Latest / The Book Deal / Holly Cardamone on pre-launch strategies, communications and why publishing is a marathon, not a sprint

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Holly Cardamone on pre-launch strategies, communications and why publishing is a marathon, not a sprint · The Book Deal

0:09
Speaker 5: This is the Book Deal podcast where you will discover the inspiring stories behind your favorite books.
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Speaker 6: We interview seasoned and debut authors, as well as publishing industry professionals to bring you the best tips and advice on
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Speaker 4: I'm Tina Strawn.
0:30
Speaker 4: I'm Madeline Cleary.
0:32
Speaker 4: And I'm Natasha Wright.
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Speaker 4: And join us as we pull back the curtain of published authors
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Speaker 7: The book Deal podcast acknowledges the traditional owners, the land and waters, which it's recorded on and pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging.
0:56
Speaker: It's Madeline here.
0:57
Speaker: Before we jump into this episode with our delightful guest, Holly Cardamone, I wanted to let you know I'll be hosting a spoiler book Club Zoom session with our writing industry, queen and friend of the podcast Kate Mildenhall.
1:10
Speaker: So on the 10th of December, we're gonna be diving into all the spoilers about Kate's new novel, the Hiding Place.
1:16
Speaker: And you can ask Kate any burning question you like.
1:19
Speaker: You can sign up to this live Zoom event in the link in our show notes.
1:23
Speaker: Now onto our episode, Holly Cardamone is an award-winning Australian author.
1:28
Speaker: Her debut novel summer in between won the 2024 Hawkeye Publishing.
1:33
Speaker: Manuscript Development Prize was published in September this year.
1:37
Speaker: We chat about what happens when you leave your handwritten manuscript on a train in Italy, writing buddies and accountability winning awards, but also experiencing rejections and shame.
1:48
Speaker: It will leave you ready for a long and hot summer.
1:52
Madeleine Cleary: Holly Cardamone, welcome to the Book Deal podcast.
1:55
Holly Cardamone: Thank you so much for having me.
1:56
Holly Cardamone: What a thrill.
1:57
Madeleine Cleary: Can you tell us a little bit about your debut novel, Summer, In Between
2:01
Holly Cardamone (2): Oh, I, I would absolutely love to, this is my favorite question, one of the things I always say is imagine if Looking for Alibrandi and puberty, blues had a book baby, and that's my novel and they're the vibes that I was going for in creating it.
2:15
Holly Cardamone (2): If I can, um, be so as bold as to compare myself to those novels, my goodness, what a head I have on me.
2:21
Holly Cardamone (2): But, um, basically it's a young adult novel.
2:25
Holly Cardamone (2): It's a story of Cat who was 17 years old.
2:28
Holly Cardamone (2): She lives in a tiny little beach town, 90 minutes or so from the city, and she's facing a long, boring summer without all of her friends.
2:36
Holly Cardamone (2): But she has a plan and that's to get stuck into her books.
2:39
Holly Cardamone (2): Two reasons.
2:40
Holly Cardamone (2): Number one, it'll give her a bit of distance from her overbearing, interfering, um, Nonna and her boisterous brothers and her parents who are mortifyingly affectionate to the point of get a room.
2:52
Holly Cardamone (2): But it also.
2:54
Holly Cardamone (2): Um, alleviate the pressure that she's put on herself about her year 12 results.
2:58
Holly Cardamone (2): She honestly believes that they'll make or break her future, and she believes that if she gets a good year 12 result, that will be her ticket out of town.
3:06
Holly Cardamone (2): And the other thing she wants to do for the summer is avoid the pack of local surfers who she calls the Neanderthals in this little, um, hot bed of a town filled with, um, misogyny and casual and overt racism.
3:18
Holly Cardamone (2): So that's her plan.
3:20
Holly Cardamone (2): What her plan doesn't include though, is the king of the Neanderthals, the hottest of the hot, uh, Paul Light wood coming to work for her dad at her house for the entire summer.
3:29
Holly Cardamone (2): So summer becomes really, really interesting as these two characters who seemingly have very little in common, uh, start going to night parties, they start jumping off cliffs into the ocean.
3:40
Holly Cardamone (2): They have gelato, they have non as spectacular lasagna, and it's a summer that changes everything.
3:45
Madeleine Cleary: Oh, Holly, what a summary.
3:47
Madeleine Cleary: That's amazing.
3:48
Madeleine Cleary: Um, you pack a lot in because it's, it's 250 pages, which is pretty common for a wire novel, but you really touch on so many amazing issues.
3:56
Madeleine Cleary: I flew through this book.
3:58
Madeleine Cleary: It was amazing.
3:59
Madeleine Cleary: Um, my family, um, spent a lot of, we spent a lot of time on the Mornington Peninsula, so my parents, um, had a house down there, and so it really brought me back.
4:08
Madeleine Cleary: So there's so much nostalgia, I think in Nost.
4:11
Madeleine Cleary: And I'm guessing that's what you intended.
4:13
Holly Cardamone (2): Look, it's, we all have these, um, I think it's a particularly Australian thing.
4:18
Holly Cardamone (2): We have these memories of our teenage summers on a beach town or, um, or somewhere away from, you know, the day to day.
4:26
Holly Cardamone (2): And what I wanted to have in this, in somewhere in between is that sense of nostalgia about going back to that space where we had so many of our formative years and adolescence is this period of tumultuousness.
4:38
Holly Cardamone (2): So put in a, in a different environment of summer, of the beach, of all these people having fun.
4:43
Holly Cardamone (2): And if you are not having fun, what's that like to be on the outside of witnessing that?
4:47
Holly Cardamone (2): And the other thing I wanted to include in this setting is that beach towns, um, are amazing spaces to go and have holidays, but for the locals they can be quite different.
4:56
Holly Cardamone (2): And I wanted to include some of those tensions there.
5:00
Madeleine Cleary: Mm, no, it was, it was brilliant.
5:02
Madeleine Cleary: And, um, even though it's a y it's a ya novel, so many adults would just love falling back into that world.
5:08
Madeleine Cleary: And I think it's perfectly timed this episode at the start of summer as well.
5:12
Madeleine Cleary: I wanna talk about maybe Holly back when she was a young adult, um, uh, and in your summer in between Holly, when you were on that verge from teenage to adulthood, did you dream of aspiring to be a writer at that time?
5:27
Holly Cardamone (2): I absolutely did, and I also was the teen sitting on the beach with a monster textbook.
5:34
Holly Cardamone (2): Uh.
5:35
Holly Cardamone (2): Studying Feverously.
5:37
Holly Cardamone (2): I knew that was my ticket out.
5:39
Holly Cardamone (2): Like that was actually absolutely my ticket out.
5:41
Holly Cardamone (2): Um, that's probably where the similarities ended.
5:44
Holly Cardamone (2): Um, did I have a walking green flag?
5:46
Holly Cardamone (2): Gorgeous.
5:46
Holly Cardamone (2): King of the Neanderthals, hottest of the hot surfer dude?
5:50
Holly Cardamone (2): Uh, no I didn't.
5:51
Holly Cardamone (2): So that bit, um, completely and utterly fictional.
5:54
Holly Cardamone (2): Um, unfortunately.
5:56
Holly Cardamone (2): Sadly.
5:57
Holly Cardamone (2): But yes, it was, you know, that was my adolescence being in a small town, um, feeling the tugs of wanting to get out, but also this amazing family that I have as well, like knowing that when I do leave, um, I'll be leaving.
6:13
Holly Cardamone (2): So much love behind.
6:14
Holly Cardamone (2): And the dramatics are ridiculous.
6:16
Holly Cardamone (2): It's literally 90 minutes up the road.
6:18
Holly Cardamone (2): Like, it's not like changing countries or anything like that, but there's that real tension, um, in adolescence of, you know, the pulling away and holding on and all that sort of stuff.
6:27
Holly Cardamone (2): And, you know, we all feel that.
6:29
Holly Cardamone (2): And you know, what a, what a privilege it is to recreate that on the page for other people to, you know, to read that and experience that and, and re and remember it.
6:38
Madeleine Cleary: Mm.
6:39
Madeleine Cleary: So what did you wanna do then when you were in that?
6:41
Madeleine Cleary: So you, obviously, you've said that you left that beautiful beach side town, and it sounds like an absolutely idyllic childhood that you had, and, and I think that, like you said, Kat has had a similar experience up until that point.
6:54
Madeleine Cleary: But what did you wanna be?
6:55
Madeleine Cleary: So do, have you always wanted to be a writer,
6:57
Holly Cardamone (2): I absolutely did.
6:58
Holly Cardamone (2): And it's funny, like even hearing you say that, it's like, oh, poor me.
7:01
Holly Cardamone (2): I grew up on a, a farm on the beach.
7:03
Holly Cardamone (2): I went to sleep here in Ocean.
7:05
Holly Cardamone (2): You know, you know, or how awful for me, um, I always did want to be a writer, and my plan was always go and do the arts degree, um, be a writer.
7:14
Holly Cardamone (2): That was it, that was my plan.
7:16
Holly Cardamone (2): And I was, I was towards the end of year 12, you know, you meet with your careers teacher and she was also my English lit teacher who knew what I wanted to do.
7:26
Holly Cardamone (2): And she said to me that I, um, you know, was obviously highly creative and also very organized and structured, which was apparently quite unusual to have those two, um, strengths lined up next to each other.
7:39
Holly Cardamone (2): Her perspective was, rather than do an arts degree, why didn't I go and do a health, um, Health program.
7:46
Holly Cardamone (2): Um, and that would give me life experience.
7:49
Holly Cardamone (2): Her view was that I was a private school girl who lived this very sheltered life in a beautiful part of the world, not a lot of life experience there to be writing up stories.
7:58
Holly Cardamone (2): And to this day, I don't know if it was good advice or bad advice.
8:01
Holly Cardamone (2): It was good advice in that it did give me a career path.
8:03
Holly Cardamone (2): So I did a nursing degree, uh, that was incredible.
8:06
Holly Cardamone (2): It took me, um, so many places it took me into, uh, public policy, which was incredible.
8:11
Holly Cardamone (2): And that's how I started making the, um, jump back over to writing.
8:15
Holly Cardamone (2): And, um, but in many ways there was a decade where I didn't write and it felt like there was something missing in my life.
8:21
Holly Cardamone (2): So yes, always wanted to be a writer.
8:23
Holly Cardamone (2): I've always been a massive reader.
8:25
Holly Cardamone (2): And it's funny because I say that I didn't write for 10 years, but I wrote nursing care notes that I was, um, spoken to a couple of times because these are legal documents and you probably shouldn't put things in there like dirty old man.
8:40
Holly Cardamone (2): Yeah, it's probably,
8:40
Speaker 11: trouble.
8:42
Holly Cardamone (2): and you know, and I'm thinking about, you know, I had a doctor say to me, your descriptions of wounds are so visceral, I can almost taste them.
8:49
Holly Cardamone (2): And it was like, what?
