Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / Gaming & Neurodivergence: How to Make Gaming Healthier at Home [with Andrew Kinch]

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Gaming & Neurodivergence: How to Make Gaming Healthier at Home [with Andrew Kinch] · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

0:05
Speaker 1: Hello, Welcome to the Happy Families Podcast. If you're a
0:07
Speaker 1: parent who has battled screens, specifically gaming, if you say
0:12
Speaker 1: to your child it's time to get off now, and
0:14
Speaker 1: they say, just one more round, just five more minutes.
0:17
Speaker 1: Not yet, everyone's still on. I got to stay out
0:19
Speaker 1: for another however much longer, and you kind of put
0:22
Speaker 1: your head in your hands and think, how many more
0:23
Speaker 1: years of this do I need to go through? Maybe
0:26
Speaker 1: you've even had that experience of a game control, of
0:29
Speaker 1: sailing across the room, when you've put your foot down
0:31
Speaker 1: and said, no, it's enough, it's time for dinner. We're
0:34
Speaker 1: going to eat dinner together as a family. In the
0:36
Speaker 1: worst cases, I've heard of people experiencing violence in the
0:40
Speaker 1: home because a son or a daughter hasn't wanted to
0:43
Speaker 1: stop gaming. Gaming can be a source of great joy,
0:46
Speaker 1: but it can also be a source of tremendous conflict
0:48
Speaker 1: and challenge, with so much of gaming happening in unhealthy ways.
0:54
Speaker 1: Today on the Happy Families Podcast, we talk about unhealthy
0:57
Speaker 1: versus healthy gaming. We talk about gaming addiction and some
1:00
Speaker 1: tips that parents can use to help them keep gaming
1:03
Speaker 1: healthy at home and prevent problems. My guest today from
1:07
Speaker 1: Game Aware is Andrew Kinch, game aware founder. I'll tell
1:12
Speaker 1: you about him and get into this conversation right after this. Hello,
1:19
Speaker 1: and welcome to the Happy Family Podcasts, where you get
1:20
Speaker 1: real parenting solutions every single day. It's Australia's most downloaded
1:23
Speaker 1: parenting podcast. My name's doctor Justin Coulson. I'm joined today
1:27
Speaker 1: by Andrew Kinch, founder of game Aware. Andrew was a
1:30
Speaker 1: competitive and casual gamer for thirty years, also a teacher
1:33
Speaker 1: of health and wellbeing for fifteen and a dad to
1:36
Speaker 1: two kids, and he runs game Aware. Game Aware Well,
1:42
Speaker 1: actually I'm not going to tell you much about it.
1:43
Speaker 1: I'm going to let Andrew do most of that, but
1:45
Speaker 1: let's just say it's about healthy screen limits and ironically
1:51
Speaker 1: spending time in games to make gaming healthier. Andrew, the
1:55
Speaker 1: main reason I've got you on the podcast today is
1:57
Speaker 1: because I've had a couple of emails from people who
1:58
Speaker 1: have told me that your work has dramatically turned things
2:02
Speaker 1: around for their family. It's made an an almost difference.
2:04
Speaker 1: So thank you for being here.
2:06
Speaker 2: Well, thank you very much for having me, and that's
2:08
Speaker 2: great to hear. To retry our best.
2:10
Speaker 1: Let's kick straight into this. What is the biggest source
2:14
Speaker 1: of pain when it comes to games in families.
2:17
Speaker 2: Oh man, I would say the conflict at home is
2:21
Speaker 2: certainly something that we hear about sort of the most.
2:25
Speaker 2: And a lot of the families that reach out to
2:26
Speaker 2: us are saying that they don't mind the gaming, they
2:29
Speaker 2: just want it to be in balance, right. They want
2:31
Speaker 2: to make sure that they're not sacrificing their sleep or
2:35
Speaker 2: school or other activities or just physical activity in general
2:39
Speaker 2: to be on the screen and gaming all the time.
