Latest / The SME Stream / EnableMe's Hannah McQueen: 'Earning money doesn’t mean that you know how to grow

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EnableMe's Hannah McQueen: 'Earning money doesn’t mean that you know how to grow · The SME Stream

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Liam Dan, New Zealand Herald's Business editor at
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: Large and welcome to this episode of Money Talks. This
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: is a podcast about money, but we're not going to
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: tell you how to get rich, and we're not going
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: to try and pick the next interest rate move. In
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: this series, I'll be talking to interesting New Zealanders about
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: how money has shaped their lives and what they've learned
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: over the years. For today's podcast, I'm joined by popular
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: financial advisor, author and founder of enable Me, Hannah McQueen cure. Hannah,
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: welcome to Money Talks.
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  Speaker 2: Thank you.
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  Speaker 1: Look I said popular there in the intro. You have
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: become a little bit of a household name from media
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: appearances over the years. Do you get people recognizing you
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: in the street and asking for money advice? Now, yes,
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  Speaker 1: I do.
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  Speaker 2: Whether I'm at the mall or I'm doing something maybe
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: in a restaurant, and someone will come over normally as
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: I've got a mouthful off foods to ask a question
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: or to say.
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we're wondering what if you're splashing out and you.
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  Speaker 2: Know it's not a good lot if I've got shopping bags,
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  Speaker 2: for sure.
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  Speaker 1: But you're generally happy to sort of chat to.
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  Speaker 2: Of course, Yeah, of course I love talking to people,
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  Speaker 2: and I think when it comes to money, it's such
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  Speaker 2: an emotional, an emotional topic, and if someone feels comfortable
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  Speaker 2: talking to you or then that that's probably the only
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  Speaker 2: person there are willing to take advice from.
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  Speaker 1: So it's a privilege. So any big question, you have
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: one or two big questions that you get most often.
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  Speaker 2: Yep, the big questions, how do we get ahead? I
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: don't think I'm going to be able to retire? What
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: can I do? Or the conclusions people make that they
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: don't really ask about, but say as a statement, I'm
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: not really that bad with my money, therefore I can't
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  Speaker 2: see how I could be much better. Therefore there obviously
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: isn't anything I could do. That's sort of I get it,
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: like why they've made those conclusions, but it's not quite
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: the right conclusion.
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: Well, we'll get into some of that. I mean, I'm
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: in a slightly different space more economics. I tend to
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: get the question, you know what's going to They want
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: me to protect the future. You know, what's going to
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: happen to interest rates, what's going to happen to the economy,
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: And I don't know how worried should we be about whatever?
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: And I always say, how worried do you like to?
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  Speaker 1: Because there's always something to worry about.
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: That's right, worry about what you can control usually.
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, let's jump back a bit because money talks
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: are sort of about memories of money and things. What
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: were your first memories of having money in your hands
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  Speaker 1: and holding money? Do you remember when it first entered
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: your consciousness?
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  Speaker 2: Yep? I remember, I don't know, getting paid twenty cents
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: to do something. I remember my first purchase that I
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: really saved up for, which was a pair of white
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: rebox right, that was my big first purchase. And I
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: remember saving up for cassette tapes as well.
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: Yep. Yeah, so this was things that were like at
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: the rebox obviously, where they were too flash for the
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: parents just to buy.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, my parents wouldn't have been able to afford them,
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  Speaker 2: or I wouldn't have wanted to spend money even if
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: they could have afforded them on something so trite in
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  Speaker 2: their mind.
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  Speaker 1: Well, it's a good, good life lesson as well, though,
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  Speaker 1: isn't it, because it sort of gets you focused on
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  Speaker 1: what you have to do to get there.
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  Speaker 2: That's right, you break it down into your little steps.
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  Speaker 2: And I don't know what. I had a little part
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: time job. I used to deliver pamphlets, and I think
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: I worked in the library, and I used to do
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: some busking, and I think I got paid a lot
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: one particular date, and I think that it was from
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  Speaker 2: a shop owner next to where I was busking, which
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: was the difference, so I could get my shoes. But
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: I think they were paying me to stop playing, as
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: opposed to reward.
