Latest / Adult Child of Dysfunction / E 383: When Loving Your Parents Hurts: Boundaries, Guilt & Going No Contact with Dr. Sharon Martin

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E 383: When Loving Your Parents Hurts: Boundaries, Guilt & Going No Contact with Dr. Sharon Martin · Adult Child of Dysfunction

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  hello, everybody.
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  Welcome back to another episode of Adult Child of Dysfunction.
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  Today, I wanna actually start with a question before we even get started, because this is a topic that I have Oh, my goodness, it's one that comes up with me and my clients, and just so many people in
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  the world of adult children of dysfunctional families all of the time.
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  And the question is, what if the relationship you're trying so desperately to salvage is with the very people that hurt you in the beginning?
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  What do you do?
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  So I have people all the time say to me, "Maybe if I could just communicate more," or, "Maybe if I was more forceful," or, "Maybe if I was more forgiving," or, "Maybe if I had more boundaries," or whatever
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  it is.
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  Maybe if I try just one more time, we can finally have that relationship that we wanted all the time.
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  But then nothing really changes, right?
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  Sometimes it just doesn't.
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  That's the way it is.
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  And then you start thinking about pulling back, limiting contact, going no contact sometimes even, and then what happens?
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  The guilt kicks in, and you start wondering, "Am I a bad son, a bad daughter?
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  What if I regret this?
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  Can w- are they still even my parents?"
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  Like, all these questions run through your mouth.
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  Today Run through your mouth.
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  Run through your mind.
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  Today that is what we are actually talking about today.
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  Today my guest is Dr.
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  Sharon Martin.
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  She is a licensed psych- psychotherapist and author, and with more than 25 years of experience.
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  She wrote Cutting Ties With Your Parents and The Better Boundaries Workbook, and she has spent years working with adult children who are struggling with the exact question- And what I really kinda like about this, I write- reading your
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  bio, Sharon, doctor s- do you wanna go by Dr.
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  Sharon, Dr.- Sharon is fine.
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  Okay.
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  But what I really like about this is that you have a different approach.
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  So it's not about telling everybody to just cut 'em off and move on with their lives, it's about recognizing that we can spend years, honestly, trying to change our parents, or we can actually flip the script a little
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  and start controlling the things that we can actually control.
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  And so I'm very excited to have this conversation.
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  So welcome.
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  Thank you.
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  Thank you.
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  I'm super passionate about this topic as well, so I'm really happy to be here, so thank you for having me on.
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  And yeah, I'm looking forward to us getting into it here.
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  Yeah, it is, because it's one of the questions people always ask.
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  I heard it my whole life.
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  Even when from starting as a teenager, people would say to me, I- 'cause I would say things like, "I can't wait to get out of this house.
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  I will probably never speak to my mother again."
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  And I wasn't kidding.
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  And I had to go with that, "Oh, she's your mother.
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  She didn't m- mean to.
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  She blah, blah, blah."
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  And I was like, "Oh, my goodness."
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  And so it became a topic that we talked about a lot and s- like I said all of my clients talk about it or question it.
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  But let's start and dive right in and talk about some of the misconceptions about estrangement, 'cause I know a lot of people think it is so cut and dry.
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  Yeah.
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  And there's lots, so let's try to stay on point here, Tammy.
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  But, I think there's a couple of big ones that we see a lot these days.
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  One sort of false narrative is this idea that adult children are just cutting off their parents with no good reason, over something minor, it was an impulsive decision.
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  So we've got this idea like they're overreacting, they're having this really big really definitive decision about something that could have been resolved and it, it just misses the point.
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  I'm sure you see this with your clients.
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  This is what I hear from my clients, and this is what all of the research shows as well, is the complete opposite, which is adult children agonize over this decision.
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  They truly want to do everything possible to avoid estrangement.
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  They want to stay engaged with their family.
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  They don't want to cut off their parents.
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  There's so much pressure around that, and we can talk about that piece later on as well.
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  But really, I see people trying and trying to make it work, probably well pa- past the point where most people would say, I think you've given it your best here.
