Latest / The Missing Middle Podcast / What Happens When an Outsider Runs for Party Leader? | Eric Lombardi

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What Happens When an Outsider Runs for Party Leader? | Eric Lombardi · The Missing Middle Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Hello, Missing Middle listeners.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: What you're about to hear is a live stream recorded on October 6th, 2026.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: In this episode of Answer Period, Kara chats with Eric Lombardi about his campaign for the leadership of the Ontario Liberal Party.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: Eric recently dropped out of the race, but he spills the tea on what he learned along the way.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: Enjoy!
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_04: Hi, we are live now.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_04: Welcome! Uh, we're here with Eric Lombardi, who just ran as leader for the leadership of the Ontario Liberals.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_04: So we often talk about how politics kind of caters to seniors at the expense of young people, and how part of the cure to that is to get more young voices into politics.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_04: So, which got us talking about like what happens when you get a young outsider like Eric who puts his name on the ballot for a major party leadership position.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_04: So we're very grateful you're here to talk to us.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_04: And you recently ended your bid for the leader of the Ontario Liberals.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_04: And we want to talk about your experience on the trail, that kind of the tension between online noise, the real life voters, what people can learn from your run.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_04: So welcome.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you for joining us.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's wonderful to be here.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: And thank you for having me.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_04: So you spent almost four months on the campaign trail.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_04: So, first of all, like what was that like?
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'll actually say that for real, the campaign started in February, where I started my exploratory.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: So this has been about eight to nine months of trying to drive a message and change in Ontario.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: And honestly, it is easily one of the most rewarding experiences that I've ever been through in my life, because it was an opportunity to really see the entire province and meet people in all different areas.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I know this sounds like a canned political statement, but you actually learn a tremendous amount about the differences of Ontario, as well as the responsibility that you'll have towards people if you actually are successful in being elected and having the accountability to deliver better lives for people.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a level of appreciation that you get for our problems when you also start seeing how many people will be impacted and how things are different in different locations, too.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_04: What is the difference in the different locations?
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_04: What was the thing that struck you the most?
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think when I look at Northern Ontario, was just I think the fact that there is this frontier mindset that still exists where many centers of Northern Ontario know that they need more development and they need more population and they want investment and they want infrastructure.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: And in many ways, they want the recognition in some ways for the wealth that they produce for many here in Southern Ontario, too.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I didn't appreciate, especially in the summer, just how beautiful but disconnected this part of the province is.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: One other thing that's worth saying that really shocked me was how challenging the issue of drug addiction is in Northern Ontario, even though we know it's quite bad here in southern Ontario.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think proportionally, I was really surprised by that issue.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: And it really made my own sort of thinking on this issue much more assertive in what I would like to see us do in a province to solve it.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: And that's just one of the things I learned there.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_04: When you started this campaign, how confident were you that you there was like that there was a path to winning it?
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I wouldn't say that there was high confidence.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: What I felt was potential, because I genuinely believe that Ontario has a tremendous amount of potential.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: But I it's almost like for the last 20 to 30 years, because of all the advantages that we have in Ontario, we haven't necessarily needed to be governed particularly well.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: And now those systemic failures had caught up on us.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I think there's a lot of people who clamor for a more substantive politics and like real choices and real options and real authenticity.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so my hope was that we could run a campaign on ideas and see if we could find wind with young people or the public at large, especially through the summer, to overcome some of my own disadvantages, like, you know, not being actually directly elected, you know, being relatively young and therefore inexperienced.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and we did get a lot of reception to the platform that we put out and all these things.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: But ultimately, once we got into the fall and membership cutoff had hit, we had known that we had not done quite enough to overcome the deficiencies.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why it ended up making sense to end the campaign.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: But I also do know the campaign I did run has made a real impact in driving the conversation within the Ontario Liberal Party.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I expect those things to endure as well.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_04: Um, just want to mention if anyone's watching this and has questions, please feel free to put them in the chat and uh we will ask them to Eric.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_04: Um, just want to pick up on that what you just said about how people saw you with someone with no experience as a politician.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, you had life experience in other ways, you had organizing experience with more neighbors and your, you know, your career experience, but you didn't have any political experience.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_04: And I think your core team of people were also mostly outsiders, right?
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_04: You didn't have someone who was a, you know, a liberal campaign strategist at the heart of your campaign, the way some of these other ones do.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_04: And I wondered if you found that looking back, did that give you an advantage or just make the job harder?
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think it was both an advantage and a disadvantage.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we did have um, you know, my campaign manager is Melody Kuo.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: So she was one of the co-founders of Build Canada, also has an engineering and technology background similar to myself.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: My CFO was actually Devin Munkhouse, and he has long been within Ontario liberal politics.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_01: He has seen campaigns been run before.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so we did have people with that experience, but I think it allowed us to do some things differently.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like I think we've used technology better than our competitors.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: We were willing to do things that I think conventional political wisdom would have told you that doesn't make sense to, or that you shouldn't do it.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: Well, like releasing like a full platform, doing ideas-driven videos, like willingness to say real things, you know, broader bandwidth to do more commentary on socials and what would be normal for a campaign.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I do think that we've used technology probably in the best way compared to my competitors.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: And that was largely a result of both our experiences and our willingness to try things new.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think one of the reflections I have of what I think I implicitly understood this, but I didn't practically understand this until running is when you're, you know, in finance or technology, you're always trying to solve problems using the fewest resources that you possibly can.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: And politics is actually a different optimization problem, which is like how many people can you bring in to feel like they're part of the team and contributing meaningfully to solve the same problem?
