Latest / PlanetGeo: The Geology Podcast / What's Inside That Rock? Rock Man Ethan Penner

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What's Inside That Rock? Rock Man Ethan Penner · PlanetGeo: The Geology Podcast

0:02
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Planet Geo, the podcast where we talk about our amazing planet, how it works, and why it matters to you.
0:13
SPEAKER_00: Hey everyone, today we had the great pleasure of interviewing Ethan Penner.
0:17
SPEAKER_00: Ethan is a geoscience communicator with an emphasis on social media, and it's probably most well known for creating a series of TikTok and Instagram videos that are kind of very fun and very funny and where he bashes open rocks and finds what's inside, and it's called What's Inside That Rock.
0:32
SPEAKER_00: So you just gotta really check it out.
0:34
SPEAKER_00: You can find Ethan, he is at Rockman Ethan on all the social medias apart from Twitter.
0:40
SPEAKER_00: At Twitter he is at rockman underscore Ethan.
0:43
SPEAKER_00: And this conversation was really interesting.
0:45
SPEAKER_00: We covered lots of stuff regarding social media, traditional education, the origin story of Ethan's channels and his background, and I think you'll enjoy it.
0:55
SPEAKER_00: Before we get to the episode, you can find out more about us at planetgeocast.com.
1:00
SPEAKER_00: That's our website.
1:01
SPEAKER_00: There you can support us.
1:02
SPEAKER_00: You can find all of our transcripts and learn more about us.
1:05
SPEAKER_00: You can also follow us on the social medias.
1:07
SPEAKER_00: We're at Planet Geocast and please send us an email, planetgeocast at gmail.com.
1:12
SPEAKER_00: There you can send us emails for us or our guests.
1:16
SPEAKER_00: Last thing, if you want to learn more about minerals, we talk a lot about mineral identification in this episode.
1:20
SPEAKER_00: If you want to learn more about the basics of minerals, basically all the content you would get in an introductory college geology class, you can go to our Camp Geo conversational textbook, which is the first link in the show notes there.
1:32
SPEAKER_00: Just do a simple social login, no credit card required, and you can access a bunch of audio and images and gifts all integrated together to help you learn about minerals and rocks and plate tectonics.
1:44
SPEAKER_00: So if you have any questions, please send us an email and we hope you enjoy this interview with Ethan Penner.
1:51
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Planet Geo, Ethan.
1:53
SPEAKER_00: We're very happy to have you here and uh we're very excited to talk to you.
1:56
SPEAKER_00: Uh Rock Man Ethan, here we go.
1:58
SPEAKER_00: This is very exciting.
1:59
SPEAKER_00: Welcome.
1:59
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
2:00
SPEAKER_05: I can't wait.
2:01
SPEAKER_05: Let's go.
2:01
SPEAKER_05: I'm super happy to be here.
2:02
SPEAKER_05: Thank you guys again.
2:03
SPEAKER_00: I really appreciate it.
2:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, this is gonna be really exciting.
2:06
SPEAKER_00: I mean, we we like um, you know, Chris and I uh, well, I can't speak for Chris, but I don't really exist in the TikTok sphere, and so it's it's all very new to me, and I'm a little bit of an old guy.
2:16
SPEAKER_00: Uh and it's Jesse, I'm 50.
2:18
SPEAKER_01: Do you think I exist on TikTok?
2:21
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
2:21
SPEAKER_05: You're you're you're a little bit more hip than me sometimes, Chris.
2:24
SPEAKER_05: I don't really know.
2:25
SPEAKER_05: I see a wide a wide array of people of all ages on TikTok.
2:28
SPEAKER_05: You'd be surprised.
2:29
SPEAKER_05: There's people who are 50 and people who are 60.
2:31
SPEAKER_05: It's it's all over the place.
2:33
SPEAKER_05: Oh, that's that's great.
2:34
SPEAKER_01: As you know, Ethan, I was on it because I had to do my research on you, but yeah, I don't live on TikTok a whole lot.
2:39
SPEAKER_03: But anyway, it's a good thing.
2:40
SPEAKER_03: It's a good thing that you don't live on TikTok.
2:42
SPEAKER_03: It's a it's a hectic place sometimes.
2:44
SPEAKER_01: Well, we're gonna talk about that a little bit today, I think.
2:47
SPEAKER_01: So Ethan, let's go ahead and get started.
2:49
SPEAKER_01: We always start off with this traditional question about what got you into geoscience?
2:55
SPEAKER_01: Was there this moment that happened to you because Jesse and I each have that moment in our lives?
3:00
SPEAKER_01: What was it for you that got us into this awesome science?
3:04
SPEAKER_04: You know, it really is a great, great area of study.
3:07
SPEAKER_04: And honestly, when I was growing up, I did not like earth sciences up until I got to high school.
3:13
SPEAKER_04: I liked marine biology, I liked anything I have to do with animals.
3:17
SPEAKER_04: And I think the aha moment was realizing that I wasn't good at that, even though I wanted to be.
3:22
SPEAKER_04: I tried as hard as I could.
3:24
SPEAKER_04: And I I got to high school and I took an earth science class.
3:29
SPEAKER_04: I had a wonderful teacher, and I just knew it.
3:32
SPEAKER_04: I knew how to identify some minerals, I knew how the earth worked, I got it, and I said, okay, this is what I'm gonna stick with unless I find, you know, some other area like physics or or chemistry.
3:42
SPEAKER_04: And I realized that I hated chemistry.
3:45
SPEAKER_04: Um and uh I stuck with it.
3:47
SPEAKER_04: And from a young age, my uncle was a geologist.
3:51
SPEAKER_04: I think he still is a uh some some form of geologist, but he basically, you know, helped me get a box of rocks in front of me and just I I stuck with that.
4:00
SPEAKER_04: I kept going, I kept collecting rocks.
4:02
SPEAKER_04: But, you know, I think really the the appeal of geoscience is just that there's such a it's it's the world that you're living in.
4:09
SPEAKER_04: It's not, you know, an animal that you have to see that you might not be able to absorb.
4:13
SPEAKER_04: You can observe geology all around you, which is what makes it so exciting just to go out into your backyard and see what's around you in the world.
4:21
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that's awesome.
4:22
SPEAKER_01: So you are you from New York, Ethan?
4:25
SPEAKER_01: I am from New York, yes.
4:26
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so and we talked about this with Groove Geologists too, that New York is one of the few states that actually has a really well-established earth science program for middle school and high school.
4:37
SPEAKER_01: And and that's not a common thing.
4:39
SPEAKER_01: So very cool.
4:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
4:42
SPEAKER_04: I know both of us talked about how we wish that we had even more of high school so that people can get inspired earlier on.
4:49
SPEAKER_04: But I I'm definitely grateful for the education that I received both in high school and and uh college, how excited and passionate Northeast geologists are to get people learning.
4:59
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean it's a great uh you know, growing up in in Michigan where I grew up, geology was not in the public mind very readily.
5:07
SPEAKER_00: Like there's no real industry in Michigan and there hasn't been for a long time.
5:10
SPEAKER_00: But now living in Pennsylvania, where you know the the geosciences play a major role in the economy of Pennsylvania and New York and this whole Northeast region, uh it's definitely a different mindset where it's much more like socially acceptable to be a geologist in some way, shape, or form.
5:25
SPEAKER_00: So did you, Ethan, go into college knowing you wanted to be a geologist?
5:30
SPEAKER_00: Because I I definitely did because I had Crisple Ice in high school, and that was the the aha moment for me.
5:34
SPEAKER_00: But I knew I what I wanted to do when I went to college, which I think I, you know, I would have taken as many geology classes as as they would have allowed me, but I went to a liberal arts college, so I had to take, you know, like the classics and the survey of jazz, which I really didn't want to take, but it was actually good for me.
5:51
SPEAKER_00: So like how did you uh yeah, how did you approach college and then what did you where did you go for your master's and how did that sort of transition work for you?
6:00
SPEAKER_04: So yeah, I actually did go into college knowing I wanted to do geology.
6:04
SPEAKER_04: I was open to other options.
6:06
SPEAKER_04: I you know, I took different types of classes in my freshman year, and at a certain point I said, this is the point of no return.
6:12
SPEAKER_04: I'm just gonna commit to geology.
6:15
SPEAKER_00: What year were you when you kind of hit that point?
6:17
SPEAKER_04: I think it's it's the year like of uh uh when I was a sophomore that they kind of might it was when I I transitioned from having so I went to Bingleton University um and the the STEM college and the arts college was the Harper College of Arts and Sciences.
6:31
SPEAKER_04: So I went to a generic advisor for that.
6:34
SPEAKER_04: Uh and they would be a good idea.
6:36
SPEAKER_00: Any like general science advisor, like you you weren't dealing with a geologist necessarily.
6:41
SPEAKER_04: Exactly, yeah.
6:42
SPEAKER_04: And so they just they knew the core classes that I needed, they knew that what the they had like the the website in front of them that had the portal of all the requirements, but they didn't know what was best for me as a geology major.
6:54
SPEAKER_04: And so sophomore year, I was I realized that that happened, and I realized that they didn't know exactly what I needed to do.
7:02
SPEAKER_04: And so I met with a geology advisor, and at that point I said, okay, yep, this is I'm going full into this.
