Latest / Saving the World From Bad Ideas / Bad Idea #7 "We Can't co-exist with wolves" with Luigi Boitani

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Bad Idea #7 "We Can't co-exist with wolves" with Luigi Boitani · Saving the World From Bad Ideas

0:00
The best definition of a wolf habitat it's anywhere where
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there is anything to eat from garbage to a moose and where the
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animal is not shot. Be serious and be honest to
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yourself is because you like them and you love so the the
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ethical reason to have a wolves back in my opinion is much much
0:21
stronger than an ecological reason.
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There is a book called Yellowstone Wolves.
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It's one of the most beautiful book on wolves ever written.
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We will find a chapter about this story of the ecosystem
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impact and roles and all that and that.
0:36
The authors say, well, we don't really know what's going on.
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Welcome to saving the world from bad ideas.
0:45
I'm Mark Linus, and I've had a few bad ideas in my time.
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I used to go out in the night time to destroy GMO crops, and I
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also opposed nuclear power. But then when I looked at the
0:54
science, I found I got it wrong. Oops.
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I've learned the hard way that none of us are right all the
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time. So now I'm here to challenge the
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assumptions that we all too often take for granted because
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the future depends on us getting it right.
1:06
Luigi Boitani, welcome to the podcast.
1:09
The theme that we always have is saving the world from bad ideas.
1:14
And I thought that the as a sort of as an expert on large
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carnivores, I thought the bad idea you could be saving the
1:20
world from is that wolves and humans can't coexist, which is a
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very sort of widely held view. And I'd hope.
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I'm hoping you'll take us through why that's wrong,
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assuming you you think that it is wrong.
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But just tell us a bit about, you know, the work you've done
1:36
through your career with with wolves and tell us a bit about,
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you know, what the situation is with wolves in in Europe and
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North America. How many there are, you know,
1:46
whether they're increasing, decreasing and they're kind of
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broader conservation status? Well, that's a lot of questions.
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Well, I started being interested in wolves in 1971 when I did my
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first estimate of wolf population in Italy and that at
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that time there were very few wolves left.
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We came up with an estimate over about a hundred, 150 animals.
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Only in the beginning that was supposed to be a short term
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consultancy, just a couple of months or three months for
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estimating this wolves and it turned out to be a life job.
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I never stopped. I keep working on wolves.
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I'm chairing the Large Carnivore Initiative for Europe, which is
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a group of experts from of the Species Survival Commission of
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the IUCN International Union for Conservation of Nature.
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And with this group of 5057 expert, we try to monitor the
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status and the problems of wolf and wolf coexistence with humans
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in Europe. Whatever I'm going to say is
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actually the product of many years of collaboration among
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this group of experts. We enjoy a good and privileged
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relationship with the European Commission in terms of providing
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them with data, technical data, technical information, whatever
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support is needed to implement a management plan in in Europe.
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I've been working a little bit on walls and somewhere else and
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then North America, but mostly as a helper, let's say so to
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some of my friends and colleagues working walls there.
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The situation of walls in in Europe is improving.
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It's definitely better than in the past.
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There are many, many more walls than used to be in just a few
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decades ago. The overall estimate in Europe
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is about 23,000 wolves. I don't know why people are
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obsessed by numbers. They, you know, the when you
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give a talk about wolves, the first question is how many there
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are. And usually my answer is why do
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you, why are you interested? What's the difference for you if
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I say 20 or 30,000 or 50,000? Would you ever make the same
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question to find out how many foxes you have in Europe?
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No, that would be silly. Well, it's equally silly for
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wolves, but nevertheless there there are.
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Well. Why does that but tell us why
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that happens? Because there's some psychology
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going on there, isn't there? About wolves?
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What does it tell us about how people see them?
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Yeah, it's probably because wolves are.
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Well, that's a long story. In my opinion, wolves are very
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close to to dogs. I should say the other way
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around, of course, but and so people look at wolves like, you
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know, they companion like animals that are here in our
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backyard. And so that's why you want to
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know how many. But also people are have their
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mind already taken by prejudice about wolves and, and and and so
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knowing how many somehow helps in defining the dimension of
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these problems, even though people have no idea what's the
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difference between 20 and 30,000 walls in terms of the ecology,
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in terms of the traditional livestock, in terms of
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everything else. So anyway, this 23 thousands are
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not distributed evenly across Europe.
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You know the there are quite a few in famous Canya.
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Fenescan. Where's Fenescan?
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That's Finland. Well, that's definitely in
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Sweden. Mostly in Sweden, with very few
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in Norway. Very few.
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Basically because Norway has a policy in place decided by the
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parliament of having only a few animals.
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Norway decided to have, if I'm not wrong, something like 5 or 6
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or 7 packs only all. All the rest is going to be
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eliminated. Some 400 in Sweden.
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I'm not giving you the numbers for each European countries, but
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basically the main populations are in Iberia between Spain and
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Portugal. Italy has quite a few.
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We estimate about 4000 walls here.
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And then big numbers are in the, you know, the, the Alps going
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from France all across the Alps into Slovenia, big numbers in
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Romania, Bulgaria, the, the dynamic area in, in general.