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  Speaker 1: My amazing singing. I wasn't just guitar or a corder.
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  Speaker 2: I was playing what was it, clarinet? I think was
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  Speaker 2: the main one.
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  Speaker 1: There's always a joint.
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  Speaker 2: I don't know. I look back, I'm like, why did
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  Speaker 2: you let me play that?
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  Speaker 1: I was quite taken in one I said, you're encouraged
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: by your mother to read the business pages in the
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  Speaker 1: newspaper from a young age, and that that was sort
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  Speaker 1: of where you spotted that you realized that a large
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  Speaker 1: percentage of CEOs out there were accountants, and then it
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: sparked your interest. I mean, what do you remember from
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: the business pages in those days?
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  Speaker 2: Well, it felt like a different world, really, And I
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: guess you've got an option as to whether you want
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: to be the person who waits on the table or
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: sits at the table. And I always wanted to be
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  Speaker 2: someone who sat at the table from a career perspective.
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  Speaker 2: And my mum highlighted to me very early on that
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  Speaker 2: I've got expensive tastes or I like nice things, and
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  Speaker 2: so I'm going to need to have to earn good
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: money for that lifestyle. And so that just sort of
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: put me on a course. And she said, why don't
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: you start reading the business pages and see what people
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: are talking about, see what jobs are available. And maybe
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  Speaker 2: I was at intermediate when I started doing that, so
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  Speaker 2: quite young, and it definitely shaped a path for me.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, we find I've found over the years of
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: business journalism that people come into it as they get
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  Speaker 1: the mortgage and as they get a bit older, they
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: get worried and they start reading them. But I guess,
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: you know, to understand it's quite an advantage really to
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  Speaker 1: understand that language and just understand it's almost like a
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  Speaker 1: sort of soap opera of the economy, then what's happening
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  Speaker 1: in business, And it's not that hard once you make
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  Speaker 1: the leap into it. I always think.
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  Speaker 2: That's right, that's right, and I think it can be
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  Speaker 2: quite intimidating. So so many people I work with now
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  Speaker 2: wouldn't describe themselves as financially literate, say, they wouldn't nessarily
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: give themselves that title apart from the fact they know
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  Speaker 2: a lot, but not enough to conclude that they are
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: confident in this area. And I think sometimes when you
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: come to it too late, you well, I guess perhaps
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: it's better to understate what you are instead of overstate.
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  Speaker 2: And I think worse than the person who thinks they
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: know it all. I've got a few of those cuiet like, dude,
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: you dial it back, you do not know what you're
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: even talking about. But that confidence, so they can be
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: a little reckless.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, but I mean at some point, I guess,
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  Speaker 1: and i'd certainly feel us through. The economic side is
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: that you know, to actually make money or get financially secure,
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  Speaker 1: you have to act and you have to put things
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: in place. It's all very well to know a lot
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: of stuff, but you have to choose to enactment.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, I do think that there's a big gap between
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: knowing what to do, especially around money, and doing it.
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: And weirdly we're taught that financial literacy is important, but
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: it actually accounts for less than three percent of what
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: you need to be financially successful. And what I say
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: to my children but also my clients is like financial success,
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: it is not a right. No one deserves that. You
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: have to be deliberate. If you want that title of
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: being successful, you've got to claim it. Yeah, And it's
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: so different than what it once was as to how
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: to be successful, because two generations ago, as long as
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: you weren't bad with money, you were going to be okay.
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, for life, and you take the rights.
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  Speaker 2: That's right, and the mortgage won't be that high relative
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: to your income, so by default you'll be mortgage free
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: by retirement. And you would have been contributing to a
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: pension scheme. And there were no cafes and there were
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: no credit cards, so all these things are just easier, right,
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  Speaker 2: Whereas now, even if you live within your means, which
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: was sort of one of the mantras they lived by,
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  Speaker 2: even if you do that, you were unlikely to own
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: a property, and you're certainly unlikely to retire without a mortgage.