7:08
SPEAKER_04: But I think you asked another question, I forget what it was.
7:10
SPEAKER_00: Uh more about you kind of your masters.
7:13
SPEAKER_00: Like how did you, you know, how did you decide you wanted to go to grad school?
7:18
SPEAKER_00: I I think a lot of our listeners would be interested in in this, uh sort of making those career uh decisions.
7:24
SPEAKER_00: You know, how did you approach that when you had finished or when you're finishing your undergrad degree?
7:28
SPEAKER_00: Uh what was that decision like and how did you think about it?
7:31
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I got very lucky because I went to the same uh university, Bangton University, for my master's.
7:38
SPEAKER_04: I knew pretty much in my junior year into senior year that getting a master's was what I wanted.
7:43
SPEAKER_04: I didn't think I wanted to get a PhD because I knew of the time commitment that was going to take.
7:49
SPEAKER_04: Uh you know, between three and six years.
7:51
SPEAKER_01: I don't want to get over educated either.
7:53
SPEAKER_01: You know, I know what that's like.
7:54
SPEAKER_01: Uh you know, you and I are both looking at one of those right now.
7:57
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, yeah, that's right.
7:59
SPEAKER_04: Good decision.
8:00
SPEAKER_04: Good decision.
8:01
SPEAKER_04: I know many people who who have gotten PhDs, and and you know, they some speak very highly on it, some say it's a very tough.
8:07
SPEAKER_04: You have to sacrifice a lot in your schedule.
8:09
SPEAKER_04: And I said, you know what?
8:10
SPEAKER_04: I'll go to grad school.
8:11
SPEAKER_04: I got my master's just enough so I can get the advantage in the workforce.
8:15
SPEAKER_04: But you know, not everyone gets to do that, not everyone gets to go to the same college.
8:18
SPEAKER_04: And I also went through a special program for Binghamton where you started your master's in your senior year, and then you only technically had one year of grad school.
8:27
SPEAKER_00: Oh, nice.
8:28
SPEAKER_00: So it's one of these four plus one kind of programs that's really I've never heard of that before.
8:34
SPEAKER_01: Jesse, what do you think about that?
8:35
SPEAKER_01: Like you're you're okay, you're a doctor, so go ahead.
8:38
SPEAKER_01: What do you think about that?
8:38
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I so I'll be curious, Ethan.
8:40
SPEAKER_00: So what um how did your senior year differ from other people in your grade level in undergrad?
8:45
SPEAKER_00: Like under undergrads who were not in this four plus one program.
8:48
SPEAKER_00: And then how did your master's year differ from other master's students?
8:52
SPEAKER_00: I'd be curious about those two things.
8:54
SPEAKER_04: I didn't get to enjoy my senior year, that's what happened.
8:57
SPEAKER_04: No, I'm kidding.
8:58
SPEAKER_02: Uh I'm kidding.
9:01
SPEAKER_02: I'm kidding.
9:01
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it was a really I mean I think that's probably true.
9:04
SPEAKER_02: You're not kidding at all.
9:04
SPEAKER_02: What are you talking about?
9:05
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you're not kidding.
9:06
SPEAKER_01: You meant that.
9:07
SPEAKER_01: It was that's the most truthful thing you said so far.
9:12
SPEAKER_04: It was it was definitely a stressful year because you know, everyone else was saying, Oh, I'm applying to these jobs.
9:17
SPEAKER_04: And I said, you know what, I'm just getting ready, I'm just ramping up everything.
9:21
SPEAKER_04: Obviously, you don't take as many classes in your grad school years as you do undergrad because you are focusing on research.
9:28
SPEAKER_04: But people who go to the two uh two-year master's programs or the three to six year uh PhD programs, depending on where you go, and to alternate universities, you know, it's very, it's a much more stressful process.
9:41
SPEAKER_04: And it all depends on where connections come from, um, who you're who you're applying to, the time frame.
9:47
SPEAKER_04: You can take a gap year too.
9:49
SPEAKER_04: But mine was very just like boom, boom, boom, boom.
9:52
SPEAKER_04: Like that happens, this happens, you know, everything's connected.
9:55
SPEAKER_04: I never really got to take a break, but I'm okay with that because I I was ready, I knew I wanted to do it.
10:01
SPEAKER_04: Um, so you when you're going to uh graduate school, you just have to be ready to take that step and prepare for what's gonna come along with it.
10:08
SPEAKER_04: Don't go in thinking that, you know, oh, I'll just see what happens.
10:11
SPEAKER_04: You you really have to understand that not that risk, but that commitment that you're putting on yourself.
10:17
SPEAKER_00: It sounds like for somebody like you and and for somebody in your situation, it was a great decision.
10:22
SPEAKER_00: Uh so Chris, back to your question about kind of what I think about it.
10:24
SPEAKER_00: I think it depends who it is.
10:26
SPEAKER_00: Like for some people, I think Ethan, it sounds like this is a great place for you because you knew exactly what you want to do.
10:31
SPEAKER_00: You knew you wanted to do it when you went into undergrad, really, you could make that commitment.
10:35
SPEAKER_00: And if you're kind of business-like about it, that can be great.
10:38
SPEAKER_00: For some people, I think it's extremely beneficial to move from their undergrad institute and to go somewhere else and get a different network and get plugged into a different community.
10:48
SPEAKER_00: And and yeah, you spend two years instead of five uh you know, well, I guess six total years instead of five total years, but you know, for some people it's definitely worth it to do that.
10:56
SPEAKER_00: But that that's really interesting.
10:58
SPEAKER_00: I like that model.
10:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a brilliant I've never heard of it before, actually.
11:01
SPEAKER_01: Uh Ethan, all right.
11:03
SPEAKER_01: We are both really interested in your thoughts about the early classes in your undergrad geology degree.
11:09
SPEAKER_01: And I'm talking about like the the first, maybe that intro physical geology class that you took, and maybe the second class beyond that.
11:17
SPEAKER_01: Because we're kind of losing a lot of majors, potential majors anyway, to geology in environmental sciences.
11:24
SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, you're in the geoscience communication field, that's what you do.
11:29
SPEAKER_01: Do you think that we're keeping up?
11:31
SPEAKER_01: Do you know what I mean when I ask that?
11:33
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I I a lot of my friends uh will end up actually midway through their geology tracks saying, Oh, I switched to environmental sciences or I switched to engineering uh while having the geology background.
11:45
SPEAKER_04: And I don't think that's a necessarily a bad thing.
11:47
SPEAKER_04: You can know you can have environmental geology, engineering geology if that's what you want to do.
11:52
SPEAKER_04: But I do understand that the classes I took as an undergrad and like the the beginning intro-level courses, I the first class I ever took for geology was geology in the solar system.
12:02
SPEAKER_04: That's what it was.
12:03
SPEAKER_04: Uh my professor was uh named David Jenkins, and he was a great professor.
12:07
SPEAKER_04: It was a it was a lecture hall class size, probably like 50, just basic geologic uh principles gone over in the lab, but then the class itself was a geology in different planets like Mars, uh the moon.
12:22
SPEAKER_04: And I think that we are keeping up, and I think it's only gonna get better from here.
12:28
SPEAKER_04: I think the the classroom is a way that you can learn the necessary stuff, but for the real world applications and and to see how people are using geology, that's where science communication comes in.
12:42
SPEAKER_04: And and uh paying attention to podcasts or paying attention to videos, uh that's where I see a lot of feedback of people saying, I had a quiz next week and it's on mineral identification, and I'm looking at all your videos, and then they'll comment again uh in a week saying I did really well on my mineral ID quiz thanks to your videos.
13:03
SPEAKER_00: Oh nice.
13:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
13:04
SPEAKER_04: And so we'll see I was just gonna say, and you see a lot of stuff uh through social media communication that you don't see in the in the classroom.
13:13
SPEAKER_04: And a lot of the time uh the professor will help you to an extent, but he won't necessarily understand you and communicate to you in a way that uh you might see on TikTok or Instagram or YouTube or podcasts that you can relate to and be more comfortable, you know, maybe listening to while you're eating dinner or just in your in another comfortable space.
13:35
SPEAKER_00: I think you know that's a really interesting point you bring up, actually, then uh because at the moment or for the last you know many years, I've been teaching the intro-level class, and there's like 220 students in my section.
13:46
SPEAKER_00: And it's impossible to provide that really like personal level of education and and you know communicate all the individual problems and work through every problem set with each student, right?
13:57
SPEAKER_00: Like it would require all of my time all the time to do that.
14:00
SPEAKER_00: But with this social media, which I want to get into next, but with the social media thing, you people kind of can browse on their own and kind of work down these paths and rewatch things that they need to re-watch and skip over ones that they already understand.
14:14
SPEAKER_00: So it's kind of this like really unique personalized education, even though it's not really personalized, but it kind of feels like it in a way.
14:22
SPEAKER_00: That's uh and I think that's just what I'm thinking about as you're describing this, is that that's a really interesting that's a really interesting take you have on this and how how there's like an interplay between the two or an interaction between these two mechanisms, I guess.
14:35
SPEAKER_00: So that's really interesting.
14:36
SPEAKER_00: I'll have to think about that a little bit more.
14:38
SPEAKER_04: But I just think, just to add on to that, with the classes themselves, I wouldn't necessarily the internal battle of of changing versus not changing.
