Latest / 1 to 100 / E59: The New Normal with Olivia Kory and Joe Wyer from Haus

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E59: The New Normal with Olivia Kory and Joe Wyer from Haus · 1 to 100

0:00
I was just going to ask if we successfully got every CSO at
0:02
house on the podcast, Chief Strategy, Chief Science.
0:06
I don't know if you guys have any other CSO's hanging out
0:08
security. We have a chief security
0:11
officer. Yeah, there you go.
0:12
Oh, you do? Yeah, that's.
0:14
Another one. What are you securing?
0:15
You're securing geodata Like what are you?
0:17
What are you securing? All of our customer sales data.
0:21
Yeah, got it, got it, got it. Pretty pretty important to hold
0:24
securely. Why?
0:25
Why store it? Why store it at all?
0:26
Why not just use it and get rid of it?
0:28
When I use it and get rid of it, one research 2 like it takes,
0:34
you could pull snapshots at any given point in time, right?
0:37
But then you're going to have like, let's say the results
0:38
change. You have to decompose.
0:41
If you have really big changes in results and the customers are
0:43
like, whoa, what happened? You have to go back and
0:45
decompose like, hey, was it like, was it a change in data
0:48
version? Was it a change in model
0:50
version? Was it a change in code version
0:52
of all those things? Also, there's something called
0:54
data settling, which is a whole lot of fun to deal with.
0:57
And so that's why we pull it over.
0:59
We could, you know, we, we've gotten to points for customers
1:01
where like we, we have started to talk like, hey, are there
1:04
different ways you want us to handle your data?
1:06
And no one really takes us up on it.
1:08
Oh my God. They would much rather you just
1:10
secure it. Yeah.
1:11
Yeah. They want to keep that Cecil
1:12
employed. I love it.
1:15
Wait wait, how do you how do you abbreviate all of the CS OS
1:18
them? Well, I don't, I don't I, I
1:20
prefer not having an oi think a Spock is a science officer,
1:23
right? I'm a chief scientist.
1:25
I think that's different. So I go, I'm just chief
1:28
scientist, Olivia. Yeah, 2 strategy officer.
1:32
And they got SISO like we're good.
1:33
We have enough acronym space, we can figure it.
1:35
Out they just, they just add a letter.
1:37
So it's like you start with Joe 2 letters, then you add an O and
1:40
then you add an I and then and then we got it and now we're
1:43
winning. Yeah.
1:44
Yeah, the the C titles are relatively new though.
1:47
This is like in the last probably 66 to 12 months.
1:50
We didn't do C titles before we. Didn't have, we didn't have
1:52
directors, we didn't have VPS, you know, head up was
1:56
everywhere. Like TikTok?
1:59
We're going to go backwards now with go to market and member of
2:02
technical staff. So that's I'm, I'm, I'm looking
2:04
forward to that. Nice.
2:06
I, I actually hate the, the term strategy.
2:09
Like I cannot believe I'm our chief strategy officer because I
2:11
think it's meaningless. But I've been, I've been, well,
2:15
I've just been hearing a lot now that like strategy is going to
2:17
be the only thing left soon. So maybe I should lean into it a
2:20
little bit more than I have in the past.
2:21
It's just ambiguous. Like I'm one of my core
2:23
principles in everything we do is like, call it what it is
2:26
like. And so I've like, I've, I growth
2:29
is a tough one, like in terms of, of head of growth title,
2:31
it's just like say the thing that you do.
2:33
And that's how we name our products too, besides architect.
2:36
Architect is the new one that's like kind of a fun one.
2:39
But mostly I'd say we just try to like say exactly what it is
2:42
that we do all over the company. And that's why I don't like
2:44
strategy. Yeah.
2:47
Did you like Firmat? Who said that?
2:51
Jeremiah knows. Jeremiah knows.
2:53
He's banking threes from the half court line.
2:55
Yeah. If you if you remember, we
2:57
started talking about whether you're more productive with kids
3:01
or less productive with kids. And I was telling you that I
3:03
wish that I house was 10 years ago and you were like, we have
3:06
to hit that on the pod. Yeah, that is a great place to
3:08
start. Yes, I agree.
3:10
That is a great place to start. All right, I can.
3:12
I can tee up the thought. Exercise maybe?
3:14
Yeah, go for it. Set us up.
3:15
Rashab and I were at dinner together in New York last week,
3:18
which great to meet you in person.
3:20
And I was telling him that I wish that house was either 10
3:23
years ago or 10 years from now because like if I didn't have
3:27
kids, I have two little kids. I have a four year old and a 2
3:29
year old. If I didn't have little kids, I
3:31
would like pour myself in like I would go deep in flow every
3:35
weekend. I'd be like all in on the AI
3:37
stuff, staying current, staying ahead.
3:40
And I just can't do that. Like even just just thinking
3:43
about this week. It's the last week of school
3:44
here. My daughter's in preschool.
3:46
So we had half days yesterday and today we had my husband was
3:49
out of town for work and it's just like constant
3:52
interruptions, constant interruptions.
3:54
And so I get frustrated and, and Joe, Joe's probably going to
3:57
laugh because he's, he would probably say I just need to
3:59
delegate more. This has been his feedback for
4:01
me always. But I like, I want to be
4:03
thinking about this company all day, every day.
4:05
Like it's that interesting to me.
4:06
And I think that I have a unique perspective in terms of being
4:09
able to to like, I feel like I know what needs to be done in a
4:13
lot of areas of the company and I just don't have the time to do
4:15
it. That's strategy.
4:16
No, I'm kidding. I'm messing around.
4:19
Sounds like you need a wife. It sounds like you need a wife.
4:23
But Rishabh Rishabh totally disagreed with me.
4:25
Yeah, Yeah. I don't, I don't think that's I,
4:27
I can, I see we will never know the incrementality of your
4:32
ability to understand what needs to happen in the company because
4:36
there was no holdout and. It's really good.
4:41
And I think that the here's. Here's what I've observed, at
4:44
least my, my, my, my reflection, at least on myself is a lot of
4:51
the ideas that I have are because I'm doing something like
4:56
my body is doing something else. My mind is doing something else.
4:59
But in the background, you're still processing, right?
5:01
Because like you can't really get yourself out of it when
5:03
you're so deep in the company either as the founder or see,
5:09
and then whatever your favorite letters are after that it, your
5:13
job is to like build a company. That's the job, right?