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  You've tried," literally for years.
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  These are issues that are not just happening for people in adulthood.
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  It's not just the argument you had last week with your mother.
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  For my clients, this goes back to childhood.
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  It's variations of the same themes, perhaps slightly different scenarios now that you're an adult, but it's essentially, the same kinds of abuse, manipulation gaslighting, scapegoating, disrespect.
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  All those kinds of things that have, like I said, they've been going on for years.
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  So that's certainly one misconception is that people are just doing this without having giving it much thought.
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  And I think the other part of it is, to your point about people thinking about this as being something that's cut and dry.
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  It's like we're estranged or we're not estranged, when the reality is most people are in this gray area, or most people who we're dealing with, this struggle is they're in this gray area where it might be I have
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  low contact for a while, and then something happens and I reestablish contact, or I'm intentionally giving it another try, and then something goes poorly and I pull back.
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  Or it could be I've cut off contact completely for a couple of years and then again, something has shifted either internally or in the family or in the world and there's a reason that you're going back.
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  And so a lot of times it's an on and off with the estrangement, not, certainly there are people who have gone no contact and stay that way for many years or forever sometimes.
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  But for a lot of people it's a back and forth, which I think has its own challenges because there's not sort of the stability in that.
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  You don't know what to expect.
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  You're not really sure how to move forward because maybe we're gonna reestablish contact or maybe we'll work something out at some point.
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  So you're really left in in a limbo around it, I think.
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  Yeah, I'm gonna, I'll let you comment since it was your- No, I was gonna say, and I feel like that instability is w- half the problem of being a child.
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  That was half the problem of the child was that instability, that uncertainty.
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  So you would think, and again, depending on the circumstances I would think it would be much easier.
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  There wouldn't be so much angst connected to it if it was really bad.
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  But what do you think keeps those children or adult children at this point- Yeah coming back and hoping and holding on to that that belief or that dream of this perfect relationship or even a, any kind of relationship?
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  Some sort of functional relationship.
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  We have such a strong, really innate connection to our parents or our caregivers that starts, out of a biological necessity when we're small and we depend on our parents.
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  When we establish some sort of attachment to them, even if it's not a secure attachment, there's an attachment there.
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  And again, it can be almost striking how much, even as adults, we crave our parents' love, attention, approval.
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  That never goes away.
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  And again, going back to some of the misconceptions, a lot of times people wanna say you're an adult now.
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  You don't really need your parents."
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  But from that emotional standpoint, it is really just as strong for people in adulthood to want that from their parents.
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  And so that's definitely one string that just gets pulled over and over again, is, I want my parents to love me, I want them to acknowledge me, I want them to see me for who I really am, to
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  accept me, to be proud of me.
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  And when you have never gotten that, you're left in this pattern of constantly seeking it from your parents.
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  And then we also often try to seek it out from other people because we're not getting it from our parents.
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  We've missed this core need being met, right?
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  So that often r- comes up in other relationships that we have in our life as well.
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  But that sort of sets us up, unfortunately, when there's a dysfunctional family, it has set us up for going back, seeking something from somebody who has probably, possibly shown us already that they're not going to give it to
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  us.
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  They're not capable perhaps, or they're withholding.
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  There's some dynamic going on there, so that is not going to happen for us.
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  But again, like emotionally we can't let go of it, and so we keep going back, and that's where we see people really just putting up with such abusive behavior, toxic behavior, harmful behavior from their parents seeking that.
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  And then I think that the other part of this is that when you've grown up in a dysfunctional or abusive family, the, the harmful behavior becomes so normalized that you sometimes don't realize just how bad it is.
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  Because again, that's all you've known.
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  That's what you've experienced with your parents.
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  And again you certainly grow up into adulthood and you have more life experience, you have more examples of what healthy or unhealthy relationships are, and sometimes that's what starts making the shift for people is they get new information
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  and they start to have a realization.
