Latest / Balance of Power / Anthropic Says AI Model Claude Being Misused for Weapons Research

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Anthropic Says AI Model Claude Being Misused for Weapons Research · Balance of Power

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios.
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Speaker 3: Radio.
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Speaker 4: News.
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Speaker 5: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch
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Speaker 5: us live on YouTube.
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Speaker 6: A big story, Christina, throughout the week here has been
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Speaker 6: anxiety over artificial intelligence, as a number of companies in
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Speaker 6: recent weeks have allowed in posts and reports, that there
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Speaker 6: have been moments when their technology was not operating the
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Speaker 6: way that it was supposed to, and that sparked a
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Speaker 6: lot of kind of fears about, I should say, apocalyptic
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Speaker 6: fears about what this technology was.
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Speaker 3: Could do.
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Speaker 6: We heard from the CEO of Bridgewater on the Odd
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Speaker 6: Lots podcast, Greg Jensen. He talked about sort of what
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Speaker 6: it might take here, excuse me, the CIO of Bridgewater,
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Speaker 6: Greg Jensen, talking a bit about sort of what it
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Speaker 6: will take for Americans and for policymakers to sort of
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Speaker 6: wake up to the threats of this technology.
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Speaker 7: Unfortunately, this is like what it was like in February 2020.
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Speaker 8: Until the AI starts killing people, unfortunately, history would suggest.
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Speaker 7: We're not going to do anything. But we are going
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Speaker 7: to face that.
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Speaker 8: That's going to happen, and it'd be much better if
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Speaker 8: we started dealing with it before then. And you can
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Speaker 8: do it, right? It's also not hopeless.
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Speaker 9: All right. To guide us through this hopelessness, we've got
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Speaker 9: Mike Shepard, Bloomberg Senior Editor for Technology and Strategic Industries.
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Speaker 1: Mike, what is the deal here? Because we've got some
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Speaker 1: mixed messaging.
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Speaker 9: You have some big warning signs going up from employees,
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Speaker 9: former employees, experts, but then you have a top Pentagon
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Speaker 9: official kind of pushing back against these rising fears and saying,
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Speaker 9: you know, we can handle this.
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Speaker 1: We have guardrails. We know what we're doing. Where is
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Speaker 1: the truth and is it somewhere in the middle?
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Speaker 2: I think we're still trying to find that truth. And
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Speaker 2: everybody is trying to make sense, Christina, of where the
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Speaker 2: conversation on AI and AI risk is. is ultimately going
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Speaker 2: to take us. We heard from Greg Jensen earlier saying
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Speaker 2: that there really might have to be even catastrophic loss
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Speaker 2: of life to impel Congress or other policymakers to take
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Speaker 2: steps to really address these risks fully. And it's a
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Speaker 2: dire sounding warning. And yet we also hear on the
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Speaker 2: other side of the debate, the administration here in Washington
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Speaker 2: really dismissing many of those concerns.
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Speaker 10: A senior Pentagon.
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Speaker 2: Official just yesterday, Emil Michael, who has led negotiations with
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Speaker 2: Anthropic over safeguards the company wanted on military use of
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Speaker 2: its tools and really fought against those extra terms that
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Speaker 2: Anthropic had sought. He said yesterday, look, a lot of
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Speaker 2: this doomsaying is just talk. He was dismissive of it.
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Speaker 2: And he said that the free market and that industry-wide
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Speaker 2: collaboration would work to mitigate a lot of the perils
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Speaker 2: that people have been talking about.
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Speaker 6: Mike, I know we want to ask you about Jacob
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Speaker 6: Coxon's Twitter thread, which really gained a lot of steam
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Speaker 6: over the course this week. He's a former employee of
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Speaker 6: OpenAI and Anthropic. But let me just ask you a
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Speaker 6: bit more about the report that we've been talking about
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Speaker 6: here that Anthropic released. And just to quote a little
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Speaker 6: bit from it, I think the headline is, over the
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Speaker 6: past eight months, our threat intelligence team identified and disrupted
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Speaker 6: operations in which threat actors tried to use Claude for
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Speaker 6: malicious activity. Put that into some context here, because as
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Speaker 6: I mentioned at the top of the show, Mike, it
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Speaker 6: does seem like there has been a steady drip here
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Speaker 6: of admissions, for lack of a better word from these companies,
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Speaker 6: that the horse is more out of the barn than
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Speaker 6: I think they and a lot of us thought.
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Speaker 2: And that is a good way to put it, really,
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Speaker 2: because we have seen reports from companies, not only Anthropic,
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Speaker 2: but also OpenAI, disclosing rather transparently, look, some of this
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Speaker 2: technology has escaped beyond our control. And we can think
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Speaker 2: of the recent hack on Hugging Face by some models
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Speaker 2: being developed by OpenAI that were in a secure testing
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Speaker 2: environment that it had their guardrails removed, but the models
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Speaker 2: acted on their own communicating with other AI agents being
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Speaker 2: developed by OpenAI, and they escaped that secure testing environment
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Speaker 2: and went on to hack Hugging Face. And in this case,
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Speaker 2: there was no human in the loop, not only directing them,
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Speaker 2: but really even present to stop them in the act.
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Speaker 2: And that is the, you know, ultimate concern here, that
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Speaker 2: there could eventually be a super intelligence, and this is
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Speaker 2: a warning from Silicon Valley, and really the one that
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Speaker 2: Jacob Cox and raised in his departure tweet from Anthropic
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Speaker 2: that this kind of advanced intelligence and AI beyond human
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Speaker 2: control carries this enormous risk. And more specifically to Anthropic's report, David,
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Speaker 2: what they were highlighting are the very specific kinds of
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Speaker 2: risks that we could see. And that is this technology
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Speaker 2: could be used to enhance the use of missiles even
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Speaker 2: by foreign adversaries.
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Speaker 10: It could be used to craft bioweapons.
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Speaker 2: It could be used to wage cyber attacks or launch
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Speaker 2: disinformation campaigns. And they went through, chapter and verse, some
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Speaker 2: of the examples that they had seen already out in
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Speaker 2: the real world about misuse of anthropics technology.
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Speaker 9: It seems to me what's really driving this kind of
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Speaker 9: without top-down pessimism safeguards is this battle with China, right?
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Speaker 9: Once China became really competitive in this field, the argument
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Speaker 9: from a lot of AI supporters is, look, if we
5:36
Speaker 9: don't do this, if we slow ourselves down and put
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Speaker 9: guardrails about it and sit and think about how we
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Speaker 9: should best utilize this technology, China is going to go
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Speaker 9: full speed ahead and then we're going to be behind.
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Speaker 9: How is the industry, how are observers, how are people
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Speaker 9: like you looking at that balance and where we're going
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Speaker 9: to come out?
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Speaker 2: Well, that is certainly one of the arguments that the
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Speaker 2: top industry developers, including OpenAI and Anthropic, have made when
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Speaker 2: confronted with the challenge. Well, look, this technology is so powerful.