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: And you're doing well, you're not bad.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting one of those generational war things
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  Speaker 1: that comes up a lot in articles and is that
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  Speaker 1: spending the money on the cafes and the avocado toast
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: and all that sort of stuff, But there probably is.
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  Speaker 1: In talking to older you know, older people on this podcast,
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  Speaker 1: you know, you get the sense that there wasn't and
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: I sort of remember it, there wasn't as much to
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: spend your money on. And it's not necessarily a choice.
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: You've got to live in the world you live in,
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: and it does people do sort of have to consume
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  Speaker 1: more to live in the modern world.
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  Speaker 2: Well, yes, I think there's a lot of a lot
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  Speaker 2: of elements to it. I do think the conditions are
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: harder because costs are higher, and we work longer, we've
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: got less time, so we need convenience. You got to
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: pay for convenience, all of those things. Conditions are harder.
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  Speaker 2: But in addition to that, the generation that has to
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: live in it is a little more useless as well
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  Speaker 2: financially speaking. So that's kind of the worst combo because
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  Speaker 2: when it gets harder, you're supposed to get better. Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: and I've got harder conditions and they are just they
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  Speaker 2: just have no clue.
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  Speaker 1: You've got more variables to manage. I guess, yeah, that's right.
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  Speaker 1: Just to keep going on that sort of life journey.
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  Speaker 1: But you know, so at school were you interested in
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  Speaker 1: finance and economics? Did you take the subjects at school?
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  Speaker 1: I did?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I found maths fairly easy. I enjoyed English as well.
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  Speaker 2: Those are probably my favorite subjects. And then I did
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  Speaker 2: the accounting and economics and young Enterprise Scheme and all
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: of those things.
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  Speaker 1: So you're wearing to go but obviously because you left
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: school a year early and men straight to you uniit Ye, yes, right, yes,
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  Speaker 1: I did.
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  Speaker 2: And did my commerce degree and did I got my
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: master's in tax as well, and then ended up going
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: to working at one of the big four accounting firms.
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: And that's sort of where I started. And I didn't
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: even I was just a girl from Havelock, North right.
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: Even the idea of university was quite big, But that
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: just opened up a whole world of opportunities. Yes, connections, yes,
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  Speaker 2: but the mechanics of how commerce really worked was interesting
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: to me.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. And so were your parents involved in that world?
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: I mean, have a lot North is probably not that
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: much fun interes stuff going on with it, you know, just.
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: Middle class income dad, self employed, mum working part time.
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: Just never wanted for anything, but didn't live large But no,
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  Speaker 2: it was I think I was the first person on
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: both sets of the family to go to university.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting and then you know, getting into KPMG right,
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  Speaker 1: And I often ask people there's a lot of people
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: have started in one of those big four you know,
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: go on to cb CEOs or whatever, and always ask
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: because there are some people who stay with it. It
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: can be like a lifelong thing. You know, you can
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: go around the world with work in Singapore and London
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: and New York and all those sort of things. Was
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: there a reason that you didn't You didn't get sort
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: of sucked into the sort of the world and want
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: to stay there because you can live a very nice
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: life working your way through one of those big organizations.
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  Speaker 2: Yes you can, and for some people that is the
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: right path. For me, I'm not, Although I am a
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: qualified charted accountant, I'm not an accountant. I'm aware of
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: risk and I mitigate risk, but I'm not fearful of risk. Yeah,
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: I'm entrepreneurial. I want to push the boundaries, I want
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: to challenge status quo and all of that stuff is
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: not really welcome in those settings for reasons like specific reasons,
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: and so I think I was.
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: It's very structured, doesn't it.
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: I mean instructure, and they think a particular way and
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: they are paid to think a particular way. Society needs
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: them to think a particular way because they are sounding
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: board for so many different things. But you're not going
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: to get creativity. They are needed. But that's not where
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: I was able to fit in. And although I was
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: earning very good money, I still wasn't getting ahead, which
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: was sort of the mirror reflection. And I think that
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: was the first lesson for me that, Okay, well I
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: am financially literate and I'm financially confident and I'm earning
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: good income, so that should be like the three trump
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: cards right there. Yet it's not translating to progress. And
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: I'm not stupid, But why is that?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, so a missing piece of the puzzle, that's right.
