Latest / The Mookse and the Gripes Podcast / Episode 86: Our Favorite Ten Books of the 21st Century So Far

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Episode 86: Our Favorite Ten Books of the 21st Century So Far · The Mookse and the Gripes Podcast

• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: This is the Mooks and the Gripes podcast.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: Hello, everybody.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: This is Trevor with compliments.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: Paul.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: Paul, how are you doing?
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: I am doing great, actually.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_02: Having a good day.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_02: And are the compliments flowing from me to you or vice versa?
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_02: Or are we just passing them back and forth?
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: To the listeners.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_02: Oh.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: With my compliments.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: I like that.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_02: You're presenting me to the listeners.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_02: I like that.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: Poor listeners.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_02: That's all I have to say.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: No, I think I'm excited.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: As we mentioned to listeners, we and I put this on the Substack.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: I guess it's like there's a bit of a chat option.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're subscribed on Substack, maybe you saw this.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: But we just due to scheduling and various things have to push back our summer book club.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: It'll be the next episode here in a couple of weeks on William Trevor's The Story of Lucy Galt.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: but we had to push it back.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: So we're actually recording this quite early.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: Our Roblox episode just came out today.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: So we're two weeks early with this one.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: I know.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like I just saw you, which is a good thing.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_02: We should start doing this.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we'll just start recording every two days or so.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe we'll just have to start doing that.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: We'll give them little tidbits.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: Five minute episodes every couple of days.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: Soon they'd turn into hour and a half episodes every couple of days, I think.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: I know.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_02: We'd both lose our jobs and just end up like recording from a refrigerator box or something.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: Might be just happy, you know, I don't know.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's true.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_02: As long as there's bookshelves.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: before we get started with our topic today,
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: which I'm excited to chat about,
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: I want to ask you,
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: Paul,
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: what have you been reading?
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I have been reading quite a few things.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_02: And I was thinking about it since we did record so close to the last time.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_02: I am still finishing up.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: I just finished up The Landbreakers, which I talked about.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_02: I literally just finished it up like five minutes ago before we started recording
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_02: and just wanted to say how much I enjoyed that book.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_02: I really did like it.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_02: I forget if you read that one.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't read that one, I don't think.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: I remember when it came out,
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: but that's not...
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: I get it and testing the current just a little bit mixed up in my mind,
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: but it was testing the current that I read.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: I have not read The Landbreakers.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_02: So anyway, yeah, I just finished that up and really liked it.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: But I thought I would use this as a good excuse because we keep kind of hinting and
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: talking around Miss Macintosh,
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_02: my darling.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_02: It comes up so often.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_02: But I thought I could just give a quick update on how that's going for me.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I just wanted to maybe read a little excerpt for some of the people out there
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_02: who may be curious about how it goes.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_02: So the update is that I am, oh, about 101.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_02: 60 pages into it so I'm making decent progress until I look at how much still lies
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_02: ahead of me but you know like I think you mentioned it one of the first times we
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_02: talked about it it is really I loved the way you put it about it's like eating a
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_02: delicious but very rich dessert because part of you is tempted to gobble it but
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_02: realistically after a couple spoonfuls you kind of have to sit back and just savor
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_02: for a while so I don't think at least for me it's not one that lends itself to
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_02: To big chunks.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_02: I've read,
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_02: here and there,
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_02: like 15,
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_02: 20 pages in a sitting,
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_02: but more often it's what you described of five,
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_02: six,
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_02: seven pages.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_02: But it's not one page.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_02: Now that too.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_02: So I want to hear how you're doing on it.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_02: But first, I thought I would just read a quick...
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_02: ish excerpt just to give people a taste of just how beautiful the language is and
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_02: so this is um the narrator vera cartwright talking about her mother who lives in
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_02: kind of this opium induced state in this old dilapidated house and so far it's some
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_02: of my very favorite passages i think they're just haunting so it says my mother
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_02: slept for years her eyes protected from the vulgar sunlight because already her
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_02: visions were too many the mirages the maelstroms the whirlwinds
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_02: her mind being that which could be oriented only through disorientation through
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_02: being forever lost sometimes her eyes enlarged shining in darkness she saw over her
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_02: swollen head red-tinged balloon fishes with all their streamers streaming and she
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_02: was the drowned swimmer caught among these negligee ribbons borne forever downward
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_02: peering stonily at her through miles of opaque, sunless water.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_02: There might be gargoyle faces, gods with their bulging heads, livid mouths, foaming curls.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes she floated dead upon the surface,
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_02: her sightless face shadowed by clouds and seagulls,
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_02: and thus she stayed for hours,
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_02: staring at a dark and watery sky.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_02: She had stayed underwater,
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry, turn the page.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_02: She had stayed underwater for longer than anyone knew,
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_02: never for once losing her consciousness,
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_02: her awareness of events,
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_02: far ripplings,
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_02: movings,
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_02: stirrings,
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_02: shadows.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_02: She had been everywhere in the world of water.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_02: A herd of barking seals would sometimes swim into her sheltered bedroom,
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_02: the Eskimo hunter pursuing with his spear.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes it was a drawing room with great chandeliers of ice,
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_02: frozen fountains,
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_02: cascades reaching from the sky.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_02: she had stayed under earth for six months at a time frozen as crystal had wandered
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_02: through the world of the underground had plucked in that dark abode of shades the
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_02: golden apples of hesperides those which had turned to dust in her mouth had climbed
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_02: jacob's ladder to heaven or some more distant place which was nowhere but in theory
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_02: She had been herself only as she had been projected upon the consciousness of others,
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_02: fragments,
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_02: a spirit easily broken,
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_02: a flickering light that had gone out in minds less responsible and less responsive
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_02: than hers.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_02: I just, it's so amazing, so rich, so beautiful.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_02: I could just sit there and reread that passage over and over again and get
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_02: something new out of it every time.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_02: So I thought,
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_02: like I said,
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_02: that since we were recording so close and I hadn't started anything else new,
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_02: it would be worth kind of revisiting and just sharing a little bit of that because
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_02: it continues just to blow me away.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_02: Every character that we get introduced to, every new chapter is just so good.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_02: So anyway.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_02: How are you making your way through it?
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: I am loving it.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: You're actually past me now.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: I'm about on a page 120.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: I have been doing it quite slowly.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: I've been rereading bits and pieces.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like I reread most of chapter one a little bit ago, just because I'm like,
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: There's something about all of that.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I reread the passages with the mom in her various opioid states of mind and the
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: various images that she sees coming and going and
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: I can't think of his name right now, but the man who is there, maybe.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'm pretty sure he's there.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's so well done.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: To me, it's just a state of mind.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: You started reading that and I'm like, I'm in.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_02: I know.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's so awesome.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have any idea where this is going.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: or what kind of journey we'll be on, or what lessons will have been learned at the end of it.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's just so good as we're going through it.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just so happy that it's out in the world in such a prominent way.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_02: What a gift to all of us to be able to finally read it.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: yeah loving it well speaking of gifts i mean both of us pre-ordered um a copy of
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: what i think maybe you pre-ordered it from deep vellum uh shot and fro that comes
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: out next like a little bit more than a year from now yeah exactly mistaken it's
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: michael lintz's um shot and fro and
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: Edited by Matthias Friedrich and then translated by Max Lawton,
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: who's been doing so many books for NYRB Classics,
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: Dalky,
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: Deep Velen,
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: probably others that I'm not thinking of.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: And then I got an email from Deep Velen today that just has a bunch of their big
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: books that are coming out over the next three or four years.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, me too.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: With this one kind of being the big or the start of this
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: this little project that they've got going with Max Lawton to get some of these
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: major works that are otherwise probably wouldn't be getting picked up,
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: you know?
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_02: No, I think there's no way a lot of them would be getting picked up.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, they give Andre, our friend Andre from the untranslated credit.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, there's a reason his blog is called the untranslated.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: These are ones that probably wouldn't make it.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: But fortunately, you know, they are coming.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: So thank goodness.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_02: I can't believe like what, like you said, a gift.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, just it's amazing.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I saw that Andre posted today just an hour ago or so.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_02: He said out of the 10 best untranslated novels on my blog, four have now been crossed out.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_02: So they've either been published or they're in the works.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: Or they're no longer the best.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's right.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe that's it.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_02: No, but just what an amazing thing between, you know, Will Evans and the rest of the team at Deep Vellum.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, Andre's role in that.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_02: Max Lawton's role in that.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_02: Man, it's just amazing.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_02: Five years ago, we wouldn't have thought any of these would even be realistically available to us.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_02: And the fact that they're making it.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_02: a big enough goal and project that they're actually sending out an email and like committing to it.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_02: And, oh man, I'm so excited.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: And speaking of pre-ordering,
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: we found out that our good friend,
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: Mark Haber's book,
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: lesser ruins that comes out in October from coffee house,
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: If you pre-order from Coffeehouse, he's signing every pre-ordered copy.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: So we'll bring that up again because I think that's a pretty cool little perk.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's a really cool perk.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_02: And we all know the whole thing about how pre-ordering is such a huge boost for the
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_02: publishing house and the author.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_02: So...
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_02: for them to,
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_02: give you a little extra cherry on top with it being signed,
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_02: I think is really smart and really fun.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_02: But I,
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_02: I would obviously encourage people anyways to,
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_02: to pre-order as often as they can to help these books that you love and these
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_02: authors that you love and these publishers that we all love.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, so exciting.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, all right.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's, that's what you've been reading.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: There's your portion done with the reading.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: What about you?
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: So not quite in the same vein, but still quite intriguing to me.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: I'm reading Paul Tremblay's newest novel horror movie.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: Have you seen it?
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_02: I have seen it.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_02: We had a copy in the bookstore and what a cool cover for one thing.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, nice VHS or, you know, oh man.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_02: Reminded me a little bit of the John Darnielle book.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: About the harvester.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: There's a bit of a feel for me with this one.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: It is a little bit meta.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: So the basic premise is there's someone, you know, actually probably about
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: a little older than us,
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: let's say,
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: who in 20,
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: in the 2020s,
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: he is the only surviving cast member.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: I believe the only surviving cast member of kind of a horror movie that was being filmed in 1993.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, some acquaintances of his, he was cast as the thin kid and, um,
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: The book goes back and forth between the past production of this horror movie.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: And then to the present where the, the horror movie never got finished.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know why yet.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: I'll find out probably for no big reason, you know, just got bored or something.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sensing, sensing something, something sinister.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: But some of it leaked online through YouTube and blogs and such to where it's got a
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: cult following and people haven't even been able to see the completed film.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: So Hollywood studio is wanting to,
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: finally do it and so he's also kind of part of the new production and anyway it's
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: very sinister very kind of twisted but
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: quite interesting.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: Well done.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm, I'm hooked and I'm maybe a third of the way through it.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's short, so I'll be finishing it pretty soon, but yeah, I'm really enjoying it.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: I've never read Paul Tremblay.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: I've got my son's birthday was just a little bit ago and he bought a head full of
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: ghosts and cabin at the end of the woods.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm, I read the premise and I thought, Holy cow, those both look awesome.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: And then, uh, I had an opportunity to start reading horror movie and it was short.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I said, okay, I'll do this one.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_02: No,
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_02: I've,
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_02: I've read a couple of his and yeah,
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_02: I would highly recommend that you keep going with them because beyond the fact that
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_02: he has really cool ideas,
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_02: which is so much of the importance of a,
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_02: of a horror writer,
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_02: I think he does a nice job of pulling them off,
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_02: which,
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_02: like we've said is,
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_02: is tends to be one of the weaknesses and one of the biggest disappointments for me
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_02: with most horror movies and books is the inability to stick the landing and,
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't know.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I would have to revisit them to remember exactly how well I thought he stuck the landing.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_02: But I do remember that none of the endings have been disappointing by any means.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_02: And the premises have been all so intriguing.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_02: I really like that.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, I'm looking forward.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_02: That one sounds really good.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you probably could read it at the bookstore next time you're in there.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like I say, it's pretty short.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I like that.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_02: Very cool.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_02: There's been a,
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_02: I've noticed there's been a kind of a,
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_02: not a resurgence because there's always a steady flow of horror books,
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_02: but like this year so far,
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_02: Stephen King's new collection of short stories,
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_02: the Paul Tremblay book,
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_02: and then Stephen Graham Jones has had one,
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_02: if not two books come out because he has a new one that's kind of a take on the
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_02: whole slasher genre.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_02: As well as,
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_02: I can't remember if the third book of his,
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_02: Your Heart is a Chainsaw trilogy came out either late last year or early this year,
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_02: but it's kind of cool just to see that there's,
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_02: again I don't want to say resurgence because I don't feel like horror ever really
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_02: goes away but I like right now that there's a lot of cool things happening with
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_02: well known horror authors
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: And we talked about this.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: I don't read a ton of horror.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: I watch horror movies and I do feel like we're in a bit of a special period of horror movies.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of really interesting movies that have been coming out over the last,
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: like you said,
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: it's never quite gone.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: It just feels like there's maybe something special in the air.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I agree.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_02: No, it's fun.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_02: I like it.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: All that aside here today, because no one's gotten enough of it quite yet.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: We are going to be talking not about the New York Times list,
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: the 100 best books of the 21st century,
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: but we're using that as a springboard.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we'll talk about.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: that list a little bit.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: We've seen it on social media all over the place.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, how many of you read, how many do you want to read all that kind of stuff?