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Speaker 2: Should we slow the roll? Part of the answer back
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Speaker 2: has been, look, we need to get there first because
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Speaker 2: we are the only ones who can handle it responsibly
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Speaker 2: and safely. And if we let, heaven forbid, an adversary
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Speaker 2: like a company in China develop it ahead of us,
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Speaker 2: we don't know what kind of guardrails could be put
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Speaker 2: in place, if any at all, by a company or
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Speaker 2: an entity backed by an adversary like China. And that's
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Speaker 2: an argument that we've heard Anthropic CEO Dario Amadei make
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Speaker 2: over and over again, and he has even barred his
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Speaker 2: company's products from being used in China. And the China
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Speaker 2: question is also one that President Donald Trump himself has
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Speaker 2: raised when asked about whether there should be more guardrails
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Speaker 2: in place and whether there is an existential risk latent
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Speaker 2: somewhere in AI development. That question was put to him
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Speaker 2: last night by our colleague Jeff Mason in Dallas as
6:59
Speaker 2: the president was preparing to return to Washington. And the
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Speaker 2: president said, no, I am not concerned about AI risk
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Speaker 2: in an existential way. But he said, I am concerned, however,
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Speaker 2: about China somehow gaining on us. And he really stressed
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Speaker 2: the importance of maintaining that lead over China. And the context,
7:17
Speaker 2: of course, is that, you know, within weeks, his Chinese counterpart,
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Speaker 2: Xi Jinping, will be here in Washington for a summit.
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Speaker 10: And AI will be at the top of the agenda there.
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Speaker 9: Oh, I'm certainly going to be on that meeting. Mike Shepard,
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Speaker 9: our senior editor for technology and strategic engineering.
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Speaker 10: Industries.
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Speaker 9: I don't seem to want to say the rest of
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Speaker 9: your title today. Mike, I'm so sorry. Always nice to
7:37
Speaker 9: see you.
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Speaker 11: Industries.
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Speaker 1: I can do it. I promise this is my job.
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Speaker 1: Everything's going great.
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Speaker 6: And Mike has such a good vantage on the way
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Speaker 6: that this is kind of reverberating around Washington, D.C., and
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Speaker 6: it does feel like, as we've all kind of woken
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Speaker 6: up to this, lawmakers have as well. So something well
7:49
Speaker 6: worth following here in the weeks and months ahead. I
7:51
Speaker 6: want to bring now Rick Davis, partner at Stonecourt Capital,
7:54
Speaker 6: Bloomberg Politics contributor, and Jeannie Sheehan-Zainer joining us as well,
7:57
Speaker 6: Democracy Visiting Fellow at the Harvard Kennedy School's Ash Center.
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Speaker 6: She also a Bloomberg Politics contributor.
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Speaker 8: Contributor.
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Speaker 6: Rick, let me go to you first on this and
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Speaker 6: pick up on what I was just saying there a
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Speaker 6: moment ago. It does seem we're at a moment now where, yes,
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Speaker 6: investors are feeling a bit anxious about the state of
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Speaker 6: this technology today and where it might be headed. I'm
8:14
Speaker 6: curious if you see it kind of changing the way
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Speaker 6: that lawmakers and policymakers are talking about this technology. We
8:20
Speaker 6: heard Mike Shepard referencing Emile Michael, the Pentagon official there
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Speaker 6: just a moment ago. He cautioning us to kind of
8:27
Speaker 6: keep a level head here and not become kind of
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Speaker 6: doomers when we look at AI.
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Speaker 3: Yeah.
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Speaker 12: Yeah, I think it's really interesting, Shepard's comments about this
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Speaker 12: being focused on the technology, because in Washington, it is
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Speaker 12: a technology discussion. You have a lot of members really
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Speaker 12: trying to grapple with what the unique economic, societal, and
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Speaker 12: security threats are to this incredible technology. But when you
8:53
Speaker 12: get outside the Beltway, and you don't have to get
8:56
Speaker 12: very far outside the.
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Speaker 10: Beltway, because Virginia is one of the largest, if not.
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Speaker 12: The largest, data center in locations in the country, and
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Speaker 12: it's all about data centers. You don't see in a
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Speaker 12: political discussion the potential impacts of AI on our society
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Speaker 12: or on our security, but you do hear an enormous amount,
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Speaker 12: and it is a growing chorus of concerns about the
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Speaker 12: impact of the data center, water, energy, and other features
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Speaker 12: of on the communities that are supporting this technology. And
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Speaker 12: so on one hand, you get outside the Beltway, it's
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Speaker 12: a data center debate. On the other hand, you get
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Speaker 12: inside the city of New York or Washington, and you're
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Speaker 12: hearing all about concerns about an AI technology without bumpers.
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Speaker 9: And it's become a really interesting kind of sleeper issue
9:47
Speaker 9: that we're now starting to see come to fruition ahead
9:49
Speaker 9: of the midterms because Obviously, these politicians want to show
9:52
Speaker 9: that they're creating jobs, they're creating growth, that there's opportunity
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Speaker 9: here for big investments, for blue collar workers to build
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Speaker 9: these data centers, but more and more polls are showing
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Speaker 9: people don't really want these and they certainly don't want
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Speaker 9: them in their community.
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Speaker 1: There's a new Reuters Ipsos poll that.
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Speaker 9: Shows 45% of those asked said they don't want these
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Speaker 9: data centers in their community. but 59% don't want it
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Speaker 9: within 10 miles of their home.
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Speaker 1: Jeannie, what does that tell you?
10:18
Speaker 9: And if you were running for your seat again in November,
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Speaker 9: how would you navigate this?
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Speaker 10: First of all, can I just thank you guys?
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Speaker 4: That last hour, particularly when you had Lisa and Charlie
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Speaker 4: on with those memories of 9-11, was riveting. I had
10:33
Speaker 4: to message Charlie and tell him how moved I was
10:36
Speaker 4: by his comments. It was just riveting. In terms of
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Speaker 4: the data centers, yeah, this has been the sleeper issue
10:43
Speaker 4: of the campaign today. And I think it's caught many
10:46
Speaker 4: Republicans on the back foot. You had, as you mentioned, Christina,
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Speaker 4: you had Donald Trump coming out with a full-throated embrace
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Speaker 4: of data centers, talking about the innovation, talking about the
11:00
Speaker 4: monetary benefits. But the American public, and I think this
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Speaker 4: is not just about data centers, by the way, I
11:07
Speaker 4: think it's a proxy for all kinds of concern about
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Speaker 4: Everything tech writ large in our lives, from billionaire tech
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Speaker 4: people to flock cameras to data centers to AI, which
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Speaker 4: you were just talking to Mike about, people are so
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Speaker 4: frustrated and so concerned about what this means for them.
