Latest / How To Protect The Ocean / A Summer Internship, Thirty Years, and One Career for the Ages

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A Summer Internship, Thirty Years, and One Career for the Ages · How To Protect The Ocean

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  I want to take you on a journey.
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  This is of a career of a person who
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  actually lived this journey.
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  And I think it's incredible
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  and I want to share it with you.
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  I'm not going to name
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  the name of the person.
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  We're going to find out later on the week
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  because that is the
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  person I'm going to interview.
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  But this person started
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  off as a grad student.
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  They take a summer internship instead of
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  writing a term paper.
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  That's the choice term
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  paper or summer internship.
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  And obviously she took the internship,
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  gets assigned the sea turtle,
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  and ends up spending the next 30 years
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  deciding how the world is going to manage
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  ocean species and how human impacts
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  affect those ocean species.
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  It's quite the journey that I want to
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  share for you because this
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  is what we're going to do on
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  the How to Protect the Ocean podcast is
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  we're going to tell stories.
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  We're going to give you hope in the ocean
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  by showing you what
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  people are doing for the ocean.
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  And the goal really is here at How to
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  Protect the Ocean to
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  calm that ocean anxiety,
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  calm that climate anxiety into knowledge,
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  knowing what's happening with the ocean,
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  to empower you to go talk about it to
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  your family and friends.
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  To be honest, it
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  actually makes you feel better.
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  Studies are showing it makes you feel
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  better about the ocean to
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  have more knowledge and have
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  this as a resource for this podcast.
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  Not the study that looked at this
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  podcast, but a study said, hey, if you
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  talk more about the ocean
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  and you talk about the
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  people, it'll make you feel better.
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  Now don't combat and debate with people,
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  but talk about the
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  ocean and the two people who
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  want to know more about the ocean.
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  I hope that you can take the stories that
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  we tell on this
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  podcast and humble people,
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  and they will enjoy it just as much as
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  you did listening to
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  what I'm about to tell you.
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  So if you enjoy this type of information
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  and you want to share that information,
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  hit that follow button right now.
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  And of course, don't forget to share it
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  with somebody that you
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  think would do well with this
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  kind of information.
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  All right. So let's
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  talk about this person.
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  This person grew up in Michigan, went to
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  school in Ohio and
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  Indiana with no international
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  degree. Grew up in the US, straight up
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  US, knows what's in the US.
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  Grew up in anthropology
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  with anthropology degree.
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  In grad school, decided to
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  do public policy coursework.
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  It's a weird step to take.
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  Like you're in anthropology, you're going
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  to have to policy
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  because in anthropology,
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  looking at how humans
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  affect the environment.
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  So public policy is really how to manage
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  humans in and around the environment.
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  If you're looking at policy within the
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  environment, the chosen internship over
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  writing a term paper,
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  which to be honest, I get that you want
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  to experience, right?
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  If you ever have the chance to choose
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  between a paper, writing
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  a paper and going for an
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  internship, go for the internship.
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  Getting that valuable
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  experience is so, so important.
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  So the internship placed this person with
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  an NGO in Washington, DC.
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  It was then called the Center of Marine
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  Conservation, and then
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  this person was working
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  on sea turtles.
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  That's pretty cool to come out of
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  university or being in
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  university in grad school and being
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  able to work on sea turtles.
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  Just as an aside, that is
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  one of my favorite species.
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  That is a species that I would probably
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  study if I was studying a particular
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  species in research.
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  Sea turtles is where I would go.
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  They have a great community.
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  Sea turtles are really fascinating.
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  They need our help.
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  It's working with the
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  help that we've seen.
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  We've seen the green
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  sea turtles do better.
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  It's pretty cool, like
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  what we're able to see.
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  Now, the one thing that really got to
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  this person about sea turtles and what
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  really hooked them into
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  going further in this route, like into
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  oceans, was that they
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  realized that sea turtles,
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  they don't read maps.
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  They don't stay within borders.
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  They don't respect
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  any kind of boundaries.
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  When they go into the ocean, when they
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  are hatched and they
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  incubate in their sand sort
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  of den and they hatch and they get out
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  when they go into the ocean.