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: What's good, what's bad.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: Are they,
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: this reflect what,
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: all that kind of stuff has been going all over the place,
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: but because we had to shuffle some things around,
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: we thought it would be just a fun episode to do that.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: We talk about our 10,
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: our top 10 books of the 21st century so far,
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: it's been a quarter of a century and,
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: what ones are your top 10?
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: And we kind of batted this around.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: Did we land that we aren't mentioning any honorable mentions?
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: We are doing the tough thing and just... Because that always gives you an escape hatch.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: I know.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: I guess we probably should.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: You talked me into it.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: Because then you can put all the books you should mention there and focus on ones that...
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: maybe aren't in your top 10, but you feel too bad.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I thought this might really put the pressure on and say, look, you got 10 slots.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have any extra paper.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: I like that.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_02: Unless the only other alternative I can think of is that we extend this to like a
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_02: five hour episode and do our top 100.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: Top 100.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it was hard.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: I probably do have a hundred that I could, could list here.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: Me too.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: But, but yeah.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: The New York Times list was interesting.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: for me,
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: it looked like a great list to see what the New York Times book review coverage has
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: been over the last quarter century.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_02: That's fair.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_02: But there were some pleasant surprises,
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_02: I will say,
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_02: along the way that I didn't necessarily expect to be on there or to be so high.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, a lot of it was, you know.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_02: Probably fairly predictable, but I don't know.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_02: We've talked about these lists before.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_02: Go ahead.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I was going to say, predictable, I think it's inevitable, isn't it?
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: Whenever you get this kind of list where you source it from a bunch of different people,
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: as you get going,
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: all of the rough edges and unique choices are going to get shaved off as a
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: consensus grows around the ones that...
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: More people read and liked.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: So they voted for them in greater numbers.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe they were all their number 10 spot,
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: but it ends up being,
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: because of that,
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: the number one book of the first quarter century.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: More gems, I think, are likely to get lost because not as many people read them.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: We can't read anything and neither could the people putting together this list.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think it's fun to see a consensus list
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: But that's all this is, right?
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so we're here to talk more about our particular list, which does certainly have some overlap.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it does.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_02: I have a few that are on there.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_02: And the thing I'll say about lists like this is I know a lot of people
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_02: you know rightly get a little not huffy but like people roll their eyes or they get
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_02: a little critical but i don't know i i kind of like it i think it's fun i think
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_02: it's i like when people make big bold lists and just like go for it thousand one
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_02: books you should read before you die or whatever like of course you're never going
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_02: to get them all and there's going to be plenty of
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_02: debate but at the same time we've all been talking about books and like bringing up
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_02: our favorites and i mean that's what it's all about so to me i love these just as a
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_02: springboard for getting the conversation going and i don't tend to get grumpy about
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_02: it i think it's just in the spirit of what we always talk about who's ever going to
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_02: argue about you know books being this prominent on social media for an entire month
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_02: or whatever so
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: and far be it from us who often have a top five or something list in our episodes
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: to say a list is a bad thing,
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that we recognize that the fun is in the conversation around it.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, who cares about the list itself to a certain extent?
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: You know, in five years, it would be different than it is today.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: clearly,
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: because there'd be five more years,
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: but even if it were the best books of the first quarter century,
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: that list will continue to change.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: And,
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: if you didn't do the New York Times,
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: but you did,
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: some,
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: maybe there's the Times or,
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: from various places or,
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: in our circles,
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: if we did something a little bit more focused on our favorite presses,
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: It would be completely different.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: And that's all good.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: But it is about it's about the conversation and the debate.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's not about the list.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: Therefore,
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: we're not really going to touch on the list all that much unless there's something
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: you want to say about it.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_02: No, I think a couple of mine on my list.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_02: When they do overlap, I might just bring it up.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_02: And there's a few times where I read a little bit from what one of the voters said about it.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_02: So some stuff like that, we might touch on it kind of sparingly throughout this conversation.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_02: But no, I really like it.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_02: what you proposed to me,
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_02: which was for us to step out off the end of the plank and try to come up with our
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_02: top 10 books of the first part of the century.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_02: it's,
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_02: I almost feel like this was harder than some of our best end of the year stuff,
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_02: which would make sense because there's more books,
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_02: but this is like where the rubber hits the road,
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_02: where all these books that I think of as my all-time favorites.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_02: You know, seeing where they fall within the time period, but then making some really tough decisions.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_02: Kill your darlings, right?
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what I asked you to do.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: We also talked about what does it mean?
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: Are we putting down what we think are the best books, whatever that means?
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, you know, I might recommend, but I don't know if you did it.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: I genuinely want to know your favorite 10 books, not the ones you think should be highlighted more.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: Because,
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: let's say your favorite book is the,
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: the same,
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: whatever the Elena Ferrante book was,
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: The Lost Child or whichever one it was.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: My Brilliant Friend, I think.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: My Brilliant Friend.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: And it's the same one.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: And you're like, well, I can't pick that because it's already on the list.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: People are talking about it.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: I'll better do something.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to sub in something.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I said...
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: you know, to the, I think it would be fun to not do that.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: I don't, I want to know even if it's the consensus, what your actual top 10 is.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: Did you, did you do that for me?
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_02: I sure tried.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_02: I sure tried.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_02: I won't say it is so interesting.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_02: It,
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_02: analyzing your own psychology as you make these lists,
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_02: at least for me,
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_02: because there's all these different narratives that are going inside of course,
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_02: like how it's going to be perceived versus what's like the one that just brought
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_02: you the most joy versus like you said,
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_02: if it's already on everything else's list,
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_02: do I want to try to be unique?
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I tried to cancel all that out and just go with the straight list,
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_02: whether or not I succeeded,
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_02: I guess no one will ever know,
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_02: including probably myself,
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_02: but I definitely tried.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: even that would be tough.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like I agree with you because I don't know.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: I,
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: I,
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: spoiler,
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: I did not put like a Brandon Sanderson book on here,
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: even though I've gotten so much joy from reading some of those books,
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: and most of,
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: I read every Harry Potter book during this time period.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: And for various reasons, it's, it's not on here, um, for, of my list, but,
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: so what do I mean by my favorites?
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: is it the way I like to see myself or is it,
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: is it that my favorite ones,
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: because they gave me the most,
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: just,
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: I just have to keep on reading that.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I kind of thought,
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think my favorite ones are the ones that shook me the most that made me really
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: stop and go,
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: Whoa,
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: they're like moments in,
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: in my development.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: And not just moments of enjoyment.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_02: No, I think that's exactly right.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_02: There may be a couple that I'll have to think about that because the enjoyment part
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_02: might've come in on a couple,
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_02: but I don't think so.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_02: I think what you just said,
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_02: it's for various reasons,
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_02: the ones that shook me to my core,
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_02: that challenged me so much that I can't stop thinking about them.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: Which enjoyment can be that too.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: It can still be something that stops you in your tracks.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: You're just so
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_02: happy about what you're reading you know yeah for sure and I'll get into it a
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_02: little bit but I think a couple of them also almost taught me new ways to read or
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_02: like exposed me to a whole new type of not new type of literature but like expanded
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_02: my horizons to different types of literature or what different genres are capable
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_02: of things like that so I do think it's
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_02: its best and favorite kind of blended together.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, I think you're right.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_02: I think for something to make this list for the most part,
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_02: for me,
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_02: it had to be something that I feel like is going to just stick with me potentially
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_02: for life,
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_02: because when you're getting into 25 years,
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_02: that's a big chunk.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_02: So for it to rise to the top,
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_02: I think that that is kind of one of the main criteria I was trying to,
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if I was trying to use it,
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_02: but that's kind of,
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_02: as you watch the certain ones climb to the top,
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_02: I think that was one of the things that did it for sure.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we both have 10 books to talk about.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: So that's 20 books.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: We'll probably be relatively brief, but I will put these in the show notes as well.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: So listeners, we'll talk about them and probably bandy about some thoughts.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: But I didn't sit down and pull up portions of each book.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just going to list them and tell a little bit about my reading experience with them.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: Paul and I did go over this first, so he may have a different approach.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: But in general, we're...
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: Also hoping that we can get the conversation going about our lists a little bit
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: with you and your lists,
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: listeners,
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: or even just some of your favorites.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: If you're like, I don't do lists, I don't do top, favorite, best, whatever list.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: what's one of your most delightful,
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: however that can be used,
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: favorite reads of the last 25 years or favorite books that's been published in the
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: last 25 years?
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: I'd love to hear them from you.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, me too.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_02: Send them in as many as you feel like you can do.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_02: Like you said, if you're not up for a list, that's fine.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_02: But I would love to see if people were willing to share their list.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_02: That would be fun.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_02: Put them through the same torture that I've just gone through.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, exactly.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: All right, Paul.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: Well, do you want to kick us off with your number 10?
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_02: So my number 10 is Empathy Exams by Leslie Jameson.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_02: Obviously, we're viewing these lists through our own kind of personal lenses.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_02: And over the last few decades,
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_02: I was thinking about it and essays have just become one of my favorite types of literature.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's happened kind of over this this time period.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_02: And this collection,
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_02: as I was thinking about it,
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_02: is one of the main reasons why it was one of my I'm sure I've read plenty of essays before,
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_02: but it was one of the first essay collections that I feel like just really blew me
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_02: away and kind of just started to build that love for me.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_02: I don't actually remember how it came onto my radar.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_02: But I think what it did was just expand my view of what essays are capable of.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_02: The way she does it is just so interesting.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_02: Each essay in this collection kind of circles around these general ideas of like
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_02: compassion and empathy and pain.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_02: But the way she approaches them is so interesting.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_02: different than anything that I had come across before.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_02: she goes through all these different types of emotions and she kind of does it like
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_02: in a travelogue kind of a format where she's like one of the essays she's talking
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_02: about working as a simulated patient where she's given the name and symptoms of a disease.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_02: And then she's supposed to kind of act them out.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_02: And it's to train medical people.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_02: in the art of diagnosing and treating their fake maladies.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_02: So there's like this view of, of empathy.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_02: And then another one she's talking about, like my favorite essay is probably this.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_02: She goes to this conference with a group of people who suffer from this condition called Morgellons.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_02: And it's basically this condition where they believe that they have these strange
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_02: fibers growing out of their skin.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_02: And so they always feel like there's like bugs under their skin.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_02: And it's one of those things where, you know, from our perspective, it is not true that,
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_02: But she doesn't focus on whether or not the condition is verifiable or real.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_02: She just focuses on their suffering and kind of like empathizes with them.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_02: And so anyway, the way she approaches all these different things just really blew me away.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_02: And on top of all that,
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_02: it's one of those books where you're jotting down lots of other books to read
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_02: because she's like citing,
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_02: Susan Sontag and Virginia Woolf and all these other people along the way.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_02: All of that.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_02: This is going to be probably the way it's going to go for me on this,
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_02: because when you start talking about books you love,
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_02: I get very gushy.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_02: But I don't know.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_02: This book is just one of your favorites of the last 25 years.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: It is.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: Could you tell?
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_02: And since then, I've loved everything that she's written since then.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_02: But I think because this was the first one I read by her.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_02: And like I said, just for where it kind of came at that part of my life where it introduced me to
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_02: the depths of what essays are capable of, I think is why it means so much to me.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, that's my number 10.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: Cool.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: I like that.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: I have not read it.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm glad to, glad to have this opportunity to think about it and get in there.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: My number 10 is a book by Damon Galgut.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: He won the Booker a couple of years ago, but that's not the one that I'm going to pick because,
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: Because I haven't read it yet.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's called The Promise, I believe, is that one.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_00: But the one that I read,
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: I've read several of his,
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: but the one that I put on this list is In a Strange Room from 2010.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: At that time in particular, I was reading a lot of walk and wander books.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, Robert Valser, Teju Cole's Open City came out around that same time.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: Sergio Chafex books.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I love them all so much.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: I love the idea of using that as a springboard for
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: wandering thoughts as well and in a strange room has three kind of sections to it
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: there's a wanderer you know someone walking around in greece africa and then india
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: and the situations the the examination of the self that this book gets into um
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: I loved it, clearly.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe we should just, we loved these books, right?