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Speaker 4: And data centers coming in your neighborhood or, Christina, as
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Speaker 4: you mentioned, 10 miles down the road, that's something that
11:32
Speaker 4: people can stand up and say, you know what, we've
11:35
Speaker 4: had enough. And so that's why we've seen Republicans at
11:38
Speaker 4: the local and state level like Governor DeSantis or like
11:41
Speaker 4: Governor Abbott. And a little late to the game, you
11:44
Speaker 4: see Ken Paxton coming out and saying, you know what,
11:47
Speaker 4: we're going to take a step back from this because
11:49
Speaker 4: they know how wildly unpopular this is with their constituents. 60,
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Speaker 4: 60 days out of the midterm.
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Speaker 6: Rick, I want to spend a few minutes here talking
11:59
Speaker 6: about this midterm convention that just took place. And, you know,
12:02
Speaker 6: I can imagine that Susie Wiles and others told the president, look,
12:05
Speaker 6: focus on these kitchen table issues, which are clearly so
12:07
Speaker 6: important to so many Americans, maybe try to cater more
12:10
Speaker 6: to the independents, a broader, that go broader than just
12:13
Speaker 6: the base. I'm looking in my inbox here and a
12:15
Speaker 6: press release just came through from NBC News. And Christine
12:18
Speaker 6: Romans evidently had an interview with Howard Lutnick, the Commerce Secretary,
12:22
Speaker 6: who told her this $ 5, 000 Trump dividend, as it's been branded, quote,
12:27
Speaker 6: it's not tax money. He said the administration could earn
12:30
Speaker 6: the money that Donald Trump wants to pay out, not
12:32
Speaker 6: from the deficit and not from taxpayers. What do you
12:35
Speaker 6: make of that? I mean, this is the headline from
12:37
Speaker 6: this two-day event now. People are talking about this. And
12:39
Speaker 6: it's one of these moments where it seems as though
12:41
Speaker 6: the president very easily could have just thrown this out.
12:43
Speaker 6: And now you have the whole panoply of advisors to
12:46
Speaker 6: him kind of bending over backwards to make it seem
12:48
Speaker 6: like a real live issue, even when we know that
12:50
Speaker 6: it would be incredibly difficult, if not impossible for this
12:52
Speaker 6: administration to put forward.
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Speaker 12: Yeah, David, I think what's the most curious thing about
12:57
Speaker 12: this is, as you point out, it's the number one
13:00
Speaker 12: policy item that Donald Trump put on the table for
13:05
Speaker 12: here's what I'm going to do for you in the future.
13:07
Speaker 12: Except not one single other speaker, a hundred other speakers
13:12
Speaker 12: did not mention it a bit. And so you would
13:16
Speaker 12: think you wouldn't want it echoed through the two days
13:19
Speaker 12: of the convention. Let's lay out this great policy. We're
13:21
Speaker 12: going to have this massive stimulus go into the country,
13:25
Speaker 12: $ 1. 3 trillion worth of funds to the American people. And
13:30
Speaker 12: nobody mentioned it. Now, 48 hours after the idea surfaced,
13:34
Speaker 12: you've got cabinet members kind of, you know, circling the
13:36
Speaker 12: wagons trying to figure out, okay, how are we going
13:38
Speaker 12: to pay for this?
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Speaker 10: And what are we going to do? I would say
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Speaker 10: the one.
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Speaker 12: Thing that I would worry about if I were inside
13:45
Speaker 12: the political tent of the White House right now is,
13:48
Speaker 12: are we losing our credibility with voters? Because it's one
13:52
Speaker 12: thing to throw all these ideas out. It's one thing
13:54
Speaker 12: to demagogue. And that has a lot of value sometimes
13:58
Speaker 12: in the political equation. But if you do too much
14:01
Speaker 12: of it, you lose the credibility you have with voters,
14:04
Speaker 12: and then nothing you say they'll listen to. And that is,
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Speaker 12: I think, very close to being one of the net
14:11
Speaker 12: effects of this convention is a credibility loss.
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Speaker 9: Ginny, do you think Democrats are capitalizing on that enough?
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Speaker 9: I mean, it strikes me that the only real counter-programming
14:21
Speaker 9: they had to this Republican midterm Trumpapalooza convention, whatever it was, was,
14:26
Speaker 9: you know, they did have former President Obama meeting in
14:29
Speaker 9: New York with the Speaker of the House. But is
14:32
Speaker 9: that enough? We only have a few seconds here.
14:33
Speaker 6: Presumptive Speaker of the House, I suppose, if Democrats win.
14:36
Speaker 1: Excuse me for that. Hakeem Jeffries. Apologies. Thank you, David.
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Speaker 4: It's OK, Christina. We like it. You know, I don't
14:44
Speaker 4: think they should be counterprogrammed to tell you the truth.
14:46
Speaker 4: I keep saying the more eyeballs on Donald Trump, that's
14:49
Speaker 4: one thing Democrats and Donald Trump agree with. The more
14:52
Speaker 4: Donald Trump you have, the more this is a referendum
14:54
Speaker 4: on Donald Trump and the more you're going to get
14:57
Speaker 4: very angry Democrats and some independents and moderates. to go
15:00
Speaker 4: out and vote Democratic. So they were very, very happy
15:03
Speaker 4: with this. In fact, I think, Christina, they'd like another
15:07
Speaker 4: midterm convention. Now, I don't think you guys would, but
15:09
Speaker 4: they'd like another one because they think this has gone
15:12
Speaker 4: awry for the Republicans. They feel the president is desperate
15:16
Speaker 4: to get out the vote when he's got to offer $ 5, 000.
15:19
Speaker 4: And even Laura Ingraham is saying on Fox, you've got
15:22
Speaker 4: the money. Why don't you give it now? Why wait
15:24
Speaker 4: till after the election? the midterm because it's a quid
15:27
Speaker 4: pro quo. He wants to deny that now, but of course,
15:30
Speaker 4: that's what it is. So Democrats are very happy about
15:33
Speaker 4: this turn of events, I should say.
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Speaker 6: Ginny, great to speak with you as always. Ginny Shienzaino,
15:37
Speaker 6: the Harvard Kennedy School Bloomberg Politics contributor. Rick Davis joining
15:40
Speaker 6: us as well, partner at Stonecourt Capital, Bloomberg Politics contributor
15:43
Speaker 6: as well. We're going to speak to one of Ginny's
15:45
Speaker 6: colleagues here in a little while, Nick Burns, the former
15:46
Speaker 6: ambassador to NATO, former ambassador to Beijing, going to join
15:49
Speaker 6: us here with his memories of what happened on 9-11
15:51
Speaker 6: 25 years ago today.
15:54
Speaker 7: Stay with us on Balance of Power. We'll have much
15:57
Speaker 7: more coming up after this.
16:01
Speaker 5: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch
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16:21
Speaker 1: Welcome back to Balance of Power.
16:22
Speaker 9: It's Christina Ruffini and David Gurra in for Joe Matthew
16:25
Speaker 9: and Kaylee Lyons.
