Latest / Brands, Beats & Bytes / Album 7 Track 12 - The Power of Research and Resilience w/Bill McDowell

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Album 7 Track 12 - The Power of Research and Resilience w/Bill McDowell · Brands, Beats & Bytes

• Bill McDowell [00:00:00] DC: Brand Nerds. Brand Nerds. Brand Nerds. Today is a very special day. Now the producers, Larry, they hate when we do this, but I'm gonna date this podcast, I'm gonna date it. LT: You know what, you've been doing this pretty much every week. DC: I know, I know. You know what? I think I'm in fear of being ejected, but at some point I'll stop. I, I promise, I promise. Larry, I'll stop. So today, Brand Nerds is May 14th, 2025. This is the day that the NFL, the National Football League for our international listeners. 'cause we got over a hundred countries now where they release the schedule for the NFL teams for the season. So this is a very exciting day in, uh, in sports. I mentioned that because, uh, I'm very happy that my Detroit Lions are going to be playing the Washington Commanders in week nine, and the Washington Commanders knocked my Detroit Lions out of the playoffs last year, which I did not like. But more [00:01:00] importantly, I wanna reference Bill Parcell. So Brand Nerds for you all that don't know, Bill Parcells is a two time Super Bowl winning coach. He is one of the icons of the game, and he has these quips and quotes that he's known for. One of them is: "Trust in God. Everyone else needs data." Okay? This is, this is a great quote by Bill Parcells and LT and Brand Nerds. Today we have someone who's all about the data. Take that for data. So, David Dale, LT: We love that Bill. DC: So Brand Nerds in the marketing game, oftentimes we are accused of, and sometimes we earnest, is that we're too into the creative stuff. Listen, Brand Nerds, if you don't have your data right, you not, you don't have your brand, right? And the way to get your data right is through research. And we have someone in the building today that [00:02:00] has built a career rooted in research. That's number one. Number two is this Brand Nerds. This is what I love about today's guest. You may start in one place, but that's gonna lead you to somewhere else. And so I love the story of today's guest. He starts in one place. Take that for data and then he ends up expanding. You gotta have a base Brand Nerds. And Le and Larry, can you tell the Brand Nerds who we have in the building today, who is an exemplary person to edify us on this journey? LT: Ooh, that was great. Great preface, DC We have Bill McDowell in the house today. Welcome, Bill. Bill McDowell: Thank you for having me, guys. LT: Yeah, we're, we're, we're really happy to have you. And I would've put an over and under of about three and a half for DC saying take that for data to quote the inimitable David Fistdale, which we always thought was really funny. Brand Nerd, that's a former NBA coach who after [00:03:00] A-A-A-A-A. Loss in the playoffs a few years ago was so upset about, um, some of the things that happened into the game. He ended his press conference by slamming the table and said, take that for data. So that's where that comes from. I want to, that's where, give that preface, but now let's get, let's get into background as DC alluded to, which is really, really awesome. So, Brand Nerd, a Bill is a co-founder and CEO of something called Accelerant Research. When you click onto the Accelerant website, the first thing you see is quote, "agility and action insights that empower your brand." And then when you click on the about section, the first thing you see is quote "insights that are more than just data." We talk about this all the time, Brand Nerds on many of podcasts. Data and metrics are just numbers. It's the insights that matter. Accelerant gets this and that is why insights are front and center for them and why we want Bill on the podcast. So with that [00:04:00] backdrop, let's walk you through Bill's tremendous background and how he becomes CEO of Accelerant. Like me, Bill is also a product of the University of North Carolina system. He earns his undergrad and MBA degrees from UNC Charlotte. The first six years of Bill's career are spent on the supplier side and market research firm, Marketing Analyst, Inc. As a project director and eventually senior project director. He manages research in a wide range of industries, including retail financial services, CPG, telecom, pharmaceuticals, just to name a few, and with deep expertise in financial services, retail and innovation research. So, okay, MAI provides Bill a great foundation of experience and you notice that I said deep expertise in retail. He now jumps to the client side where he joins Lowe's Home Improvement as a senior research analyst managing the company's competitive brand tracking and multicultural tracking studies. Both those pieces of research are [00:05:00] truly foundational for a big successful retail like Lowe's. Bill then gets tapped on the shoulder to advance his career down the street in Charlotte at Bank of America, where he becomes VP New Product Innovation Research. In this role, bill manages quantitative and qualitative research initiatives for all lines of business that spans the bank's new product development research, pipeline. All of this experience is really, truly great groundwork for Bill's next move. Okay, D, It is now 2008. Amid the Great Recession, bill and Paul Rubenstein co-found accelerant research with a vision to redefine market research through an unwavering commitment to quality and personalized service. Given those times of severe economic pressures and limitations outsourcing, they make a pivotal decision to bring all operations in-house. This enables them to oversee every aspect of their, of their research with exceptional care. By managing the entire process internally, they not only [00:06:00] cut costs, but it also enhances their ability to deliver a comprehensive range of services from industry specific insights to custom research and advanced online data analysis with a distinct personal touch. Now, almost 20 years later, Accelerant Research is a full service market research and consulting firm specializing in qualitative research, recruiting, facilitation, online panels. And e community's customer loyalty, product development, customer satisfaction, measurement, modeling, tracking, and brand analytics. The success of Accelerant Research is rooted in their dedicated team, whose passion for excellence ensures each client receives attentive and tailored service. This commitment has earned their firm a reputation as a trusted partner for businesses of all sizes, from Fortune 500 companies to smaller enterprises. What started as a, as a response to economic challenges has become a hallmark of their success, demonstrating how a boutique firm's genuine dedication to quality and client care can turn [00:07:00] adversity into opportunities for growth. Really looking forward to this one. Welcome to Brands, Beats, and Bytes, Bill McDowell. DC: Bill, you have quite the track record, sir. Bill. Yeah. Uh, so, uh, Bill, Larry does a fabulous job of the going through, let's call 'em the stats, if you will, of our podcast guest. And, um, he does such a great job, but he will be the first to tell you he's only reading the facts. That's right. It's, it's what, it's what you did. So, uh, Brand Nerds, uh, get, get, get ready for this one. 'cause you, you heard a lot of things in, uh, in Bill's background that we'll start to tease out through the podcast. So our first section, Bill, we call it Get Comfy, and this is where we have a little light chat before we get into the, uh, the heart of the podcast. So I'd like to start this Bill by bringing up, um, a, a [00:08:00] concept of two things that seem the same, but that, and maybe even sound the same, but that are starkly different in our business. So let me give you an example. Uh, one of our, um, friends of the podcast. Love this guy. One of the best marketers, uh, we believe in the world. His name is BJ Bueno, and he has a company called Cult Branding, CULT branding. And he does the, he does this drop every, uh, every week where he gives marketers insights. So one of them was branding versus marketing, and he was pointing out the difference Bill between the two, because often we, we will interchange these words. I do branding, I do marketing. And what bj uh, asserts is that, yeah, they, they sound the same. They kind of are the same, but there's some differences. And here's how he broke them down. Uh, Bill, he said, branding is why you exist. Marketing is how you communicate the [00:09:00] reason. So I'm like, Ooh, that's good. BJ, in your area, bill, we have these words, insight and information. They kind sound the same. They're related, but Bill. I got a feeling you understand some distinctions between the two, so please share the difference in your mind and or similarities of insights and information. Bill McDowell: Yeah, sure. Um, information is the, the torrent of data coming at us. The just stats, you know, figures, uh, information, right? Mm-hmm. Insights are the, what you can glean from this steady stream of information, right? It's, it's the stuff to do based on all this. And I mean, you know, nowadays we're, there's more and more of it at our fingertips, but does that make us any more insightful? Right. [00:10:00] DC: Okay. That's okay. Now, uh, Larry, you're