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  Now, if they survive getting to the
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  ocean, when they get to
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  the ocean, they start going
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  everywhere.
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  They don't just stay within, say, the
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  exclusive economic zone of
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  the US or Canada or Mexico
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  or anything like that,
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  any country like that.
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  They just go across borders.
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  And we know this because
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  we've tagged sea turtles before.
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  Dr. Wallace J.
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  Nichols, may he rest in
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  peace, was one of the first
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  people on a project tagged in a sea
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  turtle in Baja,
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  California, in Mexico, and it went
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  all the way to Japan.
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  That's how far the tag went.
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  That's how far the turtle went.
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  That's where they found the tag.
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  This is an old school tag too, not like a
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  tag that you can
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  actually watch as you go like
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  a satellite tag.
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  This is a tag like somebody found the
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  turtle with the tag and
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  then reported it back on
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  the listserv and they were able to say,
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  "Oh my gosh, it's in Japan."
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  Cool country, by the way.
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  So we know that these sea turtles go
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  very, very long distances.
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  And so knowing that where they don't
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  respect boundaries and
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  they migrate long distances
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  and they run into different gear,
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  different vessels
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  flagged to different countries.
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  They can get caught by whatever.
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  They can get hit by a boat.
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  They can get eaten by an animal.
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  They can get caught in fishing nets.
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  They can get caught in a
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  lot of different things.
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  So the question that became this person's
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  entire career is how do
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  you manage and protect
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  a species that
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  ignores every single border?
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  And the answer for that person was
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  international cooperation.
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  So that internship put her in the same
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  room as state
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  department staff and it can't
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  evolve from there.
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  It grew her, it really showed her the
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  light of where this
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  person could be most effective.
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  And I think the interesting thing is like
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  after that, working in
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  the state department,
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  working in the office of marine
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  conservation, looking at
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  international tuna negotiations
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  until 2012, then working at the
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  international sustainable seafood
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  foundation starting in
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  2014, like almost a 30 year total.
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  This is how we are looking at a career
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  that takes you all
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  these different places.
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  It's not just on sea
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  turtles at this point.
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  It's as this person starts working on
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  policy and starts working
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  with a variety of different
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  animals and a variety of different human
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  actions in the ocean.
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  The person realized that their career can
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  go much bigger and
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  should go much bigger in
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  order to protect these species that live
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  in this wonderful ocean.
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  And it's all connected.
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  And so you can't just manage within the
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  US easy economic exclusive zone.
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  You can't just do that in Canada's easy.
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  You can't do this in Mexico, you can't do
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  it in Europe or Britain or any of those.
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  The UK, you can't.
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  You have to understand that it requires
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  cooperation on an international level,
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  depending on where these animals go.
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  Countries can protect the animals that
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  are within their border.
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  They cannot protect animals that are
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  outside the border in
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  the high seas or elsewhere.
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  When you start to realize how this
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  connectedness works around the world, you
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  start to get like in
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  the mindset from a career perspective of
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  like, how can I make a difference?
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  How can I be involved with protecting a
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  species that goes over every border?
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  And that's what this person did.
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  This person went from
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  place to place to place.
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  It's quite fascinating in learning how
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  this person you learn on
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  Friday, how this person
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  started being involved on major
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  negotiations from negotiating in the UN
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  General Assembly with
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  deep sea trawling.
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  So going into working with the UN General
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  Assembly on working on
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  managing deep sea trawling and
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  looking at how the effect of deep sea
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  trawling affected the
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  bottom and how it affected these
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  coral habitats that are
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  like thousands of years old.
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  And if they go one pass of a trawl,
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  bottom trawl can destroy
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  that area or that section
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  for quite a long time or that pass
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  through, whatever the
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  width of that net is.
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  And this person is
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  part of that negotiation.
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  That is part of
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  international fisheries negotiations.
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  They're part of like seafood
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  sustainability negotiations and policy.
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  Part of the high seas treaty is in the
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  room when the high seas
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  treaty was agreed upon.
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  When that gavel hit down and you saw
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  everybody become emotional
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  because it was 20 years of
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  blood, sweat and tears that
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  went into that negotiation.
