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Rev. Barbara Ann Michaels: Humor As the Harbinger of Hope · Holding It Together (Kinda)

1:12
Michael Mackniak: You know, when life gets heavy, when you're running on empty, and you're running on empty from whatever life's throwing at you, be it caregiving, uh navigating broken systems, just just uh running around like a chicken without a head, or just you know, just basically trying to survive the weak.
1:34
Michael Mackniak: The standard advice seems to be that we need to get another tool.
1:39
Michael Mackniak: We need to practice self-care, we gotta learn a strategy, we gotta add another thing to our checklist.
1:47
Michael Mackniak: Um you know, you you know what I'm talking about.
1:50
Michael Mackniak: So, what if the point of being humorous and humor and play and absurdity is not to pick a new tool at all.
2:02
Michael Mackniak: What if it's actually about peeling back the heavy layers of let's call like professional expectations or societal expectations so you can remember who you are to begin with.
2:17
Michael Mackniak: My guest today operates right at that intersection.
2:21
Michael Mackniak: Rev.
2:22
Michael Mackniak: Barbara Ann Michaels is an award-winning interfaith minister.
2:26
Michael Mackniak: She's a Brown University grad, a performance artist, and the creator of Humorville, which is really, really a unique experience.
2:36
Michael Mackniak: Uh you could certainly find it online and look in the description of this episode.
2:42
Michael Mackniak: It's basically Humorville is like an interactive municipality that's designed for giving people back a deeper uh connection through play and humor.
2:53
Michael Mackniak: She's known as the jester of the piece because she steps directly into that raw, dark space that grief and burnout uh can bring, but she comes at it and attacks it with comedy, uh vulnerability, and this refusal to let life scripts rob us of what is our true identity.
3:17
Michael Mackniak: So we want to tear down the walls between the solemn and the ridiculous.
3:22
Michael Mackniak: We want to talk about why faith on the one hand and clowning on the other hand share the exact same DNA.
3:31
Michael Mackniak: And how can dark humor help us to reclaim a lot of our humanity when we're knee deep in the trenches?
3:42
Michael Mackniak: So you look at places like Humorville and you say, how can Humorville strip away the armor that we put up, the defense mechanisms that we put up?
3:53
Michael Mackniak: So I'm gonna have an amazing conversation with uh Barbara today for you all.
4:05
Michael Mackniak: All right, here I am with my friend Reverend Barbara Ann Michaels, who I really appreciate you coming here and bringing you're already smiling, you make me smile with your smile.
4:16
Michael Mackniak: It's just I'm just really happy to have you here because as you know, I I try to bring a new approach to folks who are really dealing with a lot of heavy stuff.
4:27
Michael Mackniak: And and and your approach is certainly different and irreverent, and and and it brings and it lends a lot to how I like to live and a lot through humor.
4:39
Michael Mackniak: And you are a humorist.
4:42
Michael Mackniak: You're actually a clown.
4:45
Michael Mackniak: True story, right?
4:46
Michael Mackniak: True story.
4:47
Michael Mackniak: That's fact, and a reverend.
4:49
SPEAKER_00: Also a fact.
4:51
Michael Mackniak: We gotta talk about that.
4:52
Michael Mackniak: But first of all, I do this to everybody, so I'm gonna do it to you.
4:54
Michael Mackniak: In fact, we kind of had this conversation a little earlier.
4:57
Michael Mackniak: What's got you jazzed and excited?
4:59
Michael Mackniak: What you got going?
5:00
Michael Mackniak: I mean, you have so many things going on right now, I don't even know how you would pin it down, but what's yeah.
5:04
SPEAKER_00: Well, one of the most exciting things that's going on is Humorville, which is where I'm sitting right now.
5:11
SPEAKER_00: If if you're listening to this on audio right now, I'm sitting in Humorville, which is the tourist attraction for your heart.
5:20
SPEAKER_00: It's a storefront that is the small town for self-expression.
5:25
SPEAKER_00: And it has a post office, a library, a voting booth, a marriage bureau, and it's an immersive interactive experience that I opened in late December 2025.
5:39
SPEAKER_00: After touring most of the parts of it for over 10 years before I realized it was a village.
5:44
SPEAKER_00: And that started because I was a wedding officiant.
5:48
SPEAKER_00: That's where I got the name Jester of the Peace, because I was the wedding officiant for people who needed to express their creativity to feel authentic.
5:55
SPEAKER_00: And I really, when we're talking about healing journeys in general, it's like, what do I need?
5:58
SPEAKER_00: How do I express myself to feel authentic along this journey?
6:01
SPEAKER_00: Because people even have different kinds of expression of what restoration is going to turn out to look like or how what methods they use to do so.
6:09
SPEAKER_00: Although humor comes in play most of the time at some point, which we'll talk about.
6:16
SPEAKER_00: So I was a wedding officiant and I started going out in the street because I have a decades-long experience as a street performer and marrying people to themselves and each other symbolically, because there's no ceremony for best friends or coworkers that bring out the best in you.
6:34
SPEAKER_00: There's no this is how is there no ceremony for the person who introduced you to the person who changes your life?
6:40
SPEAKER_00: And there has to be a ceremony for that, but there's not.
6:42
SPEAKER_00: And so we went out and I would do these spontaneous ceremonies, mostly as a solo artist, wearing an altar around my neck and just going out in Times Square in New York City or going out in Central Park and seeing who wants to express themselves in a in a heartfelt way right now, spontaneously.
7:01
SPEAKER_00: But learning over decades who to approach and how to approach them.
7:05
SPEAKER_00: And there's people really make it obvious when they're ready for the game that you have to play, but that also relates to the rest of life.
7:11
SPEAKER_00: Everybody makes it obvious when they're ready for the game you want to play in whatever area of life, whether it's personal or professional.
7:18
SPEAKER_00: And then the follow, then the following year it was, it was it was an election year.
7:22
SPEAKER_00: So I went out and voted people president of what they care about in also in the street.
7:26
SPEAKER_00: And then the next year I had a breakup and it I made a post office in collaboration with the Shashama organization for people to express their hearts, and it just kept going.