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  And this is sometimes what happens when people go to therapy, and this is unfortunately- why we see therapists getting blamed for estrangement is sometimes what happens when you go to therapy is you start learning about what is a
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  healthy relationship and your eyes start to open.
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  You start to realize, wow, this family situation is a lot more dysfunctional or a lot more abusive than I even realized because I've just been putting up with it because I thought it was normal and/or my family has
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  been telling me, "You're overreacting.
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  This isn't a big deal.
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  This isn't abuse.
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  Why don't you just, come back and, play your part in the family?"
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  And the whole, you only got one set of parents and all of this kind of stuff.
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  And so we basically like bought into this, manipulation essentially which has convinced us that the family isn't as toxic or abusive as it truly is.
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  So that's the other thing that just keeps people in there is this idea that, if only I try hard enough, it's me, it's not the family- dynamic or it's it's not the abuse that's going on here.
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  Somehow it's like if I could just change something about myself, get a thicker skin, not be so reactive to it something along those lines, then things would be better.
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  Or the, even the other way around I was thinking too, like that I, I can wrap my head around.
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  But the other aspect of it, of okay, I'm older now so now I can set boundaries and I won't let them talk to me that way, and I'm gonna start this over on my terms.
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  How does that go?
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  And certainly in that, I think that is a healthy idea.
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  And I'm sh- real big on the boundaries as well, and I think those are really important relationships skills that we all need to have.
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  But probably most people know from listening, if you've started to try to set those boundaries with your family, they're met with so much resistance.
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  And again, this is often a place where, the blame essentially gets shifted back onto you that you're doing something wrong.
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  You're being mean or you're being too difficult or something like this where again, it's just, it's intended to guilt you or shame you into a position of backing off and just going with whatever your role has been in
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  this family.
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  Families are systems, and like any other kind of system there's this sort of unconscious force that's trying to keep everybody in the family in place.
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  So if you step out of line and start setting boundaries or saying, "Hey, there's some problems in our family," or, "You're mistreating me," everybody else in the family is going to work really on keeping you going on and
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  operating the way that it always, has always operated.
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  It does not want to change.
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  That's not to say that it can't ever change and people can't ever change, but it's hard when you're in a really en- entrenched family system that has built itself around often protecting one or more people in the family
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  who are doing the abusive behavior or the real harmful toxic stuff.
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  And those are the people that they don't wanna, they don't wanna change.
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  They're not capable of change.
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  And then we've got these other people who, sometimes we say they're enablers or some other role in the family that again just is allowing it to continue.
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  So it's really hard to be the person who is over here setting the boundaries and trying to do something different.
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  It's absolutely, I think, part of the process for people is, before you're gonna go to a s- a place of stepping away from your family, obviously you are going to try to use all of the communication skills and
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  all of the boundaries and, all of the, the coping strategies that you can to try to make it work.
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  And that's what that's what I see people doing is, really trying and trying, and it just being so frustrating that it just kinda breaks you down over time.
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  Just it's beating your head against the wall is like you're trying every trick that you can come up with and finding all of the resources and reading all the books and going to therapy.
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  But so- sometimes the problem is not you I think is the bottom line.
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  That's not to say that you don't have a part in it or there isn't something that you could change about yourself would be beneficial to your own wellbeing, but sometimes you alone are not enough to change that whole
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  family system.
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  Exactly.
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  Exa- and you, the other person on the other side has to be willing to look at their part, and that is the hardest part of any dysfunctional relationship in general is that whole self-reflection thing.
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  And if they haven't self-reflected in 26 years or 30 years and been able to say, "Oh, maybe.
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  Maybe you're, it's, maybe it's not your therapist.
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  Maybe there's a reason you're in therapy, and maybe I had a little small part in that," and that's, that's hard for anybody obviously.
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  But what do you say to people that are really just- really struggling with the guilt and the shame of, "I don't speak to my mom anymore and I'm okay with that," but d- aren't really okay with it in
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  their heart and soul?
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  Yeah.
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  One, one thing I would say is try to protect yourself from whatever outside messages, influences are reinforcing that idea.