16:25
Speaker 1: Of course, today.
16:27
Speaker 9: It is 25 years since the attacks of September 11th.
16:30
Speaker 9: We're watching live pictures of the memorial in Lower Manhattan
16:34
Speaker 9: as we listened the last couple hours to those many,
16:37
Speaker 9: many names read by family members at the memorials here.
16:41
Speaker 9: We're also expecting a ceremony in Shanksville, Pennsylvania for Flight 93.
16:45
Speaker 9: And we have heard the president speak at the Pentagon today.
16:48
Speaker 9: earlier today. Although Joe is not with us today, he's
16:51
Speaker 9: with us in spirit. And we do want to play
16:53
Speaker 9: some sound from an interview he did with the U.S.
16:56
Speaker 9: Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick on what the U.S. is like
17:00
Speaker 9: with the security situation, how America's safety has changed in
17:03
Speaker 9: the 25 years since those attacks.
17:04
Speaker 1: Take a listen.
17:05
Speaker 10: America is by far safer now. We think about things.
17:08
Speaker 10: We study things.
17:10
Speaker 13: You know, being a part of the government, you know,
17:13
Speaker 13: with a very high security clearance, I get to read
17:16
Speaker 13: all the time. And our adversaries wish us ill. Make
17:20
Speaker 13: no mistake about it, they wish us ill. But we
17:22
Speaker 13: are smart, we are thoughtful, and we are capable. And
17:25
Speaker 13: what actually hurts me the most is when I see
17:28
Speaker 13: people running for office in America who hate America. you know,
17:33
Speaker 13: like say something like America deserved it. I mean, how
17:37
Speaker 13: horrible to suggest that my brother and all my friends
17:41
Speaker 13: who were living the American dream and just came to
17:43
Speaker 13: work that day, for someone to say that we, the
17:47
Speaker 13: great America living the American dream, deserve anything. We deserve happiness.
17:52
Speaker 13: prosperity and the pursuit of the American dream. That's who
17:56
Speaker 13: we are. That's who we've always been. And people who
18:00
Speaker 13: are jealous of us don't deserve airtime. And I wish
18:03
Speaker 13: they didn't get it.
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Speaker 3: Well, what would be your message to young people who
18:05
Speaker 3: were not alive then? This is something that they've read about,
18:08
Speaker 3: that they've heard about. And there's some very troubling conversations
18:12
Speaker 3: that we hear in high schools and on college campuses
18:16
Speaker 3: about this. What do you tell people who were not
18:19
Speaker 3: alive on 9-11, who do not realize that What a
18:22
Speaker 3: big deal that was for the history of this country.
18:25
Speaker 13: The American dream lives inside of each of us. It's
18:30
Speaker 13: part of our DNA and our heritage.
18:32
Speaker 10: It's who we are and who we become.
18:35
Speaker 13: And the rest of the world just does not have
18:38
Speaker 13: that entrepreneurship, the energy, the vision that I can be
18:42
Speaker 13: born and I could.
18:43
Speaker 10: Be the president of the United States of America. Anybody can.
18:46
Speaker 10: And they are.
18:47
Speaker 13: And so what I would say to them is, You
18:50
Speaker 13: have inside of you the American dream. And if other
18:53
Speaker 13: people are jealous and other people are nasty and other
18:56
Speaker 13: people hate you and jihadists want to kill you, the
18:59
Speaker 13: fact is the beauty of America is the American dream.
19:04
Speaker 13: And you should always protect it, defend it, and love
19:08
Speaker 13: it because it's inside of each of us and it
19:11
Speaker 13: makes us what we are, which is great and special.
19:15
Speaker 6: The Commerce Secretary Howard Luttner, they're in conversation with our
19:18
Speaker 6: colleague Joe Matthew at the University of North Carolina a
19:21
Speaker 6: few days ago, talking about the legacy of 9-11. Of course,
19:24
Speaker 6: he suffered so much personal tragedy in those attacks, including
19:27
Speaker 6: losing his brother, as he alluded to in those comments
19:29
Speaker 6: just a few moments ago. I want to bring in
19:32
Speaker 6: now Brigadier General Leland Blanchard II. He's the Interim Commanding
19:35
Speaker 6: General of the District of Columbia National Guard, joining us now.
19:38
Speaker 6: Great to have you with us. And you heard the
19:39
Speaker 6: Commerce Secretary there say unequivocally, the U.S. is safer now
19:42
Speaker 6: than it was before. And I wanted to put that
19:44
Speaker 6: same question to you. If I'm not mistaken, you were
19:47
Speaker 6: an officer in Fort Benning, Georgia, on the day of
19:49
Speaker 6: those attacks, and it certainly shaped your life significantly after
19:53
Speaker 6: those attacks took place.
19:54
Speaker 10: Do you agree?
19:55
Speaker 6: Are we safer now than we were on September the 11th?
19:59
Speaker 11: Well, I think we are certainly safer, but I also
20:01
Speaker 11: acknowledge that the threat continues to evolve. It's always something
20:06
Speaker 11: that we got to continue to work to stay ahead of.
20:09
Speaker 11: And so I agree, we are definitely safer. I think
20:11
Speaker 11: we're certainly more aware of the dangers out there in
20:15
Speaker 11: the world, but it is something that we've got to
20:17
Speaker 11: continually fight and address and stay ahead of.
20:21
Speaker 9: I do want to ask you, given your background and
20:22
Speaker 9: your current mission, one of the things that we really
20:25
Speaker 9: saw after 9-11 was the militarization of police departments. And
20:29
Speaker 9: not just in big cities like D.C., New York, Atlanta, but,
20:31
Speaker 9: you know, smaller cities, smaller towns getting armored vehicles, getting
20:36
Speaker 9: prepared for potential terrorism attacks. And that kind of became
20:39
Speaker 9: a self-fulfilling thing where you had these police departments looking
20:43
Speaker 9: more and more like militaries.
20:45
Speaker 1: Has there been a pullback of that? Do you think
20:47
Speaker 1: some of that went too far?
20:48
Speaker 9: And do these police departments always know or have the
20:51
Speaker 9: best ability to utilize some of this equipment? Or is
20:54
Speaker 9: there a point where they should turn to the National Guard,
20:56
Speaker 9: turn to the military instead?
20:59
Speaker 11: Well, I think it's going to be up to those
21:01
Speaker 11: individual departments, right? I mean, it varies so much. And
21:05
Speaker 11: it's the responsibility of those leaders to ensure that every
21:08
Speaker 11: one of their officers is And I know they work
21:10
Speaker 11: hard to make sure that they're current, that they have
21:12
Speaker 11: the best equipment possible. It's their responsibility. And it's a
21:15
Speaker 11: tremendous responsibility when you're the sheriff or the police chief
21:19
Speaker 11: of a town or a city to ensure that everyone
21:22
Speaker 11: is secure and safe. And I think as we continue
21:24
Speaker 11: to move forward and acknowledge those challenges, again, the world
21:28
Speaker 11: continues to change. the National Guard is always ready to participate,
21:33
Speaker 11: to be a great partner. And where those efforts combine
21:37
Speaker 11: and we're able to support and link up and work together,
21:40
Speaker 11: I think there's great benefit for that. And again, I
21:43
Speaker 11: love the collaboration that we see and any opportunity to
21:47
Speaker 11: keep our communities safe and our citizens and visitors safe.