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, clearly, that's why we're talking about them.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: But I still think back so fondly upon my reading experience with this one.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a book, I think it was around the same time the Kindle came out.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: And it wasn't available in the US yet in any kind of published form when it was
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: announced that it was on the Booker long list.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so I just bought it for the Kindle.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't have a Kindle.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I read it on my phone.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: I hate that experience, but I loved it with this book.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: I could have read this one in any format I would have really enjoyed In a Strange
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: Room by Damon Gallagher.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's a great choice.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_02: I love that book.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I will say that his new one, latest one is amazing too.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I have a couple of his other ones that I keep kind of savoring,
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_02: like we've talked about and haven't read,
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_02: but he's just one of those authors.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_02: Like you said,
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_02: it's not like he's not well known because he's been nominated for some pretty big prizes,
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_02: but I still feel like somehow,
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_02: at least in my eyes,
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_02: he never gets as much credit as he deserves still.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: I agree with you there.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I'm glad you brought in a walking book because as you know, that's my favorite.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_02: I think we're going to have, I would predict we're going to have some overlaps on our lists.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_02: I could be wrong.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_02: We've said that before and we don't always, but this is one that could be an overlap.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_02: Number nine for me, um, is a pretty new one.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_02: When we cease to understand the world by Benjamin Lovato translated by Adrian Nathan West.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um,
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_02: Several books on my list walk the line between fiction and nonfiction,
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_02: which is something that I really have enjoyed more and more lately,
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_02: how that line doesn't matter so much.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_02: Obviously,
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_02: we've talked about this one before,
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_02: but it focuses on some very real personalities and some well-known historical figures,
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_02: Niels Bohr and Heisenberg and Schrodinger.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_02: But obviously, it takes a lot of artistic liberty with them.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_02: I know you're a huge fan of this book too,
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_02: so I don't have to sell you on it,
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_02: but I found it just so mesmerizing and hypnotic and unlike anything I remember
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_02: reading before,
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_02: the way he kind of focuses on the balance between the inescapable genius of these people,
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_02: their passion,
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_02: their drive,
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_02: and their creativity.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_02: And often they're well-intentioned starting points.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_02: none of them started out trying to create,
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_02: weapons of mass destruction necessarily,
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_02: but often it came from a different place.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_02: But I love how Labatute then also doesn't shy away from the unintended consequences,
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_02: the hubris of doing something like this.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_02: And,
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_02: these Pandora's boxes that they're opening in the name of science and then just
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_02: kind of watching as everything unfolds.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_02: So this was one of those that I was going to say actually was on the official New
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_02: York Times list of top 100.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_02: It was number 83.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I was just going to read real quickly what A.O.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_02: Scott says in his review of it.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_02: He says,
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_02: Labatude is interested in how the pursuit of scientific certainty can lead to or
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_02: arise from states of extreme psychological and spiritual upheaval.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_02: And then he says his characters discover a universe that defies rational comprehension.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I really liked that.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_02: It's just that
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_02: Getting beyond like it is science,
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_02: but then it gets into these other realms of beyond that,
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_02: like I don't even know,
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_02: like psychological and spiritual upheaval is such a great way to say it.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, I also will say I read his latest book, The Maniac, just recently.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_02: And honestly, it shares so many of the same themes and the same style.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_02: I almost could have put that one on this list.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it really was.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_02: It blew me away in the same ways that this one did.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, I saw this one popping up on a lot of top 10 lists for other people.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's one of those where I may have had a moment where I was like,
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_02: Oh,
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_02: is this a little too on the nose,
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_02: but I just couldn't make this list without it appearing on there.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_02: Cause I just thought it was outstanding.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not on my list, but it was definitely in contention.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I almost wonder if one of the reasons it's not is because I loved the maniac so
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_00: much as well,
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_00: and I couldn't decide.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so I thought,
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know, maybe it's some recency bias.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: I kind of imagine that in some time,
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: a lot of other books will kind of drift away,
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: but those books won't for me.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, it's true.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm glad you mentioned recency bias because I was talking about all those
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_02: warring factions in my head as I'm doing this.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_02: And it's definitely something I thought about and I tried to project down the road and
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_02: what I would think of this book in another 25 years.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I just can't imagine a world where this would not still be really high on my list.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_02: Cause like I said,
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like just the writing,
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_02: but also just the themes that he's wrestling with and the way he did it and the
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_02: intelligence and the curiosity of the writing.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like that's one of those things that will just, you know, weather well down through the years.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_02: I'd be curious to see, maybe we'll do this in 25 years and we can check back and see.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we'll see.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: Well, recency bias, you know, definitely might play a factor in my next one, too.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm not I didn't I didn't avoid it.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: OK, but I and I and I was like, did I?
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: You tell me.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_00: This might be a little bit strange, but The Employees by Olga Raven, translated by Martin Aiken.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_00: That is a book that has remained with me ever since I read it.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's so unique and strange, this little science fiction-y thing that was going on with it.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: I thought that it was so much thought.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: And it kind of has some similarities with When We Cease to Understand the World in
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: that it's looking at...
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: how we experience the world and how others,
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: or non-biological life,
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_00: whatever might experience the world,
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_00: but not from the typical,
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_00: the kind of typical way that I,
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: that I see with,
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: with other AI kind of books and all of that.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: These are, this was very humane while, while still stretching that border and,
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, just it is stuck with me, but it's probably the newest book on my list.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I only read it maybe a year ago or thereabouts.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, just again, and your recommendation, did I did I pull this one out?
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, you know, again, those warring factions, like you said, I was like, well, I can't.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_00: I can't put that on.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: But as I was looking at the books that were in contention,
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_00: I kept on thinking,
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_00: no,
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: that's the one I want to reread.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the one I'm thinking about the most.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the one that I think will stick with me and that I will continue to
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_00: to use to gauge my own perspective on the world.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: So the employees.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_02: I would not have predicted it.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_02: But now that you say it,
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_02: it makes total sense because I think of it's almost like a modern art piece or
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_02: something where it's like so outside of what you're used to reading or experiencing
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_02: that it's just one of those that for me has really stuck in my brain.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't know, I just find myself
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_02: trying to puzzle it out and think about it all the time.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_02: So no,
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_02: I think she's a fascinating author and I'm really looking forward to seeing where
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_02: she continues to go.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_02: So no, I love that choice.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's a great one.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_00: Excellent.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: Your next one, number eight.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_02: Another thing people might notice is these are all books that I think I've talked
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_02: about them because clearly,
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_02: if they're going to mean this much to us,
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_02: they've probably come up before.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_02: And that's certainly the case with this one,
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_02: which is Flights by Olga Tokarczyk,
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_02: translated by Jennifer Croft.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_02: This book was my introduction to Tokarczyk.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_02: And it was also one of my first entry points and maybe my very first entry point into a kind of
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_02: literature that I really find myself drawn to more and more,
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_02: the fragmented,
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_02: kind of hard to define literature that we're seeing more and more of over the last couple,
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_02: probably the last decade or so.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_02: I was looking through some of the reviews of this one and James Wood, I really liked what he said.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_02: He called it exciting in the way that unclassifiable things are exciting, at times confoundingly so.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I really liked that.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_02: This book is just such a weird hodgepodge of things.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_02: It's
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's a mix of, some of it feels like memoir and essays, some of it feels more like a novel.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_02: It takes place in airports and hotel lobbies and,
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_02: all over the world because a lot of it's focused on travel.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know,
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_02: she mentions Moby Dick a lot in this book and I feel like there's a lot of
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_02: connections there just that,
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_02: the encyclopedic chapters of Moby Dick where he's just going off on a weird tangent
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_02: and just listing things and in the moment you don't know what's going on but then
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_02: when you finish the book,
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_02: it all makes perfect sense I kind of feel like that's how this one works for me too.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_02: So,
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_02: yeah,
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_02: I just like the way she zooms in in a microscopic way on all these little bizarre things,
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_02: the disconnection of travel and the liminal spaces that you experience when you're
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_02: in hotels and airports.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, she veers off into all these like bizarre and strange like medical conditions and things.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_02: So it's just an odd hodgepodge of a book.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_02: And yet, whenever I think of it, it just...
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know, it's just something about it.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_02: It's almost magical.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_02: It just, I can't get it out of my head.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_02: So I know a lot of people with Tukartik,
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_02: they mentioned Drive Your Plow or the books of Jacob,
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_02: which I still need to read,
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_02: by the way.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_02: But for me, this is the book that I will always think of first and foremost with her.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_02: And I also feel like it's kind of been something that's pushed me into other books like,
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_02: Kate Zambrino and even Benjamin Labatut,
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_02: some of that weird,
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_02: hard to define literature where you don't fully know what's going on and it's bits
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_02: and pieces kind of squished together but yeah more and more i find that being one
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_02: of my favorite types of books and this is probably the best example of that i can
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_02: think of so yeah flights
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_00: The one I haven't read, but we'll put on later on.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_00: We're looking at some that we think if we had read them would maybe make our list or be contenders.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's one of them on mine.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: Nice.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think so.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_02: Now that I've put so much pressure on it, though, there's no way I could ever live up to it.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_00: I just, like I say, I just picked The Employees by Olga Raven.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't think that that always ruins it for me.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_00: Good point.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_00: Good point.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_00: my next one that I'm going to put out there is Louise Erdrich's La Rose,
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_00: which of all the books she's published this quarter century,
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_00: seems to be one that not very many people talk about.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_00: But is, again, one of those books that I've always really liked her work.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_00: This one just really struck me from from page one.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's a it's about.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's trying to make amends and doing it in a way that is deeply connected to family
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_00: and found family and all of this,
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_00: these these.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_00: This situation that's so tragic to begin with and such a unique way of trying to resolve it.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to say too much because the book opens with such a shocking scene that
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_00: is definitely one of the reasons that I like it so much that I'll just leave it at that.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want people to know what happens.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_00: Just go read the first...
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_00: pages that lead to such strong grief and sorrow and acceptance, ultimately, of what has happened.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_00: And just how Louise Erdrich examines these themes of connection and generational connection.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_00: And it's...
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_00: it's so good.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_00: I wish more people talked about La Rose.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's, it's, it's just wonderful.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_02: After you mentioned it in one of our last couple episodes, I did immediately go and add it to my, um,
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_02: to my library list.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_02: So I will definitely be tackling that one soon and can't wait to, to check it out.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_02: Cause like I said,
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_02: I'm continually intrigued by her and I've really enjoyed the bits and pieces of her
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_02: work that I've tried so far.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and as you said, I, I hope I didn't ruin it by putting your expectations too high.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, I think by now this is a safe place.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_02: We've both given each other enough great recommendations that actually paid off
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_02: that I feel pretty safe in that.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_02: So,
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_02: So my number seven, speaking of recency bias, Red Comet.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I just, oh boy, this book, it was only late last year.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I've talked about it.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_02: I experienced most of it through audio book while I was taking long walks and on my commutes.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I just, I've mentioned this before, but it just was one of the most haunting experiences.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_02: Just listening to this masterful biography and,
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_02: As I walked through, you know, the snowy park and just kind of felt very immersed in it.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_02: I guess a list like this is a good place for hyperbole,
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_02: but I don't feel like this is hyperbole when I'll just double down and say this is
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_02: the best biography I've ever read.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_02: in my life.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_02: And it's just such a good example of what a biography can do.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_02: I think that not only captures her life and her relationships in a very,
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_02: I felt like even handed and fair way,
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_02: but like we've talked about,
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_02: I think what sets it apart even more is
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_02: the ability to not just be distracted by the tragedy of her life,
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_02: although it does definitely touch on that,
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: but it focuses on her as a person and an artist.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I think,
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_02: like we've said,
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_02: some of the sections where it digs into the poems and the analysis that Heather
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_02: Clark does,
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_02: those could be broken out of this book and just published on their own,
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like,
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_02: as literary criticism that I would still want to read.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_02: The fact that that's packaged inside of this giant, whatever it is, 700-page biography that has
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_02: you know, a million other things going for it.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_02: Like I said, it's just unlike anything that I've read before as far as, you know, the biography genre.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_02: At the bookstore, I've actually hand-sold a couple of them now.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_02: It makes me happy every time because it is a big book and I know it's daunting.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_02: But what I've been telling people is just don't let the size scare you away because
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like it's all justified.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_02: It's not baggy.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_02: There's value to every single page.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I think it should be read by everyone, whether they're interested in Plath specifically or not.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, obviously that would help.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_02: But just I think it's so great on art and creativity and just,
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_02: all the struggles of being a human that even outside of being a fan of Plath,
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like you get so much value out of it.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_02: So,
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_02: yeah,
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_02: I couldn't believe that that one,
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_02: having read it so recently,
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_02: kept I just couldn't get it off the list.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_02: And in fact, it climbed all the way up to number seven for me.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if I should not say anything because it didn't make my list, but it was close.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_00: It seems like I'm cheating and letting you know my honorable mentions with To
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_00: Understand the World and Red Comet.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_00: But again, both of those were books I wrote down and were late scratches that definitely won't be on it.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_02: thanks only because then maybe i'll get a chance to do that later we'll see maybe
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_00: i'm i am curious i hope to return the favor but we'll see i know the next one's not
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_00: going to be one for you um but i because i hate it so much maybe it's gilead by
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_00: marilyn robinson not one of your favorites i know it's not one of my favorites but
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_02: yeah um
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_00: and you know,
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_00: a lot of people that have read it recently,
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_00: it's not been,
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_00: not only just not a favorite,
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_00: but a book that they've actively kind of disliked.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_00: And it's made me question my own appreciation of it and the books that came
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_00: afterwards in the same series.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_00: But I have gone back to it and with things in mind, you know, that this is not about a perfect person.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_00: this is actually someone who may be quite damaged and blind and,
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_00: in his elderly wisdom,
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_00: not wise at all.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I've realized that, yeah, I saw that.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_00: And it's one of the reasons that I kind of felt it was so human and really enjoyed
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_00: the way he's trying to present himself to his son versus what we can see is who he is.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_00: And yet for me, quite...