2:41
Speaker 2: And a lot of the time sparents are confusing general
2:45
Speaker 2: screen time with gaming, and sure they're related, but they
2:48
Speaker 2: are distinct. You know, there are certain needs that we're
2:51
Speaker 2: definitely trying to meet when we're playing video games, and
2:55
Speaker 2: it really depends on the game that they're playing as well.
2:57
Speaker 2: So the biggest concern is the pushback, you know, the
3:01
Speaker 2: burning desire to play when parents are saying that's been enough.
3:05
Speaker 1: Okay, I want to break that down shortly, but let's
3:08
Speaker 1: go back a bit too. You just said there's a
3:10
Speaker 1: distinction between screen time and gaming, and I'm often talking
3:14
Speaker 1: about this when I'm talking to parents, mainly of girls.
3:16
Speaker 1: When it comes to screen time is this umbrellaton. But
3:19
Speaker 1: social media is not the same as well. It's a
3:21
Speaker 1: specific form of screen time, but there's other screen time
3:24
Speaker 1: as well. What does the research tell you about screen
3:28
Speaker 1: time generally and gaming specifically.
3:30
Speaker 2: I won't speak to the research too much right here.
3:32
Speaker 2: I would just say when we're working with clients who
3:36
Speaker 2: are struggling, when parents are reaching out to us for
3:39
Speaker 2: some help, we're trying to identify their motivation. Right, It's like,
3:44
Speaker 2: why is this becoming a problem for you? And why
3:46
Speaker 2: isn't it healthy? Because it's probably healthy for the majority
3:49
Speaker 2: of kids who game or young adults who game. And
3:52
Speaker 2: so what we're trying to distinguish here is are they
3:55
Speaker 2: running towards something? Are they running away from something? Or
3:59
Speaker 2: are they running after something? And I suppose breaking that
4:03
Speaker 2: down a little bit more so, we call it our
4:05
Speaker 2: cared model, so ci ED and and the first three
4:10
Speaker 2: letters are from something I think you work with quite
4:12
Speaker 2: a bit, don't you, self determination theory.
4:14
Speaker 1: Right, Okay, So we talk about that they're doing it
4:17
Speaker 1: for the sense of competence, They're doing it because they
4:20
Speaker 1: like the autonomy of the choice and they build relationships there, right,
4:23
Speaker 1: So that's the that's the model.
4:25
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, And so a lot of games are going
4:29
Speaker 2: to lean into competence, right, there's skills that they're building
4:32
Speaker 2: in the game, whether it's competitive or not, which in
4:35
Speaker 2: which case you'll you'll find, you know, relatedness involved as well.
4:39
Speaker 2: Games that lean into autonomy. An example of that one
4:42
Speaker 2: would be like Minecraft and it's creative mode. You have
4:45
Speaker 2: absolute control over your choices because you're being creative.
4:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's go back to the CAD model. So you've
4:51
Speaker 1: got competence in our time. In relatedness, what are the
4:53
Speaker 1: E and D.
4:53
Speaker 2: If we were saying that running towards something is intrinsic drivers,
4:57
Speaker 2: intrinsic motivators C, A and R, then running away for
5:01
Speaker 2: something would be E for escape. Right. So if we're struggling,
5:05
Speaker 2: as a general way of putting it, if we're struggling
5:07
Speaker 2: with something, whether it's mental health, whether it's bullying, whether
5:11
Speaker 2: it's financial, insecurity, whatever is going on. If you don't
5:15
Speaker 2: want to deal with real life, then you can jump
5:17
Speaker 2: into a game and not have to deal with it.
5:19
Speaker 1: So tell me more about the player who's running away
5:22
Speaker 1: from something. I'm really fascinated by this. To me, this
5:26
Speaker 1: strikes me as being where we move from functional, practical,
5:31
Speaker 1: enjoyable gaming to gaming that is not healthy. You're talking
5:35
Speaker 1: about the cra That makes sense to me. I'm having
5:39
Speaker 1: needs supported in a really positive way, and an environment
5:42
Speaker 1: is giving me something. But the running away from something,
5:46
Speaker 1: the escape, to me, that strikes me as particularly likely
5:49
Speaker 1: to lean into some form of dysfunction.