21:50
Speaker 11: We're going to do that.
21:51
Speaker 6: General, I know we want to talk about your current
21:53
Speaker 6: mission here in just a moment, but let me ask
21:54
Speaker 6: you before we get there, just about the way the
21:57
Speaker 6: events of September the 11th changed cities, the configuration of cities.
22:01
Speaker 6: And you're in Washington today. It looks radically different, I think.
22:04
Speaker 6: You can navigate it differently than you did before September
22:07
Speaker 6: the 11th. Could you meditate on that just a little
22:09
Speaker 6: bit here, the way that we've kind of seen this
22:11
Speaker 6: tradeoff between, yes, personal liberties, access to buildings, access to places,
22:16
Speaker 6: and the need for there to be more heightened security
22:18
Speaker 6: in cities around this country?
22:21
Speaker 11: Yeah, so that's a, you know, it's interesting. And I
22:23
Speaker 11: heard the secretary kind of address it. How do you
22:26
Speaker 11: explain it to people who weren't maybe alive at that time?
22:29
Speaker 11: And I think it's a balance, right? And so you
22:32
Speaker 11: want to make sure that you have all of your
22:33
Speaker 11: liberties that are guaranteed under the Constitution. You know, that's
22:37
Speaker 11: what we in the military and I know law enforcement officers,
22:41
Speaker 11: you raise your right hand and swear an allegiance to that.
22:43
Speaker 11: You want to have that balance where you're able to
22:45
Speaker 11: do that. But you also acknowledge that there's a threat
22:48
Speaker 11: out there and it's our job collectively to get after that,
22:52
Speaker 11: to ensure that that our children are able to start
22:55
Speaker 11: a school year and finish the school year in a
22:58
Speaker 11: safe environment. That is an ongoing challenge. And I think
23:01
Speaker 11: it's as you look back over the last 25 years
23:04
Speaker 11: and I know for me, as I reflect on how
23:08
Speaker 11: how different the world has changed. that was such a
23:11
Speaker 11: seminal event for me. It has changed and impacted everything
23:15
Speaker 11: that I do the way I do it. But how
23:17
Speaker 11: do you pass that along to future generations and let
23:20
Speaker 11: them know what we've had to maybe give up a
23:25
Speaker 11: little bit here and there to make sure that we
23:27
Speaker 11: maintain that balance and that they don't forget what it
23:31
Speaker 11: takes to secure those liberties?
23:33
Speaker 9: General, I do want to ask you about your current mandate.
23:35
Speaker 9: We just saw the order for the National Guard in D.C.
23:38
Speaker 9: has been extended to January 2029. But look, I lived
23:41
Speaker 9: in the city 17 years. I've been there for the good,
23:43
Speaker 9: the bad, and the in-between. And when you look at
23:47
Speaker 9: where we see the National Guardsmen the most, where we
23:51
Speaker 9: come into contact with them the most, they're in the metro.
23:54
Speaker 1: They're at the Georgetown Water Park.
23:55
Speaker 9: They're at places the administration is likely to see you,
23:58
Speaker 9: but they're not always in the places... where the city
24:01
Speaker 9: says they need help. What exactly is your mission and
24:05
Speaker 9: why do you need longer to accomplish it?
24:08
Speaker 11: Well, I would tell you that we're everywhere. So if
24:10
Speaker 11: you go to Ward 7, Ward 8, we're there. Whether
24:14
Speaker 11: you're Columbia Heights or over in Anacostia, I encourage people
24:18
Speaker 11: to get out and about in the city. Certainly we
24:21
Speaker 11: are going to be where there are large crowds, but
24:23
Speaker 11: mostly what we're doing is we're working in coordination at
24:27
Speaker 11: the request of our MPD, our federal agency partners, So
24:31
Speaker 11: that we can fill in where they need us. That's
24:35
Speaker 11: our role is to provide support. A lot of capacity,
24:39
Speaker 11: filling those gaps that they may have, particularly in large events.
24:42
Speaker 1: So what are the rules of engagement?
24:44
Speaker 9: If somebody grabs my shopping bag, are your guys allowed
24:48
Speaker 9: to intervene?
24:48
Speaker 1: Do they have body cameras? What are the rules on
24:51
Speaker 1: using firearms?
24:53
Speaker 3: So.
24:54
Speaker 11: Words have meaning. So we don't operate under rules of engagement.
24:58
Speaker 11: We operate under the rules for the use of force,
25:01
Speaker 11: just like, you know, so has been provided to us
25:03
Speaker 11: through the Department of Justice. again, in collaboration with the
25:06
Speaker 11: law enforcement agencies. But absolutely. So our soldiers and airmen
25:10
Speaker 11: out on the street are deputized as special deputy U.S. marshals.
25:14
Speaker 11: They have the authority that is needed to operate. But again,
25:19
Speaker 11: we're here to support local and federal law enforcement agencies.
25:22
Speaker 11: But absolutely, if someone is committing a crime like that,
25:26
Speaker 11: where someone is at risk, because it can quickly escalate
25:29
Speaker 11: from stealing a bag to physically assaulting someone. So they
25:34
Speaker 11: are going to place themselves in there, de-escalate that situation,
25:38
Speaker 11: and again, work, call local law enforcement, get people moving.
25:42
Speaker 11: But absolutely, they will intervene in that situation.
25:44
Speaker 10: We've got about a minute left.
25:45
Speaker 6: I asked you how the landscape has changed in a
25:47
Speaker 6: lot of cities. I will say visiting D.C., the It
25:49
Speaker 6: looks different to see National Guardsmen and women around D.C.
25:53
Speaker 6: And I know a criticism is this is kind of
25:55
Speaker 6: a kind of martial law almost. It's not what we're
25:57
Speaker 6: used to seeing. How do you respond to that in
25:59
Speaker 6: the minute we have left?
26:01
Speaker 11: Yeah, I would just say go out and visit, talk
26:03
Speaker 11: to the soldiers and airmen out on the streets. I
26:05
Speaker 11: hear that occasionally, but I also get the hugs when
26:08
Speaker 11: I'm out visiting. I try to visit every single day
26:10
Speaker 11: with our soldiers and airmen out there. The comments that
26:13
Speaker 11: I get, particularly in some of the neighborhoods where resources
26:17
Speaker 11: haven't been readily available over the years, they're very welcoming.
