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“Norway, if you’re listening.” · Pod Save America

• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: I'm Dan Pfeiffer.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: Later in the pod, you'll hear the conversation that Congresswoman
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: Ilhan Omar had with Annamarie Cox during last Friday's Pod
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: Save America in Minneapolis. Before all that, we've got a
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: lot of news to talk about, from the president saying
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: he'd accept foreign assistance to win in 2020, to his
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: feud with Joe Biden, to a couple of big speeches
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: delivered by Pete Buttigieg and Bernie Sanders. You should also
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: check out this week's episode of Pod Save the World,
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: where Tommy and Ben dig into Mayor Pete's speech, all
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: the foreign policy there, and also talked about the huge
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: protests in Hong Kong and Russia. On Friday, we'll release
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: Tommy's interview with Andrew Yang as a bonus Pod Save America.
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: Yang was here at Cricket headquarters the other day. And
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: big news about our Los Angeles show at the Greek
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: Theater on August 17th. We'll be joined by Emmy Award-winning
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: journalist Jamel Hill. There will be special performances by Amanda Seals,
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: Best Coast, and Jim James. And proceeds from the show
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: will be donated to four organizations that are protecting your
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: right to vote. Vote.org, Election Protection, the National Redistricting Foundation,
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: and Think Social Impact. So... Go get your tickets now
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: at crooked.com slash the Greek. It's going to be a
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: great show in August. All right, let's get to the news.
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: On Wednesday, the President of the United States made it
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: clear that he will gladly collude with foreign governments if
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: they're willing to help him win the 2020 election. When
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: Trump was asked by George Stephanopoulos whether his campaign would
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: accept damaging information on his 2020 opponent from countries like
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: China or Russia, he said the following, quote, I think
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: you might want to listen. There isn't anything wrong with listening.
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: If somebody called from Norway and said, we have information
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: on your opponent, oh, I think I'd want to hear it.
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: And when Stephanopoulos reminded Trump that FBI Director Chris Wray
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: said that anyone in possession of such information should alert
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: the FBI, Trump said, quote, the FBI director is wrong. Dan,
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: what are the implications of what Trump is saying here?
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: I think we ought to put this in perspective first,
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: which is, you know, the people who commit crimes take
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: selfies of themselves committing crimes, and then post those selfies
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: on the internet and then wonder why they're in police custody.
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: That's what this is. This is the President of the
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: United States promising to commit a crime, saying that if
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: I have given the opportunity to commit a crime and
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: accepting anything of value, whether it's money or information from
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: a foreign source, is a crime. And the President said
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: that he would commit a crime and he would not
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: tell the FBI about it.
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: It's also... I know this is weird to say, but
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: it's more than a crime. I mean, the president is
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: willing to betray the country he took an oath to
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: protect and betray the Constitution, betray his oath of office
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: in order to win an election. Because everything comes back
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: to Donald Trump, who will do whatever it takes to win,
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: whatever it takes to enrich himself, whatever it takes to
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: make it all about Trump. He will do anything. He
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: will commit crimes. He will betray his country. He doesn't
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: give a shit. And look, by saying this publicly... By
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: doing this out in the open, Kendall Indian at NBC tweeted,
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: Trump is essentially inviting foreign intelligence services to spy on
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: his political adversaries and send him information. If you were
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: the Chinese government, if you were the Russian government, if
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: you were any other government out there that wishes us harm,
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: why wouldn't you take Trump's statement as a green light
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: to use your spy services to hack into more Democrats' emails,
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: to spy on us, to do whatever it takes to
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: steal more information? and fuck with our next election. Why
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: wouldn't you do that? Because you know the President of
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: the United States said he is willing to receive that information.
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: That's right. Trump is an incredibly transactional human. His very
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: close relationship with Saudi Arabia isn't just based on whatever
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: financial interest he has in Saudi Arabia. It's also based
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: on the fact that they projected an image of him
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: on a building when he went there and he was
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: flattered by it. Countries are getting federal benefits and favorable
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: policy decisions because they are spending money at Trump hotels,
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: because they say nice things about him. And so obviously,
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: if you want to curry favor with Trump, what better
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: way to do it than help him get reelected? It
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: is a tiny investment with a huge payoff for any
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: country who has a real stake in Trump being president
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: over a Democrat come 2021.
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: I mean, the president of the United States is a
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: serious national security threat to the country. That's where we
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: are right now. It's not a fucking exaggeration.
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: He is a national security threat and one of the
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: world's dumbest criminals.
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: I mean, question for you. If you were working for
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: a Democratic presidential candidate right now, would you say or
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: do anything in response to this aside from what many
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: of them did last night, which is tweet out, you know,
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: reiterate their calls for impeachment via tweet or statement?
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: I mean, if I haven't done it already, I would
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: put two-factor authentication on all of my phones and get
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: all of my staff to start using Signal or other
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: encrypted apps because the threat is coming.
• 5:25
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: There's not much else you can do other than, I think,
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: what these candidates did. I do think that there is
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: something more important than the tweet of the moment or
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: the statement of the moment about this. It is to
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: use this as an opportunity to tell a bigger story
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: about just how dangerous a moment we were in in
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: American democracy. And that is a story that I'm not
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: sure any candidate has yet hit on that, that covers,
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: that encompasses the gravity of the moment, the stakes for
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: our country and what could happen going forward if Trump
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: were to win. And I think that this is as
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: good a reason to tell that story as there is.
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: And I hope candidates do that.
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, I, for some reason I started thinking
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: about this last night, like if this was, if this
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: was 08 and this was happening, um, And I feel
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: like we all would have gotten on a call last night.
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: And then today, Obama might have gone out and given
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: a speech or at least, you know, a topper on
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: a speech or an insert in a speech where he
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: sort of laid out, you know, it's not just about
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: impeaching Trump at this point. It is about the fact
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: that the president of the United States is a national
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: security threat, that we now cannot be sure that we
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: will have fair and free elections in 2020 because the
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: president has refused to defend our electoral system. And Mitch McConnell,
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: by the way, has blocked every single piece of bipartisan
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: election security legislation that has come through the Senate right now.
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: And if I was one of the candidates running for
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: president who was a senator who had some power, I
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: would do whatever it took. And I would call up
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: Chuck Schumer and say, like, let's shut the Senate down
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: until we pass some election security bills. Or I don't
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: know if they can shut it down, but let's make
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: a big deal of this. You know, it's sort of
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: It's one of these moments where, you know, we can
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: all flip out on Twitter about it. We can all say,
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: I'm going to impeach him, impeach him, which, you know,
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: we're going to get to. But there's something bigger at
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: stake here, which is the sanctity of our elections. And
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: I do think that probably matters to the American people
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: even more than this debate over impeachment.
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: And you're correct that it is the sanctity of this
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: specific election. And that is obviously incredibly critical. We've had
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: one election interfered with in our very recent past. But
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: I think there's even something bigger than that. It is
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: about more than one specific threat to an upcoming election.
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: It is an idea that the President of the United
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: States can go on national television, invite foreign countries and
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: other outside players to interfere in our elections, to essentially
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: suggest that he is open for business, for criminal conduct,
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: and that there is no accountability for that. If that
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: is to be rewarded, By the voters, either on the
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: level or not on the level, depending on if we
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: can protect our elections. But if that is to be
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: rewarded and that is allowed to continue, that is a
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: setback to American democracy that we may not come back from.
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: How our government operates, how our country thinks of itself,
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: as imperfect as it has been in its history, is
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: something that will forever be different. That is what is
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: at stake in this election. And I think that that is...
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: All these individual things that we talk about here, whether
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: it's what Trump said, what Mitch McConnell is doing, what
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: we're going to talk about in the census in a minute,
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: are proof points for a larger threat that extends well
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: beyond this election. And that would, I think, be the
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: message that will come out of the hypothetical call that
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: we would have if this were the 08 campaign. And
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: that is the story that I think the candidate who
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: can weave all this in together into a broader story
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: that's about more than just Donald Trump, but it's about
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: this moment of danger in American democracy is, I think,
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: the candidate who has the best chance of succeeding.
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And it's about the fact that democracy is at
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: stake right now, that nothing less than our democracy is
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: at stake in all the ways it is. And you
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: see a couple of different candidates sort of dancing around this.
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: I mean, we're going to talk about Bernie's speech. He
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: kind of gets there from the economic standpoint, as does
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: Elizabeth Warren. You heard Joe Biden talk about it in
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: Iowa when he said the president's a national security threat.
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: You hear Beto O'Rourke talk about it all the time.
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: when he says, you know, we're going to lose our
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: democracy if we don't impeach him. But none of them
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: have really sort of put all of the puzzle pieces
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: together into one argument about how, you know, under Donald Trump,
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: our foreign policy, our democracy, everything is up for sale
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: and up for grabs because if you flatter Donald Trump,
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: if it means that Donald Trump can win something, if
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: it means that Donald Trump can get richer, then it happens.
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: If it doesn't, then fuck you, right? like every it's
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: he again he ran on an America first policy and
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: really it's Trump first and everyone else last that's that
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: seems to be the message and it's you know I
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: think it could be a powerful message and also like
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: the moment we're in is very dangerous and people should
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: call that out should this move more Democratic House members
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: towards impeachment.
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: It should But I mean, if the evidence is what
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: was going to be the factor that moved Democrats to impeachment,
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: there would be impeachment inquiries right now. There is more
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: than enough evidence. There are crimes and corruption and abuses
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: of power. There are crimes and misdemeanors high and low
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: all over the place that are a very obvious, very
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: credible pretext for an impeachment inquiry. So I don't know.
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: that another piece of evidence is going to move us there.