gonna have to help me out since I attended Detroit Public Schools. Oh, here we go. Bill is using big words. He said information, uh, information is the torrent of data. I just want, what does torrent mean? Larry, does that mean a lot of stuff? Like much vast coming at you? I just wanna make sure I'm understanding our brother Bill here. Okay. Alright. LT: You understand completely. DC: Alright, so Bill, I love the, I love this the, the distinction stuff coming at you. Versus gleaning something from it. Alright. So what have you seen as challenges? Like when you're dealing with your clients, as you have said, the torrent is not just static, it's coming faster and wider. How do you help your clients sift through the expanding torrent of information to truly glean the most powerful, salient, actionable [00:11:00] insights? Bill McDowell: It's the biggest challenge of someone in the research field. Um, it's, and I don't wanna say it's easy because it's very, it's very difficult. It takes a lot of time and mm-hmm. Learning to become, you know, a stat geek or a, a research professional. Mm-hmm. But, you know, that is step one. That is the foundation, is just being able to execute and to provide this information. Now, the white cast that exists between the ability to execute and the ability to package it in a form that the decision maker you are supporting can receive. It is huge. I mean, it's that, it's, it's the consultative, uh, kind of next step of what all, you know, all researchers kind of strive for the, you know, whatever the nirvana enlightenment of being able to actually take the stuff that we gather and tell people what to do with it. Mm-hmm. In non geeky research terms, right? LT: Mm-hmm. Right. So, Dee, [00:12:00] we're onto something really big here. So Bill, you know, I, I, I was really taken, um, and you and I have had a number of conversations before and I've always seen this front and center with you, and then I was really taken with what you guys say on your website, really, you know, talking about insights. So when you guys started the company, you have a multiple, lots of employees now. Is, it's, it's the old nature versus nurture when you're hiring folks. Are, are, are you looking for people who have certain qualities that, you know, can, you know, take a, take the torrent of data and make it into insights? Or is that something that you guys just want somebody who has great brain power, who you are actually gonna take and mold and show them the light of how to go from the torrent of data to real insights? How does that work? Bill McDowell: Yeah, so the, the Accelerant Research lifecycle, and I always like to describe us as like a teaching hospital, right? There are very few people that, you know, [00:13:00] set out to become researchers when they grow up, um mm-hmm. In academia, like it is a, an industry that most people in it fall into it from other disciplines and, and don't intend to become researchers. So, you know, when we are hiring, you know, the brand new wet clay researchers, you know, fresh outta school. Often they don't have a whole lot of, uh, research related schooling. Right. If they've had, you know, stats class or two, if they've had, you know, research methods, maybe they come from social sciences or anthropology and have some understanding of like, you know, uh, ethnographies or, or, you know, anything related to qual quant research. Um, that foundation is, is basically what I'm looking for. Somebody that has a little bit of background, may know in general what we do, but otherwise has, you know, demonstrated they can finish school and do quite well, um, but also has some hustle and some willingness to mm-hmm. [00:14:00] Just absorb and learn and, and you know, become like research ninjas, as it were. LT: Interesting. So, so in essence you're looking for the wet clay that you can mold and then you guys have. The ability and accelerant to accelerate, uh, pun intended them from being just information geeks to actually, uh, folks who can provide real insights. Bill McDowell: That is the goal. LT: Gotcha. DC: So I'll share this before we go to the next section. Um, uh, I agree with everything Bill just said, and Larry, great question. I'm gonna posit another attribute that I think Bill is going to agree with and I will use, um, one of my best mentors in business as the example. Uh, so I was, uh, brand nervous before we got on. I was reading, uh, a, a email that I got from a gentleman by the name of Bill Levisay. Bill Levisay [00:15:00] was a senior executive at Coca-Cola for years. He's a dear friend. If you're listening, Bill, what's up? Uh, and so, uh, also at the Coca-Cola Company, my mentor was a gentleman named Steve Horn. Steve Horn. This dude was a strategic and data savant, Bill, savant. Okay. And one of the things that he taught me is always ask the next question, like the, not, not the first one, not even the second one, but the one after that. And what he taught me and others is that if you ask the why is that multiple times you'll eventually arrive at something that most others won't. Most others will get bored with the second or third question. But if you go 12 questions deep, it's almost like, uh, swimming in the ocean. Some people could go six feet deep, sub nine feet deep, but when you start getting down into the [00:16:00] teens and twenties, folks don't wanna go that deep. And what he taught me is in terms of people really being a, I think you said a stat geek. Is, this is the attribute curiosity. You gotta be curious, Brand Nerds you gotta have this, like, this deep desire to understand why is that? And Bill has got that. And that, that's what I think, that's what the, this brother's company is really about, is like the, the curiosity that he has and that the people that he has on his team and this, this, uh, like this unending desire to get, get to the answer. So am I, am I getting close, Bill? Bill McDowell: It is spot on. It's all the why. And to tie back to the, you know, insight versus information. Yeah. The why is the insight, right? Like, you know, so if you just stay surface level and. You know, have your whatever dashboards and don't ask your follow up questions or don't like, [00:17:00] dig into the information you're gathering. You know, what use is it and what use are you, honestly? Yeah. DC: Okay. With, with that, I think we can move to the next section with that. Ponder that question. What, what use are you, Brand Nerds? But we'll go on now. Alright, here we go. Uh, we're now into five questions. Bill, I ask one, Larry does, we go back and forth until we arrive at five. Okay. Mr. No one grows up to want to be in research. We fall into it. Mr. Mr. Bill, uh, what was your first experience with a brand that, uh, touched your soul, that had you excited, that made you smile, that that brightened your heart and brightened your day? Almost like a first love. What was this for you? Bill McDowell: Hands down has got to be the Air Jordan brand. Jordan. Yeah. So I'm a, I'm a child of the eighties. Um, came up, you know, thinking I was gonna be NBA [00:18:00] bound and, you know, this, this Michael Jordan Guy was, uh, on the scene and releasing the shoes that just, I mean, they went crazy. So I grew up in Charlotte, North Carolina, obviously, you know, mjs from, from, you know, the Wilmington area. He went to Chapel Hill, um, is actually his brother Larry, um, opened up a sneaker shop in Charlotte, like Right. You know, up the road from, from where I grew up. Wow. And it was called Flight 23. And it was just, I don't know, it was like a toy store for, for me and my friends, like, you just get our parents to drive us there, you know, whenever possible. And just go and like in awe, look at, you know, all, all the sneakers we couldn't afford, but one day wanted, wanted to get our hands on. Right. Um, you know, it's, and the brand, like what has happened to the brand, which, you know, at the time was just, again, a dude and, and some sneakers. Um, it's just, it's amazing. And still to this day, I mean, I, I am still a sneakerhead [00:19:00] and still, you know, an afic aficionado and I have to have mine. And this is, you know, all these years later. It's crazy. LT: Oh, I love that. Steve. W what are you thinking? What's your follow up for, for, uh, for Bill on this? DC: I wanna hear from you, Mr. Tobacco Road, UNC Tar Hill. I wanna hear from you. LT: Well, it, uh, you know, it just goes to the power of MJ and the authenticity that he had and then, you know, to how he lit up the scene. And it's very hard to Bill, as DC knows. I, I, you know, our, our son Jake, is about to turn 22 and, um. And he gets Jordan as much as he can. He's probably one of the few from his generation who thinks that MJ iss, uh, better than LeBron, you know, that debate. Right. Thank you. Thank you. DC: That, that, that's not a debate, but go ahead. Bill McDowell: Exactly. My, my son is, you know. Yeah. I don't wanna get started on him. Absolutely right. There's no [00:20:00] question about it, LT: but, but what you're saying is you were sort of in many ways, like right at the, at the heart of, of what he and the brand was about. And funny enough, I read recently that Flight 23, and it's so cool and funny that you, you know, grew up right down the street from there. That, that was actually a, um, uh, a, a bit of, um, uh, of, of a issue between Nike and Jordan because, um, Michael's dad and his brother ran that, and they just sort of did what they wanted. And they weren't exactly adhering to a lot of the, the ground rules. Um, so the, and this has come out many years later. Right. Um, but uh, so it's interesting though that, uh, you alluded to that. Bill McDowell: Yeah. Honestly, my first and most like salient retail experiences was, was, was that shop for sure. LT: So did you go, so were you there like, like all the time? Just, you know, like [00:21:00] almost a weekly or even more? Bill McDowell: Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, and managed to get at least a handful of, uh, you know, Christmas time or birthday sneakers from there. But yeah, we just go all the time and just walk, wander around and, and not buy anything. LT: Yeah. But you know what's interesting about that, Dee, that's mm-hmm. That, you know, what a, a lot of, uh, retailers are the, like, what, uh, Bill just said sort of the bane of their existence. All people are just, you know, lukey LS and they're not buying. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's that connection is woven with those kind of visits, you know, so, um, that's, that's about brand, not about product and, and buying something. DC: Hey yo uh, Larry, when I heard Bill say he would go and it was like a toy store. Yeah. He said, he said it was like a toy store when he said that. And then he said like, even though we couldn't afford to be buying these things all, you know, all the time, it was like a [00:22:00] toy store. It reminded me of a word that I think any brand would love to have. Many strive for it, but they never get it. And that word is covet. LT: Yes. DC: Covet. So, so I bet, I bet you dollars to donuts right now. That while a young Bill McDowell. And did you say your brother, did you say you used to go with your brother? I. Uh, no, just friends and, oh, just friends. Okay. Sorry. You friends? Okay. A young Bill McDowell at that time, while he coveted it at the time, and maybe got it on an occasional birthday, a pair of occasional Christmas. I bet today if we saw this dude's closet or garage, I bet it filled with Jordans. Filled with them, LT: Bill, yes? Bill McDowell: All right. So, you know, I'm not to the point where you could get reality TV or, or you know, the, the intervention or hoarder squad in to, you know, to, to do a show on me, but I'm [00:23:00] not, I'm not, not on that, that trajectory. There are, there are, you know, my wife and I definitely have, uh, conversations about the, uh, the sneaker inventory as it were, DC: Inventory. Okay. What, uh, another, another quick question, then we'll go to the, uh, to uh, l lts question. All right. What are your favorite variants? Oh, good question. Your favorites. LT: That's the, that's the big question for sneakers. DC: That's the question we want to tell the Brand Nerds, we wanna know Bill. LT: Yes. Bill McDowell: Okay. Um, I love threes three. Three is just from a design standpoint. That's just, that's, that's, LT: And you know what three was like? Um, a paradigm shift? DC: Yes. LT: You know? DC: Threes okay. You had me at Hello? With threes. Okay. Keep going. Keep, keep going. Bill McDowell: Um, but I'll tell you my favorite pair that I own, and this is, you know, my, my team here at Accelerant, they know, they know me well. 'cause last, last holidays they got me a pair of, uh, [00:24:00] the Wu-Tang dunks. DC: Oh, ooh. Bill McDowell: The, yeah, the, the, the black and black and yellow killer bee dunks there. DC: Ooh. Bill McDowell: Wonderful. Yeah. Just wore 'em yesterday actually. DC: That's awesome. Nice. Nice Bill. Okay, Larry, next question, brother. LT: Before we go to the next question. DC: Oh, oh no, I'm sorry. Go ahead. Sorry. LT: No, I just wanna say one thing, bill. We had a gentleman by the name of Jason Maiden on very early, and probably in our second year of the show who was a, was a Jordan designer. Uh, remember that D, and I think he did right before, I think he did the 22 version because nobody wanted to do that because of 23. Um, but anyway, so we, we, we love talking Air Jordans on this show. It's really cool. Um, next question, Bill, who has had or is having the most influence on your career? Bill McDowell: Uh, yeah. Most influence on my career has to be, uh, and you mentioned him in the intro, Larry, but, uh, that's Paul, Dr. Paul Rubenstein. He's, uh, my business partner and founder at Accelerant Research. Um, he's the guy that sort of brought me into this [00:25:00] thing. Um, and you know, I have since sort of taken the reins of the company from him, but couldn't have, couldn't have done it without him. He was actually a. Let's see. He started out as a client turned, coworker, turned, uh, agency supplier of mine, you know. Oh, wow. Stay in touch all the while, uh, you know, would go on the road, have conversations about how, you know, we could, we could do this thing better than, you know, the folks we buy from or, or that, that we, you know, contract out to. So let's, let's start our own, uh, research agency. And we did. LT: Wow. And that was in 2008 with all the, the economic turmoil of the time. Bill McDowell: Yeah. That was July, 2008 and it was literally the very next month when everything just went completely kaput. LT: Wow. Yeah. So, um, so what you're saying was Paul was a mentor of yours. Right. Um, and, and how did you guys first meet and when, you know, [00:26:00] when, how did that relationship change from mentor to, okay, we're gonna be collegial and, and partner. Bill McDowell: Yeah. Um, yeah, we actually, so the first time we met and he'll tell this story was, uh, so I like to eat. Um, we were at, bank of America was a, a client of ours at the agency I, I used to work at, right? Paul was a member of the research team at Bank of America. Uh, he came to our holiday party. Uh, his version of meeting me was my face in a plate of ziti just shoveling away. And someone introduced, you know, our biggest client, someone introduced him to me and I may have picked my head up and then that, that was it. That was our, our introduction. Um, but no, I, I worked on a lot of, a lot of research studies for Paul as a, a client of mine. And then he, um, not too long after that actually came over to the agency I was working at and we got to work side by side primarily servicing, [00:27:00] uh, financial services, uh, banks, Bank of America was, was a big line of ours for sure. LT: Gotcha. DC: Cool, cool. Bill McDowell: But yeah, um, and just over the years, um, you know, learning from him and then eventually, you know, becoming, you know, peers, colleagues, um, and then partners. LT: Cool. Alright, D, anything to add before we go to the next question? DC: None for me. I'm ready for the next question, brother. LT: Let's do it. DC: You're a entrepreneur. You have, uh, worked on the client side, you've worked on the agency side. You have had a number of successes. Um, you would not be here now if you didn't learn something on how to survive in a business during the, um, the, the great recession. Uh, so that means you, you know a lot about winning and of course you, you went to grad school at UNC. [00:28:00] So you, you, you've seen your, and you've been a fan of UNC basketball, I would imagine, for most, if not all of your life. So you understand something about winning. This question has nothing to do with any of the winning. Okay? This question Bill has to do with the losing. And specifically we want you all want you to share with us an example of your biggest F up one that was because of you, your brain. And by the way, Brand Nerds. If you, uh, for those of you all who are listening to this, if you're not watching, uh, this on YouTube or something like that, bill is my brother from another mother because he and I are both bald. But I wanna know from this brain right here, that bald head, the brain underneath you made the F up. And more importantly, Bill, what you learned from said F up. Bill McDowell: Yeah. Number one without question is. Starting a research agency in 2008. DC: Okay. Okay. Got it. Okay. Bill McDowell: Um, and, and, and thinking that, yeah, this is gonna be easy. Um, you know, no [00:29:00] problem. We'll just, we'll do this. We're, we're good at what we do. Let, let's roll. Um, and it was, it was anything but to start off, you know, and a lot of that had to do with the environment. Um, you know, we couldn't, I couldn't have possibly imagined that, seriously, next month after, after we open our doors is when the economy just completely went into the toilet. Um, but we, let's see, I'm trying, alright. We opened our doors July, 2008. We booked our first research project. July, uh, I don't know, close to October, November of 2008 and did very little until the end of 2009. Um, wow. For the most part, our first year in business was spent like just, you know, staring at one another and waiting for the phone to ring. And it was, wow. It was rough. It was nerve wracking. It was, you know, certainly not what we expected. [00:30:00] Um mm-hmm. But it's kinda what, you know, and, and you know, it was sort of brought up during the, the intro, but like, you know, we change, we had to change our business fundamentally based on, you know, just trying to keep the lights on at the time, you know, something we can now look back on and think, oh yeah, this, you know, it worked out well, but, you know, it wasn't foresight on our part, it was literally just, you know, food on the table. LT: Right. So what did you learn from it, Bill? I'm sorry. What did you learn from that? Bill McDowell: Uh, just resilience. Um, expect the unexpected for sure. Um, nothing ever happens, uh, the way you intend for it to. Um, you know, I, I always like to use the phrase control the controllable, but there's so much, you know, there's so many other factors, so much that that can and will happen, and you just have to, you have to roll with those punches. You have to adapt, you have to be willing to, um, to innovate, to [00:31:00] think outside of whatever box you're in, um, because you, you, you just can't get comfortable. LT: Is there one story that you remember from that time that sort of echoes what you're talking about that you, you sort of figured out and you name names or not? Um, anything that come that you, that sort of, sort of encapsulates that? Bill McDowell: Um, well, I mean, I think, you know. So Bank of America, that's where I left. You know, I was, I was gainfully employed at, at Bank of America. I left a, an actual job to do this, you know, startup research thing. LT: And by the way, the way you're saying that is like, you're MI feel you're going back in a time like, what was I thinking? But go ahead. Bill McDowell: Absolutely. What was I thinking? Like, I, I mean, I've got a, you know, a three month old, um, son at home. I'm, you know, I'm doing good. I have a job, I have benefits. Why in God's name would I actually do this? Right. Um, like I said, it seems like a no brainer at the time. We are going to, you know, serve, I mean, Charlotte, North Carolina. [00:32:00] That's, that's where we are. And, you know, outside of NYC, you know, we're talking like biggest financial services hub in the, in the country. You know, this is, you know, the backyard that you would want to open a, a research agency that is geared primarily toward financial services. Um. I can't, I don't have to tell you what was happening to banks at the time. Um, LT: Right. Bill McDowell: Yeah. And especially big banks, you know, became as a result of, of, you know, what was going on very well, risk averse. Right. And, you know, a startup, boutique research agency is a risk. Um, so adding someone like us to the, the supplier roles, like, forget that, you know, they want, they want big, they want safe. And so even, you know, when we could get those conversations with, you know, potential clients at, you know, these org large organizations, we were facing just all kinds of, of, of barriers from a supply chain management standpoint. So, yeah, I mean, it did, it changed not only, you know, the fact that we began to [00:33:00] in-house all of our, our operations and, and vertically integrate, but also, you know, which industries we were targeting, which, you know, who we might be be serving from a client client roster standpoint. LT: Interesting. Okay, Bill you any follow up before we go to the next question? DC: I, I do, Larry. Thank you. Okay, bill. Um, you open the doors, the CE recession hits. Um, you and Paul are looking at one another and crickets are doing their thing in the background. Nobody's calling. Um, you have a three month old and you were gainfully employed with benefits. Why did you stick it out? Why didn't you just go back? Bill McDowell: Uh, that's a great question and honestly, you know, at the time, probably a, a, a crappy job market, you know, prevented that from happening. Mm-hmm. But [00:34:00] also like this, I don't know, this just burning knowledge that what we have and what, you know, we're building. There is a market for this. Like we should be, we are better at this than, than, you know, those that we compete with, right? Mm-hmm. Um, so I think that that just knowledge of like this can succeed is, is was also a big sort of motivator to just, to not completely give up DC: Brand Nerds, I'm gonna share a word with you that, uh, may have been going on with Bill, he may not describe it like this, but I will. I had a similar experience. Um, brand positioning doctors started in 2008. Yeah. And like you, um, I was thinking how is this going to work now at, at, at, with the recession? Um, I tried to [00:35:00] interview, I said, you know, may, maybe I should right now I. Not do this. And I wasn't feeling it in the interviews at all. Bill, like before I put a shingle out, I would be into interviews. I didn't have many of them, but the interviews that I did have, bill and Larry, I was super into them. I would do days and days and hours upon hours of prep, I would come in with the right demeanor. At least I thought so. Uh, but I just wasn't in it. And looking back, what I recognized was that, um, I'm coming to the one word here, uh, Bill and, and Larry, is that I needed to have faith that my business was going to work. And o once I decided I have faith in this no matter what, this is [00:36:00] when I was okay, phone not ringing. Emails not coming. Um, folks getting close to a piece of business. Bill, you know what this is like Larry, you know it 'cause we live it out there thinking you've got it, sharing it with family members. Hey it's looking good. And then it vanishes. It's just gone. Yeah. These are what I call soul destroying moments in the life of an entrepreneur. Got to have faith, brand nerd. You got to have faith. 'cause without it, most folks anyway are gonna think you're nuts. Like I, I don't know, I don't know what your uh, what your, uh, significant other's family was like. But if I were the father of your significant other, I'd be like, what's up with this dude? He was just working with Bank of America. Okay. Alright. So, uh, kudos to you. Okay. I'll go to the next question. I'll go to the next question. LT: Well, next question's mine, but DC: Oh, sorry. My bad, my bad. Yes, LT: I, I, I wanna share something too 'cause I think, yeah, it's really important for the Brand Nerds, to understand [00:37:00] that time and resilience. 'cause Bill pointed out. So I, too, DC knows this. Uh, bill I was at, I had a, a, a different, um, at the time, marketing consultant, consulting firm in a different space. And we had about a million dollars worth of proposals out and nothing came in. I mean, nothing. And usually we would get about 33 cents. If you had a million dollars, you'd get about a third of that, right? That was usually what we came through. And so I had to leave that again de faith, but I, I had a wife at the time said, you know what? Yeah, this ain't working. You need to go get a job. So I started interviewing. I interviewed to be the CMO of a company called IMVU at the time. This was a really big deal, you guys, it was the virtual reality world, the heart of Silicon Valley in Palo Alto, and I had gotten through the CEO wanted to hire me. I'd [00:38:00] met a, a number of the venture people, but there was one main venture person that, that person will go unnamed and is a very prominent person to this day in Silicon Valley. And I was going to this interview, you guys and DC knows me. I don't, things don't phase me Bill. Like, I, I, I'm not one to, to get, I was so not myself. I was, couldn't have been more nervous. I had huge anxiety because I understood I get this job, I, I do this well. I get this job. It's all good. I also know how bad the economy was and that it wasn't gonna be Yeah. To get anything like it. Well, you guys know what happened. Yeah. And I knew five minutes in. It was a lunch interview and I knew five minutes in this was just going like, DC: ah, h Larry. LT: And, and it was, and Brand Nerds were share were the three of us are sharing you this, that time was incredibly difficult. The external realities were such that it had to [00:39:00] affect everything you did business wise. Yeah. And we're sharing that vulnerability with you all on purpose because you too are gonna hit times that you can't control. We couldn't control that. Now you could say, Hey LT, you should have controlled yourself. You should have been better at that. Uh, and I should have been, but I wasn't. And it was, um, it's one of those, you know, it was, that was what was meant to be, but that was really hard. It was really hard. Anyway, let me go to the next question. DC: That's great, Larry. Thanks for sharing that. LT: Yeah, you're welcome. I'm, and thanks for Bill for setting us off on that. So Bill, uh, when, and this is big and, and, uh, this is a question we ask all our folks a little bit differently. So regarding technology, and I'm gonna say technology and market research, right? Can you tell us where you think marketers, or in your case market researchers should, should lean in or best leverage tech or areas that you think they should be leery and simply avoid? Bill McDowell: Yeah. Um, [00:40:00] you know, I think, I think it is a interesting and cool time to be in, in my business, right? And it has been, you know, for the past several years, but with the AI revolution these days, um, there is a lot of tech to to be had and a lot of new platforms, new processes, new ways of at least executing what we do and analyzing what we do available to us. But there is also a lot of. Noise and difficulty, right. Determining what's, what's worth our time. Um, and it's funny, like people ask me about, you know, the future of our business and, you know, the influence of, of AI and, and you know, the existing tech, tech landscape. And I, I, I have no idea. What I'm certain of is like, there are two bookends of research that, that, you know, there