Latest / ContraMinds Podcast - Unlocking Personal Growth and Professional Excellence / ContraMinds Timeless Wisdom - Kumar Vembu on People, Trust and Ownership (Ep01)

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ContraMinds Timeless Wisdom - Kumar Vembu on People, Trust and Ownership (Ep01) · ContraMinds Podcast - Unlocking Personal Growth and Professional Excellence

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to another edition of Contraminds.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: We have completed five years of the Contraminds podcast, and as we were brainstorming as a team, one of the ideas that came up was to go back to some classic and popular episodes of the Contraminds podcast where we could deep dive into some of the insights, ideas, and thoughts that our AC team guests had shared with us.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: As we minded researched some of the conversations, we realized that many of the concepts and thoughts were timeless in their values and ideas.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: Therefore, here we are with the Counterminds Timeless Resident Series.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: In this episode, we go back to my conversation with Kumar Vembu, founder and partner of Model Partners, ex-co-founder of Zoho Core, founder and CEO of GoFrugal, which was merged with Zoho a while ago.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: In this conversation, Kumar Vembu talks about the correlation between academic performance and work performance.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: He talks about an interesting concept of how to convert backbenchers in schools or colleges into front benchers at work.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: He speaks about the importance of trust, teamwork, empathy, listening, ownership mindset, and decision making as levers of building a great company culture.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: In companies, we talk a lot about planning, but Kumar talks about the importance of retrospection and the openness to discuss what went right, what went wrong in our assumptions after a work or initiative or a project gets done.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: When it comes to decision making, Kumar emphasizes the importance of moving people from informing to making them recommend or find a solution.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: This conversation has very powerful insights and learnings that are just timeless, irrespective of the ecosystem disruption that we are going through due to technology, competition, and new products.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: Just listen and be ready to take notes that will last a lifetime.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: So Kumar, uh, what I wanted to really uh focus on first is really what I believe uh you've done phenomenally different and phenomenally uh you know something that others have not done is uh I was just looking at this uh early uh you know building of uh you know when you did Zoho, uh, you know, one of the points that came up was you were running the India Development Center and uh you did something which is very contrarian, which is picking up people who probably you know would not uh you know want to join, say, a startup or a smaller Indian company, and uh you build it into uh you built it into a 200 uh you know member team, and uh that is something that I don't think many of many companies at that time did.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: What made you think differently and what was the reason why you did that?
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: Because it has had a huge impact uh even today in Zoho, right?
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: So, therefore, and you were almost like a uh you know person who built the foundation for it, right?
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: So, therefore, what made you do that?
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that uh culture continues today in Zoho.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: So, what what made you do that?
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: I think uh there are two things, right?
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: One is uh uh my own background, right?
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: In the sense that uh like I I went to Tamil Medium School up to 10th.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: I remember when I uh you know passed out of my 10th student, all my teachers was were saying, you know, I wasn't good at English.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I used to barely pass in English, and at least uh one in five exams, right?
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: The three midterm tests and the half-yearly and quarterly, uh one in five five I will fail in English.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: And uh so all the teachers were saying uh knowing in the higher secondary is in uh English and I won't uh cope with it, and uh I I know I am better off joining uh politically.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: So uh I actually joined higher secondary school, you know, because I I didn't get admission in the politics.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: So on the last day of closing admission in the school, you know, I uh I joined uh higher secondary, but uh uh you know I did uh well in the even in the higher secondary, you know, but meaning in compared to the school style that I I I finished third in school in the tenth also, third in school in uh twelfth also, right?
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I went to engineering.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: And engineering I spent more time playing cricket.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: But uh when I uh finished my engineering, when I got a job, I understood that uh you know uh while I was always a backbencher in school and uh I was never studious, I have probably never done homework, right?
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: Always uh I would say a little bit of a nuisance in the class.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: But when I started working, uh I became a sort of a front bencher in the work, right?
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_00: Where uh like people see me as a valuable team member in the cricket field, people started seeing me as a valuable team member at work, right?
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: So my own personal experience taught me that uh academic uh excellence or academic performance and uh how people behave and work at work are uh two different things.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: I might have been a complete uh, you know, for the effort I put in, I should have been a complete flop in academics.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: But maybe because I had some uh you know uh exceptional memory, right?