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And then again some 1000 in Poland, a good number and
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increasing in Germany. And this is very important
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because this Central European population is actually expanding
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fast toward W. At the moment there are 9 packs
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in the Netherlands, for example, the places you would never say
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that, you know, that is suitable for wolves.
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And here comes another a very important point.
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You know, people immediately ask, but do we still have a
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habitat for wolves? Then when I ask what what is, in
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your opinion, a wolf habitat, nobody has an answer.
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People may answer, you know, wolves live in the forest now.
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They don't live in forests because wolves live chase
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animals by running after them. You can't do that kind of chase
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in a forest. Wolves live in open space.
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They may retreat in a forest, but they basically need open
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areas where they can hunt. But having said that, I always
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recall the best definition of a wolf habitat that was given by a
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friend of mine, a wolf biologist in North America.
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And it's it's anywhere where there is anything to eat, from
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garbage to a moose, and where the animal is not shot.
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That's a wolf habitat. Wow, that's a really good
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definition, yeah. Yeah, it's very bold, but
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basically need means that you can find a wolf tomorrow morning
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anywhere in Europe and that's normal.
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So the, I mean, I've heard that there's wolves in every European
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country or at least on the continent and we'll get to the
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UK later maybe. But is that true?
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Are they permanent populations or are they moving around, or
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how does it work? No, no, there, there, there is a
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permanent population now. And as I say that there are very
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few in the Netherlands and Belgium and in the Denmark, of
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course. So this country depends on the
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bigger population that is in Germany.
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But that's why we the large carnivore initiative, we'd like
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to talk of sub sub populations. And so we have A1 Iberian
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population in Spain and Portugal.
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Then we have a one Italian population going from southern
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Italy up to the to the northern part of the happenings.
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Then we have an Alpine population and then we have a
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central European population that goes from Poland, Germany, the
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Netherlands, Belgium. But of course, wolves do
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disperse over long, long distances.
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When a young wolf is about two years old, he leaves a family
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looking for a new partner, a new territory.
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And in this dispersal movement can be very long.
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One of the best data we got two years ago was of a wolf marked
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by a radio caller in southern Switzerland and killed by a
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poacher in Slovakia some 2000 kilometer.
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So, you know, it's very, it's an artefact of Speaking of sub
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population because basically there is only one big population
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in Europe and that's it. Right.
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So there's no there's no genetic distinctions between.
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They are all connected. They are all connected,
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definitely. Yeah, they have been separated
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for long time. So you genetically you can
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distinguish an Italian wolf from a Spanish 1:00 and from others,
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but it really doesn't make much of a difference.
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Yeah, I mean, I, I love wolves in principle, like most people
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probably do. I've never seen one in the wild.
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Well, I've never seen a live one in the wild.
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I saw a dead one once when I was with some native Alaskans, and
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they're dead. Shot this wolf and the head was
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there in the doorway. And that's, well, it was fairly
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recently killed, but that was the only time I've ever come
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close to a real, a real wolf, not a real live wolf.
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But can you, if you worked on this for a long time, you must
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have had some interesting encounters.
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Can you tell us a story or two about wolf encounters?
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No. Many, many, many encounters.
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The very, very first one was right at the beginning of my
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work in central Italy and I was 1 evening in the in the
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mountains. I was living in a small cabin
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and I was going back to my home and then suddenly I heard this
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beautiful howl coming from a nearby valley and and I had
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never seen a live wolves in the wild yet.
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And so when I heard this howl, I walked very, very slowly over
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the Ridge near the road and just peeked out of this Ridge looking
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down and there was a pack of 6 wolves playing and running and
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howling and very happy. And that was my first meeting
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with the wild wolves. I will never forget that, of
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course. But later on, I had the
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opportunity to go, for example, to, to Ellesmere Island with my
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friend Dave Meech in North America, where he had been
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studying a pack of, of, of animals.
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So are not afraid, we're not afraid of humans.
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So he had been working on them for for many years and he
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continued. By the way, there is a book
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coming out on on this experience.
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It's beautiful. And so we had a the chance, I
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had a chance to stay for a month and 1/2 in the tundra of
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Ellesmere Island at a distance of 2 meters from a pack of walls
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and going chasing with them and living with them and watching
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them all the time. And it's fantastic.
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They were running free and we were running with the Cods over
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the tundra to keep them, you know, never cameing out, coming
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out of the quads because, you know, we didn't want the animals
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to learn that humans have two legs and can walk on their own.
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So they for for them humans are on on a quad.
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Or humans have sleds, right? They, they, they're not legs,
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right? No in.
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Fact. Oh, it was, it was fantastic.
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But then I've seen also many, many times throughout this 50
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years of work. Yeah.
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And how do you, I mean, how do you feel about them?
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How do you respond to them emotionally?
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Like for me, they, they're just so kind of, I mean, it's
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difficult not to have a come into cliche, but they're so sort
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of majestic and just Beautiful Creatures.
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I would love to hear a wolf howl because for me that means that
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the landscape is sort of qualitatively different in a
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kind of wilderness sense from a purely human dominated
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landscape. So there's something that wolves
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have about them. I mean, do you do you feel this?