is sort of the, at the very, you know, basic end is [00:41:00] the raw material research, and that's the people to take part in research. So like you do surveys, you do focus groups, and somebody has to take part in that research. You know, there are companies that create panels that are basically just a bunch of like pre recruited people who wanna take part in research studies. There's always gonna need to be that source of people to, to share their information all the way on. The other bookend is, you know, and I what we talked about earlier with regard to, you know, information versus insight is. The research consultants, the folks who are experts at getting research done and telling decision makers what to do based on this information. Um, there's a whole bunch in the middle with regard to execution of research, which is now and in the next few years completely up for grabs. Like, I don't know what is going to exist tomorrow. Um, but what I do know is that there's always gonna be the need for somebody that can, you know, decipher take this [00:42:00] information and, and, you know, relay it forward and tell, you know, execs what, what to do with it. LT: Take it into insights. Absolutely. Going back to Bill McDowell: Absolutely right. LT: So Bill, do you and or someone on your team, do you guys, because you're, like you said, you're inundated with all this different technology, machine learning and everything that there is, right? Is somebody out there, um. You know, leaning in and trying to figure out what those are, or are you, are you doing it more as catch as catch can? How do, do you have a process, I guess is what I'm asking? Bill McDowell: Yeah. As much as a process as we can, like, you know, we always stay grounded in traditional research methods, right? Like, so the, you know, the tried and true sort of mm-hmm. You know, psychology based assessments and, and, and sampling and, and, and research. Um, but, you know, you, we cannot ignore [00:43:00] tech and we cannot ignore, you know, tools that are kinda at our disposal to, to get this stuff done quicker, to get information in the hands of those who need it, you know, faster, better, cheaper, right? Mm-hmm. Um, so we, it's this constant fight of like. You're try to stay true, maintain, you know, research rigor and maintain like the quality of, of what we're producing, but also always be on the lookout for better mousetraps and better ways to get, get stuff done. LT: Right, right. Interesting. And do you have, and d I'm sorry, I'm gonna ask this last question before you go. Mm-hmm. Do you have, I got it. Do you have clients who were saying, Hey, bill, we love you guys, but you know, we're reading about all this stuff with AI and research and, you know, um, are, are, what are you guys doing? Is there, do you have, uh, anything in that realm that you, that, that you can help us with? Are you getting clients actually asking that? Bill McDowell: Starting to, and a lot of, so clients run the [00:44:00] continuum, right? I mean, we've got some very conservative clients who are actually like. Well actually ask that question as a negative. Like, are you ah, using this stuff 'cause we don't trust it and ah mm-hmm. We're certainly not gonna have our data feeding into these Ah, yeah. LT: They don't want their stuff in open AI is what you're saying. Right, exactly. Right. Right into that. Got it. Okay. Yep. Bill McDowell: But then you've got other more progressive clients, I guess we could call them, who are like jumping in, embracing, you know, reading the latest headline and asking what, you know, how we're using this shiny new thing. Right. And sometimes it's engaging in debate. Sometimes it's, you know, attempting to educate if something that they are, you know, jazzed about, maybe doesn't hold up as it were. Right. Um, and it's, you know, again, I, I think it always just gets down to the, the consultative side of what we do. Like, you know, our job is to, you know, to help get our clients better and more information and to help them stay outta harm's way with a [00:45:00] lot of this stuff. LT: Interesting. D, what are you thinking? DC: Um, I'm thinking that Bill and, uh, and folks that do the work that you do, bill, uh, your work is getting harder, not easier. So because of the technology LT: Yeah. DC: There's more and more information available. You described it as a torrent earlier, I lo earlier. I love that word. And so, um, uh, the, uh, the bane of the existence of, uh, most people who are building brands and businesses, uh, are distractions. And, uh, and the, the, the technology, while it creates the ability to make better decisions faster, it can also be incredibly distracting. And so when, when we as, uh, as marketers talk about. The most precious, uh, [00:46:00] valuable asset now is one's attention. We typically think of that in terms of the consumer, but it's the same for executives and decision makers. It's the same thing. So when Bill said earlier, like, it's not just the execution of what you do, it's the packaging of it to tell the story so that they can, he didn't say this literally, but I think Bill meant this. So you can capture the attention of the people that you're talking to. So they can go, Hey, this is what's most important. This is what you should be doing. And so finally I'll say this and then, uh, uh, turn it back over to you guys, is that when, when executives Brand Nerds rise in organizations, more responsibility, more resource, more resources, more risk, you are forced to make bigger decisions in less time. Yep. Sometimes without all the facts. This is if you want to [00:47:00] make the decision before your, your competition. And so now, now it comes down to, with all this technology it that, that you talked about Larry, and that you talked about Bill, is that who's good enough to look at all of these seemingly disparate data pools. It's sources that go, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, boom. Here like this, this is, this, this ain't getting easier, I don't think. Okay. That, that's my response. LT: It it's not, it, it really isn't. Um, and before we throw it to the next question, you know, uh, you see Bill, he's using, like he says, he's just from the Detroit public schools, they. They should be very proud of what they've produced in disparate and all these different, you know, big words that he's cogitating, that he doesn't, you know, that he, that he, he, he laughed off. So anyway, with that next question. DC: Alright, [00:48:00] Larry, uh, Touche. Touche, brother. Bill McDowell, what are you most proud of? Bill McDowell: Yeah, I gotta say, you know, I, the theme we're going off of here, but, uh, still being in business today, right? Like, not having thrown in the towel in the early days and actually sticking it out and, you know, building something that I'm very, very proud of. Um, I do sort of consider. And now, all right, so we've been in business for 17 years. Um, you know, we're, we're a teenage company at this point. We are beginning to mature, uh, and I feel like we're just now like, starting to hit our stride. But I, I think, you know. Based on what happened to us in the early days and based on the, you know, pivoting and, and sort of innovating and reassessing that we had to do, like we're, I'm just now feeling like we're, we're starting to see the, the fruits of that labor and I'm, I'm proud that, you know, we didn't hang it up. LT: Nice. [00:49:00] Uh, thanks brother. Yeah. I, I just have a quick follow up de for, uh, for Bill. Um, it's interesting that you say you're growing up. What, what, are there things that you can tell us or stories you can tell us that sort of synopsize that you're, you feel like you're seeing the fruits of that labor? Like, you know, is, is, is it the people around you, what the clients are saying? Any stories you can convey on that realm? Bill McDowell: Yeah, I mean there was, let's, there was a lot of, or the early years of, of, of the company, you know, it was when I. Basically research was going through a little bit of a, you know, an initial tech renaissance, I guess you could call it. Like there was a lot of, you know, do it yourself platforms. Right. A lot of, you know, ways of going, you know, executing research where someone on the corporate side, a decision maker might not necessarily have to talk to somebody like me. They could, you know, get stuff done themselves. Now, whether or not that was, you know, [00:50:00] a good idea is, is, is certainly debatable, but Right. You know, there was a period of time in those early days where I, it was starting to feel like, you know, yeah, we're really good at what we do, but is this industry just not getting it? And, you know, we're kind of being, you know, dinosaur out of this thing. I think, you know, a pendulum has swung, uh, a little bit in recent years to where I think there's been a return to the realization among, you know, corporations that I. No, we really do need smart researchers, right? So, you know, the, the, the versatility that we kind of dug our heels in and, and, you know, decided, all right, traditional research methods, sound research, like, we're always going to be grounded in that, right? Um, and that has turned out to be the right move. So, you know, being able to be tech forward to the extent possible, but also do it right is, you know, is certainly paying dividends and, and seeing more and more that there's, there's