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_00: maybe uncomfortably familiar things that I'm,
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_00: this is a book that first off just reading about its portions on love and
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_00: relationships that affected how I see things.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_00: the,
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_00: the,
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_00: the realization,
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_00: that he goes through in the book that maybe he doesn't completely accept,
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_00: but nevertheless,
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_00: kind of has to grapple with when it comes to his best friend's son and their relationship.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_00: still something that that makes me try to be a more careful thoughtful person if i
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_00: possibly can and so i couldn't leave it off of this list uh i and i've loved every
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_00: one of the ones that have come afterwards too in this in this series by marilyn
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_00: robinson
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_02: And what you said about sometimes questioning, you know, your own views based on reactions of others.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I feel the exact same way with, and it wasn't that I disliked it.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_02: It just,
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know,
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_02: again,
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_02: if it was a matter of expectations,
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_02: but whatever that set aside,
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_02: the fact that you and so many other people that I,
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_02: I trust are,
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_02: think so highly of it does make me want to go back and revisit it because there's
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_02: clearly times where you read something that we've talked about where at that time,
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_02: it just doesn't work for you,
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_02: but that is no fault of the book.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, no, I think that's a wonderful, and I really like that.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_02: I know that book has meant so much to you.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it's important to
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_02: even if you were the only person on earth who thought that was a great book,
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_02: which is certainly not the case.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_02: I think there's something to be said for like, no, this book is powerful and means that much to me.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_02: So no, I really liked that choice.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_02: if there's a book on my list that walks the line of fun while also still being a
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_02: very foundational book for me,
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_02: this is definitely the one and it's Jonathan strange and Mr.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_02: Norell by Suzanne Clark.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um,
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_02: It's hard for me to even explain how much I love this book,
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_02: how often I think about it,
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_02: how much of an impact it's had on me as a reader and even a person over the last,
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_02: however long it's been since it came out.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_02: We've talked a lot about how in our youth,
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_02: fantasy books had such a huge part of our life and how much of our sense of self
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_02: was built around just the books we read and our relationships with our family
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_02: through these books and all that stuff.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that does play into all this.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_02: And I think one of the reasons that it means so much to me is it hit me at such a
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_02: perfect time in my life where I was coming out of some of that early childhood and
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_02: the fantasy influences.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_02: But it was like a really good gateway book for me that still had a lot of that magic and fun that I love.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_02: But it also took it in new directions and darker directions and more literary directions,
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_02: if that's the right way to say it.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think that's one of the things that I love so much about it.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, beyond all that, I think Clark is just an amazing writer.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_02: Some of the scenes that she puts in this book,
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_02: like I can still see them in my mind and it,
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_02: I haven't,
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_02: I've reread it,
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_02: once I've read it twice,
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_02: but I feel like it's so strong that I,
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_02: I read it yesterday.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um,
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_02: I really love also how it leaned into some of its Dickensian tendencies instead of like pulling punches.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_02: She just doubled down and made it even longer and added these almost comically long
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_02: footnotes that go on for pages and pages at times,
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_02: but add so much detail and depth to her world building and and to,
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_02: just the authenticity of this book that I kind of really respect that that she
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_02: didn't back down.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_02: She took a decade and she just did it her way.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_02: On top of all that,
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_02: I think some of the characters,
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_02: just the friendship and rivalry of the two main characters is so compelling and realistic.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_02: And it's just it's one of those relationships in literature that I just absolutely love it.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_02: So,
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_02: I've mentioned before it came out originally right around my birthday in October
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_02: and literally every year when it's the leaves start to change and you get the chill
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_02: in the air,
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_02: this book comes to mind and it's just one of those that.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_02: you know, not only do I think of it fondly, but I really do think of it as a formational book for me.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I don't know.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_02: I just, we keep saying we love it, but I do.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_02: I love it so much.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_00: I do love this one.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I love it too.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_00: And here's the cool thing.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's my number six also.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_00: Is it really?
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's amazing.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'd love Piranesi.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_00: But as I sat and thought about these two books,
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_00: I realized,
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_00: hey,
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_00: if it weren't for Jonathan Strange and Mr.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_00: Norell,
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_00: that's just a big part of my reading experience over the last quarter century.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's so big because it's big.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_00: But the footnotes, like you say, the Dickensian nature of all of the goings-ons,
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_00: The cool way that she infuses this magic into real history as if it's real and
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_00: really kind of something people study like scholars.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought the whole thing was so well done and just a true trip.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, so weirdly enough, my number six also.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_00: That's kind of cool.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_02: That's really cool.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it's funny because I saw our friend Francis.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_02: posted a picture of her bookshelves within the last couple of days.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_02: And several people commented, they're like, you have three copies of Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norell.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_02: And she's like, yeah, I have three copies.
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_02: They're in the three different colors.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_02: There's the hard copy, black one, white one and red one.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_02: They're all first editions and they're all signed.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, wow.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's so cool.
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I know.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_02: If we're super fans, she's a super, super fan, I think.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_02: But anyway, yeah, that's really cool.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_02: I love that that was also number six on your list.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_00: Well-deserved, I'd say.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_00: Let's see if we do it some more.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_00: We might.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_00: We might.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_00: We'll see.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_02: It won't be this one, though.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_02: I can guarantee that.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_02: Number five.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_02: This was a tricky one for me, but I went with Underland, A Deep Time Journey by Robert McFarlane.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_02: You didn't really think I would make a top 10 list without there being at least one
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_02: nature book on there,
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_02: And as much as I love The Wild Places and I rave about it all the time,
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_02: I did think about adding that one here.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_02: but I came to the conclusion that I think under land,
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_02: as far as just a book that has had the biggest impact on me and where it stands for
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_02: the first 25 years is a better choice.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_02: And I feel like this,
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_02: the reason is he had had several fabulous books that came before this,
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_02: including the wild places,
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_02: but I feel like this one is kind of the culmination of everything he's done up to
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_02: this point over this course of this,
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_02: 25 years.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um,
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_02: I'd seen that some of his other books are kind of grouped into this loose trilogy
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_02: that he described as being about landscape and the human heart,
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_02: which I love.
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_02: But this one, I feel like just takes it to a whole different level.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_02: The publisher's copy calls it an epic exploration of the Earth's underworlds as
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_02: they exist in myth,
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_02: literature,
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_02: memory,
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_02: and the land itself.
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that that encapsulates what
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_02: haunts me about this book is it has the geology it has the myth it has the
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_02: literature you know it has kind of the the adventure and the travel because he is
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_02: actually out there doing these things he's not writing about this without him being
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_02: out there doing it so he's like climbing on these melting glaciers and he's going
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_02: deep deep underground you know miles and miles underground into this old mine to
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_02: see
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_02: you know, parts of the earth that are literally billions of years old.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think that's part of the power of his writing is it has a little bit of
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_02: that adventure narrative to it,
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_02: like Taipei or something like that,
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_02: where he's actually doing it.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_02: But he also has that
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_02: the writing chops to make it just absolutely wonderful.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_02: I saw in the Guardian Review,
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_02: they were comparing him to Sebald,
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_02: who's also another teacher of literature.
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_02: And they said he quotes a dazzling range of poets and novelists and great galaxies
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_02: of writers on geology,
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_02: archaeology,
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_02: mythology,
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_02: morphology,
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_02: and glaciology.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_02: And then it goes on to say like, you know,
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_02: he cites Thomas Brown, H.G.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_02: Wells, Borges, Italo Calvino, Cormac McCarthy.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_02: So just listing all those, it's like that by itself would be enough for me.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_02: But on top of that, I really do think he's going to be remembered as the nature writer of our time.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't know.
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_02: like I said,
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_02: it's hard for me to decide because I have a soft spot for the wild places and it
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_02: probably will always be
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_02: maybe my favorite,
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_02: but I feel like this one is,
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_02: there's something about it that just makes it more worthy of this list for me.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't know,
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_02: it's another,
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_02: those two kind of go hand in hand for me of just these books that I can't speak
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_02: highly enough about.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, another gushy review by me.
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_00: we're getting closer to the top,
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_00: I expect the ones you didn't like very much to have passed and here we are.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_02: It's only going to get worse from here.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, my next one probably won't surprise you too much, uh, is, uh, Reinhardt's Garden by Mark Haber.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I, I, this, this is the book that, that got me going with, with his work.
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_00: I have loved St.
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_00: Sebastian's Abyss and Lesser Ruins comes out in a couple months, like I mentioned before.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, Reinhardt's Garden, a book about melancholy and the absolute delight of melancholy.
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_00: so much going on in this book of this,
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_00: this old trek,
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_00: it kind of hits all of these things that I love.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_00: the,
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_00: the jungle theme,
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_00: the,
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_00: the quest,
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_00: the,
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_00: the mad quest in the,
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_00: in the old days,
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_00: just,
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_00: and then to put all of that in with this philosophy of melancholy and this quest
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_00: for the perfect melancholy because of how sublime that sensation is this novel and
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_00: it's the structure,
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_00: the writing,
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_00: the,
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_00: the powerful thrust forward through the pages of dense prose and long meandering
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_00: sentences and,
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_00: single paragraphs for,
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_00: this whole book.
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_00: It hits so many of my sweet spots.
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_00: And again, as a book that I think back on so often and reread various passages of,
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm hoping to reread it so that I can sit down and kind of talk about it with
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_00: And Lesser Ruins with Mark later on this year.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_00: But I think that'll happen, and I just can't wait.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's such a good...
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_00: a good book and it's not the only one that he's written that could be, you know, on my list for this.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_02: No, absolutely.
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_02: This is where I get the cheat and say that was absolutely one of my ones that I had
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_02: a tough time not adding for all the same reasons you just said.
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_02: And I was actually just thinking the other day how fun it would be to kind of
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_02: celebrate the pump date of lesser ruins by kind of reading those three
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_02: all right in a row, which I think I'm going to do.
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_02: So I may be joining you on that reread.
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_02: Cause like you said, it is, it's just ticked so many boxes.
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_02: So fabulous.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, I do feel like it's, it's own little mad quest.
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_02: You need a machete to get through the dense, you know, paragraphs and, and in the best of ways.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_02: No, that's a great choice.
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_00: Nice.
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_00: Nice.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_02: You're number four.
• 58:51
  SPEAKER_02: Number four is ducks.
• 58:53
  SPEAKER_02: Newberry port by Lucy Elman.
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_02: Man.
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_02: This book is over a thousand pages.
• 58:59
  SPEAKER_02: It got a whole lot of hype for a while there,
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_02: and I think it still does,
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_02: but I feel like it has kind of faded away more than I feel like is justified.
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_02: This is just one of the most immersive books I've ever read in my life.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_02: And speaking of huge swaths of little punctuation and no paragraph breaks,
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_02: this is another one that fits the bill.
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_02: Like so many of these books,
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_02: it's kind of incorrectly often described as being made up of one long sentence.