14:46
SPEAKER_04: If I could change something, I wish that I maybe could learn more about the specific areas of geology earlier on uh rather than just learn, you know, oh, mineral identification, but also let's just basically touch on like I wish I could have had a a crash course of structural or uh you know a basic covering of of sedimentology and stratigraphy, because uh it wouldn't have dissuaded me from taking geology.
15:13
SPEAKER_04: I think I would have just gotten more spurred on and had that more, you know, young energy of like a I'm still fresh in college and I, you know, the later on you take classes, the more you're just kind of like, all right, I'm getting into junior or senior year, losing some of the motivation of of taking and and performing in classes.
15:31
SPEAKER_04: You know, freshmen, you're you're always willing to to work hard on projects.
15:35
SPEAKER_04: You know, I think with that energy and with that uh inspiration of the uh specific classes, uh it could have uh changed.
15:44
SPEAKER_04: Not necessarily I'm not speaking just for myself, but maybe other people could have related to that and say, you know, I wish I took mineralogy as a freshman crash course rather than a specific uh difficult 300 course.
15:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I agree, Ethan.
15:59
SPEAKER_01: I think um I guess it it's kind of disjointed.
16:02
SPEAKER_01: There's I think a lot of people that go through and and graduate with a BS in geology don't understand maybe all of the connections that each thing has to one another.
16:13
SPEAKER_01: I think maybe that's what you're speaking to.
16:16
SPEAKER_01: And I agree.
16:16
SPEAKER_01: I I just I mean you have gained a tremendous traction on TikTok and Instagram with these videos on you know, what's inside that ruck, you know.
16:27
SPEAKER_01: That was pretty good.
16:28
SPEAKER_01: That was perfect, perfect pitch.
16:30
SPEAKER_01: And then hold on, I got another one.
16:31
SPEAKER_01: What's inside that ruck?
16:32
SPEAKER_01: The last part.
16:33
SPEAKER_01: That's that's awesome.
16:34
SPEAKER_01: There we go.
16:35
SPEAKER_01: That's strangely addicting.
16:37
SPEAKER_01: Um, but it is, it's great.
16:39
SPEAKER_01: I love it.
16:40
SPEAKER_01: And I just I don't know.
16:41
SPEAKER_01: I don't want to, you know, belabor the point, but it just makes me think, Jesse.
16:46
SPEAKER_01: You just said that it makes me think about things maybe a little differently.
16:49
SPEAKER_01: There's a tremendous amount of traction and and this uh natural kind of curiosity about our planet, and you're tapping it.
16:57
SPEAKER_01: You're tapping into the case.
16:58
SPEAKER_00: Let's put it this way, you don't have 1.8 million people following your lectures in that you know that you're giving in your geology class.
17:05
SPEAKER_00: Let's put it that way.
17:06
SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, yeah, exactly.
17:08
SPEAKER_00: So, Ethan, I okay, I want to kind of come back to the this maybe the origin story of of really why we're talking here is you uh you have a lot of followers, like I said, 1.8 million, I think.
17:18
SPEAKER_00: Is that what it is right now on TikTok somewhere in that volume?
17:20
SPEAKER_00: TikTok, yes.
17:20
SPEAKER_00: And you know enough where it's massive, the number doesn't matter anymore.
17:24
SPEAKER_00: I I guess I'm curious on the origin here.
17:26
SPEAKER_00: Like how how did this come about?
17:28
SPEAKER_00: Was there a moment when you were like, oh shit, this is actually like I could actually grow this into something?
17:35
SPEAKER_00: And how did you, you know, did you come at this with a really strategic thing, or did you kind of stumble upon it by happenstance?
17:41
SPEAKER_00: What was the story behind this a little bit?
17:43
SPEAKER_00: And and it's uh you are at Rockman Ethan on Instagram and TikTok if we hadn't mentioned Instagram, TikTok, um, YouTube as well.
17:50
SPEAKER_04: Not Twitter though.
17:51
SPEAKER_04: Someone got that before me somehow.
17:53
SPEAKER_00: Uh bummer.
17:55
SPEAKER_05: Dang it, you can't buy it off them.
17:58
SPEAKER_04: The account's been inactive since 2013, so maybe they had a good idea before I did it.
18:02
SPEAKER_04: Oh, irritating, irritating.
18:04
SPEAKER_04: That's really funny.
18:05
SPEAKER_04: COVID 2020.
18:06
SPEAKER_04: That was the the origin of my series.
18:10
SPEAKER_04: When I had started TikTok, I was creating silly videos before that, but nothing really that I wanted to you know keep doing.
18:17
SPEAKER_04: I was just bored.
18:18
SPEAKER_04: And after my junior year fall semester, or actually, no senior year fall semester, that's when it happened.
18:25
SPEAKER_04: Was it then?
18:26
SPEAKER_04: I see, I lose track of this stuff.
18:27
SPEAKER_04: It's it's the last thing.
18:32
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, yeah, yeah.
18:33
SPEAKER_01: So wait until you turn 50.
18:34
SPEAKER_01: Then I'm just like, yeah.
18:36
SPEAKER_01: I'm looking forward to it.
18:37
SPEAKER_01: Wait a minute.
18:37
SPEAKER_01: That that hurt Ethan.
18:39
SPEAKER_02: Holy shit.
18:40
SPEAKER_01: Ethan, did you just say that?
18:42
SPEAKER_02: No, that didn't mean that.
18:44
SPEAKER_01: No, because people always hey Ethan, it's been nice to have me on the episode.
18:48
SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah, that's a rep.
18:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, just Ethan.
18:53
SPEAKER_00: Go to Twitter, go to go to Rockman Ethan on Twitter, and you can follow him there.
18:58
SPEAKER_04: I I'm one of those people who just kind of has like the out outward reactions and then doesn't really think about what they're saying beforehand.
19:04
SPEAKER_01: What I mean really offended.
19:06
SPEAKER_04: I'm just acting because I'm offended.
19:07
SPEAKER_00: As long as it's directed at Chris, it's fine.
19:09
SPEAKER_04: You know, if I could be doing this when I'm 50, that'd be that would be amazing.
19:12
SPEAKER_04: You know, and because that's really old.
19:15
SPEAKER_04: No, that is that it's young and you still if you're 50, if you look like you're 25, Chris.
19:21
SPEAKER_04: Oh, yeah, okay.
19:23
SPEAKER_00: Okay, please, please, please.
19:26
SPEAKER_00: All right, back to the orchestra.
19:27
SPEAKER_04: We're in COVID, you know, 2020 or whatever.
19:30
SPEAKER_04: Um I think it was, yeah, so senior year.
19:34
SPEAKER_04: I knew that I I had about a hundred followers on TikTok, and I said, okay, I want to do something with geology.
19:40
SPEAKER_04: I want to combine my major with TikTok and see what I can do with it because I see a lot of people in specific niches and saying, you know, maybe cooking or or hiking or whatever.
19:50
SPEAKER_04: And it was something that I wanted to just say, you know, I didn't see any other videos of geologists on TikTok.
19:57
SPEAKER_04: I was like, maybe I'm the first.
19:58
SPEAKER_04: Who knows?
20:00
SPEAKER_04: And I made the silly series What's Inside That Rock.
20:02
SPEAKER_04: Didn't start out with singing.
20:03
SPEAKER_04: I was not comfortable on TikTok singing yet.
20:05
SPEAKER_04: And I thought that it was gonna be maybe like five, 10 videos before it gained any traction.
20:10
SPEAKER_04: I wanted to go viral.
20:11
SPEAKER_04: That was that was as simple as it was.
20:13
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
20:13
SPEAKER_00: You kind of designed that with the idea.
20:15
SPEAKER_00: So maybe you can give us just like a brief summary for those who have not seen it and who are probably gonna go on TikTok right after they listen to this podcast and go look it up.
20:23
SPEAKER_00: But what sort of what's the theme?
20:25
SPEAKER_04: I mean, it's it's a little bit self-explanatory, but yeah, and and that's the whole point, you know, just making sure people can just listen to it and they they still get a good uh experience.
20:33
SPEAKER_04: I start off with a little funny clip of myself doing something random.
20:37
SPEAKER_04: I uh find a rock, I say today's rock, and I spit it down, entertaining grab my hammer, either uh either a handheld rock pick or rock hammer, or uh sometimes if it's a big rock, I take a sledgehammer out.
20:50
SPEAKER_04: People you seem to like the sledgehammer a little bit more.
20:53
SPEAKER_04: Um I put on my safety gear, safety goggles, and and gloves, and uh crack it open, identify the mineral.
21:00
SPEAKER_01: Ethan, no, Ethan, no, you always pat the rock.
21:04
SPEAKER_04: I do pat the rock.
21:05
SPEAKER_01: I used to pat the rock, you give it a little love tap.
21:08
SPEAKER_04: That's what I've been missing.
21:10
SPEAKER_04: You know, I've been I've been wondering why none of my videos are topping the big, the big numbers.
21:15
SPEAKER_04: And I'm like, I stopped patting the rock.
21:17
SPEAKER_04: I have to show respect to it before I do that.
21:19
SPEAKER_01: You have to, yeah.
21:20
SPEAKER_01: You gotta give it a love tap.
