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Dr. Fraud: Do NOT respond to texts about unpaid tolls · Talking Michigan Transportation

• 0:07
  Jeff Cranson: Hello, welcome to the Talking Michigan Transportation Podcast.
• 0:10
  Jeff Cranson: I'm Jeff Cranson.
• 0:11
  Jeff Cranson: Right now, just about every one of us has received a scam text on our cell phone saying that we have an unpaid bill for a tolling facility.
• 0:26
  Jeff Cranson: It's a big problem in Michigan and other states.
• 0:30
  Jeff Cranson: At MDOT, we've done some creative things to try to educate the public.
• 0:33
  Jeff Cranson: The Attorney General's office has also been helpful.
• 0:37
  Jeff Cranson: So in my research I discovered a real specialist in this area, Dr.
• 0:44
  Jeff Cranson: J.
• 0:44
  Jeff Cranson: Michael Skiba, who is a program chair for fraud management at Colorado State University, global, and he's also known as Dr.
• 0:54
  Jeff Cranson: Fraud and he's done media all over the country really all over the world, talking about this.
• 1:00
  Jeff Cranson: He has a real passion for trying to alert people to these kinds of scams and tell them why you shouldn't click on or answer a text or email or anything claiming to be soliciting an unpaid toll.
• 1:13
  Jeff Cranson: It's especially troubling that this is happening in Michigan, where we don't have any toll roads.
• 1:18
  Jeff Cranson: We have a few toll bridges, but obviously people have easy passes and things when they travel in other states and so they easily think, if they get one of these texts, that they must be behind on a toll from travels somewhere else and they think it's only a few dollars, so I'd rather just pay this and not be hassled.
• 1:39
  Jeff Cranson: And they don't realize that this smishing scam is just an attempt to get their information.
• 1:43
  Jeff Cranson: Obviously to get their information, obviously to get their credit card or banking information.
• 1:47
  Jeff Cranson: So before Dr Skiba joins the conversation, I wanted you to hear some brief audio from a video that Director Wefric of MDOT recorded alerting the public to this scam, and then you'll hear from Dr Skiba.
• 2:02
  Jeff Cranson: I hope you enjoy the conversation.
• 2:04
  Jeff Cranson: Government agencies will not request personal information through email over the phone or text Dr J.
• 2:11
  Jeff Cranson: Michael Skiba, who is known better in the world of fraud detection as Dr Fraud.
• 2:18
  Jeff Cranson: Thank you for taking time to talk about this.
• 2:21
  Jeff Cranson: As you know, Michigan, like many states and I think this is actually a worldwide phenomenon has been hit hard with these tolling tech scams, and I've seen some interviews where you offer some really good insight on the psychology of why people bite on this, and I think those of us who are naturally skeptical about such things kind of scratch our heads and think you know, why would anybody take that seriously?
• 2:45
  Jeff Cranson: So can you talk about that?
• 2:48
  J. Michael Skiba: Yeah, definitely, Jeff, and yeah, thanks for having me first off.
• 2:51
  J. Michael Skiba: Great to, yeah, great to be here.
• 2:53
  J. Michael Skiba: And yeah, I think you know it's so interesting because what we find, what I find, is that scams are seasonal.
• 3:00
  J. Michael Skiba: Right, it shifts throughout the year.
• 3:02
  J. Michael Skiba: So you know, back around, you know, come September you're going to have back to school type scams.
• 3:07
  J. Michael Skiba: You know, you know, come the holidays you have shipping scams, valentine's Day you have, you know, your flowers have been delivered scams.
• 3:14
  J. Michael Skiba: It literally goes the gamut.
• 3:16
  J. Michael Skiba: Now, what we usually see in the summer is we see spikes in travel, of course.
• 3:20
  J. Michael Skiba: So then you know you're going to see Airbnb scams, you're going to see scams related to airlines.
• 3:25
  J. Michael Skiba: But this year they tried a new flavor on it.
• 3:27
  J. Michael Skiba: They figured they'd go back to the old, you know, good old American road trip and target us on our easy path.
• 3:33
  J. Michael Skiba: So and it really started probably about two, three months ago, you know, kind of coming on everyone's radar.
• 3:41
  J. Michael Skiba: You know I started hearing things, you know getting asked, you know from media circles and others, kind of what I was seeing, and it just has grown massively.