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: And so I think earning money doesn't mean that you
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: know how to grow wealth. And I wanted to go
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: on a journey to try and understand that. With me.
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: I guess it's the guinea pick of that journey.
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean we see that with people who win
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: lotto and suddenly four years later they've got no money,
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: and you know, just just getting money isn't in itself.
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: Often No, No, I've got a few lotto clients actually,
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: some who have won it as they were a client,
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: so we had the structures in place, and we've doubled
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: their winnings, which was amazing. Some who came to me
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: after they lost it, right, yeah, not ideal, yeah yeah,
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: and some who were in the process of losing it
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: because we.
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: Read those stories, you know, and you hope that the
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: lotto people put the winners in touch with good financial
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: advice and get them on a path to that. Yeah.
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: I think one of the troubles with money or any
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: form of financial advice is it often is about where
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: to invest your money, and the person giving the advice
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: often has a vested interest in what that investment vehicle is.
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: So as an accountant, I'm like, you're so conflicted in
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: what you're saying, which whether that's right or wrong. That's
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: certainly what I concluded that financial advice comes from product
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: placement in this country, and for a lot of the people,
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: say who win big, whether that's getting an inheritance, a
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: big bonus, or the extreme of lotto, if they don't
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: have the systems and the behaviors in place and the
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: right people around them. Easy come, easy go.
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So from KPMG you went to a mortgage broking
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: type firm, Yes, yep, And from what I've read, it's
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: sort of had an interesting ending. So I won't mention them,
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: but take me through coming up with the idea for
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: the business's enabled me and how that ended up.
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: So obviously, with my background being accounting in law and
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: tax and wanting to understand how you grow wealth, whether
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: that's through managed funds or the property market with leverage,
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: leverage became such an important part of an investment type,
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: so using the bank's money, and I wanted to understand, okay, well,
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: how do you actually get access to this bank's money.
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: Like I've I've got my own property, I've got my
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: own mortgage, But what's actually how come someone can get
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: access to more money than me and I feel like
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: we've got the same position. These were some of the
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: things that I was curious about. So I'm like, okay,
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: well I'm going to get under the hood and I'm
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: going to work at a mortgage brokering firm to try
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: and understand how the banks see people because they've got
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: their own kind of weird calculators they apply. And as
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: part of that, I was talking to one of my
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: colleagues and she said, I would be so good if
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: we help people get out of debt rather than into debt.
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: I'm like, what a great idea, And so we waddled
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: up to our CEO and said and like I was
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: pretty much a graduate, you know, my early twenties, knew
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: nothing but felt I knew it all. And I went
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: to the MD and said, hey, why don't we help
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: people get out of there? This is an idea instead
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: of into debt, and it's a great idea. Draw us
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: up a business plans. We drew up a business plan,
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: took it to him and he said, you're fired, blunt,
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: And I didn't even get it because I'm very logical
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: and I'm definitely not emotional in a high stress situation.
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: That sort of one of my little secret weapons is
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: that I can be calm and cool, but I can't
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: understand people who do really dumb things. And so I'm like,
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: we have given you our business plan, we've told you
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: what we want to do, and we've said we want
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: to do it with you, Like, what world are we
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: going into? Competition with you. But I don't know if
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: it's men, I don't know if it's insecure people. But
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: he was not having a bar of it. And so
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: like I am, I am the definition of a goody
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: good I love to please people. And being fired from
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: a job at like twenty one or twenty two or
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: whatever it was maybe maybe it was early twenties, Yeah,
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: that felt just humiliating.
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's tough. I think anyone losing their job, even
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: with a good redundancy and all that sort of stuff,
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: it's always quite a blow, isn't it.
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: We were marched, so not only was I made where
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: we fired, but we had to have box. It was
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: like very American. And I remember calling my husband said
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: can you come and pick me up? And he came
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: and picked I said what had happened? And he came
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: and picked me up on his motorbike and I'm like,
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: what am I supposed to do with this box? And
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: it was just like failure after failure In any case.
