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Rapid Shutdown, Large Modules, and Storage: Trends Shaping C&I Solar with Steve Schwerd | EP225 · Clean Power Hour

• 0:50
  Steve Schwerd: We want to be that value added partner. And we're kind of unique in that in that we're, we're not just trying to get every project under the sun, our strength is that we have 100% Focus on the solar industry. And so we want to stay on top of those trends.
• 1:05
  Steve Schwerd: And like I said, we're focused on the, on the CNI market and the small scale utility market.
• 1:14
  Steve Schwerd: So those trends are really important to us. And, you know, I'd like to come out with these earth shattering great technology ideas, but rather, it's just kind of being in touch with the pros and cons of of what's happening.
• 1:29
  intro: Are you speeding the energy transition? Here at the Clean Power Hour, our hosts, Tim Montague and John Weaver bring you the best in solar batteries and clean technologies every week? I want to go deeper into decarbonisation. We do too.
• 1:44
  intro: We're here to help you understand and command the commercial, residential and utility, solar, wind and storage industries. So let's get to it.
• 1:50
  intro: Together, we can speed the energy transition.
• 1:57
  Tim Montague: Today on the Clean Power Hour, CNI, solar and storage engineering. My guest today is Steve Schwerd, he is the principal and owner of Schwerd Consulting. Welcome to the show, Steve.
• 2:09
  Steve Schwerd: Thank you, Tim.
• 2:09
  Steve Schwerd: Good to see you. Again. I'm a regular listener, I appreciate what you do for the industry.
• 2:16
  Tim Montague: That is so nice of you. And I think that's one of the things that made you and I click right off the bat when we met in Dallas at the Chint Power Systems Innovation Day. If you don't know about the CPS event, it's an annual innovation gathering of EPCs, engineers, consultants and solar professionals. And it's a lovely event, it's a great way to meet other solar professionals, reach out to your cient representative and ask questions about that event. You want to get invited to that. That's how you and I know each other, I have to say it was I've just gone to that event two years in a row now.
• 2:57
  Tim Montague: And it was a quantum leap, though, for me, just the value that I got out of it. I knew how to work the room a little better this time. But Steve, tell our listeners a little bit about yourself. How did you get into the solar industry? What's your background? And what do you do edge word consulting.
• 3:13
  Steve Schwerd: I'm an electrical engineer by background right here in good old New Jersey, where we're located from Rutgers University. And then my career was spent in the let's call it the building industry, the architectural industry, starting as doing electrical designs for commercial industrial, institutional buildings for MEP engineering firms, mechanical, electrical, plumbing, and through the course of my career, I grew from designing and lead engineering to project management and then getting involved in team management and firm management both for small engineering firms understanding that dynamic growing teams from from initial startup to running engineering nationally for a large architectural and engineering firm, where I had multiple disciplines, the mechanical, electrical, plumbing, fire protection, structural, civil and environment, environmental under my wing. And then I was really involved in my career in some energy intensive markets, where it was critical to design and engineer systems that that reduced energy consumption, and out from their sustainable design and lead projects I was got involved in that very early in lead adoption. And I really had a passion for sustainable design. And that's what opened up the introduction to the solar industry. For early in the sustainable design practice, we would look at at adding solar and solar photovoltaics projects, but they I wasn't impressed with them. And they often didn't pencil out, we're talking the late 90s, early two, and in doing sustainable design, just like in solar, one of the things we always talk about was like the triple bottom line, and it has to work for everything so as to be you could almost call it the three P's right people planet profits, so it's got to be good for societal benefits.
• 5:36
  Steve Schwerd: It has to be good for the environment, good for the planet, but also to make it work. It has to be profitable, it has to have a bottom line positive economic impact. And so this Polar in most cases was, was not doing that. So either it didn't get brought into our lead projects, or it became, we're gonna we're gonna pay for it.
