Latest / The Delicious Culture with Jon Francois / Private vs. Public Opinion Is Delicious w/ Kiko Zang: Chomp

Transcript

Private vs. Public Opinion Is Delicious w/ Kiko Zang: Chomp · The Delicious Culture with Jon Francois

• 0:00
  Okay, so you're running a trade business. You
• 0:01
  know that the phone always rings at the worst
• 0:04
  possible time. Why? The solution, you are office
• 0:08
  staff. Your office staff is an AI receptionist
• 0:12
  that answers for you day and night. It will talk
• 0:15
  to your customers, knows your services and prices.
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  It'll check your calendar and even books estimates
• 0:21
  near jobs you already have that day. The details
• 0:25
  will... I'll be texted to you. You don't have
• 0:28
  to worry about it. Your office staff takes care
• 0:29
  of the texts, the emails. It's only 99 bucks
• 0:33
  a month. Even better. If you try it out, your
• 0:35
  first month is only $10. Go to you are office
• 0:39
  staff .com. Once again, that is you are office
• 0:43
  staff .com. Feeling alienated, feeling foreign
• 0:49
  or feeling different is also a universal experience.
• 0:53
  For a while, I thought I was the only one that
• 0:55
  felt this way because I looked different because
• 0:57
  I was in a different country, but I saw people
• 0:59
  misunderstanding each other, people feeling devised,
• 1:02
  feeling left out in their own home country, in
• 1:04
  their own socioeconomic background, in their
• 1:06
  own place of work, speaking the same exact language.
• 1:09
  I saw this with everyone at some part of their
• 1:11
  life. I felt like it was a result of the environment.
• 1:16
  that led me to not saying what I really think,
• 1:19
  not being who I really am. But I think it is
• 1:22
  a result of a much larger cultural and societal,
• 1:25
  I guess, pressure for us to be perceived in a
• 1:29
  way that may be different from who we really
• 1:31
  are. Impromptu trip that I took to LA. So I'm
• 1:54
  in LA right now. I'm like the laptop is on top
• 1:56
  of my suitcase I'm sitting on my bed at the Airbnb.
• 1:59
  But normally I am on the East Coast I like the
• 2:02
  clean wooden background for those of you watching
• 2:04
  on Spotify and YouTube So what what brings you
• 2:08
  out to LA if I may ask I actually went to school
• 2:10
  here I went to USC. So I don't know how familiar
• 2:13
  you are with LA. It's like on the on the downtown
• 2:15
  side of LA And I have a lot of friends I have
• 2:19
  a lot of friends here and I came here for two
• 2:22
  reasons. One is one of my mentors that's overseas
• 2:26
  actually like was visiting her family. So I came
• 2:28
  to say hi to her and catch up with her. And another
• 2:31
  reason is yesterday I went filming for like some
• 2:35
  content for the upcoming one of the upcoming
• 2:37
  announcements for the product that I'm building.
• 2:40
  So those two are the main reasons, but very serendipitously.
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  A lot of my friends from all over the place are
• 2:48
  currently in LA. So like two days ago, I met
• 2:51
  up with my friends that I knew from Shanghai,
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  and then I live within Singapore. So I hung out
• 2:58
  with them. And then tonight, I'm going to see
• 3:01
  a friend of mine that I actually work with at
• 3:03
  the first startup that I was a part of for like
• 3:06
  three years, really closely between like 21 to
• 3:09
  23. So it happens that everyone is in LA. So
• 3:11
  it's been a more like friend and like nourishing
• 3:15
  trip than I thought it would be. I love that.
• 3:18
  And where do you live full time? I live in a
• 3:21
  suburb outside of Philly right now. So I had
• 3:24
  been over a little bit of short history about
• 3:27
  kind of where where I've been. So it's like,
• 3:29
  at least that chronologically is like a little
• 3:31
  bit less confusing after I lay it out. I'm Chinese.
• 3:34
  I grew up in New Zealand. So 12 to 17, I was
• 3:37
  in New Zealand. Pre -12, I was in China. And
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  then from 17, I moved to the US and I was in
• 3:43
  LA between age 17 to 24. And then I went back
• 3:47
  to Asia, mostly in Shanghai, but also in Singapore,
• 3:50
  Southeast Asia for about 10, like eight, nine
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  -ish years, and then lived in Berlin for a year.