• 3:50
  J. Michael Skiba: I saw a statistic the other day that said that this type of scan, this particular flavor related to E-ZPass and Tolls has increased 900 percent since January, which is phenomenal and I'll be honest with you, jeff, I think it's probably double, triple that, because you know that's just based on what.
• 4:09
  J. Michael Skiba: A lot of people don't even report it.
• 4:10
  J. Michael Skiba: So I mean that's just based on the stats they know.
• 4:12
  J. Michael Skiba: So I mean, literally, as you can tell, it's just full court press on this right now.
• 4:17
  J. Michael Skiba: So what they're doing is a couple of things that that's happening here, which is why this is such an issue, is one you know.
• 4:24
  J. Michael Skiba: You can't go anywhere without hearing the term ai, right, even a coffee shop, I mean, it's just everywhere.
• 4:30
  J. Michael Skiba: But but ai has been used in fraud scams for years, but specifically of late, they have really, really honed in their efforts on it.
• 4:40
  J. Michael Skiba: Um, and they are, they're just bombarding, bombarding people with with, you know, could be email, could be a text or could be a phone call.
• 4:49
  J. Michael Skiba: You know, from wherever state that you reside in, you know they're claiming to be the, you know, thruway authority, travel authority, highway authority, attorney general's office.
• 4:59
  J. Michael Skiba: I mean they're trying all different kinds of flavors to try to get you to bite.
• 5:04
  J. Michael Skiba: So they're putting out all these lines out there, but they're just coming at us consumers at every single angle.
• 5:12
  J. Michael Skiba: So they're just trying to manipulate that.
• 5:14
  J. Michael Skiba: Now they're using AI Back in the old days I say in the old days, it was only like five years ago A lot of this stuff was manual, right.
• 5:21
  J. Michael Skiba: They have to go to websites, find out Jeff Cranson How's his first name, last name?
• 5:25
  J. Michael Skiba: Where does he travel?
• 5:26
  J. Michael Skiba: Does he ever?
• 5:27
  J. Michael Skiba: You know a lot of OSINT open source investigative tactics they use.
• 5:32
  J. Michael Skiba: Now they use AI so they can, you know, attack databases and maybe download.
• 5:37
  J. Michael Skiba: You know everyone that has, you know, has had a toll violation, let's say.
• 5:42
  J. Michael Skiba: I mean, I mean, there's things that they can access through the dark web and they just bombard people and they constantly, you know, constantly evolve their tactics almost by the millisecond with AI.
• 5:54
  J. Michael Skiba: So people, you know, are just, it's just literally, like they're getting.
• 5:58
  J. Michael Skiba: It's kind of like, you know, being in the middle of a water balloon fight with you know, when it's 20 v 1.
• 6:02
  J. Michael Skiba: It's just like every triangle they're just, you know, bombarding you with.
• 6:07
  J. Michael Skiba: So that's the issue.
• 6:09
  J. Michael Skiba: And what they do is they use these very deep psychological tactics that have again been used for hundreds and hundreds of years in fraud and scams.
• 6:17
  J. Michael Skiba: You know, sense of urgency they're using, you know, sense of authority, they're using legitimacy and credibility through the way that these scams look, you know they're visual, some have QR codes.
• 6:29
  J. Michael Skiba: I mean they look real official.
• 6:31
  J. Michael Skiba: So I mean really from the gamut of when they first a consumer first gets you know, you know phished or texts or smished or whatever it is right you know, and then they open it and it looks authentic.
• 6:44
  J. Michael Skiba: And then you know, hopefully they don't, but if they do engage, I mean it sends them down a wrong path.
• 6:49
  J. Michael Skiba: So I mean there's so many things to talk about here, but people are just being completely bombarded with this and, because it's new, there's only a few segments out there media-wise.
• 7:01
  J. Michael Skiba: And you know, even though the AGs I've seen the attorney generals and even again, the highway authorities, transportation authorities of every state have put out notices, the FTC has put out a warning, it's still not reaching the masses.
• 7:14
  J. Michael Skiba: So it's kind of still, you know, a new scam with a new flavor that a lot of people just aren't keying up.