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: I watched Nancy Pelosi's press conference that she did just
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: a few minutes ago, and she seemed no closer to
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: impeachment than she was last week or the week before that.
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: You would think there'd be some movement, but we have
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: an entire 400-page report, which is essentially an impeachment inquiry
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: wrapped in a bow, and that hasn't moved House Democrats
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: in the right direction yet. So color me skeptical.
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, look, I saw our friend Neera Tanden
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: on Twitter last night saying, you know, don't yell at
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: Pelosi about this. Impeachment is not about removing Trump for office.
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: It's not going to stop this. It's not going to
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: stop him from accepting foreign information in 2020. And she's
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: right about that. But I also think that this is
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: a moment when we have to do everything we can
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: do and use every tool that we have and sort of, again,
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: focus the country's attention on just what this president, not
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: just what this president did in the past and the
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: crimes he committed in the past, but what he may
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: do in the future. And I think impeachment is sort
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: of the last best tool we have to do that
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: right now. And I also think that, look, the strategy
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: of conducting a whole bunch of investigations and oversight of
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump, I understand that strategy. I understood it when
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: Nancy Pelosi first started that strategy. I disagreed with it,
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: but I understood where she was coming from. That strategy
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: has failed. It's been a couple months now. It has failed.
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: They had a hearing earlier this week. They had John
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: Dean at the hearing, you know, former Nixon counsel. They
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: had a couple other federal prosecutors who believed that, you know,
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump should be impeached. All people who've, by the way,
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: been saying this for a long time on cable news,
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: so it was like nothing new there, didn't get that
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: much attention. The Democrats keep thinking when they win these
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: court victories here and there that that's somehow moving the
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: process forward. But again, this isn't about the process. This
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: is about sort of the communication strategy. And it's about
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: sort of who's owning the message here and who's taking
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: up all the oxygen, the media oxygen. And there's no
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: message getting through from the Democrats right now. There's no
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: message on either why the president United States is unfit
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: for office and should be impeached or a message on
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: health care and all the other issues the Democrats say
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: they want to focus on. So right now we're getting
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: the worst of all worlds. Like, I just don't see
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: that the strategy is bearing fruit in any way, do you?
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: No, it is not. You're right. The alternative approach that
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: Pelosi and the Democratic leadership offered after the Mueller report
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: came out was, on paper, a credible alternative approach. You
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: don't have to agree with it, but an idea of
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: a long series of high-profile hearings would get a lot
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: of attention as a potential pretext to impeachment inquiry was credible.
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: But that has not happened. That cannot happen. That is
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: not going to happen. And therefore, we are living in
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: a world where the press coverage is about why Democrats
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: are afraid to impeach Trump and Bill Barr, Lindsey Graham,
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: and Donald Trump running an aggressive act of public investigation
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: to try to discredit the Mueller investigation. And so there
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: is no argument that the Democrats are making that's consistent.
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: And that argument is not getting through. So The only
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: options here, in my view, are we have to either
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: begin impeachment inquiries and have that argument on a wide
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: array of issues, as we have talked about, that go
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: above and beyond what was ensconced in the Mueller report,
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: or move on. Because having a debate about impeachment every
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: day is the worst of all worlds. It is the
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: exact world the Republicans were in in 1998 with Bill
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: Clinton when they got their asses handed to them in
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: the election, is that they had voted to launch an
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: impeachment inquiry, held no hearings, delivered no message, made no argument,
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: and then got destroyed in the polls, and Bill Clinton's
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: approval rating ended up going up to like 73. And
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: so now, if there are voters who are upset at
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: the mere idea of impeachment, we've put that on the table,
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: but if there are voters who could be persuaded by
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: the evidence that would be unveiled in an impeachment inquiry,
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: that is not happening, and those voters will not be persuaded.
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: So the whole thing is stupid and frustrating. And the
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: pressure mounts every day only in the sense that Trump
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: gives you more ammunition to the pro-impeachment side of this
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: argument every time he opens his mouth.
• 15:10
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: And look, and the polls bear this out too. I mean,
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: there was a new poll out yesterday that said 44%
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: of the American people are now in favor of impeachment,
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: but only 30% believe that impeachment proceedings should begin. So
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: the 44% think he deserves impeachment, and 32% believe that
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: impeachment hearings should begin. Among Democrats, 85% of Democrats believe
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: that Donald Trump deserves to be impeached. 60%, 62% believe
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: that impeachment predeceasing should begin. That gap right there is
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: the fucking Democratic consultant gap. As everyone is a pundit now, right?
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: Where people believe the president should be... Someone made this point,
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: I think Adam Jentleson made this point on Twitter yesterday,
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: Harry Reid's former W chief of staff, that... You cannot
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: find one Democratic member of Congress right now who believes
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: that Donald Trump should not be impeached. Every single one
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: of them are unanimous in believing that Donald Trump should
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: be impeached. And yet they are all too afraid to
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: actually vote to begin impeachment proceedings because they don't want
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: to do the hard work of going back to their
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: districts and convincing their voters... convincing the people that they
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: represent that even if you're not with us on impeachment,
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: even if you think that this proceeding is a bad idea,
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: it's the right thing to do. It's a good idea,
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: and I'm willing to make the case for it. They're
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: just not willing to do that. But I agree with you.
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: If they're not willing to do that, then just tell us.
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: You know what? Get up at a fucking press conference
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: and say, we all believe that this president deserves to
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: be impeached, but we are too afraid to do it
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: because we looked at the polls and we don't think
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: you agree with it, so we're all moving on. Just
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: say that. I'd at least respect that.
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: There is a truism in politics that you can never
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: win an argument when you're arguing against the thing you believe.
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: And so if the Democratic position is we believe Donald
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: Trump should be impeached, but we're going to try to
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: convince the people that he shouldn't be impeached, you're going
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: to lose that argument. There is no moral or rhetorical
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: or political force behind that argument. And that is where
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: they are. And it's essentially a strategic decision to decide
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: to live in the worst of all worlds.
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's bad. Let's talk more about how the
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: Democrat strategy of investigating instead of impeaching is working. On Wednesday,
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: the House Judiciary Committee voted to hold Attorney General William
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: Barr and Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross in contempt of Congress.
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: The vote came after the president invoked executive privilege to
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: block the disclosure of documents and information relevant to the
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: Trump administration's decision to add a question about citizenship to
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: next year's census. One clue about their reasoning for why
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: they added this question. came from evidence found on the
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: computer of a recently deceased Republican strategist who suggested that
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: rigging the census with a citizenship question could, quote, be
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: advantageous to Republicans and non-Hispanic whites. The Supreme Court will
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: be deciding on the legality of the question this month. Dan,
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: you talked to Ari Berman of Mother Jones about this
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: on the pod a few weeks ago. Can you remind
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: us why a citizenship question would be advantageous to Republicans
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: and non-Hispanic whites? And talk about why in general this
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: is such a big deal.
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: So the census is used to do many things, but
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: it is designed to help us decide where people live
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: so we can therefore allocate political power proportional to the population.
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: So the census results, which happen every 10 years, are
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: used to decide how many electoral votes every state has,
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: how many congressional seats those states have, how the power,
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: how the congressional seats and the state legislative seats are
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: allocated within those states. And so therefore, it is critically
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: important that it be accurate. And the census itself estimates
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: that there would be a 6% undercount if this question
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: is added. And that's because a lot of people who
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: will decide not to respond to the census, particularly in
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: communities of color, where people have very legitimate fears about
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: how that information would be used against them with this president.
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: And so what that means is that communities of color,
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: which are traditionally democratically will be, will receive, will be
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: undercounted and therefore receive less political power. And that is a,
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: and if that were to happen, that means that our
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: government will be operating based on a false premise for
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: a decade. There is not, there's not any easy or
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: obvious way to fix this. If this is allowed to happen,
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: this is very specifically designed as, as indicated in these, uh,
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: documents that were found on this Republican's computer that say that, obviously,
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: if communities of color do not respond at the right rate,
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: then they will have less political power, and that will
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: shift the political power in favor of more white and
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: traditionally Republican areas.
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, and let's talk about what this is
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: really about, too. This is about counting undocumented immigrants as
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: part of the census, which the census is supposed to
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: be a count of all persons in the United States.
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: There is a reason that undocumented immigrants are part of
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: that is because they are human beings and people in
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: this country who pay taxes, who own homes, who work, right?
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: Like we need a count of all the people in
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: this country. It's not saying that, you know, they should
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: have voting rights if they're undocumented, but they need to
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: be counted as people because by the way, they live
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: in communities with other people with, with American citizens too.
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: And if those communities, um, aren't counted correctly, then those
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: communities filled with, uh, Immigrants, undocumented immigrants, American citizens, whoever,
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: will have less political power in this country. They will
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: have less federal resources in this country. And so, you know,
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: the communities that will be undercounted, the states where they
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: will be undercounting are states with large minority populations like California, Texas,
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: New Mexico, Nevada, Georgia, New York, Florida. They think those
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: are the states that would be most undercounted, those states
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: will lose federal resources. They will lose representation in Congress.
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: They will lose electoral power. The Republicans know this. They
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: know that those are not traditionally, most of them, Republican states.
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: And so they are happy to sap those states of
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: political power and federal resources. If you live in one
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: of those states or you live in a community that
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: is diverse, you could be affected here. It's a very,
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: very big deal.
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: And there's a very specific point you said about federal resources,
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: which I think is important, which is the overall population
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: per community is how a lot of federal funding is allocated.
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: It's allocated by population. So if a population has, you know,
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: if a community has 1 million people, it will get
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: X federal dollars for education or health care or homeland security.
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: And if it has 2 million people, it'll get 2X
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: the funding. And so if that number is wrong, then
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: that is going to affect, as you point out, will
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: affect everyone in that community. So just be very specific.