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  So if it's on social media or it's a particular person in your life that is telling you're doing something wrong, try to protect yourself from that so you're not continuing to get barraged with the guilt and the shame
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  from the outside.
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  And then we can work with it from the inside, which is trying to understand why it is that we're feeling guilt and shame, and then being curious about whether that's really valid in the situation.
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  Oftentimes the guilt is coming from unrealistic expectations that people have set for us and our behavior.
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  And again, these blanket ideas that, family should come first or family is forever or something along those lines where we have been told that you need to be loyal and you need to, respect your parents or s- take
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  care of your parents in their old age.
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  These are expectations that, we often have without even realizing how strong they are or where they come from.
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  We haven't really investigated You know, do these reflect my values and my particular situation?
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  Are they realistic in my situation?
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  Are they healthy for me?
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  Because a lot of times these are based on either things that I would say are unrealistic expectations for adult children to do, things that are "We're always supposed to do this.
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  We're never supposed to do that," without any nuance in them.
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  And then they're also often based on the assumption that you're dealing with a healthy relationship, that you've got a functional family situation going on.
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  So if we were to set expectations for adult children understanding that they are coming from a situation where they're, repeatedly being hurt or abused by their parents or family members, we would probably set a really different expectation.
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  But nobody's really pausing and, stopping to, consider that.
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  And I think there's so much resistance, just from society that we don't want to acknowledge how much harm and abuse happens in families, and I think that's where it really comes out in this way when we see how
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  much guilt and shame is heaped onto people, especially adult children in these situations.
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  Certainly there's a long way to go with victims of other kinds of abuse and harm but, I've certainly seen over the years that when we think about people who've maybe gotten a divorce or even people who have been
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  victims of a sexual assault, I feel like there's increased awareness around that it's not okay to blame the victim essentially.
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  And yet when it comes to family estrangement, we've still got this really strong blaming the victim mentality going on that is feeding into this guilt and shame really strongly to say, "It can't possibly be that they're being mistreated.
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  It must be something about the adult child that they're doing wrong, and so they must be the problem.
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  And so let's blame them, and let's make them s- feel so lousy about cutting off contact that they're going to go back."
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  And of course it's a completely ridiculous notion that, again, if you've shamed me so badly that I'm going to go back to my parents, like that's gonna be the setup for a healthy relationship either.
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  'Cause, nobody coming, being in a relationship out of guilt and shame, it, it's just obviously the opposite of what, you're...
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  It's not a foundation for a healthy relationship, but anyway, I think it certainly speaks to how intense the pressure is for people to reconnect, and perhaps, part of that's why we see so much back and forth for people
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  about second-guessing their decisions and then going back and thinking, "Oh, let me give it one more try, and one more try, and one more try."
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  Some of that is probably because of all of that messaging that they're getting from everyone around them.
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  Sometimes it's people really close to them.
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  Other family members often are the strongest voice in pushing them back.
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  Yeah, and it's funny because I remember I was just talking to a lady the other day, and she was talking about all the crap she was getting from her family and her friends and everything else, and I w-
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  I literally was like, we've been talking about this for months.
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  Did your friend ever even know what it was like when you were growing up?"
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  And she's like, "No."
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  I was like, "So your friend is literally throwing you back into something that she kn- encouraging you to go back because there was so much guilt and shame and secrecy to begin with in what the situation was like."
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  So- Yeah I kinda, I was like you can't blame your friend for thinking, oh, it was a normal health- healthy, happy relation- you know, family to begin with, and you're just ditching mom per se.
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  Y- it's, they had no idea.
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  I know in our family- it was the same thing.
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  There was no- nobody talked about what happened, so when people were like, "How could you say that?
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  She w- she was your mother," I'm like how could she do X, Y, and Z?
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  She was my mother."
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  But you're right.
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  So much of this is also that what happens at, in dysfunctional families is so secreted, and it's, something you're not supposed to be talking about.
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  And so it is, even as an adult I can certainly see those situations where you're not necessarily talking about the things that happened or how difficult your childhood was with, somebody that you've met in adulthood.