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  And the battles, the little battle that
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  happened within these
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  negotiations is what shapes the
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  final products that
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  might change in the future.
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  But that's the product
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  that people agreed upon.
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  That becomes the
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  regulation that the world agrees on.
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  Imagine being in a room with delegates
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  from all around the
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  world, over 150 countries,
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  and you are
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  negotiating to protect a species.
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  You are speaking up for species, for
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  habitats, for the ocean.
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  You are there advocating for the ocean,
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  but you're also
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  advocating for the country that
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  you're representing when you're there or
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  the organization that
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  you're representing.
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  A lot of the NGOs are representing the
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  environment, the ocean habitats.
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  All that negotiation, there's compromise
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  that has to be made.
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  And you have to get like a base agreement
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  for the information that
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  is in those regulations
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  or in that policy that will shape the
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  policy for another 10,
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  20, 30 years until it gets
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  small amendments as it gets made through.
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  It is incredibly difficult thing to do,
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  especially when it comes down the ocean.
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  Every country has their own agenda and
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  they want to be heard
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  and they want to felt like
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  they were heard.
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  Every indigenous group that are part of
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  those countries want to
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  be heard and they need to
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  be heard.
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  And then you can't just ignore one and
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  expect them to like one
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  country or one indigenous
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  group and then put a policy through and
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  expect them to vote yes on it.
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  So imagine having to please over a
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  hundred people that
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  represents millions, if not billions
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  of people around the world.
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  And you have to make
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  sure that you can do it.
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  So it's almost like this,
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  everybody's in the tent.
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  You've got to keep staying the one tent,
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  stay that base tent, and
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  then you can go off and
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  do other things later on.
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  But it has to be in that one area that
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  everybody agrees and
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  everybody's okay with.
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  They're not all happy, but they're okay.
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  We're like, you know what?
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  We're looking at this policy as it stands
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  and we're going forward.
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  We're moving forward.
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  And it doesn't necessarily mean that
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  these international
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  agreements are for one ocean.
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  Like it's all every ocean.
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  They could be for smaller management
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  areas around the world.
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  I mean small, I'm still talking about
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  millions of square kilometers.
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  But as the world gets divided up into
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  these management areas,
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  there's policies that go
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  and various countries that are a part of
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  that, that make up that
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  management area because
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  of geography or because of interest.
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  And so there's a set of rules around each
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  of those management
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  areas where you can say,
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  "Hey, this matters.
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  This matters to us and we want to make
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  sure that we are heard.
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  We want to make sure that we can still
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  function within this
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  and we are happy with it."
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  It could be just based.
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  Not everybody's going to be happy, but
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  they could work with the negotiations.
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  They can work with what's living there,
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  the living document.
• 1:10:17
  And so imagine you
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  start off as an intern.
• 1:10:20
  Because as a student, as a grad student,
• 1:10:21
  you're given a paper or an intern.
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  You get assigned, you're an anthropology
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  graduate, but you get
• 1:10:26
  assigned, I mean the public policy
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  program that you're in,
• 1:10:28
  you get assigned sea turtles.
• 1:10:30
  So you start looking at sea turtles.
• 1:10:31
  You realize quickly that sea turtles
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  don't follow borders.
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  They go all over the place.
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  So how do you manage, like from policy
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  perspective, how do you
• 1:10:38
  manage those sea turtles if they
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  start to go everywhere?
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  You got to have
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  international cooperation.
• 1:10:43
  You have to have these
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  different management areas.
• 1:10:46
  You have to be able to negotiate with
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  multiple countries at a time
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  and really be there for the
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  animals, but also be there for your own
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  country and other countries
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  to ensure that they are happy
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  with the outcome.
• 1:10:57
  This is not just a story about a career
• 1:10:59
  and how it develops.
• 1:11:00
  I mean, that's part of the journey.
• 1:11:02
  A lot of people that I talked to asked,
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  "Hey, Andrew, my
• 1:11:05
  daughter's in high school.
• 1:11:06
  My son's in high school.
• 1:11:07
  My child's in high school.
• 1:11:08
  How do they become a marine biologist?"
• 1:11:11
  And I tell them, like,
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  "What do they want to study?"