• 6:01
  Steve Schwerd: And we're going to accept really low returns. But we want a lot of energy reduction, a lot of points to get a high rating of our LEED projects. But as time went on, and we got into the later 2008 2009, those same conversations where I had not a great feeling about solar, I started to get involved with people in the industry that were wiser, more technical savvy, things started making sense. And depending on the area, you're at, all of a sudden, it was starting to become a viable economic alternative. And from that exposure to some good solar industry, people and companies, it took me out of just adding solar into designing building projects, but into actually starting to work for solar companies to design and engineer their solar plants. And let
• 7:12
  Tim Montague: me interrupt you there. There's, we want to I think we want to shine a light on if you would, Steve, what is the state of the CNI solar industry as you see it, but you're working in, I think 14 states and we're now okay, and isn't is such an interesting niche because it is a tough nut to crack. A lot of real estate is third party owned, meaning it's not owner occupied. Upwards of 90% of commercial real estate is third party owned real estate. Now there are innovative platforms coming to market to unlock that. But traditionally CNI, solar installers and developers are looking for owner occupied facilities to solarize, or in now in the 2020s, solar and storage eyes. But from your perspective, you've seen the industry matured tremendously, the modern solar industry in the US started in 2010. Even though you will run into professionals like yourself, who were working with PV as early as 2000, or the early 2000s, or the late 90s.
• 8:24
  Tim Montague: Check out my interview with Ryan Mayfield, and my call, for example of Anza. But for some of those very early adopters, but what how would you capture the state of the CNI, solar and storage industry in the US today,
• 8:41
  Steve Schwerd: I would say it's certainly come up come a long way, in many perspectives, including the quality of the installation, the quality of all industry partners in it, from the owners of the solar to the engineers, to the installers, the contractors, but it definitely is a robust market.
• 9:05
  Steve Schwerd: Still, there's typical with solar, it can be very state dependent on their policies, and on the utilities. But as you talk about the ownership of these buildings, and so there might be third party ownership, where the tenants aren't controlling it unless you have to understand there are types of facilities where the tenants have roof rights, right, because they do a lot for instance, a supermarket but typically always have roof rights. But I think the community solar as community solar grows, that has been a big avenue and maybe dealing with additional challenges too, because that opens up the buildings right, the third party owners, it also can deal with many states that have net metering limitations, where you cannot produce more energy from solar than you use annually warehouses across the country, their energy consumption may be fairly low. So you can have a very large rooftop and only take up a small portion of it that has allowed for net metering the max you can put there, but now with community solar, you can now maximize that rooftop and and supply it because you're it's not part of a net metering installation. We've seen a lot of gross a lot of growth in many different markets as a result of that. But we've also seen as you and everyone has, is, I think what There's policies that change it, that play into it, great market, great s rec market, what have you, and that grows it. But there's also just a greater confidence in the solar solar photovoltaic market, whether it's from an end user wanting to purchase it to PPAs, what have you, there's just a lot more confidence in the industry as it grows. And as it matures to enter into it that that I think, plays a real factor beyond just the numbers.
• 12:15
  Steve Schwerd: Yeah,
• 12:19
  Tim Montague: I'd like to geek out a little bit on some of the trends that we see in the CNI, solar and storage market. As you mentioned, the technology, the quality of projects is improving, consumer confidence is improving. We're still down here on the S curve, where we're starting to see some significant growth, we're going to 10x the solar industry in the US in the next 20 years. And so it's a great 20 to 30 year opportunity for young professionals. And, and even mid career, or late career professionals have plenty of runway in the solar industry, and a lot of people are coming from other industries. Now.
• 12:59
  Tim Montague: Solar is growing way faster than the fossil fuel industry.
• 13:03
  Tim Montague: Luckily, and that is how we gauge the energy transition. But just Yeah, go ahead, stop
• 13:11
  Steve Schwerd: you there. But yeah, following up on that thought, and I did listen to your recent podcast, with the team, specifically dealing with the hiring and staffing for the solar industry. And it's really spot on, it's a challenge to, let's say, where we stand from the find experienced senior engineers. So it's a great market. And I've been encouraging young engineers, and young people of all walks of life. This is a market that you can enter and grow rapidly. And because of the needs of companies, and it doesn't matter if it's a developer, a PC, a vendor, an engineering firm, there are so many opportunities, and you could learn at an accelerated pace. And in five years, five years, you're going to be so desired, because as opposed to other industries, you're dealing with veterans throughout, and the competition is much greater. So it's a great market for young people even coming straight out of college to get into.