8:50
Holly Cardamone (2): That's not, probably not what I was going for, but you know, I will take that as a compliment.
8:54
Holly Cardamone (2): So yeah, it's something that I always loved.
8:57
Madeleine Cleary: Isn't it interesting though, how when we're young, and this is, I suppose, why we are so drawn to reading young adult fiction is that these, everything seems very pivotal and when we get advice from people, we really do take it to heart and it can really impact our entire well for you the next decade.
9:13
Madeleine Cleary: And so it's really, it is the things that we say to our, you know, young adults, it's, it can be really critical, and I don't think yours is an unfamiliar story as well.
9:22
Madeleine Cleary: A lot of people have this dream and then either a parent or a teacher or an adult says, oh, why don't you try doing something else first and get yourself a stable career and then you can go and do what you want.
9:34
Holly Cardamone (2): Yeah, I think it's some, in some way it, it's very limiting.
9:36
Holly Cardamone (2): And look, things are very different now and I acknowledge that.
9:39
Holly Cardamone (2): And, you know, the options and opportunities that my daughters have are just mind blowing.
9:43
Holly Cardamone (2): And the pathways as well, they're incredible.
9:45
Holly Cardamone (2): And you know, and I say to my girls, you know, you don't have to decide what you wanna be forever, just decide what you wanna do first.
9:52
Holly Cardamone (2): And you know, and I think that message that, you know, like have a plan B is it's, it, of course it makes sense.
9:59
Holly Cardamone (2): Of course it does.
9:59
Holly Cardamone (2): But like the opportunity to dream and follow a passion, like life's really, really long, like what would've been the harm in me doing an arts degree and then finding my way into something like it just, yeah, like that whole pressure to have, um, look, it's coming from a point of privilege and I acknowledge that, but that pressure to have gainful employment, I think that's.
10:20
Holly Cardamone (2): That's quite, um, when it's misaligned to we who you are as a person, that's really difficult.
10:25
Holly Cardamone (2): I dragged myself through a degree that I had no, um, no affinity to, no passion for.
10:30
Holly Cardamone (2): But what I did love was the stories.
10:32
Holly Cardamone (2): So I did love sitting on people's beds, braiding their hair.
10:35
Holly Cardamone (2): Um, they were in the worst moments of their life and I was chatting to them about, you know, what they were up to, what led them to that point.
10:40
Holly Cardamone (2): And that was, that was the, um, elements of the job that I really, really liked.
10:44
Holly Cardamone (2): That, that sense of connection and I suppose making a difference.
10:48
Holly Cardamone (2): And, you know, those bits I loved,
10:51
Madeleine Cleary: Mm.
10:51
Madeleine Cleary: I feel like you could write, um, a memoir about that time, like people's stories.
10:55
Madeleine Cleary: Like, I mean, it's hard, isn't it, when you're a healthcare professional, but, uh, it sounds like storytelling has followed you.
11:00
Madeleine Cleary: And then I read as well that you now have, you've got two master's degrees,
11:04
Speaker 2: I do,
11:04
Madeleine Cleary: of Communications, and a master of literature.
11:06
Madeleine Cleary: So obviously you've gone back to the arts.
11:08
Madeleine Cleary: How did you get back into it?
11:10
Holly Cardamone (2): Um, it?
11:11
Holly Cardamone (2): was funny, I was addicted to study for a while there.
11:13
Holly Cardamone (2): I did communications because I, that had that, you know, that that ingrained belief that if I was gonna go back to uni it had to be something productive.
11:23
Holly Cardamone (2): Like I had to make money out of it.
11:25
Holly Cardamone (2): I had to have something that was quite, um, you know, grounded in employment and an employability.
11:30
Holly Cardamone (2): And so I did that and I still, so I did the communications and it was amazing and I loved it.
11:35
Holly Cardamone (2): But then I wasn't the heart stuff.
11:38
Holly Cardamone (2): So it was funny'cause I was working, um, in government and, uh, went back and did writing literature and, you know, you get the call from upstairs and I'd be saying, I'm sorry minister, I can't write that speech right now.
11:50
Holly Cardamone (2): I need to get to my poetry class, but I'll do it tonight.
11:53
Holly Cardamone (2): And, um, you know, like this.
11:55
Holly Cardamone (2): And I, that felt almost like a revolutionary act to do that.
11:59
Holly Cardamone (2): And, but that's where it was.
12:01
Holly Cardamone (2): It was amazing.
12:01
Holly Cardamone (2): I was writing speeches and um, briefing notes during the day.
12:05
Holly Cardamone (2): Then at night mucking around with metaphors, like spending three days on two lines of a poem.
12:09
Holly Cardamone (2): And it was just amazing.
12:11
Madeleine Cleary: So, um, after, so after doing these degrees, what, what were you writing while you were doing these degrees?
12:17
Madeleine Cleary: Like how, where, how did you start?
12:18
Madeleine Cleary: I know you've dabbled in lots of short stories and you've found lots of success.
12:22
Madeleine Cleary: So what came first?
12:22
Madeleine Cleary: Was it the short stories or the getting into the novel writing?
12:25
Holly Cardamone (2): Um, a bit.
12:26
Holly Cardamone (2): It was a bit of both.
12:27
Holly Cardamone (2): And the funny thing is I took three months off work to go to Italy to write a novel that, um, had been, you know, floating around the periphery for years, as we all have.
12:37
Holly Cardamone (2): Um, and this is the days when your, your laptop was like, it was heavy.
12:41
Holly Cardamone (2): So it was, um, it was 20, 21 years ago actually.
12:45
Holly Cardamone (2): Uh, it was dragging this brick of a laptop around Italy and around southern Italy.
12:50
Holly Cardamone (2): And I was there for, um, a month in The south of Italy.
12:53
Holly Cardamone (2): And what I, I had this amazing notebook that I'd bought, scribbled everything in that descriptions, all the, you know, like the sight and smells of Italy.
13:01
Holly Cardamone (2): I went up to Venice for a couple of days.
13:03
Holly Cardamone (2): I was coming back on the train.
13:05
Holly Cardamone (2): I stopped in Rome to change trains and to have some food.
13:08
Holly Cardamone (2): And I was sitting there and I just thought, oh my God, I'd left my notebook on that train and it was gone.
13:15
Holly Cardamone (2): It was gone.
13:15
Holly Cardamone (2): And so that sort of, um, that, that had me, that was devastating.
13:22
Holly Cardamone (2): Like losing and,'cause I'm, I, I'd emailed myself fractions of it and like little, basically an outline and some scenes and things like that, but nothing like a hundred pages of amazing description and,
13:35
Madeleine Cleary: The novel.
13:36
Madeleine Cleary: So you've, you lo you lost that,
13:38
Holly Cardamone (2): I left it.
13:38
Holly Cardamone (2): on a train and I spent a decade thinking, this is gonna turn up somewhere if anyone can read my writing.
13:44
Holly Cardamone (2): Oh, it's just ridiculous.
13:46
Holly Cardamone (2): And, um, so that sort of put a, a, that made it come to a bit of a grinding Hal.
13:50
Holly Cardamone (2): And then, you know, I was, um, not even a year later, I, I met my, um, my husband and then came family and, and work and, you know, I had a, for the last, uh, decade I've had a communications consultancy.
14:04
Holly Cardamone (2): But, um, even before that I was, you know, heading up communications departments and, you know, having a couple of babies in there as well.
14:10
Holly Cardamone (2): So, you know, your creative writing takes a, um, a lower priority to the, sometimes to the other.
14:18
Holly Cardamone (2): It's, it's an indulgence more than a necessity in many, many ways, which is, you know, a sad way of looking at it.
14:23
Holly Cardamone (2): So I wrote somewhere in between.
14:25
Holly Cardamone (2): I wrote the first draft and a 30 day fever, and literally.
14:28
Madeleine Cleary: days.
14:29
Holly Cardamone (2): 30 days.
14:30
Holly Cardamone (2): So I was doing, um, you know, each, he who shall not be named anymore, but it was basically an American, um, global phenomenon where every month, uh, every November, every day, uh, people around the world would write 1600 words a day, and that's 50,000 words of a draft novel.
14:47
Holly Cardamone (2): So I, I took part in that and for me.
14:49
Holly Cardamone (2): My youngest daughter, I think was three or four.
14:52
Holly Cardamone (2): So it was a way to be creative and, and to get back into it, I'd missed it.
14:56
Holly Cardamone (2): And I'd been reading lots and I'm thinking, you know, you know that feeling like that twitchy sort of feeling.
15:00
Holly Cardamone (2): You've got stories that need to come out.
15:02
Holly Cardamone (2): And so I wrote chunks of it, um, by hand next to the trampoline, you know, while she's played.
15:09
Holly Cardamone (2): But I'd learn my lesson in Italy.
15:10
Holly Cardamone (2): So I'd come in and then type them all up and add, add it to it.
15:13
Holly Cardamone (2): And that was my first draft of somewhere in between.
15:15
Holly Cardamone (2): And then it literally sat in a box on my, um, bookshelf for six years.
15:21
Holly Cardamone (2): But it was always there, it was always speaking to me like, this is a really cool story.
15:24
Holly Cardamone (2): There's some real good bones here.
15:25
Holly Cardamone (2): And um, yeah.
15:28
Holly Cardamone (2): And then 2020 I, um, you know, what happened in 2020 and I thought I'm gonna have a bit of time here.
15:34
Holly Cardamone (2): Didn't have time.
15:34
Holly Cardamone (2): My business absolutely exploded'cause people had space in their own lives to think about their own stories and how they want to be to telling their own stories, their own content.
15:42
Holly Cardamone (2): And so my business was really, really busy.
15:44
Holly Cardamone (2): So that took a bit of a, um.
15:47
Holly Cardamone (2): You know, writing, again, took a bit of a backseat, but this time I wasn't gonna let go of it and dedicated time in the following year to really polish this first draft and make it something worth exploring.
16:00
Madeleine Cleary: So do you still hand write
16:03
Holly Cardamone (2): I start most things hand.
16:05
Holly Cardamone (2): I do, I, I, I like a scribble.
16:07
Holly Cardamone (2): If I'm feeling a little bit stuck, um, I will literally get out the pen and paper and have a bit of a, um, bit of a, a, either an outline.
16:15
Holly Cardamone (2): Um, most things start with a scribble, even like the, uh, book I'm working at the moment.
16:20
Holly Cardamone (2): Uh, the whole plot is scribbled on index cards
16:25
Madeleine Cleary: Wow, Holly just.
16:26
Madeleine Cleary: Held one up then.
16:27
Madeleine Cleary: That's amazing.
16:29
Madeleine Cleary: Do you think there's something about writing, handwriting the plot, particularly when you're trying to work out what the story is that helps slow down your mind?
16:38
Holly Cardamone (2): Absolutely.
16:39
Holly Cardamone (2): And there is, um, there is science behind creativity and handwriting when you Think about it.
16:45
Holly Cardamone (2): We haven't been using keyboards for that long, really.
16:48
Holly Cardamone (2): Um, and so.
