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What I've Learnt - Sherele Moody · WHAT I'VE LEARNT

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: Well anti-violence activist Sherelle Moody is an award-winning journalist, femicide and child death researcher, and the creator of Australia's only memorial to women and children lost to violence.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: Her projects include Australian Femicide Watch, the Red Heart Campaign, and the groundbreaking Australian Femicide and Child Death Map.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: Sherelle has been documenting the killing of women and children since 2015, and her work has been recognized with multiple awards.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: Well, another week and another seven women murdered.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: Sherelle says this has been one of her toughest weeks, and she's been doing this for a long time.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: She basically started this as a memorial designed to commemorate lives lost while providing a respectful, interactive forum highlighting the impact of violence on our community.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: I respectfully advise that the memorial contains descriptions of extreme acts of terrorism against women and children, and listeners should be aware as it can cause distress.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: Well, at 3 a.m.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: on Sunday, the 23rd of March, police were notified of the disappearance of a 19-year-old woman last seen in arena on the New South Wales Central Coast.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: The next day in the afternoon, police found the body of Audrey Griffin in a creek in arena.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: At the time, police said the death was not suspicious.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: But this week, a 53-year-old man was arrested in Surrey Hill, Sydney, and charged with murder in relation to the woman's death.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: Well, tragically, this is another week and another murdered woman.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: And in fact, there have been two women who have been murdered this week.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: It is beyond uh incomprehensible what is going on here, and we're very fortunate to have us join outspoken and also well educated, unfortunately, in this arena.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: We will welcome to the podcast uh Sherelle, who has an extraordinary uh mission to educate and advocate uh for women who are victims of crime.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I'd like to thank Sherelle Moody for joining us at the What I've Learned podcast.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: Hi, Sherelle.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having me.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: I'll just make a small correction there to the intro.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so last week we actually lost, uh, I documented the killing of seven women last week.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: So six of them were killed last week, and Audrey Griffin, who you mentioned in the introduction, is the seventh woman that I documented last week.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so yeah, it was a particularly uh uh I don't like to use the word tragic because it's not a tragedy.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's uh very that violence is very much preventable, but it it was a particularly uh distressing week last week, and probably one of the worst weeks that I've had in the 10 years I've been um doing this.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: And well, thank you so much for that very sad update and much appreciated, and I'm sure that the work you do is quite confronting and overwhelming.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: And the fact that you talk about it being one of the most difficult weeks.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: Those seven women that you mentioned, um I'm assuming they were victims of crime based on what you're saying.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: Is that correct?
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, so I we had a number of domestic violence-related deaths, we had a number of stranger-related deaths, so those were the kind of context that we're we're talking about.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: Women in Australia are killed in three contexts.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: So the first is domestic and family violence.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, that accounts for about 60% of women killed, and that's um partners, former partners, and family members.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: Associate violence is the second most common context.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: Now we lose about 30% of women to associate violence, and what that means is these women are killed by people they know who are not related.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: So, for instance, by a neighbor or a colleague or a friend, and then around 10% of women are killed as a result of stranger violence.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: So someone they've never met or maybe met very briefly, but but generally have never they've never laid eyes on them.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: So, and obviously, in the case of Wardrobe Griffin, she is the victim of a stranger violence attack.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: Stranger violence attacks are exceedingly rare, but they do cause a lot of outrage because uh people feel, I think, that random attacks of violence, they see that as much worse than the domestic violence and the associate violence.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: So they they kind of have this feeling that the victim, to put it bluntly, wasn't asking for it, that she is somehow in air quotes innocent.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, every woman can be innocent, no woman deserves to be murdered, but it it the stranger violence killings do uh elicit a lot more sympathy and a lot more rage than um domestic violence killing and associate violence killing.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's interesting to me that that, well, first of all, that that's the case, but I understand why, because they're seen as sort of completely, as you say, inverted commas innocent, as all women are who are victims of this sort of violence.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: But it's interesting that how many of what you've just outlined are actually people that they know who are the perpetrators?
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so my research shows, for instance, uh in the last 15 and a half months, we've lost uh 126 women to unlockful acts, so acts of violence.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: Now, 96 of those women were allegedly killed by men.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, 90% of those women were allegedly killed by someone they knew.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: So the biggest common denominator here is if you're a woman, you're more likely to be killed by a man known to you than by a stranger.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's just extraordinary, really.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so so many of so the proportion of those, that 90%, is that is it often a spouse?