• 7:22
  Jeff Cranson: Well, yeah, I mean, I've got people coming to me that I absolutely think would know better and they think it's legit and, and I think part of what I know you've talked about the psychology of this and I should back up and let you talk a little bit about how your work in criminal justice at Colorado State University kind of informs your passion for this topic.
• 7:42
  Jeff Cranson: But people think you it's only a few bucks.
• 7:46
  Jeff Cranson: I would rather just pay that and not be hassled and they don't realize that it's not about the few bucks, right?
• 7:53
  J. Michael Skiba: Yes, one hundred percent.
• 7:55
  J. Michael Skiba: And so what they're doing that's another psychological tactic is because it's usually a low dollar amount, right, it's usually four, ninety, nine, you know three, ninety, nine,99, even 99 cents, I've seen, right.
• 8:05
  J. Michael Skiba: So people, literally right, they're like ah, it's not worth it, why am I gonna fight and do this and that I'm just gonna click, paint out, right.
• 8:11
  J. Michael Skiba: But but the thing here is that in cases like this, um, yes, you know, if they do get 99 cents, you know a million times that's gonna, of course, add up.
• 8:21
  J. Michael Skiba: But, um, really, what they're looking for is for you to engage, because what that, what really is a lot more valuable than that, is your personal information.
• 8:28
  J. Michael Skiba: Ok, so you know, you know that that email was valid, that that that phone number was valid, that you know what your, you know your name was, where you are.
• 8:38
  J. Michael Skiba: They're going to kind, of, once you do engage and what that does, again getting back to AI, once you do engage and what that does, again getting back to AI.
• 8:44
  J. Michael Skiba: So this is what happens when they send out a billion scam texts, a second, right, they don't know.
• 8:51
  J. Michael Skiba: It's all algorithms, so they don't know.
• 8:53
  J. Michael Skiba: Some of these aren't even real numbers, right, so that computer does not know, but it's trained that once someone engages, all right.
• 9:03
  J. Michael Skiba: So let's say you get it, Jeff, and you click on something OK, maybe not even pay now, but just like you know, click here to view your bill or something like this right, that immediately gets back to their AI system and says, hey, I'm a human.
• 9:11
  J. Michael Skiba: And it's kind of like, you know, like when you, you know, win, like the old skeeball Remember those Like it's kind of like the skee, super popular, you know, you at that point get a person on their end and then it becomes human to be human.
• 9:30
  J. Michael Skiba: And that's a lot harder because then, you know, they again put that full press on you with one person, sometimes two, three, four, sometimes they have a whole team, you know, working, trying to, you know, continue on that scam with you.
• 9:47
  J. Michael Skiba: So it's kind of like they're pulling, you know, slowly pulling you down that path.
• 9:50
  J. Michael Skiba: So that's, that's a good right.
• 9:51
  J. Michael Skiba: That's one of the tactics.
• 9:52
  J. Michael Skiba: It's usually low.
• 9:53
  J. Michael Skiba: There's a massive sense of urgency there, right?
• 9:57
  J. Michael Skiba: So they usually say something like OK, this is past overdue If this is not paid within 24 hours.
• 10:07
  J. Michael Skiba: Your license or hours, your license is going to be revoked or you will be ticketed by the state police, or you know something like this.
• 10:10
  J. Michael Skiba: They're going to really, really get your emotions in it.
• 10:12
  J. Michael Skiba: So that's going to offset, you know, your logical thinking and you're going to, you know, be more apt to actually, you know, pay that amount.
• 10:20
  Jeff Cranson: So a couple of things that we've done and we're trying to be creative here and thinking of everything, and our attorney general in Michigan has also been good on the messaging on this and you mentioned that other AGs have done that.
• 10:32
  Jeff Cranson: We had our director make a brief video to share with media with her explaining, with him explaining, why you shouldn't click on this, don't engage, it's a scam, short and sweet, hopefully something that would resonate with people.
• 10:47
  Jeff Cranson: And on our dynamic message signs you know the boards that you see on the freeways we have a real tight message that says you know, be aware that toll texts are scams.
• 10:57
  Jeff Cranson: Again, we hope that helps.
• 10:59
  Jeff Cranson: Do you know of other agencies, tolling authorities or state DOTs or, like the International Bridges Tolling Tunnel Association, any group that's doing anything creative that you think is particularly effective?