• 3:58
  And then end of 2024, early 25, we moved back
• 4:02
  to the US. And it was my first time living on
• 4:05
  the East Coast. And that's when we moved to Philly,
• 4:09
  me and my husband. And then last October, someone
• 4:12
  robbed our home in Philly and that prompted us
• 4:15
  to move out into the suburbs. So those are the
• 4:18
  places. Understandable. I spent three... college
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  semesters in Philly back in the day at the University
• 4:24
  of the Arts, which no longer exists. But I was
• 4:28
  in a safer part. I was in the center city area.
• 4:32
  So I can only imagine what that robbing experience
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  must have been like. And bouncing off of that
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  to kind of clarify what this app is that you've
• 4:42
  created called Chomp. I remember when we messaged
• 4:45
  each other on the PodMatch website, you talked
• 4:49
  about a very unfortunate an incident that you
• 4:52
  experienced as a teenager in New Zealand that
• 4:54
  led you to create the app, Sean. Can you tell
• 4:56
  us that story? I do think it's a lot of different
• 4:59
  moments. It's not just like, you know, one moment
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  in particular. There are a few things, so like.
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  I think for people that have grown up all over
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  the place, you might resonate, whoever that's
• 5:11
  listening, that you go into a new place and you're
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  mostly seen as an outsider or for worst cases,
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  maybe an intruder in some way. spent about six
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  years in New Zealand. And for most of that, uh,
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  I lived in a really small town called Timaru
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  and there's 50 ,000 people. There are maybe like
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  a total of five Asians and they're mostly like
• 5:33
  restaurant owners or something like that. So
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  I was the only Asian looking person staying in
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  the boarding house that I was in for a while.
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  And you would walk on the street. I would walk
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  on the street and a lot of people will pop out
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  of their car windows and say, like, go back to
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  your country. So it's more a. Do they mean it?
• 5:52
  I'm not even sure if they know what they're saying.
• 5:54
  Right. I think it's just like what they have
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  heard maybe from other parts of the culture that
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  made a lot of people who are ignorant, unintentionally
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  racist. Um, yeah. Usually the, in my experience,
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  the, the mean prejudices that people have based
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  on your race, gender, whatever, it's based on
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  some sort of stereotypical pop cultural thing.
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  All I say is if you really want to like get to
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  know and respect someone who is completely different
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  from you, like actually live in a neighborhood
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  with them, talk with them, have a conversation
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  with them, you'll find that there's more in common
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  than you guys imagine. Yeah, 100%. And for the
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  people that lived in Timaru, they didn't have
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  that opportunity. And at the time, there was
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  not a lot of Asians in cinema. You know, there's
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  like Lucy Liu and then crazy rich Asians has
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  not come out yet, which I would think is like
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  a pivotal moment for like people understanding
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  Asians in the media. But anyways, backtrack.
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  You could probably count Jackie Chan in there,
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  right? You're growing up in like the 90s and
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  2000s and such. I don't know, because I actually
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  think like the Bruce Lee's, the Jackie Chan's,
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  they are accidentally feeding into a stereotype.
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  Like sort of like the Kung Fu or karate chopping.
• 7:11
  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So like even for Lucy Liu,
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  right? She was playing Charlie's angel, but she
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  had like a, she was doing Kung Fu, you know,
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  and like she had like certain stereotypical way
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  about her. That's not actually her as a person,
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  right? She is a a Chinese American person who
• 7:28
  grew up in New York, but none of that flair is
• 7:31
  incorporated into her character in Charlie's
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  Angels. So I think there was maybe not like a
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  one pivotal movie, but there was a gradual shift
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  between Asian people playing their stereotypes
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  into playing just a normal human. And to me,
• 7:47
  that identifying shift happened with Crazy Rich
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  Asians with Connie's character. Like she's a
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  normal person who, you know, is a first -generation
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  Chinese immigrant in America and she's just playing,
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  you know, a person. She's not playing a stereotype,
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  someone that works in a Chinese restaurant, someone
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  that knows kung fu, someone that, you know, you
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  know, um, anyways, so none of that happened yet
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  when I was 12 years old. So people had a lot
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  of, they asked me if, you know, I... Only had
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  bikes or only had bicycles and not cars if we
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  all wore, you know hats like their their understanding
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  of asia was like very limited. Um, so I think
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  that ignorance created some Some like unintentional
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  hate. So I think the story that we talked about
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  was uh, someone trying to knife me Uh, so this
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  was like outside of a a club. I was 17 not supposed
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  to be there, but we were all outside I think
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  hanging out and I think he might have been like
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  a junior gang member of like a local gang and
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  then he was kicked out of the club and he was
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  angry and I uh I heard it was all very fast so
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  like I realized it was happening after my friend
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  blocked the knife with his arm and then his arm
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  was bleeding and then the person was like fucking
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  Asian etc and then kind of like ran away after
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  he realized that my friend's arm was bleeding.