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: One of the benefits of being completely humiliated is you
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: don't really have fear because you have lost everything you
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: held there. And so that's when I thought, Okay, well
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: maybe we should help people get out of there.
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: So it's a leap. You know that that leap to
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: go into business for yourself is quite daunting for people.
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: I guess this was a sort of a push.
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was exactly a push with a gun to
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: your head. And so at that stage I wasn't even
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: sure what I was going to do. I felt I
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: felt all options were kind of taken off the table.
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: And that's when I thought, Okay, well, maybe maybe there
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: is something in this business idea. Because it's easy to
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: have a business idea if someone else is going to
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: bankroll it, which was going to be the idea, But
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: when it's you bank it and you've still got your
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: mortgage and you've got all these other commitments, it's game
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: on at that point, right Like that's that's the big
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: boy table. And so I thought, okay, maybe there is
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: something in it. And that's when I started trying to
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: work out, well, if I was going to pay my
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: debt off faster, let's start with how would I structure
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: my debt to do that. And that's when I started
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: working through like the calculus algebra of how I should
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: structure it. And I think the epiphany of that was
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: who knew that calculus paper at university actually has come
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: in handy who knew, because you know, you do these
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: papers in your life. I'm never going to apply this
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: ever in life. What a waste of time. And so
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: I got far enough to realize I didn't know that
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: much calculus, and I ended up calling the mathematics department
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: of the University of Auckland to ask one of their
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: math students if they would help me work on this
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: formula to pay my debt off faster at the lowest cost.
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: Because I working through the mortgage broker, and I came
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: to realize that you pay three times what you borrow
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: back to the bank, and they the banks would have
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: us focus on interest rate discounts and things. And it's
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: like for me on my mortgage, which was three hundred
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: and fifty thousand, I think, so I was going to
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: pay a million dollars back. The interest rate that I
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: was fighting for was going to save me twelve thousand
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: dollars out of the million dollars. And I'm I think
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: I'm focusing on the wrong thing here, and I think
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: it suits them that I focus on this thing. So anyway,
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: I went to work for a few months with this
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: particular mathematician at the university, and we came up with
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: this formula of how to structure my mortgage to pay
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: it off quickly, at the lowest cost and with the
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: most flexibility, because that became more important than I realized
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: at the time, but just a general awareness that usually
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: whenever you show initiative, you regret it about a day later.
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: And so if you were going to commit more money
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: to your mortgage, which could help you pay it off faster,
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: you probably will need that money back at some point.
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: And you've dug in showing initiative, You've actually made it
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: hard for future you and you haven't even realized it,
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: which became more prevalent as I got on to enable me. However,
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: those three things interest costs, speed of paying off the debt,
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: and flexibility. And I patented that formula and it would
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: save me the size of my mortgage and interest costs.
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: And I'm so three hundred and fifty grand back then,
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: and so I'm okay, I've got it, and then I'm like,
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: hold on a minute. For this formula to work, I
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: need to have money left over because it's about channeling
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: your surplus into the mortgage and I don't have money left.
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: Over, So then you can do budgeting.
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: And yeah, but I can write a budget. I'm an accountant.
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: I can color code a budget. I just wouldn't stick
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: to a budget.
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And then I'm like, and why is that? And
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: that's when I thought hold on. Behavioral economics has more
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: of a role to play here than financial literacy. And
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: that's when I spent time researching and experimenting with behavioral economics.
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: Why people behave a particular way, and based on that,
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: how you should respond? Yeah, because I think changing people
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: like if you if you're programmed to be a spender
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: as I am, it's not that I can't save. I
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: just need a reason to save. So engaging me is
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: different to how you would engage a savor. Yeah, who
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: actually enjoys not spending money? Who knew that that was
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: a thing.
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's interesting, as we were talking about that earlier,
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: you know, just because it's it's similar to sort of
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: you can read about financial articles and the other articles
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: you read about, you know, weight loss and how to
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: change your eating habits, and you can read these things
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: over and over again. But unless you're able to somehow
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: integrate it into your life and actually exactly act on
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: it or make it work, you know, reduce the calories somehow.