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: This is about more than just who gets to vote.
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: It is about how much... about the education, health care,
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: and welfare of the entire community, not just the non-citizens
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: in that community, which includes a large number of people
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: who are here completely legally with the permission and understanding
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: of the federal government.
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: That's exactly correct. Yeah, these are not like all undocumented
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: immigrants in the shadows. These are people who have green cards.
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: But if you provide your information, your personal information to
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: the federal government, especially this federal government that's deporting people
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: left and right without much regard to their status sometimes,
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: then yeah, you would be afraid to fill out the census.
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: So will this contempt vote have any practical effects? And
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: what else can the Democrats do here, especially if the
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: Supreme Court rules in favor of Trump? What is the
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: point of this whole exercise?
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: We're fucked. I mean, there is not an obvious or
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: easy solution. The contempt vote is... mildly helpful. It can
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: sometimes be a way to force negotiation around some of
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: these additional documents. And I actually worked with the Judiciary
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: Committee's contempt citation on William Barr as related to the
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: Mueller report. But we have to be very clear about
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: what is happening here is that the rigging of the
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: census is part of a very specific long-term plot by
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: conservatives in this country to ensure that that a shrinking, plutocrative,
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: conservative minority rules a growing, diverse, populist, progressive majority. That
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: is what this is about, that it says we are
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: quickly headed to a world where there are more Democrats
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: and Republicans living in this country, they'll have more political
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: power if their votes are allowed to count, if their
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: population is allowed to count, and they are trying to
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: stop that. It is what voter suppression is about, it
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: is what gerrymandering is about, it's what stealing Merrick Garland's
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: Supreme Court seat is about, and that's what this is about.
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: And I really wish there was an easy solution. That
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: was the hardest part about my conversation with Ari Berman,
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: who has been screaming from the rooftops about this for
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: a long time, is that there is not an easy
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: or obvious solution if the Republicans are allowed to break
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: the census. I mean, essentially, maybe a Democratic Senate, Democratic
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: president could redo the census, but that would be something
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: that would be entirely unprecedented in the history of time.
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: And I think what the Democrats are trying to do here,
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: all they can do is you know, use this information
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: to build that case for impeachment, as we've been talking about,
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: that it's not just the Mueller report. It's a lot
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: of other things, because if, you know, the Supreme Court
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: can decide how the Supreme Court decides, the Supreme Court,
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: which is now filled with, you know, partisan Republicans as well. But,
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: you know, if the Congress can at least expose more
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: documents like the one found on this deceased Republican strategist's computer,
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: It says they didn't add the citizenship question to the
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: census in order to enforce the Voting Rights Act, which
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: is their excuse. But they did it because they just
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: wanted to rig the census so that Republicans gain more
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: political power. Then perhaps they can expose the corruption at
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: the heart of the Republican Party. And this will add
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: to the argument for why Donald Trump should is unfit
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: for office and should be impeached. That's sort of the
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: best case scenario here, which, again, is not the greatest
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: case because they could still get their citizenship question.
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: And we're not. And we have an open impeachment inquiry.
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: Right, of course, no, because the investigations are going to
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: handle themselves. It's just going to magically win the election
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: for the Democrats. All right, let's talk about 2020. Joe
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: Biden and Donald Trump sucked up most of the oxygen
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: in this week's news cycle by going after each other
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: on the campaign trail in Iowa. Biden tore into Trump
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: on tariffs, taxes, health care, foreign policy, and just about
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: everything else, saying that the president is, quote, literally an
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: existential threat to America. Trump's been telling his staff to
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: call Biden old, feeble, and stupid. And on Tuesday, he said, quote,
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: he's a different guy. He looks different than he used to.
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: He acts different than he used to. He's even slower
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: than he used to be. Dan, besides this tit-for-tat making
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: you want to blast yourself into outer space, what did
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: this exchange tell us about the strategies of these two candidates?
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: So for Trump, it says that he wants to rerun
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: the 2016 campaign against Biden. He wants to paint him
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: as a corrupt member of the establishment. He wants to
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: use unfounded rumors and dog whistles to suggest his opponent
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: is unwell or infirmed. which is ironic as all get out,
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: given Trump's age and his infirmities. But that is what
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: he's trying to do. He is rerunning the exact same play,
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: and the only question is whether the Democrats and many
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: in the media who uncritically echoed Trump's rumor-mongering and false
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: statements will learn any lessons from 2016. We are living
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: in Groundhog Day meets end of tomorrow, and it's fucking annoying.
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: For Biden... This is what he wants. Biden wants to...
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: If he can just fight with Trump until Super Tuesday,
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: that is great for him. It elevates him above the
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: rest of the field. It allows him to continue to
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: communicate the currently held perception among a lot of voters
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: that he is the most electable Democrat.
• 27:26
  Speaker 4: And.
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: it avoids him having to respond. If he is battling
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: the most hated person, if he is battling the person
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: that Democrats hate most in Trump, that is much easier
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: than battling a bunch of other people, whether it's Elizabeth
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: Warren or Bernie Sanders or Kamala Harris, who Democrats really like.
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: And so this is Trump fighting with Biden is an
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: in-kind contribution to the Biden for president campaign.
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: So let me ask, what did you think of Biden's message, right?
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: So that's the That's definitely the strategy. That's what the
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: Biden folks are thinking. How effective do you think it
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: played out at least this week?
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: I mean, as a message to ensure that Biden maintains
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: the lead in the Democratic primary, it was effective. He
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: just sort of opened the kitchen sink against Trump and
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: said as many things about Trump as he possibly could.
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: All right. all correct in that Trump is an existential threat.
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: He's a now security threat. He's bad. He's corrupt. All
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: of that is correct and good messaging and not that
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: different from what most Democrats say about him. Whether that
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: is the best general election message against Trump is a
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: different question. And I don't know that he has fully
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: captured what the best general election message is against Trump.
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: Right now, he's sparring with a hologram of Trump for
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: the thrills and likes of Democratic voters. When he has
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: to actually try to persuade either non-voters becoming voters or
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: independents or soft Republicans to vote for him, that's a
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: different question. That's a different challenge. I think he has
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: to be much more specific and concise about.
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: I had a worrying flashback to any number of Hillary
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: Clinton speeches in 2016 where she would get up there
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: and give an entire speech about how Donald Trump is
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: a racist or how Donald Trump is a threat to
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: national security and she would make most of the speech
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: entirely about Donald Trump and it would just hammer him
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: on every single issue under the sun and they were
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: usually well-written speeches and they got great applause. And I
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: will fully admit, I was one of the people that
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: when she'd give that speech, I'd be like, yeah, she
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: got him. Great. And then, you know, he'd say whatever
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: he said about Hillary Clinton, and the headlines would look,
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: and the leads in all the newspapers would look just
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: like they did this week. You know, Hillary and Hillary
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: and Trump traded barbs and they went back and forth
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: in each other and blah, blah, blah. And there's just
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: something about it where I don't know that the Democrat
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: who gets sucked into this vortex going into a back
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: and forth with Trump actually succeeds in getting his or
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: her message out beyond the message that Trump is bad. And,
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: you know, there was a woman interviewed at the end
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: of the New York times piece about this, who said,
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: we all know we don't like Trump. I want to
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: hear Biden talk more about his plans. Um, And look,
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: this is a very, this is not an easy thing
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: to fix. This is, you know, like for the people
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: who are in this campaign, they're all smart people. It's
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: not easy to figure out your way out of this
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: because like you said, it does help Biden. It elevates
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: Biden to go one-on-one with Trump here. But at the
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: same time, I think this moment requires very creative communication
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: strategies and messaging to sort of figure out how to
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: pick the lock on how to deal with Trump. And
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: I don't, you know, if, if I was in the
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: Biden campaign and Trump was out there calling me, you know,
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: old and feeble and all these other kinds of names,
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: you could say something like, you know, of course he's
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: talking about me because he doesn't want to talk about
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: the people who are suffering from his trade war. He
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: doesn't want to talk about the people who lost their
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: health insurance because he sabotaged Obamacare. He doesn't want to
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: talk about the children that he ripped away from families.
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: You know, he doesn't care about the people in this country.
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: He only cares about himself. He only cares about winning
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: reelection so he can make more money, you know, like,
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: There's got to be a way to sort of respond
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: to Trump without making it a fight between you and Trump.
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: I think that's right. It's a hard challenge because the
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: incentives in the primary push you entirely in the wrong direction.
• 31:40
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: Like it is a huge benefit. Like if any one
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: of these other candidates who are well behind Biden or
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: some of the other second tier candidates. could get Trump
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: to attack them on Twitter, it would be a huge
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: bonus to them. It would allow them to raise more money.
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: They would get some attention. There would be coverage about them.
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: And so this idea of trying to pick a fight
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: with Trump to help yourself in the Democratic primary, even
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: if it's just a very tactical thing like generating some
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: virality before the fundraising deadline in a couple of weeks,
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: is very appealing. And It's just different than the incentives
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: you need to, or different than the strategies and tactics
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: you need to defeat Trump in the actual general election.
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: This is why Kirsten Gillibrand did her campaign kickoff outside
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: of Trump headquarters, which is an idea that seems clever
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: on its face, but it's actually a perfect metaphor for
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: all the struggles the Democratic Party has had trying to
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: get its message out in the Trump era, which is
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: allowing him to define the four corners of the conversation.