an appetite [00:51:00] for that. LT: Very cool. DC: Yeah. I, I, I, I've never really trusted the fly by night do it yourself. Uh, research game. I know it had, its, it had its heyday. LT: Yes. DC: Uh, but, uh, but brand nerds, uh, for those of you all who do not work formally in tech, so you, you don't work for, um, Amazon. I consi, even though they're retail, I consider them a tech company. You don't work for meta. You, you, you, you don't work for Google or HP or one of these traditional tech companies, uh, you ask yourself this question, if you are in a company and they're like, ah, you know, we think we need to like pull back on the research budgets. We think we could do more of this stuff ourselves. Just consider this just for a moment. Now, if these companies have hordes of data scientists, that's actually a title, data scientists inside and outside of their company, and you gotta buy. Quite a bit of your [00:52:00] media from them, do you think you don't need to have your own data scientists to deal with their data scientists? Sounds to me like if, if you don't have at least the ability to intellectually compete with these people, they will gladly take all of your money and convince you that your rojas rojas is good when it ain't. Okay. Alright. That's all I gotta say about that. Bill McDowell: Well, but the lines have blurred in, in our business. Like Yeah. Traditionally it used to be, you know, folks in corporate would commission entire research studies and folks like me would go out, do it, deliver our shine, your report, and you know, all as well. Mm-hmm. The ability now to, you know, to see more under the hood about, you know, like in some cases, you know, companies are able to do their own surveys, you know, like I said, whether they like to or not. But they still need help with certain bits and pieces of the research [00:53:00] pipeline. You know, that's where we actually found a, a lot of, you know, our business these days comes into this like, sort of nebulous in between of, you know, not doing full blown research studies, but maybe helping with a portion that, you know, given organization doesn't do well or doesn't have the bandwidth for. DC: Mm-hmm. LT: And then you layer on the insights too. That's where you, right. Like, yep, indeed. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. That's big. All right. D we ready for the next, uh, segment here. DC: Let's do it. LT: All right. D Bill, what's popping? DC: What's popping? LT: So, Bill, this is our chance to shout out, shout down, or simply air something happening in around marketing, marketing research today that we think is good fodder for discussion. And we understand that you have something, hit us with it. Bill McDowell: Okay. Um, so last month, uh. Department of Justice handed down an indictment of a, a research company. Um, and this has [00:54:00] been probably something that, you know, most in the, in the brand and marketing world haven't heard of, but this has been, LT: this is news to me. DC: I don't know anything about this. Bill McDowell: Yep. Uh, so basically research firms, so I mentioned panels, right? So the, you know, companies that source the people to take part in the research, right. Um, the accusation of the, uh, against this company is that they were basically, uh, fabricating or fraudulently providing research participants who weren't actually research participants. LT: Who, so were they accusing them Bill of bots or were they were, or was it was something different? Bill McDowell: Uh, yes. So they were setting up what, what we call survey farms basically is just, you know, rooms of people taking part in, in research pretending to be, you know, an HR decision maker who's, you know, evaluating new platform or product. Um, just fabricating research results. Uh, obviously like, you know, that's a terrible stain on [00:55:00] us because we're talking about, again, the, the raw material of what we do, right? If you don't have real and good people taking part in the research, then, you know, whatever snazzy analyses you have on, on, on the back end mean absolutely nothing. It's the whole garbage and garbage out. Um, and you know, it's the first of, honestly, what I see as being many companies that, that are gonna be sort of falling into this category. Uh, we have over the past, probably decade or so, um, been seeing this sort of slippage in quality of research participants. And it's, you know, this, it's all grounded in the fact that like, you know, in order to get folks to take part in research, you have to pay them for their time. Right? Right. Yes. And you know, that's, and if you're not policing that, that, that commerce, then, you know, fraud, fraud can be introduced. If you're not paying attention and making sure that the people who are coming in are genuine, then you get the bad actors are gonna come in. So bots, absolutely. There's a lot of that [00:56:00] happening these days. Right. Um, this is all stuff that we have to, as a research agency, police, and make sure that, you know, what we're delivering is, is genuine. Couldn't have imagined that, you know, back in the day, but here we are. LT: So how do you police that? Do you use just panels that you, that, that, uh, are tried and true, but then that there's a certain bias inherent in that, right? Like how do you handle that? Bill McDowell: Yeah, so we built our own panel. Um, you know, that's number one. And we actually started doing that a long, long time ago, just based on, you know, other quality issues. But again, it's just, you know, being able to control, right? Mm-hmm. Being able to build something that is of a higher quality than others that are in existence. Uh, but ours is not even squeaky clean. Um, because even if we have a really good panel at the source, anytime you open a, a bit of tech or any kind of website, right, it is subject to, you know, infiltrations from [00:57:00] overseas, from from bots. Um, sometimes it's not even members of our panel who are sneaking into to these surveys. Um, so it's a lot of different safeguards that we have have to put in place. So we have to, we have to quality check at, you know, panel registration, so when someone actually joins, make sure they're genuine, make sure they're real. Um, we have to quality check, you know, at every stage of research checking to make sure people are paying attention that they again, are real, that they're, you know, not taking part in, you know, 75 different surveys simultaneously. Right. It's a lot of fun. DC: Whoa. Bill McDowell: Yeah, I mean, it does, you know, and that's, that's just to get, you know, to the point where we can actually do our job. We gotta, we spend a ridiculous amount of resources on just data quality. Making sure again, that if we're hired to, you know, do research among home improvement contractors DC: mm-hmm. Bill McDowell: You know, for a 10 minute survey [00:58:00] that we are in fact doing that. And it's actually something that's been over the years, taken for granted by those who are receiving research. Is that like, yeah, I mean these, it has to be the right people and why should I even call that into question? But that's starting to, um, I don't know. I think you're starting to see more of these high profiles, honestly, like what terrifies me the most, and I haven't seen it yet, but is, you know, some kind of new Coke situation where someone makes a very, very expensive, very bad brand decision based on really bad data and, and Right. Potentially fraudulent. And that is going to absolutely blow up our industry. LT: And so what, just so you're, so we're clear to the brand owners Bill, what you're saying is that, um, somebody does research what they think is, is the right way to do it. Um, but they really don't have the correct participants that they, that they've tried, that they think they have. Mm-hmm. And they make a, a, a big [00:59:00] decision, IE new Koch based on that research, and then they come to find out that the panel and the people that, that were behind this is not what they thought it was. And hence they've made a billion dollar mistake on something that was, uh, that goes back to, uh, bad panel, bad participants and bad research. Right. Bill McDowell: Indeed. Yep. And I have absolutely no desire to be a part of that business school case study, you know, 10 years from now. LT: Right. So, and you mentioned that keeps you up for not just you guys, but what you're saying is if, even if your competitors make that mistake, there's a stain on you. Right. And you have no control over that Bill McDowell: Without question. I mean, look at, you know, our, our cousin political polling and how much distrust Oh yeah. Is around it these days. Right. And that, you know, much of that is just by just, you know, partisan screaming. But, you know, we, we don't trust a lot of, of a political polls. DC: I don't. Bill McDowell: There you [01:00:00] go. There you go. So, I mean, we, uh, we're, we're surveying people just like they're surveying people. Right. Um, why should CEO trust me? You know? Right. Based on my fancy haircut. DC: Okay. This is deep. Uh, Larry and Bill, uh, this, this is deep, but Larry, were you gonna say anything in response to Okay, go ahead. So I'm gonna go old school and then new school. So, old school, uh, I got a lesson, uh, pretty early in my, uh, in my career, my brand building career. I. We were talking about a research budget. I don't