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: You know there needs to be practical ways to make
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: it work.
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: I guess, yeah, you need to have the systems. Like
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: if you go back to kind of form three science,
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: when they're teaching you about momentum, right, they would roll
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: and marble across the science desk or something and say,
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: when you introduce friction, it slows the pace of the marble.
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: And I think, well, for anything, but when you're trying
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: to create progress or financial progress, when you introduce friction,
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: it slows things down. And the biggest friction to progress
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: often is your own tendencies around money. And so if
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: we can make that process where the tendencies aren't fighting
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: against what you're trying to achieve, how easy can we
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: make it for you? You're more likely to keep doing it
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: and get that momentum.
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: So I guess a lot of what you're doing with
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: clients is that kind of behavior or economic psychology comes
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: into it. It's understanding your own. Yes, the way each
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: client to each person or reader of your book is
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: you have to understand yourself and you have to understand
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: what motivates you and what actually stops you achieving things,
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: and then integrate formulas into it.
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: That's right, there's almost two components of it. So when
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: it comes to maximizing your soup, that is all behavioral economics.
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: That's to do with your money, beliefs, your tendencies, how
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: you respond like that's sort of got nothing to do
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: with your financial position as such. It's just who you are,
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: what you're not, who you need to hear it from
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: to actually do it. Those that's that components. That's psychology.
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: Creating wealth is science that is calculated steps in a
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: particular way to maximize an output. But if you haven't
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: got the psychology and the behaviors right, you never get
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: to the wealth part. And what I may maybe twenty
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: years ago the surplus wasn't as important as it is now.
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: But and back in the day, you could sort of
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: almost if you bought a property, you were gonna be
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: okay because the conditions were always favorable enough. Even if
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: you had no clue whether you were buying the right
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: property and never had a strategy of how you're going
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: to hold it, you were gonna probably be okay. Whereas
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: now all that has happened is the margin of error
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: to get it wrong is very, very small, and if
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: you don't perform in the acceptable range, you are likely
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: to get yourself burned.
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah yea. And also, I mean, I feel like, as
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: I've got older, and you know, obviously I'm in the
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: industry to some extent, I've learned enough about myself to
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: understand it. But some people will never get it. But
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: some people sort of learn this stuff later in life
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: when it's almost you know that the time for the
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: big gains is almost gone. And so getting people to
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: understand at a younger age, or helping them to understand
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: at a younger age what their drivers and their barriers
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: are is probably pretty key to them, you know, because
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: of course wealth, you know, snowballs over a long period
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: of time if you can get going the right way earlier.
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: I think one of the benefits of being slightly older, though,
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: is that you know your runway is short. You've got
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: one shot to get this right, so you bring your
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: a game, whereas sometimes when you start too early there
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: is no real urgency. There's still a romance around pretty
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: much everything right. It's not until you yet you more good,
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: you have your kids.
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: Okay, this is it.
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: And so I think it is about understanding what your
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: trump cards are and how you play them. But I
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: don't think people are particularly good at determining what their
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: trump cards are. So we think that the trump card
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: is you should just earn more money. That surely, if
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: you earn good money, surely you're going to be financially successful.
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: But all that happens is for most of us, the
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: more you earn, the more relaxed you become around your money,
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: and so it doesn't translate to you being becoming more deliberate.
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: You just have lifestyle creep, So that's not really a
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: trump card. A trump card might be that you are single,
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: so you don't have which normally would be perhaps a
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: financial detriment. But if you don't have a partner that's
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: sucking your money, that might be here at a trump card. Kids.
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: If you don't have kids, that is certainly a trump card,
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: and if your kids aren't talented, that is a trump card.
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: But if you are older, you've got five years until retirement,
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: I would say that's your trump card. Because it's game
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: on the rubbers, hitting the road here, and there is
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: a willingness to do what is needed to get the
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: job done and that mindset shift that only comes from
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: the fact that your runway. You can see the end
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: of your runway. That is a trump cart.
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you've become an author. You've turned some of this
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: into a couple of books, I think, and you've got
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: one out now. I mean, how was that process and
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: how did you find sort of trying to codify it
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: all into an easy read.