26:22
Speaker 11: I get a lot of hugs, a lot of comments. And,
26:25
Speaker 11: you know, again, it represents a significant investment into the
26:28
Speaker 11: security and safety of every neighborhood. And I think for
26:31
Speaker 11: the most part, residents are happy with that. I understand
26:35
Speaker 11: not everyone is going to be. But as we move forward,
26:39
Speaker 11: I continue to just tell people, engage those airmen and
26:42
Speaker 11: soldiers out there and ask them why they serve, why
26:44
Speaker 11: they're here. You might be surprised how close they are
26:47
Speaker 11: to your perspective.
26:49
Speaker 3: All right.
26:49
Speaker 9: Brigadier General Leland Blanchard II, he is the Interim Commanding
26:53
Speaker 9: General of the District of Columbia National Guard.
26:55
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us today.
26:58
Speaker 7: Stay with us on Balance of Power. We'll have much
27:00
Speaker 7: more coming up after this.
27:05
Speaker 5: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch
27:09
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27:15
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27:19
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27:22
Speaker 9: I am Christina Ruffini here with David Guray in for
27:24
Speaker 9: Joe and Kaylee today on Balance of Power. And David,
27:27
Speaker 9: we've been talking a lot about 9-11, what it did
27:29
Speaker 9: to the country, what it did to the world, but
27:31
Speaker 9: now we're going to focus a little bit on how
27:32
Speaker 9: it altered geopolitics.
27:33
Speaker 10: Yes.
27:34
Speaker 6: Our next guest spent August 2001 packing up the ambassador's
27:37
Speaker 6: apartment in Athens, getting ready for a move to Brussels.
27:40
Speaker 6: Nick Burns moved there to be the U.S. ambassador to
27:43
Speaker 6: NATO and got there 12 days, I believe, before the
27:46
Speaker 6: events of September the 11th. He is now Professor of
27:48
Speaker 6: the Practice of Diplomacy at the Harvard Kennedy School and
27:50
Speaker 6: joins us now. Ambassador Burns, great to have you with
27:52
Speaker 6: us once again. And I wonder if you could take
27:54
Speaker 6: us back to that day. We've been reminiscing over the
27:56
Speaker 6: course of these last two hours about the events of
27:59
Speaker 6: a quarter century ago. How did you see what was
28:02
Speaker 6: unfolding and indeed what happened in the hours that followed?
28:05
Speaker 14: David, it was obviously a catastrophic day for our country
28:08
Speaker 14: and for people around the world. And at NATO headquarters,
28:12
Speaker 14: we couldn't reach Washington for several hours because the White
28:16
Speaker 14: House had been evacuated The State Department and Pentagon evacuated.
28:20
Speaker 10: The Pentagon attacked.
28:21
Speaker 14: And so my combined military and diplomatic staff was trying
28:25
Speaker 14: to figure out what can we do to help the
28:26
Speaker 14: home front. And my phone rang. And it was David Wright,
28:30
Speaker 14: the Canadian ambassador. And he was the senior ambassador at NATO,
28:34
Speaker 14: the longest serving. And he said, Nick, I think we
28:36
Speaker 14: can invoke Article 5 of the NATO treaty. An attack
28:39
Speaker 14: on one shall be considered an attack on all. It
28:42
Speaker 14: had never been invoked in NATO history. We hadn't had
28:44
Speaker 14: a war in Europe since the Second World War. And boy,
28:48
Speaker 14: was that a shot in the arm. And within hours,
28:51
Speaker 14: I received calls from the Danish ambassador, the German, Italian,
28:54
Speaker 14: Spanish ambassadors, the British ambassador. They were all with us.
28:59
Speaker 14: And by the next morning, we were ready to invoke
29:01
Speaker 14: Article 5. It's a unanimous vote of NATO. If one
29:04
Speaker 14: country had dissented, it wouldn't have occurred. And I called
29:08
Speaker 14: back to Condoleezza Rice, who was a close friend. She
29:10
Speaker 14: was the national security advisor. And she gave me the
29:13
Speaker 14: president's personal authority at four in the morning in Washington
29:16
Speaker 14: to vote for this And I'll never forget what she said.
29:20
Speaker 14: She said, look, before you vote one more thing.
29:22
Speaker 10: I said, what's that?
29:24
Speaker 14: And she said, it's good to have friends in the world.
29:27
Speaker 14: And I think we all felt that when the American
29:30
Speaker 14: people woke up on the 12th of September. We had NATO, Canada,
29:35
Speaker 14: all the Europeans ready to go into battle with us.
29:37
Speaker 14: They all did go into battle together. in Afghanistan and
29:41
Speaker 14: most of them into Iraq subsequently. So, you know, I've
29:44
Speaker 14: reflected on this a long time. David and Christine, I
29:47
Speaker 14: was ambassador in China. The Chinese don't have any allies
29:50
Speaker 14: who will go to bat for them. The Russians don't,
29:52
Speaker 14: but we do. And so I think we should deeply value,
29:56
Speaker 14: respect China.
29:57
Speaker 10: Our allies. That's the lesson I learned on 9-11.
29:59
Speaker 9: Ambassador, that's so interesting to me. I actually didn't know.
30:02
Speaker 9: I had assumed the U.S. had asked to invoke Article 5.
30:05
Speaker 9: I didn't realize the idea had come from other allies themselves.
30:09
Speaker 1: To trigger that clause.
30:10
Speaker 9: I did want to ask you, as we were talking
30:12
Speaker 9: about having you on and all the different things we
30:14
Speaker 9: wanted to speak about, when it comes to Article 5,
30:16
Speaker 9: you talk so much about how important.
30:18
Speaker 1: It was for the U.S. to have allies in The U.S.
30:21
Speaker 9: Has strained a lot of those relationships, especially with Europe,
30:24
Speaker 9: right now with Canada. If the same circumstances were to
30:27
Speaker 9: present themselves again, we talk so often about whether the U.S.
30:31
Speaker 9: would hold up its end of Article 5. Do you
30:34
Speaker 9: think the Europeans, the Canadians, the other NATO members would
30:36
Speaker 9: be so ready to trigger that mutual defense treaty again,
30:40
Speaker 9: given where those relationships.
30:42
Speaker 1: Are right now?
30:43
Speaker 14: Well, that's a very good question. I would hope that,
30:48
Speaker 14: God forbid, we ever had another episode and attack on
30:51
Speaker 14: the United States like 9-11, and I hope we never,
30:53
Speaker 14: ever do, I would hope the allies, of course, would
30:56
Speaker 14: defend us.
30:57
Speaker 10: I'm an American. I would want our country to be defended. But,
31:00
Speaker 10: you know, it goes both ways.
31:02
Speaker 14: And the way NATO works, it works on trust.
31:04
Speaker 10: It works on mutual commitment.
