Latest / Beyond the Sermon / Help My Unbelief!: Conversation

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Help My Unbelief!: Conversation · Beyond the Sermon

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You're listening to Beyond the Sermon, the podcast the First
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Methodist Church in Collingswood, NJ.
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On our podcast, the goal is not just to share our sermons, but
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to go beyond the sermon and talk about what we're learning and
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what God is doing in us and in our community.
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This fall, we're living in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke,
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and John and learning how to live from our model, Jesus.
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This conversation was inspired by our series The Gospels.
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You can find more information about our church at
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fumccollingswood.org. Thanks for joining us for this
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conversation. I got 2 boys 3 and under and one
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of them has not been sleeping for a whole week.
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And you never gave a resolution on how to get the demon out.
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You just said you were praying it's to sleep better.
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It's true, and you never told us how you fixed it.
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Well, that's, that's because I don't think we did at that
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point. We kind of got over that hump
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and that opposition and then everything was like full speed
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pack and go to Uganda. And then it wasn't until we
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started to settle in, in Uganda, in Arua, the town we lived in
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our first term and, and came back and started happening
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again. And, and I've shared that story
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before. I don't know if it was in a
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sermon or here on the podcast, but starts coming back,
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coincides after a little while with our missionary pastors
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coming to visit us. And we're talking with them
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about it. And they encouraged us to, to
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change the way we were praying a little bit to be a little more
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confrontational in it. And a little while later, like
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it wasn't an immediate kind of thing, but a little while later,
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we had a night where he didn't wake up screaming and we didn't
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have to go comfort him in the middle of the night.
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And somewhere in there he had started telling us that the
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little guys were trying to get him at night, like he had gotten
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old enough to have more vocabulary, more words, more
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communication skills, whatever still has the little guys were
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trying to get him. And then so this night happens
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where he doesn't wake up screaming, comes into the
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kitchen the next one, like you didn't wake up last night.
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He said, no, I did. But no little guys.
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No, they came. He said, well, why don't you
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scream? They didn't try to get you and
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he said no, they did. But there were four soldiers on
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the corners of my bed and they chased them away.
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See, I think that resolution would have been helpful
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yesterday. Yeah.
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And understand because what I got was toddler tantrums are
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demonic, which I didn't disagree with.
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Theologically or logically? Sure, but without getting the
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resolution of what was unique besides a series of bad nights.
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Fair. So that was very.
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Very helpful well, if you're listening to the sermon
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yesterday, listen to a podcast this week.
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Well, we'll. Post it on Facebook and be like
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if you want the second-half. You want the rest of the story?
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Yeah, I did think about going back to it, but it was a time
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thing. That's OK.
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I felt the time crunch. People get over it and if they
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don't, well then just like the podcast, it goes for however
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long it needs to go. And if I need to cut out 20
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minutes, it's fine. I really liked at the end when
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you were talking about what Jesus says about prayer and in
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some translations, prayer and fasting.
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Yeah, because when you when you mentioned that Jill leaned over,
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I was like, Jesus didn't have time to fast.
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Like when the birthday, it was like, and I was like, you're
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right. And I was like, this will be
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great to talk about on the podcast about like preparatory
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and being living a prayerful life and regular fasting and all
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of that so that when these things occur that we are
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spiritually prepped and fueled and.
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Right. Because it's not the kind of
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thing where it's like, oh, big thing happening, let me go, take
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some time fast, get prayed up. Yeah, like.
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In those moments, like you, you've got to be ready.
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And it's that lifestyle, that of prayer and fasting, other
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spiritual disciplines as well, but it's that lifestyle where
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you're really, you're fighting the battle.
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Yeah. Before you're ever confronted
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with the battle. Yeah, one of the things I just
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saw recently, they're calling it like the power of four.
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I don't know if you've seen this clip where someone did a study
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about the effects of reading scripture and reading Scripture
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a certain amount of times a week.
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And I've not seen the clip, but I've seen actual the data of
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research on it, yeah. And so they find this
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interesting spike from three to four that signal like.
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Three to four What, Jeremy? Three reading the reading
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scripture three to four times a week.
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Yeah. So one to three barely changes.
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Well, but there's like, there's zero and there's like.
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Yeah, obviously once you start reading Scripture once a week,
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week, there's that initial bump, let's say, based off of the
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visual, I remember, yeah, let's say like a 10% boost and then it
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goes 12 and then it goes 15 and then it goes to like 6070.
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On when you hit. 4 When you hit four and you're reading
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scripture four times a week and all of the things that they were
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talking about, like feelings of loneliness, feelings of lack of
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purpose, feelings of hopelessness, feel like all of
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those things are reduced between like 30 to 70%, depending on
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which specific 1 specifically when you get to that 4 times was
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like meditating on the word daily.