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  So his motive was just hate. Did you get the
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  sense that he was drunk or high or on something?
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  It was too fast for me to really know. And I
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  was very lucky, right? Nothing happened to me.
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  My friend kind of like instinctually blocked
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  it with his arm because he was taller than me.
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  And I like to say that Like that's just one of
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  the things that you you internalize into a part
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  of this experience, right? It's not like one
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  moment or Yeah, I can't count like a specific
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  moment like this But there are many other things
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  that makes you feel like your existence is somehow
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  unwelcomed or like you feeling alienated You
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  don't belong there. Yeah, so that experience
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  I think made me really good at camouflaging myself,
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  even though there are parts of how I am, how
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  I look like that's impossible to camouflage.
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  I can never not look like an Asian person. What
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  do you mean by camouflage, if you don't mind
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  breaking that down? Yeah, I think passing maybe
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  is like an easier way to explain it. So like
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  if I look different, how can I behave in a way
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  that makes myself feel more immersed into an
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  environment that perceives me as foreign? So,
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  you know, how do I uh, kind of date boys like
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  others, right? How do I get piercings like the
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  popular girls in New Zealand? How do I behave
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  in a way that, um, you know, like, uh, like the
• 10:47
  people who get bullied end up, you know, becoming
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  a bully so they don't feel like left out or they
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  don't feel like, um, yeah. So there's been like
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  a series of attempts and many of them very successful
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  of fitting in. Um, but I think in that experience,
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  I felt maybe two distinct feelings, because I
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  didn't do this just in New Zealand. When I came
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  to the U .S. and I came to L .A., I had a New
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  Zealand accent and I looked Chinese. And that
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  was very confusing for all of my, you know, dorm
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  mates. And so then I very quickly changed my
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  accent into the one that you're hearing now.
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  And then after college, after working, I went
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  back to China and I was a Chinese looking person.
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  that didn't speak very good Chinese. So that
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  was confusing in Shanghai for people to be like,
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  you know, coming up to me, talking to me about
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  something. And I'm very quickly asking if I grew
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  up somewhere else because they could detect the
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  way my sentences, you know, sounded foreign.
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  I could not pick up on like cultural references.
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  So it's an experience of feeling alienated in
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  like very many, many different settings that
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  made me very, I think, in tune to being different
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  and like the what it takes to feel belonging
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  or what it takes to fame belonging in a way.
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  But what I also saw from a lot of other people
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  is that feeling alienated, feeling foreign or
• 12:08
  feeling different is also a universal experience.
• 12:12
  For a while, I thought I was the only one that
• 12:14
  felt this way because I looked different because
• 12:16
  I was in a different country. But I saw people
• 12:18
  misunderstanding each other, people feeling devised,
• 12:21
  feeling left out in their own home country. in
• 12:25
  their own socioeconomic background, in their
• 12:27
  own place of work, speaking the same exact language.
• 12:30
  I saw this with everyone at some part of their
• 12:32
  life. And I felt like I was being, like I felt
• 12:38
  like it was a result of the environment that
• 12:41
  led me to not saying what I really think, not
• 12:44
  being who I really am. But I think it is a result
• 12:47
  of a much larger cultural and societal, I guess,
• 12:50
  pressure for us to be perceived in a way that
• 12:54
  may be different from who we really are. And
• 12:58
  the product is something that I'm building to
• 13:02
  try to address that. Obviously, it is a huge
• 13:04
  cultural... You're talking about the CHOMP app
• 13:06
  is what you mean by that. Yeah. Yeah. So CHOMP
• 13:09
  is the product and what CHOMP is trying to do
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  is to get you to see what people really think
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  when no one is watching. And that's the simple...
• 13:16
  Yeah, I mean, the first question that comes in
• 13:18
  my mind is how is that possible? Because like,
• 13:21
  you say that, like, you know, trying to figure
• 13:24
  out what people are thinking. And that sounds
• 13:27
  like an impossible sort of hypnotherapy thing.