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: Uh no, it's not always a spouse.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: So um obviously intimate partner violence is one of the biggest, uh, that is the biggest ratio in domestic and family violence.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: But you have to remember that not every woman is killed by her partner or former partner.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: We had women killed by their dads, by their brothers, by their uncle.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: In some cases, we had women killed.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: Well, in a lot of cases, we have women killed by sons.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: That is a significant um context.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: So sons killing their mothers and grandsons killing their grandmothers.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: In very rare cases, but it definitely does happen.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: We had women killed by um a female in the family.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: More often than not, it will be a daughter killing a mother.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: So, and usually in those cases, interestingly, there's a mental health um uh concern there.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: So, but it is exceedingly rare.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: Now, when we talk about domestic and family violence, we need to also talk about the fact that domestic and family violence is not always a relative.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: So, for instance, if someone is killed by her housemate, she is killed as a result of domestic violence.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: So someone that she shares a domestic situation with.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um so we do, in fact, have housemate killings.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: Now, the thing is that Australian police rarely will um talk about those deaths as domestic violence.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: So when they put their media releases out, they almost if a if a woman is killed by someone that she's living with who's not a relative, they don't call it domestic violence.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: Starting to see a small change in that area.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: So we lost a woman in Western Australia this year.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: She was actually killed by her roommate at an aged care center.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: And that would be one of the first times I've seen a police force use the term domestic violence in relation to that situation.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so there is a small uh move towards kind of broadening the definition of domestic and family violence so that we as a community understand that it's more than just a familial relationship.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: Very interesting.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: You you mentioned the police, and obviously there's so much to talk around this because clearly it used to be.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I know somebody who actually worked in this area as a judge, and they said, you know, literally the police would get a call and they'd just say, Look, it's just a domestic, just stay out of it.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: That's what the approach used to be.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think there's any change in the way that these threats are being uh dealt with by the police in the lead up to, and often, as you know, as we discussed, they're random, but obviously, some in some instances there's a sort of a history of, you know, there's intervention orders that are not honored and all of that sort of context.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: What's your opinion about the way the police are dealing with this?
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: All right, so we we one of the biggest issues that we have with policing in Australia is the disparity in how police respond.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: So, for example, you might have a woman facing, and this is just uh I'm pulling just suburbs out of um the air here, just to give you an example.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: You might have a woman facing domestic violence in Toowomba, and they will go to the police, and someone at that station will be empathetic and sympathetic and do everything in their power to get them help.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: So to connect them, for instance, give it to Queensland with DB Connect and get the triage process started and really just go out of their way to make this woman feel like her story matters and her life matters.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: Then you might have a woman, same situation, on the Gold Coast, go on in and uh she's dismissed.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: And the police officer says, Well, what did you do?
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: What did you do to uh start this?
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: Or, you know, why don't you just move out?
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: Or, you know, so we when we have a disparity in responses, we can't possibly police uniformly.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: I think there are other big issues with policing.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: So we have the attitudes with individual police officers with how they deal with it.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: We have police often victim blaming women.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: So, in two instances in the last six months, two of the cases that I've documented, they were killed by their partner allegedly.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: And um, in these two particular cases, in different states, different police forces, different police officers, uh, the investigating officers put the blame back on them.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: One of the one was superintendent, and she said that basically if women just picked up the phone and asked for help, we would help them.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: In that situation, this woman had picked up the phone quite significant time before.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, she had an AVO on the guy.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: The guy was on the police radar as a high-profile domestic violence offender.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: Two months before her death, the courts canceled the AVO.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: She was killed two months later.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: This woman did everything right.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: And even still, she was blamed for her death.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: We had a very similar situation in the last couple of months where another woman was blamed for her death.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, basically the cops are saying, hey, if you don't come to us for help, we're not gonna help you.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: That is not helpful.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: So when you have uh senior police investigating um domestic violence deaths, and that's the message they're sending to people, not great.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: Women are not gonna go and look for help if that's the kind of attitude they're gonna go at the cop shop.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: Now, another interesting thing is I spent six months working at Triple Zero here in Victoria on the police line.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: So answering police emergency calls.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: And this is how this operates.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: If someone dials in and they say, My ex-partner's at the door and he's got a gun, police will be dispatched, dispatch priority one.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: They will be in their car within 90 seconds of that call landing.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: If someone calls in and says, My partner's standing across the road, um, there's a DBO, he shouldn't be here.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: That's a 15-minute triage.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: That will be like not, that's not a priority one.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: You could have a cop car around the corner, but they will not be sent.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: If a mother calls Victoria Police and says, Hey, I haven't heard from my daughter for two weeks, this is exceedingly unusual.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: I think her partners hurt her, those police may not attend for 24 hours.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: You see what the issue is?