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: And that people side of it, we always knew was important.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: But I think it's something that I wish I had focused on much earlier in the campaign so that you could also have this perception of scale from like your volunteers, et cetera.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas we didn't necessarily hide like uh we didn't necessarily highlight that so early on, even though we did have a lot of people contributing to our campaign.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, in hindsight, if I ever do this again, knowing that I think will be very valuable for anyone who's running and for me going forward too.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_04: That's such an interesting concept because it, yeah, that makes a lot of sense when you say it.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_04: Like people want to volunteer and they want to feel like they're doing something and not just like, I don't know, like handing out flyers or something.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_04: They want to feel like what they they're contributing to your campaign.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm like, how do you involve so many people?
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_04: Like, what would you do to accomplish that?
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I think it's ensuring that everyone has a pathway to at least engage with you as a candidate and to offer you their perspective and opinion.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, I had a lot of people say, like, you probably get advice from so many different places.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, take mine with a grain of salt.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, look, like if you're interested in what I'm doing and you're dedicating time to help us, I want your opinion, right?
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, in politics, everyone's trying to be a strategist.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you gotta let people think about these things.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I I think one of the things that we tried doing, and we could probably do better, but it was certainly something that worked for us, is just if people came to us with ideas, it's like, okay, would you like to do that idea for us?
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like, we'll find time and let's go go with it, right?
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I think I've learned some about how to use people that make them feel like their contributions were not just meaningless labor.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: But I wish I had known how to do more of that earlier on.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_04: You had a lot of policies in your platform.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_04: Like you talked about having, I think you were the only candidate who had a fully costed platform, right?
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_04: And like as a policy focused focused journalist, I was like, I love this, someone who engages with all of the these big ideas and comes up with actual tangible solutions and how they're going to pay for it.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_04: But it's actually something I've heard a lot of people criticize you for, saying that there's like the key to winning an election is to have one or two key messages.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_04: So when you can look at things like, well, like you look at Trump, the Make America Great Again being the slogan kind of thing, and even Rob Ford looking back there, stop the gravy train.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_04: Very simple and effective because it's a thing people can hand can point to and be like, I understand this.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_04: And I wonder, like, is there just can you be a good policy candidate and a successful political candidate?
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_04: Do those can those two things go together?
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I I actually think the policy work that we did was our campaigns defining advantage and message and the reason why people were willing to engage with me and take me seriously in the first place.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: I would actually say, you know, let's say like I'm 15 years from now, and you know, maybe I have had some elected experience and I have more executive experience and the credibility that comes with frankly being older, and we can get into talking about ageism and all these things as well.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: But that would have been, I think, an extremely credible campaign as a result of the policy death.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I think there's a lot of bad advice in politics, especially from what people have seen for the last 20 years.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: I remember earlier on, like someone I was speaking with was like, well, Eric, everyone knows that you're a policy guy.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: So you've got to do things that aren't related to policy.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, well, first of all, nobody knows who the hell I am.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: That's the first problem.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so they're not gonna know that I'm a policy guy.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: If I want them to know that I have ideas, I should just share those ideas and demonstrate the rigor behind it.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: I think the other thing is having a good top-line message is important.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: And what we always said is like, we're gonna build a competitive economy, a capable government, and offer new opportunities the next generation.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: Ultimately, that's the high-level message.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: But I actually think that in this era of politics, where you have so many opportunities to engage with your audiences over longer periods of time, you can do things that aren't just repetition and not just surface level.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: You can focus on specific things and earn support in you know, tens, twenties, thirties based on talking about specific things that specific people care about.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that's actually a way that politicians should be considering how to build more trust going forward.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: I also do think that there's differences between um a general election campaign where you're really speaking to mass audiences versus leadership campaigns, where you're often talking to people who are highly politically engaged, and frankly, in some ways, willingness to get involved with partisan politics.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: And that group of people is different than general voters.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess one more point on this, and sorry, I have a prolonged tiff tickle.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_03: It's all good this time.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of people who engage in politics or even partisanship, they come with a why.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: There are certain things that they care about.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I think politicians underestimate how willing people are to engage intellectually if they are willing to engage intellectually.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: And we found like throughout the campaign, I think we did something like 70 to 80 writings, probably total, is what worked for me were our events where we did like Q ⁇ A's and people came and they had questions, and many of them had actually taken a look at the platform we put together and came with real specific ideas, and they liked that they were it was on the table because now they understood me and where I'm coming from and what I had to offer and the rigor behind it.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so I actually think politicians for two decades have kind of been sold the wrong message, and ultimately what my advice would be to the liberals, but also anyone else interested in getting involved in politics is it's not about being too smart or intellectual or having too many ideas.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: What voters ultimately want is authenticity, they want to be able to trust you, and they want to be able to believe that you're credible enough to lead a large organization.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: And to me, you can do a lot of different approaches so long as that approach is actually authentic to you as a politician and as a leader.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: And when that approach doesn't seem authentic, people can tell.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so I wouldn't shy away from being policy specific as long as that's genuinely authentic to who the leader is.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_04: I want to ask a question that we got from uh someone uh Denis Sullivan on Blue Sky.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_04: And he wanted to know like you endorse Lee Fair Close Fair Cloth, is how you pronounce her last her last name, right?