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Absolutely. They are very, very charismatic
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and one of the reason person they believe, one of the reason
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why they are so charismatic is that they are so similar to
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humans in many respects. Sometimes, you know, jokingly I
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said, I can talk for two hours and you would never know if I'm
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talking of humans or wolves. I can use the same word, the
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same concept. You know, they live in family,
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they have a territory, they fight each other, they have a
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hierarchy, they have a, you know, all sorts of things.
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I can talk really the the same thing.
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And this is one of the reason why humans have feel so much
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attached to, to, to wolves, because they can be a
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competitor, but they can also be an example.
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Most people think that humans have been always afraid and
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hating wolves. That's really wrong.
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There is a probably a major part of of humanity has a a positive
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view of wolves for all the human societies that were warriors.
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Wolves are an example are not something you hate.
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You want to be like a wolf because you see how successful
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they are in in the hunt and. There's all these, there's all
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these mythologies like the foundation of Rome, the Romanus
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and Remus. These these were babies who were
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thrown out by their human, not that I can't remember why, but
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anyway, they were raised by a she wolf, right?
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They were suckled by a she wolf and then that's how they
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survived. And and there's several
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variations of those myths, aren't they?
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So there, there is something you wouldn't get that for a bear or
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something. So there's something special
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about wolves, but that's humans. Exactly, Exactly.
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But I mean, most of the North American Indians were positive
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toward the wolves. The Eskimos are positive.
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All the nomadic, nomadic culture of Central Asia and the positive
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Genghis Khan is the son of a wolf, you know.
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And so you, you, you find that the wolf always there when you
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speak of warriors culture. So so basically basically all
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human societies have felt the charisma of the wolf like over
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time and have built it into their myths and their religious
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and belief systems and so on. Even though even if you fight
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them, you still honor them and respect them.
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Just to give an example. I mean in in in Greece they had
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bounties on walls already in the 6th century before Christ so
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long time ago. And yet Apollo is the God of sun
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and the God of sun is a is a positive God is not negative.
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And Apollo had a pack of wolves servicing in.
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So you know the wolf is associated with a with a
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positive image, a positive deity.
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And so there is this ambiguity in certain culture.
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And wolves are not always negative at all.
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So did the negative thing emerge in the last few centuries then?
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I mean, we've got, I'm thinking of, I don't know, without being
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too flippant, you know, we've got nursery rhymes, we've got
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Little Red Riding Hood, the Three Little Pigs.
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I mean, there's always the big bad wolf, right?
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So when did it become this thing which was so hated as opposed to
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being so revered? Well, the wolf became a real
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nuisance when humans settled down with agriculture and that
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their livestock. Then of course, you know, the
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the fight and the damage the wolf had.
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I mean, the conflict can be very high.
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And so the the wolf, the people tried to get rid of the wolf as
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much as possible. Wolves were exterminated, for
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example, in England back in 16 century, long time ago, they
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managed to get rid of wolves by cutting down all the forest.
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So that was a very easy way progress.
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I mean, gradually all across Europe, the walls were
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exterminated. The last wolves in the Alps, it
18:07
was 1920. They never disappeared from
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central Italy, from the central Spain, and from Greece, northern
18:19
Greece and the Balkan, because the traditional way of
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pastoralism found a compromise between keeping sheep and
18:30
keeping some wolves, And so they managed to not to disseminate
18:35
everything, but that was good. Yeah, Yeah.
18:38
So, so wolves reintroduce themselves in Europe or have
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there been reintroduction programmes?
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I mean, how? How come the wolf is now so
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resurgent across so many different countries after having
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been nearly completely exterminated?
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There's been not a single wolf reintroduced in Europe.
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I mean, it must be stress because people sometimes believe
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that they are, you know, so many now because they have been
19:02
reintroduced. Now there has been a wolf
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reintroduction in North America in the Yellowstone only that's
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it. In the expansion of wolves
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throughout Europe is due to the biology wolves, they can
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increase very quickly. The a population of wolves can
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increase up to 30% a year. They are very flexible.
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That means in their ecology is very is very adaptable.
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They can eat everything and as long as they are not killed,
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they just reproduce and expand. And that's what happened in
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throughout the most of Europe. So then it's it's quite normal
19:46
what what's happening. And also, as I said before,
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their dispersal ability allow them to colonize distant areas
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quite fairly quickly. In my view, it's shown the
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wolves can't swim because then we'd have them back in England.
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I mean, as you say, it was Scotland I think was the last
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place the wolf was killed, not England.
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And there would have been even earlier there.
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But this if, if, if they can live in Belgium and they can
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live in the Netherlands. I mean, they're more densely
20:11
populated than the United Kingdom.
20:13
We've got. I would have thought habitat to
20:15
support wolves, but it's such a politically toxic thing I don't
20:18
think even the most fervent rewilding advocates a data
20:22
suggests that wolves should be intentionally brought back.
20:26
But you know. What's your view of this from
20:28
from a European perspective? No, no, my very first conference
20:33
on wolves for introduction in Scotland was in 1978 and then
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I've been invited several times after that.