• 11:13
  J. Michael Skiba: You know I've personally been involved in, you know, being native to New York I mean and of course all the travel that occurs there.
• 11:21
  J. Michael Skiba: I mean they have a lot of challenges too, because all the bridges, you know, going in and out, they have, you know, toll roads, of course, all over.
• 11:28
  J. Michael Skiba: But basically what has happened is they have involved even law enforcement.
• 11:33
  J. Michael Skiba: Okay, so it's kind of like a holistic view where you know even law enforcement is putting out notices.
• 11:38
  J. Michael Skiba: It's kind of, you know, getting back to like the community policing element of it.
• 11:41
  J. Michael Skiba: You know just trying to do those notices, informing the people, because sometimes that more you know, you know the local police departments can kind of maybe grab a reach instead of, you know, I mean the average consumer might not have a, you know, daily or weekly contact, let's say, with the AG's office, but you know they might be just randomly.
• 12:02
  J. Michael Skiba: You know they might see their police department or police officers, you know, once a week or once every few days or so.
• 12:08
  J. Michael Skiba: So that is something I think that I have seen where they've involved you know other law enforcement and even criminal justice agencies, you know Department of Criminal Justice, new York or you know any other kind of like I don't want to say level two, but those that might not be directly involved but definitely have a strong reach to kind of help spread the word.
• 12:32
  J. Michael Skiba: But I think you know, starting with what you're doing is fantastic, Absolutely.
• 12:36
  J. Michael Skiba: You know, sending as much notifications out billboards definitely a great idea.
• 12:41
  J. Michael Skiba: I know even strategic placement of billboards is important too.
• 12:45
  J. Michael Skiba: You know those high traffic areas, which is again where your Department of Transportation can come in.
• 12:49
  J. Michael Skiba: You know whether it is bridges, whether it's, you know, right at certain toll areas.
• 12:53
  J. Michael Skiba: I know that could be in Michigan.
• 12:55
  J. Michael Skiba: Of course you guys have a ton of people coming in and out, you know, during the summer months, so that could be something strategic too to look at.
• 13:02
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah, that's a good idea too.
• 13:03
  Jeff Cranson: We so that could be something strategic too to look at.
• 13:04
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah, that's a good idea too.
• 13:04
  Jeff Cranson: We will continue the conversation right after a quick break.
• 13:07
  Jeff Cranson: The Michigan Department of Transportation reminds you to slow down, follow all signs and pay attention when driving through work zones, because all employees deserve a safe place to work.
• 13:19
  Jeff Cranson: Work zone safety we're all in this together.
• 13:22
  Jeff Cranson: Talk a little bit about you.
• 13:27
  Jeff Cranson: Know how you became sort of an expert in this field?
• 13:28
  Jeff Cranson: What kind of feeds your passions in this area?
• 13:30
  J. Michael Skiba: You know, I tell you, Jeff, it really I just, you know, when I started my career as an investigator, you know I was an SIU investigator based in New York and honestly, it really it massively bothered me.
• 13:42
  J. Michael Skiba: I lost sleep at night when I learned that someone was tricked or scammed.
• 13:48
  J. Michael Skiba: You know, in those early days it was really the insurance companies.
• 13:52
  J. Michael Skiba: You know, I just you know people were committing crime against the insurance company.
• 13:55
  J. Michael Skiba: It just, it really bothered me.
• 13:56
  J. Michael Skiba: You know why, just why people do this and I kind of, just that fueled the passion of academics and research which you know led me to, you know, pursue the MBA, PHD and then teach in the area, but then also always wearing the second hat of being a very active practitioner globally, even for the UN and Interpol.
• 14:14
  J. Michael Skiba: So, like, I think it just I don't like to see people get taken advantage of, whether it's, you know, my neighbor or whether it's, you know, a huge insurance company or a state, the state of Michigan, you know.
• 14:26
  J. Michael Skiba: So it just bothers me that these groups are targeting these individuals and I think now the level again working, you know, international and for these government agencies, again specifically for the UN.
• 14:37
  J. Michael Skiba: I just came off a three-year project on and off where they were asking me to consult, and these groups that are precipitating these crimes that you are seeing in Michigan, these are highly, highly organized overseas criminal groups.