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: I can just uh read the book once before the exam and go and vomit it in the exam, I could uh do well uh in the exams.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: Without understanding, you know, I can transfer what was in the book to the cancer paper.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: That was a skill I was blessed with.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: But uh when I came to work, I I started understanding everything because I was working.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: Right, I also realized without understanding you can't do anything, and that whole process was enjoyable.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I would say the whole thing about the company.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, uh, when I came back from the US, I felt when I was working in the US, whether it was in Intel or in Python, you know, too much of uh resources were being wasted.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: Meaning uh I felt the four years I worked in India, you know, I was uh contributing a lot, very busy and enjoying the work and things like that.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: In the US, I wasn't uh doing much.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: It was very, very relaxed uh time, and uh you know, most days I used to cook three times a day.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: That's how much time I had in the US.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: And uh so uh when I started the company, I know that you know for every you know uh school first or uh the top three or top two in the class, there are 38 or 40 students who are laggards like me in uh school in class.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, when I started the company, so it was not a thought-through decision, you know, that that's what you are getting, and uh I wasn't complaining because I was one of them.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: Right, because I know that uh you know whether they have studied well or not studied well, if there is uh good common sense and good uh attitude and uh uh you know great willingness to work hard and uh you know and be a great team player, I think nothing can uh stop them.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: Since I was one of them, you know, I know betting on people like me won't be the never be the wrong thing to do.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so the so the biggest point uh you know in one of the interviews that uh you know Sridhar Vembu talks about is he says you laid the foundation for the company.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, uh he says, I never believed that uh you know these people can ever do programming, and Kumar literally uh picked up people, personally did training till the development center became 200 people.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, so what's the kind of training you did to those people at those stages?
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: Because uh literally uh you know you're picking up people who you yourself say were Lagards, and uh and what I what I saw in those interviews was uh I believe you did the training yourself, you built a culture, and this is really very, very critical uh you know uh tenet of how you build a company, which the culture then stays on for decades, right?
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: So, therefore, what is really the important thing that you did to build that kind of a culture?
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I think see, I didn't say, you know, I said I was a Lagarde in in the academics.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I did not say they were Lagards, right?
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe some of them did brilliantly well in uh uh academics also.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I wouldn't know.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, uh like uh so my point is uh uh the academic qualification, right?
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: Meaning whether they were school first or school second, whether they scored uh centum in mathematics or 60 in mathematics, right?
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: That what did they score in science, whether they got first class or second class, whether they can talk in English fluently or not, you know, these things did not matter, right?
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: So what matters is can they work as a team, right?
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: Can do they have uh the empathy, do they listen, you know, do they follow instruction, do they talk back when things matter, right?
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: And uh do they commit, right, and uh do whatever it takes to get the work done, right?
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and are they able to learn?
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: Those are the most uh important things, right?
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: So because in my view, from the day we hired them, I would say most of them who are still with us, or most some of them who live to pursue other opportunities, I have found many rock stars among them, even though they were not uh you know, they were never toppers in their life or whatever, however, they did in academics, because even I wouldn't know for almost most of the cases whether they did well or not in academics, because we just didn't uh uh carab with right.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: So now uh in terms of uh uh the coaching or uh you know training and other things also, I think uh there are two, three things I learnt in my first job in IAT Madras in the teenad group.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I know two, three things of what to do and a few things of what not to do.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: So both I learnt in my first job.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: So uh the fundamental, you know, and the most important thing is to trust.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: So that means uh, you know, um uh for example, from the very beginning, uh we had a leave policy like uh nobody needs to come and inform their manager or me when they are taking leave.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: Right, you don't need permission, you just uh send a mail to the entire team because the team you are working with is the ones who are expecting it to be available at work, right?
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: So and uh in every action, you show trust.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I believe people respond to trust.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: So uh, and so that is one thing uh you know we did uh well in the beginning, and the second thing is uh you know uh all of us are together to learn.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: So, in the sense that uh it is not like uh I know everything, I have been there, done that, or something like that, right?
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: See, remember I was only 25 or 26 at the time, so I was not uh uh like there, it was not I have never been a manager of people or manager of project in the four years I uh four and a half years I had worked in the industry.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: So that means uh, you know, uh in fact one thing I used to tell repeatedly is uh uh if we are going to make a mistake, let's do it now.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: Because uh when we still have when the cost of the mistake is low and when we still have the energy to get up and run.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: So that means that we sort of uh uh you know uh you can even say celebrated making mistakes and uh uh you know we we were every month or every two, three weeks, you know, when something important gets done, there used to be retrospections.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: So this is something I learned uh in my experience with uh Hewlett Packard, right, doing retrospection meetings where everybody can express themselves freely and openly, you know, sets the culture.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: So in the retrospection meetings from the beginning, you know, uh, in fact, I used to joke in the office that uh you know we always uh plan to catch a monkey, but we end up capturing uh Ganesha, right?