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_04: Um and was there something that um you're a housing guy, like that's how we all know you at first is a husband about housing.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_04: When you endorsed Lee, is there something that convinced you that she would take the issue seriously?
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I mean, it wasn't just one issue.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: So the reason why I endorsed Lee, and I'll I will also say that I spoke quite at length with uh Stephanie Bowman's team about uh endorsement as well.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: But with Lee, why I ultimately decided to throw my um endorsement behind her is for a couple of reasons.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: Firstly, I've developed an amazing relationship with her through this process.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: And that has led me to trust not just where she stands on issues, but how she approaches thinking about problems and the way that she asks questions on subjects that she doesn't have deep understanding of.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like that curiosity, and then the way that she leans out towards judgment and then having and forming an opinion is actually something that I think is very valuable in how leaders conduct themselves.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: And ultimately, when you're electing someone to be premier, you're not just doing it based on the specific policies that they're going to bring forward, but how do you trust they're going to respond day to day as new issues come up?
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: And ultimately, I built a lot of trust in how Lee conducts herself behind it.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: The other thing I'll say with Lee is you know, she comes from this healthcare background.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: I think in many ways, my subject expertise on housing, on infrastructure, on the economy, I think complements her in a good way.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: And her team had made it very clear that they wanted me to help inform and add my ideas in these areas.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that really mattered to me as well.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_04: But sorry, I so then I just wondering, like when it comes to the housing part of it, do you feel like she has she has an understanding or that you trust that she will get there?
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_04: Like if she doesn't, if she doesn't have exactly the view, maybe that you you think a kind of democratic uh uh person would come to it with that kind of where they would eventually get to.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_04: Do you think she'll get to get to those ideas?
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_04: Or is she get is she there now?
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, you know, I'd say like she's not going to be as full-throated as like a yimbi as I am.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, that's going to be rare in in politics.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: But there's several things that we are very much aligned on, and she very much agrees with.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think we've talked a lot about um municipal finances in this province.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, you look at how we do taxes on development and that you know, some of these programs that um are one-time and one-off, and they don't really create longer-term market conditions for bringing down costs.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: So she knows that we need to do municipal finance reform so we can move the burden of growth-based infrastructure investment off of new housing, right?
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: That's something that she understands.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: She also very much likes when I talk about the need to do building code reform, not just because it'll create more affordable housing, but also because it's a pathway to making the housing we build more beautiful.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that argument resonates not just with her, but I think with a lot of voters who are skeptical because a lot of the development we've been producing lately is frankly kind of uncanny.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's a real interest there.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I think even if you talk to a lot of municipalities, like this fracturing of the permitting processes and regulatory systems, this is becoming a much better known problem befitting of provincial leadership.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so I know Lee is aligned to doing more to facilitate this as well.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so when I look at the core sort of like core principles of areas where we need to be doing more, I think you know, she will be open to being much more ambitious than we've seen under Ford.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: And this actually kind of aligns with where the Liberal Party was going with the platform in the last um election, regardless.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I think that you can expect Lee to be quite strong on this issue.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe just one thing to point out is you know, she has um one son that is now in university studying engineering, and then she has another son who I think is 16.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: And she's motivated quite a bit by seeing how hard being able just to achieve like a normal middle class life is now for her kids specifically.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I think there's a greater understanding in Ontario now about the challenges facing young people.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I often talk about the milestone recession.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I think Lee, this is a very clear and personal priority because she she worries about her own kids.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_04: I think that reflects a lot of people in this province.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_04: I'm starting to hear a lot more about that, about people in their 50s who are saying, you know, I care a lot about the housing crisis.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_04: My kids need to move out, they need to be able to afford to live on their own.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah, I think that there is that kind of movement.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_04: That's interesting that you're seeing it.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, she's like, but I'll also say, like, I think among my competitors, I mean, like, I think Stephanie as well, like very much understands some of the math here, too.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so I do think that in general, the future of the liberal party is a little bit more pro-growth and pro-the need to actually make the trade-offs because you know, development isn't inherently evil.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I do think that you'll see, regardless of outcome, that the sensibilities on these issues have really evolved versus what you'd have seen like in the government 10 years ago.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_04: I want to ask about something that you said in your star piece, which was talking about social media and how it rewards conflict more than conversation.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_04: And so you felt like sometimes even your own party would get mad at you for saying the wrong thing.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and I wonder like you're someone who spent a lot of time on social media compared to the average candidate.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_04: I think you were engaged with more conversations than the average candidate does.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_04: Do you think that helped or hurt you?