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: I guess it was good. It was good because I
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: work with so many clients. I think I have this.
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: I think since I've started Enabled Me, I've been doing
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: it for sixteen years, I've had twenty thousand client meetings.
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: It's a lot of case studies.
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: There's a lot of case studies. I feel like I've
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: seen it all. And with that, you realize that some
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: things are important, some things we are taught are important
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: financially but actually aren't. And some things that you don't
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: even think are important are more prolific in your success
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: than what you would ever know. But I have seen it.
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: I've worked with people who are just starting out at sixteen,
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: that's my youngest client through to eighty six, no money
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: or in debt, through to one hundred million. Most of
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: us don't have anywhere close to that. But this is
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: kind of the extreme. I've had clients that are financially compatible,
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: clients that aren't, some that don't even know how to
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: set goals, some who don't know how to stick to
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: a budget. Like just I feel like I've seen it all,
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: and I've seen behind the curtain and under the hood,
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: and sometimes i feel I'm more of a marriage counselor
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: than a financial advisor, or I'm a cheerleader or whatever
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: it is. But I know, irrespective of what I'm working with,
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: what I need to do to get this person into
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: a better financial position. And it feels great to be
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: able to present that so people can read it for themselves.
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean at sixteen years, have you noticed trends change.
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: I've noticed that, you know, there has been a resurgence
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: of young people getting back into the markets with Chasy's
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: and things and bitcoin, but there's also a sort of
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: a it's very much a lot of young men starting
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: out trading sneakers, bitcoin sharesy's all that kind of stuff,
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: quite quite high risk, kind of glamoury end of it all.
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: I mean, do you see see these trends come through?
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, there are trends, and certainly where there's glamour
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: attached to it, the trend seems to be higher. I
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: think that no matter whoever you are, you always benefit
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: from having a plan that excites you, and trying to
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: unlock what that could be for you is quite important.
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: So I had a client that, to the outside world
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: very successful, earning a couple of one hundred thousand a year,
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: female at the top of her game, and no savings,
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: so it doesn't own a home, actually has short term debt,
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: no savings. On one hand, you're like, how is that
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: even possible? I mean, come on. And some of it
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: to do with the beliefs how she's been taught about money,
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: the role of money in your life when she was
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: a young child, the fact that her parents didn't know
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: how to manage money, the fact that she makes more
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: money than her peers, so she sort of feels guilty
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: about that, so then wants to be generous. So all
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: these reasons which help explain, but don't show you what
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: to do differently, right, And so I said to her,
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: what is your tendency around money? And she says, well,
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: I like to spend I'm a shopper. And how what's
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: your spending style? And she says, I'm fast and I'm loose.
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: I love it. I'm like, we're going to be good friends.
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: And for her, she never thought she could pay off
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: the debt, the short term debt, So the idea of
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: owning a house just seemed improbable. So what is the
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: point of trying?
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: Right? Yeah, and a lot of kiwi young kikiwis probably
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: do feel like that exactly.
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: They genuinely think they're not going to be able to
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: get onto the housing ladder. And they can. They just
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: what their parents. It is unlikely to be the way
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: that they get there. Yeah, and the parents are the
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: ones giving them their advice. Oh gosh, So I think
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: we economically, we can't afford for this next generation to
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: feel like they can't make progress. That's dangerous when you
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: remove hope from a generation, financial hope. And whether it's
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: right or wrong, close to ninety percent of that generation
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: measure financial successes being able to own a property. Yeah
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: and so, and then eighty percent feel they never will.
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, this is not a This is not
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: a healthy coupling for the whole country.
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Look, I've got a few quick fire money talks
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: questions here. One of them is what would be the poorest.
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: You've ever been at university?
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: A poor student?
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: Poor student? I hated it. I was actually talking to
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: my son about that. I said, I was just so
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: eager to university. So I finished it a little bit
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: earlier by working harder, and because I hated being poor?
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: Did you have to take on debt?