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Oh my gosh, that should, someone should write about that.
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Like, but it's, it's one of those things that I think
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sometimes people are like, oh, let me try reading the Bible and
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they read it once and nothing super magical happens in their
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life after one reading or like, oh, maybe I'll try and do it
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like once a week and that'll be the Band-Aid over my issues.
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But it's like the regular daily walking with God.
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That's when we. See, that's interesting because,
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because then you'd imagine there's another big spike at
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like 6 or 7 or something like, but it's not, it's there's just
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this, it's a steady increase from that point like.
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So let me ask you this. What does it look like for you
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to engage Scripture on the daily or?
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Doesn't because you haven't made it a requirement yet for staff
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my interactions with scripture on the daily.
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Yeah, or like weekly, like if you've seen this data, you've,
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you know it like, but what's it mean for you actually, when you
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engage Scripture? Are you sitting down and you're
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plowing through three to five chapters a day?
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You're you're reading like one verse and doing deep Greek
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translation work. What's it recently for me?
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For me as of late, my this is probably not healthy and so I'm
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not recommending it and I'll keep this in the podcast.
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My school work involves so much scripture that I'm usually in my
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school readings And then when there's a scripture or a theme
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and they're quoting scripture, pointing to scripture in that,
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then I was like, oh, I need to chew on this and dive deeper
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into this. So then I pause and I go and
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grab my Bible and I read the little context around that
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section and pray over it. And because I'm also, I'm
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praying over the unique thing of my school work, I guess in
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general is that like I'm praying over my school books.
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And like before I get into my books, that it wouldn't just be
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an information to receive and then dump, but that it would
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draw me to God, closer to God. That it would be beneficial in
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my life and my family's life that I could use it to help
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others and to help the ministry. And so I kind of go into my
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schoolwork prayerfully. And then whatever comes out of
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that, I usually dig a little deeper.
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And sometimes it's like verse sticks out and I just need to
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like sit with it and pray on it. And so that's when I transfer
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from workout machine while reading to massage chair while
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praying. And that's, yeah, that's kind of
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been my routine as of late since I'm back in the in the semester.
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And luckily all my books point me to Jesus.
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So there's a there's a lot of scripture being quoted.
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There is one where I was reading a chapter.
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I was like maybe 1/3 of what I'm reading is scripture.
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It's just like giant scripture notations and then going after.
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So I haven't had much daily pick up a Bible.
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I mean, besides sure, our reading plan.
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But even within the reading plan, if I'm being honest.
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But I can lie on the podcast. But if I were to be honest, it's
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almost getting treated like schoolwork in the sense of like
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I'm adding it to my weekly reading list and so it's not
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always a chapter a day. I can do 2 here, 3 here, 7 on
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Saturday. So I feel good about myself on
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Sunday, but it hasn't been a consistency in regards to the
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pace in which I'm doing scripture.
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How does it look like for you in this season?
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Yeah, I mean well. As you have 14 books on your
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desk that I think you're all reading.
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No, that's not quite true. I think I've got 6 I'm reading
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right now 8. But for me with the the reading
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plan that has kind of focused me in for this season, which I've
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appreciated and I've appreciated.
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I was sharing on call with my cohort the other day how neat
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it's been to be reading through the gospels together as a church
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and for people to come up and say, oh, I was reading this and
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like, you know, this is what stood out to me.
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And or for one of my kids to say, you know, I saw this or
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heard this in the the wake up call to be able to be in the
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same place with people and have that shared sense of community
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in the scriptures has been neat. That's not too far different
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from the way I normally do. I'm not, I'm not the person who
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is going to say like I need to read through the entire Bible
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every year. There's a place for that.
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And I think it can help you get the overarching sweep of
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scripture in mind a little better.
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But for me it's it's too much and I end up getting behind and
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then I end up giving up usually. So somewhere, somewhere around a
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chapter is kind of the sweet spot for me and just approach it
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asking Jesus, you know, what's what's something in here you
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want to highlight for me? And sometimes that sends me down
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a rabbit hole of, oh, when Jesus was talking about this, you
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know, he's quoting from this and it reminds me of this story is
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from this story in the Old Testament or whatever.
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And so I'll like look at that and see what's similar.
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Or there will be a word or a phrase that kind of sticks out.
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And I'm like, oh, I wonder, like I was having a conversation with
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somebody recently and he was talking, He was talking slash
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asking me about the distinction between the Greek words logos
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for word and Rhema for word, because in English they both
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just get translated word. And so, you know, John one says
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in the beginning was the words, the logos.
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It's the idea, the concept, the unchanging idea kind of thing.
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But when Jesus is in the desert, I'm pretty sure when he says man
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shall not live on bread alone, but by every word that proceeds
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from the mouth of God, which in our minds we think, oh, it's the
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scriptures, Jesus talking about the scriptures, the logos, he
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actually says the Rhema of God that proceeds from the mouth of
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God. And so it's the Rhema is more
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the, the spoken word, the expressed word, not usually
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referencing written words and that kind of stuff.