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: The Democrats who I think have been most successful beneath
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: Biden are the ones who have spent the least amount
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: of time talking about Trump, or at least trying to
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: pick a fight with him. And that, you know, that
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: would be Elizabeth Warren and Mayor Pete have really don't
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: talk about him that often, or at least Warren doesn't talk,
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: rarely talks about him. Pete talks about him more in
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: sort of an analysis of the political situation and talks
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: about him. He does talk about him in saying how
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: he's not going to talk about him in terms of
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: like his change the channel line. But just like going
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: toe to toe with Trump, like those, like a boxer
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: or it's just, it's not, this is not a gladiator match.
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: It's not the way to do it. But where Biden
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: is in the campaign right now, he doesn't yet have
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: all of his plans laid out. This is a place
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: to go. And the temptation of Trump being in the
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: state at the same time was probably too much to pass.
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: And I don't like it makes sense tactically. The question is,
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: is this going to be is this a tactic or
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: is this the strategy? And we'll know that over the
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: course of time.
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think the temptation is like, you know, it's
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: a it's a sugar rush. Like you said, in the
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: short term, you get you get coverage, you get tweets,
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: maybe Trump attacks you, you send out a fundraising email,
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: you get some money. But in the long term, if
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: you do it too much, I think it sort of
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: degrades your brand as a campaign and who you are
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: and what you stand for. And you become defined as
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: opposition to Trump and not who you are and what
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: you stand for. So I think I can see it
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: being useful in certain circumstances, but I think it's a
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: very dangerous well to go to too many times.
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: I just want to say one more thing about this,
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: which is when someone is challenging a incumbent, the... Conventional
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: wisdom of this strategy is that you want to make
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: it a referendum on the incumbent as opposed to a
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: choice between two candidates. And it is the incumbent's interest
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: to make it a choice.
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: I think in this election against Trump, that needs to
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: be flipped on its head and that the Democratic nominee
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: wants it to be a choice between two candidates because
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: we talk about Trump all the time. and I don't
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: mean we, Positive America, but the entire country. All of
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: Trump's flaws and the consequences of having this president are
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: all there for the eye to see. You're not going
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: to reveal some piece of information the public doesn't have.
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: The question is, are you an alternative to that, particularly
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: in a good economy? And so I think there's even
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: more incentive to talk about yourself, to tell your story,
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: to talk about your policies and your visions and your
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: character than in any other reelection case campaign in recent history,
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: in that the Trump side of the ledger is very
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: well stocked. The question is, are you going to stock yours?
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: And look, we started this podcast by talking about, or
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: at least I was advocating that Democratic candidates should go
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: out today and give a speech about how democracy is
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: on the line in this election. Even if I were
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: giving that speech, I would use Trump's name sparingly. I
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: wouldn't make it all about Can you believe that crazy
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: thing he said on ABC? And he's awful and blah, blah, blah.
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: He should be impeached. It's because, by the way, Trump
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: isn't the Trump himself isn't the only threat to our democracy.
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: He is a threat to our democracy. But like it's
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: everything from him to the Republican Party to, you know,
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: all kinds of forces around the world. Like there are
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: plenty of things to talk about that aren't just about Trump,
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: where you're where you can make a pretty good case
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: for yourself and your platform and what you believe in,
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: where you don't have to just say his name 50 times,
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: you know. All right. So the other criticisms leveled at
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: Joe Biden this week were from fellow Democrats after the
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: vice president reiterated his belief that if Trump is defeated
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: in 2020, Republicans will be willing to compromise with Democrats. Quote,
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: with Trump gone, you're going to begin to see things
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: change because these folks know better. They know this isn't
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: what they're supposed to be doing. Dan, what's going on here?
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: Why why does he think this?
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: Biden is an old school institutionalist. He believes something about
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: politics and politicians that was believed to be true for
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: a very long time, may never have been true. And
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: it's just a view of politics I fundamentally disagree with.
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: There is this sense that politics is about personal relationships,
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: that if you can get along with a Republican and
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: build some sort of bond with them, you can convince
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: them to do something different than they are otherwise doing.
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: And this is the genesis of all of the, if
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: Obama would only have more drinks with Mitch McConnell or
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: play golf with Boehner, then he would have accomplished more things.
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: The problem with that is, and that's a deeply naive assessment,
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: I think, about what drives politics in this age. On
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: the margins, personal relationships could matter. If you have a
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: very specific, and I think this is true in Congress,
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: where members of Congress have a very specific project that
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: is sort of non-ideological, You can get help with that.
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: But on the big issues that are the ones that
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: we elect our presidents for on, the economy, health care,
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: civil rights, politicians operate from their political incentives.
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: And I do think this has become more true over time.
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: I think it's become more true over time because the
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: Republican Party has become more radicalized and politics has become
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: more polarized. And Republican politicians now don't just answer to
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: their constituents, they answer to a conservative media propaganda apparatus
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: that punishes them for any hint of compromise. And it's
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: not about their personalities and what they want. Like you said,
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: it is about structural political incentives.
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: And campaign finance laws, where now the Koch brothers can
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: spend a million dollars in your district right up until
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: election day if you violate what they consider to be
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: what it means to be a Republican.
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And look, I mean, you know, Biden gives the
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: example of the recovery act and he said, you know,
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: we got three Republican votes for the recovery act. Biden was,
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: you know, met with all those Republican senators. He knew them. Um,
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: I think he, you know, probably persuaded some of them. He,
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: you know, he persuaded, I think he played a key
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: role in persuading Republican Senator, then Republican Senator Arlen Specter
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: to switch parties and become a Democrat, which he did, uh,
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: at the beginning of Obama's time in office. And that
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: was instrumental. So like, In Biden's mind, I really do
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: believe he thinks that politics are essentially about personal relationships.
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: He is the creature of the Senate. He has been
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: there a long time. He's had relationships with Republican senators
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: that are good. And so he thinks he can bring them. over.
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: But I always remember Barack Obama telling the story of
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: almost doing immigration reform with John Boehner. And John Boehner,
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: and you probably remember this, John Boehner met with Obama
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: and said, I want to do immigration reform with you.
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: I want to help pass it through the House. Let's
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: do it. And They had a good relationship. They didn't
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: golf all the time or have drinks all the time,
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: but they had a good working relationship and John Boehner
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: wanted to do this. And then, you know, Eric Cantor
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: loses a primary race in Virginia to a Tea Party guy.
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: And all of a sudden, Boehner gets cold feet and says,
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: you know what? I'd still love to do immigration reform personally,
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: but I have a caucus where most of my Republicans
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: in the House live in districts that are 90% white
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: or more. They don't have a lot of immigrants in
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: their district. They don't have a lot of Latinos in
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: their district. And so they don't give a shit about this.
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: And if I push immigration reform through the House, then
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: I'm not going to be Speaker anymore. So while I
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: like you and I like the idea of immigration reform,
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: I'm not going to do it. And that's how it
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: really works. It's not about personalities and personal relationships. It's
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: about structural political incentives. And I have a real fear
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: that Joe Biden doesn't understand that.
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that is completely fair. And I, and
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: I think this sympathetic, so there's two ways to look
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: at what Biden said. One is he's wrong that he,
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: like he sincerely believes this and he is just wrong.
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: And that sincere belief is based on his 50 years
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: in politics. And he overweights the first 40 years and
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: underweights the last 10 years.
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: Or he is not.
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: Naive and, And thinks he can probably make more progress
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: than others because he knows the Senate better than anyone
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: else running and better than Obama did. But says this
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: as a way to explain how he's going to get
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: things done. Because explaining how you're going to get things
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: done in this environment is very challenging. And probably thinks
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: that he could make some marginal progress that others couldn't
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: and therefore would be better at the job than everyone
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: else running. But but his actual assessment is probably more
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: balanced than, uh, than his initial comments suggest. And his
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: longer explanation of this, when he got asked about it
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: by a reporter on the rope line, sort of splits
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: the difference between the two. So I don't really know.
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: I think the question for the Democrats running against him
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: is how do you, like, what is the right way
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: to use this in the campaign? And I think we're
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: going to see if people use the debate to jump
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: on this.
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: And I think, They have to be careful too, because
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: the other thing that Biden's people pointed to is the
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: recent CNN poll that, you know, they asked Democrats in
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: the poll, okay, here's a bunch of different qualities, which
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: is most important in deciding who you're going to vote
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: for in the primary. 68% of Democrats said that a
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: willingness to work with Republicans to get things done is
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: either very or extremely important in deciding who to vote for.
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: The only qualities they listed as more important are the
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: right experience to be president, and has a good chance
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: of beating Trump. And below willingness to work with Republicans
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: to get things done, just below it, I think it's 65%,
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: is holds progressive positions, and then just below that was
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: represents the future of the party. So now, polling is polling.
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: It's a snapshot in time. It can change, you know,
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: over time. It can also change depending on how you
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: word it. But there is clearly, this is the problem,
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: is you pull democrats on issues in positions and i
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: can look i notice this when i talk to uh...
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: those focus groups of obama trump voters and obama third-party
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: voters uh... during the wilderness you ask about issues and
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: they are more progressive than you'd imagine even people who
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: voted for trump some of them were saying yeah i
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: want medicare for all i want a huge infrastructure bill
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: great you're like a lot of people are pretty progressive
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: and then you say well do you want someone who's
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: gonna work with republicans do you want someone who's gonna
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: sort of stick to their principles and really fight for
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: these issues and they all say oh, I really want
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: someone who's going to work with Republicans. I'm really sick
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: of the gridlock. I'm sick of the political endless war
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: in Washington. I'm sick of everyone fighting. I just want
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: people to get along and get stuff done. And so
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: there's this gap between what people want in terms of
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: what kind of policy they want to see coming out
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: of Washington, which is actually more progressive than you'd imagine,
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: and the style they want in politicians, which is more conciliatory,
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: at least, and you see this in polls, at least
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: half the party, right? There's probably another half of the party.
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: We're probably more in this half of the party that
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: say like, fuck that. We don't want to compromise with them.