• 14:52
  J. Michael Skiba: Many of them have ties to the cartels, the terrorist cells.
• 14:57
  J. Michael Skiba: I mean, really, I've been there, I've seen it and it's extremely, extremely disturbing how there's a collaboration, if you will, on the dark side, you know, and that's they're using that.
• 15:09
  J. Michael Skiba: So all the money, you know, is just going to these, you know, areas overseas and in different areas to fuel all kinds of just horrific, disturbing crimes.
• 15:21
  J. Michael Skiba: And that's what I think bothers me is that it's just really starting to escalate.
• 15:24
  J. Michael Skiba: And I just, I mean I get calls, really, Jeff, probably I wouldn't say once a day, probably, two, three times a week, just from I don't mean professionally, I mean just friends, friends, family, just like, oh man, you know, I just got scammed here and I don't know what to do.
• 15:40
  J. Michael Skiba: Or, you know, my grandmother just fell for this one.
• 15:43
  J. Michael Skiba: I mean that's what bothers me, you know, and it kind of hits home, you know, and that's that's really where I think you know we can maybe, you know, utilize whatever resources we have and just just really, you know, just like you're doing just spread the word as much as you can.
• 15:56
  J. Michael Skiba: I think that's really hopefully going to help.
• 16:00
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah, I think what really bothers me and my colleagues is obviously any scam, any crime.
• 16:07
  Jeff Cranson: Any vulnerable victim being defrauded bothers us, but this something particularly heinous about this because we know who they're preying upon and, yeah, it's very troubling.
• 16:20
  Jeff Cranson: So I guess, real quickly, just talk a little bit about you know where you take this from here.
• 16:29
  Jeff Cranson: I mean, it's not going to be stopping soon and it sounds like the investigators, no matter how good they are, they're not going to be able to pinpoint this to any specific geographic area, right?
• 16:39
  J. Michael Skiba: Yeah.
• 16:40
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah.
• 16:41
  J. Michael Skiba: I mean, there's two things to look for right.
• 16:43
  J. Michael Skiba: What I would say is, from a consumer perspective, number one protect yourself as much as possible.
• 16:50
  J. Michael Skiba: So I always recommend a couple of things tech not technology and the human element.
• 16:53
  J. Michael Skiba: So, first off, you know, create that, that concentric circle.
• 16:57
  J. Michael Skiba: It's kind of like, you know, like Secret Service.
• 16:59
  J. Michael Skiba: If they're protecting someone, you know they have, they have circles of layers of security, someone you know they have circles of layers of security.
• 17:07
  J. Michael Skiba: This is exactly what you want to do with
• 17:08
  J. Michael Skiba: scams and fraud is start with your phone.
• 17:10
  J. Michael Skiba: You know the apps that you have.
• 17:12
  J. Michael Skiba: Make sure you're not sharing things.
• 17:14
  J. Michael Skiba: You know make sure your ride share app is not always open.
• 17:17
  J. Michael Skiba: So you're, you know, sharing your information all the time.
• 17:19
  J. Michael Skiba: You know the settings that come in all your emails and texts.
• 17:23
  J. Michael Skiba: Mark them as spam and things like that.
• 17:25
  J. Michael Skiba: Your Internet service, you know expand out to your home.
• 17:28
  J. Michael Skiba: You know your Internet service providers.
• 17:30
  J. Michael Skiba: Look at those like ring cameras and Alexa, things like that.
• 17:36
  J. Michael Skiba: I mean, you know, really tighten down your you know quote, unquote house from a personal level.
• 17:41
  J. Michael Skiba: So to use technology to kind of limit the number of these instances that are getting through in the first place, okay, um.
• 17:49
  J. Michael Skiba: Secondly, I think it's the human element.
• 17:51
  J. Michael Skiba: And here's the thing you know, when I, when I did there are types of training, even even really, probably last summer, I mean like six months, a little more than six months, maybe eight months ago I would tell people you know, verify before you click, right, verify, verify, you know, check this and that.
• 18:07
  J. Michael Skiba: Now my message is basically, in all caps in bold do not engage at all, don't click, don't reply, don't engage, because in this era, I mean, if there is an issue, someone will reach out to you, okay.