5:52
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I don't think it's possible to have a gaming
5:56
Speaker 2: disorder with that escape. And that's my opinion. I don't
5:59
Speaker 2: know that any thing can back that up exactly, but
6:02
Speaker 2: certainly in terms of what we see whenever things get
6:04
Speaker 2: really problematic, we have a lot of complex clients. Escape
6:07
Speaker 2: is there there's a common trend I suppose with our clients.
6:11
Speaker 2: A lot of our clients are neurodivergent, right, and even
6:15
Speaker 2: just there's all sorts of different reasons to play a
6:17
Speaker 2: lot of them positive as well in terms of accessing relatedness,
6:21
Speaker 2: for example, but the stress of being a newer divergent
6:25
Speaker 2: in a largely neurotypical world, even just that sort of
6:28
Speaker 2: low level stress, of all the different factors that can
6:31
Speaker 2: be involved, there can be escape, a reason to escape, right,
6:34
Speaker 2: But like we said, it can be a lot more acute,
6:36
Speaker 2: like bullying or comorbid disease like depression and anxiety. And whatnot.
6:41
Speaker 2: And so I mean that's not a new idea, right,
6:43
Speaker 2: if you think back to the just general drug or
6:47
Speaker 2: alcohol addictions, it's always going to be well, I would
6:51
Speaker 2: I think it's always related to some form of escape.
6:53
Speaker 2: Certainly the work of Johann Hari would talk about that
6:57
Speaker 2: where he's gone through and he says the addiction, Sorry,
6:59
Speaker 2: the opposite of action isn't sobriety, it's connection, right, And
7:03
Speaker 2: so yeah, all these things play together, I guess what
7:06
Speaker 2: I'm saying.
7:06
Speaker 1: Okay, So that leads me into what we're going to
7:08
Speaker 1: talk about after break. I want to talk specifically about
7:11
Speaker 1: tips that parents can use to help keep gaming healthy
7:15
Speaker 1: at home, but even more importantly, I want to talk
7:19
Speaker 1: about what we can do to help families where things
7:21
Speaker 1: have gotten out of hand, and that connection piece, I
7:24
Speaker 1: sense would be a central component of that. So that's
7:27
Speaker 1: coming up right after the break. Stay with us, Welcome
7:36
Speaker 1: back into the Happy Families podcast, talking with Andrew Kinch
7:38
Speaker 1: from Game Awhere. Andrew, let's get really practical for a moment.
7:41
Speaker 1: I just say'm a parent and I've got a ten
7:44
Speaker 1: year old or a sixteen year old. They are on
7:46
Speaker 1: the game, They're on the screen, they're on the controller
7:51
Speaker 1: just too much, and they're incessantly begging for it. They're
7:54
Speaker 1: always saying, can I have your phone? Can I have
7:56
Speaker 1: the iPad? Can I turn on the TV? Can I
7:58
Speaker 1: have the remote controller? Parents hiding television remotes and game
8:02
Speaker 1: consoles because this is just relentless and the kids's got
8:05
Speaker 1: so much energy for it, and we're tired and we're
8:07
Speaker 1: trying to organize dinner and all those things. What are
8:10
Speaker 1: the things that you talk to parents at a practical level,
8:12
Speaker 1: setting aside all the psychological work that needs to be
8:14
Speaker 1: done and that you work on so much, Just basic
8:17
Speaker 1: things that parents can do to help to just reduce
8:22
Speaker 1: the bugging and the hassling and the inability to turn
8:26
Speaker 1: the screen off once they're on.