5:15
And, and if that's the job, then it's just like you're, it's,
5:17
it's always there. I, I don't, I find it hard to
5:20
believe that actually. In fact, I would say on days
5:24
when I'm fully back-to-back, I have no good ideas.
5:27
Like if I observe this morning, it's like 11:00 for me now.
5:30
I've had no good ideas all day. And it's because I've been
5:33
back-to-back so far. But this afternoon, similar to
5:35
you, it's the last week of school.
5:37
So I'm going to go to a TK graduation and I'm going to
5:40
promise you during that TK graduation, something is going
5:43
to bubble up and I'm going to be like, thank God I'm at this TK
5:46
graduation. A work thought you think you do
5:48
good work thinking when you're with the kids.
5:50
It's like anything else. It's like processing.
5:52
No matter what you do, it's either processing in the
5:54
background or you can like when you're out doing things, you
5:58
always have moments in between. You always have moments in
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between. And so I just, I just don't.
6:03
I don't you don't buy that you're fully disconnected, I
6:06
think. I mean, at least I have found
6:07
that to be literally impossible to do.
6:09
Yeah, but that's a problem too, because I have the same problem.
6:13
Like when I'm with my kids, I'm thinking about my work, and
6:15
that's a problem. It's just like I feel like they
6:18
don't get the attention from me that they deserve either.
6:21
Like being fully present with a 1/3 and five year old is very
6:25
challenging when it's just like this.
6:28
This stuff that's really interesting to me intellectually
6:29
is just constantly spinning in my head.
6:31
So I don't know, I understand what you're saying.
6:33
Like I, I think I'm kind of the same way.
6:36
I find myself if I have a lot of time to focus on something, I
6:39
find myself like almost doing too much sometimes.
6:42
Like going down rabbit holes that really weren't productive.
6:45
I do agree on that side of things and like getting out of
6:48
that can be helpful and I do find myself working constantly
6:52
but I wish I wasn't and I don't know how to turn that off.
6:55
I, I, I mean, what, what Rashab is talking about is I think it's
6:59
a really common pattern with like creatives and like from
7:01
like my academic life, researchers, engineers.
7:04
There's like that unconscious back of the head work that's
7:07
happening right when you take breaks.
7:09
But you don't you, it's, you don't have to be like still
7:14
actively thinking about it. Like those things will just pop
7:17
up. But like, cuz I run, I run in
7:18
the same thing. Like actually like me, me and my
7:20
wife are. There's a whole thing about how
7:22
much I look at my phone when I'm with my 10 month old.
7:25
And so like putting the phone away, being really present with
7:27
him, I still like, might stand up after playing with him and be
7:30
like, oh, like I, I just thought of something.
7:33
But yeah, like the and yes. And the like, when you do get
7:38
deep focus time, it's so easy to go down rabbit holes.
7:41
I find myself really often when I'm about to like go into some
7:43
deep work time, I'm like, OK, I only have a couple hours of this
7:46
a week. What can I do?
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And I like, I, I sit down and I say, like, OK, like, what is,
7:50
what am I going to do for this block that I know will get
7:52
something really effective out on the, on the back end rather
7:55
than just, I mean, I will say there is, there's totally value
7:58
for play. I think that's where like
7:59
experiencing AI right now, great.
8:01
If we're talking about understanding, thinking about
8:03
problems and solutions with AI, like play is a really important
8:05
part of it cuz we're all just figuring it out.
8:07
And I've had the biggest breakthroughs and learnings just
8:09
playing with AI, messing around on my own like equipment and
8:12
stuff. There's gonna be some science to
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this, right? Like why is Rashabs divided
8:17
attention sometimes more effective than his divide
8:20
undivided attention? Are you have limited resources
8:22
because you're occupied doing something else and you're not
8:24
proactively doing. You can imagine like in the
8:26
process of play, that's all the 2nd order effects of, oh, I just
8:29
discovered this in the process of, you know, exploring, right?
8:33
And that's influencing decisions, right?
8:35
Changes in direction. So yeah, there's gonna be some
8:38
science to this. Job there is.
8:41
Absolutely is. I don't, no.
8:42
No, there is, There is. So there's a bunch of studies.
8:44
There's a study about like walking while doing work, so
8:48
that's what I was. Thinking when you were
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explaining it. Yeah, like when you're walking,
8:51
you're more, you get more creative ideas.
8:54
There's like plenty of studies about intersections of like
8:58
different fields. So like when you're thinking
9:00
about one thing and then you intersect, it was something
9:01
else, you get more creative ideas.
9:03
There's now, I mean, like the specific thing of like, has
9:07
someone conducted a study about like spending time with kids
9:09
having in fact, I don't know, but all of the ingredients are
9:12
supportive in actual science. This is like not a yeah, this is
9:16
like not, not, not unstudied. Like the ingredients are not
9:20
unstudied. You know, what's a better time
9:22
than in a podcast for conjecture?
9:24
Could it be that salience bubbles up because like if
9:27
you're working and your deep work and you're going into the
9:29
nitty gritty of like something that needs to be solved now or
9:32
you're pulled in all the directions, you know, Rashad,
9:34
you're in an office as like 50 people that want your attention
9:37
at any given time. That might be like, you know, a
9:40
low number compared to the amount of people actually want
9:42
your time. Whereas when you're with your
9:43
kids and, you know, it's taking up very little of your mental
9:45
bandwidth, maybe what's salient and what's important is allowed
9:48
to bubble up to the surface. Let's call that science.
9:51
Yeah, I was very scientific. But Olivia, is your experience
9:55
like this? Part of the problem I have with
9:57
having little kids is like, let's say it's Friday and
10:01
there's something I really feel like I need to get done this
10:03
week. I want to be with my kids all
10:05
weekend. I won this thing like live out
10:09
doing something all of next week.
10:11
And then you've got like this time to do it and you get
10:13
interrupted. You don't get it done.
10:14
And now it's like feels like 3-4 days later, you're actually
10:16
getting this thing accomplished that you wanted to do today,
10:18
which you could have done if you didn't have or distracting you.
10:23
Like I experienced that kind of stuff a lot.
10:24
I don't know if that's kind of if you experienced that as well,
10:27
but. Totally.
10:28
I mean, in Rashad probably thinks this too, is there are
10:31
people who say like, I'm more productive with kids.
10:35
I think like I don't subscribe to the people pushing back on
10:39
the argument that that that kids are a distraction for for
10:43
founders. But I actually, I just like
10:45
objectively think I was doing better work five years ago than
10:48
I am today. Like it, it was better.