21:21
SPEAKER_01: Ethan, I take issue with some of your rock hammers.
21:24
SPEAKER_01: I mean, your your hammers.
21:26
SPEAKER_01: I saw you try to bust one open with this little finished nailer hammer.
21:31
SPEAKER_01: Like I'm thinking, what the hell is going on here, Ethan?
21:34
SPEAKER_01: You usually bust these records open and they go to calm down.
21:38
SPEAKER_05: Chris, Chris, Chris, calm down.
21:40
SPEAKER_05: All right, all right.
21:42
SPEAKER_05: No, he's got a point, he's got a point.
21:43
SPEAKER_05: You know, I I have to know my hammers better.
21:46
SPEAKER_04: I have to understand the the challenge I'm and you know, people have duetted me sometimes.
21:51
SPEAKER_04: They've shown themselves breaking rocks open in one hit, and I'm like, listen, okay, this isn't a strength competition.
21:57
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I must say, so if uh you okay.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: So that's you so you you thought about that, thought, oh, this might be a hook and and you just went with it.
22:04
SPEAKER_00: And it actually was.
22:05
SPEAKER_00: Like, I think those are your most successful videos, right?
22:07
SPEAKER_00: I mean, well, successful, however we define successful, but those are some of your more popular videos.
22:12
SPEAKER_00: Is that true?
22:12
SPEAKER_00: Those the the series.
22:15
SPEAKER_04: You know, if I deviate from that, people will say, you know, they'll just comment on a random video and say, what's inside that rock?
22:20
SPEAKER_04: And I'm like, I didn't post that today.
22:22
SPEAKER_04: But it's funny because that's what they know.
22:25
SPEAKER_04: That's what they they interpret they assume and expect from me.
22:29
SPEAKER_04: But yeah, and after it went viral, I still did not want to to go back on your previous point of when did I know that I want to keep going with this?
22:36
SPEAKER_04: I didn't want to.
22:38
SPEAKER_04: I I did it for about a semester and then I stopped.
22:40
SPEAKER_04: I said, I am I'm a senior in college, I need to finish this up.
22:44
SPEAKER_04: And you know, I was just not very expecting this to go anywhere.
22:51
SPEAKER_04: So I made some more videos when I could.
22:54
SPEAKER_04: I had about 50,000 to 75,000 followers in a a couple months.
22:58
SPEAKER_04: But I said, you know, whatever.
23:00
SPEAKER_04: Doesn't really need to do anything.
23:01
SPEAKER_04: I'm not expecting to be big on social media.
23:04
SPEAKER_04: And when I picked it up again last year in the winter, winter seems to be a good month for me, I guess, or a good couple months.
23:12
SPEAKER_04: I just made another what's inside the rock saying, all right, let's return to it, let's get right back into it.
23:16
SPEAKER_04: Got two million likes, my channel exploded, and I said, Okay, I guess this is what I'm doing now because they know me, they know what I am, they know what I'm doing, and uh and I had no issue with that.
23:29
SPEAKER_04: I think I just never really assumed social media can be so powerful with science communication.
23:34
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, once I realized that, you know, I connected with Kate, I connected with others, and I just went with the ball rolling there, and that's how I found myself here.
23:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so okay, there's so many questions I have, but let Chris shut up and let me uh let me say something here.
23:48
SPEAKER_01: Hey, hey, hey it's see this, Jesse.
23:50
SPEAKER_01: See this?
23:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, this okay, I'll do this.
23:53
SPEAKER_00: Uh a little finger finger raise saying, Chris, Chris, Chris, be quiet.
23:56
SPEAKER_00: I want to say something.
23:57
SPEAKER_00: Um, I have bashed open many, many rocks in my day, as has Chris.
24:01
SPEAKER_00: And but yet still, for some reason, your videos are extremely entertaining to watch.
24:05
SPEAKER_00: They're very fun.
24:06
SPEAKER_00: I just find them extremely fun, even though you know I I've broken open a lot of rocks too, and the little jingle is great.
24:12
SPEAKER_00: So I have a lot of questions, but Chris, I interrupted you.
24:15
SPEAKER_00: So I I want to know where the jingle came from, though, because it's a great jingle.
24:18
SPEAKER_00: And actually, I had some of my wife's friends were visiting uh a couple weekends ago, and I was like saying, Oh, yeah, we're we're gonna interview this guy.
24:24
SPEAKER_00: Ethan, look at these videos, they're kind of fun.
24:26
SPEAKER_00: And then the whole rest of the weekend they were singing, What's inside that rock for the whole every hike we were on?
24:31
SPEAKER_00: They pick up a rock and sing this.
24:32
SPEAKER_00: So you've become popular among the yeah, I'm I'm gonna be able to do that.
24:35
SPEAKER_04: Listen, it's all about the spirit, it's all about the spirit.
24:37
SPEAKER_04: He had the spirit behind it.
24:38
SPEAKER_04: That's right, that's right.
24:39
SPEAKER_04: Enthusiasm.
24:40
SPEAKER_04: It's really not, but okay, Ethan.
24:42
SPEAKER_04: Chris does have perfect pitch, though.
24:43
SPEAKER_04: I will give it.
24:44
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, what's inside that rock?
24:46
SPEAKER_04: The theme itself came not from me, for my fans, because I have the the sound that I use.
24:53
SPEAKER_04: It's called Game Show Ring 30 by uh Fabrizio Albani.
24:58
SPEAKER_04: And it was designed, I believe, as a ringtone.
25:01
SPEAKER_04: That's what the popular theory is.
25:03
SPEAKER_04: And he has a whole bunch of them.
25:04
SPEAKER_04: So I was using it just because I wanted, I looked up game show sounds, and it was one of the ones that came up.
25:09
SPEAKER_04: I said, This is really catchy.
25:10
SPEAKER_04: I like this song.
25:11
SPEAKER_04: And I never sang it.
25:12
SPEAKER_04: I never sang it in the first year of doing it because I just wanted to talk through it.
25:16
SPEAKER_04: I didn't realize that I wanted to sing on TikTok.
25:19
SPEAKER_04: But during the second year, that's that's really funny to hear.
25:22
SPEAKER_04: By the way, that's really funny to say.
25:24
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and during the second year, uh uh people would comment and saying, you know, when you're playing that song, it sounds like the rhythm of the song can go with what's inside that rock.
25:36
SPEAKER_04: So I said, huh.
25:37
SPEAKER_04: I was listening to it, I was like, huh, dun-da-da-da.
25:41
SPEAKER_04: What's inside that rock?
25:43
SPEAKER_04: And I was like, you know what it does?
25:45
SPEAKER_04: That is incredible.
25:46
SPEAKER_04: How I never thought about that.
25:47
SPEAKER_04: And I I thanked them.
25:48
SPEAKER_04: I was like, you guys are are incredible for realizing that.
25:51
SPEAKER_04: And I just went with it from that point on.
25:53
SPEAKER_04: I didn't usually sing it in both the intro and and outro, but then someone pointed it out to me again.
25:59
SPEAKER_04: They're like, I think you should do it at the end and and make it uh a little outro for it.
26:03
SPEAKER_04: I was like, What's what's inside that rook?
26:05
SPEAKER_04: I was like, Oh, it doesn't that's just it's a testament to how interactive my fan base was to, and I was so grateful for how they just noticed that.
26:15
SPEAKER_04: And I was like, I asked them questions about how to improve my series, they they make their opinions known.
26:20
SPEAKER_04: So without like the people who who follow me and who I'm mutuals with, I would be nowhere, in my opinion.
26:24
SPEAKER_00: U Okay, what of the platforms that well, which of the platforms is your favorite, or and which are maybe the most powerful for you at the moment?
26:33
SPEAKER_00: And where do you see this going?
26:34
SPEAKER_00: We're what a two years into this, or maybe a year into it after you like re-picked it back up?
26:39
SPEAKER_00: And and you know, where do you envision this going for you um in the next sort of several years?
26:45
SPEAKER_00: It's a several questions.
26:48
SPEAKER_04: I always ask myself that, Jesse.
26:50
SPEAKER_04: I wonder because it's social media is constantly changing, and you never know what you're gonna get.
26:55
SPEAKER_04: And obviously, I have the 1.8 million uh followers on on TikTok.
26:59
SPEAKER_04: Um, that's where I got my my start.
27:02
SPEAKER_04: And then I moved on to Instagram, not because of a changing TikTok world, but because some people didn't have access to TikTok and they wanted to see my videos.
27:11
SPEAKER_04: So I I think TikTok is where I'm most well known.
27:13
SPEAKER_04: Instagram is where I have the most interactions and most solid interactions, just consistent because TikTok it's really based on the algorithm.
27:23
SPEAKER_04: Uh, you could have 1.8 million followers and not have your videos shown to half of your following.
27:29
SPEAKER_04: And it's it's very annoying sometimes, but it's just the way that the app is designed.
27:34
SPEAKER_04: With social media changing, I think that who knows, I could end up on more YouTube in the coming year.
27:41
SPEAKER_00: I think with like YouTube shorts and stuff like that.
27:44
SPEAKER_04: Exactly, more short form.
27:45
SPEAKER_04: Uh, but who knows what I'll be doing.
27:47
SPEAKER_04: Uh, short form is just definitely what I'm doing right now.