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think it probably helped more than it hurt.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and this is because for me, I think there is an audience for my politics that sees me as an authentic agent that wants change and is willing to be combative in order to fight for things, right?
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, there's this idea in politics that people are looking to agree, sorry, with the political leaders on everything.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: But they're not.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: Once again, they're looking to trust people.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: And trust can also be built through disagreement and how you engage in conflict.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: Now, I will certainly say that I'm not immune to foot-and-mouthing it on occasion or to pick fights that might not always reflect well on my maturity or be worthwhile.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_04: I wondered if the benefits that you were getting were worth those times.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: But I think the benefits were worth those times because at least it allows people to understand that you stand for things.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I especially think earlier on, like there's a lot of people who came out with uh a couple of knives for me, and I didn't have it.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that also muted some of the people who would have been more snarky about their criticism towards me, because I was willing to say, actually, no, I'm going to take this seriously and don't assume that you know better, right?
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I do think that that helped, even when it sometimes might have hindered.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I really do think that politicians, and I'll actually give conservatives some credit for this, um, they're more open to being open and being able to actually just like say opinions and comment on things in real time.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: In a way, a lot of liberals have become far too canned about.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I think when you're trying to build connection with the public, it actually helps to be responsive.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I do think that that enables people to be conversational with you without having to do, like, you know, a calm shopped thing about an opinion that you have.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I really do think my competitors would do themselves more justice and engagement by actually just making the things that they do less canned and being willing to respond to the conversations of the day more often.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I actually do think that that's something that worked better for me.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, one more thing to say is despite being a bit of an outsider candidate and younger and, you know, fundraising less, I probably earned the most media through this campaign.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's in part due to the fact that I was saying things that people could actually feel like they could engage with versus sort of like the cliche politician posts that you get that aren't really all that interesting for people.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_04: Well, you got some attention in the last days of your campaign when you used like all that colorful imagery is the only way I can put it to describe.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: I made a couple of cheeky comments, I suppose.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_04: Put some imagery in our heads that I don't think any of us really wanted.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_04: I was wondering what made you use such provocative language.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_04: Was that something intentional or was that something that you just came out completely?
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: Shocked.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: Uh how um I did not I thought it was a mild euphemism.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't think it was like uh like a pearl-clutching, shocking euphemism.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I I think I found myself surprised by uh just the reaction to that.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I do think that there's a tendency for some people, especially liberals, like like some of you are just too precious.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: And it shows.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: And it actually, I think this sort of class of person who likes to language police and pearl clutch and whatever, you both ask politicians to be more authentic and candid, but also you punish people for saying something, you know, a little, a little cheeky.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I think a lot of these people don't realize that in some ways, you know, like the language policers to me are like the nimbies of speech.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like I can't tell you how much I dislike these people.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because it's very holier than thou.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: It means that you're actually refusing to engage with the audience argument.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: And when you look at the debate, nobody talked about anything else, right?
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: And you think you're an intellectual.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: Well, do you know what?
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: Why don't you talk about some of the substance of the debate as well?
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so for me, I was willing to kind of double down on this because do you know what?
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: Get over yourself, right?
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: You don't need to be so damn precious.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, you got Doug Ford going off about the ample real estate on his ass when he's talking about telling Donald Trump to kiss his ass, but I'm the one who's getting skewered.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like, come on.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_04: Fair, fair, fair.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, we got an audience question um that is uh Jacob Belou.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_04: Is that Jacob DeWing's uh uh one?
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_04: I'm not sure.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_04: I think it might be his username, anyways.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_04: Uh says, Hey Eric, thanks for running.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_04: What place do you think you'll have in politics moving forward?
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's it's a great question.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it will probably depend a little bit on who the next leader of the Ontario Liberal Party is, but I have made it clear to everyone that I am at their service.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, should they win?
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I've had some folks within the party ask me if I want to take a greater role in shaping some of the work leading up to the party's policy conference, which is going to occur next May.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I'm certainly open to exploring a nomination for MPP in the future and potentially running in the next election.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: But once again, you know, whoever the next leader is, you know, they're going to have opinions on what they want their team to look like.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so that might play a factor in whether I head down that path.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I've been out of this for a week.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm still also thinking about what's next for me.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I did this because I really believe in some of the ideas I've put forward and I want to see them have staying power in politics as well.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so there are ways to do that, both from the outside or even within roles within public service as well.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm certainly open to exploring those things too.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: I might also look at getting some additional professional, like board experience for local community groups, et cetera, that just add to potentially some of the perception that I didn't have enough appropriate experience to be leading a party at my age.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'll start thinking about some of those things.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: And then the last thing to say is, you know, I think the way I approach politics and the mindset I have, a lot of people have said that, you know, it's not, you know, universally the Ontario Liberal Party or the Conservative Party or the NDP.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of like a unique mindset.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, how do I keep the sort of community that has this mindset?