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  But it's still sad, I would say, that people are assuming, that you kinda have no good reason for cutting off your mother rather than, at least having some curiosity about, like what could possibly happen to Tammy's family that
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  she would have gone to this extreme?
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  Because again, it, assuming the best a- about you as a person, I, or your decision-making ability.
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  So if anybody is listening is in that position of the friend or family member of somebody who is estranged from their family, that could be a good thing, for people to remember as well is, to try to assume
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  that people have good reasons.
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  You may not understand them, or you may not agree with them, but that doesn't, you know- that's entirely different than assuming- Yeah.
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  She's probably just, being difficult or I don't know what they're thinking, right?
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  I was gonna say, and it takes a big decision to make that.
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  It's like you said, it's not something you just get in one argument and you're like, "That's it.
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  I'm never speaking to her again."
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  That's not how it happens with a mom or dad and a child.
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  That's, it just doesn't, no matter what age they're at.
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  It builds up and builds up.
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  Yep.
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  And it's...
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  I laugh saying that the therapist gets the brunt of it, 'cause I can see that happening a lot.
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  Like, all of the sudden it's the therapist's fault, but it's okay, this person went to therapy because they were so confused and so messed up about everything.
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  Not just mom and dad, but- when you grow up in that kind of utter chaos, it's, there's a lot to work through.
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  And then all of the sudden the, it's all of a sudden like the therapist told me to leave."
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  No, that's not how it happens.
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  Talk on that a little bit.
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  Yeah.
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  It's almost like it's a it, it No, it's not exactly a coincidence, but I don't know quite what the right word is, but it's like the timing just aligns that you're going to therapy and you're starting to have
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  these realizations and you're th- you're waking up to some of these new possibilities and learning new things about yourself.
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  Are there therapists who are telling people to go no contact?
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  I don't know.
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  I can't imagine there's that many.
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  Most therapists are really trained in trying to help people make their own decisions, thinking through the different possibilities.
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  It...
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  And if somebody is not ready to make that decision, honestly, I don't think anything they're seeing on social media or in therapy is gonna be the thing, is going to suddenly convince them to cut off their parents.
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  Again- there's so much working- It, there's so much going on that is pushing people to stay connected- that it takes an awful lot for people to go against all of that pressure, like we've been talking about, that's- Yeah
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  internal and it's external pressure to stay engaged in the family.
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  So yeah I think ultimately you're right.
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  That people have, gone to therapy and then, they're at a place at a crossroads sometimes when they're making decisions about what to do.
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  And this is a place for them to consider, that is one option.
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  What would that be like?
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  How would I handle that if I did?
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  Because the truth is even when you've gotten to the place of saying, "Hey, I need to go no contact, either for a short period of time so I can do some healing or maybe indefinitely," there's still...
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  that's not the end of the story.
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  That's just, like, where I'm at now.
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  And for me, I feel like that just opens up a space for people to be able to do some of the healing work that they have needed to do.
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  But when you are still in a really difficult or, toxic, abusive relationship, you don't have essentially the energy or maybe even the time.
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  You don't have the internal resources to do the healing because you're still getting, bombarded with the abuse.
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  And so you're dealing with what's happening day to day and there's no reprieve.
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  And so that's where when you have said, "Okay, I'm gonna take the step back.
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  I'm gonna have, minimal or no contact."
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  It's like you can maybe take a deep breath and say- okay, now I can put some of that energy into, kind of this backlog of all these years, of trauma, abuse, of difficulties, of heartaches things that have really
• 24:39
  piled up over the years that you haven't been able to work through yet.
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  And going no contact, like you said, does not mean forever.
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  I look at it like someone that's going through Al-Anon that has a spouse that's drinking.
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  You can't do it and you can't heal and go through those steps of Al-Anon while the spouse is coming home and verbally berating you every night.
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  It can't coexist, so sometimes just stepping away, like you said, to heal or to start to heal or to even to heal the bigger issues so that you can be confident enough to at least trust your own judgment.
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  What...