20:39
You know, keep discussing. Yes we will.
20:42
We need wolves. There's so many deer in
20:43
Scotland, we need wolves. Yes, you have many deer, but you
20:47
also have many sheep. So, you know, it depends.
20:50
And you forget that as I said before, people, wolves can
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disperse over long distances. You release a wolf in in
20:58
Scotland and in a few years, very few years, you may have
21:03
wolves down to the out in the outskirt of London.
21:07
Then I want to see the the British public opinion
21:11
discussing about cuddling walls. That would be a nightmare.
21:15
Would be a wonderful experiment in sociology and psychology but
21:20
biology biologically speaking would be trivial.
21:22
I mean you can certainly release them and they will have a lot of
21:27
food in in in UK no problem. So should we do it?
21:32
No. Why not?
21:33
Why not? Why not?
21:34
Because then you have to kill many of them.
21:37
Why? Why do we have to?
21:38
Why can't we just let them live I.
21:39
Mean because the population would increase and you don't
21:42
want to have wolves in Hyde Park really.
21:45
I don't, I don't know why. Why not?
21:46
I mean, they're not, it's not like they're actually a danger.
21:48
I mean, well, tell me, are they, are they significant danger to
21:51
humans or is it about livestock and stuff?
21:54
No. They basically depredate on on
21:57
livestock. We don't have a case of wolf
22:01
attack on humans in Europe in the last 40 years or 50 years,
22:07
but they can if they learn to do that.
22:11
They could do that and so you better be careful.
22:15
If you still have few walls, a lot of people, then the chance
22:20
of a an attack are quite low. But if you have many walls in a
22:24
very urbanised area, I would not exclude that a one day a wall
22:30
would try to taste a little kid, for example.
22:36
And you don't want to risk that. And if you ask me, I'm, I'm
22:40
happy to have walls around my house.
22:42
Sure, of course. But then, you know, we are in a
22:45
democracy. Let's see the majority of
22:47
people, what do they feel? I don't think it would be a wise
22:52
idea to have walls released in UK unless there is a real
22:58
national pact of an experiment that has to be done in this and
23:03
this and this way, with the already in place the measure to
23:07
be taken in case something happened, in case of wolves are
23:10
too many, in case the conflicts are too many and so on and on
23:14
and on. Well, I don't know.
23:15
We plan it. We're very, very keen on
23:17
rewilding and I'd love to make a proposal for reintroducing
23:20
wolves in the UK with your guidance about how to do that.
23:23
But at least get the conversation going and figure
23:25
out how we can move public opinion because I don't see why
23:27
this, this incredible creature should be absent forever in, you
23:31
know, well, maybe. I mean, for me, I always
23:34
believed or assumed that you couldn't have proper rewild and
23:38
without all the different trophic levels, all the
23:40
different levels of like predator and prey.
23:42
Is that true? I mean, can you have ecosystems
23:45
which are properly kind of constituted and, you know, able
23:49
to sustain themselves without the top carnivore like a wolf?
23:52
Well, there are many areas of the world where wolves never
23:55
existed and you have beautiful ecosystem even there, you know,
23:59
ecosystem adapts and of course we tend to think, OK, the wall,
24:04
the walls part of this ecosystem.
24:06
Now there is no wall to so this ecosystem is actually weak or
24:11
well, that's not necessarily true.
24:16
Large areas of, of Europe have been without walls for a couple
24:20
of centuries. They have not collapsed
24:23
ecologically. I mean, the UK is ecologically
24:26
viable. It's a nice landscape.
24:28
You have a lot of predators. You have, you know, you cannot
24:32
say that UK is ecologically finished.
24:37
Oh, so you don't need walls? There may be a place for walls
24:43
for sure. And the very reason why you want
24:46
to have walls, be serious and be honest to yourself, is because
24:50
you like them and you love. So the the ethical reason to
24:54
have have wolves back, in my opinion, is much much stronger
24:59
than an ecological reason. There is no no reason to say
25:04
wolves have a sanitary effect by killing the the the sick and
25:10
weak animals. OK, that's true in certain
25:13
areas, but there is no reason to say, for example, the wolves are
25:18
actually regulating their prey population.
25:20
This is not true at all. We have been flooded in the last
25:25
few years by stories about Yellowstone, this beautiful
25:28
Yellowstone model. Well, the return of the walls
25:32
changed the landscape, changed the ecosystem and.
25:35
Tell us that story from the beginning, because it's been It
25:38
is a bit of a conservation meme. I've seen it retold many times,
25:40
but listeners may not know it. So tell us what the story was
25:43
and actually what the truth is scientifically.
25:44
Well, I started from the from the last of your question.
25:49
There is a book called Yellowstone Walls written by the
25:53
people who have been working on walls for the past 25 years.
25:58
It's one of the most beautiful book on walls ever written.
26:04
You look at that and you will find a chapter about this story
26:08
of the ecosystem impact and roles and all that.
26:11
And if you read that chapter in the end, you understand that the
26:14
authors say, well, we don't really know what's going on.