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: Meaning uh so we will uh start like start with uh very poorly articulated goal sometimes also, but because we are so engaged, right?
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: We keep uh uh working on it, we find so many improvements that we end up uh uh you know exceeding our expectation of what we wanted to.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: So that kind of bonding, that kind of you know, working alongside people with that single-minded goal of uh you know uh wanting to do uh the best job and having this retrospection where people can openly talk about uh, you know, like I did the planning, people can say my plan uh missed many things, right?
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and where the teamwork was missing, where collaboration was missing, where we made mistakes in understanding requirements of design.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: So people can uh you know talk very openly in those retrospections.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I remember uh even uh uh documenting you know in a 10-member team, having uh 10-12 pages, you know, printed pages of A4 sheets of retrospection feedback, which we categorize, analyze, and put together the improvement plan for the next uh uh you know next sprint, that kind of a thing.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: So uh that whole thing of trust, transparency, you know, mutual respect and uh you know uh openness, right, and we are all together to learn, right?
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: And the mistakes are okay as long as we learn from it and we won't repeat it again.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: It is uh that kind of thing that ended up uh you know having a huge impact.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, link.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: Brilliant.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: Which brings uh brings me to the next question that I had, which is there is uh you know something we talk about, which is the education work gap, where where you really say that uh you know college does not teach what happens at work, and therefore uh the work ethic itself uh is a real issue that you face uh you know in in an organization where uh the person has not been taught in his life prior to starting work about responsibility and accountability itself, right?
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: So, therefore, uh that itself is a I think I thought was uh quite telling when I heard it.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: So uh so therefore, how do you build this responsibility and accountability for somebody who is not being taught this for 18 18 years, suddenly at the age of 21, they come into work and they are talking about responsibility and accountability.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: The person has to can has to change his mental makeup.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: So, how do you uh uh how do you build that because this is very very important in building that culture that you have built.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: See, the thing we do is we give them the responsibility on day one.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: So, in every role, for example, one uh thing we have uh even in our induction, right?
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: Uh first of all, the word training is banned.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: So from day one, the person will be treated as a professional.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: So, and from day one, you know, they have to contribute something to the team.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: So if somebody joins in a new role, it is not like they will not face a customer for three months or something like that.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: Or if a developer joins a new role, it is not like they will not start contributing to the product for the first two months or something like that.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so we bring that responsibility by asking them to contribute on table.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: So that way what happens is uh, you know, since there is an environment of helpfulness, right?
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: So the moment they want to contribute, they may need to know certain things, they may need to ask help with certain people, right?
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: So then they start asking for help.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: They see other people doing, then they do it, they understand where they are.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: So because we give them that responsibility on day one, you know, the environment is more sort of self-selecting in the sense that uh people who enjoy that responsibility and can handle that responsibility are with us on the 181st day, and uh people who don't want that responsibility, and the people you know who think they can come in and do what they are told to do and get told they find this place to be a role place, and but having said that, you know, in our interview process also uh we give a lot of importance to the ownership mindset in assessing whether somebody has that ownership mindset.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: So, how do you find that?
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, see, we uh we have what is called a skill assessment and uh learning capability assessment round.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: Uh for example, uh uh if it's a salesman, right?
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we ask them to sell whatever product they can best sell, you know, if they have experience, right?
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: Whatever product they can best sell, we ask them to sell that to us.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: So during this, we actually push the person, right, and ask various questions.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: For example, you know, uh I I tell you we have one question, you know, like uh it's an angry customer sending a mail, and it comes to you, you are the person who have to respond to that question, right?
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: So when we give this kind of question uh is part of the test we give to all the college graduates, freshers, right?
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: Surprisingly, you know, uh that question, you know, it's a four-line by the customer, upset customer.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: But that four lines, in my view, they are asked there are six things for which a proper response will include six things, you know, six points of response are there in that.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: But uh 80% of the college refreshers will actually say there are some problems in my support team.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: Our management is hiring another support team.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: Once the new support team is hired, you will get a better service, and another 10% will say, you know, we appreciate your problem.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: We are working on a new release of the product.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: You know, please hang on, we will give you the new version free to you.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: Only 1% of the students will actually say, you know, I take responsibility and I will uh come up with a plan or I will come back to you on by when we will address their concerns, but I am responsible from now on.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: You can reach me.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a simple four-line you know escalation mail by a customer.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, I have read probably 2,000, 3,000 responses by students, and it's hilarious to read some of the responses.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: How can people think like this?