7:36
SPEAKER_00: And then I was touring all of those things, and then and then the day that I don't remember where I realized that if you put all that together, it makes a village.
7:44
SPEAKER_00: Well, then the village has to have a place, and this is the place.
7:47
SPEAKER_00: This is the place.
7:48
Michael Mackniak: Yeah, it's such a cool, cool idea.
7:51
Michael Mackniak: It's such a great, yeah.
7:52
Michael Mackniak: She's showing it to all of us right now.
7:53
Michael Mackniak: I am for you, for you guys who who uh when I first met Barbara, we she was talking about Humorville.
8:01
Michael Mackniak: I said, I don't know what the hell she's talking about.
8:02
Michael Mackniak: I gotta go figure that.
8:03
Michael Mackniak: So I just I just googled it and it came up, and it's so unique, it's literally a a store, it's a it's a big, yeah.
8:12
SPEAKER_00: It's a town in a it's a 250 square foot storefront in the middle of Brooklyn.
8:18
SPEAKER_00: And I'm the art so I'm the artist in residence in this building, which is Razor Studios, which is run by Rachel McIntosh.
8:24
SPEAKER_00: And then Humorville has an artist in residence program.
8:26
SPEAKER_00: So there's nine other artists in residents who are working on humor and wellness and humor and healing in some way.
8:33
SPEAKER_00: So we've got Isabella Cassell who's doing olive oil tastings in com in combination, because she's an olive oil sommelier, in combination with creative arts expression.
8:42
SPEAKER_00: We've got Ben Freeman doing one-on-one coaching using the set.
8:46
SPEAKER_00: We've got uh Stephanie Rennert who's doing karaoke courage, which is how do you how do you embrace the emotionality of your voice when you start to sing, and many others, but there's it's it's really a community art center for humor and wellness around the Humorville immersive show.
9:03
SPEAKER_00: And the immersive show is it's a two-hour interactive experience where you choose something you want more of in your life.
9:09
SPEAKER_00: So, okay, Mike, what do you want more of in your life?
9:11
SPEAKER_00: If you were gonna choose anything today, what would it be?
9:13
Michael Mackniak: Oh my goodness.
9:15
SPEAKER_00: First thought.
9:16
Michael Mackniak: Clarity.
9:17
SPEAKER_00: There you go.
9:17
SPEAKER_00: There's many other people who've chosen Clarity because I keep a card for every one of the 300 people who came here.
9:22
SPEAKER_00: So if you choose Clarity, you go to the marriage bureau and you marry Clarity, and then you become president of Clarity in the president booth, and then you call Clarity on the phone and at the phone booth and say everything you've been holding back.
9:32
SPEAKER_00: And so we're really using joyful, immersive art in order for people to express serious things.
9:39
SPEAKER_00: And humorville is here for anyone who's reaching for hope.
9:44
SPEAKER_00: So the humor and wellness path, it's not ready yet.
9:50
SPEAKER_00: You know this the phrase too soon from the comedy industry in the USA.
9:54
SPEAKER_00: So too soon, it just means not yet, but it means not yet.
9:58
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't mean not ever.
9:59
SPEAKER_00: It just means not yet.
10:00
SPEAKER_00: And so for the people who are in their deepest pain, they're the deepest moment of their deepest struggle, they're not humor is not the medicine yet.
10:11
SPEAKER_00: As soon as they're reaching for hope, one iota, then humor, the light of humor can walk in the door.
10:17
SPEAKER_00: And so this is a place for people who are reaching for hope about anything.
10:22
SPEAKER_00: And it could be the smallest hope, it could be the biggest hope, it could be about something devastating, they could just be irritated.
10:28
SPEAKER_00: They the the thing about humorville is that it's so joyful here.
10:33
SPEAKER_00: The the the the through line of Humorville is you can only do it right at Humorville.
10:37
SPEAKER_00: And so people come in here and it's interactive and it's about the arts.
10:40
SPEAKER_00: So there's this tension like, am I gonna do it right?
10:43
SPEAKER_00: Am I gonna I I can't draw, I don't talk, I'm I how do I express myself?
10:47
SPEAKER_00: And so I I find myself saying over and over and over again, you can only do it right at Humorville.
10:53
SPEAKER_00: And the first time I say it, people exhale, their shoulders drop.
10:56
SPEAKER_00: It's like, oh, and then the little lightness comes out, but then I have to keep saying it.
11:01
SPEAKER_00: And by the end, they're saying it to me.
11:03
SPEAKER_00: Well, you can only do it right at Humorville.
11:04
SPEAKER_00: Something falls.
11:05
Michael Mackniak: You know, I hope you have a t-shirt that says that.
11:07
SPEAKER_00: I'm go, I will.
11:08
SPEAKER_00: I I it's time to merch.
11:09
SPEAKER_00: It's time for merch.
11:10
SPEAKER_00: It's like you can something something uh someone says something they meant to say something else.
11:16
SPEAKER_00: You can only do it right at Humerville.
11:18
SPEAKER_00: You knock something over, you can only do it right at Humerville.
11:20
SPEAKER_00: You start to cry, you can only do it right at Humerville.
11:23
SPEAKER_00: And in a way, that's like, don't we wish that was just we people were saying that all the time about life?
11:28
SPEAKER_00: You can only do it right in life.
11:30
Michael Mackniak: Sure.
11:31
Michael Mackniak: Yeah, we should think that way more often, right?
11:36
Michael Mackniak: I think one of the most powerful words that you really honed in on there that I've used a lot and I really think is is powerful is yet.
11:44
Michael Mackniak: Is is yet is a real powerful word because word because it's so not a negative word.
11:50
Michael Mackniak: To me, it is there's there's something good coming.
11:53
Michael Mackniak: It it just not yet, you know.
11:55
Michael Mackniak: It'll it'll it'll get here.
11:57
Michael Mackniak: It'll get here for sure.
11:58
SPEAKER_00: It'll get here and it'll let you know.
12:00
SPEAKER_00: So one of the qualities of humor, I'll talk about the first laugh.
12:05
SPEAKER_00: So the first laugh is something really difficult happens, or maybe mildly difficult, or slightly difficult, and then it's too soon for laughter.
12:15
SPEAKER_00: But then the first laugh happens, and you can't force it.