remember the project, but it was a research budget and I was going through it line item by line item. And um, I, I asked a question like, what, why is it so much for these particular respondents? So this would be a panel, but I was like, these respondents, the people that I wanted to research and versus I, I was pointing to some other study, uh, with d with a different set of respondents. And [01:01:00] so what they broke down for was like, Hey, the more specific Yep, your respondents, the more expensive it is to get them. And I was like, why they just walking around malls like other people? Are they not? And they say, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. That's not how it works. If you want a particular kind of person. Bill just said, uh, uh, uh, folks at, uh, I, I in the um contract research business is like if, if, if I am a person who is a small business owner and I do construction, right? If, if that's what I want as a client, bill has to find that person, right? And they're not that many of them walking around that wanna sit for 10 minutes and take your fucking survey. They just aren't okay. They just aren't. Hello. So, so I, so I got that lesson about, uh, you gotta pay the, the, the more pristine the panel, the more money it costs. Okay? So this is now, now let me go new school. Man, I remember, uh, this must have [01:02:00] been seven, eight years ago. I don't remember. Larry, you'll, you'll remember this point. I'm gonna make, Ford makes this big announcement. We're not making any more cars. We're just doing SUVs and we're gonna do one car brand. That car is gonna be called the Mustang. We're not making anything else. This is a big decision. This is a big decision. 'cause they're gonna change all their plant, uh, all their plants, CapEx, everything's going, the whole balance sheet changes because they are making a decision to go SUVs. Now, in this case, they know 'cause they're selling cars and they're also selling SUVs. So they have the data, first party data themselves from the dealerships. But let's just say they were making that decision based on some other data and it was faulty. Oh my word. Yeah. That would be to, as Charles Barkley would say, terrible. Yeah. Oh, I never thought about that man. Woo. [01:03:00] Yeah. Okay. Okay. So lemme ask you this Bill. All right. So as a client. What questions can they ask companies like yours to determine the efficacy of the fidelity, of the quality of the research? Bill McDowell: Now look, I am a product of, uh, North Carolina public schools, and we always, you know, we hover down in the, in the forties, you know, on all the lists. DC: So I, okay, Bill, what, you know, Bill McDowell: The clients should be asking, you know, and, you know, think about you responsible sourcing for, for anything in supply chains, right? And, and, you know, pick, pick your category. Pick your brand. But this is no different. Like you should be asking your vendors, suppliers, partners, whatever you refer to them as [01:04:00] where they're getting these folks and how, what they're doing to ensure quality. Yeah. And if they look at you sideways and cannot answer these questions, then probably very little. Like we are in a very fragmented industry and in most cases the folks that are delivering the insights to the end clients are not the ones doing the, the data collection or, you know, building the panels. DC: Right. Bill McDowell: There are very few morons like me in existence who actually create a company that, you know, does it all up and down, up and down the value chain. DC: Yep. Yeah. Um, Bill McDowell: I, I know if I'm, you know, sitting across from a client that I can guarantee that, you know, what traveled its way, the data point that traveled its way to their, their seat is, is correct and valid. DC: Got it. Bill McDowell: Um, but that's, that's not all the always the case. And it is a very muddy sort of journey map to get a participant to a data point to a client. LT: Yeah, that's, that's a great question, D, and I, and I [01:05:00] love Bill's answer. I do too, Dee, we've been involved in a lot of projects in the last few years where, you know, we're talking to, uh, different people about research and there's been sometimes, Bill, to your point, when people don't have the full array, you know, we're, we're coming in with, with our clients, have done research and you know, a researcher will say, well, you know, that's a panel we use. Sort of saying, Hey man, I, I do the best I can. And what you're suggesting is that, you know, um, if somebody can't answer that question and, and even if they don't, if they're forming out the panel part, they better damn well know that the panel they're using is, uh, is not bots. Right. DC: Hey, Larry, what Bill has taught me. If we ask that question of one of our clients research e either internal, external, if there's a pause. LT: Yes. DC: Okay. If there's a pause, we have our answer. [01:06:00] LT: That's right. Bill McDowell: Alright, so let, lemme give y'all some nightmares 'cause this, this will be fun. Um, okay, so, alright, so we have our own panel, right? And it's actually, it's just US based, but it's one of the bigger in existence, um, that in and of itself is, is a bad thing. Um, which I could, I could get into chapter and verse about that, but, so we use our, our panel is always, you know, kind of step one of, of sourcing the research that we do. But we often are asked to do, you know, really specific, you know, brand niches, you know, target audiences that represent, you know, a very low population incidents in the population, right? So we often do even subcontractor and, and partner with some of these other sample providers. And when we do, uh, it is not unusual for us. To clean out, up to 60, 80% of the folks that are taking part in our, our research. So cleaning them out for being just, you know, poor quality. And we are, you know, we want [01:07:00] nothing more than a, a good participant. Like we are not looking for trouble. We are not trying to, you know, be like super, you know, super nitpicky. It is just making sure that this is a person that is, you know, is who they say that they are, that they're not a bot or something, and who's obviously, you know, cheating the system. It is like our, our business, it is fraught with it right now, and it, it is terrifying. LT: So, could I say, I just wanna make sure we've got this right D, Oh, so two to two to four out of 10 of those participants are good and the rest you're throwing away. Bill McDowell: Yep. DC: Wow. Bill McDowell: You got it. Yeah. DC: Oh, okay. Okay. I gotta imagine that, right? Okay. I gotta get in here. I gotta get in here and then, and then we'll, we'll, we'll move on, but I gotta get in here now. Brand Nerds, what Bill is putting you d on game right now, he's putting you down on game, is he and his company, they take the time to go through the data to throw out the [01:08:00] 60 to 80%. They, uh, the, the, uh, 80 to 60, 60 to 80%, right? There are many firms, they don't do that. Now, let's just say this, let's say that with, with Bill's firm, they get you two to four. Let's say four of the 10, to your point, Larry, and they say, we believe in the quality of the four, four of 10. And you as a client say, okay, we're gonna move forward. Then Brand Nerds. You gotta be careful of this phrase called sta, statistically significant sample size. You gotta be, you gotta be careful about this because after you send them out to do it and then you go, I wanna cut this data four or five times. Hey, hey, sorry, I, I can't do it. If, if I do it, I cannot, I cannot tell you that it's statistically significant. 'cause our sample size is dwindled because of quality issues to begin with, this is this Woo Bill. Bill McDowell: Okay. And that now that's a good point because, all right, so we throw 'em out. But what that means [01:09:00] is we've, all right, so we've signed up to deliver 500 completed surveys, right? Yeah, yeah. Yep, DC: yep, yep. Bill McDowell: So, you know, we've got our 500, we think our job is done. We toss out, you know, six, eight out of 10 and we have to keep going until we hit that 500 that you get to 500. DC: Okay. Got it. Bill McDowell: And you know, these partners, um, are. More than willing usually to, to replace without really making a stink. 