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: We want to, you know, win elections and push this
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: shit forwards because we know how the system works. But
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: what do you do about all those voters who sort
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: of want compromise and want people to work with Republicans?
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: I mean, this is really hard. And voters have a
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: complicated set of emotions. It's like the same voters who
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: say they want the budget cut, but don't cut any
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: of the programs I like. And so I think the
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: way to do this, and I think this is an
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: important point that you make that I just think we
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: ought to flesh out, is that for the politics of it,
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: even within the context of the Democratic primary, Biden's rhetoric
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: is more appealing than as at least at this moment
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: in time, than the more war footing-esque rhetoric of other Democrats.
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: The way, if I was advising a campaign, I would
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: try to split the needle between, the way, if I
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: was advising a campaign, the way I would try to
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: thread the needle there would be to talk about, in
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: very realistic, honest terms, about who the current Republicans in
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: Congress are, most notably Mitch McConnell, the things they are
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: doing to enrich themselves, enrich their donors, to undermine democracy.
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: while at the same time trying to unify the country
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: writ large. It suggests that put aside the furthest right,
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: most rabid parts of the Trump base, that the vast
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: majority of people in this country want a president who
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: will at least try to unify them, who will try
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: to focus, who will not spend all of their time
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: trying to divide us via Twitter and outrageous statements, who
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: will try to heal the wounds of the Trump era.
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: And so you can appeal to broader national unity while
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: being realistic about the challenges of it, while still being
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: honest about who the Republicans in Washington are and the
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: sorts of steps you will take to ensure that Mitch
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: McConnell cannot hold your presidency hostage. And by that, I
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: specifically mean working to eliminate the filibuster. That's how I
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: would do it.
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And look, I would also, I mean, Elizabeth Warren,
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: I think in her first event in Iowa on the
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: campaign campaign, talked about this you know bipartisan piece of
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: legislation uh that helped funding for hearing aids that she
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: worked with on a republican and she talked about all
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: the other republican uh republicans she co-sponsored legislation with bernie
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: sanders has you know has a practical streak from being
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: in the senate for a long time and has talked
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: in the past about uh the different republicans he's worked
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: with to co-sponsor bills you know like i think there's
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: a way to say yeah like I'm happy to work
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: with Republicans when Republicans want to cooperate on issues that
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: really matter to people. And when they're willing to work
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: with us, then great. I'm willing to extend a hand
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: to the Republican Party, but I'm not going to be
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: foolish about it. I'm not going to ignore what's been
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: happening in the Senate and in the House and the
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: presidency when Republicans control it for the last couple decades.
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: I'm going to look at it with, I'm going to
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: be realistic about it and figure out look, I'll work
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: with them when it makes sense to work with them,
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: and I'll work around them when they refuse to work
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: with us. And I'll do both, you know? I think
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: there's a way to sort of split the baby on
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: this one.
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you can be, nuance is still an acceptable way
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: of talking about politics in America.
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: Well, that brings us to, I mean, I will say
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: the other campaigns are being much smarter about how they
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: handle Biden than a lot of the Twitter warriors out there.
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: So in Iowa this week, The vice president said, quote,
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: I promise you if I'm elected president, you're going to
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: see the single most important thing that changes in America.
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: We're going to cure cancer. In response, he was ridiculed
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: by Twitter people on the right and the left. Some
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: of them made fun of him for having a secret
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: cure for cancer. Like, how is this different from saying
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: if I'm elected president, I'm going to pass Medicare for
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: all or if I'm or if I'm elected president, I'm
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: going to give every child a world class education. Is
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: that not the most standard formulation for any campaign promise?
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: Yes, it is people looking for a cudgel to beat
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: Biden over the head with. And yes, it does seem
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: unlikely that we will cure cancer in four to eight years,
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: but it is no less unlikely than passing Medicare for All,
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: the Green New Deal, or even the naming of a
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: fucking post office if you are not for getting rid
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: of the filibuster. So I think that if any other
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: candidate in the field, if Mayor Pete had said that
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: or Elizabeth Warren or Kamala Harris, no one would have
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: attacked them. But because Biden is the front runner and
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: has become an avatar for a lot of things that
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: a lot of very vocal people on Twitter think are
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: wrong with the Democratic Party, they're beating him up with it.
• 48:51
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: I mean, I saw some of the arguments on this
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: and some people making the case that for people who
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: have cancer, have dealt with cancer in their family, false
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: promises or overly optimistic promises or however you want to
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: you you know you want to describe the giving a
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: false hope is um you know is wrong and it
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: you know it can be painful i very sympathetic to
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: that um but i just we have to put this
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: in context and perspective along with lots of other presidents who,
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: or politicians who have made very bold promises, some of
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: which have not come true. And it also has to
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: be put in the context of the personal toll that
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: cancer has had very recently on Vice President Biden's family.
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: Well, look, and it also has to be put in
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: the context of in the last State of the Union
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: in 2016, Barack Obama said, let's be the country that
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: cures cancer. I'm going to put my Vice President Joe
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: Biden in charge of a cancer moonshot initiative. And we
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: think that if we have enough federal funding that we
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: can actually... And look, I mean, you can ask scientists
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: and researchers about this. It's not like there's probably going
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: to be a single cure for all cancers. Cancer is
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: a disease where there's many different kinds of cancer.
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: But.
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: Scientists and researchers do think they're getting closer to having
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: an effective what's an effective cure for cancer or at
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: least helping people live with it or reducing its incidence
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: or whatever it may be. And then Biden, when he
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: left office, started the Biden Cancer Initiative, and he has
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: spent a lot of time working on this issue. Now,
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: maybe it would have been smarter for him to actually
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: do a separate event on it and said, OK, We're
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: going to cure cancer in eight years. I think we
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: can do it. Here's the scientists and researchers who think
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: we can do it. Here's what we need to do
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: it and like lay it all out. But like you said,
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: I mean, I worry about some folks who were against
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: Biden right now having some kind of Biden derangement syndrome
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: where you decide that every word he says is somehow
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: further evidence that he's a bad candidate and increasingly a
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: bad person. And I don't just think that's wrong. I
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: actually think it's a pretty dumb way of persuading people
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: to vote against him if that's your plan, because you
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: have to understand.
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: That's not what they're trying to do. Twitter is not
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: for persuasion.
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: No, it's not. But then it's like, you know what?
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: Look to your favorite campaigns. Look to your other candidates.
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: You don't see Bernie Sanders going after Biden like this.
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: You don't see Elizabeth Warren going after Biden like this,
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: because they're fucking smart. And they know that a lot
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: of people in the Democratic Party... whether they want Joe
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: Biden to be president or not, have a favorable view
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: of Joe Biden. And if you're going to decide that
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: every time Joe Biden says something, every time he has
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: a gap, every time he says something that makes him sound,
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: you know, a little off, which happens a lot, if
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: you're going to decide that that's the end of the
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: world and you're going to fucking turn it up to
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: an 11, every time Joe Biden says something that you
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: don't agree with, people aren't going to take you seriously.
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: You know? It's just like, it's just fucking smart politics if...
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: if that's all you're willing to listen to as opposed
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: to just being the right thing to do also. I
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: don't know. Twitter is fucking awful.
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just, you make this point about a moonshot
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: for cancer, which Biden was in charge of. That's what
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: the moonshot means. It is picking an audacious goal at
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: an unrealistic timeline and then trying to marshal the entire
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: country to achieve that goal. That is exactly what Kennedy
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: did with the moon. Like, that's what it means. It
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: is not setting a super realistic goal. It's just, The
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: whole thing is very frustrating. And now I'm completely worked
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: up about something so incredibly fucking stupid. While the president
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: is committing crimes, Kellyanne Conway is committing crimes, and we
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: are arguing about a bunch of people on Twitter. We're
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: not even arguing. We're just yelling into a fucking void
• 52:33
  Speaker 2: about a bunch of people on Twitter yelling at Joe
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: Biden into a different void.
• 52:37
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: And I honestly just brought it up because it didn't
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: get much coverage. It was a fucking entirely Twitter-based fight
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: about this. But I do see this trend among people
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: who don't want Biden to be the nominee. where they're
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: not just debating him or they're not just pointing out
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: what he says that's wrong, but they're trying to disqualify
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: him as much as possible. And I think, A, that's counterproductive,
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: and B, you know, if Joe Biden ends up as
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: the nominee, then he's our nominee, and I'm going to
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: be out there fucking cheering for him and trying to
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: get him elected. And that's true if Bernie Sanders is
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: the nominee, Elizabeth Warren's the nominee, if any of them
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: are the nominee. And I think we've got to remember that.
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: All right.
• 53:16
  Speaker 5: This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Talk about one of
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  Speaker 5: the relationships you're proudest of in your life and how
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  Speaker 4: No.
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  Speaker 3: What are you going to do?
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  Speaker 5: You don't go to therapy for the coffee. You don't
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  Speaker 2: Right? That's what they say.
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  Speaker 1: It's like museum food. That's what they say.
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  Speaker 1: Damn right.
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• 54:26
  Speaker 1: Let's talk about Mayor Pete, who delivered a major foreign
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: policy speech from Indiana University in Bloomington. In his remarks,
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: Buttigieg went through a list of specific priorities, including... reentering
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: the Iran nuclear agreement and rejoining the Paris climate accord,
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: ending the war in Afghanistan and withholding aid from Israel
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: if it annexes settlements in the West Bank. He also said, quote,
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: for the better part of my lifetime, it has been
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: difficult to identify a consistent foreign policy in the Democratic Party.