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: I took on my final year of my masters, but
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: I managed to work through with a job and working
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: in the holidays to keep dead down. And my parents
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: were at that level where they didn't really earn enough
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: for me to qualify that They earned enough for me
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: not to qualify for anything allowances yet, but not enough
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: to help pay off my fees.
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: So it was basically a lot of hard work. Flip
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: side of that, as we often like to ask, what's
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: the most indulgent purchase you've ever made?
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: I've got a couple quite recently. Actually. One was I
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: bought a glamping tent one night, which was weird. I
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: said to my husband, I said, I feel like this
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: was a drunk purchase. But I wasn't drunk, but I
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: felt the need to have a clamping tent.
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: No, well, that's why you want a glamping tea.
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: I think I was channeling Swiss family.
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: Robins, So what is a means? They're all quite big now, but.
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, this is like three bedroom is it? You charge
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: it out at three hundred four.
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: Hundred dollars in with you to the wilderness, that's right.
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: So that's a bit weird. And then another one. I've
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: just bought tickets to a concert in England.
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: Oh cool, Well that's kind of a holiday and concert.
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: But who are you going to see Taylor? Oh you're
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: going to see Taylor and Wimberley. Wow, that's amazing. That's cool.
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: Well that's a That's a life memory though, isn't it.
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: So when it comes to spending on I mean when
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: people spend on experiences, it's often hard to fault it
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: because it is what it is. You've got a limited
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: time to enjoy life, and yeah, off we go. Yeah,
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: yeah absolutely. We were talking about Loto earlier and Lotto
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: winners do quite like to ask, you know, do you
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: still buy Loto tickets? Do you still imagine winning lottery Loto?
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: Did you ever?
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: I don't think I did. I remember taking an oath
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: to myself saying if I ever won Lotto, I would
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: give it away because I'll never let my success be
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: a chance. And because I said that, I guess I
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: could retract the oath. But I've never bought a lotto
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: since somebody, Oh, there's no point, I'm never going to
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: keep it anyway, So no, I don't buy lotto.
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: And look, one final question. It is kind of a
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: big fixing New Zealand kind of question, and it's really,
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: if we can make you Prime Minister for the day
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: or you know, supreme Ruler of New Zealand. Is there
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: a policy or something that you would do, that you
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: would want to bring in that you think would change
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: the game and help New Zealanders New Zealand be wealthier
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: in a happier place.
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: Yes. Many. In fact, I think that the strength of
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: the economy is the strength of our middle class, and
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: the closer or the more compact that middle class is,
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: the better. And all we're seen at the moment is
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: that people are becoming poorer and that size of the
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: middle class, like the lower end of the middle class
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: is really just working poor rather than those who could
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: be rich. Very dangerous. So we've got to help those
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: people become successful. I do think they need to intrud
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: use a stamp duty or a capital gains tax and
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: have that actually the proceeds of that directed to deliver
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: particular financial outcomes. So it's going back and not just
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: getting lost in the middle.
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: So that's about incentivizing some good investment for New Zealand.
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: That's right. And so even if you introduce a stamp
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: duty a form of capital gains tax on property, say
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: and I don't I personally don't think that the family
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: home should be removed from these things. But let's say
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: it was only two percent of the profit. Half of
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: that goes to the local government so they can actually
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: get their infrastructure in place, and half goes to the
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: federal right and use that money to grow, Like, why
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: don't we decide that we want to be the leading
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: medical something for the world, and why don't we build
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: more hospitals and do things that actually are going to
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: help us become more productive. But I probably need more
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: than a day.
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: It sounds well thought through. You have never insteaded going
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: to politics. No hesitation, Okay, no, look, that's great hand
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: I'm going to leave it there, but fantastic to chat
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: to you. Thanks for being O Money Talks.
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to this episode of Money Talks. If
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: you want to get in touch, drop me a line
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: Liam dot Dan at zme dot co dot nz and
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: you can read more from me at inzidherold dot co
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: dot nz. Thanks to my producer Ethan Sills and sound
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: engineer Liann McDonald. Follow Money Talks on iHeartRadio or wherever
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: you get your podcasts, with new episodes available every Thursday