• 25:13
  Talk about- yeah, what that looks like some of the processes that you walk through with people as far as to starting to heal from that separation.
• 25:23
  Yeah.
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  It can be a bumpy road, for sure.
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  'Cause like I said, sometimes it feels like you're peeling back the layers.
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  And then there's more there than you maybe originally realized for you to deal with.
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  But I think the first part is learning to accept what is.
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  When you've been in these kind of relationships, you've been spending so much time and energy on trying to change things.
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  And now it's like you're gonna shift away from trying to fix the relationship to accepting people as they are.
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  This is who they are.
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  I'm not, I'm no longer engaged in trying to fix or change them.
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  And accepting the whole situation, and that, I think, often brings a lot of grief up for people.
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  It's grieving what you never had that you needed, and that can be really big for people.
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  Recognizing there's been a fantasy of, again, some stories you've been telling yourself.
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  If you could fix things, if things could be different, we might have this kind of relationship that, I've seen other people have with their parents or I've seen on TV.
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  And then certainly grieving the pain of the things that did happen.
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  Or the things that you didn't get from your parents.
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  Often there's a lot of emo- emotional neglect that has happened, and so there's a lot of things that you are grieving that your parents didn't show up for you, either physically or emotionally in those particular ways.
• 26:58
  And I think as you were talking about at the very beginning, we're also working on focusing on what you can control And that really brings you back to, what do I need to change about myself?
• 27:14
  And that might be specific related to the relationship with your parents, but as we know difficult relationships with our family, kinda has tentacles that have reached into- many other areas of our lives, right?
• 27:28
  Our romantic relationships, our relationships with our own children, our work situations, all kinds of things, right?
• 27:34
  So once we start to s- kinda have this, this wherewithal to say, "Okay, what is it that I can control?
• 27:40
  What do I need to change?"
• 27:41
  This might be I realize I really need to set some different boundaries with my own children, or it might be I recognize I'm having, the same argument with my partner over and over again.
• 27:52
  What is it that's going on here?
• 27:54
  Being able to work on some of these other relationships and other areas of our lives.
• 27:59
  And then I think the other thing that I really like to think about is like some idea of re-parenting ourselves, and that is often, again, thinking about some of those gaps in the things that we didn't get from
• 28:12
  our parents.
• 28:13
  And sometimes that's actually some tangible s- life skills, social-emotional skills that we didn't- develop because again, nobody provided that for us.
• 28:22
  They didn't give us the role modeling for it or or have the interpersonal experiences with us.
• 28:28
  So sometimes that's some coping skills that we might need to develop for ourselves as well, whether that's like emotional regulation skills or, again, boundary setting skills, communication skills.
• 28:39
  Self-compassion I think is a really big one, really super helpful for people.
• 28:44
  But again, if, nobody's been teachi- teaching you how to be nice to yourself or telling you why that's important, that might be something that now you're at a place to realize, oh, that could be really good for me
• 28:54
  to learn how to do that, and that could help me transform my relationship with myself, Right as well.
• 29:00
  And it's funny that you just mentioned the coping that...
• 29:03
  you just rambled off five of the big ones real quickly.
• 29:06
  But that's, and that's every, every adult child goes through those, those thinking and, like you said, those tentacles.
• 29:12
  And it is sometimes, unfortunately, easier to do that when you don't have all this other outside influence that is trying to throw the other, the, trying to get you into those shame spirals.
• 29:25
  I always talk about- Yeah people are like what do you help w- how do you want your clients to feel when they're done?"
• 29:30
  I'm like, "I want them to be unapologetically themselves."
• 29:35
  With no guilt and shame.
• 29:37
  None.
• 29:39
  And- Yeah that's very hard when you have- that person.
• 29:43
  Sometimes you, there, you do.
• 29:45
  Sometimes you need a little bit of a separation.
• 29:47
  And like I said, for the people that are out there that are thinking do I or do I not?"
• 29:50
  O- only you can answer that.
• 29:53
  Yes.
• 29:53
  And- All right.