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: Domestic violence is only a priority if it's only automatically triaged if there is a weapon involved or the person has hands on the victim.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: So there's an assault in progress.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: That is the only way that we can get cops dispatched.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's absolutely lose women.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: So we lost a woman up in the Northern Territory in the last 12 months.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: Neighbors called in, they heard screams, they called in, police did not attend for seven hours, she was dead.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: If they had called in, if they had been dispatched within the 90-second time frame or whatever it is there, likelihood she'd be still alive.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: So, what you're saying is that the actual coalface of this issue is we're not getting, let alone the justice system and the whole issue of the um implementation of AVOs, which we know.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there are so many stories that you read constantly, uh, you know, that that a woman separate to what you've just outlined, but so many women who have AVOs in place and the perpetrator just ignores it and she has to keep going back to court and going back to court and going back to court, and and it's not implemented.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: So, but at the coal face, this this issue of triple O, and I think this is really important.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: Is this something that is a cultural change within the police force, or do you think it's a legal change that needs to be?
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: Triple zero.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: So you need to understand that triple zero dispatches to police, okay?
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: So it's um civilians taking the calls, managing the calls, many and manning uh the dispatch system.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: They dispatch to police, and then a super um a sergeant or a superintendent will decide what's a priority and what's not.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: So the thing that we have to understand about violence against women, it is multifaceted.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: There are so many areas that we are falling down, you cannot even possibly write it all on a whiteboard.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, for everything that I talk about, for instance, for the triple zero situation.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: So we know that there's going to be multiple issues there with triple zero, multiple.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: But every issue within triple zero, there's 10 or 15 or 20 other issues just in one area outside of that.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: So we have um, for instance, people say to me, what about if the government gives more money to um support services?
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's great.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for sure.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: Let's give more money to support services.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: But if you don't have the staff to support those services, how are they going to triage?
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: If you don't have beds for women in crisis, where are they going to stay?
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: If an indigenous woman with disability is unable to access the refuge or doesn't want to leave country, where's she going to go?
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: What protections are there for her?
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: Every situation has unique barriers and uh unique problems, and we don't even cover that.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: We we our system just doesn't fit.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's like a jigsaw with a million different pieces missing or a million different shapes that you just can't get right.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: So coming back to that triple O issue, is there a domestic violence hotline?
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: Is there any if you if you're experiencing domestic violence, you have the option of calling triple zero and you should always call triple zero.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: Just call triple zero.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: I never say to people don't do that, right?
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: If you're not in immediate danger, then you're gonna call 1800 respect or the um the DV line in your state or territory.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: 1-800 respect will get you through to your DB um service in your state or territory.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: That's important.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: People know that.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: That's if you're experiencing domestic violence.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: So there are like, yes, triple zero is where you call.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: Definitely speak to police.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: You should speak to police.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: You need to speak to police.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: We need the police to be aware that you are in danger, that there is a risk.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: So triple zero for sure, definitely contacting 1-800 respect at the very least.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: And if you do contact 1-800 respect, then they will triage you.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: So they will connect you to the services you need.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: If you need women's legal service, they will send you down that pathway.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: If you need refuge, they will send you down that pathway.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: They'll try to find accommodation.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: So it's so triple zero and one-800 respect, most important numbers to call.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: What happens though, if you're experiencing violence and you're not in the domestic and family violence context, so your colleague is stalking you, definitely go to police.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: But we actually don't have a triage system for that.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: We don't have a triage system for women who experience associate violence, which is really worrying.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: If you don't have that triage system for them, how do you help them?