16:49
Holly Cardamone (2): our brains approach a pen and paper completely differently than the way we do, the way we connect to a keyboard.
16:57
Holly Cardamone (2): And what, um, I tell clients when they're struggling to get the words out, get off your keyboard and just try scribbling, see what happens.
17:06
Holly Cardamone (2): And that's normally when things get unlocked.
17:08
Holly Cardamone (2): And for me, even outlining, I feel more comfortable outlining on a blank piece of paper than I ever could in spreadsheets.
17:15
Holly Cardamone (2): I hear about these authors creating these amazing spreadsheets of every scene and every
17:19
Speaker 9: Hmm.
17:20
Holly Cardamone (2): I look at a spreadsheet and I like, even now I can see my shoulders just, but they just give me the ick because they're very constrained.
17:26
Holly Cardamone (2): Whereas a a blank sheet of paper, there's this space for you just to scribble and, and I think maybe'cause it's so, um, you know, it doesn't really exist.
17:34
Holly Cardamone (2): You could lose it.
17:35
Holly Cardamone (2): All these things happen.
17:36
Holly Cardamone (2): Like there's, there's less, it doesn't have to be perfect.
17:39
Holly Cardamone (2): It can be literally that, um, that flow of consciousness from your brain.
17:42
Holly Cardamone (2): So if I'm ever stuck on a scene, I will literally get out a blank bit of paper, put a circle, and then try and figure it out on paper.
17:50
Madeleine Cleary: Mm.
17:51
Madeleine Cleary: So you've got this story then in a box and also typed up now, so
17:56
Holly Cardamone (2): Yeah.
17:56
Holly Cardamone (2): Yes.
17:56
Holly Cardamone (2): Fucked up and printed twice
17:58
Madeleine Cleary: printed twice and have, had you gone back at all or was that the first draft?
18:02
Madeleine Cleary: A very early draft.
18:03
Holly Cardamone (2): No, that was the first draft.
18:05
Holly Cardamone (2): And so in 2020, uh, it was actually 2019, I met up with a new client.
18:10
Holly Cardamone (2): And this is, you know, the world famous alley and.
18:12
Holly Cardamone (2): We just happened to, she happened to mention she had an, uh, a novel sitting in a box and I said, I've got a novel.
18:18
Holly Cardamone (2): And we made an agreement that to go and, and to look at it for the next 12 months.
18:23
Holly Cardamone (2): And it was funny'cause I pulled it down, um, and read it and I thought, yeah, it was awful.
18:29
Holly Cardamone (2): And it was, you know, massive gaps of logic.
18:32
Holly Cardamone (2): You know, the ending was, you know, who knows what the, that ending was, but I could really see the bones in it and I could see this, um, this voice of this young woman.
18:41
Holly Cardamone (2): Um, you know, and I just knew that there was some really solid themes in there that I could play with and I could pull apart and, and tease out.
18:50
Holly Cardamone (2): And yeah, I, I really fell for it.
18:52
Holly Cardamone (2): I fell in love with it and I actually wrote a letter to it, which is as cringey as it sounds.
18:56
Holly Cardamone (2): And it was, you know, after I finished reading it, I, I just wrote, I'm sorry, I've neglected you.
19:00
Holly Cardamone (2): I, um, showed you a whole lot better, but this is what I love about you and, and, for me, and again, handwritten.
19:05
Holly Cardamone (2): Um, and that was.
19:07
Holly Cardamone (2): A way for me to affirm myself to it, but also it was almost like accountability, which is ridiculous because it's literally in a notebook that no one will ever see other than me.
19:17
Holly Cardamone (2): Um, but yeah, it just, it just felt amazing.
19:20
Holly Cardamone (2): It felt like there was something there and there was a light going off inside me.
19:23
Madeleine Cleary: Well, let's talk about the voice, because I think this is one of the massive strengths of the novel is Katerina's snarky teenage voice, which is just such a pleasure to dive into.
19:34
Madeleine Cleary: Um, can you talk about that?
19:35
Madeleine Cleary: Because obviously it's really, I think it's hard.
19:37
Madeleine Cleary: You know, being an adult, diving back into the teenage head, it's almost something like I would sometimes when I go over to my parents' place and house and stay over, I used to spend a lot of time like,'cause I would be coming from interstate and, and I'd feel like I was reverting back to my teenage self and I didn't quite like that.
19:55
Madeleine Cleary: So how did, how did you do that?
19:57
Madeleine Cleary: How did you go back into that and craft that voice?
20:00
Holly Cardamone (2): Look, there were a few things I did.
20:02
Holly Cardamone (2): I, um.
20:05
Holly Cardamone (2): I really didn't want this to be a moralizing or belittling or judgmental story for young people or about young people.
20:12
Holly Cardamone (2): I had playlists from that from the, um, you know, the late nineties, uh, early two thousands that, you know, basically the soundtrack to my own adolescence.
20:24
Holly Cardamone (2): And that helped me sort of jump into some of those emotions and feelings And, um, and in terms of the voice?
20:30
Holly Cardamone (2): the other thing I wanted for this character, I wanted, I didn't want her to be, um, you know, the perfect cheerleader, you know, bouncy, shiny head.
20:39
Holly Cardamone (2): Um, happy everyone loves her sort of character.
20:42
Holly Cardamone (2): I wanted to have a bit of backbone and for that backbone to get her in her way.
20:45
Holly Cardamone (2): And, you know, there's been.
20:49
Holly Cardamone (2): There has been some feedback about the likability of her and you know, there's two things about that.
20:53
Holly Cardamone (2): Like, number one, why do our girls have to be likable?
20:55
Holly Cardamone (2): Like we don't have those same sorts of criticisms leveled at male characters.
20:59
Holly Cardamone (2): But also, you know, when you think about some of your favorite characters from fiction, female girl characters, it's, you know, it's Jo from little Women.
21:08
Holly Cardamone (2): Like she was awful on paper.
21:10
Holly Cardamone (2): Um, Wednesday Adams, you know, like she's, you know, like more from pop culture but, and you know, there's nothing at all likable about her, but we love her'cause she's got that snark, Veronica, Mars, all these characters that have the snark and snark is where there's conflict, but there's also funniness with it.
21:27
Holly Cardamone (2): But there's also massive room to grow like we use.
21:31
Holly Cardamone (2): Um.
21:32
Holly Cardamone (2): Snark or sarcasm to as a shelter, as a defense.
21:35
Holly Cardamone (2): So I knew that if I had her have a bit of, um, a bite that it'd be hiding something and what could that be hiding and, and what other defense mechanisms does she have there and why does she actually have them there after all?
21:47
Holly Cardamone (2): Um, and in the first place.
21:49
Holly Cardamone (2): So that's where I went that with that, in terms of the voice and the man mannerisms in that first draft, like I only had small children when I wrote it, so their adolescence was a long, it felt like a long way away.
22:01
Holly Cardamone (2): But I've always been around, um, teens, like even, you know, yourself.
22:06
Holly Cardamone (2): Um, Madeline, when you, if you get on the train a little bit earlier than five o'clock, you're there with all the school kids and you hear the conversations they have and the way they describe people and um, and some of the terms of phrases they use and they're just hilarious.
22:19
Holly Cardamone (2): And.
22:20
Holly Cardamone (2): And, and poignant and, and, um, cutting and also generous and, you know, the things that, the way they speak about things can be really, really illuminating.
22:31
Holly Cardamone (2): And so what I would do as I was writing that was thinking like, you know, yes, this is, might, might have been how I spoke as a 17-year-old, how much has it, has it changed?
22:40
Holly Cardamone (2): Um, sometimes a language might change a bit, but I also didn't wanna create something that was full of slang that would date as well.
22:45
Holly Cardamone (2): So it was a bit of a balancing act and it was things like when I did finish.
22:50
Holly Cardamone (2): Uh, the second draft, I sent it to a friend who had teenagers and said, how relevant is this?
22:56
Holly Cardamone (2): And one of the things she picked up on, I had the main character sworn around the beach in a calf town, and she said, now a 40-year-old woman might do that.
23:04
Holly Cardamone (2): A teenager's not gonna do that.
23:07
Holly Cardamone (2): So it was those sorts of things.
23:08
Holly Cardamone (2): And you know, I said, asked her to ask her kids for a list of insults that teenagers use, and that was fun.
23:15
Holly Cardamone (2): Um, so yeah, it was, you know, connecting with kids now, or teens now.
23:20
Holly Cardamone (2): And also, you know, the, the elemental truths haven't changed for years of, of adolescents, and it's that time of growth and tumultuousness and all the, all the good stuff.
23:32
Madeleine Cleary: It's timeless, I think.
23:33
Madeleine Cleary: I absolutely adore looking Fowler brandy, like I'm a nineties kid.
23:37
Madeleine Cleary: That's something that I grew up with.
23:39
Madeleine Cleary: I think we studied it at school, so I totally read into that.
23:43
Madeleine Cleary: I think it's a very equal comparison.
23:45
Madeleine Cleary: So I think,
23:46
Speaker 2: my goodness.
23:46
Madeleine Cleary: amazing job, Holly.
23:47
Madeleine Cleary: Um, so I wanna talk about writing romance, um, Paul Light Wood.
23:53
Madeleine Cleary: The hotter than the hot as you described.
23:55
Madeleine Cleary: Kat calls him a surfing God.
23:57
Madeleine Cleary: Um, which in the end, you know, he, she, she, she does say this quite a bit and he sort of, you know, says, is this all you see?
24:03
Madeleine Cleary: I'm not justice.
24:04
Madeleine Cleary: He's a very complex character.
24:06
Madeleine Cleary: Um, you write the romance so beautifully and I think it's a hard skill to, to write romance.
24:13
Madeleine Cleary: Well, um, can you talk a little bit about your approach to that
24:17
Holly Cardamone (2): So the funny thing is, Madeline, I didn't actually know it was a romance until other people told me that
24:21
Speaker 11: really?
24:23
Holly Cardamone (2): But like I knew there was, um, I knew there was a relationship, like I just hadn't put that language around it.
24:28
Holly Cardamone (2): And I'm sure that's a bit of, um, ingrained snobbery from my masters.
24:34
Holly Cardamone (2): Uh, I, I know, in fact, I know that it is.
24:35
Holly Cardamone (2): And two years ago I didn't even know what a trope was.
24:38
Holly Cardamone (2): I didn't know what a trope was.
24:39
Holly Cardamone (2): And so it's funny'cause then people were reading my book and saying, oh my gosh, I love how you put this trope in.
24:44
Holly Cardamone (2): And I'd go, okay, what's that?
24:46
Holly Cardamone (2): And it was, um, it was really funny.
24:49
Holly Cardamone (2): But I think with, with young adult fiction and romance, it's all about the emotional truth of, of emo uh, of, um, scenarios and action.
25:00
Holly Cardamone (2): And like I'm thinking too about other, other genres and other genre fiction and even literary fiction whenever there's a sense of connection in there.
25:10
Holly Cardamone (2): Uh, what's the emotional truth behind that and what the, where the conflict comes.