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: Democrats can no more turn the clock back to the
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: 1990s than Republicans can return us to the 1950s, and
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: we shouldn't try. So Tommy and Ben got into the
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: policy details on Pod Save the World this week, and
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: it's definitely worth a listen. They do a great job.
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: But I want to talk quickly with you about the
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: politics around this speech. Why do you think Pete delivered
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: this speech and do you think it was effective? What
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: was he trying to do here?
• 55:15
  Speaker 2: I'm pretty curious to hear what you say about this
• 55:17
  Speaker 2: because I did not originally put this on the outline
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: and then you responded you wanted to add it to
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: the outline because you wanted to talk about the politics
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: of it. So I'll let you go first.
• 55:25
  Speaker 3: Sure.
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: I mean, so here's my view. I thought it was
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: a well-written, thoughtful speech that that showed his fluency in
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: almost every major foreign policy topic. So in that sense,
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: it was successful in showing people that he is serious
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: and knowledgeable and understands the world. And he needs to
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: show that because he is a 37-year-old mayor who wants
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: to be in charge of our national security. And I
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: think when you read that speech, you think, okay, he
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: had a lot of really smart foreign policy advisors that
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: helped him work on this speech. He knows what the
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: fuck he's talking about on a lot of these issues.
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: So great. So in that sense, I think it did
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: him a lot of favors. And I found myself agreeing
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: with just about everything he said in the speech. But
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: despite the fact that he said we can't turn back
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: the clock or the Democrats haven't had a consistent foreign policy,
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: which I think you could certainly make an argument for,
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: It was basically a speech that Obama could have given
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: at the end of his term and mostly did. And
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: that's fine. Like, it's totally fine to do that. But,
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: you know, Pete's doing this thing where he's saying, you know,
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: part of his appeal is that he is new and different.
• 56:40
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: He says, I think at this moment in time, we
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: need something totally different. And I think what he has
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: to decide is, is what's different him as a person
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: and his story or does he have different ideas? If
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: he's going to say, if you're going to say that
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: the Democratic Party hasn't had a consistent foreign policy over
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: the last couple decades, well then, what do you mean
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: by that, and how is your foreign policy different than
• 57:06
  Speaker 1: what the Democratic foreign policy was? If you're saying we
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: can't go back, then what is your new idea? And like,
• 57:14
  Speaker 1: I understand this problem because we dealt with this problem
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: in 2007 and 2008 in that campaign with Barack Obama,
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: and you know, the Hillary people would say, oh, you know,
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: Barack Obama is just this new shiny object and he's
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: talking about his biography and he only relies on his
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: story and there's no real substance there and there's no
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: real difference. And I think that could have been a
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: real danger for our campaign, but we sat there and thought, okay,
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: what is it that really makes Obama different? What is
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: he saying about the Democratic Party? And, you know, he
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: ended up with this argument that I got the Iraq
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: war right when the Democratic Party decided that they needed
• 57:51
  Speaker 1: to rush to war because they were afraid of looking
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: weak and they felt like they needed to be tough.
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: And so they went along with the Iraq war and
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: it was a huge mistake. And I don't think we
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: should be afraid of what the Republicans say about us.
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: And that's why when there was a question in debate
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: about would you talk to leaders you don't like and
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: negotiate with leaders you don't like and Hillary said no
• 58:12
  Speaker 1: and the other candidates said no, Obama said, of course,
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: I would talk to leaders we don't like. This is
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: part of what's wrong with the Democratic Party is they're
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: too afraid of getting attacked by Republicans to do what
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: they know is right. So he made a real coherent
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: case and he had some proof points there. And I
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: think what Pete needs to do, what Mayor Pete needs
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: to do if he wants to be the nominee and
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: he wants to really flesh out the case that he
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: is new and different is actually to put some substance
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: behind that argument that he is new and different. And
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: I think like Elizabeth Warren is actually the candidate who's
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: put out a ton of new ideas that that are
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: different than ideas that you just hear from the Democratic
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: Party all the time. She's actually done it without critiquing
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: the Democratic Party. But I think if you're going to
• 58:53
  Speaker 1: make that critique, then your foreign policy or your health
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: care policy or whatever it may be has to truly
• 58:59
  Speaker 1: be different.
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: That's interesting. So I have some thoughts on this. Like
• 59:07
  Speaker 2: you said, speech, well-written, well-delivered, thoughtful. Largely, these campaign foreign
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: policy speeches are more vision than policy, right? It's just
• 59:21
  Speaker 2: like that is how they are. There is definitely specific
• 59:23
  Speaker 2: policy in there, and Pete has as much specific policy
• 59:25
  Speaker 2: as Obama had in his 08 speeches and Bernie Sanders
• 59:30
  Speaker 2: and Elizabeth Warren have had in their speeches earlier this year. Um,
• 59:33
  Speaker 2: but largely they are about vision and they're standing in
• 59:36
  Speaker 2: front at a podium in a suit in front of
• 59:38
  Speaker 2: a bunch of flags and looking like you can play
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: the part.
• 59:42
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Right.
• 59:42
  Speaker 2: Like you can be the commander in chief. Obama had
• 59:44
  Speaker 2: to pass that test. As you also point out, Obama
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: had a huge advantage, which was on the signature foreign
• 59:50
  Speaker 2: policy question of his generation. He got it right. And
• 59:53
  Speaker 2: everyone he was running against got it wrong with the
• 59:56
  Speaker 2: exception of Dennis Kucinich and Mike Revell. My apologies to
• 59:58
  Speaker 2: their candidacies. and, But what I found interesting about Pete's
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 2: foreign policy speech, which is indicative of a larger part
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 2: of his campaign, is that Obama ran against Clintonism as
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: a form of democratic politics.
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 2: Sort of the poll testing, school uniforms, caution that defined
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 2: a lot of Bill Clinton's policies.
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: Mayor Pete is also running against the Clinton version of
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 2: the Democratic Party. When he says, take us back to
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 2: the 90s, no one is arguing for that. There is
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 2: no one saying that we should return to the Democratic
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 2: Party or the America of the 1990s. It's a straw
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 2: man argument. It's a very effective one because it has
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 2: helped him rise to the polls. But he does run
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 2: an argument. His view of politics is... acknowledging of Trump
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 2: as president, but is very centered. His critique of the
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 2: Democrats is very centered in a world in which Barack
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 2: Obama was never president.
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 2: And I just think it's very, it is very interesting.
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 2: And like, there is a very legitimate critique, some of
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 2: which we would obviously vehemently disagree with. Some would disagree
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 2: with very legitimate critique of the democratic party under Barack
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 2: Obama of Barack Obama's of Obama ism, if you will.
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 2: Bernie Sanders had ran on that a lot in 2016
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: and some in this election that has been implicit, if
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 2: not explicit, in some of Elizabeth Warren's policies. But Pete
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 2: has not done that. He has run a critique of
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 2: the Democrats. It's just not a Democratic Party that I recognize.
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 2: So that's one. The second thing is, it is to
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 2: the great credit of Pete Buttigieg as a politician and
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 2: to his campaign that the 37-year-old mayor of South Bend
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 2: who is now firmly ensconced in the top tier of
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 2: the Democratic primary. He is in third or fourth place,
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 2: like essentially in a four-way tie for second in most polls,
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 2: that the 37-year-old mayor of South Bend is giving his
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 2: first policy speech in the middle of June. The fact
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 2: that he was able to pull that trick off is incredible.
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 2: The fact that in this election he's able to get
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 2: to June give a foreign policy speech where he lists
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 2: climate change as the greatest threat facing the country and
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 2: not have a specific climate change plan. Where the full
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 2: extent of what he has laid out on climate change
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 2: is he generally agrees with the principles but not the
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: specifics of the Green New Deal. And to be completely fair,
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: in a normal world, this is still pretty early for
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 2: candidates who have laid out most of their agenda. Elizabeth Warren,
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 2: by virtue of her aggressiveness in policy, has pulled forward
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 2: the policy primary. But Now the question for Pete is
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 2: he is going to have to lay out a series
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 2: of speeches where he's going to have to get specific
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 2: about which Medicare for All plan he supports. What is
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 2: his climate change plan? Where is he different than Elizabeth
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 2: Warren or Joe Biden or Beto O'Rourke? Where is he
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 2: different on criminal justice reform than Kamala Harris? The next
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 2: step for his candidacy, because now when you are in
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 2: second or third place in the polls when you are
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 2: going to probably raise more money than any Democrat running
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 2: this cycle. If he gets less than $ 30 million this quarter,
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 2: I will be shocked.
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, me too.
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 2: Once you do that, that now being an incredible spokesperson
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 2: with a great story is not enough. And we face
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 2: this with Obama. We had a great first few months.
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 2: We cruised, we outraged Hillary. We were the best story
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 2: in the business. And then our summer sucked. And we
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 2: got raked over the coals because now all of a
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 2: sudden the questions come. And you have to start picking
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 2: a side and putting yourself in one of two sides
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 2: on contentious intra-party debates. And how Pete navigates that will
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 2: be very, very interesting to see.
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 1: And look, it's indicative of the speech too. I thought
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 1: the way he framed a lot of foreign policy issues
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 1: was very effective and I found it compelling. you know,
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 1: and Tommy and Ben mentioned this, the way he talked
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 1: about terrorism, you know, I thought was great too. I just,
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 1: there was, I don't think there was anything in his
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 1: speech that many of the other candidates in the field
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 1: would disagree with or hadn't already said before. Like when
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 1: he said that, you know, the president shouldn't have as
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 1: much power to conduct war and that Congress should be,
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: you know, like other candidates have come out for that
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 1: position as well. And so, yeah, I'm just, I'm interested
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: to see what differentiates him in a more substantive way
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 1: from the rest of the field. Another candidate who delivered
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 1: a big speech this week was Bernie Sanders, who argued
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 1: that the United States must choose the path known as
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 1: democratic socialism, was the quote from the speech. He said that, quote,
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 1: economic rights are human rights and that the unfinished business
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: of the Democratic Party is to, quote, take up the
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 1: unfinished business of the New Deal. Sanders proposed a 21st
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 1: century economic bill of rights that would include the right
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 1: to a decent job that pays a living wage, quality
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: health care, a complete education, affordable housing, a secure retirement,
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 1: and a clean environment. Dan, what did you think of
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 1: the speech?