27:49
SPEAKER_04: What I'm gonna be doing in uh you know 10 years or so.
27:52
SPEAKER_04: Before I I started this, you know, I said I wanted to get an industry job, I wanted to, you know, use my master's to get a little bit ahead and uh work and get a stable income, uh, doing some sort of geologic work, whether it be consulting or working uh for another organization, maybe mining or or uh hydrology.
28:12
SPEAKER_04: But now I have this, and I think to myself, what can I do with it where I'm still doing geologic work, I'm still helping the environment and as an industry or or government professional would want to, but I'm educating others and I'm showcasing my work and I'm documenting it and interacting with people all across the world.
28:35
SPEAKER_04: And so that's where the fantastic thing about science communication comes in, where people are looking for science communicators to do the work, but also document it for their fans and their followings.
28:47
SPEAKER_04: And so I'm just taking it step by step.
28:50
SPEAKER_04: And I think that in it in 10 years, I want to have said that I have bettered the widespread public and educated and helped them understand geology if they haven't gotten to go to school for it better than if I just took up an industry job and just wanted to work uh and and and by myself doing my own thing.
29:09
SPEAKER_00: Well, I think that's a totally worthy goal.
29:11
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
29:12
SPEAKER_00: I mean that that's a great um pre-defining principle for the next 10 years.
29:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
29:17
SPEAKER_01: I do too, because I think what you're doing, Ethan, is you're elevating in people's consciousness the field of geology.
29:26
SPEAKER_01: We've got one planet, there's no planet B, and people need to understand how this planet works so that we're better equipped to take care of it.
29:34
SPEAKER_01: That's really why Jesse and I started our podcast to begin with, is we care deeply about this, and you're going at this from a different perspective, but uh your reach is uh huge.
29:45
SPEAKER_01: And uh I think it's incredible.
29:47
SPEAKER_01: I I really do, because uh you know, through these shorts that you do, you're elevating just the consciousness of geoscience, which I think is is amazing.
29:58
SPEAKER_01: I really do.
29:59
SPEAKER_04: And and uh seeing some of the comments that people still put on on videos where they'll say, Oh, there's no way that the rock is uh a million years old because the earth has only existed for 6,000 years, or they'll say, Well, you know, fossils can be 10,000 years old, and I'm like, Yeah, uh, but this one was a million years old.
30:18
SPEAKER_04: And you know, it's it's not people with hate in their heart who comment this stuff on the videos, it's people who just think that they are correct, think that the earth is flat or that the earth is hollow or that you can swim underneath the tectonic plate or something so random that you don't think about to teach in a in a class that you can say, all right, I have a very silly platform right now where I don't make always serious videos.
30:42
SPEAKER_04: Let me make a funny video where I'm just saying, hey, can you swim under a tectonic plate?
30:47
SPEAKER_04: Can the earth be hollow underneath?
30:49
SPEAKER_04: And then you answer it, and then that's how you interact with people to answer their questions instead of going up to an expert and saying, Well, is this true?
30:56
SPEAKER_04: And then they might be like, Well, you know, let me just give you this whole spiel about it.
31:00
SPEAKER_04: You know, it's very short form.
31:01
SPEAKER_04: That's what it is great for.
31:02
SPEAKER_00: I mean, but that you know, I I think you're exactly right that it doesn't matter what the hook is, but there's a hook, and you can explain really kind of deep, complicated, or for some reason controversial things.
31:12
SPEAKER_00: You can explain it in a casual way, and and it's more effective, you know, it's completely more effective and and approach it not with an adversarial, you know, approach.
31:22
SPEAKER_00: Like Chris and I we talk about this a lot uh every time we get together and have a couple beers, is you know, talk about why it's such a heated debate, why it's so contentious when when a lot of these things is just like you can sit down and have a pleasant conversation about these things, right?
31:35
SPEAKER_00: And explain to people who usually come from very different backgrounds, you know, why we think the way we do and how we understand what the interior of the earth looks like, for instance.
31:44
SPEAKER_00: You know, it doesn't matter where your platform is, it takes all kinds.
31:47
SPEAKER_00: We got to use all the available platforms, and what you're doing is is excellent, it is really cool.
31:51
SPEAKER_00: So you probably get asked this question a lot, but what what's your favorite thing you found inside of a rock in one of the videos?
31:58
SPEAKER_00: Maybe in one of the videos, and then one you have you don't have a video about that uh your best rock in your collection, maybe.
32:05
SPEAKER_04: Good question.
32:05
SPEAKER_04: I go back and forth a lot because I made a video where I was with Kate.
32:10
SPEAKER_04: I uh she came up to Bang Up 10 one time.
32:12
SPEAKER_04: We filmed a What's Inside the Rock, it's the most popular What's Inside the Rock on my on my channel, and that was where I broke open a rock and I found brachiopods inside, and that was really cool.
32:22
SPEAKER_04: But there was a rock I broke open uh when I was at home, it was in the last year's winter term, when it broke it open, and it had on the outside, I have it right here.
32:32
SPEAKER_04: It was a kind of uh tannish color.
32:36
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so though the for those on the podcast, we're looking at kind of a whitish rock with kind of a brownish-tan outer covering.
32:43
SPEAKER_00: We're only looking at the outside right now.
32:44
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so and and I would see these kinds of uh spots on the outside.
32:49
SPEAKER_04: I think this is actually probably no, that's actually the inside of it.
32:52
SPEAKER_04: I'll describe it a little bit better detail.
32:54
SPEAKER_04: There were these brown spots like garnets, aren't they?
32:56
SPEAKER_04: So there were brown spots on the outside, and I said, those can't be garnets, and I just and it looked like like pepperoni slices on this rock, and it was probably about a foot in diameter.
33:07
SPEAKER_04: It was just like a round rock, and I was like, there's no way that I just found a rock with like these garnets on the inside of it.
33:12
SPEAKER_04: And um, I was like, all right, well, let me just break it open and see.
33:15
SPEAKER_04: And Almondine garnets are the specific garnets for my area and for for New York because of the Adirondacks, that's where they're most popular.
33:23
SPEAKER_04: But I will show you this uh of what I found here.
33:27
SPEAKER_04: These are spessertine garnets, uh, and I'm 99% sure, some uncertainty because I'm not an expert on spessertine, but there were no other uh garnet types or brown, orangish minerals I could find that match this description, and so that's what I went with.
33:45
SPEAKER_00: So these are like golf ball size, reddish to they look reddish on my screen, but I think uh kind of red.
33:52
SPEAKER_04: Reddish, orangish, a little bit of brown to them.
33:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, totally cool, beautiful.
33:56
SPEAKER_04: And uh it was it was such an interesting find because usually I just identify, you know, quartz, biotite, but I post this video and they're like, How much is that worth?
34:05
SPEAKER_04: And I'm like, I don't know, I just found it.
34:07
SPEAKER_04: Like I thought I'm not uh a gemologist, and so I actually got to interact with an actual gemologist on TikTok who was just like, Oh, that looks like it could be Speciertine, but if you send me a sample, I could confirm it.
34:17
SPEAKER_04: I was like, no, they're mine.
34:18
SPEAKER_04: You're not touching any of them.
34:21
SPEAKER_04: And that's a good topic because uh it helps me say, don't take my interpretations as fact because I am not an expert mineralogist.
34:30
SPEAKER_04: I didn't get my master's in that.
34:31
SPEAKER_04: I got it in tectonic geomorphology.
34:32
SPEAKER_04: That was what I did for my master's thesis.
34:34
SPEAKER_04: I dealt with how earthquakes can affect a landscape.
34:38
SPEAKER_04: I didn't deal with how garnets form in a rock or how northeastern minerals form.
34:43
SPEAKER_04: I do this as a hobby in my time, and I'm obviously making a little bit of a career into it, but that's what it started out as.
34:48
SPEAKER_04: But this one was my favorite one because I was able to find this really kind of not super common mineral, and I got to show it off.
34:56
SPEAKER_04: And part of the allure of what's inside the rock is saying, I'm breaking this rock open, and it's not just me who's the first person who sees it, it's all of us who are seeing this rock opened up for the first time in millions of years.
35:08
SPEAKER_04: Because that's kind of uh a special thing.
35:10
SPEAKER_04: But one of my favorite rocks that I didn't uh put on what's inside that rock is uh a type of rock that I might you might expect more out west since the northeast is not necessarily tectonically active.
35:22
SPEAKER_04: It is a micro fault rock with uh bands of sedimentary rock layered on top of each other.
35:29
SPEAKER_04: It's a brown rock, kind of small, but there's a crack for anyone who's uh listening to this crack going right through it, and you can see the offset.
35:36
SPEAKER_04: It's about half a centimeter of offset.
35:39
SPEAKER_04: Uh, but this actually came from my thesis study area, and it was actually like a- which is where exactly uh central New York.
35:47
SPEAKER_04: It's uh if you know Saratoga Springs or Glens Falls, it's uh in between that, the McGregor, Saratoga, Boston Lake Fault system.
35:54
SPEAKER_04: That's where I conducted my uh research, and I was just basically looking to see if there were any offset in um the glacial and fluvial, it means uh river, river deposits, that kind of sediment that was deposited on top of the bedrock.
36:07
SPEAKER_04: So this is the bedrock that I'm holding right now, but it was whether or not there were any uh indications of it.