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: You can't.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: You literally cannot help them.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: The only option they have is police.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's interesting because, you know, as as I mentioned, I mean, there's so many stories of these stalkers who basically hound, and we've seen them all in the paper recently, hound these women for a hundred, you know, hundred different incidents.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: And even with the AVOs against, let's say, a stalker situation.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: What you're saying is that unless it's under direct threat, like even a breach of an AVO, you have to go back through the system in effect.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: If you're calling triple zero and you want to dispatch straight away, you essentially have to say this person has a weapon or is currently assaulting me, or is currently assaulting the person I'm looking at.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: That is the only way that you're going to get immediate dispatch.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: That's it.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not suggesting that people call triple zero online.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: What I'm saying is if you expect a 90-second response, it's not going to happen unless it's under those circumstances.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: Very, very, very scary, but also very important people understand the complexity of the issue.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, in terms of your involvement, obviously the work you do is to advocate and to educate.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: What do you see?
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: First of all, let's talk about how you got involved in this very tough but very important space.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so I'm a journalist.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: I've been a journalist for 28 years.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so there's two reasons I'm in this space.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: The first is um uh about 10 years ago, I was working on a series, a domestic uh anti-violence series, focusing on domestic violence for um the regional newspapers that I work for up in Queensland.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the things that editors kept saying to me was, we don't have room for these stories.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: No, not another story.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: People are bored, people don't want to read about this, it's none of our business, blah, blah, blah.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: So I started the Red Heart campaign to give um violent survivors a forum to tell their stories.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: That is essentially it.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: They would draw a red heart on their arm or whatever, send in their stories, and I would publish them.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: I started documenting femicides and child deaths um quite soon after that.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: Now, the main reason that I do it is because my stepfather killed two little girls, Stacy Ann Tracy and Sandra Dorothy Bacon.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the things that really frustrated me was that I knew their stories were going to be disappeared when their families went, you know, like when Stacey Ann's Stacey Ann is uh, she has one sister, and her mom and her grandma, they're all they're all alive, but her sister doesn't have any children.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: So when her sister and her mom and grandma die, that's where her story stops.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: It just no longer exists.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so I wanted to be able to document their deaths, and I really wanted to, you know, just kind of give something back for what my stepfather stole.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: He stole uh two young lives, he stole two futures, he destroyed two families.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: He has he left two families with a burden and a pain that they will never not feel.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, it was really important to just do something positive, uh the best I can, and that's why I do what I do.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: That's pretty powerful for you because so your stepfather, I'm assuming, was jailed accordingly.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: And yes, so he um he murdered Sandra Dorothy Bacon around 1961 or 62, went to jail for 22 years and he was paroled.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: He met my mother just after he uh was paroled, sometime after he was paroled, and my mother married him, they moved out to Roma, and that's where he uh abducted, raped, and murdered Stacey Andrecy.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I was a witness in his trial.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: He was convicted and he at the time was very rare, uh never to be released um sentence.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: He actually died, uh gosh, I think he died around 1997 or 1996.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: So about six or seven years after he killed Stacey Ann.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: That is just an extraordinary story.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, and the fact that your mother married him and also your own potential vulnerability in that situation.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, absolutely.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: But you know what?
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: The thing is that he didn't harm me, he didn't harm my sisters, he didn't harm my brothers.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: So it You know, what he did definitely impacts you for life.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like I live with that every day, and I I think about those girls every day.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: And everything I do in this space is really it's very much dedicated to them.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm not the one who carries the trauma of losing a child or a sister.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, you know, I uh I'm really lucky that I'm able that I have the professional skills to do this, that I, you know, am able to navigate this space successfully and carefully.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm really lucky because I get to work with some of the most brave people you could ever meet.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: Every family, every woman, and child that I've documented, every family that I've met are incredible.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: They are strong, they're snowy, they're determined to make change, and um, they just keep moving forward despite the odds.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: So, in terms of change, what is it that you're primarily advocating?
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, as you mentioned, it's a jigsaw puzzle, and I think that's a really good thing, you know, there's just so many pieces.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: But if you had to sort of highlight for our listeners what you'd like to see change and where we can action that change.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, the the thing is, my work is about um maintaining stories.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: Uh the Memorial to Women and Children Lost to Violence is an online database of stories of women and children killed.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not just there for the families, it's also there for policymakers, politicians, journalists, uh, frontline workers, sector um professionals, and really the community to go in and look through that database, read the stories, and understand the difficulties that women and children face.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: My ultimate goal is just for no for no woman or child to kill, for every woman and child to live in peace, to live a long life and to not be harmed.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: Now I don't uh delude myself.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think that this is going to happen in my lifetime, but every story I put on that memorial, every time I record a death, I know that I can't change her story, but her story can change the world, and that is the most important thing.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you know what?