10:51
Like I know it was better. I was putting more thought into
10:53
it. I just don't feel like I have
10:54
time to like get into a deep low state and like put together a
10:57
framework for how we might need to approach a problem.
11:00
So I don't know, I, I think I might be, I might be the outlier
11:04
here. But Jeremiah, you, you said
11:06
something else, which is like mom guilt.
11:08
Like when I'm with my kids, even when I put my phone away, I'm
11:11
still thinking about work. And like, I kind of, I think
11:15
that I think that the, there's probably a more positive way to,
11:21
to, to like work it into my process versus feeling guilty
11:24
about the thoughts that come, you know?
11:27
Do you guys think there's been a bit of a collapse in leverage,
11:30
right, with just how much what individual people can do?
11:33
Because like before, the answer was clear.
11:34
You would get someone else to to do these things and you could
11:37
enjoy your life, right? Enjoy spending time with your
11:40
kids. It's probably, you know, if you
11:42
want so much more powerful now with AI, exactly how you'd
11:45
prefer to spend your time, right?
11:46
Always with your kids, kind of right, you know, within reason.
11:49
And there wouldn't be a discontentment about, you know,
11:53
splitting your time between your kids and all of the amazing
11:55
things that you could be doing to the business.
11:57
So, yeah. Is that like I'm, is this a bit
11:59
of a collapse in leverage for operators?
12:02
You know, and this kind of reminds me, oh, I've got a loop
12:04
back into house here. You know, what you guys do is so
12:07
technical, right? And it really, you know, to
12:10
think that it could be done by just humans without software
12:14
might be very ambitious, like a nice way to think about it.
12:17
But really it's like the combination of incredible humans
12:19
and incredible software, right? But if I'm understanding it
12:22
correctly, and then you know what you do with that
12:25
information, who do you get it to, right?
12:26
You get it to the wrong person at the organization.
12:28
And it's not going to be used as adaptively as it could be.
12:30
You get it to the right person or you get it to the machine,
12:33
the software, and maybe you've channeled that information to
12:37
where it can be used most adaptively for the business.
12:39
What I mean by this is that I used to say to people I really
12:42
actually don't care about like looking at the tracking, I want
12:45
Meta to know what the tracking, you know, the best information,
12:48
right? Because who cares what I think?
12:49
Like Meta is the one delivering all of those impressions on
12:52
behalf of, you know, our businesses.
12:54
So we need to get that information to Meta.
12:56
I don't need to see it. So yeah.
12:58
What do you guys think about this?
12:59
There was a few things. Collapse of leverage, flow of
13:01
information to the people that it matters most.
13:03
And then actually just to the places where it matters most.
13:06
That could be software, machine learning and AI.
13:09
Can I say something slightly spicy?
13:11
The Joe made this comment of like Olivia or Olivia said, like
13:15
Joe says I should delegate more. And I think that the critical
13:18
problem with AI especially is sometimes you'd rather build an
13:22
agent than tell someone on the team.
13:25
And that's just true. Now, like agents are pretty good
13:29
and like, I don't know if you listen to like Jason Lemkin at
13:33
all. I mean, he's the most extreme
13:35
about this, but it's like agents are better than a lot of people,
13:38
like a lot at particular tasks, especially when well directed.
13:43
Now, the problem is that they need consistent direction from
13:45
you. They're not a, they're not
13:46
actually autonomous. They're, they're like, you need
13:49
to like constantly nudge update the memory files update because
13:52
like, because like you're giving a constant context.
13:55
And I think that that's actually the, the core problem is that we
13:59
don't know how to operate. We're like all figuring it out
14:02
in real time. And I'm, I'm curious if you
14:03
would, you would agree with this?
14:05
The man, the number of times I think to myself, like the output
14:09
of this, of this task is worse than an agent that I could
14:12
build. And then I just build the agent
14:13
and prove to myself whether or not that's true is very high now
14:17
very high. And I think that that's actually
14:19
the re. I mean, the reason to not
14:21
delegate is because, Jack, the way, the way I think about your
14:23
leverage question is leverage is no longer human to other humans.
14:28
It's like there's this piece of technology now that can compete
14:31
with the human pretty well for a huge amount of tasks.
14:35
It's a huge amount, not a small amount.
14:38
Well, this is this is part of where like I, I definitely agree
14:41
with Olivia on this because I have, let's say, 40 to 50 hours
14:45
a week of time that's dedicated to my family, which is time
14:48
where I can't be reliably delegating things.
14:50
And in a world where anything can be happening at any like
14:53
around the clock, that is a bottleneck.
14:56
I mean, I'm already a bottleneck half the time because of the
14:58
fact that like I have so many things that I'm responsible for,
15:02
but now I, I have like these blocks of time that I can't take
15:04
action within those blocks of time, at least not reliably.
15:06
Sometimes I can sneak away for 15 minutes to go do something,
15:09
but it's not like a reliable thing.
15:11
Whereas I didn't have kids. That block of time is probably
15:14
like, you know, 5 to 10 hours a week of dedicated like, Hey,
15:17
wife and I are going to go on the state or do this or do that.
15:21
And the rest of the time is kind of like, OK, I can just operate
15:23
fully within that amount of time.
15:24
So I think that's like, for me, that's the biggest challenge
15:27
with having kids. And I, I think the, I think I'm
15:29
way better as a operator post kids because I've learned how to
15:33
use my time more effectively. But I probably will be better in
15:36
10 years than I am now when I don't have as much of that just
15:40
like constant demand for my attention, which I like, by the
15:43
way. I want, I want that.
15:44
I want my children to want to be around me.
15:46
Just to be very clear about that if they ever listen to those 10
15:48
years from now. But but it will be different and
15:52
it'll be easier in that context to just have to not be a
15:55
bottleneck. Dude, they're smart enough to
15:57
not listen. They're going to use Gemini to
15:59
summarize what you said, Yeah. Exactly.
16:01
They're going to go searching when they're old enough, be
16:03
like, what are all the awful things my parents have said
16:04
about me publicly? Yeah, I think, I think there's
16:06
this this discussion or like the argument over, hey, like how
16:10
much to delegate. Now you have these tools that
16:12
like can do better than maybe a person doing it manually or
16:15
versus versus those people you could delegate to now have those
16:20
tools too, right. And they could be more
16:22
effective. The thing that I think about
16:24
when I'm trying to balance this of like, do I just ask quad or
16:26
do I ask like one of my team members to go do this is like
16:29
what what is the final output do I need?