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_02: That's not quite the case, but it is in that same context.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_02: family, for sure.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_02: most people probably know the vast majority of this narrative takes place in the
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_02: head and the voice of this housewife in Ohio.
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_02: And it famously includes frequent repetitions of the phrase, the fact that.
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_02: So,
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_02: it's,
• 59:44
  SPEAKER_02: for example,
• 59:44
  SPEAKER_02: the fact that you'll never know what sort of person you might have been if you'd
• 59:47
  SPEAKER_02: read different stuff.
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_02: Or the fact that we all go on pretending things are fine,
• 59:51
  SPEAKER_02: hoping everything's a-okay,
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_02: even though everything is nowhere near okay,
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_02: and we all know it,
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_02: no matter how many candlelit vigils you hold.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_02: it's just got oh it is rough going it's this woman kind of dealing with anxiety
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_02: life during the trump presidency in the united states you know she's talking about
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_02: mass shootings and global warming i mean it's it's dark and deep but i think one
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_02: thing that sometimes is ignored is there's also a lot of humor mixed in i was just
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_02: talking to my wife about this over dinner tonight because she had some bay leaves
• 1:00:22
  SPEAKER_02: out for dinner and
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_02: There's a part that says the fact that two whole jars of bay leaves is really like a lifetime supply.
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_02: The fact that I wonder if every household has too many bay leaves.
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_02: The fact that the number of bay leaves you own can easily get out of hand.
• 1:00:34
  SPEAKER_02: And so it is such a masterful balance of darkness and anxiety and claustrophobia
• 1:00:41
  SPEAKER_02: with a lot of humor and all kinds of things.
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_02: I saw,
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if I knew this,
• 1:00:46
  SPEAKER_02: but did you know she's the daughter of the James Joyce scholar,
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_02: Richard Ellman?
• 1:00:51
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know that.
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't either.
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_02: And it makes so much sense because there's just this modernist stream of
• 1:00:57
  SPEAKER_02: consciousness thing going on here that,
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_02: it makes total sense that...
• 1:01:02
  SPEAKER_02: that she has that connection so yeah boy this book i like i said i know that it had
• 1:01:07
  SPEAKER_02: the spotlight for a long time but i just think this is one that deserves to stay
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_02: that way and i wouldn't be surprised if you could do that thing where you zip
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_02: forward a hundred years and look back and see which books stick this one's got to
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_02: be on that list because to me it was groundbreaking and and unlike anything that
• 1:01:25
  SPEAKER_02: i've ever read my entire life i i am haunted by this book for sure
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't read it yet.
• 1:01:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's big.
• 1:01:34
  SPEAKER_02: It is big.
• 1:01:34
  SPEAKER_02: And when you look at the pages, it's daunting for sure.
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_02: But there's something about,
• 1:01:38
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if you could tell from those little snippets,
• 1:01:40
  SPEAKER_02: but the flow of it,
• 1:01:42
  SPEAKER_02: it's so propulsive.
• 1:01:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I wouldn't call it a page turner,
• 1:01:46
  SPEAKER_02: that's not the right term,
• 1:01:47
  SPEAKER_02: but it is more of a page turner than you would expect by the descriptions and by
• 1:01:51
  SPEAKER_02: the size of it.
• 1:01:52
  SPEAKER_02: There's
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_02: something where once you get into it it's like some of these books we've talked
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_02: about where it's almost like jumping into a river and off you go you know sit back
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_00: and let it take you oh yeah well i'm excited to get there sometime sometime and i
• 1:02:08
  SPEAKER_00: don't you know i hear people talk about it and really like it but it definitely has
• 1:02:12
  SPEAKER_00: been you who has made it a book that i think well i don't want to miss out on that
• 1:02:17
  SPEAKER_00: yeah so yeah
• 1:02:19
  SPEAKER_02: Hopefully you'll get a chance.
• 1:02:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:02:23
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 1:02:24
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 1:02:24
  SPEAKER_00: the one that I have for my number four is also a big one that I don't think you've
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_00: read yet,
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_00: but I think that it is going to be one that you're excited to read.
• 1:02:34
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a bit of a cheat, but not at the same time.
• 1:02:36
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_00: It is Javier Marias' Your Face Tomorrow, translated by Margaret Jolkosta.
• 1:02:45
  SPEAKER_00: The reason,
• 1:02:46
  SPEAKER_00: of course,
• 1:02:46
  SPEAKER_00: that this is a little bit of a cheat is that it is three big books,
• 1:02:52
  SPEAKER_00: three big volumes that actually contain five parts each.
• 1:02:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like the first one is Fever and Spear and then, you know, and so on.
• 1:03:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so it but it is one big, massive work.
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just,
• 1:03:09
  SPEAKER_00: it's a book that is similar to so many that we read by Marius about our perceptions,
• 1:03:18
  SPEAKER_00: our paranoias,
• 1:03:20
  SPEAKER_00: memory,
• 1:03:21
  SPEAKER_00: what can we know for sure,
• 1:03:23
  SPEAKER_00: even about our own memories and our own life.
• 1:03:27
  SPEAKER_00: and about truth and secrets and all of those things as he goes through this really
• 1:03:35
  SPEAKER_00: interesting situation with spies and the Spanish Civil War and ancestors and who
• 1:03:43
  SPEAKER_00: was involved in what.
• 1:03:44
  SPEAKER_00: And between England and Spain, it's just one of the masterpieces, I think, of the 21st century so far.
• 1:03:55
  SPEAKER_00: And the first volume, this volume one, Fever and Spear, came out in 2002.
• 1:04:03
  SPEAKER_00: And over the next five or six years, we got the other couple of them to come out too.
• 1:04:09
  SPEAKER_00: And it is a magnum opus.
• 1:04:12
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's his best.
• 1:04:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's his masterpiece, though I sure do love a lot of his shorter single volumes.
• 1:04:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'm glad he was able to get this one out when he did.
• 1:04:23
  SPEAKER_02: I was hoping that one would be on your list and it is absolutely.
• 1:04:26
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 1:04:26
  SPEAKER_02: we can start spoiling some of these,
• 1:04:27
  SPEAKER_02: but when we were going to talk about books that we think once we read them,
• 1:04:32
  SPEAKER_02: we'll be on this list for us.
• 1:04:33
  SPEAKER_02: That was one of the ones for sure.
• 1:04:36
  SPEAKER_02: It's one of those,
• 1:04:37
  SPEAKER_02: you just know you're going to love it,
• 1:04:38
  SPEAKER_02: even though you've not read a single word of it.
• 1:04:40
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, absolutely.
• 1:04:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:04:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for sure.
• 1:04:43
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 1:04:45
  SPEAKER_00: We're getting into the nitty gritty, your top three.
• 1:04:48
  SPEAKER_02: Here we get into the rarefied air where I,
• 1:04:50
  SPEAKER_02: The way you and I are such kindred spirits, I don't know.
• 1:04:53
  SPEAKER_02: I'll just be curious to see if we're going to start just saying the same thing over and over again.
• 1:04:57
  SPEAKER_02: Number three for me, it's The Road by Cormac McCarthy.
• 1:05:03
  SPEAKER_02: I had such a tough time trying to decide which book to pick, but at the same time,
• 1:05:09
  SPEAKER_02: I kind of got a little bit of a break because many of his all-time masterpieces in
• 1:05:14
  SPEAKER_02: many people's views broke into the 20th century,
• 1:05:17
  SPEAKER_02: which saved me a little bit here.
• 1:05:19
  SPEAKER_02: But I will honestly say there was a moment where I considered adding the passenger here.
• 1:05:23
  SPEAKER_02: That's how much it stuck with me.
• 1:05:25
  SPEAKER_02: But I just couldn't not pick the road, not only because it deserves to be here all by itself,
• 1:05:30
  SPEAKER_02: But also, again, for what we were talking about earlier, just what what it means to me in my life.
• 1:05:36
  SPEAKER_02: I read it right around the same time as Jonathan Strange, actually.
• 1:05:39
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it was another one of those kind of books that just kind of expanded my
• 1:05:43
  SPEAKER_02: consciousness of of a new author and a new type of writing that just I didn't know
• 1:05:50
  SPEAKER_02: about before.
• 1:05:50
  SPEAKER_02: You know, just those moments in your life where you just you did not know that this was possible.
• 1:05:55
  SPEAKER_02: You know, the the famous.
• 1:05:58
  SPEAKER_02: old testament style writing that he did is present here and I think this was a
• 1:06:04
  SPEAKER_02: really good gateway book for me into Cormac because it does have a little bit of
• 1:06:08
  SPEAKER_02: the page turner elements of like no country for old men but it also blends in a lot
• 1:06:14
  SPEAKER_02: of his more difficult language and so I think it's a really good starting point for
• 1:06:18
  SPEAKER_02: it was for me and I think it has been for a lot of people for that reason but then
• 1:06:22
  SPEAKER_02: we've also just talked about of course there's the bleakness the cannibalism the
• 1:06:27
  SPEAKER_02: post-apocalyptic landscape.
• 1:06:29
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's unavoidable.
• 1:06:30
  SPEAKER_02: The shopping cart going down, the blasted road, all of these things.
• 1:06:35
  SPEAKER_02: But the beauty of, again, the relationship, the man and his son.
• 1:06:41
  SPEAKER_02: uh is just one of those like we talk about those relationships that are the most
• 1:06:44
  SPEAKER_02: powerful literature i mean it's one of the most beautiful relationships that i've
• 1:06:47
  SPEAKER_02: ever read about and even though it's so sparing and sparse and grim in many ways
• 1:06:53
  SPEAKER_02: because of what they're having to deal with just the closeness and the loaf that
• 1:06:57
  SPEAKER_02: shines through all of that to me is you know this this little feeble light in a
• 1:07:02
  SPEAKER_02: dark landscape but it's still what i remember when i finish this book is just
• 1:07:07
  SPEAKER_02: you know, beyond all of the darkness, there's the love that he has for his son.
• 1:07:12
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, we've talked about this before.
• 1:07:14
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 1:07:14
  SPEAKER_02: I do find it very bleak and I'm not one of those people who needs to put a happy
• 1:07:18
  SPEAKER_02: gloss on a book,
• 1:07:20
  SPEAKER_02: but I do think that it's impossible to mention this book without mentioning that as well.
• 1:07:27
  SPEAKER_00: Very good choice.
• 1:07:28
  SPEAKER_00: Not on my list, so we aren't going to repeat ourselves.
• 1:07:31
  SPEAKER_00: But,
• 1:07:32
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:07:32
  SPEAKER_00: like you said,
• 1:07:33
  SPEAKER_00: all these conflicting things going on as you're putting together a list like this.
• 1:07:37
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 1:07:38
  SPEAKER_00: this is definitely one of those books that I remember where I was as I was reading
• 1:07:42
  SPEAKER_00: different passages and different pieces of it.
• 1:07:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's I can't remember if it was the first book by Cormac McCarthy that I read.
• 1:07:50
  SPEAKER_00: And then I went and started, you know, all the pretty horses and no country for old men.
• 1:07:55
  SPEAKER_00: But I might've read those first,
• 1:07:57
  SPEAKER_00: but one way or another,
• 1:07:58
  SPEAKER_00: it was this big thing that,
• 1:07:59
  SPEAKER_00: that,
• 1:08:00
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:08:00
  SPEAKER_00: got me going.
• 1:08:01
  SPEAKER_00: I was delighted when I saw that it won the Pulitzer.
• 1:08:05
  SPEAKER_00: One of the only times in my whole life that I was sitting there waiting for the
• 1:08:08
  SPEAKER_00: announcement and just hoping that a certain book won and then being,
• 1:08:12
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:08:13
  SPEAKER_00: thrilled that it did.
• 1:08:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:08:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:08:16
  SPEAKER_00: Just a great, a great book.
• 1:08:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:08:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's just on top of all that,
• 1:08:21
  SPEAKER_02: what you were saying with Maria is to have like this book that just represents,
• 1:08:26
  SPEAKER_02: One of the authors that goes at your upper echelons, you know, of all time authors.
• 1:08:31
  SPEAKER_02: It just makes it extra special, I think.
• 1:08:33
  SPEAKER_02: So, yeah.
• 1:08:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:08:36
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 1:08:36
  SPEAKER_00: The next book on my list is one that's a little bit trickier for me right now.
• 1:08:41
  SPEAKER_00: Not because I love it less or anything like that, but it is still hard to...
• 1:08:47
  SPEAKER_00: to quite know how to grapple with all the fresh news that has just come out about Alice Monroe.