36:12
SPEAKER_00: That's a very uh very cool specimen right there.
36:15
SPEAKER_00: That's a totally cool one.
36:16
SPEAKER_00: I like that a little bit.
36:17
SPEAKER_00: I have a problem, Jesse.
36:18
SPEAKER_04: I have a problem with collecting rocks.
36:20
SPEAKER_00: Oh, tell me about it.
36:21
SPEAKER_00: You and me both preaching.
36:23
SPEAKER_00: I mean, yeah, Chris has Chris has a uh a fireplace that he made uh or a mantle behind the fireplace that he put all of his rocks in.
36:30
SPEAKER_00: They're set in you know, concrete.
36:32
SPEAKER_00: You set your rocks in the fireplace.
36:34
SPEAKER_04: That is so cool.
36:35
SPEAKER_00: And he built uh he's got a couple pillars, yeah, he's got a couple columns, he's got this long driveway going back to his house, he's got these pillars of like all the rocks he's collected.
36:45
SPEAKER_00: That's fantastic.
36:46
SPEAKER_00: I'm jealous.
36:47
SPEAKER_00: It's totally great.
36:48
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's like uh, you know, hashtag goals.
36:50
SPEAKER_00: Um, but I I want to say something about mineral identification.
36:54
SPEAKER_00: You should not feel bad about this because one of my PhD advisors was famous for always saying, I mean, this is a guy who's been out in the field, seen tons and tons of rocks and identified tons and tons of minerals.
37:04
SPEAKER_00: And he was always like, you know what?
37:05
SPEAKER_00: You're never sure of the mineral until you get it back into the lab.
37:09
SPEAKER_00: Like you really can't be that confident where you're out in the field because a lot of minerals look very similar to one another.
37:15
SPEAKER_00: So I mean, quartz and feldspar, maybe we can do that fine.
37:18
SPEAKER_00: But the ones like spessertine, you don't know the spessertine content of these garnets, like no big deal.
37:23
SPEAKER_00: There's not many people who will.
37:24
SPEAKER_00: So you shouldn't feel bad about that.
37:26
SPEAKER_01: Put me in the field with a group of students.
37:29
SPEAKER_01: I know that shit a hundred percent.
37:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you yeah, that's right.
37:34
SPEAKER_00: When you're around people who don't know any better, exactly right.
37:37
SPEAKER_01: No, yeah, and then there's no uncertainty there, boy.
37:40
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and it's interesting.
37:42
SPEAKER_04: So I I've worked so much in the Northeast that I'm just like, you know, I see a maroon-colored mineral, I'm like, it's garnet.
37:48
SPEAKER_04: I know that.
37:49
SPEAKER_04: I just don't know what type of garnet, probably almondine, but there's a lot of uncertainty.
37:53
SPEAKER_04: But if I see quartz, like I am the expert in quartz right now.
37:56
SPEAKER_04: People will comment on my videos being like, all this guy finds is quartz.
38:00
SPEAKER_04: And I'm like, Do you have a problem with that?
38:02
SPEAKER_04: Like, taste my face.
38:03
SPEAKER_00: There's just a lot of quartz around me where I am.
38:05
SPEAKER_00: Like, sue me.
38:07
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
38:08
SPEAKER_00: That's great.
38:09
SPEAKER_01: So, Ethan, I'm gonna well change gears just a little bit, maybe.
38:12
SPEAKER_01: So, about your content and you know what you put out, which is a variety, and I want to get into that a little bit.
38:18
SPEAKER_01: But what are you most proud of in terms of what you produce?
38:23
SPEAKER_04: The videos that I'm most proud of, or I guess yeah, like you said, content, because it doesn't have to be videos.
38:29
SPEAKER_04: It's not necessarily the videos themselves, because I I like making people laugh, I like making people happy.
38:35
SPEAKER_04: People comment sometimes my videos are wholesome or or funny or you know, educational.
38:39
SPEAKER_04: There's the three different really types of of uh genres that I divide my videos into.
38:44
SPEAKER_04: But I don't think it's about that.
38:47
SPEAKER_04: I think the videos that make me uh the most happy is when people will comment on it and say, I showed this video uh to my son, to my sister, to my dad, to my professor, and they loved it.
39:02
SPEAKER_04: They don't even have to say what they loved about it.
39:04
SPEAKER_04: I would just say to know that people are spreading the messages that I'm I'm putting out about geology and how important it is, or maybe my what's inside the rocks and how kids will like singing it and and and going out and collecting rocks.
39:18
SPEAKER_04: Knowing that I'm having an influence in these people's lives, because they don't have to like my content.
39:24
SPEAKER_04: I I've never asked anything from my followers.
39:26
SPEAKER_04: They could just see a video, like it, and move on.
39:29
SPEAKER_04: But to know that people will share it and and be so excited to share that experience with someone they're close with, it makes me so happy to know that if I stopped doing my videos tomorrow, that still would have happened.
39:44
SPEAKER_04: And that and then my videos will still be there for people to share.
39:48
SPEAKER_04: So knowing that I've I've had an impact in the scientific community, regardless of the video itself, that's what makes this worthwhile.
39:56
SPEAKER_00: That's really that's really cool.
39:58
SPEAKER_00: I I guess can you give us a little insight into what your audience makeup is if you know that or who do you interact with?
40:06
SPEAKER_00: Maybe that's the best thing.
40:07
SPEAKER_00: Like who are the types of people do you most commonly interact with and which ones do you get most value of?
40:14
SPEAKER_04: No, I'm kidding.
40:14
SPEAKER_04: I don't know the exact numbers.
40:16
SPEAKER_04: Uh I I used to, I used to look at the analytics a lot, but I don't use it, use my analytics a lot anymore just because I I've been so caught up with just you know answering people.
40:26
SPEAKER_04: People say, you know, oh, I'm from Brazil, or oh, I'm from the United States in Florida, or I'm, you know, across the world in a different country uh in the in the ocean, I'm on an oil rig.
40:36
SPEAKER_04: I have a wide range of children, they aren't the ones who are obviously they don't have accounts, uh, it's their parents who probably watch it most.
40:44
SPEAKER_04: But I'd say mostly 18 to 25 year olds, it kind of drops off to 26 to 35, 36 to 45.
40:51
SPEAKER_04: And then weirdly enough, after that like 45 to 50 range, it actually picks up a little bit.
41:00
SPEAKER_04: And people will people 50 to 60 and 60 to 70 somehow are finding more enjoyment from it than people who are like 30 to 40.
41:11
SPEAKER_04: And I'm just like, what's wrong with you?
41:13
SPEAKER_04: Why are you not?
41:14
SPEAKER_04: I'm kidding.
41:15
SPEAKER_01: But no, yeah, you are.
41:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you are.
41:18
SPEAKER_01: Don't back it off from that.
41:19
SPEAKER_01: You are what's the matter with you?
41:20
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
41:21
SPEAKER_04: But there's that, and then there's also a lot of different countries, and I think it's interesting how people who are in the United States don't necessarily see my videos a lot, but people who are in Germany, Poland, Brazil, Indonesia, I'll get comments all the time saying much love from Malaysia.
41:37
SPEAKER_04: And I'm just like, what?
41:39
SPEAKER_04: Interesting.
41:40
SPEAKER_04: I mean, that's great.
41:41
SPEAKER_04: And that's a part of the thing where it's like, how am I impacting those people who are I don't I've never even seen before?
41:46
SPEAKER_04: I've never been to Malaysia.
41:48
SPEAKER_04: But that's the wonderful thing about social media, is that you don't have to go to these places.
41:51
SPEAKER_04: You can have that connection, that influence there.
41:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's interesting.
41:55
SPEAKER_00: You think so, would you be willing to give us a little insight into the economics of this for you?
42:01
SPEAKER_00: Like, I mean, I guess one thing that comes to my mind is like, okay, 1.8 million followers sounds like a hell of a lot to me.
42:08
SPEAKER_00: Is this what you're doing full-time right now?
42:10
SPEAKER_00: Like, is this sustainable for you at the moment?
42:12
SPEAKER_00: Or what you know, I don't know, how does this work?
42:14
SPEAKER_04: I guess TikTok and Instagram and YouTube are all very different in how they reward their creators for the content they produce and the engagement they receive from it.
42:25
SPEAKER_04: It's I think widely known at this point that in a kind of ranking, YouTube is at the top for how much it uh pays its creators.
42:34
SPEAKER_04: TikTok is third among those, Instagram is somewhere in between.
42:39
SPEAKER_04: And they all kind of use some sort of creator fund method, I believe.
42:44
SPEAKER_04: I'm not sure if YouTube does.
42:45
SPEAKER_04: I'm new to YouTube, but I know TikTok uh has a creator fund, Instagram has uh bonuses that they use, and I do earn money from that.
42:55
SPEAKER_04: I started earning money on TikTok when I surpassed 10,000 followers, but it's based on what I believe is per thousand views.
43:04
SPEAKER_04: Number multiplied by thousand views you get is the amount of money you get.
43:09
SPEAKER_04: I'm not sure what the rate is, but Instagram, I think maybe it's not as high of a view count, maybe it's about per hundred views.
43:16
SPEAKER_04: And it's not full time.