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: Let's call it Lombardy liberalism, um, coherent and moving forward and I think in some ways structured.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I have a personal interest in growing and engaging with those who bought into me as well.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so I don't have all the solutions there, but it's certainly something I'm thinking about.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so if you have thoughts and ideas, anyone listening, like please reach out and let me know.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_04: You're calling it Lombardi liberalism, but a lot of people painted you as a conservative quite early on and were like, maybe he's a conservative plant.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_04: Uh didn't like that you were getting uh endorsements from a lot of conservative thinkers or can't or MPs, even, right?
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_04: Um and I was wondering what you what you made of that.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think a lot of people have a very superficial view about how politics works and also how ideologies work.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'd certainly describe myself as being someone who's closer to a classical liberal.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think one of the reasons why I don't fit well within the conservative political universe is because I really do believe that one of the fundamental failures in Canadian politics, and especially in provincial politics, is the decline of state capacity specifically and the importance of healthy public institutions and the systems within them for delivering rising prosperity.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I believe in things like competitive markets.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I distinguish that from things like free markets because I believe that there's a role for government to intervene when you get monopoly behavior or rent-seeking behavior and things that can actually involve in free markets.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: I am skeptical of um regulatory complexity, but that doesn't mean that I'm skeptical of the need to reflect values and have accountability and processes within regulatory bodies, right?
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, I think uh it's easy to superficially say that if you're in favor of regulatory simplification that you're a conservative.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: But I I also happen to believe that regulatory complexity uh burdens public delivery in the public sector perhaps even more than the private sector.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so there are certainly elements of how I think about things that would fit very well in a social democrats universe.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think people like these simplistic views because they're easy.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: But for me, I just see the world in terms of problem and solution.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm open to using the tools of markets and competition and the coordination power of government to solve them, depending on what it is.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I think ultimately the reason why conservatives were so attracted to my message is because I rooted my thinking in more classical liberal principles and then applied it forward.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so, in many ways, I think if the liberal party itself is going to be successful going forward, they should actually remind themselves of the values within the namesake of the party as a North Star for how they think about solving problems that they're facing.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think those connections hurt you?
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_04: Sorry, do you think that those connections, uh the way that people looked at you that way, do you think that hurt you at all?
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_04: Because when you're running for the liberals and then you're getting some people that maybe some of them, some factions of the party weren't big fans of.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, but you know, you can't make everyone happy in politics.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_01: But there are a lot of liberals who are very happy with me because you know, they they consider themselves like, let's call it pragmatic pro-reform business liberals.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_01: Many of them are very happy with, you know, the tone shift that we see federally with Mark Carney.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and in one of the debates, you know, I talked about our need to make a competitive healthcare system and that we can't just measure ourselves by how American or not a solution is.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I had a competitor point out, you know, they don't like the differences in financing for private delivery covered by OHIP versus public.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I reminded everyone that 80% of all of our healthcare is delivered by private, not for profits for the most part.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so when we talk about competitiveness, I'm not talking about Americanizing healthcare.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm talking about whether the incentives create better outcomes towards creating capacity and patient care.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of people, you know, got angry about some of what I said.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: But I would actually say I had even a stronger response among liberals who were like, thank you for just pointing out how reality is in under the world.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I think, you know, to say that everything was appealing to conservatives is just not true.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: And that's not how ordinary people think about where they sit as well.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_04: That's fair.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_04: I guess most people are not fitting nicely into one party, and they tend to have different viewpoints that go to different Canadians are famously nonpartisan.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I remember seeing a study like 10 years ago that compared partisanship in Canadian Canada and the United States.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_01: And about 10% of Canadians view themselves as like committed partisans.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and about 80% of Americans have like a partisan identity.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that we need to remember that.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I think liberals too often are so concerned about like defining who can be in the liberal party tent that they forget that a lot of people don't see the world that way.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: And that actually by indulging that, we end up undermining the people we can bring into our audience as well.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_04: There's a bit of this like weird tension where people would see you as like not experienced enough.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_04: But then we also we'll hear people say, we need younger people getting more engaged.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_04: Like, why don't they vote?
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_04: And it feels like there's a bit of a conundrum there because they're like, be engaged, show up, volunteer, vote.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_04: But don't run because you're not you're not experienced enough to run, especially not at the higher levels.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, and I wondered like what you would say to someone else who wanted to run based on your experience with this.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I genuinely do think that we have, and I really did see this as well when I was on tour, which is the age-based divisions within our society, within politics, are very much still real.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I think if you're a young person who's concerned about it, just don't care.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: That's really the advice that I have because I really genuinely think that the reason why there's so much, I think, condescension towards young people who are actually trying to enter politics to drive change, et cetera, um, is because there's not enough doing it.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's not enough familiarity that actually young, competent people deserve to have a voice and not just have, you know, their elders consider their interests, which they haven't done well for 30 years.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'd often get, you know, um, you know, sometimes elderly liberal vote voters will be like, well, why just going for the top right away?
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like, why not start small?
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, I'm sorry, but it's because we've had systemic decline for 30 years, my generation's interests have not been prioritized, despite the rhetoric.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_01: And frankly, we need people to put real solutions on the table because they have a much longer period of time to live in this province as well.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes people would be kind of taken aback by um, you know, the you know, be jarred by that kind of pushback.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_01: But others would be like, okay, like I actually like whoa, like okay, I get it now, right?