16:31
Do I just like need a report to read, OK, I can probably get
16:35
that from Claude or do I just need to like go and learn some
16:37
methodology or some do some research?
16:39
Sure, Claude. But if it's if it's something
16:41
where I need to go and and change the system or I need to
16:45
go and like get adoption, like hey, like the rest of the team
16:47
needs to be doing something this way or something like that.
16:50
Like there is more more swing through that you need and that
16:54
you, I think like you as an operator or manager, like
16:56
Rashad, we were just talking about being in back to backs all
16:58
day. Like there is an extra amount of
17:01
just people work needed to I think fully land some things and
17:05
judging ahead of time. Is this going to take people to
17:07
fully land or is in like the risk that I see is, oh, hey, I
17:11
got the agent to like write something, say this is our new
17:14
process for this. And then I ship it out and
17:16
people look at it, be able to tell like that was very heavily
17:18
AI written. How real is this?
17:20
And so if you're trying to drive adoption on your team, you
17:23
really need to think about, do I need to be having meetings?
17:26
Do I need to have someone to like finally run this down and
17:28
make sure I get adoption or not? This is what I mean by the flow
17:32
of information and the collapse of leverage there.
17:33
And I'll bring up the analogy of house again, because if you get
17:36
that information that you get from house, that's useful for
17:39
the, for the organization, it's adaptive to inform decision
17:42
making and you give it to the wrong person, it's not good,
17:45
right? It might actually be useless.
17:47
It might just be expensive, right?
17:49
Whereas if you give it to the right person, it might be
17:51
adaptive for the business, might be actually, you know, extremely
17:53
important, right? And you know, this is like
17:55
delegating that work to someone else or doing it yourself,
17:59
right? You might be as you're thinking,
18:00
oh, well, I could get someone else to build the agent for me.
18:02
But there's a difference with founders.
18:03
And maybe This is why there's tension between my personal life
18:05
and work. You know, what you're working on
18:07
in your business comes up. It's because I don't know about
18:09
you guys, but nearly all of the founders that I meet have such
18:12
an aggressive bias to action. And they're so in it, right?
18:17
Is their life right? They are.
18:19
And then this might not be found as these are people, you know,
18:20
founding members as well, people who have that high agency.
18:25
And they're just so consumed by what it is that they're
18:28
building, and they really believe in it.
18:29
But yeah, I think it's hard sometimes to delegate,
18:31
especially if you can do so much now by delegating to an agent,
18:34
right? But that flowing with the
18:35
information piece is interesting to me because I think there's
18:37
very few people who I can actually operate in ambiguous
18:41
territory where they actually, you know, where we're playing,
18:44
right? We don't actually know what step
18:47
one, Step 2, step three are. We're just figuring out as we go
18:49
along, right? Right, when we were preparing
18:51
for this, Olivia reminded me of something that I said like a few
18:55
years ago in our, in our, one of our leadership Slack channels,
18:58
like this information flow, Is it going to get to the right
19:00
person? Can they even act on it?
19:01
Like a founder can always do take whatever action they want,
19:03
right? But it is VP or head of
19:06
whatever, whatever the right person to get this information
19:08
and take the action. Something that that like we
19:11
thought about and we're really conscious of is that in the
19:13
world, the state of the world where we're successful, we will
19:16
have had to like create a change in the industry of how people
19:19
are taking it and making decisions on this information.
19:21
Because you can give out that information of like, Hey, here's
19:23
recommendations and actions that you can take.
19:25
And it's the kinds of stuff that people are used to not touching
19:28
at any sort of high frequency. We even still have conversations
19:31
where people say, oh, I can't move that line item or what have
19:33
you. And so that that value just
19:35
dies, right? That opportunity just goes away.
19:38
And so really like, and I think this is true for any sort of AI
19:41
system or any recommendation system we're going to be putting
19:43
in, we're going to have to think about like how organizations are
19:47
going to have to restructure around it.
19:49
OK. At our last cab, the most
19:53
intense conversation was around who inside the organization like
19:57
of our customers are actually going to make the shift with
20:02
what is demanded of them now that we have AI versus who is
20:05
not. And that I think is like the
20:06
critical issue. It is not just by the way, I
20:08
don't have any belief that like hey, we're going to have like
20:11
mass unemployment over time or anything like that.
20:14
But what I am saying is that there's a set of organizations
20:16
where with AI like ours, like your guys is.
20:20
Where AI adoption is very high, especially in a tech company, it
20:23
has to be and, and so we're going to see it first, which we
20:26
have with Square and so on and so forth, where there's a set of
20:31
people who understand the new job and there's a set of people
20:33
who don't understand the new job.
20:35
And it turns out when the cost of taking an action is very
20:38
like, or doing a task is low, because you can build an agent
20:41
to do it, that the expectation on judgment goes up a lot and
20:45
the expectation of understanding business impact goes up a lot.
20:48
And not everyone is trained to do that, right.
20:50
And so now what's happening is inside of every organization
20:53
you're over, you have to over lever on those two skills and
20:55
under lever on the like action oriented skills, because the
20:59
action oriented skills in a, in a, in a information business are
21:02
done by agents. It's, it's like kind of not that
21:04
hard. And and so how are you guys
21:06
thinking about not only how you will like continue to build
21:10
house the organization in that content?
21:12
I mean, then I'm happy to share for us.
21:14
Like, I have no problem being transparent.
21:15
I say the same thing to my team. But like, how are you guys
21:17
thinking about it for house? And then how do you then
21:20
communicate that to your customer?
21:22
Because like, yeah, it's not the, it's not as simple, like,
21:25
let's just say you give your customer some sort of action
21:27
layer, whatever that means, the total amount.
21:28
I mean, by the way, your customers, most of them, they're
21:31
like, hey, I've got to go from like ChatGPT.
21:33
You're asking, you're asking them to leap 2 steps from I use
21:37
chat GPD to I am using an agentic orchestration system.
21:40
They're not going to leave 2 steps, guys.
21:42
That's just not going to happen. They have to walk those next two
21:45
steps of like, now I know what cowork means.
21:47
I understand how interacting with agents works.
21:49
I understand that I need to interact with it every day.
21:51
I understand that I need to give a context.
21:52
Then they're going to go to agents and be like, OK, I
21:54
understand that there's a thing called memory.
21:56
I understand, like I am understanding how these systems
21:59
work before I get all the way to agentic orchestration.