25:13
Holly Cardamone (2): And so.
25:14
Holly Cardamone (2): In terms of how I tackled that romance, it was also things like, I, I wanted to be mindful that this is a young adult novel.
25:21
Holly Cardamone (2): There's that, but also that my mother would be reading it
25:24
Madeleine Cleary: mm
25:25
Holly Cardamone (2): and I wanted to be able to have eye contact with my family at Christmas and things like that.
25:30
Holly Cardamone (2): And the fact that, you know, my, I have teenage daughters and they'd be reading it, so I didn't want, um, I wanted to write something that is a, an option for them.
25:39
Holly Cardamone (2): And when I embraced the fact that it's a romance or, um, I went a lot harder on that.
25:44
Holly Cardamone (2): And so I thought, if these.
25:46
Holly Cardamone (2): Teens are gonna be reading this book.
25:47
Holly Cardamone (2): I want it to be, uh, respectful.
25:50
Holly Cardamone (2): I wanted it also to be realistic, but also, but have them something, have something to them for them to aspire to.
25:57
Holly Cardamone (2): So that concept that a young person Could still have massive dreams and not let a romance get in the way of that, that was really important to me.
26:04
Holly Cardamone (2): That message of, um, you know, the green flag male character and his growth and, you know, and, and the way
26:12
Madeleine Cleary: you explain what a green flag male character is?
26:14
Madeleine Cleary: Actually, Holly, because that's something I've heard a lot.
26:16
Holly Cardamone (2): Yeah, I think it's because we, we know all, we all know all about red flags.
26:20
Holly Cardamone (2): We know all about them.
26:21
Holly Cardamone (2): And, um, and there's been a lot.
26:22
Holly Cardamone (2): of literature about that, rightly so.
26:24
Holly Cardamone (2): Absolutely.
26:25
Holly Cardamone (2): And my book, um, I do have this green flag character, so that's basically the opposite of a red flag.
26:30
Holly Cardamone (2): So green flags are the things we should be looking for in the way people interact with us that makes us feel good about ourselves and that, um, that reflects that this person might feel good about themselves.
26:41
Holly Cardamone (2): So, uh, the op opposite of toxicity, I suppose, and with my character, he is the green flag and a sea of red flags.
26:50
Holly Cardamone (2): And so there's conflict there and tension like, is he loyal to his friends who are awful or, you know, is he loyal to himself?
26:58
Holly Cardamone (2): And I think that's possibly a struggle that, uh, that young teen boys actually have.
27:04
Holly Cardamone (2): Who do they model their behavior on?
27:06
Holly Cardamone (2): We know some of them and they're terrifying.
27:08
Holly Cardamone (2): So having an option there for, for girls to read, do the, um, that.
27:14
Holly Cardamone (2): That's more appropriate than some of the others that are out there.
27:17
Holly Cardamone (2): I think that's really important.
27:18
Holly Cardamone (2): We know on TikTok A couple of years ago, there was a massively, um, popular title out of America that's since become a movie and it was awful.
27:27
Holly Cardamone (2): Awful.
27:28
Holly Cardamone (2): Um, and you know, I wanted an Aussie story showing a relationship that is respectful, that it's romantic, it's in a setting that where it probably couldn't, shouldn't be.
27:40
Holly Cardamone (2): Um, but it is.
27:41
Holly Cardamone (2): So that's what I really wanted to cover with that.
27:43
Madeleine Cleary: A family that also supports and encourages it, which is really lovely.
27:47
Madeleine Cleary: And it's sometimes that's where the conflict comes.
27:49
Madeleine Cleary: It's like the family is saying, oh no, you can't date this person or this person.
27:54
Madeleine Cleary: But you know, they're really lovely and supportive family too.
27:57
Holly Cardamone (2): yeah.
27:57
Holly Cardamone (2): And that was important to me too.
27:59
Holly Cardamone (2): There's a lot of young adult fiction features, quite fractured family relationships and uh, and I didn't want that.
28:06
Holly Cardamone (2): I wanted her to have a family full of heart.
28:09
Holly Cardamone (2): Um.
28:10
Holly Cardamone (2): And a family that even her grandmother who drives her crazy, she still has her best interest at heart.
28:16
Holly Cardamone (2): And you know, and it's that conflict.
28:18
Holly Cardamone (2): And you know, Kat as a main character, she very much sees herself as a feminist, but she's never actually questioned what that means.
28:25
Holly Cardamone (2): She just sees it as opposite to what her grandmother is.
28:28
Holly Cardamone (2): But the chance for them to butt heads is a chance for Kat to explore her own sense of what feminism is and what it mean, what it could look like, and what it could mean for,
28:36
Speaker 9: Mm.
28:37
Holly Cardamone (2): for her.
28:37
Holly Cardamone (2): And also, you know, family, those family dynamics.
28:41
Holly Cardamone (2): Her parents are also a beautiful example of a respectful, romantic relationship that on paper might not make sense, but it does.
28:49
Holly Cardamone (2): So I really wanted her to have that role model as well.
28:52
Madeleine Cleary: Um, okay, so let's go back to, so you've just made friends with Allie.
28:56
Madeleine Cleary: Allie is your
28:57
Speaker 2: Yes.
28:57
Speaker 2: Oh my goodness.
28:58
Madeleine Cleary: and you've agreed that you're going, you've got 12 months that you're going to open up your old dusty boxes of your manuscripts and go through them.
29:07
Madeleine Cleary: So what happens then?
29:08
Holly Cardamone (2): So every month, and it's still in my calendar, there's a standing, um, date in there and it's right with Ellie.
29:15
Holly Cardamone (2): And we would catch up on Zoom, of course, for the first two years.
29:19
Holly Cardamone (2): Um, and we've had, um, and then when, you know, restrictions, ease, we'd start meeting at different places and we'd, um, you know, chat and laugh a whole lot more than we wrote.
29:29
Holly Cardamone (2): And, but yeah, I, I got through those.
29:31
Holly Cardamone (2): Um, the next two drafts, um, sent out for beta readers, got feedback out.
29:36
Holly Cardamone (2): then?
29:36
Holly Cardamone (2): I thought, okay, ready to pitch this thing, let's do it.
29:39
Holly Cardamone (2): I did the a SA speed dating, which was amazing, and I did a kid lit.
29:43
Holly Cardamone (2): Um, speed, uh, pitching experience as well.
29:46
Holly Cardamone (2): And so five pitches.
29:49
Holly Cardamone (2): I had four requests for, for further materials, which is amazing.
29:52
Holly Cardamone (2): And then I had four, um, beautifully kindly worded, thanks, but no thanks.
29:59
Holly Cardamone (2): Um, so, and I knew something was wrong in the first 30 pages, like I knew it here in my gut, but I also knew that, um, and the, some of the feedback I was getting back was, um, you, your writing's really strong, but it's not quite there.
30:11
Holly Cardamone (2): And so I sent it for an assessment with writer Victoria manuscript assessment, and that's an anonymous, um, process, which I really liked.
30:18
Holly Cardamone (2): I didn't want, um, anyone that I knew looking at my work or that even if I knew superficially through social media or anything like that, I really wanted that blind process.
30:28
Holly Cardamone (2): And that was amazing.
30:29
Holly Cardamone (2): It came back with a, um, you know, like a four page report showing me exactly where I'd gone wrong.
30:34
Holly Cardamone (2): And a lot of it was confirming what I already knew.
30:37
Madeleine Cleary: what were some of the things in the report?
30:38
Madeleine Cleary: Do you remember?
30:40
Holly Cardamone (2): Look, um, hi, I am Holly and I'm an info dumper.
30:44
Holly Cardamone (2): So there was a lot of that.
30:45
Holly Cardamone (2): So the front end, like it started, you know, started to slowly, um, you know, nothing, there was no conflict until, um, you know, I need to bring that forward.
30:55
Holly Cardamone (2): Um, I needed to strengthen the, the, I suppose the conflict between Captain and Paul as well, so have him not be like, bite back a little bit'cause she's quite hard on him.
31:07
Holly Cardamone (2): So he needed to stick up for himself a little bit more.
31:10
Holly Cardamone (2): And part of that was fleshing him out a lot, um, and also expecting a lot more of him.
31:15
Holly Cardamone (2): And, and so creating that, that fully fleshed character of him.
31:19
Holly Cardamone (2): Um.
31:21
Holly Cardamone (2): It was also building the family relationships a lot more for her.
31:24
Holly Cardamone (2): So there was that, you know, that toss and, uh, that tug and pull, you know, that's in a, you know, like in a normal, don't wanna use the word normal, that that's in a family.
31:33
Holly Cardamone (2): So there's always conflict, but there's also love and, you know, the banter and all that sort of stuff.
31:38
Holly Cardamone (2): And to also increase some of the, the themes go a little bit harder on them, but without being too heavy handed,
31:46
Madeleine Cleary: That's excellent advice.
31:47
Madeleine Cleary: You must have just read this four page report and just gone, ding, ding, ding.
31:50
Madeleine Cleary: This is
31:50
Holly Cardamone (2): uh, I, I did, and it was funny because I, I, uh, got it at the end of November, first week in December, Ellie and I ran away to Phillip Island for a weekend to write.
32:00
Holly Cardamone (2): And I, my plan for those three days was to.
32:03
Holly Cardamone (2): Make a plan of attack for the, from the manuscript assessment and actually get started.
32:07
Holly Cardamone (2): I literally sat there for three days wailing, like, where do I begin?
32:11
Holly Cardamone (2): Where do I start?
32:12
Holly Cardamone (2): You know, like, you know, and it was, um, I don't know how Ellie put up with me for those three days, but it was basically, um, you know, like, uh, I spent three days making a plan of attack rather than actually getting any work done.
32:23
Holly Cardamone (2): And I think there is, there's that sense of overwhelm sometimes.
32:26
Holly Cardamone (2): Like it was amazing.
32:26
Holly Cardamone (2): I could see it, but it was also meant I was gonna have to take the red pen and just go slush slash slash slash across slabs upon slabs of copy.
32:35
Holly Cardamone (2): And, um, and it's scary sometimes.
32:38
Madeleine Cleary: it is scary.
32:39
Madeleine Cleary: And I, I think it's really good though, to take those three days where you just go, oh my God, oh my God, how am I gonna do this?
32:45
Madeleine Cleary: Because your brain starts ticking.
32:46
Madeleine Cleary: You are like, oh, I can, I can do this.
32:48
Madeleine Cleary: You gotta trust the process.
32:49
Madeleine Cleary: Um, so, and this, this is a manuscript too that has now been with you for how many years
32:55
Holly Cardamone (2): Well, oh gosh, how many years So I had been sitting at my desk for six years.
33:01
Holly Cardamone (2): Um.
33:03
Holly Cardamone (2): been, I've been working on it basically since June 21.
33:06
Holly Cardamone (2): So, and this was November 22 that I got the, um, manuscript.
33:10
Holly Cardamone (2): So a year and, and a lot of thinking about it.