• 13:32
  Can you break down specifically how you make
• 13:34
  this app work for people? Yeah, I think this
• 13:37
  is one attempt at doing it, and this is one methodology.
• 13:40
  It is not hypnotherapy, right? People can be
• 13:43
  playing this app when they're like walking around.
• 13:45
  They're not going to like drop into deep sleep.
• 13:48
  A trance. Or a trance. Maybe I should think about
• 13:53
  EDM festivals as a go to market. But the product
• 13:56
  is very, very simple. So like, for example, This
• 14:01
  could be a really easy question. Right now, there's
• 14:03
  a lot of cultural discussion around the Clancy
• 14:06
  case, for example. The Clancy case. What's the
• 14:09
  Clancy case? I think it's Clancy. You know, Patrick
• 14:12
  and Leslie, the wife had postpartum and then
• 14:17
  she ended up uh hurting her children and then
• 14:21
  her husband is uh soon i don't know if you've
• 14:23
  seen that one i think i've heard of this uh but
• 14:26
  it's been a while since i've heard about the
• 14:28
  story so so thank you for clarifying that yeah
• 14:30
  yeah there's there's that i mean there's also
• 14:32
  a lot of other uh Just whatever that's happening
• 14:35
  today that is in a part of cultural discourse.
• 14:39
  So for example, this case, you know, there's
• 14:41
  a lot of true crime stuff. There's also like,
• 14:43
  you know, the Blake Lively and Justin, you know,
• 14:47
  suing each other. Like who was in there? Yeah,
• 14:49
  yeah. Who wasn't around? Who wasn't around? Like
• 14:50
  this type of stuff. I think, yeah. So like with
• 14:53
  this type of stuff, we watch cultural discourse
• 14:56
  take place. We watch people with really strong
• 14:59
  opinions saying their piece. And some of us get
• 15:02
  into this lore. and we're so curious to find
• 15:04
  out what people are really thinking. But every
• 15:07
  media outlet we go to, there's going to be a
• 15:10
  pretty biased take, either based on the nature
• 15:12
  of that media or like the loudest person that
• 15:14
  is speaking on that media. But there isn't really
• 15:17
  like an aggregate way for us to see what people
• 15:19
  are really thinking as a collective. So Chomp,
• 15:23
  so say we ask the question, like, who is, who
• 15:27
  do you side with, Blake or Justin? And that is
• 15:31
  just the question that we put out on Chomp. And
• 15:33
  every person who's on the receiving end is being
• 15:35
  given two responses. The first response is what
• 15:38
  they themselves think. The second response is
• 15:41
  what they predict other people who are answering
• 15:43
  my think. So I could say, I side with Justin,
• 15:46
  but I think only 30 % of the people will agree
• 15:49
  with me. And that's my answer. And everyone is
• 15:51
  giving the same two -part answer. And what we
• 15:54
  end up with is this mapping of the difference
• 15:58
  between perception and reality. So there is what
• 16:00
  people are saying when no one else is watching.
• 16:03
  And then there's what people predict others might
• 16:05
  say. And then we see that difference. And what
• 16:09
  this app does is first, posing those two questions
• 16:11
  to creating an anonymous environment to remove
• 16:15
  the cost of being honest and sharing what you
• 16:17
  think. And then three, being able to surface
• 16:21
  like a disparity or distance or maybe overlap
• 16:24
  between private and public opinions, pretty much.
• 16:28
  So the perception of reality is private public
• 16:30
  opinions, and there is no cause for you to be
• 16:33
  honest. And really, the only person that you're
• 16:36
  lying to is yourself if you're dishonest in your
• 16:38
  private environment. And you can only see what
• 16:41
  everyone else is saying after you give your own
• 16:43
  answer. So that's a very simple way for us to
• 16:46
  be constructing a map that maps out perception
• 16:50
  of reality on aggregate. The Delicious Culture
• 16:55
  with Jon François proudly hosted by RSS. Why
• 16:59
  not join them? If you are starting a new podcast
• 17:01
  and especially if you are like me, you were with
• 17:04
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• 17:06
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  free and not making any money. And I want to
• 17:12
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  very easily. RSS only requires 10 downloads for
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  you to start monetizing. How about that? A great
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  way to start your podcasting career. Start today
• 17:24
  with the link in my show notes. What's going
• 17:30
  through my head is trying to figure out the difference
• 17:32
  between the chop app and say going on. a comment
• 17:37
  thread on Reddit. And I don't know, I'm trying
• 17:42
  to think of something in the news. Oh, Hayden
• 17:44
  Penetriere, I think is the actress's name. Penetriere,
• 17:47
  yeah, yeah, yeah. She just passed. Yeah, unfortunately,
• 17:50
  who passed away. And I think as of this recording
• 17:54
  on August 19th, we don't know exactly what the
• 17:58
  cause of death is, but we do know that... We
• 18:00
  know her boyfriend is in the room. Her boyfriend
• 18:02
  was in the room when this happened. When he died?