12:20
SPEAKER_00: But when the first little it when I when I do this as a keynote, I I bring people up on stage and I ask someone to do the smallest possible laugh.
12:30
SPEAKER_00: So I'm gonna ask you to do it because it's fun.
12:32
SPEAKER_00: Can you make the smallest possible laugh?
12:38
SPEAKER_00: Can you make it even smaller?
12:41
Michael Mackniak: I don't know if I can.
12:43
SPEAKER_00: Right?
12:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
12:44
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you did.
12:45
SPEAKER_00: That's what that's what happens.
12:45
SPEAKER_00: And then when that happens, everybody in the whole place cracks up because it's super funny.
12:50
SPEAKER_00: But it could be the smallest possible laugh.
12:52
SPEAKER_00: And as soon as the smallest possible laugh shows up, even if it's just a smile on the heart, that's the first time we put space around the pain and the heart has hope.
13:00
SPEAKER_00: Because before that, it feels like healing is impossible around this situation.
13:04
SPEAKER_00: But as soon as the first, like, so I'll say humor is the harbinger of healing because as soon as, as soon as that first laugh happens or the first glimmer or the first light, it's not that it's healed, it's just that healing is possible.
13:15
SPEAKER_00: And then we believe that we're gonna get over it.
13:17
SPEAKER_00: And that's what the first laugh is for.
13:19
SPEAKER_00: I did not invent humor and wellness.
13:21
SPEAKER_00: It's just, it's just physiologically, psychologically, spiritually, it's just how we're designed.
13:30
SPEAKER_00: We're designed to walk with laughter, walk with humor, with each other through life as a community.
13:35
SPEAKER_00: And because humor and joy are meant to be community practices, that's what humorville is for.
13:39
SPEAKER_00: It's a community place for people to be laughing with each other instead of at each other, because laughing with each other creates love and laughing at each other creates division.
13:49
Michael Mackniak: Yeah, and and humor being the harbinger is such a great way to say it because as you're getting at, I can almost get goosebumps thinking about the devastation that people go through.
13:59
Michael Mackniak: And you, you know, I mean, one of the one of the key listening demographics here are people who are really stuck in bad situations, caring for others, and they really feel down.
14:11
Michael Mackniak: There, there's a degree of loss and grief for a loved one who isn't the same, you know, be it dementia, be it mental illness or whatever.
14:19
Michael Mackniak: And and caregivers go through a lot of emotions themselves.
14:23
Michael Mackniak: And and I think you're right that yeah, for a while it's almost, oh boy, I don't want to laugh at anything because I don't want to seem callous or sh or shallow in in given everything going on around me.
14:38
Michael Mackniak: But as soon as I let that little bit of laughter in and say, you know, it's okay to feel that that that tickle in my belly and and give a and give a chuckle.
14:46
Michael Mackniak: I think I think that's wonderful.
14:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, laughter is la so there's different kinds of laughter too.
14:52
SPEAKER_00: There's also I I mentioned a word once with a friend who used to use comedy to deflect from the situation at hand rather than face it.
15:07
SPEAKER_00: And so the word that I made up for that is called communicating.
15:11
SPEAKER_00: So communicating is using comedy to derail the conversation because the conversation is too difficult.
15:17
SPEAKER_00: That's not what we're talking about when we're talking about humor and wellness, although that is something that people do.
15:22
SPEAKER_00: That's a stress behavior, communicating.
15:25
SPEAKER_00: What we're talking about is going from I don't know how to laugh with this, no parts of me can access that.
15:33
SPEAKER_00: It feels too heavy, I I I can't see any light.
15:37
SPEAKER_00: To if I don't find a way to find some humor in this situation, my energy is going to stay stuck and I'm not gonna be well.
15:44
SPEAKER_00: So I spent a I spent a little while as a pediatric hospital clown.
15:49
SPEAKER_00: And so that is bringing humor to families when they're in the hospital in a high stakes, high stress situation, so that everybody can go on.
16:04
SPEAKER_00: The purpose of of hospital clowning isn't to pretend everything's okay or or or to to make light of the situation.
16:14
SPEAKER_00: It's to free stuck energy and allow people to release their stress and tension so that they can reclaim energy to keep going on the journey.
16:23
SPEAKER_00: That's what it's for.
16:25
SPEAKER_00: And that's what that's what Humorville is.
16:26
SPEAKER_00: That's what Humorville is for, too, really.
16:28
Michael Mackniak: Well, no, but but what you're saying is so important to reclaim your energy, reclaim your own space.
16:33
Michael Mackniak: Uh I think I told you I had a great aunt and uncle who did hospital clowning.
16:38
Michael Mackniak: They it was like the most unlikely pair to do it, but they they were great.
16:44
Michael Mackniak: You said something in a meeting that you and I were in earlier today, uh, unrelated to this, when you said that what and this brings you kind of mentioned it a little bit.
16:54
Michael Mackniak: How often can we use humor not as a as a cover-up, but use it as a coping mechanism?
17:01
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
17:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yes, I was talking about that.
17:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because someone in my world, and I wish I remember who it was.
17:08
SPEAKER_00: I don't remember who it was, said to me, You made your coping strategy into a career.
17:12
SPEAKER_00: And I said, Yes, I did make my coping strategy into a career because I come from I come from a wonderful family of very private people.
17:23
SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, like all power to all the private people that are are in my family, but humor was always a way to to bring us together and find each other and share love and and elevate and like elevate our relationship.
17:43
SPEAKER_00: And I've taken that and and made a career out of it.
17:47
SPEAKER_00: The other thing is that sometimes when people call something a coping strategy, it's it it sounds like they're cheating.
17:57
SPEAKER_00: Like that's just your coping strategy.
17:59
SPEAKER_00: But really, we're meant to all of us are meant to have humor as a coping strategy because we all need to cope.
18:06
SPEAKER_00: And and and ultimately, ultimately, humor is very transformative.
18:10
SPEAKER_00: So what happened, it's so humor.
18:14
SPEAKER_00: I have had people come to Humorville and change direction in their life.
18:20
SPEAKER_00: And I've had people come to most of the parts of Humerville before I realized it was a town and make a change in their life.