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And so it's like, oh, well, then maybe there's dual meaning
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there. It's, you know, it's he's
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thinking back to Scripture because he's quoting Scripture,
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but he's also looking at, you know, the the word that God had
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just spoken over him in the baptism.
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And so I get, I get nerdy about that kind of stuff sometimes and
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but yeah, just. And then trying to come back to
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all right, what's the thing in here that God wants me to kind
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of meditate on during the day and just kind of try to keep
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coming back to it as he brings it back to mind.
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So that way it's not just like information in, I don't know,
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it's that meditation, it's that steeping like a bag of tea in
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the cup of water where it's in there for a while and it takes a
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while to make a difference. You just stick a tea bag in and
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pull it out. You're just drinking a cup of
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hot water. And, and the more time I spend
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in Scripture, and I'm talking longitudinally, you know, like
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over the length of years, not the more time I spend per day,
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but the longer that I engage in Scripture over time, the more of
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those connections I see in the more of those things sink down
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in. And then, you know, even if it's
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not something that I've intentionally sat down to, I'm
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going to memorize this verse. The Spirit brings them to mind
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at different times and so helpful.
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Yeah, since we don't normally touch on demons very often,
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which I'm glad that you like acknowledged at the end there of
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like the if you're a little thrown off or this video or
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you're like, wait, we don't go to Pentecostal church.
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You didn't say Pentecostal, but yeah, all that kind of stuff.
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I was curious maybe what was your because I doubt and correct
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me if I'm wrong, in your church growing up was there a lot of
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focus on demons? Absolutely not.
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So what was your first like exposure to not like just the
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concept because in your reading scripture the concept comes up,
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but what was your first exposure to like?
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Oh, this may be prevalent in my life and something to take into
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consideration. I think in a lot of ways it was
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that experience with Tim kind of opened my eyes to, oh, wow,
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there's a lot more here than I've been willing to give
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credit. It was interesting in Uganda
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because so much of their worldview is shaped by the
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spiritual, you know, they they don't have them followed the
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same post enlightenment kind of trajectory that the West has
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and. Those enlightenment meaning.
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Focused on rational thought. The vision between science and
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faith that says we can explain everything through science.
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Yeah, they're in Uganda. Their, their culture, their
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worldview is much more shaped by the spiritual realities.
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And then when we got to Uru, I can remember first time I was
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pulling into town. It wasn't the first time I was
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pulling into town, but I can remember the time I was pulling
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into town, pulled into the bank and I see this guy walking.
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He's got like a shaman stick and he's not particularly well
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dressed. He looks a little out there.
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And. And I asked one of the other
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missionaries was I was like, so that he's like, he's one of the
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witch doctors, right. OK.
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Like this is this is a new world.
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This is a new world. That's really an old world.
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Yeah, new to me. So I think living overseas
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definitely shaped that in a different way.
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Like part of the reason I felt like I couldn't ignore this
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aspect of the Gospels as we were going through it.
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I think it's been like the last two weeks I've seen, and it
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makes sense with with Halloween coming up and all that kind of
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stuff. But I've seen a post on Facebook
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advertising psychic readings, I think at a coffee shop in
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Oakland. I've seen we've gotten an e-mail
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from one of the local libraries, not the one here in
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Collingswood, but one of the local libraries advertising
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tarot reading for teens. Come and learn how to read tarot
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cards. Saw another post on a local
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group inviting people. Ever wanted to go for a walk
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with a witch? Let's set up a time.
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And in these areas, could be Night Park, Cooper Park, Cooper
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River Park. Yeah.
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I'm even willing to go into Philly and seeing these things
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just like so much of my life. It can be easy to pretend like
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that aspect of reality doesn't exist anymore, but it does.
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And. And people are tapping into it.
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Who I think recognize what they're doing, but there are
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other people who I don't think realize the, the powers that
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exist behind some of these things that they might think are
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just, you know, kind of fun or, you know, interesting or but but
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there's real, there's real power behind it.
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And it's not power that's coming from the Holy Spirit.
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That's for sure. Yeah.
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And I find what those things is. I've had friends and stuff that
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that are into tear cards. And I actually met a witch.
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I forgot I met a witch in Connecticut.
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She was a friend of a friend and all that kind of stuff.
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And there was a girl in high school I went to that grew up
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Wiccan. And so I've had some
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conversations with them and. And in general, the modern.
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Wiccans it's in their mind how it's a karma based magic and
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since they want good in their life they try to do positive
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spells to make things happen. I from either of them have never
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heard heard a testimony of what they wanted actually happening.
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Yeah, but also from people on the receiving end.