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: If if that memorial still exists in 50 years or 100 years and it's making a difference, then that's all that matters.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: The other thing I'd say is it makes a difference in terms of women's safety.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: So a significant number of women say to me, if I hadn't have read about this person you wrote about, I wouldn't have left him and I could be uh injured or dead now.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like you literally saved my life.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so in a small way it works.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: I uh well, I'm a big, you know, we're documentarians basically.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: We both are journalists, and the fundamental notion of documenting, recording, and educating that's really what we do here at the podcast.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: And it's very much a similar thing because if people hear the story, then they can well, that's why I'm so happy to have you on board because I think you have a great insight and you're a specialist, inverted commas, in this very difficult area.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have you seen any change or transition in the time?
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, since really you began this process?
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: Have you seen anything?
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that Ryan.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: I wish I wish that I I looked.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: Do you want you know honestly?
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: I wish that I could say things are changing.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: The things that are changing is women are becoming more aware and making choices that are uh uh hopefully keeping them safe.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: So that that's the most positive change.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: In the last uh 15 and a half, 16 months, the femicide toll has climbed significantly.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: I saw that.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: I was looking at your stats.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's absolutely getting worse.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: Now, one of the things that happened around 16 months ago was we were seeing a lot more uh misogynistic and violent men being platformed in mainstream media.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: I was gonna ask you that.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, correct.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: The Andrew Tate and you know the access to the city.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: There's just a whole swather of them.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: There are so many names, so many men who were getting high position on things like Netflix and Spotify and YouTube and in mainstream media.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's interesting though, the impact, as you mentioned, of somebody like an Andrew Tate and that sort of access that a lot of these men have, and boys, let's talk about the you know, the young boys, the access.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: It used to be, you know, if there were people like that, you couldn't access it when you were 15.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: Now you can access everything.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, what the the problem here is with platforming these men, you're normalizing misogyny, you're normalizing violence against women.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: You're you are basically saying there are no consequences for these actions.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: That's what you're saying.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: And the more that people who are violent or uh likely to be violent see that there are no consequences, see these men heroized, the more likely they are to perpetrate.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's and just yeah, but also the accessibility through social media to these platforms is what you're saying, has accelerated.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, of course.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, once upon a time, you know, 20 or 30 years ago, say 30 years ago, when I I grew up, I was a kid in the 80s, um the biggest access to um anything bad that I would have had would have been through rage or you know, just yeah, we were and now it's like 24-7 in our pockets.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: There is there's so many reasons that we are seeing misogyny get worse, and misogyny underpins violence against women.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: It is very much linked.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: You cannot have one without the other.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: And if we just keep on platforming, if we keep on giving access to these people, to um people, and it's not just like I'm not just saying uh I'm not just talking about 10-year-olds or 13-year-olds here, I'm talking about 40-year-olds and 50-year-olds and 60-year-olds.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: You're reinforcing their bad attitude toward women.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: You're saying to them it's okay to bat your wife.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, they're trying out here trying to say no, it's not fucking okay, go sort shit out.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: And these guys, like Spotify, up until recently had Andrew Tate on it.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it's only been called because women petition to get rid of it, you know.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm sorry.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a change, but that shows, yeah, but that shows if we stand up, we speak up, there's an action of change that has happened.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: But to your point, you have a direct correlation between the increase, the escalation of that sort of uh of the violence stats.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: You see a complete link with the access to misogynists platforms every day.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm surrounded by this.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_00: I'm surrounded by violence against women.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: I, you know, I know about what the perpetrators, I know what they're doing, I know about their attitudes.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: This is literally what I do, and it has definitely been an incline, and there's been an incline um in platforming of these men.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying it is the only reason for the increase, but I am saying it is a significant reason, and there are other reasons as well, and there's probably 700 other reasons, but you know, as a journalist, as a person who has worked in the media all my life, it is it's clearly there.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: So is this a is this an issue of education, which I know you work also in that sphere?