26:20
So I think it's a totally premature to draw conclusion on
26:23
the on the positive role of wolves.
26:27
There are so many variables in that stories that have been have
26:32
not been taken in account. For example, the role of humans,
26:36
the role of hunters around the National Park, all this other
26:39
aspect that you know, alternative hypothesis on the on
26:44
the ways the ecosystem evolved. To make the story very short,
26:49
certainly wolf have a role, but not necessarily this role is so
26:54
essential to keep the ecosystem in well, in good conditions.
27:01
But but I mean, surely if you don't have, I mean, the original
27:03
Yellowstone story, as I understand it was that the
27:07
herbivore populations was elk or something else I can't remember,
27:10
were eating old willows and that that was kind of stopping the
27:14
landscape from having in, you know, reforestation or whatever
27:17
it was. And then they bring in the
27:18
wolves as a reintroduction and that kills off enough of the elk
27:21
that it means that the trees can grow again.
27:24
And that's sort of an idea, I think, which has become used
27:27
more widely as well for reforestation and kind of
27:30
rewilding. But if it turns out not to be
27:32
true, then. Well, for example, when after
27:35
the first story was told in the way you just summarize as
27:39
another study came up very nicely who showed that actually
27:43
the there was a very, very important role of the hunters
27:47
who killed the Elks and, and, and move the Elks away and, and
27:52
reduce the number of Elks. So it was not the wolf that did
27:55
the the the job, but was the hunters.
27:57
I think the really critical point here is that utilitarian
28:01
arguments for species reintroductions, actually
28:04
they're advanced a lot, including by scientists because
28:06
they think that they need to win the argument and utilitarian
28:09
grounds. Whereas actually these these
28:11
decisions are made at a much more emotional level.
28:13
As you said, I want the wolf back because I love wolves.
28:16
I don't care whether they are, you know, going to be a net
28:19
benefit in terms of tourism to the UK economy or some, some
28:21
such kind of metric. So maybe it would just be better
28:24
if we were all honest about that, eh?
28:26
Absolutely, I totally agree with you.
28:28
I've been preaching this for decades.
28:30
I'm very happy to hear that from you.
28:32
Absolutely agree 100%. Let's forget about all the just
28:38
technically mechanistic justification.
28:41
Let's say that we won't wolves around because they are
28:44
beautiful animals. Fantastic.
28:47
Actually, I also kind of believe this for other kind of
28:50
biodiversity issues as well, in that I often find the arguments
28:55
for biodiversity conservation underwhelming in the way that
28:59
they're put in terms of ecosystem function and stuff
29:02
like that. Even for like the six mass
29:04
extinction, I think the planet could survive and could continue
29:07
to flourish in terms of its human population with half of
29:09
the species that we've got. Now, that's probably a bit sad
29:12
and it's not a world that I want to see, but I think it's
29:15
probably disingenuous for scientists and conservationists
29:18
to make the argument that humans can't survive if if, if species
29:21
don't survive alongside us. And it's something else that's
29:23
going on. I mean, you're on the IUCN, so
29:25
tell me what I should be thinking on this.
29:28
No, no, the IUCN has been proposing for ages a view of
29:34
nature that is compatible with with human progress.
29:38
When we come to to large carnivore and specifically to
29:41
wolves. So we like to speak of
29:43
coexistence and so we use this word, but actually very few
29:48
people analyse what coexistence means.
29:52
You know, as you say, they are in the public opinion, they are
29:55
too extreme, especially when we speak of wolves.
29:58
The public opinion is just, you know, too opposing blocks, all
30:02
in favour or all against. It's very difficult to find the
30:06
people in between. So but what coexistence mean,
30:10
mean compromise? The word coexist and means
30:13
compromise. Compromise means that both
30:15
parties give up something. And both parties in this case
30:20
are humans that have to learn to tolerate a little bit of
30:23
conflict and damage. And the walls will have to take
30:27
some culling, some killing, some of the animals who will have to
30:31
be removed. And this should not be a taboo.
30:34
But for the moment, until now, it's been a taboo for all the
30:39
organization on animal welfare, protectionist, not really
30:46
advanced, conservation minded. And so every wolf is sacred.
30:51
Let's not speak of killing any wolf.
30:54
That's impossible. Coexistence means that if you
30:57
release the wolf in UK and tomorrow morning a wolf managed
31:02
to get into Hyde Park, you'd just kill it or remove it to
31:06
whatever you want to call it. But you have to do that and if
31:10
you have this compromising place and accepted by all parties,
31:15
then we can have wolves everywhere.
31:18
That's quite a difficult thing to get your head around to have
31:21
wolves. We've got to kill wolves.
31:23
Yes. I mean, the weird things happen,
31:27
Like what didn't wasn't Ursula van der Leyen's pony, You know,
31:30
she's the Commission president, I think.
31:32
Wasn't her pony killed by a wolf?
31:33
And somehow now we've got wolves, the conservation status
31:37
being downgraded across Europe. And maybe these two things
31:39
aren't connected, but it's a bit too much of a coincidence.