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like you want to see your generation be able to be successful, and you are right that things are not working for young people.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_01: And you've just kind of told me point blank the whole point of a campaign like this is to put issues on the table and drive a case for change.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so as I started getting longer into this campaign, those kind of questions diminished.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_01: Very early on, people are like, well, why do this now?
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like, why not get more experience?
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_01: Why not start as an MPP?
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_01: And by the end of it, as Liberal Party members became more familiar with me, I got that question less because people understood my why.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so if you're a young person who's interested in getting engaged with politics, you're going to experience it, right?
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's just the nature of how our demographics now look like here.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_01: And the fact that young people haven't had a strong role in politics for a long time.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'd even argue that's a reason to do it.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_01: Because I do think that there are a lot of older voters in this province who need to get over the fact that young people deserve a voice in politics too.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_04: It seems like from the outside, just someone watching the race, that the party brass wanted to have like it seems like the insider candidate is Navdi Baines.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_04: He comes in with a lot of uh of support already.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_04: Did you feel that uh in there?
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_04: Like why do they do that, first of all?
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_04: And is that something you is am I is my read right that that is the party insiders who like they did not want Nate running?
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_04: They tried to make it very clear they didn't want Nate Erskine Smith running.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_04: And it seems like the it's all kind of coalescing behind him.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_04: And I wondered why.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if I want to get too in trouble here.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um look, like I think I think one of the impressions that people have is that a liberal is a liberal is a liberal.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_01: That you know, the provincial party and the federal party are like just two complete peas in a pod.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_01: And the reality on the ground is actually quite different.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, a lot of people they're in choosing which like what to engage with in par politics, they often go towards what they're more interested in.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so you actually see that you know, provincial liberals first and federal liberals first, don't have as much overlap in volunteering and activity and stuff in the party as I think people looking on the outside would believe.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so I kind of object to the idea that Nav is like the establishment candidate, at least for the provincial party.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I think even if you look at the federal party, um, he might be more of the establishment pick if you really only look at the sort of Trudeau era establishment, which you would argue is not currently the federal establishment as well.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so I don't know if I see that being as true.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I do think that the party needs to learn some lessons from how some of the things were run in this that are disadvantaging to candidates who might have less of a brand.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like for instance, our membership cut off on September the 7th, which is the Monday lab after Labor Day.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that seems so early because there were still so many debates happening afterwards.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_04: And then I saw conversations online where people were like, cool, I really like this person.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_04: How do I sign up?
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_04: Too late.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know why they do that.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_04: It's weird.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, well, I think it's actually constitutional that they have to have the cutoff like 60 days before voting starts.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_01: But the reality is they changed the voting system to be an electronic ballot with a second factor authentication.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_01: And the point of doing that was to filter up front.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_01: You know, in the past, what would happen is, you know, you'd get these big lists of, you know, spreadsheets with people's names and addresses and emails and all this stuff.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_01: And it wasn't actually necessarily true that these people signed themselves up, right?
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so you had this 60-day period.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_01: So the voter rolls could actually be validated.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_01: And you needed time to do that work.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_01: Then in the new system, all that was being done more or less upfront.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so then they never changed the rule about 60 days.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_01: And these are just things that I think were not deliberate, but they were just misses.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I also think that the technology side, we had a lot of issues with membership forms and signups.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of the campaigns did too.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that there are going to be some learnings for the party, especially if you ever do a future learning leadership campaign over the summer.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_01: Especially, you know, we had municipal elections that were getting attention.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_01: You had trade wars, global conflict, like all of this stuff.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_01: Very hard to also engage people with a partisan leadership race as well.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so I really do think the party needs to take the lessons learned.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_04: I hope they listen and they hear it.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I hope there if anyone's from the party is listening to this and can make that change, like that would go a long way because I think people like a lot.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_04: We I want to see a lot more young people involved in politics.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_04: And I think a lot of them are not looking six months in advance at when is there going to be a leadership race and then knowing to sign up by a certain time.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_04: They probably I'm sure some of them think the the election nights in November got tons of time and then it's cut off 60 days beforehand.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_04: So that seems like an easy win for them.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_01: Just in general, overestimate like how much.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like, ooh, the establishment is angling and all this stuff.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, more just boils down to like Occam's razor.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, the dumbest explanation is usually the right one with some of this stuff.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like, don't be conspiracy theorists, people.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like, a lot of it is just normal human like failure, resource constraints, all this kind of stuff.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_04: That's the way it is, and they haven't gotten around to fixing it rather than trying to disenfranchise people.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_04: Well, hopefully this will make them realize it.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_04: Um I had there was an audience question that came up about whether you feel felt like the shine that's on the federal liberal party right now that Carney is kind of enjoying so much popularity in this country.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_04: Is that rubbing off on the Ontario Liberal Party at all?