43:18
SPEAKER_04: Uh, I do not earn enough to keep my myself afloat in this economy, but I find things to do otherwise.
43:26
SPEAKER_04: But a lot of people start to do sponsorships, and I kind of kept myself from doing that because that wasn't the goal originally.
43:35
SPEAKER_04: I wanted to just make content and I was just planning on saying, all right, well, now I can't make content anymore because I need to actually support myself.
43:42
SPEAKER_04: So that's all I could offer.
43:44
SPEAKER_04: But I think that going forward, a lot of people will, possibly including myself, do more of sponsorships to work with brands.
43:53
SPEAKER_04: But I think there's a push for different platforms to reward creators better based on what their engagement is.
44:00
SPEAKER_04: But I've done okay for myself.
44:02
SPEAKER_04: I've kept myself, I think, in the numbers that I'm happy with for being paid by the um platforms.
44:09
SPEAKER_04: And I think that you can't expect much from social media because whether you're putting two hours of recording, two hours of editing into a video or recording a 30-second lip sync video, they could get the same amount of views.
44:24
SPEAKER_04: So it then comes down to what your connection and what your impact is.
44:29
SPEAKER_04: And so I'm lucky to have gotten the following that I have.
44:32
SPEAKER_04: And I think that going forward, I might be able to get more compensation for what I do.
44:38
SPEAKER_04: And that would help me make better videos, make cooler expeditions where I'm maybe exploring a cave, or maybe I'm looking at a riverbed full of geodes instead of just looking in my backyard for cool rock.
44:50
SPEAKER_04: And people say, Why do you always find ports?
44:52
SPEAKER_04: And I'm like, Do you understand my situation?
44:56
SPEAKER_01: All right.
44:57
SPEAKER_01: That's that's really interesting because it's something Jesse and I know very little about.
45:02
SPEAKER_01: Ethan, I want to uh switch gears a little bit because getting ready for this interview, I watched you on YouTube, I think it was, on Ask a Geologist mineral identification through Rutgers Geology Museum or your Rutgers Museum of Geology, something like that.
45:18
SPEAKER_01: It was like an hour-long thing, and I found it to be very interesting.
45:21
SPEAKER_01: You did a really good job.
45:22
SPEAKER_01: But one of the things that you said or mentioned is that it talking about how difficult it is to identify minerals, and Jesse, you just alluded to that and what students should use.
45:32
SPEAKER_01: And you talked about these apps.
45:33
SPEAKER_01: And so that really uh you know, geoscience teacher, Jesse, you and I in a traditional like classroom, what do you think about that?
45:42
SPEAKER_01: Is should those kinds of things be uh encouraged?
45:45
SPEAKER_01: Should they be used by students in that kind of like formal setting or not?
45:51
SPEAKER_01: What do you think about that?
45:52
SPEAKER_04: It's a tough question because you want it to be right.
45:56
SPEAKER_04: And if there's any sort of inaccuracy to that, you don't want to use it.
46:00
SPEAKER_04: Not necessarily because we're perfect, we're obviously, as you mentioned, you know, you won't know unless you take a specimen to the lab and get it 100% certainty.
46:09
SPEAKER_04: I think if you go in the field and use a mineral ID app on a piece of quartz and it tells you, well, it could be quartz, it could be Chalcedony, I always pronounce it wrong.
46:18
SPEAKER_04: Um does Jesse.
46:20
SPEAKER_04: It could be it could be Jasper, it could be selenite.
46:23
SPEAKER_04: If it gives you all these options, that's cool, a very cool application.
46:27
SPEAKER_04: But I think as a geologist, you need to know whether something is or isn't to some degree of certainty.
46:36
SPEAKER_04: Like I said, yeah, I was fairly confident that that is a garnet, but I don't know for sure what type of garnet.
46:41
SPEAKER_04: But in the field, I'm not gonna let it tell me that it's could be jasper, it could be aragonite, whatever mineral I'm looking at.
46:48
SPEAKER_04: So I think I wouldn't want to rely on it for its uncertainty and its pricing, especially.
46:53
SPEAKER_04: I don't want to have to pay for something that you could just literally send me a photo of a mineral and and ask me what I think of it, and I'll tell you.
47:00
SPEAKER_04: At the same time, I think you should not necessarily rely on a college education of like I think classes that deal with mineral identification, they rely a lot on formula memorization and all sorts of uh diagram work, maybe in how minerals form, but I think the practical aspect of it, having a mineral in your hand, they need to focus on that more because you're not going to have the diagrams with you all the time.
47:26
SPEAKER_04: You're not gonna understand, well, what is the what is the silt content of this sedimentary rock?
47:30
SPEAKER_04: No, you need to understand how you can differentiate a quartz from a cal site.
47:36
SPEAKER_04: That's basic mineralogy.
47:38
SPEAKER_04: And a quartz versus a cal site, that mineral ID app might not get that right, but you can very simply determine the difference through the simple tests that you learn.
47:47
SPEAKER_04: So I have the app, I haven't paid for the the the rock ID app is what I use or I have, but there are other ones too.
47:54
SPEAKER_01: Well, it's really refreshing for me to hear you say that because you know I'm old, you've already established that, Ethan.
48:01
SPEAKER_01: And you're very young, and that's an important discussion for me because to me it's important to have the minerals in your hand.
48:12
SPEAKER_01: It's important to have these these students do the physical tests and the observational tests, cleavage and fracture and hardness and crystal form and streak and all these things that you talked about in your your thing with the with the Rutgers ask a geologist.
48:27
SPEAKER_01: You know, those are important to me, but I don't want to grow out of touch, I want to keep up, and that's how I feel.
48:33
SPEAKER_01: And it's just refreshing that you said the same thing.
48:36
SPEAKER_04: So and bringing these these tests to social media, I think, is the most important step.
48:41
SPEAKER_04: I think when you start relying on an app to identify your minerals, and notice how I don't say rocks, because these apps will not identify rocks for you.
48:49
SPEAKER_04: They won't understand the different minerals that go into that specific rock.
48:53
SPEAKER_04: They will only work if you have a mostly well-formed or polished mineral.
48:57
SPEAKER_04: You can't bring it out into the field where you see like a rough pyrite piece and be like, what is this?
49:02
SPEAKER_04: It'll tell you absolutely nothing useful.
49:06
SPEAKER_04: And so that's what I think is so important, Chris, is taking those tests to social media and saying, all right, I think I found some pyrite, but what are some tests we can do?
49:17
SPEAKER_04: Well, let's look at its luster, let's look at its see how dense the rock is and see if it scratches compared to maybe maybe it's calcapyrite instead.
49:24
SPEAKER_04: Well, if it's chalcapyrite, it'll scratch a little bit easier than if it's pyrite.
49:28
SPEAKER_04: And so that's what's important.
49:29
SPEAKER_04: Not losing touch with those core teachings, but adapting to the world that we live in.
49:34
SPEAKER_00: I was trained in and Chris was too in the uh in the days when we used to use a Brun compass to make a strike and dip measurement.
49:41
SPEAKER_00: Like if you're taking a plane, you know, you got this the rock is dipping, you want to know what angle is it dipping at in which direction, we'd use the Brunton compass.
49:48
SPEAKER_00: And then in when I was in grad school, the iPhone came out with the really slick app where it basically does this for you.
49:54
SPEAKER_00: Just set your phone on the surface and it measures that for you with a good deal better precision than a student with a Brun can do.
50:00
SPEAKER_00: Uh and so, you know, we kind of go through these technological transitions.
50:04
SPEAKER_00: Uh, and sometimes, you know, you still have to make the old school measurement because what if your phone's out of battery?
50:09
SPEAKER_00: Or, you know, what if it's not geolocating in the way you want it to, or whatever.
50:13
SPEAKER_00: So having the basic skill sets are still important, even if functionally it's much quicker to use the app.
50:20
SPEAKER_00: But exactly like you said, you gotta know where your uncertainty is.
50:23
SPEAKER_00: Like you gotta know what you know, and you gotta know what you don't know as well, because that's uh a really important point to make sure you know how sure you are and how much how trusting you are of the app or of the the new technology.
50:36
SPEAKER_00: So uh what's that saying?
50:38
SPEAKER_04: Uh it's it's you know what you know, you know what you don't know, but you don't know or something.
50:43
SPEAKER_04: I don't know.
50:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
50:44
SPEAKER_00: You the the known that you have the known knowns and the unknown unknowns and the known unknowns, and the worst ones are the unknown unknowns, the things you don't know that you don't know.
50:54
SPEAKER_00: I love that.
50:54
SPEAKER_00: That's that exactly totally scary.
50:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, totally scary.
50:59
SPEAKER_00: So uh, you know, you're a a great geoscience communicator and a very different platform than what Chris and I know, but geoscience communication nonetheless.
51:07
SPEAKER_00: What do you think is one thing that everybody should know about the geosciences?
51:12
SPEAKER_04: Like you said before, um that this is a big planet and it's the only planet that we have for the time being.
51:19
SPEAKER_04: You can't rely on it saying, you know, well, we can go to this other one in the solar system or in a different solar system.
51:26
SPEAKER_04: But you might say, well, that's the environmental scientist's job.
51:29
SPEAKER_04: It's like it's all geoscience.
51:31
SPEAKER_04: It's not, you know, geologists don't just sit by and and and drill for oil.