31:43
Yeah. Well, it's a bit more than a
31:46
coincidence I think. And you can see that the old
31:51
process of applying for a down leasing to the Bern Convention
31:57
and now on March 7, when this will become a low, you will see
32:02
all the legal procedures to to change the Habitat directive.
32:09
They have all been managed by the Office of the President, not
32:15
by the others. So there must be either a
32:19
personal interest or I'd say politically personal interest to
32:27
please farmers, to please certain sectors of the economy,
32:34
you know, by concessions of, of killing, of killing walls more
32:40
easily than in the past. But, but, but it's a false
32:43
problem really, because even now that the walls are fully
32:48
protected, there are ways around legally and you can ask
32:53
derogation to kill a wolf. So you and, and there, there is
32:56
a article 16 and you have the directive that specifically
33:00
talks about derogation. In France last year under
33:04
derogation killed 250 wolves, not one 250.
33:09
So you can do that as long as you have a plan and as long as
33:13
the overall population is not threatened.
33:16
And in France you can kill 250 because you you have more than
33:20
1000. Well, that's 1/4 of the
33:22
population though in one year being killed.
33:23
Yeah. Why is that?
33:24
Why is that acceptable? But the population increased by
33:26
30%. So you're actually not really
33:29
reducing the numbers. So there is, I mean, we can
33:32
discuss that. I'm, I'm not really very, very
33:35
happy with what France is doing. But I mean, there are ways
33:38
around, but maybe not 250, but 200 you can do so Italy has 4000
33:44
volts. Even if you kill, it will never
33:47
happen. But even if you kill 500, the
33:51
population from a demographic point of view, really nothing.
33:56
So yeah, so, so coexistence go through this difficult choices
34:05
if you have to take in account that wolf population will
34:09
increase. Are you happy to have wolf
34:13
around like you have sparrows in your garden?
34:17
If so, fine, but I don't think the majority of people will be
34:21
happy with that. It doesn't killing wolves affect
34:25
wolves sort of society social structure, because the packs are
34:28
very, you know, the the societies are quite complex and
34:32
quite, you know, enduring, aren't they?
34:34
So tell us about how removing individuals.
34:36
Well, explain how wolves even how how they do organise
34:39
themselves. Well, wolves leave in pack and
34:42
the pack is basically a family, father and mother and the pops
34:45
of the year with few leftover from the previous years if they
34:49
didn't want to leave the family. So the basically that's the
34:53
unit. And then you have this.
34:58
This unit has a territory and the the size of the territory
35:02
depend on the amount of the resources available.
35:05
So it could be from 50 square kilometre to 5000 square
35:10
kilometre where there is nothing to eat.
35:13
In general, a big, big average of a territory size in Europe is
35:19
around 203 hundred square kilometre.
35:23
So that's the average size when the population is really Satura.
35:29
I don't know, I can't remember the word now.
35:32
When, when the population feel all the space, then you have all
35:36
the territories one near the other one.
35:38
But most of the time this is not the case.
35:40
You have a pack here with the territory and then another one
35:43
maybe 200 kilometres away, 300 kilometres away with void areas
35:48
in between. So is this is the way they live
35:54
and this is the way they manage to exploit the local resources.
35:59
But wolves are actually very, very flexible and they adapt to
36:06
every local situation depending on on the kind of prey you have,
36:11
the amount of prey you have, the topography, the geography, the
36:15
impact of humans, how many humans are in the area, what
36:19
kind of disturbance come from from this, this, this human
36:23
presence and and so on. So it's very difficult to
36:28
predict exactly what's going to happen.
36:32
Walls are too much adaptable to local situation.
36:36
The number of variables in the environment so high that is very
36:40
very difficult to predict could happen in in in few years time.
36:46
But if you if you have a hunter who kills the, you know, the
36:49
alpha female in a pack, doesn't that make the pack fall apart or
36:52
something? Yes, but this is has been shown
36:56
that killing one of the pair. I don't I hesitate to call it
37:04
the alpha pair like normally it's this is the way used to
37:09
walls are used to be called in in.
37:12
In that case, the the old pack may dismantle and the animal and
37:17
the younger disperse and and you may have the younger animals
37:22
that are, that have more problems in hunting and so they
37:28
may be, they could more easily turn to livestock for example
37:33
and do more damage. So killing wolves for livestock
37:42
is not really a good solution unless you eliminate the old
37:47
pack. But that's not very easy to do
37:50
or you are so good as a trapper or a hunter to kill exactly 1
37:57
the animals that you think is most responsible for killing the
38:01
livestock. Sometimes this is possible.
38:05
It's possible because there are some packs that learn a certain
38:09
behavioral or certain animals that are more bold or active in
38:14
the hunt. And so you by eliminating that
38:17
specific individual, you can reduce the amount of damage.
38:21
But this is possible only when you have a very sophisticated
38:27
research going on in the area together with the conflict
38:31
management. Well, on so on, Yeah.
38:34
So on conflict management, I mean, what other than killing
38:37
wolves, what are some of the measures that have been taken in
38:41
different places so that farmers can, you know, still continue to
38:45
keep livestock and, you know, the the conflicts can at least
38:48
be reduced as far as possible? Absolutely.