• 1:08:51
  SPEAKER_00: But the book that I chose for my number three is her,
• 1:08:55
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 1:08:55
  SPEAKER_00: book Runaway from 2004,
• 1:08:57
  SPEAKER_00: a collection of,
• 1:08:59
  SPEAKER_00: of stories,
• 1:09:00
  SPEAKER_00: of course.
• 1:09:01
  SPEAKER_00: Uh,
• 1:09:03
  SPEAKER_00: these,
• 1:09:04
  SPEAKER_00: these,
• 1:09:05
  SPEAKER_00: this was,
• 1:09:06
  SPEAKER_00: I've loved so many of her short stories and I've been reading them,
• 1:09:09
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:09:10
  SPEAKER_00: over the past few decades.
• 1:09:12
  SPEAKER_00: years and decade from beginning to end, starting at the start.
• 1:09:17
  SPEAKER_00: And this collection just always still kind of comes back and hits me.
• 1:09:23
  SPEAKER_00: but it is more tricky now because I mean,
• 1:09:26
  SPEAKER_00: some of the,
• 1:09:26
  SPEAKER_00: some of the themes in this book about silence and,
• 1:09:29
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:09:29
  SPEAKER_00: with one of the stories is called silence.
• 1:09:31
  SPEAKER_00: One of them is called passion,
• 1:09:32
  SPEAKER_00: trespasses,
• 1:09:34
  SPEAKER_00: tricks and powers with,
• 1:09:35
  SPEAKER_00: with what's going on with her,
• 1:09:37
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 1:09:38
  SPEAKER_00: the revelation about her daughter's abuse and,
• 1:09:42
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 1:09:42
  SPEAKER_00: Monroe's own,
• 1:09:43
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 1:09:44
  SPEAKER_00: silence.
• 1:09:44
  SPEAKER_00: And, um, uh, it's, it's heartbreaking.
• 1:09:47
  SPEAKER_00: It really is not for me.
• 1:09:49
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, whatever, uh,
• 1:09:51
  SPEAKER_00: uh it's a it's some stories that mean a lot but it's not that's not what i mean
• 1:09:55
  SPEAKER_00: when i say heartbreaking i mean for her daughter for her family and ultimately i'm
• 1:10:00
  SPEAKER_00: sure for for them you know for her as well in some ways but this book seemed to now
• 1:10:06
  SPEAKER_00: be a little bit more complicated for me but certainly analyzing these these themes
• 1:10:13
  SPEAKER_00: um
• 1:10:14
  SPEAKER_00: I still think that they're amazing and definitely reading this particular of her
• 1:10:19
  SPEAKER_00: books is one of those reading experiences from the past quarter century that I
• 1:10:23
  SPEAKER_00: can't let go of easily.
• 1:10:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, that is, that's so complicated and sad.
• 1:10:29
  SPEAKER_02: And,
• 1:10:30
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:10:30
  SPEAKER_02: it's the whole,
• 1:10:32
  SPEAKER_02: the age old thing of,
• 1:10:33
  SPEAKER_02: of the artist and the art and whether they should be separated,
• 1:10:36
  SPEAKER_02: how much they should be,
• 1:10:37
  SPEAKER_02: should be separated.
• 1:10:38
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah,
• 1:10:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I don't know.
• 1:10:41
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not going to claim to have the answer to that.
• 1:10:42
  SPEAKER_02: But I think knowing you and how long I've known you,
• 1:10:45
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's very much it makes sense to me that she would be so near the top
• 1:10:51
  SPEAKER_02: because I know she's meant so much to you over the years and so many other people.
• 1:10:54
  SPEAKER_02: So I think, yeah.
• 1:10:55
  SPEAKER_02: All of that aside, I think it's a very worthy choice and definitely deserves to be up there.
• 1:11:00
  SPEAKER_02: And she is,
• 1:11:01
  SPEAKER_02: everything else aside,
• 1:11:02
  SPEAKER_02: she will always be remembered as one of the all-time greats when it comes to short stories.
• 1:11:09
  SPEAKER_02: I do like that we both had some short stories.
• 1:11:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, for sure.
• 1:11:13
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, here's where listeners are going to
• 1:11:16
  SPEAKER_02: roll their eyes because they're going to get so tired of me talking about this
• 1:11:20
  SPEAKER_02: because we just spent all of our last episode talking about Roberto Bolaño.
• 1:11:25
  SPEAKER_00: My number two is also, I'll just say it, 2666 by Roberto Bolaño.
• 1:11:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 1:11:30
  SPEAKER_00: I thought that might be the case.
• 1:11:32
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry to swoop in, but I thought I would just show how predictable we are.
• 1:11:35
  SPEAKER_00: We are.
• 1:11:37
  SPEAKER_02: We are.
• 1:11:37
  SPEAKER_02: But hey,
• 1:11:38
  SPEAKER_02: there was no way anybody thought we were going to make these lists after having
• 1:11:41
  SPEAKER_02: listened to us for the last three years or whatever it's been and not think that
• 1:11:45
  SPEAKER_02: this was going to be number one or number two for all the reasons that we talked
• 1:11:50
  SPEAKER_02: about with Ron,
• 1:11:51
  SPEAKER_02: you know.
• 1:11:52
  SPEAKER_02: last week.
• 1:11:53
  SPEAKER_02: And speaking of Paul Tremblay,
• 1:11:55
  SPEAKER_02: I was interested to see,
• 1:11:56
  SPEAKER_02: this book was actually number six on the official New York Times list,
• 1:11:59
  SPEAKER_02: which was one of those pleasant surprises that I talked about.
• 1:12:02
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't necessarily,
• 1:12:03
  SPEAKER_02: I know that Roberto Bolaño is obviously well regarded in literary circles,
• 1:12:08
  SPEAKER_02: but I don't know,
• 1:12:09
  SPEAKER_02: to me,
• 1:12:10
  SPEAKER_02: this was a little bit surprising that it was actually appearing on a list among so
• 1:12:14
  SPEAKER_02: many other books that people might call mainstream or,
• 1:12:16
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:12:16
  SPEAKER_02: something like that.
• 1:12:17
  SPEAKER_02: So, but yeah, Paul Tremblay is,
• 1:12:20
  SPEAKER_02: mentioned it and and he mentioned the epigraph from Baudelaire that's at the very
• 1:12:24
  SPEAKER_02: beginning that says an oasis of horror and a desert of boredom and he just said you
• 1:12:30
  SPEAKER_02: know how that was such a great intro to this book and I I just wanted to repeat
• 1:12:34
  SPEAKER_02: that I agree it's um
• 1:12:37
  SPEAKER_02: It's all the things that you said.
• 1:12:38
  SPEAKER_02: I was listening to our last episode the other day and just you talked about how
• 1:12:43
  SPEAKER_02: much of this book is about seeking and mystery and kind of putting yourself into a
• 1:12:48
  SPEAKER_02: position where you don't feel sure about things anymore.
• 1:12:52
  SPEAKER_02: it's so unsettling.
• 1:12:53
  SPEAKER_02: And as we've said more and more,
• 1:12:55
  SPEAKER_02: that's kind of what I value in literature or one of the things I value is that
• 1:13:00
  SPEAKER_02: feeling of not coming out of it and not really knowing what to think.
• 1:13:04
  SPEAKER_02: So this is kind of the poster child for that feeling.
• 1:13:06
  SPEAKER_00: So it definitely belongs up there.
• 1:13:11
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, what a good, what a good choice, Paul.
• 1:13:13
  SPEAKER_00: I endorse your number two.
• 1:13:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:13:16
  SPEAKER_02: Your number two and your number six, I would say so far my favorites.
• 1:13:19
  SPEAKER_00: it's kind of, kind of crazy.
• 1:13:20
  SPEAKER_00: I, I thought we might have a little bit of overlap in, in those two in particular.
• 1:13:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I, I do think it's crazy that they're in the same spot.
• 1:13:29
  SPEAKER_02: That's really funny.
• 1:13:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:13:32
  SPEAKER_00: I think,
• 1:13:32
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:13:33
  SPEAKER_00: for listeners wanting to hear a little bit more,
• 1:13:35
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 1:13:35
  SPEAKER_00: we,
• 1:13:36
  SPEAKER_00: we talk about two,
• 1:13:37
  SPEAKER_00: six,
• 1:13:37
  SPEAKER_00: six,
• 1:13:37
  SPEAKER_00: six throughout that whole episode.
• 1:13:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I think both of us, uh, you know, it's, it's, it's our top of, of his books.
• 1:13:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's our top, one of our tops of the whole last quarter century.
• 1:13:50
  SPEAKER_00: For good reason.
• 1:13:50
  SPEAKER_00: And we go into that a little bit more, I think, into that episode.
• 1:13:54
  SPEAKER_00: So rather than repeat ourselves too much here,
• 1:13:57
  SPEAKER_00: I'll just say,
• 1:13:57
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
• 1:13:58
  SPEAKER_00: this is an unwieldy beast that is still worth wrestling with in every way.
• 1:14:03
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 1:14:04
  SPEAKER_02: Let me ask, was there any universe where that was in contention for your number one?
• 1:14:09
  SPEAKER_02: Because I had some moments where I at least debated.
• 1:14:12
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think so.
• 1:14:14
  SPEAKER_00: My number one was pretty set.
• 1:14:16
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:14:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:14:17
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:14:17
  SPEAKER_02: Well that said,
• 1:14:18
  SPEAKER_02: I,
• 1:14:19
  SPEAKER_02: I feel very happy with my number one and it's almost the antithesis of the book we
• 1:14:22
  SPEAKER_02: just described in that it is a,
• 1:14:26
  SPEAKER_02: a tiny little perfect gem.
• 1:14:28
  SPEAKER_02: And if that description, I am right.
• 1:14:31
  SPEAKER_00: I'm already typing the show notes.
• 1:14:33
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 1:14:34
  SPEAKER_02: Train dreams by Dennis Johnson.
• 1:14:36
  SPEAKER_02: It will shock exactly zero of our listeners to hear me say this.
• 1:14:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um,
• 1:14:41
  SPEAKER_02: I've said it before many times,
• 1:14:43
  SPEAKER_02: but I really do think this is the closest thing to a perfect book that I can imagine.
• 1:14:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I say that with 2666 fresh in my mind, because I think it's kind of funny that I talked about this.
• 1:14:54
  SPEAKER_02: There's that scene,
• 1:14:55
  SPEAKER_02: that quote from 2666 about the pharmacist who always goes for those slim,
• 1:15:01
  SPEAKER_02: perfect novels.
• 1:15:02
  SPEAKER_02: And he chooses that instead of the messy, big torrential works.
• 1:15:05
  SPEAKER_02: And
• 1:15:06
  SPEAKER_02: Like usually I'm defending the big messy torrential works and kind of advocating for that.
• 1:15:10
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it's kind of funny that my number one book is just to me, this like perfectly polished gem.
• 1:15:17
  SPEAKER_02: I've mentioned this before too.
• 1:15:19
  SPEAKER_02: It's often called an epic and miniature.
• 1:15:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's what... By you, I think you coined that, right?
• 1:15:24
  SPEAKER_02: I wish I did.
• 1:15:25
  SPEAKER_02: It's such a great way.
• 1:15:26
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's so true because that's the thing.
• 1:15:28
  SPEAKER_02: The power of this book is...
• 1:15:31
  SPEAKER_02: in this tiny little book with however many pages it has, it's a novella.
• 1:15:37
  SPEAKER_02: Not only does it capture an entire man's life in such a compelling and believable fashion,
• 1:15:42
  SPEAKER_02: but it also captures America in this moment of transition.
• 1:15:49
  SPEAKER_02: And somehow it manages to do both of those things so expertly.
• 1:15:55
  SPEAKER_02: Every time I read it, it blows me away.
• 1:15:56
  SPEAKER_02: And it's one of those books that for me,
• 1:15:59
  SPEAKER_02: only gets better with each rereading which i think is another sign of a great book
• 1:16:04
  SPEAKER_02: um so yeah like tree of smoke for example is another one of his books that was on
• 1:16:09
  SPEAKER_02: the list the new york times list both this and that were and that would be the one
• 1:16:14
  SPEAKER_02: if you were going to advocate for the big messy
• 1:16:16
  SPEAKER_02: you know, book by him tree of smoke.
• 1:16:18
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 1:16:18
  SPEAKER_02: I want to reread it soon because I grappled with it and I feel like I maybe lost
• 1:16:23
  SPEAKER_02: that fight the first time around,
• 1:16:25
  SPEAKER_02: but I want to try it again.
• 1:16:26
  SPEAKER_02: But I haven't even tried yet.
• 1:16:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:16:30
  SPEAKER_02: I had a tough time with it, but it does call to me.