8:28
Speaker 2: I wish it was simple, you know. So why it
8:32
Speaker 2: is just it's different for everybody, which is why it's
8:35
Speaker 2: so important. I think to consider the carrot model, right,
8:39
Speaker 2: It's like, what is their choice of game? What job
8:42
Speaker 2: is the game doing for them? Right? And so if
8:45
Speaker 2: you understand their motivators, then that helps you figure out
8:48
Speaker 2: what to do next. So some of the simpler tips though,
8:52
Speaker 2: that we can talk about. I love this idea of
8:55
Speaker 2: not using timers. A timer is like a countdown to
8:59
Speaker 2: something that that your your little gamer does not want obviously,
9:03
Speaker 2: the end of their session.
9:03
Speaker 1: And the anxiety goes up as the time it gets close,
9:06
Speaker 1: which means that the emotions get higher as the time
9:08
Speaker 1: it gets close to the zero, right, Like it's it's
9:10
Speaker 1: as if a disaster.
9:12
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's easy to swipe away as well, and
9:14
Speaker 2: if the parent wasn't around for the timer and then
9:17
Speaker 2: they're like, oh what happened, and it's just it can
9:19
Speaker 2: cause more conflict. Right. Something I've experimented on is stop
9:24
Speaker 2: watches instead. Now there's there's a couple of levels to this,
9:27
Speaker 2: because what we want to do is have our kids
9:30
Speaker 2: more self regulating, right, Well, what if we can reward that.
9:33
Speaker 2: So stopwatch is going to be I mean, you're probably
9:36
Speaker 2: not gonna have a physical stop watch, so you might
9:38
Speaker 2: need another screen and don't worry, it's just a screen
9:41
Speaker 2: relax but has a stop watch and the talk the
9:44
Speaker 2: clock is sticking upwards. And so the idea is that
9:47
Speaker 2: our our young gamer needs to check, needs to look
9:51
Speaker 2: needs to look over, and that means that it can't
9:53
Speaker 2: just get lost in the immersion. And how that was
9:57
Speaker 2: a time dilation. I think they call it where you
9:59
Speaker 2: just lose a sense of time and you're just there
10:01
Speaker 2: for hours. Well, if you're checking your stop watch as
10:04
Speaker 2: the clock takes upwards, there can be a limit that
10:07
Speaker 2: we set as parents, and it's like, well, if you
10:10
Speaker 2: get off before let's say, let's be easy, it's an hour.
10:14
Speaker 2: If you get off before the stop watch hits the hour,
10:17
Speaker 2: I'm going to reward the heck out of it, right,
10:20
Speaker 2: And so you're rewarding the self regulation. Right, if they
10:23
Speaker 2: get off at the stopwatch limit that you've set, good job,
10:27
Speaker 2: pat on the back, but no reward. Right, that's the
10:30
Speaker 2: idea is to get off earlier, and then if they
10:32
Speaker 2: get off later. Look, I'm not saying go and punish them.
10:35
Speaker 2: I'm just saying that needs to have a conversation. It's like,
10:38
Speaker 2: well i've got a problem. Maybe yeah, maybe maybe our
10:42
Speaker 2: reward was not significant enough, because what we really need
10:46
Speaker 2: is a self regulation. That's the ultimate goal.
10:48
Speaker 1: So two things on this. The first that I would
10:50
Speaker 1: say is I'm not big on punishments henry rewards. I
10:53
Speaker 1: find that they are the lowest form of education. But
10:55
Speaker 1: when you've got a child who is compulsively playing who
10:57
Speaker 1: is problematically involved in something. Sometimes you need to have
11:00
Speaker 1: something that will get them moving because intrinsically they're so
11:04
Speaker 1: drawn into what they're doing. You've got to have something
11:06
Speaker 1: that gets them away from it. And while I argue
11:09
Speaker 1: pretty strongly against punishments and rewards in the main, there
11:12
Speaker 1: are times where they have a place and this is
11:13
Speaker 1: one of those times where I look at it and say,
11:15
Speaker 1: it just makes sense. This one's a practical one. The
11:18
Speaker 1: second thing that really grabs me, though, is I often
11:21
Speaker 1: talk to parents about saying, what's the transition, Like when
11:25
Speaker 1: they get off the screen. If you want them to
11:27
Speaker 1: get off five minutes early and get excited about that,
11:30
Speaker 1: what are they getting off for? Like where are they
11:32
Speaker 1: going to Because all too often kids have to get
11:35
Speaker 1: off the screen and then it's like, well what am
11:36
Speaker 1: I going to do now? Nothing, I'm bored, there's nowhere
11:39
Speaker 1: to go, there's nothing to do. It's just that my
11:40
Speaker 1: time is up. And so having a conversation, we can say,
11:44
Speaker 1: you know, once this is done, we need to go
11:46
Speaker 1: and do blah. And it's something that they're looking forward
11:48
Speaker 1: to that makes the transition off and into the next
11:52
Speaker 1: activity so much easier. I know that that's a it's
11:57
Speaker 1: all order for some families, but it changes the game.