18:28
SPEAKER_00: I had one person come in uh pretty early on in January, and she wrote me a couple weeks later and she said, I just want you to know that as a result of being there, I I I put a I put a process of evaluation into my life so I was able to release a whole bunch of tension uh because I realized that there was I was putting tension in my life where it didn't need to be.
18:53
SPEAKER_00: And and she realized that yeah, there's a there's a there's a station where you make up words, and so she made up a word about about that.
19:02
SPEAKER_00: And then it's her word is called fruob, and her name is Jen.
19:06
SPEAKER_00: So she made this word called called frub, and then she would do a frub analysis on her life, which is like reducing friction.
19:13
SPEAKER_00: And she was able to take that, which looks like, oh, I made up a word at Humerville, how cute.
19:20
SPEAKER_00: However, the way transformation works is that people are getting ready to transform.
19:25
SPEAKER_00: It's like before the sun comes out, there's the darkness, before the rain shows up, there's a cloud, before the transformation shows up, there's an energetic process going inside that we can't necessarily see.
19:35
SPEAKER_00: And if someone who's ready to have a transformation meets an a participatory experience where they can express themselves creatively in a new direction, they can use the moment to actually make a change in their life.
19:50
SPEAKER_00: It's not that Humorville, it's not that Humorville was the magic that changed her life.
19:56
SPEAKER_00: It's that she was ready to change her life and she met something here that allowed the change to manifest in that moment.
20:03
SPEAKER_00: And so this place is available for people who are coming with a question.
20:08
SPEAKER_00: Everybody comes here with an inquiry.
20:10
SPEAKER_00: And depending on the nature of that inquiry, all manner of change can ensue.
20:15
SPEAKER_00: And it often does.
20:17
SPEAKER_00: But that's because it's sitting, Humorville is sitting directly on the spot where somebody who's ready for transformation can find it if they're open.
20:26
SPEAKER_00: And and i if they're open.
20:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
20:32
Michael Mackniak: And one one thing that you along these lines, you sent me a a message today, and I I did some thinking about what your message meant, and I'll try to I'll try to paraphrase it as best I can or or or tell you what I think you're saying to me.
20:50
Michael Mackniak: And I tell people this a lot on this podcast and in the work that I do, that you know, your loved one's illness, your loved one's mental illness, or whatever it may be, does not define you as a person, nor does it define them, nor does it define your family.
21:07
Michael Mackniak: And a lot of times I think we we uh take on these these monikers.
21:12
Michael Mackniak: You know, I I always say I'm a lawyer, right?
21:15
Michael Mackniak: By saying I'm a lawyer, I've already alienated 50% of the people in the room, right?
21:19
Michael Mackniak: Yeah, so and then give me a chance, I'll probably alienate the other 50%.
21:25
Michael Mackniak: But um but but I so one of the things that I'm really uh really harp upon with folks is you know, you a care caregiver is not your identity.
21:35
Michael Mackniak: The mother of a of a child with mental illness is not your identity.
21:38
Michael Mackniak: Right.
21:39
Michael Mackniak: And I think that what you sent me back in your message to me today was a way of kind of like stripping away whatever this defense mechanism we've put up.
21:51
Michael Mackniak: Not a coping mechanism, a defense mechanism.
21:54
Michael Mackniak: Stripping away this armor and getting back to who we really are uh before the diagnosis, before the illness, or or whatever it may be, is very important.
22:06
Michael Mackniak: And I think that one of the best ways to do that is through dark humor or humor at all.
22:12
Michael Mackniak: And and I really think it's important that people don't lose sight of that, that life is going on.
22:18
Michael Mackniak: And I and I really encourage people to get back to their to remembering who they are, not what a label says they are.
22:27
Michael Mackniak: Does that make sense?
22:28
SPEAKER_00: Yes, yeah, it does.
22:30
SPEAKER_00: It's and e and it can that can even happen through through events that have happened, and then we give ourselves a label, or we or and and so one of the one of the things I've seen over the years is I I ran for many years, four four years in a row, every month for four years, a program called An Now Woman.
22:55
SPEAKER_00: And it was a so and I also did Anne Now Human, which was all all genders.
23:01
SPEAKER_00: And it was about the invitation was you have to have up to 10 minutes to express yourself in any creative form you desire on the theme of the month as defined by you, somehow in relation to your own life.
23:11
SPEAKER_00: So it Basically, like a creative sharing circle, and people would do everything from emote show painting, read poetry, read prose, improvise, dance, sing, whatever they were doing.
23:25
SPEAKER_00: And one day a woman in her mid-30s came and just shared from the stage, and then she shared that she hadn't done that since she was five.
23:35
SPEAKER_00: And because somebody in her past gave her the idea that she wasn't good at it, which is 30 whole years of not presenting based on an incident that stuck.
23:50
SPEAKER_00: And so what she did in that moment is again, right?
23:54
SPEAKER_00: I said it before the that the she's looking for a change.
23:58
SPEAKER_00: There's a part, even if she's not aware of it, one doesn't even need to be aware that one is looking for transformation, but she's looking for transformation.
24:04
SPEAKER_00: She's got a stage, there's a creative inquiry that's available.
24:08
SPEAKER_00: She stands on it, she says yes to it, or the part of her that's ready to transform does it.
24:12
SPEAKER_00: She stands there, tells the story, and walks off the stage a different person.
24:16
SPEAKER_00: Because she put down the story.
24:17
SPEAKER_00: She left the story on the stage and then she walked off and it evaporated.
24:21
SPEAKER_00: That's what stories do.
24:21
SPEAKER_00: When you leave them on the stage, they just evaporate.
24:23
SPEAKER_00: And then now she's in a different moment in her life because she was looking that the part of her that the part of her that was ready to move the energy, whether she was consciously aware of it or not, took her to a place where she could do so.
24:39
SPEAKER_00: And and so it's possible to take that, whether you know you're ready for it or not, to reclaim parts of your identity, to rewrite your story.
24:49
SPEAKER_00: Another part of Humorville is it's the Circus of the Heart library, which is for stories that are funny now that were hard then.
24:57
SPEAKER_00: And I call it Circus of the Heart because you go to the actual circus to see people do impossible things, like getting shot out of a cannon feels like really impossible.