• 18:24
  J. Michael Skiba: So, for example, if you are default on your E-ZPass payments, right, and you just ignore, ignore, you know there will be a time where there will be a legitimate phone call, probably made to you, right, or you're going to get something in the mail that is maybe, you know, legit.
• 18:39
  J. Michael Skiba: So there is still legitimacy to some of these situations, but I would say 99.99 to infinity of the times, these are all scams.
• 18:50
  J. Michael Skiba: So I would say do not click, and it's very important to not touch anything.
• 18:54
  J. Michael Skiba: So don't even like.
• 18:55
  J. Michael Skiba: If it's on an outlook window, don't even open the window, don't expand the reading pane, because that could be an indicator that, hey, this person's a human, you know, just delete, delete right away, don't touch, unsubscribe, don't touch.
• 19:08
  J. Michael Skiba: This is not me, I mean, that's another you know trick that they're using too is kind of like it's a chess match, right.
• 19:14
  J. Michael Skiba: So you know, jeff, you're going to get a text that says hey, hey, Dr Fraud, you know your default on your E-Z Pass and click here.
• 19:23
  J. Michael Skiba: If this is not you, of course, right, you might be tempted to click here, right, and that's again just a trick, okay.
• 19:30
  J. Michael Skiba: So you have to be careful, you have to really really be careful.
• 19:34
  J. Michael Skiba: So I would say, from a personal perspective, that's the best approach.
• 19:37
  J. Michael Skiba: Law enforcement, really, it's going to be a matter of just collaboration, just like we saw even the COVID, the post-COVID scams, right, it's just a matter of kind of collaborating with law enforcement and getting a you know a front together.
• 19:52
  J. Michael Skiba: So, you know, on a state level in Michigan, you know kind of, you know, maybe creating a certain or having certain task forces just specific to incidents like this where, let's say, it does pivot next winter to Christmas you know, holiday shipping scams, you know the task force can immediately pivot on that.
• 20:11
  J. Michael Skiba: You know, with plan A, b, c, d, d, contact this person.
• 20:14
  J. Michael Skiba: So that's another strategy.
• 20:16
  J. Michael Skiba: I think that's going to really help us.
• 20:18
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah, yeah.
• 20:18
  Jeff Cranson: So are you still at Colorado State?
• 20:23
  J. Michael Skiba: I am, correct.
• 20:23
  J. Michael Skiba: Yes, I'm department chair there.
• 20:24
  J. Michael Skiba: That's correct, yep, I'm department chair, yep, CSU Global.
• 20:27
  J. Michael Skiba: That's correct, yep.
• 20:29
  Jeff Cranson: So did you kind of create that, that specialty.
• 20:32
  Jeff Cranson: And how did you come up with the Dr Fraud brand?
• 20:35
  Jeff Cranson: Was that yours?
• 20:37
  J. Michael Skiba: So actually, yeah, so when I started at Colorado State University, I was actually teaching, you know, because I have credential to teach business and finance as well with the NBA.
• 20:48
  J. Michael Skiba: So I started.
• 20:49
  J. Michael Skiba: I always do teach a little business, but then that of course gets me into a little of a cyber world, fraud world, which is where I've always had or sat.
• 20:56
  J. Michael Skiba: So when I took over as department chair, we developed a whole fraud and financial crime program, which is what, uh, you know, of course, my, my wheelhouse is uh, and that has grown uh into into a lot of different, uh, different areas, uh as well, and that's that's just a again a really uh, fantastic, fantastic university.
• 21:15
  J. Michael Skiba: I've been with them for for 10 years um and yeah the doctor fraud, that that.
• 21:19
  J. Michael Skiba: That really kind of happened about, I think it was right after I got my PhD.
• 21:23
  J. Michael Skiba: I mean, it was kind of like a thing where, you know, I mean there's Dr Phil, Dr Oz, et cetera, you know.
• 21:29
  J. Michael Skiba: And it was kind of funny how it started.
• 21:32
  J. Michael Skiba: I was at a conference actually in Vienna, austria, an international conference, and some folks had just been kind of talking and the guy that was introducing me he was Italian, he had a very, very heavy accent, he was kind of trying to get all these words out to introduce me and it kind of came out as Dr frog.