33:12
Holly Cardamone (2): And also, you know, it was that concept I was about to turn 50 in 2023.
33:18
Holly Cardamone (2): So with these big milestone birthdays, you know, there's all that reflection and that sense of what have I done with my life?
33:24
Holly Cardamone (2): Look at my choices, what have I done?
33:26
Holly Cardamone (2): I've done nothing.
33:27
Holly Cardamone (2): You know, like, just the ridiculousness of it.
33:29
Holly Cardamone (2): So, and I think that was part of my, um, you know, great meltdown of December 23 was thinking like, how have I got another year of not publishing a novel, not working on my craft, not, um, you know, deprioritizing it.
33:44
Holly Cardamone (2): So when I look at this timeline of what it took for when I wrote this first draft through to when it actually landed in my hand, I could be filled with self-loathing.
33:53
Holly Cardamone (2): Um, but you know, we need to be kind, but ourselves as well.
33:56
Holly Cardamone (2): And, you know, recognize that.
34:01
Holly Cardamone (2): It's not a priority sometimes and it can't be, you know, it's for, you know, not just moms, but like there's, I'm sure you've had these days that you're in your calendar, they're looking at you like a beacon.
34:12
Holly Cardamone (2): You can't wait to get to that day'cause that's your writing day.
34:15
Holly Cardamone (2): You are gonna do all these amazing things from between nine and three.
34:18
Holly Cardamone (2): And if you're anything like me, Madeline, you're gonna do half of it at cafe.
34:21
Holly Cardamone (2): So at least someone's bringing you food that you don't have to make yourself and all these amazing things.
34:26
Holly Cardamone (2): And then a phone call will happen or an email or land and straight away your priorities have to shift.
34:31
Holly Cardamone (2): And the resentment that can come from that, um, it's valid.
34:35
Holly Cardamone (2): So I think it is important to acknowledge that.
34:38
Holly Cardamone (2): Um, I know I'm a much nicer person when I've written.
34:42
Holly Cardamone (2): A much nicer person when I've met my own promises to myself.
34:45
Holly Cardamone (2): And, um, and I think there's part of that so that, that long time between that first draft and then getting it actually finished and on the shelves, like, you know, it's, I should be proud of it rather than resentful.
34:59
Holly Cardamone (2): So depending on what day it is, I veer between those two.
35:02
Madeleine Cleary: That's so interesting, Holly.
35:04
Madeleine Cleary: We are so hard on ourselves and particularly as women too.
35:08
Madeleine Cleary: Um.
35:09
Madeleine Cleary: I was actually thinking how amazing it is that you've gone through this journey of, of really working on your craft.
35:17
Madeleine Cleary: Um, you've gone and you've done your master's degree, you've got your writing bestie.
35:21
Madeleine Cleary: You've made a commitment every week to meet up with a, a writing friend due to, to work on this.
35:27
Madeleine Cleary: You are running your own business.
35:28
Madeleine Cleary: You've got two kids, busy, busy life, and COVID as well in Melbourne at the time, but you've gone and produced this book, like for, as an outsider watching in Holly, I'm amazed at what you've achieved, and I'm so surprised to hear that at your 50th.
35:43
Madeleine Cleary: You're like, what have I done with my life?
35:45
Holly Cardamone (2): And that's, um, and it's funny when you hear it laid out like that in dot points, that's when I can, um, you know, go be a little bit, um, give myself a little bit more grace.
35:54
Madeleine Cleary: Mm.
35:55
Madeleine Cleary: You should, you should.
35:56
Madeleine Cleary: I think we all should.
35:57
Madeleine Cleary: And do you know, it's something actually Tina said to me too, she's, when you said that you are a better person after you've written that day, um, Tina is the same.
36:06
Madeleine Cleary: She has to get, that's why she gets up at four 30'cause to write because if she doesn't do it, she knows that she'll be feeling this, grating feeling in her, in her soul that she hasn't fulfilled a particular task for the day.
36:18
Madeleine Cleary: But no, Holly, you should be very, very proud of what you, and I heard actually for your 50th birthday, you gifted yourself a marathon run.
36:26
Speaker 2: did.
36:27
Madeleine Cleary: What?
36:29
Holly Cardamone (2): Yeah.
36:30
Holly Cardamone (2): Um, yeah.
36:31
Holly Cardamone (2): When you say it out loud like that, it is as ridiculous as it sounds.
36:34
Holly Cardamone (2): No, for me that was something about, um, look, before I had kids, so I was, I was 32, so I was, you know, sort of on the upper edge of, um, when I met my husband.
36:47
Holly Cardamone (2): So for my 40th, my plan for decades was to do the Camino in, in Spain.
36:54
Holly Cardamone (2): So when I turned 40, I had two small kids, so that wasn't going to happen.
36:57
Holly Cardamone (2): And when I turned 50, I had, you know, older kids, but I'm still not gonna leave them for four weeks.
37:02
Holly Cardamone (2): But I wanted something to mark that time that was, you know, quite physical.
37:05
Holly Cardamone (2): Something that was, um, an acknowledgement of, um, of my strength.
37:11
Holly Cardamone (2): I suppose.
37:12
Holly Cardamone (2): This sounds really pretentious, but that's, I suppose that's what it is.
37:15
Holly Cardamone (2): And I have a, um, one of my beautiful, beautiful friends, Jackie, um, she is someone who inspires me every day.
37:21
Holly Cardamone (2): This is a woman who write runs ultra marathons, so she'll disappear up to Cannes and run 180 kilometers.
37:28
Holly Cardamone (2): And through the bush and things like that.
37:30
Holly Cardamone (2): So I just said to her, I wanna do something.
37:32
Holly Cardamone (2): And two years before that, you know, as part of the lockdowns, I did a, um, half marathon and I did that with my older daughter.
37:38
Holly Cardamone (2): And, and that was amazing, just the training process of that.
37:42
Holly Cardamone (2): And, you know, the connection that, that built between the two of us, like running for hours beside each other and the, and the chats that we had.
37:49
Holly Cardamone (2): So we did the Melbourne half Marathon, then we did the Gold Coast half.
37:53
Holly Cardamone (2): And, um, I just said to Jackie, I feel like there's more in me.
37:55
Holly Cardamone (2): What do you think?
37:56
Holly Cardamone (2): But I'm turning 50.
37:57
Holly Cardamone (2): And she said, it's all in your head.
37:59
Holly Cardamone (2): Here's a plan.
38:00
Holly Cardamone (2): And I'm, I love a plan, so literally on this date, do this.
38:04
Holly Cardamone (2): And so having someone to tell me what to do and just to do it, I really loved.
38:08
Holly Cardamone (2): And so, and that's what I did.
38:10
Holly Cardamone (2): And it was, it was an incredible process to cross, um, you know, to train for four months.
38:16
Holly Cardamone (2): It's a big ass, you know, there'd be four, four hours on a Saturday that I'd be trudging along next to the Yara.
38:22
Holly Cardamone (2): Being overtaken by all these, um, youngs felt things.
38:25
Holly Cardamone (2): And there's me, um, trudging along, but crossing that, um, finish line, you know, my family was there.
38:32
Holly Cardamone (2): They're holding up a sign that says, my mum runs faster than yours.
38:35
Holly Cardamone (2): Like basic.
38:36
Holly Cardamone (2): Um, time will tell you that's not true, but it was, yeah, it was amazing feeling of achievement and achievement knowing that, um, you can do anything.
38:44
Holly Cardamone (2): And that's the thing, like writing a novel is massive.
38:46
Holly Cardamone (2): It's huge.
38:47
Holly Cardamone (2): It's putting your bum in a seat for, you know, months upon, months upon years.
38:53
Holly Cardamone (2): And this felt very similar.
38:55
Holly Cardamone (2): It was that you're doing something for no reason, no one's making you do this, but that sense of joy and achievement and accomplishment that comes with that, it's, it's a real buzz.
39:04
Madeleine Cleary: Yes, you already connected my Yes, I, the marathon running and the prep and the training with, with writing a novel.
39:11
Madeleine Cleary: I think they're both very similar traits, so I, I'm not surprised.
39:15
Madeleine Cleary: There's probably quite a few writers perhaps that are also marathon runners.
39:18
Madeleine Cleary: 'cause it's that commitment, dedication to craft and
39:21
Speaker 2: Yeah,
39:22
Madeleine Cleary: Um, okay.
39:23
Madeleine Cleary: So you have got this, advice back from the manuscript assessment.
39:28
Madeleine Cleary: You've obviously gone and you've revised your manuscript.
39:31
Madeleine Cleary: You've had a few, people interested, you've.
39:34
Madeleine Cleary: Had a few rejections as well.
39:36
Madeleine Cleary: So what's next?
39:37
Holly Cardamone (2): so what's next was I, um, I entered it in the Hawkeye Prize, basically just put it there and I thought, I need to work on something else.
39:48
Holly Cardamone (2): This one story has occupied my brain now, um, you know, not including the years that sat, you know, dormant on my shelf, but for.
39:57
Holly Cardamone (2): You know, years, three years that it occupied my every creative thought and I thought, I need to do something else, so I need to do something fun.
40:04
Holly Cardamone (2): And so Ellie had introduced me to Romance Writers of Australia, and, um, I went along to their conference feeling like a real fraud because, um, you know, as I said, I don't write romance, but, um, I don't know what a trope is.
40:17
Holly Cardamone (2): But I went along and I was sitting there and they have these anthology competitions and they talk, you know, they put a prompt up on the screen and straight away, I just had this image in my head that just flowed.
40:26
Holly Cardamone (2): And it was, um, the theme was bubbles.
40:28
Holly Cardamone (2): And I just wrote about a team bonding, you know, from my, um, my government put days, you know, when they'd send you on these team bonding thing excursions, and they're always excruciating.
40:39
Holly Cardamone (2): This one, I made an obstacle course and it was just really fun.
40:42
Holly Cardamone (2): And I thought, now literally on the plane driving home, uh, flying home, I, I wrote out this story and I thought.
40:47
Holly Cardamone (2): That's right.
40:48
Holly Cardamone (2): Writing's supposed to be fun.
40:49
Holly Cardamone (2): It's not just literally attached to an outcome.
40:52
Holly Cardamone (2): Um, and then I thought about this novel that I'd started in Italy and I just thought, let's have a go with a short story with that.
40:58
Holly Cardamone (2): Take the pressure off.
40:59
Holly Cardamone (2): We don't have to do a hundred thousand words here.
41:00
Holly Cardamone (2): Let's just bang out 3000.
41:03
Holly Cardamone (2): I wrote those 3000, sent it to Ali and she said, um, this actually feels like a novel.
41:09
Holly Cardamone (2): And I said, yeah, it's probably still on a train going backwards and forwards between Venice and Rome.
41:15
Holly Cardamone (2): Um, and I did that.
41:16
Holly Cardamone (2): I sat down and I thought, okay, you know what?
41:18
Holly Cardamone (2): And I got out my index cards.