• 29:54
  You made me think of two other things I wanted to mention.
• 29:56
  Go ahead.
• 29:57
  Yeah, so one is as we've been talking about this healing is the other piece of healing that I think can emerge is, like you were saying, is this ability to, I say, fully be your authentic self And that
• 30:12
  is both, I think, part of the healing but in itself also really healing.
• 30:17
  Recognizing that for a lot of adult children, they have been, kind of people pleasing, shape-shifting, trying to show up as the person that their parents want them to be.
• 30:30
  And there can be this tremendous amount of healing and freedom that comes from when you step back from that relationship, being able to be your true self.
• 30:39
  And part of that healing sort of journey might also be really exploring who am I?
• 30:46
  What do I wanna do with my life?
• 30:49
  What's important to me?
• 30:50
  What are really my values?
• 30:51
  What are different parts of my identity that maybe I've shut down because I didn't think they were acceptable?
• 30:58
  So that's a really amazing thing, to see that happen for people to really come into themselves.
• 31:04
  And it's, in some ways it's almost like sort of a delayed adolescence that if you didn't get the opportunity to do that when you were growing up 'cause it wasn't safe for you to just, be yourself you didn't
• 31:16
  get to explore and try out new things and figure all that kind of stuff out.
• 31:20
  So it's not too late to do all of that.
• 31:22
  No, not at all.
• 31:23
  And I love that because that's exactly...
• 31:24
  I love the way you put that, a delayed adolescence, 'cause that's exactly what it is.
• 31:28
  I remember going to therapy at, and 26 years old and someone saying who's Tammy?"
• 31:33
  I'm like, "Whatever you need me to be."
• 31:34
  Yeah.
• 31:35
  Exactly.
• 31:36
  They really don't- Whatever you need me to be you don't know.
• 31:38
  I have no idea.
• 31:39
  Yeah.
• 31:40
  And you go through phases, and people are like what, how old is your average client?"
• 31:44
  And the people that I work with are not in their 20s.
• 31:47
  Yeah.
• 31:47
  They're in their 40s and 50s and 60s.
• 31:50
  Because all of a sudden, you've been what everybody needed you to be for so long- Yeah and even whether you're a chi- and then you have your own children and you be what they need you to be or,
• 31:59
  you're just there wrapped around everybody else for so long.
• 32:04
  And it might...
• 32:06
  I don't know.
• 32:06
  I'm not encouraging it.
• 32:07
  I'm not saying to anybody, "Go no contact."
• 32:09
  I'm just saying if, wake up in the morning, and I tell every person I ever talk to, wake up in the morning and you ask yourself, what do I need right now to be 1% healthier?
• 32:19
  And if it's space.
• 32:21
  Yeah.
• 32:21
  And again, it's like people take a, a trial separation in a marriage or we're, taking some space in a dating relationship- why can't we do that in other relationships, right?
• 32:34
  It has a purpose.
• 32:35
  It can be very healthy for people and it can, I think, provide an opportunity for healing in some different ways that is really difficult to do while you're still in the relationship.
• 32:45
  I know we're coming up on the end of our time probably, but the one other thing that I want to say about healing that I think can be really important for people is developing some kind of true support
• 32:57
  system for themself.
• 32:59
  And I know that's really hard especially when you've come from, difficult relationships.
• 33:05
  It's hard to trust people.
• 33:06
  It's hard to know who the right people are to connect with.
• 33:09
  And again, when you're getting a lot of guilt and shame messages- Yeah you really got to be selective about who you're gonna confide in.
• 33:16
  But with that said, it is really important for us to try to develop, even if it's just a couple of supportive relationships.
• 33:24
  Sometimes, that's like through a 12-step group or some other kind of community of healing or therapy or the idea of eventually developing some sort of chosen family or close group of friends who's gonna try to fill some of
• 33:39
  the gaps that family, might have been there for people to, do, ful- fulfill certain functions in their lives.
• 33:45
  And so- those are- that's certainly a process for people.