• 14:22
  Tim Montague: Absolutely. And we now see a cadre of professionals who have done nothing but solar in their career. And that's really cool. But Steve, let's talk about some of the some of the nuances in CNI, solar that are on the minds of our EPC and developer customers. And listeners, you and I mentioned ul 3741, which is related to rapid shutdown. And this is about power electronics, and safety. And then technology trends like large format solar modules. So paint a picture, if you would, as an engineer, you're getting leaned on pretty heavily by your customers, these are solar developers and solar installers to really be an expert on the NEC write the National Electric Code. What are some of the important things that installers are wrestling with and needing to understand around the NEC?
• 15:30
  Steve Schwerd: Yeah, and it's the NEC and even beyond just changes to equipment and inverters and what have you, but you're right. And that's what, that's what our goal is, we want to be that value added partner.
• 15:41
  Steve Schwerd: And we're unique in that and we're not just trying to get every project under the sun, our strength is that we have 100% Focus on the solar industry. And so we want to stay on top of those trends. And like I said, we're focused on on the CNI market and the small scale utility market. So those trends are really important to us. And I'd like to come out with these earth shattering great technology ideas, but rather, it's just being in touch with the pros and cons of what's happening. And we I think it's important to for the line of work we're in is not to say you have to do it this way. You have to do it that way. There's pros and cons and we have clients for different reasons or even contractors, subcontractors, electricians, we know that have different preferences based on their capabilities based on their buying power, etc. But we'll start with With the rapid shutdown issue, because it's definitely a challenge, rapid shutdown, module level rapid shutdown was enacted in the code evolving to where it became module level with the intent to create the greatest amount of safety for particularly firefighters on the roof. But what has happened in this endeavor to achieve it, there's been a lot of failure of particular rapid shutdown devices. And we can go on that that could be a whole different podcast issues. Now. The learning curves, there's, it's gotten a lot better with the understanding of the best design, engineering practices, installation practices, and then even what the vendors need to do to safeguard against it. But what ul 37 Ford has done is it's now giving you a choice to eliminate the the module level rapid shutdown, by having racking certified in combination with the inverters. And that is a great way to reduce risk. And when I talk about risk, I'm talking about thermal events that could come from rapid shutdown devices, which has, unfortunately become a little bit of a bane of existence of those and rooftop solar, right now for CNI. And we're encouraging all our clients to really go and check on existing operating installations, in addition to the greater knowledge of moving forward and installations. So that risk reduction is huge. But it's not as easy as it sounds. And that's why in solar, it's often not a one approach fit fits all. But if you have a very large rooftop, and now you're going from typically the approach, let's say we recently did a five megawatt rooftop in New York State, and it was desired to go with the ul 3741 certification UL certification. But what that meant is no longer do we have centralized string inverters.
• 19:06
  Steve Schwerd: But now it is back to distributed and with the inverters by the racking. And so what that does now is that means you're running a lot more AC conductors, versus DC conductors, and DC and 1000 volts versus AC, at 480 volts, so you have a lot more voltage drop. And on the AC side, you really want to keep your AC voltage drop down, because AC is a direct loss to your production and an essentially your revenue.
• 19:43
  Steve Schwerd: Whereas DC had a lot more flexibility in its voltage drop losses. So not only was there less voltage drop at a higher voltage, but you could actually have a, let's say, and I won't go into all the details here.
• 19:57
  Steve Schwerd: But let's say you had a two and a half percent voltage drop, right? Comparatively, if you have a two and a half percent AC voltage drop, that's a lot for a PV system, because that's a direct loss. But if your DC voltage drop is two and a half percent, you might actually realize only half a percentage point 7% loss because of the fact that at your peak performances, your DC is clipping. So anyway, that's my last
• 20:31
  Tim Montague: step back for a sec. I love this. I love this level of detail. Rapid shutdown is a double edge. There's for one thing, there's as you referenced, there's multiple ways to solve the problem per se, right. And we've had the introduction of a whole variety of power electronics, these are module level, or oftentimes now a couple of modules per device, module level power electronics MLP ease, and those are great because they're right there on the solar panel embedded in the solar field. But that also means many more connectors, many more electronics, many more points of failure. So that's one approach doesn't work. Yeah, it works. Is there a trade off? Absolutely.