38:52
The wolves and sheep for example, in over most of the
38:57
Mediterranean have coexisted for millennia, not centuries,
39:01
millennia only using one tool, which is the the guarding dog.
39:09
And now these guarding dogs are, you can call them a different
39:13
way, different races, but they are basically all the same kind
39:16
of the same type. The massive, heavy, white,
39:22
large, not very bright, not really.
39:26
But they, they don't need to be bright because they don't need,
39:29
they need to be. They are not afraid.
39:32
Their role is to remain there when the wolf attack and not run
39:39
away and bark. They are not meant to fight the
39:44
wolf at all. But they have to stand their
39:47
ground to make a lot of noise. They exactly they have to stay,
39:50
stand the ground and bark. By doing that they disrupt the
39:55
aggressive behaviour of the wolf that is used expected the the
40:02
the the prey to run away. But this dog is not running
40:05
away. So that's the first thing.
40:07
And then by barking they call the shepherd and the shepherd
40:10
must be nearby. The shepherd comes.
40:13
With a stick, with a gun or whatever and chase the walls
40:15
away. In this way, the system has been
40:18
coexisted for centuries. Today we have that still that
40:24
the the shepherd dogs are extremely important and we have
40:28
some technical tools that helping the shepherds.
40:31
For example, the electric wires, electric fans and the electric
40:35
fans are extremely useful. They work very well and the
40:40
combination of two works very well, can reduce the conflict
40:45
almost to 0, almost never to zero.
40:50
So the must there remain always a level, a small level of
40:55
tolerable conflict. But that's so, so we go back to
41:00
the concept of coexistence. You know, as long as the damage
41:04
is tolerable a little bit, it's OK.
41:09
If it's too much, no. And if there's some level of
41:12
livestock predation, other compensation schemes that keep
41:16
farmers, you know, get keep. Farm compensation Almost
41:20
everywhere in Europe they are compensation scheme.
41:23
There are a lot of funding made available by the European
41:26
Commission for under the various agricultural chapters and a lot
41:33
of fund available not only to pay compensation, but also to
41:37
support the the farmers with all these technical means, electric
41:43
fans and guarding dogs salaries, two additional shepherds in
41:48
summertime and so on. But it must be saved very clear.
41:51
If you expect to find a way to coexist with wolves and still
41:58
keep your livestock a free ranging, that's a beautiful
42:03
recipe for disaster. Re ranging livestock are not
42:09
compatible. Well, that's a problem in the UK
42:11
because most of the sheep are very, very free, ranging across
42:14
large areas. Of the because you don't have
42:16
predators. So, you know, of course you can
42:18
afford that. Of course, of course.
42:20
What are some of the other disturbances that can that can
42:23
seriously affect balls? I'm thinking of things like
42:25
border fences. I read that there was a fence
42:27
that's now been built between the Baltic States and the
42:31
Russian Federation and Kaliningrad.
42:33
You know these vision be split populations, you know fragment
42:37
habitats. I mean, how?
42:38
How serious is that as an issue? Well, in certain areas these
42:42
fences are being built very rapidly to keep people away.
42:47
But don't forget that another kind of fence is actually
42:52
increasing and Criss crossing Europe very quickly and our
42:56
fences to keep away the swine fever and they are really
43:02
cutting population very, very badly even in Central Europe
43:06
like Germany for example and the Netherlands and and so on.
43:11
What do these what do these look like?
43:12
I I didn't know about swine fever fences.
43:14
Oh yeah, they are meant to keep the wild boar away and so they
43:20
are built for that. And these are actually these are
43:24
actually over large distances now.
43:26
Oh yeah, very large distance over long distances.
43:30
It's a very, very dangerous situation.
43:34
These fences are building up very rapidly.
43:37
They of course disrupt also the the world's population.
43:40
But even the fences are built for to keep humans away
43:44
sometimes are really awful, like the big one being built between
43:49
Belarus and and Poland. Finland is actually considering
43:56
a big fence of with Russia, but the border is so huge that they
44:01
will never be able to make it all.
44:03
But certainly they are trying their best.
44:07
And but several 100 kilometres have already been completed.
44:11
Yeah. And and what this is presumably
44:13
had negative impacts on wolves and maybe other species as well.
44:17
Certainly, certainly. And for wolves this is very bad
44:20
because of course you cut the continuity and the possibility
44:25
of genetic exchanges with populations nearby.
44:29
And so you know by Finland, for example, if they, if they
44:35
effectively seal the country against the Russia, Russia while
44:39
there, there are very few walls in Finland, only a hundred, 250
44:43
left. And by themselves, you know they
44:46
will not last genetically. Still choose more.
44:49
Well, I'm not sure if fence is going to keep the Russians out
44:51
if it comes to that. So maybe that maybe that's not
44:54
even the right approach. But what about other kinds of
44:56
human intrusion? Like I mean, I've read, I saw a
44:59
paper about wind farms potentially having an effect on
45:02
wolf sort of habitat. Do you know of any science on
45:06
this? No.