• 1:11:13
  What's their interest?
• 1:11:15
  Trying to get them to niche down.
• 1:11:16
  And they want to know
• 1:11:17
  what the next step is.
• 1:11:18
  They want to know how to grow.
• 1:11:19
  They want to know what kind of job to do
• 1:11:20
  and everything like this.
• 1:11:21
  And a lot of the times when you look at
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  your idea, like an idea
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  of a career, and you just
• 1:11:27
  look at what's available to you, just
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  like this person in the
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  story did, they went from
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  graduate student, internship, public
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  policy, international negotiations.
• 1:11:37
  They followed their passion
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  and what was important to them.
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  So I think sometimes when we talk about
• 1:11:42
  careers, we get involved in
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  the career and growing within
• 1:11:46
  that career.
• 1:11:46
  And we kind of have these blinders to
• 1:11:48
  everything else that's
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  around us and shut the door on any
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  other opportunities that we may or may
• 1:11:53
  not love in the future.
• 1:11:54
  As a marine biologist that started off as
• 1:11:57
  a marine biologist and
• 1:11:57
  wanted to do research,
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  now I'm an ocean communications manager
• 1:12:00
  for a consulting firm
• 1:12:01
  that has the ability to scale
• 1:12:03
  my impact by working with a number of
• 1:12:05
  different clients on
• 1:12:06
  having positive ocean impact.
• 1:12:08
  That is a big change
• 1:12:09
  throughout my career.
• 1:12:10
  And the career wasn't a straight line.
• 1:12:12
  It just wasn't from one
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  opportunity to another to another.
• 1:12:14
  I had to create my own opportunities.
• 1:12:16
  But I did that by following what I loved,
• 1:12:18
  by realizing what I
• 1:12:19
  loved and getting out of my
• 1:12:21
  own way in terms of
• 1:12:22
  like, I need to do this.
• 1:12:23
  The only thing I was stubborn about is I
• 1:12:25
  need to do something for the ocean.
• 1:12:26
  That is my mission.
• 1:12:28
  And then as I went through, there were
• 1:12:29
  certain likes and dislikes that I have.
• 1:12:31
  And communication won out.
• 1:12:33
  And here I am at the age of 47 with a
• 1:12:35
  full-time job working as
• 1:12:37
  an ocean communications
• 1:12:38
  manager.
• 1:12:38
  The person who went from an internship to
• 1:12:41
  looking at sea
• 1:12:42
  turtles and public policy to
• 1:12:43
  going to a state
• 1:12:44
  department, then going international.
• 1:12:46
  Now that person is in a place where
• 1:12:48
  they're working on major
• 1:12:49
  international agreements.
• 1:12:51
  And now that person's ended up working
• 1:12:52
  with TUNA and looking at
• 1:12:54
  agreements with TUNA and seafood.
• 1:12:56
  Everybody has their own path.
• 1:12:57
  One of the points of the story is don't
• 1:12:59
  just pigeonhole yourself into one area.
• 1:13:02
  Be open to the different areas that you
• 1:13:03
  may or may not fall in
• 1:13:04
  love with as you grow older,
• 1:13:06
  as you evolve as a marine biologist, as a
• 1:13:09
  researcher, as a
• 1:13:11
  conservationist, as a public
• 1:13:13
  policy person, as a politician.
• 1:13:15
  You may end up in any of those categories
• 1:13:17
  depending on what you
• 1:13:17
  feel is important at
• 1:13:19
  that point.
• 1:13:19
  At one point in my career, I looked at
• 1:13:21
  what I was doing as
• 1:13:22
  working with government, as
• 1:13:23
  working with nonprofits, as working with
• 1:13:24
  environmental consulting.
• 1:13:26
  And I finally said to myself, like the
• 1:13:27
  one thing that is really
• 1:13:28
  missing to me in conservation is
• 1:13:30
  the fact that the public, the people who
• 1:13:32
  are outside that are not
• 1:13:34
  being talked to about the
• 1:13:35
  ocean on a regular basis are the biggest
• 1:13:37
  gap that exists in ocean conservation.