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I I don't think so.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um I mean, maybe, maybe in like little bits and pieces, but I also don't think the Liberal Ontario Liberal Party has done a great job at trying to anchor itself to the new mindset of the federal party.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, like I still see some of the messaging coming from our party, and it does still feel like you know, we haven't fully entered this new universe where people want growth, they want development, they want industrial expansion, they want opportunity, prosperity, a strong economy.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we're starting to get there, but we're not quite there yet.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I actually do think one of the challenges that we face as an opposition party is the same challenge that all opposition parties are kind of facing across the country.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_01: Where with the trade war that we have, it's very easy for the incumbent government to kind of wrap themselves in the flag and you know defend the province or the country.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I really do think that we have a very strong bias in media to incumbent governments.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll kind of explain this.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, it's not I think deliberate as much as it is um like downstream of a set of incentives, right?
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like if a government is announcing something, that's important because it's actually going to happen.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_01: So the news needs to report on it, right?
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_01: You, as a journalist, want to remain well connected and friendly enough with people who are in government so that you can get advanced notice of things that might come up.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_01: And it's important to break stories to drive clicks.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_01: And then when you portray the opposition, if the opposition is putting an idea forward, like it almost always gets ignored.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like always.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_01: Well, who cares if they have an idea?
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's not going to happen.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_01: They're not in government.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_01: So the things that get reported is ah, the reaction of the Liberal Party to something that Doug Ford is doing, right?
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_01: And when you have this time where you kind of have this rally to the flag, it's very easy for the incumbent government to be like, ah, well, you know, they're not just against us, they're against the interests of Ontario and the country, right?
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so I really do think our media environment, and frankly, the shallow behavior of many Queen's Park reporters, it needs to be on the table for discussion.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_01: And our party needs to be aware that this environment exists, and you're gonna actually have to draw attention to yourself and things and almost hit people over the head with it if you want to get attention as a proposition on things that you are proposing.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_01: And um, the environment today doesn't lend itself very well to that.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's very hard for the Ontario Liberal Party to be able to catch some of this wind from Kearney when the same sort of, I think, incumbent media bias that exists federally also exists in Ontario, but for Doug Ford and the PCs too.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_04: After this is a question from someone named Millennial Moron.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_04: Um, after going through this campaign, do you think it's viable for a candidate without significant party establishment support to actually win the leadership with a well-run campaign?
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, no, I wouldn't I wouldn't say it's impossible.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think like I think if I had been 10 or 15 years older and had, you know, I mean, I'm a director at a sort of serious management consulting firm and I've had a great career.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_01: But I had I been, you know, on greater private sector boards, had I had clearer executive leadership, had I had a couple of more gray hairs aside, um, I actually think a lot of my campaign outcomes would be different because what I consistently ran into was, oh, well, like we love your ideas, we love your passion, we love the way that you think about problems.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, you'll make a great MPP or cabinet minister one day.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like you need just, you know, once you have more experience.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so I actually don't think the challenge was being an outsider.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_01: I just think that there's a lot of people who could not get over my age and the lack of perceived experience.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so I do think it's possible for an outsider with the right characteristics and background to come from outside of politics to really take over a party, but the credibility that they bring has to be something that surmounts those who've been in politics for a long time.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I just wasn't in that case.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_04: That's so hard.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_04: Like, yeah, you that means you're getting people who you're not gonna get young people running as much, at least not this, maybe a younger at lower levels, fine.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_04: I know that like in you can see in Quebec they just elected, I think, their youngest MVP ever at 23.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_04: So it like it can happen.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, you have like Sam Oysterhof, uh, who's an MPP in Niagara, and he got first elected at 19.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, at that level, there's certainly more potential for young people to get involved as well.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, for me, right?
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like I also just want to say like these are also barriers that can be overcome in theory.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like, if, you know, and I hate how ad nauseum this has become, but you have, you know, Zoran in New York, and he kind of came out as an outsider, as a young guy, for more or less.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_01: And his campaign was a pretty young campaign until suddenly, you know, he galvanized public interest.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_01: And ultimately, for my campaign to be successful to overcome these perceived lacking in experience, I would have needed, you know, that strike of lightning to happen with the public, right?
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_01: And young people and online and like really starting to show that, oh, there is a tremendous amount of interest and this new up and comer.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_01: And if that had happened, the concerns about my experience would evaporate because the perception of electability would have just gone way up.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so I don't think anyone should be discouraged by the outcome of my campaign, but you do, as a young person, as an outsider, have to prove more to overcome those barriers.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_01: And you should just be prepared to try and experiment.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_04: Fair, I just wanted to ask another question from the audience.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know how to pronounce this username, the on-card.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_04: Um, in a few words, what do you think is the key to beating Ford?
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think number one, you cannot the Ontario Liberal Party needs to not create an environment where they are like the HR of politics.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_01: I do think, like back to this language policing, one of the things that Ford does well is like he makes people feel comfortable.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_01: And no offense to some kind of liberals, but you don't make ordinary people feel comfortable in being able to express their opinions in the way that they feel things without judgment.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_01: So the next leader has to lead by also showing more openness to being able to say more candid things.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that will matter.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_01: I think number two, our last leaders didn't necessarily engage with their policy, excuse me, at a level that ensure that they actually knew what they were selling.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the public needs to know a leader's why.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_01: And if they're part of the process, they'll be able to have good answers to questions that come up, not because they memorized it, which is off-putting, but because they understand what they're they're doing.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's important.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think it's really important to be very credible on the economy and be a different offering in tone from the NDP.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's a lot of conservatives who are quite frustrated with the graft, you know, whether you're not you want to call it corruption, there seems to be a lot of things that are not working, a lot of money being wasted.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_01: I think that this is a great angle for the party.