45:07
OK. Never heard of that and I it's
45:10
harder to imagine that wind farms could have an impact, I
45:15
mean on wolves. Yeah, because they're high
45:18
enough out, presumably, that they don't, you know, wolves can
45:20
go right to the base of a wind turbine.
45:22
It wouldn't harm it. So what would the problem be?
45:25
OK, Absolutely. Well, that's reassuring.
45:27
That is, that is good to know. What's the, I don't know, what's
45:30
this of ideal outcome? I mean, forget about politics.
45:33
Well, I guess you can never forget about politics and
45:35
conservation. But still, like, what's your
45:37
kind of wolf human utopia like, is it?
45:40
It's not probably like how Europe looks at the moment or
45:42
even North America. But right.
45:44
What's the best we can aim for perhaps?
45:46
No, it's a dream. It's a dream to find a lasting
45:53
and man and accepted compromise. For the time being we just keep
45:59
living in a swinging pendulum. All against the welfare
46:04
eradication, all in favour total protection.
46:09
Both are actually a recipe for disaster.
46:14
Look at what happened in the in in North America the couple of
46:19
years. Last year, the Idaho, the state
46:23
of Idaho, made a law to kill 90% of the world population, 90.
46:31
That's not a compromise. That's.
46:34
Or take Switzerland, one of the richest country in the world.
46:41
Or take Norway, one of the countries that sell themselves
46:45
as the green, one of the greenest country in the world,
46:49
and they decide in a parliamentary decision that all
46:53
of Norway cannot have more than a handful of packs of wolves.
46:58
Is that is that something that make, I don't know.
47:02
It makes me lose any faith in human rationality.
47:11
I mean, the Switzerland from a day to the other, they decided
47:14
to eradicate all the wolves, kill them all and with the
47:18
exceptions of few packs that are transboundary, so that
47:22
technically the wolves do not belong only to Switzerland, but
47:26
also to the neighboring countries.
47:27
With with without exception, they've been killing everything
47:31
with night equipment by going into the den and killing the
47:35
pups. The most awful thing that we
47:38
have been, you know, reading in in books of two centuries ago
47:43
and they're doing now. And it's just, and this is from
47:47
Switzerland, who then, you know, sell themselves with the the
47:52
image of the of the cow on the grass eating, you know, little
47:58
flowers and producing beautiful milk and cheese and all that.
48:02
That's bullshit. Yeah.
48:06
Well, I completely agree and maybe maybe what's lack lacking
48:11
here is a vision, though, So that's why I come back to your
48:13
utopia. What what does it look like?
48:15
How can a flourishing, you know, prosperous human society coexist
48:20
with, you know, equally flourishing, you know, not just
48:25
wolves, but other large carnivores, in fact, a whole
48:27
rewilded ecosystem. I mean, it's, it's just
48:29
something, a vision which is even possible to fulfill ever do
48:32
you think? It is, it is very difficult.
48:34
We have been working, I mean, I myself, but that's all the large
48:38
carnivore initiative. We have been working now for
48:41
many, many years on this assumption that sooner or later
48:44
humanity will find a compromise and a more stable and rational
48:49
approach and it, but it's not very, not very easy.
48:55
Radical views are on both side unfortunately, and I don't know
49:00
which one is worst, whether the the side of the haters of the
49:06
wolves or the side of the lovers of the wolves.
49:09
And science can help, hopefully. I mean, is it?
49:11
Do you feel like the research that you and your fellow
49:12
scientists have done has been useful?
49:14
Science is essential to provide data and to build the scenarios.
49:20
You know, you say, oh, if you do this, then this happen.
49:22
If you do that, then that will happen.
49:25
But then the decision's, it's politics.
49:27
It's in the end of people. It's not in the hand of science.
49:30
We have been screaming for many, I mean the last, the last
49:36
example of the down listing of the wolf, the large carnivore
49:40
initiative made a position statement and we clearly said we
49:44
are not against the down listing per SE because actually the down
49:48
listing is a, is a signal of success because it means you
49:51
know, you, you, you have saved the animal.
49:54
But we are against this down listing because of the way it
49:59
has been built, the case and and the way it has been supported.
50:04
For example, using data that European Commission last year
50:10
used the same data to oppose the down listing proposed by
50:13
Switzerland. The same data this year is used
50:16
by the European Commission to propose the down listing.
50:20
It doesn't make sense. It's either good or not this
50:24
data. This is a beautiful example of
50:30
how politics overrun everything if they want.
50:34
Well, it wouldn't be the first time that the same scientific
50:37
information has been cherry picked by different
50:40
perspectives. Well, look, I think we should
50:42
wrap up now, but I'm just so grateful for not just for you
50:45
coming and speaking with a survey on the podcast, but for
50:47
how all of the work that you've done to support you, not just
50:51
wolves, but large carnivores. And I wish you all a success,
50:53
and I hope wolves continue to flourish and expand and that
50:57
people can get used to ways that they can live alongside them,
51:00
because that's really the only way that I think we can we can
51:04
succeed in this kind of conservation effort.
51:06
So thanks again, Luzi. Thank you so much.
51:08
Thank you very much. Thanks so much for listening to
51:14
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