: remain abundant. It's not the same as for AA or
• 17:54
  Speaker 8: AAA rated name, which is unlimited and the cost doesn't
• 17:56
  Speaker 8: actually matter. But I think Corey is going to have
• 18:00
  Speaker 8: a lot of different ways to play this. And thinking
• 18:03
  Speaker 8: about that going to zero as a credit guy, I
• 18:06
  Speaker 8: know the bonds are not going to go to zero,
• 18:08
  Speaker 8: certainly the secured bonds. But I think that's just hyperbole
• 18:12
  Speaker 8: to try to get attention.
• 18:14
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