12:01
Speaker 2: Your thoughts definitely. We call this the buffer, and it's
12:04
Speaker 2: again everything's an experiment, right, So, I mean, we had
12:08
Speaker 2: a young adult who was quite aggressive playing like a
12:12
Speaker 2: martial arts fighting game called street Fighter, and so getting
12:16
Speaker 2: him to transition off the game was very difficult. And
12:19
Speaker 2: this young man was neurodiversion as well, and he had
12:23
Speaker 2: a few favorite TV shows and so we decided to
12:25
Speaker 2: try and leverage this by having the buffer be watching
12:29
Speaker 2: an episode of Brooklyn ninety nine. So if you're familiar,
12:33
Speaker 2: it's a comedy, very funny, twenty minute long show or whatever.
12:37
Speaker 2: And if you're all aggressive from competing, if that's what's happening,
12:41
Speaker 2: and then you go and do something and that actually
12:44
Speaker 2: makes you laugh, surely that changes your physiology. Surely it's
12:47
Speaker 2: much easier to move on to something more productive after
12:51
Speaker 2: you've had this this buffer activity, which is more to
12:54
Speaker 2: calm me down. But yeah, definitely having a buffer, So
12:58
Speaker 2: going from something that's quite stimulating, even relaxing games are
13:01
Speaker 2: probably stimulating, right, depends how nursive they are, and then
13:05
Speaker 2: to something that's calming and then something that's more productive
13:08
Speaker 2: that's how we think it is a good way. We
13:11
Speaker 2: think that's a good way to transition, I think, and
13:13
Speaker 2: I guess another tip that we have is that if
13:15
Speaker 2: you don't know what you're talking about, if you don't
13:18
Speaker 2: know what they're doing, Like our whole model is, it
13:20
Speaker 2: takes one to know one, right, and so everybody on
13:23
Speaker 2: the team, whether they're a psychologist or an ot or
13:26
Speaker 2: a speechee or just like a mentor, they're all gamers, right,
13:31
Speaker 2: and we ideally would want to match the same sort
13:34
Speaker 2: of genre or even game when we're like with the
13:37
Speaker 2: mentor and then with the young person. But when it
13:41
Speaker 2: takes one to know, and it really comes down to
13:43
Speaker 2: it from a parent's perspective, like spend some time in
13:46
Speaker 2: the game they're playing. You don't have to like it,
13:49
Speaker 2: you don't have to be good at it probably won't be.
13:51
Speaker 2: But get to understand the information that's on the screen,
13:55
Speaker 2: get to understand what the motivators are. By the end
13:58
Speaker 2: of a good session that we call I'll walk a
14:00
Speaker 2: mile on their shoes, you would want to be able
14:04
Speaker 2: to understand what their motivation is. If you you understand
14:08
Speaker 2: how many eliminations they have, how many people are left
14:11
Speaker 2: in the game, what circles are it's on, and like
14:13
Speaker 2: what the dynamics are. If you walk in and there's
14:16
Speaker 2: three people left in the game, that's when you should
14:19
Speaker 2: say good luck and moonwalk out of the room, right,
14:22
Speaker 2: and that will get you so much sort of appreciation
14:25
Speaker 2: from your child and so getting in on the ground level,
14:28
Speaker 2: understanding their motivation, understanding the dynamics of the game make
14:31
Speaker 2: a huge difference in the dynamics and that conversation.
