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Just Transition Labour Centre: Interview with Newton Masuku · TIPS Podcast

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_02: Nice to meet you, Newton.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the TIPS podcast.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_02: Can you please just introduce yourself and tell us what you do?
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: My name is Newton Masugu.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'm the national spokesperson of the South African Federation of Trade in Otsaftu.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_02: All right, nice to meet you.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_02: My first question to you is why do we have the Just Transition Labor Center and why is it important?
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, the Just Transition Labor Center is important in that we need to have a research center dedicated to researching from the working class perspective, from the workers' perspective.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: We must remember that we are of the view that research itself is never neutral.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: It begins with certain assumptions that are this way or that, depending on the class that is interested in that particular research.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: And therefore, it is very important that we have the research labor center so that we are able to look at the nuances that affect the working class as the transition progresses, but also with respect to climate change.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_02: Have you noticed any impact?
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_02: Because I believe it's generally new.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_02: Have you seen any impact since it's been in existence?
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: Well, its impact, of course, is still minuscule, but it is there in that at least the upper layer of the trade unions, of the trade union affiliates themselves are beginning to become acquainted and conversant with these topics.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: They are no longer alien to them.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: And therefore, that we are hoping that as time goes on we'll cascade downwards to the general membership, and therefore we'll be in a good position to put our proposals forward.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_02: So, as a member of SAFTO, what key issues do you think the JTLC needs to focus on?
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: Well, the one, the implications of the transition itself for the workers and the broader working class in general.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: Two, whether or not, because of course there's an assumption that as we transition, the level of jobs that will be created will be on the same scale.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: But of course, the evolution of technology suggests otherwise.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: It suggests that as technology becomes more and more implemented, it displaces labor, and therefore you are going to have surplus populations as a result.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: So we want research with something with respect to that so that we can be able to put as alternative social protections that are solid that when we transition workers displaced by a labor-saving machine, they are able to continue to fend for themselves and their families.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_02: What's your take in terms of us as a nation generating our own technology in terms of climate mitigation versus importing technologies that might be mitigating?
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: Well, ideally that would be perfect because then it would lead to industrialization and then therefore you would be able to employ workers and so on and so forth.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: There would be economic activity.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: But of course, this that requires a state that is willing to take the center stage.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: You can't do it with the private sector.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: The private sector is risk-averse.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: If anything, it wants the state to carry its risk for it.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: And therefore, you are going to need a state that is willing to do that, to take the center stage of the reindustrialization of the country in the production of green technologies.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: In other words, you are going to have to change the macroeconomic pillars of the economy, fiscal policy and monetary policy.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: Instead of cutting budgets, you are going to have to spend more.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: Instead of ramping up interest rate, making it difficult for the economy to expand, you are going to keep it low so that we are able to expand the economy.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: So that would depend on a state that is willing to do that.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: But that ideally would be what should happen indeed.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: Are we willing?
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: Well, not yet, at least, because labor over the years, I mean, since the end of Apartheid, the labor movement has progressively weakened over time.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: And this has a number of factors.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: Amongst other things, the informalization of labor, technological unemployment, the labor precarity, the bureaucratization of the trade unions themselves.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: But also that over time, as the ANC took over, the people who had the capacity in the labor movement were migrated into the state itself.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: And therefore the labor movement was hallowed out.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a combination of factors that led to the decline of the labor movement in the country.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: And the trade union density tells you that over 74% of the workforce is ununionized.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: And therefore it tells you about the extent of the weakness of the labor movement.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: And as a result, we are not yet on the winning stage, as it were.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, these are our aspirations.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_02: So where do you see the JTLC going in the future with the work that it does?
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we are hoping that it will intensify its research, of course, based on the needs of the trade unions themselves.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: We are the ones who, at least as I understand this conception, who are supposed to submit the topics would like the research on, so that we're able to disseminate that information to our members, but also to capacitate the leadership and indeed the technocrats of the unions themselves.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, we are hoping that as time goes on, it will grow into a force, a force that is able to do multiple research simultaneously depending on the demand that we place on it, but also maybe it may over time expand into some form of partly an educative center.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: So not only just research, it is able, therefore, to you can have accredited courses where at least the trade union shop stewards and even the bureaucrats themselves can come and be taught about these questions.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Newton.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_02: Do you have any final remarks?
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: No, just to say I'm happy with the launch of the I mean the annual summit, the inaugural summit, and the research papers have been enlightening, and of course the engagements have been robust and indeed eye-opening.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I'm I'm happy about that.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_02: All right, thank you, Newton, for joining us.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you very much.