41:20
Holly Cardamone (2): I pulled out What I could remember of this story from these fragments of emails that I'd sent to myself.
41:25
Holly Cardamone (2): And, you know, so much had changed in that time myself, even as a writer and my growth.
41:30
Holly Cardamone (2): And, um, and I wrote a romcom and I just thought there was no, nothing attached to it.
41:35
Holly Cardamone (2): It was just the pure joy, joy of writing.
41:38
Holly Cardamone (2): And it was also in the midst of, gosh, a thunderstorm of grief.
41:43
Holly Cardamone (2): I lost both of my aunties within a month of each other, my mom's sisters.
41:47
Holly Cardamone (2): Um, I lost my best friend.
41:48
Holly Cardamone (2): And so diving into this world of, um, southern Italy and, um, romance and, you know, all the fun stuff, it was just a bomb.
41:58
Holly Cardamone (2): And in, when I finished writing that, I again sent it off to one of the romance writers of Australian con, um, competitions.
42:06
Holly Cardamone (2): And in the meantime I heard back from saying, you've been long listed.
42:11
Holly Cardamone (2): And I thought, oh, that's lovely.
42:12
Holly Cardamone (2): You know, that's nice, isn't it?
42:14
Madeleine Cleary: do you wanna tell us a little bit about Hawkeye development Price?
42:16
Holly Cardamone (2): Yes, of course.
42:17
Holly Cardamone (2): So I, when I enter competitions, and by the way I'm saying that sounds like I've entered thousands.
42:26
Holly Cardamone (2): I haven't, but I always go for the ones that give a bit of feedback.
42:29
Holly Cardamone (2): Um.
42:31
Holly Cardamone (2): And I don't mind paying for them.
42:32
Holly Cardamone (2): I think it's something that, you know, you get if you're getting something back for that, from that entrance fee.
42:37
Holly Cardamone (2): And if it's something that's supporting a creative organization or business, I think that's worthwhile.
42:42
Holly Cardamone (2): So the Hawkeye Man script development prize, it's, um, a prize where they're looking for new Australian voices.
42:49
Holly Cardamone (2): So stories that might be a little bit, um, maybe not different, it's not the right word, but like, it's, it's not tied to genre.
42:55
Holly Cardamone (2): So it's, there's not a lot of restrictions in what you are, what you're doing.
42:58
Holly Cardamone (2): There are some, they, there are some, um, genres that they don't publish in, but it gives you feedback and that's what I was really after.
43:06
Holly Cardamone (2): So I'd had my manuscript assessment and I'd rework this novel to the best of my ability.
43:12
Holly Cardamone (2): And then I just thought I need a break from it.
43:13
Holly Cardamone (2): And I, I really liked the look of that competition because,'cause of the feedback elements, but also some of the authors that they'd published, I really like, um, the vibe of them.
43:22
Holly Cardamone (2): And so when I heard I'd long listed, that was amazing.
43:24
Holly Cardamone (2): That was like a real sense of validation after so many.
43:28
Holly Cardamone (2): You know, knock backs and things like that.
43:30
Holly Cardamone (2): And then shortlisted.
43:31
Holly Cardamone (2): That was the ugly tears when I was picking up my kids.
43:34
Holly Cardamone (2): I thought someone else in our family had died because it was like that for a while there.
43:39
Holly Cardamone (2): Um, and then I won and it was just, and the best thing about um, the win was just, you know, it was, it is, it's the stuff of dreams like when your work that you love so much and you can't help but put part of your own heart and soul into this.
43:55
Holly Cardamone (2): And it's something that's taken you away from other things.
43:58
Holly Cardamone (2): And you know, when you are told repeatedly that it's not bad, but it's not quite good enough then to be told, actually, you know what we think we'll award this surprise.
44:08
Holly Cardamone (2): Yeah.
44:09
Holly Cardamone (2): It was just gobsmacking.
44:10
Madeleine Cleary: Uh, that validation, it's so common, such a common story when writers get that first thing of validation.
44:16
Madeleine Cleary: And, and also I think it helps, and it's really sad and it's a really bad thing, but a lot of emerging writers feel this sense of guilt for taking their time away from their family.
44:25
Madeleine Cleary: 'cause ultimately that's what writing does.
44:27
Madeleine Cleary: It does take us away from family and friends and loved ones.
44:30
Madeleine Cleary: Um, because often we are riding in the cracks.
44:32
Madeleine Cleary: We're not, we're we're doing other things and we've got day jobs and we're trying to fit in riding.
44:37
Madeleine Cleary: And it is, it, it is such a, a worthwhile thing, isn't it?
44:40
Madeleine Cleary: When you get that phone call.
44:41
Madeleine Cleary: What was it like, like when you found out, how did you find out when
44:45
Holly Cardamone (2): I was actually having breakfast with a girlfriend who, um, who was my manager many years ago.
44:50
Holly Cardamone (2): And, you know, there was a missed phone call and I just ignored it.
44:53
Holly Cardamone (2): And then, um, you know, how often do we get voicemails these days we don't.
44:57
Holly Cardamone (2): So we were, I was driving home and um, and then I heard the, you know, it was, it was someone from Hawkeye saying, can you.
45:04
Holly Cardamone (2): please give us a call back?
45:06
Holly Cardamone (2): And I pulled over and my first thought was, oh, this is really lovely.
45:09
Holly Cardamone (2): There's only five people in the short list.
45:11
Holly Cardamone (2): They're obviously ringing us all to say that, you know, thanks for entering, um, so and so is one, but, you know, thanks so much.
45:18
Holly Cardamone (2): Have a nice day.
45:19
Holly Cardamone (2): So I pulled over and it was that, um, saying, yeah, just letting you know that you've won the whole kind.
45:25
Holly Cardamone (2): I was, I did the whole, sorry, what?
45:27
Holly Cardamone (2): Not, and I think I lapsed into Italian for a bit there.
45:30
Holly Cardamone (2): I know.
45:30
Holly Cardamone (2): I swore.
45:31
Holly Cardamone (2): Um, and I just burst into tears on the side of the road in the South Melbourne.
45:35
Holly Cardamone (2): It was just amazing.
45:36
Holly Cardamone (2): And then, you know, rang the husband and said, you are not gonna believe this, but blah, blah.
45:40
Holly Cardamone (2): And then rang mom and dad.
45:41
Holly Cardamone (2): Yeah.
45:42
Holly Cardamone (2): It was just, you know, that feeling, It's amazing.
45:44
Holly Cardamone (2): So like I've got all the goosebumps just thinking about it.
45:47
Holly Cardamone (2): And that was just the prize.
45:48
Holly Cardamone (2): Like there was no guarantee of publication from that.
45:51
Holly Cardamone (2): And you know, that's something that it plains to say as part of your entrance.
45:54
Holly Cardamone (2): Um, this isn't a, um, publication prize that might happen.
45:58
Holly Cardamone (2): But, um, and then when they offered me the contract, the best, part about that, I think I was actually with Ally on one of our writing dates.
46:06
Holly Cardamone (2): In the cafe.
46:07
Holly Cardamone (2): And I'd been whinging to her saying, it's been six weeks since I've heard from Hawkey let this, the structural edit's done, which was part of my prize, was this structural edit.
46:18
Holly Cardamone (2): They don't want it.
46:19
Holly Cardamone (2): If they wanted it, they'd be, you know, I would've heard it's all over.
46:22
Holly Cardamone (2): And then um, she was reading something and I just checked my email and sure enough there was a publishing contract and I just screamed and I just held my phone in her face and she couldn't see what I was,'cause you know, like waving my hand around.
46:33
Holly Cardamone (2): And then she said, can you just stop, let me read it.
46:35
Holly Cardamone (2): And then she said, they're giving you a contract.
46:38
Holly Cardamone (2): And I said, I know.
46:39
Holly Cardamone (2): And we just screamed and we cleared this entire cafe courtyard'cause we were so excited.
46:43
Holly Cardamone (2): And you know, the barista came out to see what was going on and you know, they don't care.
46:48
Holly Cardamone (2): But yeah, we was hugging and it was just, you know, it was just that perfect sort of moment to have her with me when that email came through
46:55
Madeleine Cleary: something so symbolic and special about that, isn't it?
46:58
Holly Cardamone (2): So special.
46:58
Madeleine Cleary: Like you, you guys have committed to each other that you would do this, and then years later you've got that contract.
47:03
Madeleine Cleary: That is incredible.
47:05
Madeleine Cleary: That's your marathon moment, isn't it?
47:07
Madeleine Cleary: But the marathon keeps going after you sign the publishing contract.
47:11
Madeleine Cleary: So I wanna talk about that.
47:13
Madeleine Cleary: And particularly you have, um, an amazing background in communications.
47:17
Madeleine Cleary: You were talking earlier about the fact that you've grown this, this business and help people tell their stories and um, sort of get their brand out there in an authentic way.
47:26
Madeleine Cleary: Um, now you sent this really interesting post in our debut crew 2025 chat, which I was like, oh, I have to talk to Holly about this.
47:35
Madeleine Cleary: You said that you had a pre-launch strategy in mind.
47:40
Madeleine Cleary: I wanna hear everything about what you did to talk with booksellers, book talkers, all the sort of strategy behind it.
47:49
Holly Cardamone (2): Look, the thing is, I think what a lot of people get hung up on, particularly in our debut crew, is, um, the pressure for this one book to do well.
47:58
Holly Cardamone (2): And of course, the pressure's there, we want our debuts to do well, but we also need to recognize that our, our whole profile isn't about that one title.
48:07
Holly Cardamone (2): It's about a, hopefully a legacy of titles.
48:09
Holly Cardamone (2): Um, title after title after title.
48:11
Holly Cardamone (2): We're building a brand based on ourselves as authors rather than these individual books that we have.
48:17
Holly Cardamone (2): Um, and so, and a lot of that was my strategy.
48:21
Holly Cardamone (2): And we know from communications, any business people buy from people they like, they buy from people they.
48:28
Holly Cardamone (2): They know, or they feel like they know, they buy from people they trust.
48:32
Holly Cardamone (2): And you know, trust is something that's so, um, it can be really tenuous.
48:37
Holly Cardamone (2): So if you can go into something and for me, like go into this concept of becoming an author rather than, um, a communication specialist, it was all about, um.
48:46
Holly Cardamone (2): Being someone that is reflective of what you see on the screen.
48:52
Holly Cardamone (2): What you see in my Instagram is what you'll see when you meet me at a party, um, or book event and things like that.
48:58
Holly Cardamone (2): And it's, and it's something that's, um, it, it's not mercenary.
49:02
Holly Cardamone (2): And I hope what I come at, what I say now doesn't feel mercenary because it is about selling books, obviously, uh, as one of the byproducts.
49:09
Holly Cardamone (2): But we are going to be in this industry for a long time.
49:13
Holly Cardamone (2): You know, that's what we want.
49:14
Holly Cardamone (2): We're not, we very few of us write a book just to write that one book.
49:18
Holly Cardamone (2): And so it makes sense to be part of a community that's supportive, but also one that you can support.