• 1:16:33
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah,
• 1:16:33
  SPEAKER_02: this one,
• 1:16:35
  SPEAKER_02: I've said it before,
• 1:16:36
  SPEAKER_02: I loved it the first time I read it,
• 1:16:38
  SPEAKER_02: but the second time I read it,
• 1:16:39
  SPEAKER_02: it just took it to a whole different level that for me definitely justifies it being,
• 1:16:44
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:16:44
  SPEAKER_02: the very top of my list so far.
• 1:16:46
  SPEAKER_02: And it's one of those books that I just,
• 1:16:48
  SPEAKER_02: I think I'll reread it every couple of years for the rest of my life.
• 1:16:52
  SPEAKER_02: And to me, that's got to be one of the markers of a great book.
• 1:16:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:16:55
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 1:16:57
  SPEAKER_00: I'm glad you went with it.
• 1:16:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I was kind of curious.
• 1:17:01
  SPEAKER_00: I thought, oh, Paul, are you cheating?
• 1:17:03
  SPEAKER_00: Because that was originally published in the Paris Review years before it was published in book form.
• 1:17:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, oh, is this a book from the 1990s?
• 1:17:14
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think so.
• 1:17:15
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's from the early 2000s in the Paris Review, too.
• 1:17:18
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, good.
• 1:17:19
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't blow it.
• 1:17:19
  SPEAKER_02: I'm pretty sure.
• 1:17:20
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like I looked them all up because I was so afraid of that moment where it's like,
• 1:17:25
  SPEAKER_02: oh,
• 1:17:25
  SPEAKER_02: no,
• 1:17:25
  SPEAKER_00: that was 1998.
• 1:17:28
  SPEAKER_00: Just before we get to my top one, I mean, I knew that this one...
• 1:17:33
  SPEAKER_00: Wasn't eligible, but I was curious how close.
• 1:17:35
  SPEAKER_00: Interpreter of Maladies, Jempa Lahiri.
• 1:17:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:17:39
  1999.
• 1:17:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:17:40
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we were talking about those dark nights of the soul making this list.
• 1:17:44
  SPEAKER_02: And the fact that she wasn't on my list bothers me still because she is like one of
• 1:17:50
  SPEAKER_02: the most important authors of this time period to me by far.
• 1:17:54
  SPEAKER_02: And it's been multiple books that have done it.
• 1:17:56
  SPEAKER_02: But when I was trying to,
• 1:17:57
  SPEAKER_02: like it would have been,
• 1:17:58
  SPEAKER_02: if Interpreter of Maladies was eligible,
• 1:18:00
  SPEAKER_02: it would have been easily on this list.
• 1:18:02
  SPEAKER_02: And as much as I've loved her other books,
• 1:18:03
  SPEAKER_02: I just couldn't quite,
• 1:18:04
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't want to make a compromise where I was choosing an author over a book.
• 1:18:09
  SPEAKER_02: If we were making a list of the top 25, one or maybe even two of her books would probably be in there.
• 1:18:13
  SPEAKER_02: But I just couldn't quite make the case to myself that any of them other than
• 1:18:18
  SPEAKER_02: Interpretive Maladies would be worthy of this list.
• 1:18:20
  SPEAKER_02: So I did make the hard choices for you, Trevor.
• 1:18:23
  SPEAKER_02: That should be proof.
• 1:18:24
  SPEAKER_00: There you are.
• 1:18:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm even good that you get a chance to express that.
• 1:18:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:18:31
  SPEAKER_02: No, I'm glad you mentioned it because it did break my heart a little for sure.
• 1:18:35
  SPEAKER_00: All right, well, my number one, as I said, this one was pretty easy.
• 1:18:38
  SPEAKER_00: I think I said it number one early on, and I don't think that it was ever in play to slip down the list.
• 1:18:47
  SPEAKER_00: And it is W.G.
• 1:18:48
  SPEAKER_00: Sebald's final novel, Austerlitz, from 2001.
• 1:18:53
  SPEAKER_00: This book,
• 1:18:56
  SPEAKER_00: for people who haven't read it,
• 1:18:58
  SPEAKER_00: it fits with many of the other books on my list in terms of being kind of a
• 1:19:02
  SPEAKER_00: wandering book,
• 1:19:04
  SPEAKER_00: a book where there's a lot of someone
• 1:19:07
  SPEAKER_00: kind of looking around while thinking and,
• 1:19:09
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:19:09
  SPEAKER_00: engaging with what he,
• 1:19:11
  SPEAKER_00: what he's looking at while,
• 1:19:12
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:19:13
  SPEAKER_00: really dealing with some deeper,
• 1:19:15
  SPEAKER_00: more troubling ideas.
• 1:19:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's about a man named Austerlitz who is a historian.
• 1:19:23
  SPEAKER_00: He goes around and looks at architecture and,
• 1:19:25
  SPEAKER_00: and you get,
• 1:19:26
  SPEAKER_00: so you get little fun details that are,
• 1:19:28
  SPEAKER_00: I found them delightful.
• 1:19:30
  SPEAKER_00: Probably some people would be like, this is too much, but yeah,
• 1:19:32
  SPEAKER_00: I thought it was quite delightful.
• 1:19:34
  SPEAKER_00: You get little pictures, of course, as you do in Sebald's books.
• 1:19:38
  SPEAKER_00: And he runs into our narrator,
• 1:19:44
  SPEAKER_00: who is someone else,
• 1:19:45
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:19:45
  SPEAKER_00: who also just kind of keeps on seeing this Austerlitz fellow.
• 1:19:49
  SPEAKER_00: And again, as happens with a lot of Sebald's work, over time,
• 1:19:55
  SPEAKER_00: You start to see the themes emerge.
• 1:19:56
  SPEAKER_00: Over time,
• 1:19:57
  SPEAKER_00: you start to get revealed a history that is well below the surface,
• 1:20:01
  SPEAKER_00: well below the surface,
• 1:20:03
  SPEAKER_00: of the people that you think are just normal.
• 1:20:06
  SPEAKER_00: Normal is the wrong word.
• 1:20:07
  SPEAKER_00: You think you understand them.
• 1:20:11
  SPEAKER_00: You think you know what goes on.
• 1:20:13
  SPEAKER_00: You think you know them, you think you, you think you get their past, but you don't.
• 1:20:20
  SPEAKER_00: And to be able to go back and see that in the context on the world stage and as
• 1:20:26
  SPEAKER_00: well as on the individual stage is where I think this book is so,
• 1:20:31
  SPEAKER_00: so powerful.
• 1:20:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's a, it may be the only book on this list that made me cry while reading it.
• 1:20:38
  SPEAKER_00: I don't cry while reading things usually.
• 1:20:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:20:41
  SPEAKER_00: ever i don't know but this book this book did um it is so powerful and so profound
• 1:20:49
  SPEAKER_00: to me again that what there wasn't when we when we did this it almost was maybe the
• 1:20:54
  SPEAKER_00: only reason i even wanted to do this episode it's not the only reason but one of
• 1:21:00
  SPEAKER_00: the big ones was hey it'll give me a chance to talk about australis for even just a
• 1:21:03
  SPEAKER_00: few minutes i love that
• 1:21:06
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 1:21:07
  SPEAKER_02: I knew you loved it,
• 1:21:07
  SPEAKER_02: but that,
• 1:21:08
  SPEAKER_02: yeah,
• 1:21:08
  SPEAKER_02: it doesn't surprise me,
• 1:21:09
  SPEAKER_02: but I love learning that about you because I think I knew that it was an important
• 1:21:14
  SPEAKER_02: book to you,
• 1:21:14
  SPEAKER_02: but I don't know if I knew quite how high it would rank,
• 1:21:18
  SPEAKER_02: but that's really cool.
• 1:21:19
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I love Sebald and
• 1:21:21
  SPEAKER_02: he is, he's all those things.
• 1:21:23
  SPEAKER_02: Like when I mentioned flights,
• 1:21:24
  SPEAKER_02: kind of the fragmentary drifting approach,
• 1:21:28
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:21:29
  SPEAKER_02: obviously he,
• 1:21:30
  SPEAKER_02: I think is probably an influence on so many of these authors that I love.
• 1:21:35
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm,
• 1:21:35
  SPEAKER_02: so I'm glad you mentioned him because yeah,
• 1:21:38
  SPEAKER_02: I think he's always present in a lot of these books that is this type of literature
• 1:21:42
  SPEAKER_02: that draws me more and more to it.
• 1:21:45
  SPEAKER_02: That's a awesome choice.
• 1:21:47
  SPEAKER_00: Well, just to mean you're right, I love Seybold.
• 1:21:50
  SPEAKER_00: If we had done this for the last 35 years,
• 1:21:52
  SPEAKER_00: including the 90s,
• 1:21:54
  SPEAKER_00: The Immigrants and Rings of Saturn would also be on my top 10 list,
• 1:21:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think.
• 1:21:58
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, these three books are just so... I never know which one's my actual favorite book.
• 1:22:05
  SPEAKER_00: austerlitz is the one i read last i read him you know i started the vertigo then
• 1:22:09
  SPEAKER_00: the immigrants then rings of saturn and maybe that's a reason why austerlitz was so
• 1:22:13
  SPEAKER_00: profound and and really kind of just hit me emotionally was that it was also his
• 1:22:19
  SPEAKER_00: last one you know he died very shortly um after this book was published in 2001 and
• 1:22:26
  SPEAKER_00: it just
• 1:22:30
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 1:22:31
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I don't know much about Zeybald himself.
• 1:22:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's not anything like that,
• 1:22:35
  SPEAKER_00: but just the,
• 1:22:36
  SPEAKER_00: the,
• 1:22:37
  SPEAKER_00: where he took me,
• 1:22:38
  SPEAKER_00: I was grateful for his,
• 1:22:39
  SPEAKER_00: his insights into his wanderings of these,
• 1:22:44
  SPEAKER_00: these places in the physical world,
• 1:22:46
  SPEAKER_00: as well as in the mind.
• 1:22:47
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, that's great.
• 1:22:49
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 1:22:51
  SPEAKER_02: I've read that one.
• 1:22:52
  SPEAKER_02: That was the first one I read and absolutely loved it.
• 1:22:54
  SPEAKER_02: And then I just read the immigrants book.
• 1:22:56
  SPEAKER_02: within the last year or so,
• 1:22:58
  SPEAKER_02: but I still have a couple more of his to make my way through,
• 1:23:01
  SPEAKER_02: which I'm happy about.
• 1:23:03
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, have you not read Rings of Saturn yet?
• 1:23:04
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't.
• 1:23:05
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't read it yet.
• 1:23:07
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:23:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:23:08
  SPEAKER_00: I'm excited for when you do.
• 1:23:09
  SPEAKER_00: I need to reread them all.
• 1:23:11
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't love Vertigo, but I think I also, it was the very first one.
• 1:23:15
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't entirely know what was going on, but.
• 1:23:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:23:18
  SPEAKER_02: There's something to be said for that with his works.
• 1:23:21
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's part of why I,
• 1:23:23
  SPEAKER_02: I want to reread Austerlitz because as much as I really did enjoy it,
• 1:23:26
  SPEAKER_02: I think some of it was my mind was still trying to figure out what I was reading
• 1:23:32
  SPEAKER_02: and what he was doing.
• 1:23:33
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think if I could reread it,
• 1:23:34
  SPEAKER_02: knowing a little bit more about him and what he does,
• 1:23:37
  SPEAKER_02: I could not spend so much of that mental space,
• 1:23:40
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:23:40
  SPEAKER_02: puzzling and I could just like sink in and enjoy it.
• 1:23:43
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm with you.
• 1:23:44
  SPEAKER_02: I need to finish reading them and also reread them.
• 1:23:48
  SPEAKER_00: Well, excellent.
• 1:23:49
  SPEAKER_00: Well, do you want to, I mean, I think we can do this in lightning fashion.
• 1:23:52
  SPEAKER_00: For sure.
• 1:23:52
  SPEAKER_00: Some books that you think maybe could make your list if you only read them.
• 1:23:59
  SPEAKER_02: For sure.
• 1:23:59
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 1:23:59
  SPEAKER_02: you mentioned,
• 1:24:00
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 1:24:00
  SPEAKER_02: this is taking a total flyer because I don't know very much about it,
• 1:24:03
  SPEAKER_02: but it's the siren song of the big book,
• 1:24:05
  SPEAKER_02: but...
• 1:24:06
  SPEAKER_02: Shattenfro,
• 1:24:07
  SPEAKER_02: which you mentioned,
• 1:24:07
  SPEAKER_02: already I'm just intrigued and I'm like,
• 1:24:09
  SPEAKER_02: maybe that's going to be one of those.