• 1:13:40
  And so I decided to start some sort of
• 1:13:42
  communication, end up being a podcast
• 1:13:43
  after a couple of trials,
• 1:13:45
  as you know, that ends up being my path
• 1:13:47
  because that's what I feel is important.
• 1:13:49
  And there are a lot of other people who
• 1:13:50
  go different routes and
• 1:13:51
  that's great because we
• 1:13:52
  need the help in any way we can get.
• 1:13:54
  But the whole point is this career in
• 1:13:56
  this story, this person
• 1:13:57
  found it by looking at what
• 1:13:59
  was available to her
• 1:14:01
  and then followed it.
• 1:14:02
  And we're going to be speaking to that
• 1:14:03
  person on Wednesday and
• 1:14:04
  we're going to be discussing some
• 1:14:05
  of the things that this person was a part
• 1:14:06
  of over the next couple of days.
• 1:14:08
  And I think that's important.
• 1:14:09
  We're going to talk tomorrow about how
• 1:14:11
  corals is almost as old as
• 1:14:12
  pyramids and the fight to save
• 1:14:13
  them. That's going to be tomorrow's
• 1:14:15
  episode. On Wednesday's
• 1:14:17
  episode, we're going to be talking
• 1:14:18
  about the high seas treaty and how that
• 1:14:20
  gavel that dropped made
• 1:14:22
  people weep and become emotional in
• 1:14:25
  the room because of all the work that
• 1:14:26
  they did and how important
• 1:14:28
  policy is to the high seas.
• 1:14:30
  And then on Thursday, we're going to be
• 1:14:31
  talking about the seafood
• 1:14:34
  policy and how seafood and how
• 1:14:36
  consumer driven markets really show what
• 1:14:40
  retailers need to know about what the
• 1:14:42
  public wants in terms
• 1:14:43
  of their seafood being sustainable. And
• 1:14:45
  then on Friday, we have an
• 1:14:46
  interview with the person I
• 1:14:47
  talked about today. I'm not going to
• 1:14:49
  reveal that person's name. I gave some
• 1:14:50
  clues as we went along,
• 1:14:52
  but we're going to be talking to that
• 1:14:53
  person on Friday about
• 1:14:55
  the policy and about Tuna.
• 1:14:57
  And it's going to be a lot of fun.
• 1:14:58
  So that's it for today's episode. I hope
• 1:15:01
  you enjoyed the story
• 1:15:02
  about careers. I mean,
• 1:15:03
  it fits people who ask me about careers
• 1:15:05
  all the time, but it also
• 1:15:06
  fits the people who want to
• 1:15:08
  know what it's like to be in public
• 1:15:09
  policy and to have that kind of
• 1:15:11
  information. So I'd love to hear
• 1:15:12
  your thoughts on this podcast. And of
• 1:15:14
  course, I'd love to hear any
• 1:15:15
  kind of questions you have,
• 1:15:16
  any kind of subject materials that you
• 1:15:17
  want me to hear about. You
• 1:15:19
  can also check out Ocean Decoded
• 1:15:20
  Live where I go live every weekday,
• 1:15:22
  Monday to Thursday at 4pm
• 1:15:24
  Eastern between 4 and 6pm Eastern,
• 1:15:25
  depending on my day. We cover all the
• 1:15:27
  latest news that's happening
• 1:15:28
  in the ocean and some of the
• 1:15:30
  stuff that's on here as well, but you'll
• 1:15:31
  get a lot of new stuff and some visuals
• 1:15:33
  and stuff like that.
• 1:15:34
  It's a lot of fun. But anyway, that's it
• 1:15:35
  for today's episode. I
• 1:15:36
  really appreciate you listening.
• 1:15:38
  If you haven't done so yet, follow this
• 1:15:40
  podcast so you don't miss
• 1:15:41
  any of the rest of the week's
• 1:15:43
  episodes. And of course, five days a
• 1:15:44
  week, Monday to Friday, that's when we
• 1:15:45
  post. And I want to thank
• 1:15:47
  you so much for joining me on today's
• 1:15:49
  episode of the How to Protect the Ocean
• 1:15:50
  podcast. Have a great
• 1:15:51
  day. We'll talk to you next
• 1:15:52
  time and happy conservation.