51:35
SPEAKER_04: That's not what we do.
51:36
SPEAKER_04: We we help the environment to the best extent that we can.
51:39
SPEAKER_04: There's different subdisciplines of geology, economic geology, mining geology, you know, oil and gas, oil and gas drink, petroleum geology, hydrology, environmental geology, engineering, there's so many different areas that don't just help with the energy industry, but with uh consulting and remediation of projects, uh building infrastructure.
52:02
SPEAKER_04: You don't want to do it in a way that's going to harm the environment.
52:05
SPEAKER_04: If anything is being done subsurface, a geologist is consulted.
52:10
SPEAKER_04: So it's not just looking at rocks all day.
52:13
SPEAKER_04: That's that's my point, is that uh you go to school for geology, but you come out knowing uh a specific thing that you want to do in your life that's going to better the planet, whether it be uh helping uh uh petroleum companies to safely mine that oil or gas, whether it's helping to remediate a big infrastructure site of contaminants in the soil, whether it's it's just looking for these minerals in a safe way, that's a geologist's responsibility because you don't want to leave it up to someone who doesn't know what they're doing.
52:50
SPEAKER_04: It's going to be done regardless of whether or not a geologist helps.
52:54
SPEAKER_04: A geologist's job is to make sure it's done in the safest way possible.
52:59
SPEAKER_04: And once we wean off of these non-renewable resources, geologists also focus in the environment on helping the environment.
53:07
SPEAKER_04: So I think that's what I'd want to tell people is that everyone who's a geologist wants to help the environment to some extent.
53:13
SPEAKER_04: They don't want to see it burned down, they want to see it made better.
53:17
SPEAKER_04: Yep.
53:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, you're you're well on your way to uh to that goal, absolutely.
53:21
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, that's uh I agree completely to that.
53:24
SPEAKER_01: Okay, Ethan, we have uh final question for you that we always ask this to our guests.
53:28
SPEAKER_01: Uh, so what has been your best day as a geoscientist?
53:34
SPEAKER_04: Tough question.
53:35
SPEAKER_04: Not when I not when I entered college, I'll just be straight up with that, obviously.
53:40
SPEAKER_04: As a geoscientist, that's a really good question.
53:44
SPEAKER_04: And I don't necessarily think about it a whole lot because I I days sometimes just mesh together as a geologist.
53:50
SPEAKER_04: You know, it's if you're breaking rocks open constantly, you know, every day, it's different.
53:55
SPEAKER_04: But I'll give it a tie.
53:58
SPEAKER_04: If that's okay.
53:58
SPEAKER_04: If you're if you're okay with me giving a tie.
54:00
SPEAKER_01: We're doing two, sure.
54:01
SPEAKER_01: We'll allow it.
54:02
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
54:03
SPEAKER_01: First we might edit one out though, Ethan.
54:06
SPEAKER_01: I'm just gonna say that's reasonable.
54:09
SPEAKER_04: Um, the first one, I'll take the day, not necessarily the entire GSA meeting.
54:16
SPEAKER_04: Obviously, I got to enjoy meeting both of you, and and the day itself was just so probably either the first day, last day, any of the days of GSA of connecting and seeing geologists as they are, people, not just seeing their research, but seeing the people behind their work and being able to converse and just have a great time with other geologists.
54:38
SPEAKER_04: I never got to do that before.
54:39
SPEAKER_00: I never really Oh, that was was GSA your first conference that you you went to?
54:44
SPEAKER_04: I went to AGU 2018, but only for a day.
54:47
SPEAKER_00: When you're an undergrad, AGU is just totally overwhelming.
54:51
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's too big.
54:52
SPEAKER_04: I wanted to cry many times, I think.
54:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it is very intimidating.
54:56
SPEAKER_00: But that the GSA, that that sort of, I mean, it's a big conference, like whatever it was, 5,000 people or something.
55:01
SPEAKER_00: But the first conference is a really transformative experience.
55:06
SPEAKER_00: I had a master's student who was who was at GSA for the first time.
55:09
SPEAKER_00: And it's just one of these like eye-opening, amazing experiences.
55:12
SPEAKER_00: I remember the first time I went to a conference in grad school, I was like, oh my goodness, this is so cool.
55:17
SPEAKER_00: This is you kind of feel like you've arrived a little bit, you know?
55:20
SPEAKER_00: It's like a really awesome experience.
55:22
SPEAKER_00: So I so I get that.
55:23
SPEAKER_00: I guess I get what you're saying there.
55:25
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and you're and like you said, AGU was very uh intimidating, but even at that, it was it was nice.
55:31
SPEAKER_04: I wish I could have stayed for longer.
55:32
SPEAKER_04: But when I walked into that convention center in Colorado, I felt at home.
55:38
SPEAKER_04: I felt like it wasn't an intimidating experience, like I could talk with any person for hours about anything.
55:45
SPEAKER_04: So that was the one.
55:46
SPEAKER_04: I I really love that experience getting to connect, to socialize, and just be there.
55:51
SPEAKER_04: The other one, a little uh on the opposite realm, was my senior year when I took uh sedimentology and stratigraphy.
55:59
SPEAKER_04: I did a field trip uh one day where we were out from I think like eight in the morning to about five or six in the evening, an entire day of geology.
56:11
SPEAKER_04: And it was the first time I had done that.
56:14
SPEAKER_04: And obviously, I'm not uh, you know, not everyone is the type of person to love waking up in the morning.
56:19
SPEAKER_04: I am not, I don't ever do that.
56:22
SPEAKER_04: But for geology, I said, you know, let's make the most of the day.
56:25
SPEAKER_04: And it was just taking measurements, uh logging data, and great people, a great instructor.
56:31
SPEAKER_04: My instructor Tim Lowenstein, he's a fantastic individual, very passionate about what he uh what he teaches.
56:37
SPEAKER_04: It couldn't have been any better.
56:39
SPEAKER_04: It was just being out in in in nature among the rocks, great class, and you know, I felt like I wouldn't rather have been anywhere else.
56:49
SPEAKER_04: I wouldn't have wanted to be in my bed at that time.
56:52
SPEAKER_04: Like I said, you know, I'm here.
56:54
SPEAKER_04: This is what I want to do for my life, for my career.
56:56
SPEAKER_04: So let's just get into it.
56:57
SPEAKER_04: Let's just, you know, that's awesome.
56:59
SPEAKER_04: Make the best of most most of it what I can.
57:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
57:02
SPEAKER_01: I think every geology major can uh can relate to that.
57:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we won't edit either of those out.
57:08
SPEAKER_00: Those are both very, very good ones.
57:10
SPEAKER_01: So, Ethan, um, we'd like to give you an opportunity before we end this to tell our listeners how they can find out more about you.
57:18
SPEAKER_04: As as you mentioned earlier uh in the podcast, uh, I have one social media handle.
57:23
SPEAKER_04: It is Rockman Ethan across Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube.
57:29
SPEAKER_04: Um Twitter is actually just an underscore between Rockman and Ethan, unfortunately.
57:34
SPEAKER_04: Otherwise, if you ever want to hear more about me and and connect with me, I'm very active on social media.
57:41
SPEAKER_04: People often think they're like, whoa, you replied to my message.
57:44
SPEAKER_04: And I'm like, I'm a person.
57:45
SPEAKER_04: I reply to messages a lot of the time.
57:47
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and if if you want a rock ID, uh or if you just want to know more about geosciences, I try my best to always answer my DMs.
57:55
SPEAKER_04: So that's the least I can do to get back.
57:57
SPEAKER_00: That's awesome.
57:58
SPEAKER_00: Well, Ethan, this has been a real pleasure talking to you.
58:01
SPEAKER_00: Uh, this has been totally fun, and just keep up the great work.
58:04
SPEAKER_00: It's uh it's really cool stuff you're doing, and and really you brought up some really good points about how the sort of traditional education space that Chris and I exist in and what you're doing in social media kind of interact in ways we can you know sort of rethink some of these things.
58:17
SPEAKER_00: It's a really uh great stuff you're doing.
58:18
SPEAKER_00: So keep up the good work and thanks for coming on Planet Geo.
58:21
SPEAKER_00: We really appreciate your time.
58:22
SPEAKER_00: This has been awesome.
58:23
SPEAKER_04: We really do, Ethan.
58:24
SPEAKER_04: This has been a lot of fun.
58:25
SPEAKER_04: Thank you.
58:26
SPEAKER_04: Thank you both.
58:26
SPEAKER_04: I greatly appreciate it coming on, and uh, I wish you both the best.
58:30
SPEAKER_00: Talk to you soon.
58:33
SPEAKER_00: Hey, that's a wrap.
58:34
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening.
58:35
SPEAKER_00: Again, you can find Ethan at Rockman Ethan on all the social medias, apart from Twitter, where he's at rockman underscore Ethan.
58:42
SPEAKER_00: And you can follow us on the social medias at Planet GeoCast, send us an email, planetgeocast at gmail.com.
58:48
SPEAKER_00: You can go to our website, planetgeocast.com, support us, subscribe, find transcripts to all of our episodes, and find out more about us.
58:55
SPEAKER_00: Last thing, please leave us a rating and review.
58:59
SPEAKER_00: That super helps the algorithm, and we love hearing back from you.