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: I really wish I could have watched the speech in
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 2: a vacuum where I did not know, where no one
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 2: had told me what the quote-unquote purpose of the speech was.
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 2: Because I thought the speech in and of itself was
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 2: a pretty valiant effort to take Bernie Sanders' aggressively populist
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 2: and progressive proposals and put them within the mainstream tradition
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 2: of a Democratic Party dating back to Franklin Roosevelt. I
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 2: thought it was an interesting way of pointing out that
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 2: Republicans are going to call him socialist, they called Obama socialist,
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 2: they called Franklin Roosevelt socialist. Whoever the Democratic nominee is,
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 2: they're going to be called socialist. What I do have
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 2: no idea... was why they told the press that this
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 2: was a defense of democratic socialism that it would be
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 2: explained why he called himself a democratic social explain what
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 2: democratic socialism is it did none as far as i
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 2: could tell it did none of those things and so
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 2: you took what would be a very good speech where
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 2: he proposes an economic bill of rights which is a
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 2: great fucking policy campaign policy idea it's a great way
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 2: to lay out your agenda to frame it in a
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 2: way that people can understand It took all of that
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 2: and but branded it in this thing that it didn't do.
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 2: And I don't I think this was a communications failure
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 2: on behalf of the campaign that I think this was
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 2: a I don't know. It wasn't helpful and it may
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 2: have been hurtful.
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 1: It was one of the best defenses of New Deal
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 1: liberalism that any candidate has ever given. But that's what
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 1: it was. It was a defense of the New Deal
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 1: and New Deal liberalism. It was not a defense of
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 1: democratic socialism. You know, like, I mean, in addition to that,
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 1: he went on this whole riff about how, you know,
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 1: whether it was the Children's Health Insurance Program or Social
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 1: Security or Medicare or the Recovery Act, things that Democrats
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 1: have put forward have always been attacked as socialist. And
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 1: it's like, well, yeah, that's right. That's the problem. But actually,
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: they're not socialist. They're just firmly within the tradition of
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 1: New Deal liberalism in the Democratic Party. So then why
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 1: are you calling yourself a democratic socialist? That's what we
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 1: don't understand. Because if you took out the couple times
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 1: he said the phrase democratic socialist in that speech, Barack
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 1: Obama could have delivered that exact speech and has in
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 1: various forms. And so have many other progressive Democrats. Many
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 1: other progressive Democrats have said that. I actually think the
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 1: way Bernie put it together in that speech was very
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 1: effective and compelling. I mean, like, it was funny talking
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 1: about the Economic Bill of Rights, the Second Bill of Rights.
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's a famous FDR quote when he said,
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 1: we have one Bill of Rights and now we need
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 1: to finish the unfinished business of the New Deal. We
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 1: need to have an Economic Bill of Rights, a Second
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 1: Bill of Rights. I titled the episode about economics in
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 1: the wilderness, the Second Bill of Rights. And it was
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 1: a defense of why the Democratic Party needs to be
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 1: talking more about economic rights today. And I believe that
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 1: we do. And I found myself agreeing with just about
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 1: everything Bernie said in that speech, except it did not
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 1: explain why he calls himself a democratic socialist. It does
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 1: not explain why Bernie Sanders went from a mayor of Burlington, Vermont,
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 1: who actually advocated the nationalization of certain industries, like banking
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 1: and other industries in this country, actually was like a
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 1: real socialist would, and why he sort of moved over
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 1: the years to not advocating for the nationalization of most
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 1: industries in this country, But basically now he's just a
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 1: progressive Democrat. And for some reason, he just doesn't want
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 1: to call himself that.
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 2: I mean, he's a victim of his own success. Like
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 2: there was a war, like let's go back to 2016.
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 2: He could have given a version of the speech in
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 2: 2016 where he said, I am a democratic socialist because
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 2: I believe in single-payer government health care. I believe that
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 2: college should be free. I believe that Social Security should
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 2: be expanded. And those are not the positions of the
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 2: Democratic Party. The problem for Bernie is he won the debate.
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 2: Those are now the positions of most of the people
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 2: in the Democratic Party. And what is a real challenge
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 2: for him is how... is that polls are pretty clear
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 2: that there's wide skepticism in the electorate more generally... And
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 2: specifically the Democratic Party about voting for a quote-unquote socialist.
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 2: And so you have Elizabeth Warren, who has a very
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 2: similar boldly progressive populist anti-Wall Street, anti-corporation agenda, who calls
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 2: herself a capitalist. And then you have Bernie Sanders with
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 2: the same agenda who calls himself a democratic socialist. And
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 2: I still... have not heard. And we'd love to hear
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 2: an explanation for why one is a capitalist and one
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 2: is a democratic socialist. Like, what is the fundamental difference?
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 2: And I remember this from Lovett's interview with AOC right
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 2: after she won the primary. And he asked her, you know,
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 2: he basically said, you believe in Medicare for all, free college,
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 2: et cetera, and you call yourself a democratic socialist. I
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 2: believe in those things. Elizabeth Warren believes in those things
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 2: and calls herself, I believe this has to be a capitalist. Like,
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 2: what's the difference? And That's still a question I think
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 2: has become a very hard one for that wing of
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 2: the party to answer in a world in which the
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 2: debate is not Medicare single payer or nothing. It is
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 2: the transition time for that single payer. It is the gravity.
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 2: Like if it was Bernie against Biden or Bernie against Hickenlooper,
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 2: whoever else, that's a real debate. But once you bring
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 2: in all the other top tier candidates support some version
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 2: of Medicare for all, including our co-sponsors of his own plan,
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 2: I think this gets much more challenging.
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think it's a result of, you know,
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 1: some of the... It's interesting sort of reading lefty Twitter
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 1: because there's a whole bunch of lefties, you know, work
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 1: at The Intercept, other places, who were like, I don't
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 1: understand why he did that either. I don't understand why
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 1: he leaned into the Democratic Socialist label and tried to
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 1: say there's a whole speech about Democratic Socialism when he
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 1: basically defended FDR, the New Deal, and liberalism.
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 4: And.
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 1: Partly, I think it's because there's probably some people in
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 1: his campaign and there's certainly a lot of people, you know,
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 1: lefty Twitter people, lefty journalists, lefty pundits who seem to
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 1: want the fight with the Democratic Party more than they
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 1: want to win the fight. And like you said, like
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 1: they've they've moved the party to the left. And part
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 1: of politics is saying, OK, now that you agree with me,
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 1: come join my movement. And come, you know, you believe
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 1: in my policies now. Well, let's let's join together and
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 1: sort of build a movement. And some of these people,
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 1: they don't want you as part of their movement because
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 1: they just want to yell at you on Twitter. That's
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 1: what makes them feel good. There's a lot of like, oh,
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 1: centrist democratic heads are going to be exploding over this speech. No,
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 1: I agree with I found myself agreeing with almost every word.
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 1: What I couldn't understand is why, like you said, they
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 1: build it as a speech about him defending democratic socialism
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 1: and his label as democratic socialism when it didn't really
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 1: do that. That's the problem.
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 2: It, I understand like having, you know, we've worked in
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 2: a lot of campaigns and I understand the world where
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 2: you are sitting around the table and you, you probably
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 2: have done focus groups or whatever. And you understand that Democrat,
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 2: that the Bernie's decision to call himself a democratic socialist is,
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 2: poses some political problems. Either it's a proxy for electability. It,
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 2: you know, there's some number of sort of the, the
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 2: voters he needs to expand to grow his base with
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 2: have skepticism about that. It's either confusing or they have
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 2: a natural aversion to it. So you have to deal
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 2: with it. And so just the problem is, so I
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 2: understand why you would give a speech to address a
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 2: campaign weakness, to try to reframe it. I just don't
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 2: think that's what they did. Or the better thing, it's
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 2: also interesting, I saw this in one of those Twitter threads,
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 2: is Bernie Sanders has two There are two labels that
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 2: he's chosen for himself, Democratic Socialist and Independent. And the
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 2: Independent one is much more appealing and drove his– I
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 2: think it was a huge driver of a lot of
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 2: his success in 2016. And he chose the other one,
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 2: the least popular, more problematic one to deal with. I
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 2: don't know that I have a great solution to being
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 2: perfectly fair to him. I don't know that I have
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 2: a great solution for how Bernie Sanders answers the question
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 2: of why he calls himself a democratic socialist while he's
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 2: running for the Democratic nomination and a large portion of
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 2: the people running agree with his vision for the country.
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 2: It's not an easy thing to answer. I just think
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 2: that this speech did not accomplish that, and they raised
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 2: the expectations that it would. And if he had just
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 2: been giving a speech about an economic bill of rights,
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 2: then this speech would have been a home run. But
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 2: because they framed it a certain way with the press,
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 2: then the coverage was not indicative of what the speech was.
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 2: And then when that happens, there's always a problem.
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 1: Here's the way you do it. You start the speech
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 1: by saying, I've had many labels in life that I've
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 1: called myself. I've called myself a democratic socialist. I've called
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 1: myself an independent. Here's what I actually believe about the economy.