25:08
SPEAKER_00: Like who can or walk a tightrope or hang hang hang off your hang off the trapeze the top of your foot with nothing?
25:16
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's just a miracle.
25:17
SPEAKER_00: But we need to see people do impossible things.
25:19
SPEAKER_00: Because if I see somebody do that, then my feelings about roller skating just got blown out of the water because I'm just I doesn't look that hard now that I saw someone do that.
25:28
SPEAKER_00: Well, if you can do that, you know, I can walk a I can do a marathon or I can walk, I can go hiking or whatever somebody thinks is impossible.
25:37
SPEAKER_00: And the emotional equivalent of that, uh the emotional equivalent of impossible is it's either laughing with what was hard or it's forgiveness.
25:48
SPEAKER_00: And those two things both feel impossible until you see somebody else laughing with their story of talking down the stage after not doing that for 30 years, or their story of learning how to swim at age 50 after almost drowning when you were nine, or their story, whatever it's gonna be, or their story of ruining a family holiday and finding laughter in it later.
26:10
SPEAKER_00: So it's it it looks impossible, but then the first laugh shows up.
26:14
SPEAKER_00: And so the Circus of the Heart Library is specifically for those tales that are funny now that were hard then.
26:21
SPEAKER_00: And that's also a place where people can get a reframe in their identity.
26:25
SPEAKER_00: Because if you hear somebody laughing about dating with a disability, one of the stories they're all on the on jesterofpiece.com, dating with a disability and being like, oh well, whatever story I had about dating in with whatever whatever feels like is in the way of that, well, if she can do that, I can do this.
26:46
SPEAKER_00: Or if or or or whatever it is, or being booed off stage.
26:50
SPEAKER_00: One of them is about uh an artist who is booed off stage, and he could have said, Well, I was booed off stage, stage is unsafe, I'm never going on stage again.
27:00
SPEAKER_00: But he's a globally touring artist, and so you can hear somebody reframe it and then get hope.
27:07
SPEAKER_00: We don't usually walk around knowing that the stories that we have that are funny now that were hard then can actually help somebody else heal themselves.
27:15
Michael Mackniak: But if we didn't perfect, that's that's exactly what I just wrote down because uh people who listen are gonna be rolling their eyes now because I say this in almost every episode.
27:25
Michael Mackniak: But your story is unique to you, yes, true, but your story isn't unique on a global macro level, no, it's not on the level of humanity, right?
27:35
Michael Mackniak: And other people are walking the journey of being a daughter of a guy with uh of a dad with with dementia, of a mom of a you know, yes.
27:45
Michael Mackniak: So what you what what what people who are listening can can learn from hearing stories here on this podcast or stories in groups that they may go to can be so telling and so uplifting and so educational from hearing a story, but also telling their story to other people, no matter what you think, can re it really can help other people understand where they're at.
28:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and and that's where humor really shines.
28:18
SPEAKER_00: It's the positive humor, it's laughing with each other.
28:21
SPEAKER_00: I have two stories on there from people who've broken both of their legs at the same time.
28:26
SPEAKER_00: Oh, right, I know, like and the fact that there's two of them, right?
28:31
SPEAKER_00: And they're and they're laughing about what that experience was like.
28:35
SPEAKER_00: I've got somebody who's talking about having overcome body dysmorphia.
28:39
SPEAKER_00: I've got three people talking about the death of a parent.
28:42
SPEAKER_00: And it's really important to note that the original thing doesn't become funny necessarily and usually doesn't.
28:48
SPEAKER_00: It's that something along the journey finds humor, and that's where the and that's where the healing is.
28:53
SPEAKER_00: And and one of the if if if if if you're listening to this podcast today and you want to know, okay, well, how do I do that?
29:01
SPEAKER_00: This is a way to do that.
29:02
SPEAKER_00: To engage people that you want to know more about or get closer to in a conversation about times from our lives that were hard then that are funny now, because we see each other in each other's resilience, we see each other in our strength, we get to know about the details of our lives, we see each other in our celebration of what we've overcome.
29:19
SPEAKER_00: It's incredibly powerful to do so.
29:21
SPEAKER_00: It's also a great thing to do at family gatherings, places where people need to get to know each other better.
29:27
SPEAKER_00: You can even do it in the networking or in a, and you can do it in a business setting too.
29:31
SPEAKER_00: It's it's any setting.
29:32
SPEAKER_00: Every human being on earth has stories that were hard then that are funny now.
29:35
SPEAKER_00: And when we're telling them, we get re-healed all over again, we start to shine, you can see the energy in someone's face, their eyes light up, and that tracks and translates to everyone else who's listening because someone who's in their in their in their joyful overcoming energy will naturally uplift everyone around them.
29:52
SPEAKER_00: And so just to engage people on this topic, what's something that's hard then is funny now.
29:57
SPEAKER_00: And one way to do that is to just choose a few from our own lives because we all have them, and and then just be ready to offer that out and see what it inspires in other people.
30:07
Michael Mackniak: Well, and I love the it's called it's called it's funny now.
30:10
Michael Mackniak: That's your it's your it's funny now concept, it's a framework that you work off of to really help people to connect with that.
30:17
Michael Mackniak: Yeah, I think it's really important.
30:19
Michael Mackniak: I think you know, I keep going back to it, but man, laughter sometimes is the best medicine, as cheesy as a cliche as that is.
30:27
SPEAKER_00: Wait a second, it's only a cliche because people had to say it over and over and over and over again because it's true, because it's true, right?
30:35
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I didn't I didn't invent the concept of it's funny now, I didn't invent humor and wellness.
30:40
SPEAKER_00: It's funny now is the path of a he of the healing heart and mind.
30:44
SPEAKER_00: That's what the healing heart and mind does.
30:46
SPEAKER_00: It is funny now, it was not funny before, it is funny now.
30:51
SPEAKER_00: That equals healing, and and the more we can embrace that and keep really keeping in mind though, this difference between laughing with each other, laughing at each other, and communicating.
31:01
SPEAKER_00: Communicating is uncomfortable because everybody knows that someone's trying to change the subject.