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_01: I even think that there's a lot of disinfected conservatives who see some of the excesses within some of our public institutions ideologically.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, well, this happened under conservatives.
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so if liberals are willing to be more culturally moderate, I think there's a huge opportunity for people to be like, these are just practical people trying to solve systemic problems and run the economy well so it can pay for things that we care about, like education and healthcare.
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I really do think that that's a good message.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I also for Lee in particular, you know, she's very much grown as a candidate.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I think she's very good at balancing both substance and sort of rhetoric in a way that I wasn't necessarily able to achieve.
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_01: And she's extraordinarily like lovely.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_01: And she kind of has this like matriarch personality where, you know, she's very kind, but she's also gonna tell you to, you know, pick your clothes up off the floor and uh, you know, shave and put yourself together, right?
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that kind of um persona is like, we're gonna get things back into shape here, right?
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like we're gonna, you know, get ourselves out of the house and clean up our room and set the bed, uh, is something that would be appealing to people in Ontario in this moment where we know we have to get more focused on things.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that there's a great deal of potential to take on Ford.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm actually not even convinced that he's going to be the leader for the PCs heading to the next election either.
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_04: That's a good point.
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_04: I guess that he we don't know in his you know, his popularity has kind of done the ups and downs and has some had some real lows.
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_04: Although I guess given our system, you don't really need a majority to get a win of a majority, but still.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I just wanted to just end on it.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_04: Just uh I want to know what was the most challenging moment of the campaign and the highlight to you.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_04: Can you give us both of those?
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_01: Most challenging moment.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_04: Was there any time that you were like, why did I do sign up for this?
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I actually think the most challenging moments for me were the ones before I decided to officially enter.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, like, and this would have been like in May, where I really had like this crisis of confidence.
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like, do you know what like Eric, what are you doing?
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like, no one is going to take this seriously.
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_01: And you've kind of blown up your life, and now you, you know, you're gonna end up with an egg on your face.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I definitely woke up some moments, especially at that time, just like, what have I done?
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I'm glad that the way that campaign turned out wasn't that way.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think on some of the moments I really liked, um, visiting Kirkland Lake, which is about six hours up north, and really seeing the community and the identity it has and the way it celebrates it.
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_01: It just there are some really special places in this province that really know what they're about.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, growing up in the GTA, which is this big agglomerated area, like you don't feel that as much.
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_01: And that was really nice.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I'd say I love some of the tours that we did of industry.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_01: So there's there's two that really stood out for me.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_01: One was actually getting a tour of Bruce Power, and I have like a nanotech engineering background, like nuclear physics.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_01: I I was like a child on a field trip.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_01: I had so many questions, they were so generous, amazing place.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_01: I I want like 10 of them uh in this province.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_01: So sorry, and then excuse me.
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_01: Geez.
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_01: One more is we did this tour of a uh greenhouse in Leamington that is growing uh peppers, and they're doing all these really interesting science experiments to see like what wavelengths of light will actually grow peppers better in the winter.
• 57:43
  SPEAKER_01: They had a fully closed hydrological system within the greenhouse.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_01: And they were even um, because they had to produce carbon dioxide for the plants.
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_01: They put a natural gas generator in so that they could put the CO2 into the greenhouse, then the electricity goes back out to the grid.
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_01: And they were just doing so many innovative things.
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_01: There's so much cool stuff going on in this province.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like it really does make you optimistic when you're feeling cynical.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_04: That's awesome.
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_04: I love to hear that.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_04: And um, I guess we'll wrap now before you lose your voice.
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_04: Uh so thank you so much for joining us.
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_04: And honestly, like amazing job running.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_04: Kudos to you for throwing your name in, for bringing so many big ideas to the campaign.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_04: I hope that the other people who are still in the campaign are gonna steal your best ideas.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_04: That's always, I guess, the best case scenario for free.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_01: Take whatever you want.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and Kara, thank you so much for having me on and for your friendship and everything else that you're trying to advocate for our generation too.
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you.
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_01: Through the middle project project.
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_04: I appreciate that.
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and thanks for our audience, everyone who's who's watching and listening, and people who are listening to this later, watching it later on YouTube.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_04: We appreciate you.
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_04: And the producer of this episode is Meredith Martin.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_04: Our editor is Sean Foreman.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, and yeah, please leave some comments and we'll pop back in here at some point and try to answer some of them.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_04: And maybe Eric will do that too.
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know.
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and if you guys want, just send me questions on X.
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_01: I'm always happy to get to them.
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_04: All right.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_04: We'll see you next time.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_01: See ya.
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_01: Bye bye.