• 18:05
  When she passed, her boyfriend was in the room.
• 18:07
  Oh, I'm sorry, when she passed. Interesting,
• 18:09
  because I think it was her father that made the
• 18:11
  social media announcement. So you would think
• 18:12
  that the boyfriend would make the social media
• 18:14
  announcement. But anyway, so we do know that
• 18:18
  she struggled with postpartum depression, addiction,
• 18:22
  the pressures of child stardom, all that stuff.
• 18:26
  And, you know, internet comment threats could
• 18:29
  but be speculative like you wouldn't believe.
• 18:32
  Like, oh, I think it was the postpartum. I think
• 18:33
  it was the addiction. I think it was this. I
• 18:35
  think it was that. So what is the difference
• 18:37
  between what the CHOMP app offers and someone
• 18:40
  going on the internet and saying, eh, actually,
• 18:42
  I think it's going to be this reason why Hayden
• 18:45
  died. And I think a majority of you are going
• 18:47
  to agree with me. Does that make sense? Yeah.
• 18:49
  The only difference, well, the main difference
• 18:51
  is between looking at individual opinions and
• 18:56
  letting that inform your judgment. and looking
• 18:58
  at a spread, so looking at the aggregate information
• 19:01
  from everyone's input. That's the main difference.
• 19:04
  Because when you're looking at a comment thread,
• 19:07
  you're making individual judgments, right? So
• 19:09
  you are computing this with your own brain. You're
• 19:12
  looking at comment one, you're looking at comment
• 19:14
  two, you're looking at comment three, and you're
• 19:15
  making a judgment based on how convincing that
• 19:18
  argument is. It's really that you have no understanding
• 19:22
  of this person's background, where they came
• 19:24
  from, where their idea came from. And you're
• 19:27
  making a judgment plainly on the language, the
• 19:29
  unstructured text. Trump is just taking a different
• 19:33
  approach. So there will be ways for you to slice
• 19:37
  based on demographic information. For example,
• 19:39
  you will be able to, to an extent, understand
• 19:41
  this user's past history of answers. For example,
• 19:44
  you'll be able to see if this user is a millennial
• 19:47
  or Gen Z. All of these will be not at the cost
• 19:50
  of the user's identity. So that you will not
• 19:52
  be able to see like John answer this or Kiko
• 19:54
  answer this. But you can get a slice of like,
• 19:57
  you know, 20 % of the people who are Gen Z answer
• 19:59
  this in this way. So it's more giving you a more
• 20:04
  aggregate view of what the world thinks as opposed
• 20:08
  to what an individual is thinking at that moment
• 20:10
  in time. Whereas an internet comment thread,
• 20:12
  it's just like, oh, I just see this random account
• 20:15
  posting this opinion. I don't know anything about
• 20:17
  them other than that comment that they're posting
• 20:19
  at that moment about Hayden's death and what
• 20:21
  caused it. But the CHOP app is giving me a more
• 20:27
  specified, I mean, not only giving me that person's
• 20:30
  opinion, but giving me a specified breakdown,
• 20:32
  like what generation they come from, what age
• 20:35
  group they're in, maybe their gender, racial
• 20:37
  identity, and maybe how that contributes to the
• 20:39
  opinion. No? No, it's more like an aggregate.