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: Is it about going into the but you say it's not just the young men, it's the older men.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's about yeah, and I mean, look, it's not my thing to fix.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: I am not the problem here.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't have the solutions.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just a journalist with a social media platform and a website.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just a journo, I'm just a woman who gives a fuck about women and children's lives, right?
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: But your stats are very important because they show absolutely, you know, and they're there for anyone who wants to use them, they can access them.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: What I'm saying is women for all of our lives, for our grandmothers' lives and our great-grandmothers' lives, for as long as women have existed, we've been picking up the pieces of violence.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: We're the ones who've um saved our mates, we're the ones who've done protests, we've built refugees, we've built resources, we're out lobbying, we're doing all the stuff.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_00: You know what's not what is not happening or not happening fast enough and at nearly great enough a rate?
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: Men.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: Men are not happening.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: Men are standing back and making this a women's problem when most violence perpetrated in Australia is perpetrated by men.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: Male violence is not a woman's problem to solve, never has been, never will be.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: We just pick up the fucking pieces because we want our people safe.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's a men's problem, and they need to find the solution.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: And they don't need to come into my DMs and ask me for that solution because I don't have it.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not a man.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I totally hear you.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's a very important point because, and often, unfortunately, uh it's men who are running the decision-making platforms that actually need to change.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, we are trying to get it.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: How to fix it, and then we say, Well, what about if you do this, this, and this?
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_00: And then they do totally something else.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: They don't even listen to us.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, I mean, I am very happy to put this back on men because I I just don't have the answer.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: I am one person, you're one person, we're all one person.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: We all do our best, we all come together, we all grieve, and we all uh be angry, and we all do little things that try to make a difference, we all activate in a different way.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: And it's always us women having these conversations.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: It truly is.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, very true.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think exhausting.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think that that it is exhausting and it is very distressing.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, it's like I read, and this is actually what prompted me.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I was looking at your Instagram and I was thinking it's so powerful, it's so distressing, but it's so incredible what you do because it is hard, it's really tough to do that documentation all the time, and you've been immersed in it.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: But if you were to, I suppose, highlight three things that you would like to see change or actioned, what would they be?
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: The first thing, the absolute first thing that I would like to see change is men taking control of this situation.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: Then just stepping up and being a key part of the solution and being a solution.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: The second thing that I would change is I would just change media reporting around violence against women.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: I would, if I had the ability to, I would outlaw victim blaming, slot shaming, othering, erasing.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: We don't have to report, we don't media do not have to report on violence against women the way they do.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: People will consume their content regardless of the headlines they put on.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: So they need to stop that shit.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: And obviously, we would just have more money, better policy, and more services.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there there just aren't three things, it's too complex.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but I think at the end of the day, it's a man's problem to fix.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, and I hear you, and I think that's a very, very relevant point.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: And hopefully, um, I mean, I have a lot of male and female listeners, hopefully, there's some somebody out there who resonates.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: But as you say, it's a very slow and difficult change.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think the media reference is very important, what you've just said too, because the way we report it, the way it's it's sort of highlighted in the news is just another story.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: It needs to be treated differently.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I mean, I think that even that recent tragedy with the 19-year-old, initially the police responded by saying, well, you know, clearly it's just an incident, and they didn't think that.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it was so obvious to anyone reading that.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it wasn't an incident.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: Three days later, they find, you know, the perpetrator.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: That is bizarre to me and the way it was initially dealt with.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: So to your point, of course, absolutely.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: All the points you raise are very valid and very interesting.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_01: I just hope that we get some change and some action.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I just want to say, well done, you, for documenting and being immersing yourself in this very tough space.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: And hopefully, the next time we speak, and I hope we do again, and we stay in touch, and I'm happy to talk to you in an ongoing way about these issues and make sure that we platform it in our way, in a different way.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's really important.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_01: On that note, thank you so much for joining us at the What I've Learned podcast.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's been a tough chat, but also a very important one.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: No worries.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for having me and take care this afternoon.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you too.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_01: Cheers forks so much for listening.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_01: I'm blessed to have so many wonderful guests coming on the show.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_01: So check out my What I've Learned Instagram for updates.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_01: Meanwhile, stay tuned, kind, and curious.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: Love Dev.