31:08
SPEAKER_00: Laughing at each other can really hurt people.
31:11
SPEAKER_00: Laughing with each other is where the love is.
31:14
SPEAKER_00: Not that laughing at each other is never or communicating are never the right thing, because all all like it all serves in certain circumstances, but if we vastly trend towards laughing with each other, then we will greatly amplify like all the healing and all the healing all around us and through us.
31:42
Michael Mackniak: But at the same time, I mean, clowns, you are a clown.
31:50
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for knowing that.
31:54
Michael Mackniak: Clowns want you to laugh at them.
31:58
SPEAKER_00: Well, sort of.
32:01
SPEAKER_00: Clown is a community practice, and so and clowns one of the one of the theories of clown is that it doesn't really matter what you're doing on stage, the only thing that's really important is your connection with the audience.
32:14
SPEAKER_00: And because you're creating connection with the audience, it it's really more like laughing with each other than laughing at each other because the ultimate goal is human connection.
32:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the ultimate goal of laughing at each other is power, the ultimate goal of laughing with each other is connection.
32:37
SPEAKER_00: And the clowns on stage are not trying to have power over the audience, they're trying to take the audience somewhere.
32:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and so it looks like we're laughing at this character's foibbles, but the purpose is community connection.
32:51
Michael Mackniak: Well, I guess when you look at it that way, uh you're you're exposing that we all have these foibbles and everyone, yes, yes.
32:59
SPEAKER_00: A clown with a cup of water, with a hole in it that will not be stopped, and then you finally stop it, and then another hole is somewhere else, and then there's another hole that pops up somewhere else, and then the clown is using their two hands, their foot, and the and the light pole to try and keep the water in the cup, which somehow there's more water in the cup than should be in a cup ever in human history.
33:21
SPEAKER_00: That is a metaphor for someone trying to keep their stuff together.
33:27
SPEAKER_00: That's that's some that is a metaphor for a human being who's trying to pretend that they have it all under control when they obviously do not, and everybody could see it, but they're pretending anyway.
33:35
SPEAKER_00: So that's that's what that's for.
33:37
SPEAKER_00: It's for all of us to see the part of ourselves that's trying to keep it together and who's not actually doing that.
33:42
Michael Mackniak: Well, and that's why I named this podcast Holding It Together, kinda, because aren't we all just kinda holding it together?
33:48
Michael Mackniak: You know, kinda.
33:49
SPEAKER_00: Kinda, kinda.
33:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and and and humor, and then the the humor and it humor is meant to help us hold it together.
33:59
SPEAKER_00: We're meant to stitch our stories together with humor.
34:01
SPEAKER_00: We're meant to stitch the chapters of our lives together with humor.
34:04
SPEAKER_00: It's like it's it's it's like a joyful thread of of restoration through through which we can take, we can let's keep going with this metaphor to which we can make a quilt of our life experiences that are all sewn together with with with with with the appreciation.
34:19
SPEAKER_00: Because when when we're doing we're laughing with each other, we arrive at appreciation.
34:25
SPEAKER_00: And everyone arrives at appreciation together, because that's what the stories are for.
34:30
Michael Mackniak: Yeah.
34:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
34:31
Michael Mackniak: Yeah.
34:31
Michael Mackniak: And and and they're laughing together, they're arriving together.
34:36
Michael Mackniak: Yes.
34:37
Michael Mackniak: Interesting.
34:38
Michael Mackniak: Talk talk about we taught we touched on this a little bit earlier, but talk about your your unlived life concept, because I think that that's important too.
34:46
SPEAKER_00: So one of the yeah, thank you for that.
34:48
SPEAKER_00: One of the reasons, one of the one of the things I've come to understand is why do we do what we do?
34:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I can say I made my coping mechanism into a career.
34:59
SPEAKER_00: I totally have done that.
35:00
SPEAKER_00: And I will continue to do that all my days.
35:03
SPEAKER_00: And what's underneath that?
35:07
SPEAKER_00: Why did I do that?
35:08
SPEAKER_00: What does it lead to?
35:09
SPEAKER_00: So if people take on humor and wellness, what happens?
35:11
SPEAKER_00: What happens is that we have more strength, more energy, more clarity.
35:17
SPEAKER_00: The best time in public speaking, the absolute best time to say the deepest thing that needs to be conveyed in the talk is right after everybody laughs.
35:26
SPEAKER_00: Because right after everybody laughs, their brains are open, their hearts are open, they're listening, nothing's in the way, no one's distracted.
35:31
SPEAKER_00: It's this moment of clarity that you can drop in whatever the most important thing is.
35:36
SPEAKER_00: And so when people are reclaiming their energy through shared humor, through shared positive humor, well, what does that energy want to do?
35:49
SPEAKER_00: It wants to do what was stuck before.
35:51
SPEAKER_00: It wants to do whatever was behind the stuck place.
35:54
SPEAKER_00: And so living our unlived life is what I'm actually most passionate about.
35:58
SPEAKER_00: I want people to find their gifts, give their gifts and be appreciated for their gifts in this lifetime.
36:02
SPEAKER_00: And the to the degree that the societies that we might live in are not set up for people to find their gifts, give their gifts and be appreciated for their gifts in their lifetime, or only some people, then that's this is how I work on that.
36:14
SPEAKER_00: This is how I address what I've seen as some inequities in the world in people having the support to find their gifts, give their gifts and be appreciated for their gifts in lifetimes.
36:27
SPEAKER_00: I can't think of anything more valuable than that, really, uh, other than simply existing, which is a miracle all by itself.
36:33
SPEAKER_00: You could do nothing all day long and still be a total miracle just because existing is so wow.
36:39
SPEAKER_00: There goes your brain, yeah.
36:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
36:40
SPEAKER_00: Um, but living our unlived life is wait, what are we healing for?
36:47
SPEAKER_00: We're healing, we're healing so that we can do what we've been given to do.
36:52
SPEAKER_00: I did not intend to make a village that's in a storefront in Brooklyn as of this moment.
36:58
SPEAKER_00: I didn't even intend to make any of the artwork.
37:02
SPEAKER_00: I didn't intend to marry people to themselves or vote people to president of their to be whatever they want.