• 21:23
  Tim Montague: And then you have just the use of string inverters. And then the combination of string inverters and racking and putting the string inverters in very close proximity to the array and you can solve rapid shutdown that way. That's something you do have two other options. Okay, so yeah, just paint a picture for us? What are the main ways of solving rapid shutter
• 21:45
  Steve Schwerd: again, so the two you mentioned are correct the rack the racking, the MO rapid shutdown devices from a couple of vendors. But then there's also the upright bed that work differently than just the rapid shutdown devices, I put them in a different category. And then there is another one on the market that that runs does not use powerline communication. And that as runs 24 volt DC wiring with just signal to turn on and off tied into the inverters through a power source a lot less applied that one is and that one's had issues as well.
• 22:29
  Steve Schwerd: But I just wanted to point it out that there are multiple ways to attack it. Yep.
• 22:34
  Tim Montague: But do you see do you see a pattern or a trend that more asset owners are preferring over? One? What is the preferred trend Much to
• 22:45
  Steve Schwerd: my? My initial?
• 22:45
  Steve Schwerd: Yeah, I would say there's a couple of approaches. But I think the ul 3741 is being much more intensely looked at and applied, again, even at greater costs, and sometimes significantly greater costs. If you have a very large system, large rooftop system or a disjointed system. That's not even and allows you to just perfectly size your array blocks to your inverter blocks. But because of the risk reduction, and I often say people live out of their negative experiences, anybody who's been involved in a fire on a rooftop, that are going to tend to move to the ultimate safer or even perceived safer intent. But then there's also preceding a much greater move to the to the vendor with with the optima and that F people can have complained about certain failures, but they they fail by device failure, causing a couple of modules to not produce versus having thermal events.
• 24:00
  Tim Montague: Yeah, the Clean Power Hour is brought to you by CPS America. The maker of North America's number one three phase string inverter with over six gigawatts shipped in the US. The CPS America product lineup includes three phase string inverters ranging from 25 to 275 kW, their flagship inverter, the CPS 250 to 75 is designed to work with solar plants ranging from two megawatts to two gigawatts, the 250 to 75 pairs well, with CPS America's exceptional data communication controls and energy storage solutions, go to chintpowersystems.com To find out more. So what other trends would our installer and developer listeners be dealing with? We talked about solar modules getting bigger, greater energy density, these se solar modules are approaching the size of a sheet of plywood for the CNI market. CNI and utility, a truly, they're literally approaching four feet by eight feet into in physical dimension.
• 25:02
  Tim Montague: They're still a little smaller than that. And they are getting, there's all kinds of concerns with that there's the increase in hail events across the US, there is a trend. And when you make these modules bigger, they're heavier, they're harder to handle. So there's the concerns for worker safety. And but what do you see in other technologies that is noteworthy?
• 25:29
  Tim Montague: I'll
• 25:31
  Steve Schwerd: stick with that topic if we can write those larger modules, right, which are approaching 600 Watts and in some cases, 625 watts. We're seeing the widespread acceptance of that on the use of carports canopy structures. Typically, most all the ones we're doing are using those larger modules, and ground mounts, even in the CNI and small utility scale.
• 26:01
  Steve Schwerd: We're seeing the movement of those larger modules, right, easier to work with, at grade and everything that goes with it. on rooftops. We're definitely seeing a split approach. A number of contractors installers, they prefer not to work with them, because like you said, bringing them up to the roof working with them on the roof. It presents a greater challenge and even in cases more man hours adding cost to it. But the one thing I tried to do is but others love it, right? They love the power density that comes with it.
• 26:41
  Steve Schwerd: Sometimes the pricing The total cost per watt has been an improvement. But I tried to point out things too, as long as you're considering other factors as well, the large as they keep getting larger, right, that density in that extension when you're in a snow region, now you have to start thinking more about the point loading, right, because if you're a rat, now that you're using still has just the legs at the end of the module, now you're loading much heavier with in taking into account the Snowmass and snow code load allowance at greater intervals. And so often, even now, when they've been at the smaller range and six feet wide, a lot of times you may see steel joists at six foot centers. So you really don't have an issue.