22:01
But you're going to show up with this thing that is like 3 steps
22:04
ahead of them, right? So, so you have to tell the
22:07
executive at your customer, we got to do some training or we
22:09
got to hire some new people. What are what are you going to
22:12
tell them? Yeah, I would, I would say that
22:14
there was two things that Rashad brought out there.
22:16
One like how do we think about internally what, what we need to
22:19
change in terms of like what we're hiring for coaching,
22:21
looking for and then also how we're working with the
22:23
customers. I'm going to just I'm going to
22:24
follow Olivia on the like how we're thinking about it with
22:26
interacting with customers, but we can come back to the internal
22:29
story if you if you all want to another pitch.
22:31
So talking about how we're interfacing, working with
22:34
customers, I really like how Zach teed this up.
22:37
He had a recent article on architect, which is right like
22:39
Rashad were talking about jumping straight to like AAI
22:41
orchestrator. Like that's what essentially
22:43
we'd be doing if we just like handed architect over to
22:45
somebody. Where in finance these kinds of
22:49
systems have existed for a while, like high frequency
22:52
trading, all of that. People are not too scared of
22:53
that. Something like why is that in
22:56
finance? You know how much money you made
22:58
or lost at the end of any given cycle and marketing you can do
23:02
all the work, but at the end of the day, you are not 100% sure
23:06
what drove what and what the marginal returns on any given
23:09
thing are. And so it is ambiguous even like
23:12
not just like what that's the place are ambiguous, but then
23:15
what that's even paid off are still going to be ambiguous.
23:17
Our job is to try to make it as as clear and reliable as
23:20
possible. But how do we do that?
23:21
It needs everything we do needs to be explainable.
23:23
We need to be able to trace like where the recommendations come
23:26
from. And that's why we've we're like
23:28
been slowly building up a more like platform first approach.
23:31
There have been people that have been trying to build like very
23:34
machine learning driven, like decision multi armed bandit type
23:38
tools that just didn't really get traction because they were
23:42
just, they were just starting all the way to the at the end
23:44
problem of like, yeah, let's just go.
23:45
But the signals that they were building on, I mean, everybody
23:47
intuitively knew that they they're they're just they're
23:49
noisy, they're biased. It's not capturing everything
23:51
that we need to. And so that's why house is like,
23:53
hey, let's start with experimentation.
23:55
Let's use that to calibrate all of this messy information that
23:59
we are getting from the platforms, from marketing mixed
24:02
models, and then build the orchestration on top of that so
24:06
that we can show our work all the way up that chain, right?
24:08
And talk about it that way. And I think that's how you drive
24:11
the adoption for something that's like as ambiguous because
24:14
like it feels like a black box and it's a big leap.
24:17
Really. It's there's a human element of,
24:19
of bringing someone along the way, like having a
24:21
transformation agenda whenever you come in with a customer and
24:25
in hand holding them through, like, hey, this is where this is
24:27
coming from. Here's where all the information
24:28
is. And also here's where we're
24:29
going to show we talk a lot. I mean, Olivia and I just got
24:31
out of the conversation just about an hour ago of how are we
24:36
showing and demonstrating the value of once you take the
24:38
recommendations? How much did you get out of it?
24:41
And do you think who at the customer is most likely to
24:44
change their way of working first?
24:46
So it sounds like you have to go to the founder CFO exact level.
24:50
How does it percolate from there?
24:54
I think that they're, we've like, like Cody is just such a
24:56
good example. Like Cody is Cody from Jones Rd.
24:59
Beauty is a design partner on the system, on architect.
25:02
And it's like the, I think the marketing team, when we, when
25:07
I've talked to marketers about why not use an agentic system,
25:11
they start to name all of the things in terms of business
25:14
context and all the things in their head that they uniquely
25:18
kind of understand about the business around like reasons why
25:22
they need a human in the loop. And I remember being at a, at a
25:25
summit, I was at Dita Ski Jeremiah was there.
25:28
I saw him like kind of pushing on this of like, why can't a
25:31
system know your promotion schedule?
25:33
Why can't a system know your new product strategy or your new
25:36
product launches? Why can't a system understand
25:38
your seasonality? And so I think that what I'm,
25:42
what I'm sensing is it, it might perhaps need to be more top down
25:47
because a marketer is feeling like they like, what is the
25:51
value that I bring if I'm handing over the keys to an
25:54
agentic system? When in reality, we know it
25:57
could just give them more leverage.
25:58
But I'm, I'm feeling like it's not something that the marketing
26:01
team is bringing back into the organization.
26:04
It's a push from the organization to get more
26:06
efficient is like what I'm seeing.
26:08
And, and it's, it's not even a push.
26:10
It's like permission to do this because it feels so risky for
26:16
the marketing team. Like there's, there's so much
26:17
that could go wrong. There's the extra 0.
26:20
Like I don't think they feel the safety to go take risks in this
26:24
world. And so that's where it's where
26:26
I'm seeing like the the founder who really wants to move into
26:28
this is just moving so, so fast and they're not getting caught
26:32
up on like what can go wrong and what does this mean for me
26:36
personally? And I guess this kind of comes
26:38
back to my last question about like where is that information
26:40
most adaptively used in the organizations that you serve,
26:42
right? If you think about a human, what
26:44
are they doing? Create, read, update, delete,
26:46
right, in an ad account, maybe right, or in the, you know, the
26:50
marketing operations of the business.
26:52
But like, you know, AI can do so much more.
26:54
We were just talking about it in terms of leverage, you know, how
26:56
much execution it can have, but just in in terms of the amount
26:59
of processing, right, that that can happen.
27:01
That is outside of what's possible for a human.
27:04
You know, I would imagine that the information that you get out
27:07
of house could be so much more adaptively used by Meta.
27:10
This is often like a lack of clarity at the executive level
27:14
on like what is the goal of the of the organization.
27:16
And like the if you think of a head of growth and their title
27:20
has growth in the title, they might be gold on growing top
27:24
line revenue. You know, like the, the heads of
27:26
growth often sign most of our contracts, but it's, it is a, it
27:31
is a muscle that requires the founder to understand and be on
27:36
board with the approach in a, in a, in a very big way.
27:39
It's such a big shift that a marketer is just not be able to
27:43
get it done alone. So.
27:45
Well, if you listen to Taylor Holiday out of growth as the CEO
27:48
anyways, so. Yeah, sure.
27:51
Yeah. That's just that's just hiding
27:53
it. Yeah.