37:07
SPEAKER_00: It looks like I intended to do that because I did it, but I just was listening.
37:12
SPEAKER_00: Every people, artists have different processes.
37:15
SPEAKER_00: And my my artistic process is that things arrive in my consciousness and then I just go out and do them.
37:20
SPEAKER_00: And I didn't sit and plan and be like, okay, what do I want to do?
37:23
SPEAKER_00: How do I want to do it?
37:25
SPEAKER_00: Not that that's not a totally viable artistic path, because it is.
37:28
SPEAKER_00: It's just it's different than the one I'm on, but that's also a totally viable way to do it.
37:32
SPEAKER_00: I just get, I just get intuition or I get inspiration, and then I just go out and do the thing without question because I've come to just trust that as a voice.
37:45
SPEAKER_00: And that's likely where my unlived life voices come from.
37:50
SPEAKER_00: And we all have, we all have, we all have a place where the voice of our unlived life comes from.
37:55
SPEAKER_00: And it's like now that you can talk on stage, go give a speech.
38:01
Michael Mackniak: Yeah, yeah.
38:02
Michael Mackniak: Or whatever.
38:06
Michael Mackniak: But but but what you're also talking about, and I guess this kind of goes back to the how we define ourselves, kind of concept.
38:15
Michael Mackniak: But yeah, and and I think this also goes into the conversation about how is this woman an interfaith minister and a clown at the same time?
38:24
Michael Mackniak: But Jim, taking a script that you mentioned that we live in a society and our culture is such that it's like unfairly puts these parameters on us and these blocks and doesn't allow us to explore things that are perfectly human emotions, emotions like humor, like sadness and grief and resentment and and and all that.
38:43
Michael Mackniak: But one of the things that you've allowed yourself to do and you encourage your followers to do and all your guests there is to drop that script and to yeah, okay, I'm an interfaith minister.
38:57
Michael Mackniak: Yeah, I'm also a clown, and who the hell says that they can't coexist in the same person?
39:03
SPEAKER_00: Well, even more than that, so it's become true for me that being an interfaith minister and a clown are actually the exact same thing.
39:13
Michael Mackniak: Yeah, I wanted to ask you about that because that was one of the questions that I came up with.
39:17
Michael Mackniak: Like, how are those two things so Yeah?
39:21
SPEAKER_00: So being a so yeah, so being an interfaith, so interfaith, being an interfaith minister, for anybody who's not familiar with that, is I went to interfaith seminary where we study religions of the world.
39:33
SPEAKER_00: I'm not a member of any particular religion, but I'm a legal clergy person who studied religions of the world in a broad way.
39:41
SPEAKER_00: That is basically, we all have to deal with the mystery of life.
39:44
SPEAKER_00: Nobody and people can do that in a variety of ways.
39:47
SPEAKER_00: They could do it through a spiritual practice, through atheism, through art, through through anything, really.
39:52
SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of there's there's a lot of ways to deal with the mystery of life, which becomes really clear in interfaith seminary.
40:02
SPEAKER_00: Being an interfaith minister is about helping people address the mystery of life, and so is clowning.
40:11
SPEAKER_00: It's it's about what makes a good what makes a good life, how do we want to live with each other?
40:20
SPEAKER_00: How do we how do we how do we tap the the wildness of of of living and at the same time also have comfort?
40:31
SPEAKER_00: How do we have community?
40:34
SPEAKER_00: How do we make changes so that we can live better?
40:39
SPEAKER_00: Both of those both of clown and interfaith ministry both answer those questions.
40:46
SPEAKER_00: And so for me, being a clown is a spiritual practice.
40:50
SPEAKER_00: And so sometimes in the USA, when I say clown, people are imagining a a character wearing a lot of makeup and a very wild outfit doing balloon animals and face painting at a birthday party.
41:01
Michael Mackniak: Yes, right.
41:02
SPEAKER_00: Right.
41:02
SPEAKER_00: So that's that's first of all, face painting and balloon animals are visual art forms.
41:09
SPEAKER_00: They're not actually connected to clown theater.
41:11
SPEAKER_00: It's just that clowns in the birthday party ethos world have taken them on because it's a way to make things with the audience and it's a way of interacting with the audience, but they actually don't have anything to do with clown theater.
41:22
SPEAKER_00: And it takes real talent to do them well.
41:24
SPEAKER_00: You can be in an absolutely phenomenal face painter and an absolutely phenomenal balloon artist.
41:29
SPEAKER_00: But that though the and those are separate from the art form of clown theater, which is about interacting humorously about the human condition.
41:37
SPEAKER_00: And Interfaith Ministry is about interacting energetically, collectively about the human condition.
41:45
SPEAKER_00: They're both about the human condition.
41:47
Michael Mackniak: Yeah.
41:48
Michael Mackniak: And it's so when you say it that way and when you explain it, it's so interesting and it's like hits home.
41:53
Michael Mackniak: It's like, oh yeah, I'm an idiot for even thinking that they weren't.
41:56
SPEAKER_00: Well, it's fun for I mean, the gesture of the piece, I be gesture of the piece was my name as a wedding officiant because I was doing those c helicopter weddings and costume weddings and really taking people seriously when they needed to express their creativity to feel authentic, which is 100% equal to people who need to express their tradition, totally equal.
42:12
SPEAKER_00: You just have to know where you are and be yourself.
42:15
SPEAKER_00: And so it's the I I got that name, but then I kept it when I stopped being, I did about 550 or so weddings.
42:24
SPEAKER_00: When I stopped being a full-time wedding official, which I thought I was gonna do forever, but something else was calling me, and it turned out to be humorville, at least for now.
42:30
SPEAKER_00: Something else might even call me after this.
42:32
SPEAKER_00: I kept the name Jester of the Peace because it means humor for humanity.
42:36
SPEAKER_00: It means joy for humanity.
42:37
SPEAKER_00: What's interfaith ministry?
42:39
SPEAKER_00: Joy for humanity.
42:40
SPEAKER_00: What does Humorville do?
42:42
SPEAKER_00: It goes it takes you to a place in you that's serious, but through joyfulness.
42:46
SPEAKER_00: What does clown theater do?