14:35
Speaker 1: Now Edard, I would love to talk to you for
14:37
Speaker 1: approximately in another six hours. I feel like we've barely
14:40
Speaker 1: scratched the surface. Your work is very much about helping
14:42
Speaker 1: families with problemat gaming, and I have a dozen more
14:46
Speaker 1: questions that I could ask you, but because time's gotten
14:49
Speaker 1: the better of us, if families want more help and
14:52
Speaker 1: they think that you might be the person who could
14:54
Speaker 1: help them. This is the whole reason that I got
14:56
Speaker 1: you on the podcast, because I want people to hear
14:57
Speaker 1: from you, because you've helped families have been in touch
15:00
Speaker 1: with and said game away has made a difference. How
15:03
Speaker 1: could people contact you and how can you help them?
15:07
Speaker 2: So it's pretty easy. The website is www. Dot gameaware
15:11
Speaker 2: dot com dot AU and you'll find a few things
15:13
Speaker 2: on there that I think would be helpful right off
15:15
Speaker 2: the bat. So one thing, if you scroll down, you'll
15:19
Speaker 2: see that we've got free parent Q and AS that
15:21
Speaker 2: go for about a half an hour, sometimes a bit
15:23
Speaker 2: more so. Our next parent Q and A is actually
15:25
Speaker 2: going to be September twenty third at seven point thirty Melbourne,
15:29
Speaker 2: Sydney time, and you can just register for any of
15:32
Speaker 2: the dates when you click on the register for our
15:35
Speaker 2: parent Q and A link, which is just when you
15:37
Speaker 2: scroll down the page, there's a contact us page. You
15:40
Speaker 2: can book in a pre consultation a discovery call with
15:44
Speaker 2: our team at any time to see if it's a
15:46
Speaker 2: good fit to work with us. And it should be
15:49
Speaker 2: noted that it's our policy that we work with the parents.
15:52
Speaker 2: You guys are the ones in the trenches, right so
15:55
Speaker 2: we have to be able to help you feel more comfortable.
15:57
Speaker 2: And then there's also the activity finder which is on
16:01
Speaker 2: the main page as well.
16:02
Speaker 1: I'm just looking at the activity finder on the website
16:04
Speaker 1: as you're speaking, and there are so many options, so
16:07
Speaker 1: many things. If you just know how to tap into
16:09
Speaker 1: India son or daughters as you said, their profile. The
16:13
Speaker 1: thing that's got them in, so we'll link to the activity,
16:15
Speaker 1: fighter will link to the website, We'll link to everything,
16:19
Speaker 1: the registration's link for the upcoming Q and A, we'll
16:22
Speaker 1: link to all of that in the show notes. Andrew,
16:25
Speaker 1: it's been a real delight to be able to talk
16:26
Speaker 1: with you today. I have no doubt that you're giving
16:28
Speaker 1: hope in this conversation to a whole lot of parents
16:31
Speaker 1: who currently feel like they're in a really dark hole
16:34
Speaker 1: and would like a way out of it. So thanks
16:36
Speaker 1: so much for chatting today.
16:37
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me Andrew.
16:39
Speaker 1: Kinch Game aware all the links in the show notes,
16:42
Speaker 1: I have no doubt that this will be useful for
16:44
Speaker 1: a whole lot of parents. The Happy Family Podcast is
16:46
Speaker 1: produced by Justin Rulong from Bridge Media. Mim Hammonds provides
16:49
Speaker 1: our additional support tomorrow on the pod, having a conversation
16:53
Speaker 1: about the latest science. Lot's Father's Day this coming weekend,
16:57
Speaker 1: so we're going to talk about how men parenting differently
17:01
Speaker 1: according to the latest science, and also what parenting does
17:05
Speaker 1: to dad's brains. Join us tomorrow for more on that.
17:09
Speaker 1: Pema's podcast