49:24
Holly Cardamone (2): And that's where, um, I really wanted to spend this year leading into my publication year.
49:30
Holly Cardamone (2): Being one where I could really cement and, um, solidify connections that I've built over time online and bring that into the real world space.
49:39
Holly Cardamone (2): And that has just been the biggest gift.
49:41
Holly Cardamone (2): And originally when I was offered the contract, it was for a 2026, um, publication date, but then it was brought forward.
49:48
Holly Cardamone (2): So, um, and I wasn't worried at all'cause I knew I had these amazing connections of people who I've supported and who would support me.
49:57
Holly Cardamone (2): And, and it's based on a genuine connection and a genuine, um, shared love of writing and of love of Aussie authors as well.
50:06
Holly Cardamone (2): And I think that's been, I, I know for a fact that's been a massive contributor to any of the success that I've achieved.
50:13
Holly Cardamone (2): And that, um, and that Hawkeye, my publisher is, is experienced, is because of these amazing connections, like with people like yourself.
50:21
Holly Cardamone (2): Like it's just what a gift.
50:24
Madeleine Cleary: That's so, so, okay.
50:26
Madeleine Cleary: But give us some practical tips though, as well, Holly.
50:29
Holly Cardamone (2): Um, so obviously like I know social media, um, has its ills and I have, you know, I stopped using Instagram two years ago for my business because of those ills.
50:40
Holly Cardamone (2): As an author as a debut author from a quite a niche small publisher.
50:45
Holly Cardamone (2): I'm never ever gonna be on morning TV for this, for this young adult novel of
50:51
Madeleine Cleary: Well, you never know when it's picked up for a big movie
50:54
Holly Cardamone (2): Then maybe I'll, Yeah.
50:55
Holly Cardamone (2): I'll get a little bit more love once at Hemsworth grabs a hold of it or something.
50:59
Madeleine Cleary: it actually would make a fantastic movie.
51:01
Madeleine Cleary: So I'm, I'm
51:02
Holly Cardamone (2): would.
51:02
Madeleine Cleary: in the cards.
51:04
Holly Cardamone (2): Um, but so social media is one of those tactics that we actually have access to.
51:08
Holly Cardamone (2): Um, you know, like that doesn't cost money.
51:11
Holly Cardamone (2): That can be really, really powerful if you are using it effectively.
51:15
Holly Cardamone (2): And, uh, by that I mean using it to build relationships.
51:18
Holly Cardamone (2): So it's not as an advertising platform, it's a, it is, it's the social, um, part of the name sort of gives away what it's for.
51:26
Holly Cardamone (2): So using features like the DM feature in Instagram to really get to know people.
51:31
Holly Cardamone (2): So using stories.
51:32
Holly Cardamone (2): Um, so when you are looking at people's stories, engage with them.
51:35
Holly Cardamone (2): Don't just like them, um, write a comment back if it's in a way that's meaningful, not just for the sake of um, you know, getting your name out there.
51:44
Holly Cardamone (2): 'cause people can smell that a mile off.
51:45
Holly Cardamone (2): I have that quite a bit, you know, in both my author brand as well as my business.
51:51
Holly Cardamone (2): Um, but it's that building relationship over time and expecting that slow burn and.
51:58
Holly Cardamone (2): So That's, one part of it.
51:59
Holly Cardamone (2): So social media, the bookseller strategy for me, like I do, I feel icky even calling it a strategy, but at bare bones, that's what it is.
52:06
Holly Cardamone (2): I knew that, um, for me as a, an author from a, a smaller publisher, I would need to do some hard yards.
52:15
Holly Cardamone (2): And as a control freak, I was quite happy about that.
52:17
Holly Cardamone (2): But what that meant was I, in, so eight weeks before my book came out, which was the July school holidays, I went and visited 37 bookstores in four days.
52:26
Holly Cardamone (2): Not, not consecutively on different days.
52:29
Madeleine Cleary: a very impressive fate
52:31
Holly Cardamone (2): Well, what that.
52:32
Holly Cardamone (2): was, that was a chance for me to give them my author information statement.
52:38
Holly Cardamone (2): A IS currently, yeah.
52:39
Holly Cardamone (2): Uh, and about my book, but basically eyeball, booksellers, say, this is who I am, this is what my book's about.
52:47
Holly Cardamone (2): Um.
52:48
Holly Cardamone (2): I'm gonna be here with you for the long term.
52:50
Holly Cardamone (2): So, you know, let's, let's get to know each other basically.
52:53
Holly Cardamone (2): And then what that meant was, was when, um, Hawkeye's distributor sales rep came in, they already knew me.
53:00
Holly Cardamone (2): They, they said, okay, so you've met Holly, what did you think?
53:04
Holly Cardamone (2): Um, hopefully it was positive.
53:05
Holly Cardamone (2): Uh, so it was building that relationship that's then reinforced.
53:09
Holly Cardamone (2): And when you think about any sort of communications, it takes, you know, up to eight touch points for someone to actually recognize a brand.
53:17
Holly Cardamone (2): Years ago it was three, but now it's up to eight.
53:19
Holly Cardamone (2): It's probably more than that.
53:20
Holly Cardamone (2): So, you know, it's that recognition over time of, of a person and of a vibe.
53:26
Holly Cardamone (2): And then, so that was eight weeks out, four weeks out, I did, um, another, just this time it was an email saying, hi, it's Holly here.
53:34
Holly Cardamone (2): I met you in July.
53:36
Holly Cardamone (2): You might remember me, um, know this, my book's coming out in four weeks.
53:39
Holly Cardamone (2): I'm getting really, really excited.
53:40
Holly Cardamone (2): I'd love to organize to catch up with you when it comes in.
53:44
Holly Cardamone (2): And then publication that, that, that's when I'd go, yay, it's here.
53:48
Holly Cardamone (2): And, uh, already at that time it was, it was a, a real beautiful feeling, um, straight away with those.
53:56
Holly Cardamone (2): It was wasn't even out for another eight weeks.
53:58
Holly Cardamone (2): They already had orders coming in for it.
54:00
Holly Cardamone (2): And, and it's because no one can, I'm gonna get emotionally.
54:04
Holly Cardamone (2): No one will sell your work the way you can because you believe in it and you love it.
54:08
Holly Cardamone (2): And I'm sure there's some, uh, elements of belligerence that can be attached to that.
54:12
Holly Cardamone (2): But when you have a genuine, passionate passion for what you do for a book like me, I know it's perfect for teens who aren't interested in fantasy.
54:20
Holly Cardamone (2): Um, it's also come at a time when we know reading rates are plummeting with teens.
54:26
Holly Cardamone (2): So this is an option.
54:27
Holly Cardamone (2): That they will, like if it's thrust upon them.
54:30
Holly Cardamone (2): Um, and some of the best feedback I've had is when people have told me they've got the book for themselves and their child has taken it off their bedside table to read like, what, what an amazing response.
54:44
Holly Cardamone (2): I've had people message me to say they're not natural readers, but they've loved it.
54:47
Holly Cardamone (2): They've missed their tram stop.
54:49
Holly Cardamone (2): 'cause they just had to keep reading.
54:50
Holly Cardamone (2): And, you know, that to me is such an amazing feeling.
54:53
Holly Cardamone (2): And I know that's come a lot from my social media, but also from booksellers.
54:57
Holly Cardamone (2): They're, they're connecting with my story.
55:00
Holly Cardamone (2): They can, connecting with me, I suppose, as a, a person as well.
55:03
Holly Cardamone (2): And that makes it easy for them to put a book in someone's hands.
55:08
Madeleine Cleary: We cannot underestimate the importance of booksellers hand selling books, um, particularly, you know, especially after that first month when you get that sort of buzz and then it's, you know, things start to slow down a bit.
55:22
Madeleine Cleary: The only way that your book is going to sort of be in the hands of readers, future readers is, is by the booksellers themselves and they're incredible people.
55:31
Madeleine Cleary: What, so when you set up those meetings, um, I'm assuming you contacted them in advance and organized that you didn't just drop in?
55:39
Madeleine Cleary: Or did you do a mixture?
55:40
Holly Cardamone (2): So it was the eight week ones.
55:42
Holly Cardamone (2): I, I just dropped in because it was, um, you know, it was eight weeks away and I went first thing.
55:48
Holly Cardamone (2): So, um, there was maybe one or two that I went at lunchtime'cause I, you know, like knew that these people are busy.
55:53
Holly Cardamone (2): And so I went first thing in the morning.
55:55
Holly Cardamone (2): So it was the first thing, you know, well, the first couple of hours of opening, so, which I know are generally quite, if they had people there, I just hovered.
56:04
Holly Cardamone (2): I just waited.
56:04
Holly Cardamone (2): Like I was never gonna push myself way in.
56:07
Holly Cardamone (2): Um, and I was always with that sense of.
56:10
Holly Cardamone (2): Here I am.
56:11
Holly Cardamone (2): Here's this.
56:12
Holly Cardamone (2): Happy to chat if you want to.
56:14
Holly Cardamone (2): If you're busy, I'll nick off.
56:15
Holly Cardamone (2): And, and that's what happened.
56:16
Holly Cardamone (2): A couple of people were really flat chat and so I just, you know, acknowledged that I could see you busy.
56:21
Holly Cardamone (2): Um, here if you need, like, I've never, ever played netball, but I know that's a thing.
56:27
Holly Cardamone (2): Um.
56:28
Holly Cardamone (2): And so, but then other people, like I, there was a couple of bookstores.
56:32
Holly Cardamone (2): I sat, stood there for 20 minutes chatting and it was amazing and wonderful.
56:36
Holly Cardamone (2): I had people hugging me, congratulations, this is your debut.
56:39
Holly Cardamone (2): Well done.
56:39
Holly Cardamone (2): You know, a couple of them had seen, um, elements of it in, um, the distributors comms.
56:45
Holly Cardamone (2): It was, you know, what's coming out.
56:47
Holly Cardamone (2): So it was vaguely familiar to them, but also having, um, having a really tight log line or, you know, like, you know, the looking for Allie Brandy meets puberty, blues, whenever I say looking for Allie Brandy, particularly to book people, their eyes light up like it was.
57:02
Holly Cardamone (2): For me personally, look, I was in my twenties when that came out.
57:05
Holly Cardamone (2): That was the first time I saw myself on the page as an attorney Australian.
57:08
Holly Cardamone (2): So look, I had that connection to it.
57:11
Holly Cardamone (2): And so it didn't matter who I was speaking to in a bookstore.
57:13
Holly Cardamone (2): As soon as I said that title, their eyes lit up.
57:16
Holly Cardamone (2): Um, people of a different demographic.
57:18
Holly Cardamone (2): Um, when I said puberty, blues, a lot of people were familiar with the story, but people under um, 30 are familiar with the recent Netflix series and how big that was.
57:28
Holly Cardamone (2): So it immediately had that sense of connection, uh, both in terms of, uh, other books, but also TV and movies.
57:36
Holly Cardamone (2): Obviously.