27:55
And anything to to pile on, you know, like our our company goes
27:58
nowhere without marketing leaders who really do care about
28:02
this and it like and, and adopt and people are differentiating
28:06
themselves in the labor market by taking this stance, unlike
28:09
this is what they really care about.
28:11
And so there's absolutely leaders out there that we work
28:13
with that that really care and are like focused on getting it
28:16
right. And they push us too.
28:18
They, they, you know, they, they call BS, Not that we're giving
28:21
ABS, but like, they really push like, hey, this doesn't make
28:23
sense for this reason. Look closer.
28:24
Before we lose the topic on the internal operations, like
28:27
there's a bunch of, I think the most common audience for this is
28:30
like a bunch of other software operators.
28:33
And so I, I am curious, Joe, about the internal operations,
28:36
like how you guys are deciding to run the company internally
28:40
and what are the expectations that you're setting with people.
28:43
And yeah, like are you, I mean, a different way of saying like
28:48
Olivia has trouble delegating is like every executive is an IC
28:51
and the best executives are ICS. And we, we're experiencing that
28:55
in a very big way. And so I'm curious how you guys
28:58
are thinking about what it means for how you operate a software
29:00
company right now? I think there's one the like at
29:06
the beginning of the year, what we did was we, we brought on.
29:09
I hear a lot of companies didn't do this and we did.
29:11
We, we gave everybody access to everything we said.
29:14
Here's Claude, here's Cursor, here's chat, here's Gemini.
29:19
Go play like do what you want to do, try out new things.
29:23
And I think something that was really important in driving
29:25
adoption, like in those at the start of the year too, was
29:28
leaders going in and trying things and then showing them to
29:30
the team. Hey, I did, this is how I'm
29:32
operating. This is why I do like really,
29:33
really showing it. I started taking transcripts for
29:37
all the meetings that I was having with folks and, and
29:40
putting that into my, you know what it used to be called Zetto
29:43
cast and then it was second brain.
29:44
Now I think they're called Carpathy graphs or something
29:46
like that. Now, whatever the buzzword is
29:48
for, for building your your second brain for your agent to
29:51
use, showing people that I was doing that, creating artifacts
29:55
off of that, talking to people about skills.
29:58
And so really like tons and tons of experimentation out in the
30:01
open and showing your team that you're doing that and giving
30:03
them free rein. Don't, don't, don't really give
30:05
them handcuffs, you know, within like data safety and security.
30:09
And something else that we did too is that like, at least for
30:12
my team specifically acknowledged really early on,
30:15
like, hey, like the, the expectations are like the needs
30:18
for really, really great, like execution of writing science
30:21
code and data analysis, like quad can do that for you.
30:25
What what I need is much more judgement.
30:27
You all are moving up the value chain.
30:29
And there's two like, there's two different ways that people,
30:32
I think sort of react to like the execution becomes really
30:34
cheap. They just like explode out with
30:36
all the different things that they could do and they just go
30:38
do them. And so me and me and, and one of
30:42
my directs, we wrote a doc that's that has a picture of
30:44
Jeff Goldblum in Jurassic Park where he says all you could
30:48
think about was what you could do, but you didn't stop to think
30:51
about whether or not you should. And that's so it's like really
30:54
going back to the judgement is really, really valuable now,
30:57
right? And making that very clear to
30:59
the team that, hey, like the expectations of your role has
31:02
now shifted judgement and how you use these things and what
31:04
you decide to do with them is going to be how you're going to
31:06
be evaluated. And I, I really, I think product
31:10
management, product strategy, sort of practice and expertise
31:14
is really helpful for teaching folks how to do that.
31:17
And so referencing a lot of the canonical product management
31:20
books, good strategy, bad strategy, Teresa Torres's
31:23
continuous discovery habits, like pushing those stuff out to
31:26
folks of like really teaching them like, hey, here's how you
31:28
think about judging what you should do as opposed to just
31:32
like picking the thing that you see you could do.
31:34
Oh wow, so you're investing the time to teach people and you're
31:37
like telling them where the books are?
31:39
Yeah, absolutely. And you have the.
31:41
Time to do that. In a former life, I want to be a
31:43
liberal arts college professor. So maybe this is just my bias,
31:46
but I think that's like you. So like my reaction to a good
31:50
executives or ICS, yes, but also we need to be teaching and
31:55
setting the tone for the whole team of like, hey, like this is
31:57
how we have to operate. This is what you need to learn.
31:59
Like if the because at a certain point you have the kind of
32:04
people you want, you need to create the people that you want
32:06
at a certain point in a certain point of view, if you're being
32:08
that transformational. I think there's, there's this is
32:10
like so this funny phenomenon of like, you see all these graphs
32:14
of like the most number of job openings at the same time as the
32:17
all of these large layoffs, which is easily reconciled by
32:21
the following statement, which is I don't have the time to
32:24
teach these people. So I'm going to go find the
32:26
people who are predisposed to doing it this way.
32:28
That's how you easily reconcile those two graphs, right?
32:31
All I'm all I'm asking and it's genuinely a question.
32:35
There's two different things you can teach people.
32:37
What is you can teach people how to learn, which is good
32:39
strategy, bad strategy. Teach them how to be a product
32:42
map that you're teaching them how to learn.
32:44
And you are teaching them by virtue of doing the work
32:47
yourself and showing them how to use the tools, the actual
32:50
actions that you are taking. So you're teaching them both the
32:54
skill and the knowledge and you're choosing to take that.
32:56
You're choosing to teach both, which I think is, I just think
32:59
it's interesting, right? Like you could, you could make a
33:01
different decision and say, I'm happy to teach the knowledge.
33:04
I'm not going to teach the skill.
33:05
I'm going to hire people with the skill.
33:07
Joe's a good. Joe's a good people leader.
33:09
Thank. Thank you.
33:10
Probably be better than me. The, the, the way I see it is
33:13
that it's, it's much, it's much faster, especially in technical,
33:17
in technical teams, the hiring lag can be very high.
33:19
Also, you want to get people who are mission driven, right?
33:22
This is a big principle in hiring missionaries, not
33:23
mercenaries. And so if you have people who
33:26
are mission driven and it's, you could be much faster to get them
33:30
plugged into like, hey, this is how to operate.