• 27:38
  Steve Schwerd: But now you go to eight feet, you really have to be concerned about how it lays out and overlapping, that it's another factor to consider in your evaluation of the roof framing, and even some of the vendors ballasting. Right. In those larger modules, there may be an additional tray or more ballasting into it. And again, just increasing potential for for point loading, depending on how that particular rack system holds the blocks. So that's why we tried to just point out the factors pros and cons and let people make an informed decision.
• 28:19
  Tim Montague: Yeah, there's no there's no easy answer, there's a there's market pressure to increase the size of the panels, right that energy density is, is a good thing in some scenarios, but there are clearly trade offs. And in general, there's a signal emerging about microcracking in solar modules.
• 28:40
  Tim Montague: And so as that foot as the footprint of the module gets better, bigger, the risk of microcracking does go up. And I just, I want the manufacturers to to work closely with one another and make sure that the racking that's available, and cost effective, is going to work well with those modules.
• 29:02
  Tim Montague: Sometimes, the module makers get ahead of themselves. And they just need to remember that it has to work together as a system.
• 29:10
  Steve Schwerd: And with all aspects in emerging technology, a growing industry, so that has vendors working in that their product that might be great, no matter what it is, has to be compatible with other items in the market, just like we've seen with my issue with the whole rapid shutdown, advancement in the code, while trying to do a good thing was ahead of the technology of the market. And so there, there was very little choices of what to do. And that rapid deployment of something maybe before it was ready, turns out to be a negative. And sometimes that's why we see the quality of work today versus when it was the Wild West, like you said in 2000. And now when we work on modifications, upgrades, additions to existing systems, you see some of that.
• 30:05
  Steve Schwerd: And then you see, see the difference between today's market and that market from years ago, when we work on those existing systems. So many vendors, the materials on site are no longer available, right from the inverter manufacturers that are gone to the racking manufacturers that are gone. And there's a lot that comes into play making it a real challenge on dealing with it to the point where there's been times we've had to advise clients that it's probably in your best interest to to run some of this until it dies, even at lower efficiency, and then deal with it or just choose not to modify a system because it's such a high cost that when you wait till your S racks are done or something like that and spend for a full system replacement, it'll be a greater economical mind. But
• 31:06
  Tim Montague: so in our last couple of minutes together, Steve, let's talk about solar and storage or storage alone, right. There are some markets now in the US where there are incentives like New York like Illinois, frankly, that incentivize storage, California being the top storage market.
• 31:25
  Tim Montague: And then there's markets like Hawaii where storage has been part of the scene for quite long. More on the residential side, they have these very strict non injection rules meaning when you install solar, you can't inject solar electrons onto the grid because there's such high penalty ration and that causes problems for the grid operator. But what are some of the challenges and opportunities of battery storage in the CNI, solar and storage market?
• 31:54
  Steve Schwerd: It's a great question. And one of the things I used to say, even going back a few years when people would ask the same Oh, have you done a lot of battery energy storage systems. And I'd say, we're pretty much like everybody else.
• 32:10
  Steve Schwerd: We're talking about it all the time. But we're not really doing them. That's changed today. And we've just recently completed multiple designs on five, five megawatt 20 megawatt hour storage systems, and in different states, but like you said, New York's a big market for it. I think one thing that I was surprised it was always because early on, we'd been dealing primarily with the storage systems coupled with the PV. And that's, that was just my vision of really how it was going to evolve. And now we're, I'm while we certainly are doing that, we're doing a number of standalone direct to the grid, battery systems. But as far as challenges go with it, it's really the tying it understanding utilities, right utilities, fire, local fire rules, and what they, you know, may restrictions may have, but also just the material. And that's another thing that's coming a long way, it used to be frustrating for us, as engineers needing to design some of these.
• 33:25
  Steve Schwerd: And it would be you, you'd be given a nice, pretty picture of the storage system. But understanding the details that went into it, it would require just somebody one expert involved in it. But now, the growth of the industry has really improved the ability to gather the material, design it, engineer it and work with the parties really, on the controller side of it, which is key. I always say I hate to downgrade what we do. But sometimes the design and engineering of the battery energy storage system, is really the easy part compared to making sure that the communication interfaces, the controllers are proper ly programmed and operating, and are going to work in conjunction with the requirements of the utility and the needs of the finance.