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 1: Here's what I believe about our country. And then he
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 1: lays out the thing and says, if you believe that too,
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 1: whether you're a democrat, whether you're a democratic socialist, whether
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 1: you're an independent, whether you're a publican, then you should
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 1: join my campaign and you should vote for me and
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 1: you should be part of this movement. That's what he
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 1: should have done. And then make it less about the
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 1: label and more about the fucking philosophy and the policies,
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 1: you know? It's just like they're hung up on the label,
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 1: which is just so silly to me. Okay, when we
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 1: come back, we'll have Ana Marie Cox's interview with Congresswoman
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 1: Ilhan Omar.
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 4: Hi, I'm Anna Marie Cox. And I'd like to introduce
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 4: our interview for the night. She is a member of
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 4: the United States House, currently representing Minnesota's 5th Congressional District.
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 4: Your Congresswoman and mine, please give a warm welcome to
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 4: Ilhan Omar.
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much.
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 4: So I'll just wrangle you backstage for some constituent service stuff.
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 3: That I've got. We can do it now.
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 2: I'm tempted.
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 4: But you're hard to get a meeting with.
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 2: You're very popular.
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 1: All right.
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 3: We have to fix that.
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 1: Well, no.
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 4: We want you to stay popular.
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 4: Okay. So earlier this week, we'll start with news. Earlier
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 4: this week, the House passed the Dream and Promise Act.
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 3: Yes!
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 4: Which, if made law, would give 2.5 million unauthorized immigrants
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 4: a path to citizenship.
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 3: Which is awesome. But, of course, the key phrase there is.
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 4: If made law. So I guess my question is, what
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 4: does it feel like to be the unstoppable force crashing
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 4: into Mitch McConnell's immovable object? What is the purpose of
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 4: doing these amazing pieces of legislation knowing that they're not
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 4: going to get somewhere?
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 3: There's so much purpose behind it, really. So Tuesday was Eid.
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 3: which is the end of Ramadan. And I had this
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 3: very conflicting choice I had to make, whether to stay
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 3: here to celebrate with my children and family, which I
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 3: have not missed one single Eid since they were born
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 3: in celebrating with them, or go and be part of
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 3: a very historic vote to really assure that the dreams
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 3: and the promises of this country are still alive. for
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 3: so many people. And so I prayed with the kids,
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 3: told my little one that I was going to go
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 3: to D.C. to go vote, and she said, what's more
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 3: important than us? She's a feisty one.
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 4: She sounds like she'd be good at corporate PR.
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think so. She's got a future somewhere. And
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 3: I paused for a second because it wasn't that there
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 3: was something important than her. But it was also true
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 3: that there were other six-year-olds that were also as important
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 3: that needed to have their parents to have the opportunity
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 3: to stay with them and continue to celebrate with them.
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 3: And so.
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 3: So when I think about the constituents that I have
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 3: that are with the status of DED, or TPS, I
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 3: think about the kind of shattered dreams that they have
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 3: in knowing that they might not get to celebrate every
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 3: single holiday with their kids because they might get deported.
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 3: And so we get to... be purposeful in saying you matter,
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 3: we see you, this is your country, you're our neighbor,
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 3: we're going to do everything that we can to put
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 3: a piece of legislation together that validates your existence in
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 3: this country. And so I also know, right, that that
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 3: bill happened because they organized, and I always say you
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 3: get what you organize for, so they got the opportunity
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 3: to get that bill passed, and I know with their help,
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 3: we will make sure that Mitch McConnell gets to give
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 3: that bill a hearing, or not have a seat again
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 3: in the Senate. And I know that this particular graveyard,
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 3: the legislative graveyard that the Senate has become.
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 4: Crypt keeper McConnell. Yes.
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 3: Is one that is not going to exist for another
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 3: two years. So I'm really excited for the opportunity for
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 3: us to organize for the America that we deserve in
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 3: one where we're protecting and guaranteeing prosperity for.
• 1:20:23
  Speaker 4: All of us. You've spoken before quite eloquently about the
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 4: perspective you bring to Congress as an immigrant, as a refugee.
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 4: I confess I'm curious about the perspective you bring to
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 4: Congress as a Minnesotan. Are you able to go in D.C.
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 4: winters without a coat? You know, like, do you bring
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 4: hot dish to the Congress to share?
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 1: Do you do potlucks?
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 3: So I was the second runner-up for the hot dish contest, so...
• 1:21:05
  Speaker 3: Brought my Minnesotan skills.
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 4: It's mad hot dish skills.
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 2: What was.
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 3: It? It was mogadishu dish. Mogadishu. Oh, I get it. Okay, yeah.
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 4: Hot mogadishu.
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 3: And it was sambusas mixed with tater tots. And we didn't...
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 3: Get this, get this. You'll love this. We didn't place
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 3: number one because they said it was too flavorful for Minnesota.
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 3: And I said, the fifth is too flavorful for Minnesota.
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 3: So that makes sense. It's perfect. Oh, wow.
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 4: You're a spicy meatball.
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 3: But... Amy Klobuchar was asked once how come... You can
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 3: clap for our senator. She was asked once how come
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 3: she shows up to all of these press conferences in
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 3: the middle of the winter without a jacket. And she said,
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 3: because I'm Minnesotan. And so even though the sub-Saharan heat
• 1:22:21
  Speaker 3: in me.
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 3: Has not totally transcended to the Minnesota in me. I
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 3: have been known to walk around in DC without a jacket.
• 1:22:35
  Speaker 3: I felt a little shameful in trying to bring a coat.
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 3: Gotta represent.
• 1:22:39
  Speaker 4: Yeah. You're a part of a particularly diverse and young
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 4: class of representatives. And I am sure that you are
• 1:22:54
  Speaker 4: learning a lot from the men and women that have
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 4: preceded you. I am curious, though, if you think there's
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 4: anything you have to teach them.
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 3: I mean, so with age comes wisdom.
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 1: Sure.
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 3: Let's just pause it.
• 1:23:14
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 2: Like, yeah, fine.
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 2: That's great.
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 4: But what don't they know?
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 3: They don't know urgency. And a lot of them don't
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 3: know hunger. A lot of them don't know fear. And
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 3: most of them have not known courage really lately. So
• 1:23:43
  Speaker 3: a lot of us are, like many Americans, we're coming
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 3: in there with lots of hunger. and urgency and courage
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 3: to really change the trajectory that our country is currently on.
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 4: There are so many issues I feel like young people
• 1:24:08
  Speaker 4: are more plugged in on than are me. I'm old.
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 4: Me too. Let's not.
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 3: That's just.
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 4: So I was able to observe your primary, of course,
• 1:24:25
  Speaker 4: since I'm your constituent. And you did take care during
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 4: the primary to point out that you were the only
• 1:24:30
  Speaker 4: candidate that had student debt, which is one of those
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 4: things that maybe the older people in Congress have either
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 4: not known or forgotten about.
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 3: I mean, I am part of the 45 million people
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 3: who are shackled with the burdens of student debt. And
• 1:25:01
  Speaker 3: what that does really is it stops, I think, prosperity
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 3: for all of us. It stops us from having the
• 1:25:11
  Speaker 3: opportunity to purchase a home. It stops us from the
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 3: opportunity to starting that business. It stops us from the
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 3: opportunity of even economically participating in small ways within our communities.
• 1:25:27
  Speaker 3: Starting a family, I mean, I was fortunate enough to
• 1:25:30
  Speaker 3: do that. Maybe not so wise enough to do that.
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 3: Whichever way you look at it. You took a flyer
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 3: on it. It compounds it, right? When you are a
• 1:25:41
  Speaker 3: parent with student debt, there's compounding of that struggle, that
• 1:25:45
  Speaker 3: economic struggle.
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 4: I should point out, actually, most people probably don't realize
• 1:25:48
  Speaker 4: that most students in college today, like there are many, many,
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 4: the atypical student is now the typical student. A student
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 4: with children, a married student, a student at a community college.
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 4: So you're speaking to a huge portion of of people
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 4: going to school.
• 1:26:03
  Speaker 3: Exactly, exactly. And I think it is really important for
• 1:26:06
  Speaker 3: us to recognize that we have to provide relief for
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 3: this 45 million. And that relief must come in the
• 1:26:16
  Speaker 3: form of a bailout for them. And so what we
• 1:26:21
  Speaker 3: are proposing is complete debt cancellation. Of their federal and
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 3: private student loans, complete cancellation. And, you know, proponents of
• 1:26:34
  Speaker 3: this would say, you know, you're canceling out student debt
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 3: for people who can afford it to pay back their debt.
• 1:26:44
  Speaker 3: And we know, right, like the children of Trump are
• 1:26:51
  Speaker 3: not going to benefit from this because people like that
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 3: don't have student debt. And so we recognize that most
• 1:27:02
  Speaker 3: people who have student debt are low income. They are
• 1:27:09
  Speaker 3: folks who are struggling to make sure that they get
• 1:27:14
  Speaker 3: that prosperity that was guaranteed to them because education was
• 1:27:18
  Speaker 3: the gateway to that. And right now, that's not happening
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 3: for them. And so... The $ 1. 5 trillion that it would
• 1:27:29
  Speaker 3: cost for us to cancel out would pay for itself
• 1:27:33
  Speaker 3: within 10 years, which is very different than the tax
• 1:27:38
  Speaker 3: cut that we just gave to corporations. And so if
• 1:27:46
  Speaker 3: we're saying we really care about making sure that we're
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 3: growing the middle class and we're investing in people, this
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 3: is the way to go. All right.
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 1: Thanks to Congresswoman Omar for joining us in Minneapolis. And
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 1: we will see you next week.
• 1:28:12
  Speaker 2: Bye, everyone.
• 1:28:13
  Speaker 4: Bye.
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 1:28:30
  Speaker 4: Bye.