• 21:50
  J. Michael Skiba: It was like a Dr Michael Skiba, the frog of a, and some people, when I come off, came off stage, were kind of calling me Dr fraud.
• 21:56
  J. Michael Skiba: And I'm like, oh, you know, it's like later that day I'm like this is kind of cool, I want to fight.
• 22:00
  J. Michael Skiba: You know, this is kind of like my alter ego.
• 22:02
  J. Michael Skiba: So really it started, um, you know, as just you know, a little uh snippet, and then it just grew into kind of the brand.
• 22:12
  J. Michael Skiba: You know, again, I call it my alter ego.
• 22:15
  J. Michael Skiba: You know, trying to, you know, spread the word and uh, do some good and be purposeful in again preventing those vulnerable parties.
• 22:27
  J. Michael Skiba: So, that's been quite an adventure, Jeff.
• 22:30
  Jeff Cranson: No, but I think it's great that you're doing what you're doing and giving you know media around the country, especially a go-to.
• 22:38
  Jeff Cranson: That CNBC story you participated in I think was probably the most comprehensive thing I've seen on this topic and it was very, very, very good.
• 22:47
  Jeff Cranson: Is there anything else you want to say to people about this topic?
• 22:52
  Jeff Cranson: And I mean, you went over the best tips, I think, but anything else.
• 22:57
  J. Michael Skiba: Yeah, I think, just in short, again, just you know, do not click.
• 23:01
  J. Michael Skiba: I mean that I guess would be my message is that you know, if enjoy your road trips, hit the road.
• 23:06
  J. Michael Skiba: Michigan's got some of the most fantastic scenery in the country, so you know, hit the road, Don't be scared.
• 23:11
  J. Michael Skiba: But just again, you have to be careful, don't be.
• 23:14
  J. Michael Skiba: I say, don't be paranoid, just be cautious.
• 23:16
  J. Michael Skiba: That's how you have to be these days, you, and just kind of hit all those security things I talked about and just spread the word.
• 23:22
  J. Michael Skiba: You know, just, you know, honestly, sometimes, just you know telling your friends and family, maybe your parents that are, you know, over 75 and aren't familiar with phone usage, I mean just things like that are really going to help.
• 23:35
  J. Michael Skiba: So I think, just kind of spreading the word a little bit, but again you know not to be paranoid, just have some, still have some fun out there, I think.
• 23:41
  Jeff Cranson: So, again, you know not to be paranoid, just have some.
• 23:43
  Jeff Cranson: Still have some fun out there, I think so.
• 23:44
  Jeff Cranson: Well, I certainly appreciate your plug for our beautiful state, especially coming from someone who obviously has spent some time in upstate New York and in Colorado, which are both beautiful places too.
• 23:51
  Jeff Cranson: So thank you for that.
• 23:53
  J. Michael Skiba: Appreciate that.
• 23:54
  J. Michael Skiba: Yeah, you guys have some fantastic fishing there.
• 23:59
  Jeff Cranson: So, yes, well, thank you so much for doing this, for taking the time to do this, and good luck, as you keep spreading the word, and I think this is one of those things we're going to have to learn to live with.
• 24:08
  Jeff Cranson: So we're probably going to have to accept that it's all about containment and not about getting rid of it entirely.
• 24:14
  Jeff Cranson: Correct, correct.
• 24:16
  J. Michael Skiba: Yeah, yeah, it was really a pleasure.
• 24:17
  J. Michael Skiba: A pleasure being on the podcast and everything.
• 24:20
  J. Michael Skiba: Really great job.
• 24:21
  J. Michael Skiba: I'm more than happy to cooperate in the future.
• 24:24
  J. Michael Skiba: If you need anything else, I'm definitely here for you.
• 24:26
  Jeff Cranson: All right, thank you.
• 24:27
  Jeff Cranson: I'd like to thank you once more for tuning in to Talking Michigan Transportation.
• 24:31
  Jeff Cranson: You can find show notes and more on Apple Podcasts or Buzzsprout.
• 24:35
  Jeff Cranson: I also want to acknowledge the talented people who help make this a reality each week, starting with Randy Debler, who skillfully edits the audio, Jesse Ball, who proofs the content, Courtney Bates, who posts the podcast to various platforms, and Jacke Salinas, who transcribes the audio to make it accessible to all.