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: Great, great.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: So so this whole thing about uh zero follow-up and uh this whole thing that you talk about, uh when you really go about hiring and looking for people, you don't get these kind of people so easily uh because 99% of the market does exactly what you don't do, right?
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: Therefore, uh how do you therefore uh get these skills into the kind uh in because you are a large organization today, you are probably the largest uh you know retail ERP company in the country.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so how do you really uh get these skills into people?
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Because you don't get them ready, mate, right?
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: Therefore, how do you do that?
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, I think uh see uh I say there are many people who want this, right?
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: So it is uh so when we do lateral hire, uh for some of them there is a cultural shock, right?
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: Because they have always uh you know, see one thing with uh uh many experienced people is that uh they they want somebody else to make the decision, right?
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: So, but uh uh uh for example over the last seven, eight years, you know, if somebody has a problem, you know, I have a policy that what is your recommended solution?
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: So you you know you have to tell me three recommended solutions and which is the best solution and why.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: If you are not able to decide between the three, or you want a validation of which one you recommend is the best, then we have a discussion.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, surprisingly, 90% of the problems don't come to me.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: Last five years I would say.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: The victim mindset is to come crying, saying I have a problem.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: The victor mindset is find the solution, talk to the people who can help you implement that solution and get the uh you know, solve the problem.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, uh we talk about this cow in the ditch story, right?
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um so basically, you know, uh uh like uh you know, when when you see a cow in the ditch, right, there are three, four kinds of people.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: People walk past the cow in the ditch as if they didn't see it.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: And there may there are people who may call others to help or inform others that there is a cow in the ditch, help and move on.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: And the third set of people are uh they put in the effort to lift the cow out of the ditch.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: And the fourth set of people are those who not only take out the cow out of the ditch but also make sure they cover the ditch so that no more cow falls in the ditch.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: So we tell people we want all our people to be the fourth type.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: There are too many ditches here and there are many cows in those ditches also.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: So for God's sake, don't just walk past the ditch, you know, as if you have not seen it.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: Report it, right?
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you want this place to be better, you know it's not going to happen by magic, right?
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: One year later, if you say this place is still bad, you are equally responsible.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: So that is the ownership mindset, that is the attitude we want to see in people, right?
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: So for all problem, in fact, I tell them, you know, every problem that is there in the company, I am not the only one responsible for it.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: All of us are equally responsible because you have uh poor sensitivity.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: The problem is so damn important, we have all the resources, all the time, all the energy, you know, everything is there.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: Why don't we then say it is it is it has to be fixed?
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: So that that is a helping in uh you know so the moment people come in, they see that.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: We try to assess this in our uh interviews also.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: We tell them about our culture and this everything.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: But when people join, we also make sure the first time they report a problem, we ask them for solution.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: The first time they share information, we ask them for recommendation.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: So don't share information with me, share your recommendation.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: Why?
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: No, I will say yes or no, because if you share information, I make the decision after analysis, you put in all the hard work, I get all the experience.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: So this is something I tell repeatedly to people.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to translate your effort into experience, you have to come up with the solution.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: Otherwise, effort and suffering are yours, yours and the experience is mine.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: So these things are helping in people, you know, uh understanding.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, some people also, when they interview three-year, five-year experience in the industry, uh, and they come back and say, you know, this guy is like a one-year experience to only, that also gives them pride that whatever vigor we are doing, even if sometimes it is tough, you know, they they can actually, when they talk among their friends, college friends or school friends, you know, they feel they have actually grown up as a professional a lot more than the average industry.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: In our next episode in the Contramines Timeless Wisdom series, we will deep dive again into my conversation with Kumar Vembu on designing and building organizations for employment sustainability, secrets and tips for building products and new features.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: What does it take to build a process for listening to customer pain points, to proactively manage expectations and customer service?
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a lot more in our conversation.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: That's for another day to listen and enjoy.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_01: If you like this episode, please don't hesitate to share, like, and comment, and also share it within your community.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_01: There'll be lots to learn for them too.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for listening.