31:06
Speaker 14: So if we as Americans want to be able to
31:09
Speaker 14: call on our allies on a day like that, then
31:12
Speaker 14: we need to be good to them and respect them
31:15
Speaker 14: and show that respect and respect. build up NATO. And
31:19
Speaker 14: I do think President Trump has not done that. And
31:23
Speaker 14: I wish, I hope he'll change course. I hope he'll
31:25
Speaker 14: show greater respect for Canada. What a great neighbor Canada
31:29
Speaker 14: is for all of us. And it's painful to see
31:32
Speaker 14: this talk of a 51st state. It's painful to see
31:35
Speaker 14: the talk that we should annex Greenland and now Iceland.
31:40
Speaker 14: It doesn't make sense for us. And boy, I in
31:45
Speaker 14: my diplomatic career, you know, you need strength, you need leverage.
31:48
Speaker 14: We're so much stronger with our allies. So I do
31:51
Speaker 14: think it works both ways. If we show faith in them,
31:54
Speaker 14: trust in them, they'll show faith in us.
31:57
Speaker 6: The Prime Minister of Canada, Mark Carney, getting ready to
32:00
Speaker 6: make a trip to Strasbourg, he's going to deliver a
32:01
Speaker 6: speech to the European Parliament ahead of Ursula von der
32:04
Speaker 6: Leyen's speech the following day for State of the EU speech.
32:09
Speaker 6: And I was struck by something he said in advance
32:10
Speaker 6: of that, Ambassador Burns. He said, It's my strong personal
32:13
Speaker 6: view that the international order will be rebuilt, but it
32:16
Speaker 6: will be rebuilt out of Europe. And I'm curious how
32:19
Speaker 6: you kind of look at these three poles, the U.S.,
32:21
Speaker 6: Europe and Canada right now, and the way that that configuration,
32:24
Speaker 6: that balance has shifted here in recent months.
32:28
Speaker 14: You know, I think the more another way to think
32:32
Speaker 14: about it, and I think Prime Minister Carney is a
32:33
Speaker 14: very smart guy and his speech was thought provoking. The
32:37
Speaker 14: real threat to the democratic countries of the world is
32:39
Speaker 14: from Vladimir Putin trying to divide Europe again, an authoritarian east,
32:43
Speaker 14: a democratic west. The other big threat is China. And
32:48
Speaker 14: I think it's incumbent on Canada and the European countries, Japan,
32:52
Speaker 14: South Korea and the United States to be working together.
32:56
Speaker 14: We want to live in peace with those two big countries,
32:59
Speaker 14: but we don't want to be run over by them.
33:01
Speaker 14: We have to defend our values. And so I think
33:04
Speaker 14: it would be a mistake, frankly. for us, for the
33:07
Speaker 14: democratic world to divide. Now, I certainly understand the frustrations
33:12
Speaker 14: of Canada and of the Canadian prime minister, but I
33:15
Speaker 14: do hope that the United States will shift course and
33:18
Speaker 14: show allegiance to them because the threat from China long-term,
33:21
Speaker 14: the threat from Putin short-term is pretty profound.
33:25
Speaker 9: But given those rifts between America and many of its allies,
33:29
Speaker 9: when you're going into a meeting like a meeting with
33:32
Speaker 9: the Chinese or a meeting with the Russians, countries with
33:36
Speaker 9: a continuous leadership, with long memories, and with long strategy
33:39
Speaker 9: for military and diplomatic plans, does that hurt the U.S.
33:43
Speaker 9: even in the best negotiating stance? Does China, does Russia
33:47
Speaker 9: know that? Will they capitalize on that in those meetings?
33:51
Speaker 14: Well, Christina, you're right in one sense. You know, if
33:53
Speaker 14: you're Xi Jinping, you've been in power since 2012, or
33:56
Speaker 14: Putin has been in power since 1999. there is one advantage.
34:01
Speaker 14: They control everything. They have ultimate power. They can think strategically.
34:05
Speaker 14: They can think several decades out. Democracies find it hard
34:09
Speaker 14: to do that because we alternate power. We have elections.
34:12
Speaker 14: But then again, we wouldn't have it any other way.
34:15
Speaker 14: We happen to have friends and allies like on 9-11
34:19
Speaker 14: who will go to bat for us. That leverage that
34:21
Speaker 14: comes with allied powers is far greater than anything the Soviet,
34:25
Speaker 14: the Russians, excuse me, or the Chinese can muster. So
34:28
Speaker 14: I recognize their tactical strength. But I think strategically, we
34:32
Speaker 14: in the democratic world have greater strength.
34:35
Speaker 6: We're looking ahead to this visit by the Chinese president
34:38
Speaker 6: to Washington, D.C., and you and I have talked in
34:39
Speaker 6: the past about the three potential meetings these two leaders
34:42
Speaker 6: could have here in the months to come. Curious how
34:45
Speaker 6: you're thinking about that meeting, what you think the administration's
34:49
Speaker 6: objectives should be here, and what would constitute a successful
34:52
Speaker 6: summit between these two leaders in Washington?
34:55
Speaker 14: I think President Trump and Secretary Besant are right to
34:58
Speaker 14: put economics first on the agenda. We need a supply
35:01
Speaker 14: chain truce and we need a tariff truce with China.
35:04
Speaker 14: It's been elusive. David, you and I have talked about
35:07
Speaker 14: this before. They thought they would get it at the
35:10
Speaker 14: President's May trip to Beijing.
35:12
Speaker 10: They didn't.
35:12
Speaker 14: I hope they get it in Washington on September 24, 25.
35:16
Speaker 14: That would really buoy the American economy, investors to know
35:21
Speaker 14: that neither side's going to change the tariff schedule, and
35:26
Speaker 14: neither side's going to withhold rare earths and other critical
35:29
Speaker 14: minerals and supplies.
35:30
Speaker 10: From the global market. That's first.
35:33
Speaker 14: Second, I hope, and President Trump's talked about this, they're
35:36
Speaker 14: going to talk about AI. From a national securities perspective,
35:39
Speaker 14: China and the US, Japan, the NATO countries need to
35:43
Speaker 14: be together in limiting the influence of AI when it
35:47
Speaker 14: comes to weapons of mass destruction. I think you know
35:50
Speaker 14: that When President Biden had his last meeting with Xi Jinping,
35:53
Speaker 14: November 2024, they agreed human beings should remain in control
35:57
Speaker 14: of nuclear weapons, not AI systems. So there has to
36:00
Speaker 14: be regulation in that respect. And then finally, I think
36:04
Speaker 14: Taiwan's a major issue. I believe it's a mistake for
36:08
Speaker 14: President Trump not to go forward with this major multibillion
36:12
Speaker 14: dollar arms sale for Taiwan. I think it shows weakness
36:15
Speaker 14: to the Chinese leadership. It hurts Taiwan. It's in the
36:18
Speaker 14: American national interest to continue that. Those, I think, at
36:21
Speaker 14: least for me, would be the three big issues for
36:25
Speaker 14: this meeting two weeks hence.
36:27
Speaker 9: What do you make of some of these reports that
36:29
Speaker 9: officials inside the Taiwanese government or inside their leadership apparatus
36:35
Speaker 9: are so concerned about whether or not America would have
36:38
Speaker 9: its back or this conflict to erupt that they are
36:40
Speaker 9: considering capitulation to China at this point?