57:36
Holly Cardamone (2): The, um, the 25th anniversary of looking for rally brandy was last month.
57:40
Holly Cardamone (2): Uh, so it was having that, you know, very, very, very clear this is who it's for.
57:44
Holly Cardamone (2): And also this is what it's not, it's not a fantasy.
57:47
Holly Cardamone (2): It's not another, it's not a young adult title that's a fantasy.
57:50
Holly Cardamone (2): This is contemporary.
57:52
Holly Cardamone (2): Uh, it's romance, it's coming of age, it's set on a Aussie beach.
57:56
Holly Cardamone (2): And that is also a bit of a, um.
57:59
Holly Cardamone (2): It is, it's a selling point because we want Australian beach stories.
58:03
Holly Cardamone (2): We love Australian beach stories.
58:04
Holly Cardamone (2): So that makes it an easy sell.
58:06
Holly Cardamone (2): And obviously I'm not a bookseller, but my, my feeling is we want to acquit them to book selling must be the fun part of it.
58:15
Holly Cardamone (2): Like, you know, like meeting people, ask them what they want, you know, what kind of book you are looking for.
58:18
Holly Cardamone (2): Oh my God, have you read this?
58:19
Holly Cardamone (2): Like, that feels like the fun part.
58:21
Holly Cardamone (2): So the more we can equip them with, um, words I suppose, and titles that can help them do their jobs like that.
58:28
Holly Cardamone (2): What a buzz that is.
58:29
Madeleine Cleary: That's awesome, Holly.
58:31
Madeleine Cleary: Great advice.
58:32
Madeleine Cleary: And that's about sort of really nailing what your brand is, I suppose, and what your product is that you're trying to sell.
58:38
Madeleine Cleary: Like I know you said before like you're getting a bit of an ick talking about strategy, but we shouldn't.
58:43
Madeleine Cleary: Kanick, I don't think because this is a business and it's, it's their business too.
58:48
Holly Cardamone (2): Yeah, and like strategy and strategic, uh, like, you know, I didn't just go around bookstores.
58:54
Holly Cardamone (2): This was within a, an Asana, um, project, basically against categories.
58:59
Holly Cardamone (2): So I had categories of all these different communications elements that I was going to apply to this.
59:04
Holly Cardamone (2): Particularly when haw I brought my publication date forward.
59:07
Holly Cardamone (2): I thought I'd have a nice 12 months of going to events, chatting to people, you know, you know, very relaxing.
59:15
Holly Cardamone (2): But then suddenly, you know, it was brought forward.
59:16
Holly Cardamone (2): So I knew I needed to be a lot more strategic about it.
59:19
Holly Cardamone (2): So it's all in Asana.
59:21
Holly Cardamone (2): It's all has, um, dates attached to it, um, you know, steps and actions against all of it.
59:26
Holly Cardamone (2): So, you know, it is strategic, I think when it's those human elements of building connection.
59:31
Holly Cardamone (2): Like, I never ever want anyone to think that the only reason I've reached out to them at an event or on Instagram is because I think they're gonna sell my book or buy my book.
59:39
Holly Cardamone (2): So I think it, you know, like it needs to be deeper than that.
59:42
Madeleine Cleary: Anyone who knows you, Holly knows that you're a beautiful, wonderful industry citizen, and, and you're part of our community.
59:49
Madeleine Cleary: And I think all of us are here to, you know, push each other up as well.
59:53
Madeleine Cleary: Like, we're not in it just for ourselves.
59:55
Madeleine Cleary: We're building, we're part of culture, aren't we?
59:58
Madeleine Cleary: And building culture and, and getting our Australian stories out there.
1:00:01
Madeleine Cleary: So,
1:00:01
Holly Cardamone (2): That's it.
1:00:02
Holly Cardamone (2): And, and I think that's, you know, all of our friends, and I know that you are, um, a demon for this.
1:00:06
Holly Cardamone (2): When you see a friend's book at a bookstore, if it's not facing out, you are not scared to do a little bit of rearranging.
1:00:12
Holly Cardamone (2): And you know, this, that stealthy gorilla marketing almost.
1:00:15
Holly Cardamone (2): And how fun is that?
1:00:17
Holly Cardamone (2): I had a little spot of that, um, at Chad Vegas last week.
1:00:20
Holly Cardamone (2): I was there and I saw some friends' titles and I thought, oh, we're just gonna make you look a bit prettier here.
1:00:25
Holly Cardamone (2): So, and it is, it's supporting each other.
1:00:27
Madeleine Cleary: We are, we we're each other's cheerleaders, I think.
1:00:30
Madeleine Cleary: And that's, that's why we are on Instagram.
1:00:32
Madeleine Cleary: That's why I am still on Instagram, even though I absolutely despise it.
1:00:36
Madeleine Cleary: But I love it for the connection in the community and being able to celebrate people's wins as well.
1:00:41
Madeleine Cleary: It's so great.
1:00:42
Madeleine Cleary: Not to say that there's not jealousy out there, of course there's jealousy, but ultimately this is what our community's about.
1:00:49
Madeleine Cleary: Now, before we, I ask you the final question, which is about the top tip, your top tip for, um, writers.
1:00:56
Madeleine Cleary: Um, I do wanna, I just wanna stress on that point about.
1:00:59
Madeleine Cleary: Um, engaging with Booksellers, um, and what, um, you are telling them about your book.
1:01:04
Madeleine Cleary: Because I had this experience recently where I was in a Dimick store, and this, the book Amazing Books Booksellers, this is at Dimick Perran.
1:01:13
Madeleine Cleary: They asked me, they were putting together a spreadsheet for Christmas with a whole bunch of titles, and it's, it's very organized and systematic that, um, that they're gonna recommend for Christmas, um, during the Christmas period and in their columns there, there.
1:01:28
Madeleine Cleary: So it's the title, what's it like, what's the book like, and how do you, how can you explain it in like three to four words?
1:01:35
Madeleine Cleary: Um, and that's really what they, all they need, they just need, you know, what is this?
1:01:39
Madeleine Cleary: So they asked me that question like, oh, we're filling in our spreadsheet now.
1:01:42
Madeleine Cleary: Can you tell us what this is?
1:01:44
Madeleine Cleary: So you have to come prepared for that.
1:01:45
Madeleine Cleary: So I suppose really, really think, um, about how you sell that.
1:01:50
Madeleine Cleary: So I think what I said for the Butterfly women was something like, um, Jack the Ripper meets Jane Austen.
1:01:55
Speaker 2: perfect.
1:01:56
Madeleine Cleary: That's all they needed.
1:01:57
Madeleine Cleary: I didn't have to explain what the book's about at all.
1:02:00
Holly Cardamone (2): And I think that's a really interesting concept because what you're talking about there basically is the vibes of the thing as from that famous movie and so not so much what it is.
1:02:09
Holly Cardamone (2): So it's not a, just a murder mystery, but, um, creepy, thrilling, um, deliciously creepy.
1:02:15
Holly Cardamone (2): Like the more you can put sort of personality and passion for how you're describing something that is not the, not the actual what of it, but the value that it brings in terms of your feeling as a reader or your experience as a reader.
1:02:27
Madeleine Cleary: And that's why bringing in movie titles and, and Netflix series like that actually works.
1:02:32
Madeleine Cleary: That that helps them to, that, that ultimately that we all want it the same outcome.
1:02:36
Madeleine Cleary: We want that, that customer to buy the
1:02:38
Holly Cardamone (2): And we want people reading.
1:02:39
Holly Cardamone (2): And I think if it's a link between, um, especially for teens, like I'll talk to teens about outer banks, which was um, which is a Netflix series that immediately they connect to.
1:02:50
Holly Cardamone (2): And the reason I use that as a bit of a comp title is because if they like that, whether it's banging soundtracks and these, you know, fabulous teen characters, I like my novel with the bonfires on the beach as well.
1:03:01
Speaker 9: Hmm.
1:03:02
Holly Cardamone (2): Immediately a visual picture that they can connect to, which then is an easy sort of link between that and my book.
1:03:08
Madeleine Cleary: Yes.
1:03:08
Madeleine Cleary: Yes.
1:03:09
Madeleine Cleary: And they'll, every time they look at your title, they'll go, oh, this is like looking Fowler brandy.
1:03:12
Madeleine Cleary: So then they can just hand sell that over.
1:03:14
Madeleine Cleary: They'll be like, oh, this is beach vibes.
1:03:16
Madeleine Cleary: That's all they, they won't remember like the long description of the book at all.
1:03:21
Madeleine Cleary: They won't remember the detail, but they'll remember those small things.
1:03:23
Madeleine Cleary: So this is great advice.
1:03:24
Madeleine Cleary: Alright, top tip, Holly.
1:03:28
Holly Cardamone (2): Top tip.
1:03:28
Holly Cardamone (2): There's so many, but I think for me, and it's just based on what we were chatting about before, the minute you feel stuck in any way with your creativity, get out a blank piece of paper and a pen and scribble, uh, just muck around.
1:03:41
Holly Cardamone (2): Have fun with it because this is where it is.
1:03:43
Holly Cardamone (2): It's the fun, it's the creativity.
1:03:45
Holly Cardamone (2): Like when we are kids writing stories, we never, ever go straight to the keyboard.
1:03:49
Holly Cardamone (2): Um, hopefully that's still the case in primary schools, but it always starts off as a of a, uh, when, you know, when we're really little, it's those scrapbooks and things like that.
1:03:58
Holly Cardamone (2): So start with a piece of paper and a pen and see how that feels in terms of unlocking your creativity.
1:04:05
Madeleine Cleary: That is a great tip and that worked for me in my most recent issue as well.
1:04:09
Madeleine Cleary: I was like, I'm gonna just put this onto pen and paper.
1:04:12
Madeleine Cleary: Had never done that before and it's amazing how
1:04:14
Speaker 2: Did you.
1:04:15
Speaker 2: like the feeling
1:04:16
Madeleine Cleary: It felt really nice.
1:04:18
Speaker 2: good.
1:04:18
Madeleine Cleary: and, and really different, different as well.
1:04:21
Madeleine Cleary: 'cause I've never really done that before.
1:04:22
Madeleine Cleary: But, um, it makes sense I think to, to just slow down the brain and really think through the connections and the story.
1:04:30
Madeleine Cleary: So that's a great tip.
1:04:32
Madeleine Cleary: Summer in Between is out in all good bookshops.
1:04:35
Madeleine Cleary: It is a brilliant book.
1:04:37
Madeleine Cleary: I think your teens will love it, but also I think you as adults will really enjoy diving back into it.
1:04:43
Madeleine Cleary: So, do pick up a copy and if you're in Melbourne, I'm sure you can get it signed by Holly as well.
1:04:48
Madeleine Cleary: So thank you so much Holly Cardamone for coming on the book Deal podcast.
1:04:52
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.
1:04:53
Speaker 2: That was so much fun.
1:04:55
Madeleine Cleary: you.
1:04:55
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1:04:58
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1:05:03
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1:05:12
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