33:33
Then it could be to kick them to the curb and find someone new
33:36
who's already working that way. Especially when I'll go back to
33:39
this, if we're in a transformational moment, I just
33:42
have a hard time imagining finding people who already
33:44
operate that way, but also hit the Venn diagram of like
33:46
technical knowledge that I need. There's a certain extent that we
33:49
could say like, well, quad has the technical knowledge, but
33:51
still the whole pruning of the tree of all the things they
33:53
should do. That judgement does come in with
33:55
that technical knowledge and experience.
33:57
You're really challenging me, man.
33:59
You're making me question a lot of the ways I think about
34:01
things. Thank you.
34:03
Joe, you should, I don't know if this is, you should share what
34:05
we just launched with Dockmaster.
34:07
Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, it, it, it along with
34:10
talking about internal usage of AI, we just launched.
34:15
This was a really big effort with like got got a really big
34:18
staff IC engineer, our SISO and a bunch of other people involved
34:22
into essentially setting up the loop of like the software
34:26
development life cycle. Hey, like cut a ticket with
34:29
these acceptance criteria and an internal tool called Dockmaster
34:33
is what called Dockmaster is watching that ticket queue and
34:38
picking them up and taking it through the whole process of,
34:41
Hey, is this clear enough? Does this meet all the criteria,
34:44
blah, blah, blah, blah. Taking all the way to now
34:46
there's a nice PR ready to go. And like, I think it's like an
34:50
important principle that like I'm coaching the team on and I
34:52
think everybody needs to build towards is letting it, letting
34:55
the AI take the first shot at it.
34:57
Never ever as a human write the first draft.
34:59
That's the hardest part for a human in anything, is writing
35:01
the first draft, taking the first crack at it.
35:03
Editing is much easier and faster.
35:04
Let the AI take the first crack at it.
35:06
The AI is really good at first drafts, especially crappy rough
35:09
drafts. Yeah, I was very good at that.
35:11
And so Dockmaster is like is a really nice flow, just like
35:14
anything that we think is fairly like simple to write out the
35:16
criteria, especially a lot like front end tweaking, things like
35:18
that. Just write it outlet AI take the
35:20
first crack and then thinking about I think the next step is
35:24
thinking about like 1, you know, a lot of basic stuff, Dr.
35:27
adoption, like how do we have a feedback loop for that system?
35:30
So put the feedback loop on top of the loop and and then how do
35:35
we create systems like that for non engineering stuff?
35:38
I do I, you know, there's a pattern that you can think about
35:41
with a bunch of individual contributors have their own clod
35:45
skills and have all these like different things that they've
35:47
built in their clod Co works or what have you.
35:50
To me, I think it's really important to be abstracting away
35:53
from the foundational models and having an internal system.
35:56
Like I know that like HQ by by Indigo, I think it's really like
36:01
big on this. And I really agree with that
36:03
direction, creating a system where you can really easily
36:05
share and have those skills, those processes or like those
36:09
are assets for the company. It shouldn't just be living on
36:11
people's laptops or like individual cloud instances.
36:13
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it should be manageable by
36:15
team leaders, editable and curated by team leaders.
36:18
And so how do we create systems or ways that they can access
36:20
that and curate it that they don't have to go through
36:22
engineers, let's say like that's a big failure mode that I think
36:25
that it would be like asking an engineer to like change a cell
36:28
in an Excel sheet for you. Like, we need to get away from
36:30
that as fast as possible. It's absurd.
36:32
I'm the coaching thing is really interesting to me because this
36:35
is I think about similarly in that I want people to like for
36:41
their benefit and for the benefit of the company.
36:43
I want people to learn how to adopt and use these tools.
36:48
I also think that the speed doesn't matter as much as we
36:51
think it does, but like there's a, there's an aspect of speed
36:57
matters for sure, but it's like it never needs to be as fast as
37:00
we think it does. Like the, the, the way that I
37:02
think things need to move in my mind, reality is always go
37:05
slower than that. And I think that's true of
37:06
markets. I think that's true of like
37:08
customers adopting your products.
37:09
What like whatever those things are like that is, that is just
37:12
how like it doesn't move as fast as you think it's going to.
37:15
So that's kind of my, my, the way I think about this.
37:17
And I'm curious, Joe, like when you're talking about the
37:19
coaching, what I want to know is like how successful it was.
37:22
What, what do you do you feel like you've gotten people where
37:25
you want them to go? Do you think there's still a
37:26
gap? Do you feel like it's like it
37:28
worked for some people, didn't work for others?
37:30
I got, I want to know like, because I also understand the
37:33
benefit of like you go find somebody who, we've done this,
37:37
we've hired a few people who really who are already doing
37:39
this. And there is a massive
37:42
difference in the way that they operate and move compared to the
37:44
person who's learning how to do this.
37:45
And so, and it's like it takes a while, I feel like to get to
37:48
that point. So anyway, I just, I love the
37:51
theory. I think it's the right theory
37:52
from my perspective, but I also have seen the success of
37:55
bringing in outside people. So I'm curious how how it works
37:57
for you all. I think it's, it's like, not not
38:01
going to lie, there are mixed results.
38:02
There's some people that just like jump in, they get it, it
38:04
clicks. There's some people are a little
38:06
bit slower and then there's, and there's some people where, you
38:09
know, you have to repeat yourself.
38:10
It's just like coaching in any situation.
38:13
And that becomes like, frankly, it becomes, it starts to become
38:16
a performance conversation. Then right when you're at, if
38:20
you're, if you're not responding to feedback and say, you know,
38:22
the, the, we're talking about the company, the universe, like
38:25
things are just in a different place.
38:26
The role changes. We're not in a situation where
38:29
you can post a job posting and then it's gonna be the same
38:31
thing for 20 years. That hasn't been true for a very
38:33
long time. And so then it becomes a
38:34
performance conversation. Something I will say is that I
38:37
was after demonstrating the behavior a lot with showing how
38:42
I was using the tools, I came and checked in and started
38:44
asking folks directly like, Hey, what are you doing with it?
38:48
And I was pleasantly surprised and it was with a lot of stuff
38:50
that, you know, you could think like, oh, like they just like
38:52
put it together just in time for the bosses.
38:54
No, no, these are things that had definitely had to have been
38:56
built well before I asked them. Show me what you've been up to.
38:59
So I was pleasantly surprised with like how much they were
39:01
diving in from the skills because they were starting to
39:03
see the value of themselves. Every good I see, like they know
39:06
about their BS work that that like is pretty routine and
39:10
showing them how to how to like automate a lot of that stuff.
39:12
I think they jump on it pretty quickly.