36:44
Speaker 14: I don't give much credence to that. It's a democracy
36:48
Speaker 14: in Taiwan, much like ours. So there's a lot of noise,
36:50
Speaker 14: a lot of conversation, which is appropriate. But the government,
36:54
Speaker 14: the president and the cabinet, I think they're all in
36:58
Speaker 14: on learning from what Ukraine has done well to hold
37:00
Speaker 14: off the Russians, learning about anti-ship weaponry, drone offensive and
37:06
Speaker 14: defensive technology, acquiring that, which is the purpose of these
37:09
Speaker 14: arms sales by the United States. What you're hearing is
37:13
Speaker 14: from some of the opposition parties, and one of them
37:16
Speaker 14: in particular, the KMT, which I think is more interested
37:19
Speaker 14: in getting along with Beijing than resisting a threat of
37:24
Speaker 14: force from Beijing. I don't doubt, though, that the government
37:27
Speaker 14: of Taiwan wants to defend this. You know, it's 23
37:30
Speaker 14: million people living in a very strong democracy. Americans should
37:34
Speaker 14: want to support that type of place.
37:38
Speaker 6: Could we close by talking about Iran? The last time
37:40
Speaker 6: you and I spoke, that memo of understanding was all
37:43
Speaker 6: but dead. I think it was ripped up in the
37:44
Speaker 6: days that followed. But we've looked at a stalemate since then.
37:48
Speaker 6: And now you see the rhetoric from the Iranian side,
37:51
Speaker 6: the U.S.
37:51
Speaker 10: Side.
37:52
Speaker 6: We've seen the Houthis get involved in this conflict as
37:55
Speaker 6: they hadn't at the beginning. And I'm curious sort of
37:57
Speaker 6: how you see the state of play. And indeed, if
38:00
Speaker 6: you see any kind of resolution here in the near
38:02
Speaker 6: term horizon.
38:03
Speaker 14: David, I'm sorry to say I don't see a resolution
38:05
Speaker 14: anytime soon. I think this is a stalemate. I think
38:10
Speaker 14: the Iranians believe that they are stronger will than we are.
38:14
Speaker 14: We should disappoint them in that. They believe that we're
38:17
Speaker 14: going to give in first because of the midterm elections.
38:21
Speaker 14: And I think at all costs, the Trump administration is
38:26
Speaker 14: correct in saying we cannot allow Iran to be a
38:30
Speaker 14: toll keeper in the Strait of Hormuz. Think of the
38:33
Speaker 14: disadvantages for the global economy and shipment of oil and
38:37
Speaker 14: other commodities. That, I think, is a goal, preventing Iran
38:42
Speaker 14: from having that capacity that almost every country in the
38:45
Speaker 14: world can agree with. On the other hand, I think
38:48
Speaker 14: the war was a mistake. We were wrong to go in,
38:51
Speaker 14: but we are where we are. I hope the Trump
38:53
Speaker 14: administration succeeds in convincing the Iranians to back down, but
38:57
Speaker 14: I don't see that happening anytime soon. I would think
39:01
Speaker 14: the Iranians would try to hold out Beyond our midterms,
39:04
Speaker 14: President Trump has said he thinks they will. And so
39:07
Speaker 14: this is going to be a very messy situation, a
39:10
Speaker 14: diplomatic outcome in the short term.
39:12
Speaker 10: I don't think it's in the cards, unfortunately.
39:15
Speaker 1: Ambassador, I hate to give you only about a minute
39:17
Speaker 1: to answer this, but I.
39:18
Speaker 9: Do want to ask you, as we talk about soft
39:21
Speaker 9: power negotiating prowess, is the State Department even functioning right
39:26
Speaker 9: now to capacity? And would you advise a young person
39:28
Speaker 9: to become a diplomat for America?
39:30
Speaker 14: The State Department's in dire straits. We've had too many
39:34
Speaker 14: of our senior officers fired by this administration, forced out, sidelined.
39:39
Speaker 14: In the major negotiations, Christina, with Putin last week, there
39:44
Speaker 14: was no foreign service officer in the room. On Iran,
39:47
Speaker 14: no foreign service officers who know the Iranians well in
39:50
Speaker 14: the room with Steve Witkoff and Jared Kushner. I think
39:52
Speaker 14: it's really a shame that they're being sidelined. I do
39:56
Speaker 14: teach students at Harvard, and I encourage them to go
39:59
Speaker 14: into the State Department because a future president, Republican or Democrat,
40:03
Speaker 14: is going to want to rebuild our diplomatic strength. And
40:06
Speaker 14: I certainly want to encourage young Americans to keep the
40:09
Speaker 14: faith that we need good, strong diplomats to help defend
40:12
Speaker 14: the country.
40:13
Speaker 6: After a long career in the diplomatic corps, he's now
40:15
Speaker 6: the Roy and Barbara Goodman Family Professor of the Practice
40:17
Speaker 6: of Diplomacy and International Relations at the Harvard Kennedy School.
40:19
Speaker 6: Nick Burns, always great to speak to you. Thank you
40:21
Speaker 6: very much for engaging with us on a range of
40:24
Speaker 6: issues here as we look ahead again to that summit
40:25
Speaker 6: between President Trump and President Xi taking place in Washington
40:28
Speaker 6: in a couple weeks' time. And, Christina, it's safe to
40:30
Speaker 6: say there's a lot on that agenda. We'll see sort
40:32
Speaker 6: of what floats to the top as it unfolds.
40:34
Speaker 1: I mean, it's really going to be interesting.
40:35
Speaker 9: AI, Iran will come up, oil prices, energy, all of
40:38
Speaker 9: the above, and we'll see if Taiwan comes up or not.
40:41
Speaker 9: It's something that critics have said has not been voiced
40:43
Speaker 9: as strongly as it should be in some of these
40:45
Speaker 9: rooms in previous meetings by this administration.
40:47
Speaker 6: Our thanks to you for joining us here on Balance
40:48
Speaker 6: of Power on Bloomberg Television and Bloomberg Radio. David Gurra,
40:50
Speaker 6: Christina Ruffini, and for Joe Matthew and Kayleigh Lyons on
40:53
Speaker 6: this Friday afternoon. Coverage continues here across our many platforms,
40:56
Speaker 6: Bloomberg TV, Bloomberg Radio, Bloomberg.com, and the Bloomberg Business App.
41:00
Speaker 10: Stay with us.
41:00
Speaker 11: And this weekend.
41:05
Speaker 7: Thanks for listening to the Balance of Power podcast. Make
41:08
Speaker 7: sure to subscribe if you haven't already at Apple, Spotify,
41:11
Speaker 7: or wherever you get your podcasts. And you can find
41:14
Speaker 7: us live every weekday from Washington, D.C. at noontime Eastern
41:18
Speaker 7: at Bloomberg.com.