• 34:22
  Tim Montague: I'm curious there.
• 34:22
  Tim Montague: As far as I can tell, there's kind of two approaches, fully integrated solutions, right, where the storage manufacturer provides a full wrap solution, which includes all of the software, the container, the everything. And then there's the integrated approach where you are buying different products and integrating them into a solution so to speak. Is there a trend there? That's noteworthy?
• 35:00
  Tim Montague: Yeah,
• 35:00
  Steve Schwerd: we're seeing the move to the fully integrated, whereas early on, you had to integrate the different components. So we were definitely seeing the fully integrated movement, and especially with some of the larger players getting into it and offering that as a solution.
• 35:19
  Steve Schwerd: And in part doing to that, just greater bankability, right, greater confidence in the support you'll
• 35:26
  Tim Montague: get of all the storage projects that you see today, what percentage if you just had to guess roughly, our storage alone versus solar plus storage? I can only speak
• 35:40
  Steve Schwerd: for what we're involved in and what we're seeing on our clients side, but I would still say it's a low percentage perhaps. And this is more than it's been, but maybe 5%.
• 35:56
  Tim Montague: Yeah, and other places other than California and New York, where this is happening, storage alone at the CNI scale. Of course, the utility scale is a different matter. It's utility storage, standalone storage is happening in a much broader playing field, but in the CNI market, it is still today mostly solar plus storage. And that's great right?
• 36:17
  Tim Montague: Storage adds a whole stack of value to the solar but right for for as solar storage alone. I no more New York has this five megawatt market. I seem California has a similar market, but where else are you seeing storage alone? Puerto Rico, maybe?
• 36:36
  Steve Schwerd: That's a good question, Tim. Now that I think about it, it's probably limited the to New York, we just did a large one. But coupled with the PVX, in Massachusetts, and a few other regions, so I think the number of them we've done or as standalone or just New York, so I don't know that I can speak confidently enough to all the other markets there. And even though we're, we're doing solar and so many other states across the country now, we'll say in thinking about it, right on the CNI side, while I say we're doing state battery systems, where we're doing them, we're also doing PV, it's just that they're separate interconnections and often separately tied directly to the utility grid, as opposed to the PV tying in with the facility's electrical service.
• 37:35
  Tim Montague: Yep. Cool.
• 37:35
  Tim Montague: Unfortunately, we're out of time. Steve, I want to thank you for coming on the show. Please check out all of our content and cleanpowerhour.com Give us a rating and a review on Apple or Spotify. Reach out to me on LinkedIn, check out our YouTube channel, all of our content is on YouTube as well. And with that, I will say I'm Tim Montague, let's go solar and storage. How can our listeners find you, Steve?
• 38:01
  Steve Schwerd: I am on LinkedIn, even though I'm not a active social media guy. And email is my first initial last name, S S C H W E R D. @ Schwerdconsulting.com. Sorry, you gotta spell out the whole thing. But feel free to reach out. And, Tim, I thank you for having me. discussions with you are always enjoyable and keep doing what you do.
• 38:25
  Tim Montague: All right, thank you very much, Steve. Let's go solar and storage. I'm Tim Montague. Take care. Hey, listeners. This is Tim, I want to give a shout out to all of you. I do this for you twice a week. Thank you for being here.
• 38:43
  Tim Montague: Thank you for giving us your time. I really appreciate you and what you're all about. You are part and parcel of the energy transition, whether you're an energy professional today, or an aspiring energy professional. So thank you, I want to let you know that the Clean Power Hour has launched a listener survey. And it would mean so much to me. If you would go to cleanpowerhour.com. Click on the About Us link right there on the main navigation that takes you to the about page. And you'll see a big graphic listener survey, just click on that graphic, and it takes just a couple of minutes. If you fill out the survey, I will send you a lovely baseball cap with our logo on it. The other thing I want our listeners to know is that this podcast is made possible by corporate sponsors.
• 39:43
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• 39:56
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• 40:01
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• 40:06
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• 40:42
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