'cause they know, I mean, they know, they know what they're delivering is not good and DC: Okay. Bill McDowell: Yeah. It's not, you know, it is, this has been the dirty little secret that's been just floating around for, for years and years. But the onus is on the recipient of the data. Yes. To actually identify what is bad. And that is silly in my opinion. Like, it just, you know, I always use the comparison of, I, you know, I go through the drive through, I get my, my chicken tenders, I get a four piece. What do I expect Is that I'm gonna be able to consume all four of these chicken tenders that [01:10:00] I'm not. That's right. In what other world doesn't make sense to purchase what you know is gonna be, you know, largely bad. DC: Hey, if, if I'm ordering a, a four piece chicken nugget and I can only eat two, I, I'm telling you right now, I'm lighting your place up. Bill McDowell: That's right. It's, it's your turn, Tom. That is exactly right. DC: That's right's, right? Wow. What a great, what's popping? LT: That was great. Bill. Listen, I think it's really important that you shed some of truly the underpinnings and DC asked the perfect question. Okay. If you are on the client side, what's the questions that you should ask? Right? And that, that's, that's really critical. Um, so yeah. All right. That's, that's it, man. We're, we're here at the show. Close the, uh, shall I posit my learnings? DC: Please do. My brother. LT: All right. So, uh, I have a few, uh, nuggets here. Um, [01:11:00] uh, Bill said at the beginning, you know, when we were talking about, uh, as he's, uh, looking to bring on new team members. You gotta show some hustle. And I think that applies to everyone. Brand Nerds we, we can't say it enough. Mm-hmm. You gotta show some hustle no matter what you pursue. People, uh, really vibe with that. And you could do it in a genuine way that comes off the way it should, but show some hustle. Number two, resilience. Like mm-hmm. Bill and DC and me all, all did in the oh eight. There, there's things that are gonna come at you and you gotta, you know, you get knocked down, you gotta get back up. Um, and then, uh, I have two more. Um, what I'm getting from the whole conversation, and especially this, What's Popping Bill, is that when it comes to market research, you get what you pay for and you better find partners like accelerant who can truly handle A [01:12:00] to Z from the the beginning of, Hey, this is the problem I want to solve. To the full insights, and that includes understanding the participants and the panel folks and all those in between. Um, and so that's, that's super, just super important. And then the last one is what Bill was alluding to. Um, in this, what's popping is that ultimately, you know, you better ask the question when you're, when you're doing this research mm-hmm. You have to ask the question. So about the panel specifically whenever you're talking about panels. So are you comfortable with this panel or where are you getting these people from? Some type of digging in questions that maybe they're, oh, by the way, um, uh, you know, uh, a little said that way. And if there's a pause, you gotta think twice. Those are my, those are my, uh, learnings and those are really excellent. Dee, you [01:13:00] Floor's yours. DC: Those are great, Larry. Um, one of my favorite parts about doing this podcast, uh, lt you know this 'cause we talk about it and Jade and Hailey and Jeff, is that we learn from people like you, bill. Oh LT: yeah. DC: And so it makes us smarter. And so I just want to thank you for teaching us through this podcast. So this is the part where I share from my perspective, what is it that this human being that I'm looking at that's in a square that I've spent, you know, Larry and I have spent, uh, almost 90 minutes with like, what, what's, what's the special sauce here going on? And I'm gonna make an attempt to do that with you now, bill, on five questions. When we ask you about your first branding experience that really touched your soul, you talked about Air Jordans not to be, uh, confused with hair Jordan, right? But Air, air Jordan, uh, same family though. Same family Bill. Uh, [01:14:00] and Flight 23 store. And you mentioned, uh, you mentioned it as a toy store. That's what it felt like for you. You mentioned it as a toy store. So then, then, uh, uh, as we were coming out of the question, we weren't quite done yet. I asked you about what, what's your, what's your favorite pairs? And you talked about threes and then you said, Hey, I got a pair of Wu-Tang Clan Dunks. Okay. Black and gold. I just wore them yesterday. I'm like, oh, that's very, very interesting. I'm gonna come back to that on the fifth question. Uh, we ask you what are you most proud of? And you said, Hey, we, we've been in business since 2008, and you mentioned that, you know, you feel like we're, you are growing up. I mean, you've been in business a long time, yet you feel like, Hey, we're growing up. Growing up. And then I'm thinking about, hold on. He says Toy store earlier. He then mentions, uh. He then me, he then mentions growing [01:15:00] up and answer to another question. And then I'm like, okay, he's in the shoes. So he talks about Wu-Tang clan, uh, dunks. And then I thought, well, wait a minute now. Wu-Tang clan, by the way, I love the woo. Put the W up one time for the Woo. Okay, put the W up one time for the w. Love the Woo too. Saw. Saw them in residence at Vegas, by the way. Nice. Yeah. Oh, cool. Vegas. Thank you, Tamara. Uh, xp. Thank you. Uh, uh, Tamara and uh, and team, uh, she took, she took me. All right. So, uh, for those of Brand Nerds who don't know Wu-Tang Clan. They are really into the martial arts. Okay. And not just the physicality of it, but also the mystery of it, the stories of it, the legacies. And so Rizza, who is the leader of Wutang clan, you might hear him talk from time to time about a book called The Art of War, Zu, the [01:16:00] Art of War. All right? Which had me think that maybe because Bill, you talked about Toy Store with Flight 23 and you talked about Wu-Tang clan and sneakers, which some would say is kind of a youthful thing. And you talked about growing up, even now, 17 years later, it made me think that like Rizza and Wu-Tang is about the art of war. Maybe in your work. You are about the art of play and man, I'm looking at your wall, uh, Brand Nerds You can't see this. What are these figurines framed on your wall behind you, brother. Bill McDowell: Okay. And we got a, we got a whole array over here. We just, are we going one by one or just pick and choose? Pick and choose. Pick and choose. All right. We've got, you know, I got my storm trooper helmet. I've got little biggie over here. DC: Lil Baby Y'all. Bill McDowell: Lil Biggie. Big Biggie Smalls. DC: Oh, oh yeah. Oh, little biggie. Oh, little biggie. Okay. Bill McDowell: Biggie. Okay. All alright. Sorry. [01:17:00] Yeah, that's great. We got Dwight from the office. You know, hero of mine, cam Newton. Down here at the bottom I've got, uh, Mr. Potato Head. Uh, a Cornbread Maxwell Bobblehead doll. Wow. So I didn't go to UNCI went to Unc C Charlotte. UC Charlotte, right? DC: UNC Charlotte. Okay. My bad. Sorry. Sorry. My bad. Most famous Bill McDowell: alum cornbread Maxwell. Right? Basically the only thing good to come outta UNCC basketball ever, but I've remain a fan to this day. We can talk about my tortured, you know, fan fandom. I, I'm a Charlotte fan through and through. So I've got the Hornets awesome, the, the Carolina Panthers, which, you know, another, another seller dweller and, and then the Charlotte 49 ERs. So I, I know nothing about winning. You talk about, you know, the excitement over the NBA or the NFL schedule being released, like whatever. I can't, I can't feel any of this. I just, I know losing basically. Alright, so Hornets did, uh, just, you know, in the NBA draft lottery, um, we got number four. Dallas outta nowhere again gets DC: [01:18:00] 1.8%. Yeah. Alright, so here's the point though, bill. Sorry, go ahead. Brand nerd. That's okay. He, he goes through all of these toys, they are framed on his wall and so it made me think about the Art of Play in you brother. And the, and the toy store that you used to go into as a kid, right. That you literally have on your wall now. And it made me think about the movie Toy Story. And so I believe that you have created a workplace and this is how you are where Yeah. You do insights, but there's an art of play to it, just like there's an Art of War to Wu-Tang. So I describe you brother as the Pixar of the Research Game. Bill McDowell: Oh yes. I'll take it. I will absolutely take it. That is fantastic. LT: DC can connect dots like no one else know. Like, I mean, that's, that's just scary. Good. That's just [01:19:00] scary. Good. Um, bill, before we sign off, anything you wanna share, um, from the conversation we've had today with the Brand Nerds because, uh, we enjoyed it. Bill McDowell: Just, you know, I'd like to say thank you to y'all for, for having me. Mm-hmm. Um, no, this has been great. Uh, you know what, what research wisdom can I give is that, you know, be inquisitive like a researcher, ask questions if you're buying research, um, make sure you know where it's coming from and, and who's delivering and, and what you're getting. 'cause Yeah. Scary times. LT: Yeah. That was a, that, that was an eye-opening. Like DC said, we love, we learn on every podcast, but I gotta tell you something on this one. And, and we've been involved deep in research. That was one that, uh, was, uh, woo. Uh, oh Bill McDowell: Yeah, there are actually, so there are Reddit threads out there about how to, how to cheat at research. Basically, there are consultants that have popped up that teach people how to be fake research participants and [01:20:00] bank as a result. Like some people have full-time jobs of being professional survey and qualitative research takers. Mm. LT: That's the mic drop Brand Nerd, the mic drop. Ask the questions. That's it. Ask the questions. This has been awesome. So Brand Nerds. Thanks so much for listening to Brands, Beats and Bytes The executive producers are Jeff Shirley, Darryl "DC" Cobbin, Larry Taman Hailey Cobbin, Jade Tate, and Tom Dioro. DC: The Podfather. LT: Yes, that is he. And if you do like this podcast, please subscribe and share and for those on Apple Podcasts if you're so inclined, we love those excellent reviews. We hope you enjoyed this podcast and we look forward to next time where we will have more insightful and enlightening talk about marketing.