42:48
SPEAKER_00: It takes us to a conversation about lived life that's actually serious but through joy.
42:52
SPEAKER_00: They're they're one and the same in the way that I in the way that they live in me, in the way that I practice them.
42:58
Michael Mackniak: So what would be your message, other than some of the things we've already we've already talked about here today, but what would be your message to these families who are struggling with so much weight on them and individually or collectively as a family?
43:12
Michael Mackniak: How can they get to that place where they're ready to make that little tiny laugh or well the the it's not a yeah, it's not a conscious thing.
43:19
SPEAKER_00: The first laugh doesn't happen on purpose, it just happens when it happens.
43:24
SPEAKER_00: And there are things that will there are there are experiences that people have that will not find humor in this lifetime.
43:31
SPEAKER_00: And there are experiences people have had that will not find humor for generations.
43:35
SPEAKER_00: This is the best example I have of this.
43:40
SPEAKER_00: War is terrible all the time, a hundred percent of the time.
43:45
SPEAKER_00: Yes, and because of that, we would never think that anybody ever, ever would be able to find humor about war.
43:55
SPEAKER_00: How many funny movies are there that are set in wartime?
43:59
SPEAKER_00: Funny war songs, dances about war, paintings about war, stories about war, and all kinds, there's so much humor about war because we need because whatever hurts wants to heal.
44:14
SPEAKER_00: And when after the period that's too soon, people are going to reach for it because it's because humor and healing are wrapped up in each other.
44:24
SPEAKER_00: And so what I would say is first of all, to believe that it's possible.
44:28
SPEAKER_00: And one way to believe that it's possible is to listen to other people's stories that were hard then that are funny now, other people's circus of the heart tales.
44:35
SPEAKER_00: Because if we know it's because if they can laugh at this, I can laugh at this.
44:38
SPEAKER_00: If they can find humor in that, I can find right.
44:40
SPEAKER_00: It's it's it's like, and then look in our lives for any stories that were hard then that are funny now, and just share them with each other.
44:49
SPEAKER_00: And even in even in healing circles, there is there is a ton of humor in recovery programs because people need to find laughter with the journey, and they do.
45:05
SPEAKER_00: And it's like, well, okay, well, if you can laugh with feeling out of out of control of yourself in this situation, well, at the time that I fell out of control of my myself.
45:13
SPEAKER_00: Well I can find humor there too.
45:14
SPEAKER_00: And it's it's the same thing.
45:16
SPEAKER_00: It's the same thing with with everything that has to do with with the with the the highest stakes of life.
45:24
SPEAKER_00: Careg caregiving is one of the highest stakes of life.
45:27
SPEAKER_00: And so there are gonna be times where the thing fell over the thing the the the the the result was wrong the the the lights went out the the the person said this when they meant to say that so there's so many moments and if we don't share them we don't remember and and the more that we share the times that we're challenging them that are funny now the more everyone has the opportunity to find their own release their own stuck energy and get more energy for the journey that is and and so at the end of Humorville the b the the the wish that I give to everyone is may you walk with humor.
46:11
SPEAKER_00: So may you may you walk with humor.
46:13
SPEAKER_00: And the and you chose clarity as your theme before so may you walk with humor and clarity.
46:21
Michael Mackniak: I love it and I don't even know where to go from there.
46:24
SPEAKER_00: Maybe that's it.
46:25
Michael Mackniak: Maybe that's it.
46:27
Michael Mackniak: Thank you.
46:27
Michael Mackniak: I yeah that's a mic drop moment let's not step on it.
46:32
Michael Mackniak: Thank you so much for doing this with me and for the people who listen that could all use a laugh and use a break.
46:39
SPEAKER_00: So well the laughter the laughter is there for us.
46:42
SPEAKER_00: It's already there it's already inside us we can't ever rush it it will show up as long as we understand that it's safe and good and necessary and healing and collective and connective that it's a form of grace and that and that it leads to wellness that it's part of it's inherently it's not separate from wellness it's inherently part of wellness.
47:04
SPEAKER_00: So as long as we know that and practicing those those stories that were hard then that are funny now is a really really good way to practice it in a safe way.
47:12
SPEAKER_00: It's going to show up in other parts of life.
47:15
SPEAKER_00: You never know where that humor is going to arise.
47:19
Michael Mackniak: Oh some of the worst times and some of the best times right we've all been we've all been to funerals where people were laughing.
47:25
unknown: Yeah.
47:25
SPEAKER_00: Because you have to you have to because it it life is not full without both laughter and tears and let's end here.
47:34
SPEAKER_00: The highest height of crying is that you cried until you laughed you know that tears are resolved when the sun comes out and you start smiling or laughing.
47:46
SPEAKER_00: You cry until you laugh and you laugh until you cry.
47:48
SPEAKER_00: They're one thing it's a cycle we just let the cycle go.
47:52
SPEAKER_00: And if we just let the cycle go around and embrace and welcome the laughter and the tears whenever the moment is for either one of them knowing that they're one and the same and it's all part of the same cycle then then we walk with humor and wellness Reverend Barbara and Michaels check it out check out the description stuff in the description for this episode.
48:12
Michael Mackniak: Again Barbara thanks for doing this thank you for everything that you're doing for so many people all over the world it really is amazing.
48:19
Michael Mackniak: Thank you thank you for the honor and and pleasure and fun and uh and genuineness of being together you know Barbara the work that she does is a real powerful reminder to us all that we don't always have to have another strategy another protocol or another self-care assignment that's gonna help us survive and and and do all the heavy lifting that life has for us sometimes sometimes the best thing the most unique thing the most revolutionary thing you could do when you're buried in it is to stop trying to fix yourself all the time drop all that armor just remember who you were before the world told you who you had to be if you're in those trenches right now give yourself permission to step out of the rigid expectations find an absurd message in all the mess right that's not escaping reality it's how you stay human inside of reality you don't have to have every piece of your life figured out today you just have to be willing to start the conversation give over to it laugh sometimes so a huge thank you to Barbara for joining uh joining me today and for bringing a real grounding to the overall message that we try to uh relay through this this podcast so make sure you check out her workshops look up um humorville and give yourself room to drop the script until next time keep holding it together even if it's just kinda