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The only thing I've ever heard is that their hope gets drawn
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towards more of the stuff. And so that's where you get a
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tarot card reading or go to a medium with mediums.
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There's a whole plethora of scam artists.
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Then also people that you know, actually tap into the spiritual
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stuff sounds like, OK, well then why isn't everyone wanting the
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stock market if it only cost 10 bucks to go to a medium and
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right? And you make the argument of
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different ones, just contact the dead versus whatever.
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But at the end, people are like, Oh no, this one's a real one.
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They told me that my grandma was already dead.
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I was like, well, you knew that, but in their mind it was it
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brought them a sense of connection and hope.
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And it's like, OK, well First off, our hopes in Jesus and 2nd
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off, if your grandma was good with Jesus, you already know
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you're going to see her later. So what?
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What's why is this going to alter your view of life when if
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it's fixed on Jesus and the good news, your mind should have
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already been there. And also, why are you paying 250
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bucks for this random lady? That's it's always so
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fascinating that we'll go to the most interesting corners of the
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world seeking hope or direction right there.
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Cards, better understanding of yourself or your future or your
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purpose. And yet I'm not surprised at
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all. Like it's this for me.
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I'm more surprised with people that are within the church.
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And it's like, OK, there's a big disconnect if you go to church
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all the time and these things you're searching for aren't
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already found in Jesus. Yeah, that for me is yellow to
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red flag. Like when a Christian comes up
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to you and says, oh, I read my horoscope today and yeah, all
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you did. Was read a fortune cookie
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someone threw online and then they tagged, you know, 1 of 12
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symbols onto it. So you feel like it's
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personalized. I just have too many people, my
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generation that are like super into it and like it guides their
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dating and it guides their all that kind of stuff.
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And I'm just like, you're the people of science that think
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that religion is ridiculous. But then you're going to like
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some of the practices of the older religion, oldest
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religions, and yet it's not even the stuff that they believed
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about it. It's just fortune cookies
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anyway. Go to Jesus, go to Jesus.
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I just want to I'm going to get too flustered because I'm around
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it so much. And I mean, they think it's so
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logical. That's what that's what baffles
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me is like Jesus, that stuff. I already know that stuff's
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wrong, but like. But there's a Leo.
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You're a Leo. Oh my gosh, these ten different
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websites said 10 different things are going to happen to
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you today and it's it's just a whole mess and Scott finish.
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I don't I don't want to close it on beside just me screaming.
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Just go to Jesus. Feel like it should be a better,
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less ranty ending. Yeah.
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And just want to say that like us Pooh poohing or just Jeremy,
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I'm not going to make Scott part of this Jeremy Pooh poohing,
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tarot cards, mediums, proclaimed witches, all of that stuff.
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It does not mean that if you don't engage in those things,
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you're all set fine and dandy. There's other things in which
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you can go to for hope and a sense of purpose and all of
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those things that are not Jesus. These specific ones.
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It's almost very clear just by those means what's being sought
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after and how people are being misdirected.
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Rather than some things that could be good, could be bad.
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Whether you're putting your hope and purpose and sense of
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whatever in those instead of Jesus, these are more of the
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like obvious. There's Where's the good?
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And then, yeah, and I think I want to end here where I ended
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yesterday, right. The the purpose of talking about
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this isn't to try to make people afraid.
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The purpose and talking about it isn't to try to get people to
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see a demon under every Bush, right.
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Sometimes stuff happens in life. That's just life happening in
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the world we live in. Consequences of sin.
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Consequences of sin or even just you get a flat tire on the way
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to church. Was it spiritual warfare or did
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the did the construction truck that was driving down that road
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the day before drop a nail like? And also, I wouldn't always want
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to call things out as bad spiritual stuff just because
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it's something we don't like, right?
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You get popped tire, God could have been saving you from a car
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accident that was going to happen in the next few miles and
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we will never know sure which is which.
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Like there's absolutely complexity as you were talking
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about yesterday, but. The point is, don't try to paint
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a demon's face on every bad thing that happens.
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And we already know who wins this war, right?
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That's, that's what Scripture tells us, is one day Jesus is
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going to come back and he's going to set all things right.
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And there's going to be judgement on all these creatures
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of rebellion and unholiness and we're not going to have to deal
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with them anymore. And even now in this life in the
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world, the same spirit that raised Jesus from the dead lives
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in US and has called us to himself and has empowered us and
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authorized us to engage with that those realities.
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And so we don't have to be afraid, but we do need to be
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aware. Well, that's our conversation
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for today, but that doesn't mean the conversation is over.
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We'd love to hear your thoughts on these topics as well.
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To ask a question about anything we've discussed in this episode
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or to join the conversation, you can head over to
27:22
fumccollingswood.org podcast. Thanks for being part of this
27:28
conversation.