39:14
I think, Joe, I'm curious if you're experiencing this in
39:17
Jeremiah, if you're experiencing this also, I just worry those
39:21
people who do get it and for whom it does click.
39:24
I don't think that they want to sit next to the person who is
39:27
not getting it. I don't actually even, this is
39:29
my fundamental problem is it's actually nothing to do with my
39:32
pay. Look, I'm impatient as hell.
39:34
So like, but ignoring that, let's pretend I was perfectly
39:37
patient. I was like sage like Joe if I
39:40
was sage like Joe. The problem is, it doesn't
39:42
matter what I think. What matters is that there are
39:45
people on my team yelling at me saying like, come on, seriously
39:49
like that. That, I think is actually the
39:52
bigger problem. This is one of the luxuries of
39:54
having surplus resources. I totally understand where
39:56
you're coming from, Rashad, by, you know, wanting to hire for
39:58
these skills because ideally you hire someone who teaches you new
40:03
things, right? Who comes in and brings
40:04
something that was missing in the organization beforehand,
40:07
right? You're not pulling them all up
40:09
and having to deal with. I don't know a friendlier word
40:12
than Luddites, but people who don't want to update their
40:14
processes and then you have to do performance reviews and that
40:16
why are you in this conversation now, right?
40:18
The all these, it's expensive. This is really expensive and it
40:21
only, it's a luxury to only very profitable businesses, right?
40:26
But I think I think this is true always of like A players want to
40:28
be around A players. And right now the A players are
40:31
using this stuff in, in, in, in their work.
40:35
And so like, I don't think that that's, I agree with Joe.
40:37
It becomes a performance conversation in the same way
40:39
that it becomes a performance conversation with any B player
40:42
at the company. So you just have to hold, you
40:44
have to hold a high performance bar like the it's, it becomes a
40:47
performance culture and you need to not shy away from those
40:49
conversations. Can I offer two things that and
40:52
you tell me if you agree or disagree?
40:54
I think there are two two differences to the previous
40:56
world of performance expectations. 1 is that the
40:58
difference between an A and AB player used to be 30% and now
41:01
it's 4X, especially in, in like development, like the
41:05
differences that you observe because of AI, because it's an
41:07
execution tool are magnified A tremendous amount, right?
41:11
Like Joe just said, like people are just producing slop.
41:14
They used to produce slop anyway.
41:16
Actually, it's just that they'd produce now 100 times more
41:19
event. So you're like, Oh my God,
41:20
that's a lot of slop. OK, so, so, so it's a magnifier.
41:24
So that's, that's one problem that I'm observing.
41:26
And the second is that the bar, you used to be able to hold a
41:29
static bar for at least three years and you could like
41:32
describe the bar, but the problem is that with the
41:34
technology changing, the bar is shifting.
41:37
And so it's, it's like you're constantly being graded on a
41:39
curve, right? And that curve is shifting
41:41
because the best people are just moving it further and further
41:43
up. And I think that those two
41:45
dynamics are not, are not the same as two years ago, or at
41:47
least my, my experience of it is not the same as two years ago.
41:50
I don't know how you would react to that.
41:52
SO22 statements that you're wondering whether or not we
41:55
agree with one that the difference between A&B players
41:57
has grown. Yeah, yeah.
41:59
I think something that like you said, like before, it was only
42:01
30%. I think before it was also still
42:03
multiples, especially we talked about like dragging down the
42:06
morale of superstars, things like that.
42:09
I think it was still also like pretty big.
42:11
But yes, yes, I think it has grown the And then the second
42:15
part was the expectations are changing quickly.
42:20
Also agree. I guess what I would say to
42:22
like, I, I do think that communicating the expectations
42:26
clearly and coming to a decision of how long you're willing to
42:31
wait. And it's like that's important
42:32
in the context of your business and the organization, the team,
42:35
your ability to replace the talent.
42:36
It's like, there's many variables here that like I can't
42:39
dictate for anyone, right? However, something I do strongly
42:42
believe is that if you, if you create a culture or setting
42:45
where the expectations can change and you'll act on them
42:48
before essentially like talking to people or they have like an
42:51
understanding, it becomes very challenging where people will be
42:54
like, hey, it's like there's just an axe hanging over my head
42:56
at any moment. And stress, like we were just
42:59
talking about the science of creativity and things like that.
43:01
Like it there is a very clear, documented pattern of stress
43:05
pushes back on creativity. Totally, totally.
43:09
This was excellent in ways that I did not expect.
43:13
Olivia, you brought your chief scientist, but he's like your
43:15
chief people officer. As I said, he's my Sherpa.
43:19
Yeah, this is Joe is my Joe is my AI realist.
43:23
I I think he's, he's very much at the cutting edge of what's
43:25
possible, but he's very realistic about how we make it
43:28
work inside of our organization. Now I'm feeling like that.
43:31
I hope I didn't. I hope I didn't dominate the
43:33
conversation. If there's anything else that we
43:34
wanted to talk about, you know, I'm, I'm able to go over.
43:37
Our whole thing is that we just kind of like, I can often see
43:39
where it goes so. I also don't think that there's
43:42
anything more important for operators to hear about than how
43:45
to manage their organization in this moment of change.
43:47
So I don't I can't think of a more important topic.
43:51
I'm not sure if you guys noticed, but I think there was a
43:53
bit of a through line through the whole conversation about
43:54
quality of information, right? And that's kind of like what
43:56
House is about, right? But.
43:58
I love that Jack knows what we do.
44:00
Jack, thanks for knowing what. We do.
44:01
I got to I got to spill the beans.
44:03
I my full interaction with you guys.
44:05
I'm sorry, I've never been a customer, but I've opened up
44:08
this blog so many times using house to do exactly what house
44:13
is meant to solve and just saying, hey, Jabby Coffee did
44:15
this thing and maybe you should try it too.
44:17
But really you need like an individual answer that's based
44:19
on your actual business. But this article, I can't tell
44:22
you guys, if you look at like your Google Analytics for like
44:24
the the the number of times this blog page has been opened, it's
44:27
me. Oh, I've got to tell our
44:29
marketing team this is one of my favorites too.
44:31
I still talk about this one all the time.
44:33
It's like the most clear example of the power of incrementality
44:37
is the Javi Coffee case study, so.
44:40
Yeah, let's get one. Awesome, Jack, one day.
44:41
Maybe I actually have. To OK.
44:44
Thanks, Rashad. Thanks so much guys.