• 1:24:11
  SPEAKER_02: But Blinding, speaking of big books, you know, Mercia, Carterescu, Solenoid made a big splash.
• 1:24:18
  SPEAKER_02: But even before that came out,
• 1:24:19
  SPEAKER_02: I had Blinding on my shelf and it's one of those that I keep saving because I think
• 1:24:23
  SPEAKER_02: it's going to be so great.
• 1:24:25
  SPEAKER_02: A couple more big ones from Dalky since we're giving them that love that keep,
• 1:24:29
  SPEAKER_02: I just,
• 1:24:30
  SPEAKER_02: I think they could end up being on this is The Garden of Seven Twilights and Antagony.
• 1:24:34
  SPEAKER_02: But a few more, I'll just burn through them.
• 1:24:37
  SPEAKER_02: A book that I just recently picked up called Monument Maker by David Keenan.
• 1:24:41
  SPEAKER_02: Sounds fascinating to me.
• 1:24:43
  SPEAKER_02: Tomb of Sand by Chitanjali Sri.
• 1:24:48
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 1:24:48
  SPEAKER_02: despite the face you're going to make when I say this,
• 1:24:51
  SPEAKER_02: the Books of Jacob by Ogut Takarcik,
• 1:24:53
  SPEAKER_02: I still think could be there.
• 1:24:55
  SPEAKER_02: I did mention Your Face Tomorrow, that whole trilogy.
• 1:24:59
  SPEAKER_02: And then just a couple more.
• 1:25:00
  SPEAKER_02: Praiseworthy by Alexis Wright that just came out.
• 1:25:03
  SPEAKER_02: And then one that I don't know much about,
• 1:25:05
  SPEAKER_02: but I just it keeps calling me and I feel like it could be one of those is Wizard
• 1:25:09
  SPEAKER_02: of the Crow.
• 1:25:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm not even going to try to pronounce the author's name because I would not do justice.
• 1:25:14
  SPEAKER_02: But that one is one that for years now,
• 1:25:17
  SPEAKER_02: it just seems like it's not only important,
• 1:25:20
  SPEAKER_02: but also just a lot of people who love it really,
• 1:25:22
  SPEAKER_02: really love it.
• 1:25:24
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if I'll say it right, but Nguye Hoa Thien Co or something like that.
• 1:25:30
  SPEAKER_00: Perennial Nobel Prize favorite, but I don't think it's going to happen.
• 1:25:36
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I would put that one on my list too.
• 1:25:39
  SPEAKER_00: It isn't on my list, but only because I hadn't thought about it.
• 1:25:42
  SPEAKER_00: It would be on mine too as an unread, but I think it probably will really affect me.
• 1:25:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's what I think too.
• 1:25:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I did just pick that one up within the last month when I saw it at the Boulder bookstore.
• 1:25:51
  SPEAKER_02: It's one that I've been wanting, just keeping an eye out.
• 1:25:53
  SPEAKER_02: It's one of those things that I wanted to find it in the wild and I did.
• 1:25:57
  SPEAKER_02: So nice.
• 1:25:59
  SPEAKER_00: Nice.
• 1:25:59
  SPEAKER_00: That's fun.
• 1:26:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:26:01
  SPEAKER_02: How about you?
• 1:26:01
  SPEAKER_02: What's on your maybe list?
• 1:26:04
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, well, you really went with some big ones, didn't you?
• 1:26:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know me.
• 1:26:09
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 1:26:11
  SPEAKER_02: Like I said, that's why the Dalky announcement today made me so happy.
• 1:26:14
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just a sucker for the big books.
• 1:26:16
  SPEAKER_02: What can I say?
• 1:26:17
  SPEAKER_00: So the ones I put on,
• 1:26:18
  SPEAKER_00: and some of these are ones I've had for a long time and keep wondering why haven't
• 1:26:24
  SPEAKER_00: I read it yet,
• 1:26:24
  SPEAKER_00: but The Known World by Edward P.
• 1:26:26
  SPEAKER_00: Jones.
• 1:26:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I've had that since it came out in paperback,
• 1:26:29
  SPEAKER_00: and I still haven't read it yet,
• 1:26:31
  SPEAKER_00: but I just think I will really love it.
• 1:26:34
  SPEAKER_00: And then a few of these are ones that so many of our friends talk about,
• 1:26:38
  SPEAKER_00: including you,
• 1:26:39
  SPEAKER_00: that I have not read yet,
• 1:26:40
  SPEAKER_00: like Hurricane Season by Fernanda Melchor,
• 1:26:43
  SPEAKER_00: translated by Sophie Hughes.
• 1:26:46
  SPEAKER_00: The Twilight Zone by Nona Fernandez, translated by Natasha Wimmer.
• 1:26:50
  SPEAKER_00: And Septology by Johan Fossa, translated by Damien Searles.
• 1:26:56
  SPEAKER_00: Those are ones that I really kind of think might,
• 1:26:59
  SPEAKER_00: maybe they wouldn't make the top of the list,
• 1:27:01
  SPEAKER_00: but I'm excited to read them.
• 1:27:05
  SPEAKER_00: The Years by Annie Arnaud, translated by Alison Strayer.
• 1:27:09
  SPEAKER_00: And In the Distance by Hernan Diaz.
• 1:27:12
  SPEAKER_00: I still haven't read that one yet.
• 1:27:14
  SPEAKER_00: Ah.
• 1:27:14
  SPEAKER_02: you made me very happy because you mentioned two more of mine that were very close
• 1:27:19
  SPEAKER_02: to making my list hurricane season and in the distance,
• 1:27:21
  SPEAKER_02: I was sweating blood trying to get them onto this list because they very easily
• 1:27:26
  SPEAKER_02: could have been on my top 10 list.
• 1:27:28
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm glad we at least got to mention this.
• 1:27:31
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:27:32
  SPEAKER_00: I did see you kind of breathe out that sigh there of relief.
• 1:27:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, for sure.
• 1:27:38
  SPEAKER_00: I also put on the Wolf Hall books, as we've talked about.
• 1:27:42
  SPEAKER_00: I've started that one many times, always really like it.
• 1:27:44
  SPEAKER_00: I love that historical period.
• 1:27:46
  SPEAKER_00: I love what she's doing.
• 1:27:48
  SPEAKER_00: But for one reason or another, I haven't, I guess, carried through.
• 1:27:54
  SPEAKER_02: No, that's a good one because I feel the same way.
• 1:27:57
  SPEAKER_02: I think that one definitely could have been on my list.
• 1:27:59
  SPEAKER_02: And so could the Jan Fossa books.
• 1:28:01
  SPEAKER_02: I read Septology.
• 1:28:02
  SPEAKER_02: The versions I have from Fitzcarraldo are divided up into the different books.
• 1:28:07
  SPEAKER_02: And so volume one and two is in one book.
• 1:28:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I did read those and it gave me enough of a taste to think,
• 1:28:15
  SPEAKER_02: I think you could be onto something,
• 1:28:17
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:28:17
  SPEAKER_02: Mervay and Ray and other people have praised it to the moon and back.
• 1:28:20
  SPEAKER_02: And, and I can see why.
• 1:28:22
  SPEAKER_02: So I think I'm with you.
• 1:28:23
  SPEAKER_02: I could see once I finished that one more that I'll mention, um,
• 1:28:27
  SPEAKER_02: in that kind of same thing where i've read a couple of them and it's given me
• 1:28:30
  SPEAKER_02: enough of a taste to think that it could be is um canals guards my struggle series
• 1:28:36
  SPEAKER_02: i could definitely see when i finish all of those someday i could see that one
• 1:28:41
  SPEAKER_02: being there too
• 1:28:43
  SPEAKER_00: And that's an interesting one for how big it was as they were being published and
• 1:28:50
  SPEAKER_00: how much that took up,
• 1:28:53
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:28:53
  SPEAKER_00: online space during those years of this first quarter of the 20th or the 21st century.
• 1:29:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:29:02
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I've been wanting to read this other series of books that he's been putting out.
• 1:29:08
  SPEAKER_00: So a lot of our friends...
• 1:29:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think rate them very, very, very, very highly.
• 1:29:13
  SPEAKER_00: Very highly.
• 1:29:14
  SPEAKER_00: I know.
• 1:29:15
  SPEAKER_02: I haven't either, but I have the first one and I'm... The other two are two that I plan on picking up.
• 1:29:21
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 1:29:21
  SPEAKER_02: the second one's out and the third one's not quite out yet,
• 1:29:23
  SPEAKER_02: but now I'm glad that...
• 1:29:24
  SPEAKER_00: Listeners,
• 1:29:25
  SPEAKER_00: you know who we're talking...
• 1:29:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know what books we're talking about even though we don't know their titles,
• 1:29:28
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 1:29:29
  SPEAKER_02: The Morning Star and something about a wolf and then something, something else.
• 1:29:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:29:34
  SPEAKER_02: No, they know, but yeah.
• 1:29:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:29:37
  SPEAKER_02: I am glad,
• 1:29:38
  SPEAKER_02: like you said,
• 1:29:38
  SPEAKER_02: it's kind of surprising to me that he wasn't maybe on more of these lists,
• 1:29:43
  SPEAKER_02: but I do like that he continues to,
• 1:29:46
  SPEAKER_02: like you said,
• 1:29:47
  SPEAKER_02: this,
• 1:29:47
  SPEAKER_02: this new trilogy is so highly acclaimed.
• 1:29:50
  SPEAKER_02: I do like that he is, it's not like he's faded away or anything by me.
• 1:29:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:29:53
  SPEAKER_02: He's still getting a lot of praise.
• 1:29:55
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah.
• 1:29:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:29:58
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 1:29:58
  SPEAKER_00: Well, listeners, there are our top 10 favorites of the 21st century so far, this first quarter of it.
• 1:30:06
  SPEAKER_00: And,
• 1:30:07
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:30:07
  SPEAKER_00: always in flux because we'll read more of these books and maybe some of them will
• 1:30:13
  SPEAKER_00: start to drift away.
• 1:30:14
  SPEAKER_00: But I feel pretty good about my list.
• 1:30:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'm excited about them.
• 1:30:18
  SPEAKER_00: Excited to talk a little bit about them with you, Paul.
• 1:30:21
  SPEAKER_00: And
• 1:30:23
  SPEAKER_00: you know, another one that might be in contention is the story of Lucy Galt by William Trevor.
• 1:30:29
  SPEAKER_00: Good point.
• 1:30:29
  SPEAKER_00: Which, you know, we'll be talking about next episode here in a couple of weeks.
• 1:30:33
  SPEAKER_00: Hopefully some of you are reading along.
• 1:30:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:30:36
  SPEAKER_00: Can't wait to talk about that one.
• 1:30:39
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 1:30:39
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Paul, thanks.
• 1:30:40
  SPEAKER_00: It will be a bit before we see each other on here again,
• 1:30:44
  SPEAKER_00: before we record that episode,
• 1:30:45
  SPEAKER_00: but hopefully we're not,
• 1:30:47
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:30:49
  SPEAKER_00: unfamiliar to each other.
• 1:30:50
  SPEAKER_00: We won't,
• 1:30:51
  SPEAKER_00: have that awkward comp webs when we get there.
• 1:30:53
  SPEAKER_02: No, I hope not.
• 1:30:54
  SPEAKER_02: But when you come back, I expect you to have, you know, a full long beard.
• 1:30:58
  SPEAKER_02: I expect you to have like some kind of wild creature slung over your shoulder as
• 1:31:02
  SPEAKER_02: you come back from the wilds.
• 1:31:03
  SPEAKER_00: And of, of course my, and my list will here will change.
• 1:31:07
  SPEAKER_00: Cause I'll have, I'll have a roughed it, you know, I'll have really, really,
• 1:31:12
  SPEAKER_02: expanded who I am I think so absolutely you'll come back and change to me and
• 1:31:16
  SPEAKER_02: hopefully not too changed because we like you the way you are I don't want to
• 1:31:19
  SPEAKER_00: change too much I have a feeling I won't I'll resist it yeah exactly I think you
• 1:31:24
  SPEAKER_00: should all right well thanks everybody we'll talk to you soon all right thanks
• 1:31:29
  SPEAKER_00: everybody
• 1:31:33
  Thank you.
• 1:31:34
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:31:54
  SPEAKER_00: If you'd like to donate to the show,
• 1:31:55
  SPEAKER_00: anything and everything,
• 1:31:57
  SPEAKER_00: even a dollar a month helps and is deeply appreciated.
• 1:32:00
  SPEAKER_00: You can become a Patreon at patreon.com slash mooks.
• 1:32:04
  SPEAKER_00: Until next time.