• 33:48
  But ultimately, it's much harder to do this sort of going it alone, which I think is, for some people it feels like their inclination is, "I've been hurt by people.
• 33:57
  I just, I don't wanna be in relationships with people, so I'm just gonna figure it out on my own."
• 34:02
  But there are supportive people out there when people are ready to, test the waters.
• 34:08
  And I highly- Yeah suggest to everybody out there listening that if you don't have that person, that group, that, that therapist, that coach, whatever it is, you find it because it's who is it that says, "What's insanity?
• 34:18
  Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
• 34:21
  If you are in your little box, you're not standing outside of your box looking in, so you don't always see everything.
• 34:29
  So- Ab- absolutely.
• 34:31
  Absolutely.
• 34:31
  You just don't.
• 34:32
  And we thrive on community and connection.
• 34:34
  Yep.
• 34:35
  That's human nature.
• 34:36
  So- Yep.
• 34:37
  Yeah, and there's just, there really is a lot of healing in being able to lean on somebody, to like literally cry on somebody's shoulder and getting a hug and right?
• 34:46
  That's very therapeutic.
• 34:47
  Oh, 100%.
• 34:49
  So Sharon, this has been amazing.
• 34:51
  If people wanna work with you, get your book, talk, tell us about what, how they can, best place to reach you.
• 34:57
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 34:58
  My website is livewellwithsharonmartin.com.
• 35:01
  So from there you can find all of my offerings.
• 35:05
  I've got lots of free articles that I've written on there, all kinds of stuff.
• 35:09
  But and the book is Cutting Ties With Your Parents, and wherever you like to buy your books you should be able to find it there or just ask them to order it for you.
• 35:18
  Okay.
• 35:18
  And I will put all of that in the show notes, so if you guys are driving, don't worry about writing that down or remembering that 'cause I know I probably already forgot it.
• 35:25
  But I will have it in the show notes.
• 35:28
  Perfect.
• 35:28
  But if you want so if you had to leave people that are in this situation or going through this or know somebody that's going through this dilemma or question right now, what would be your biggest words of wisdom
• 35:40
  or piece of advice for them?
• 35:42
  Easy question, right?
• 35:43
  That's a big one.
• 35:44
  I think what I really wanna leave people with is an invitation to be gentle with yourself, be kind with yourself, recognize that this is, these are difficult decisions.
• 35:58
  They're born out of difficult situations that you have been dealing with for a long time.
• 36:04
  If you're not ready to make any decision, that's okay.
• 36:08
  Try to meet yourself where you are in this moment with some kindness, with some understanding.
• 36:14
  And I think sometimes if you can step outside of yourself and just imagine this is a loving friend saying something supportive to you, what would that be?
• 36:23
  What would they do?
• 36:24
  And then see if you can do that for yourself.
• 36:27
  Amen.
• 36:28
  I love that.
• 36:29
  I always say that, but you have to be your own best friend in a situation like that.
• 36:33
  So thank you so much for coming.
• 36:35
  I appreciate you.
• 36:36
  Thank you, Tammy.
• 36:37
  Appreciate you as well.
• 36:38
  Yes, and for everybody else out there listening, like she said, it is a big decision, but it's not...
• 36:44
  Nothing's final until it's final.
• 36:46
  Like nothing's final.
• 36:47
  So whatever you need right now, if it goes day by day, minute by minute, hour by hour, whatever it is, take it one day at a time, but know that nobody's input has any more worth than your own.
• 37:01
  So it is your decision and yours alone, and don't feel guilty for one, even one second about it.
• 37:07
  You don't have to.
• 37:08
  I always say you don't have to explain yourself.
• 37:09
  You don't have to rationalize it.
• 37:10
  Yeah.
• 37:10
  You don't have to do anything.
• 37:12
  It is what it is, and the people that respect that decision are the people that you want to d- on...
• 37:18
  in your world anyway.
• 37:20
  Yeah.
• 37:20
  So thanks again, everybody.
• 37:21
  We will see you back, and you all have a most wonderful and blessed day.
• 37:25
  Bye.