• 20:43
  So it's the difference between like, it's the
• 20:47
  difference between me buying or subscribing to
• 20:50
  three to five different newspapers and then going
• 20:53
  on 10 different Instagrams to be like, this is
• 20:56
  what people are saying about Hayden's death versus
• 21:00
  seeing one statistic output that's saying 90
• 21:04
  % of the population suspect that the cost of
• 21:08
  death is, I don't know. uh, PDS, uh, postpartum
• 21:12
  depression or something like that. But, um, when
• 21:16
  you ask them what they think everyone else is
• 21:18
  thinking, they suspect it might be 50 % drug
• 21:22
  -related. So like the difference between private
• 21:25
  and public opinion, it is not surface in the
• 21:28
  comment thread because whenever you're saying
• 21:31
  something, people are seeing the individual that's
• 21:33
  posting. It is a, well, I think you could argue
• 21:36
  that If the person's account is anonymous, there
• 21:41
  is no cost to answering it. So I think you can
• 21:44
  argue that. So the main difference will be the
• 21:46
  gamified experience because you're getting dropped
• 21:49
  questions every single day and the fact that
• 21:52
  you are getting a more aggregate understanding
• 21:55
  instead of going into individual sources. Define
• 21:58
  the word aggregate because that is a key word
• 22:00
  that I don't know the meaning of so maybe like
• 22:02
  Define it to me because I'm completely dumb when
• 22:05
  it comes to like this This education that you're
• 22:09
  that you're that you're it's not really an education
• 22:11
  is you can just think of it as a As an app that
• 22:13
  people are playing Aggregate just means a hundred
• 22:17
  people two hundred people a thousand people ten
• 22:20
  thousand people. Yeah, so This app, I think,
• 22:24
  initially starts as more of an entertainment
• 22:26
  product, where people who either are afraid of
• 22:30
  saying what they think are sharing that on Chomp,
• 22:32
  or they're interested in what a consolidated
• 22:37
  version of what people are thinking can exist
• 22:40
  about a certain public discourse or an opinion.
• 22:43
  So this can also be if someone tells you they
• 22:45
  love you within the first month of dating, is
• 22:47
  that a green flag or a red flag? It doesn't have
• 22:49
  to be a public discourse in a certain way. This
• 22:52
  might be something that you have an opinion on,
• 22:55
  but don't want to say out loud. This might be
• 22:57
  something that you are wondering if others feel
• 23:01
  the same way, but you are embarrassed or not
• 23:04
  sure about, like, asking your closest friends
• 23:06
  or your family about. So these are the questions
• 23:09
  that you put out there, either you're asking
• 23:10
  or you're seeing it dropping on Chomp. Yeah,
• 23:13
  am I making sense or not really? I... do better
• 23:17
  when, I mean, I'm a learn by doing kind of person.
• 23:21
  Is the CHOP app actively happening right now
• 23:23
  or is it still in development? So we had a version
• 23:26
  that was live before and we had 50 ,000 users
• 23:29
  and 2 million answers from them. Wow. But I actually
• 23:31
  decided to shut that down and move to a new demographic.
• 23:35
  So the new version is being developed right now.
• 23:37
  I can send you a test flight version after this.
• 23:40
  So App Store is kind of slow right now because
• 23:43
  of the sheer amount of vibe coded apps that are
• 23:46
  being submitted for review. So we are in line
• 23:50
  and like waiting for review as we speak. Why
• 23:52
  did you change the demographic? Because we learned,
• 23:55
  we learned a lot from the first version. The
• 23:58
  first version of the product had more of a stronger
• 24:00
  prediction element. So like the game mechanic
• 24:03
  is similar. But we played up on this ability
• 24:06
  to predict what other people are thinking. And
• 24:09
  sometimes we will match the prediction with like
• 24:11
  a real life event that's happening. And this
• 24:14
  is preceding, we actually started building this
• 24:16
  version before the first Trump election. And
• 24:19
  we were able to see that there is a huge difference
• 24:22
  between public and private opinion on who people
• 24:25
  all over the world think is going to win. Is
• 24:28
  it Biden or Trump? So we saw that people privately,
• 24:32
  more of them thought Trump is going to win, but
• 24:34
  they thought others would pick Biden, like in
• 24:37
  general. So that kind of like that public and
• 24:41
  private opinion difference is what a traditional
• 24:44
  polling wasn't able to pick up on. It's what
• 24:46
  kind of made that first round of election like
• 24:49
  a surprising or maybe confusing win. But when
• 24:53
  we asked the private and public opinion gap,
• 24:55
  it was quite obvious that there were Trump supporters
• 24:58
  early on, right? This is like 24. There were
• 25:01
  Trump supporters who did not want to articulate
• 25:04
  that they were Trump supporters or they secretly
• 25:06
  thought everyone else is voting for Biden and
• 25:08
  therefore they did not articulate this. And that
• 25:10
  kind of like caused the voting to just spin a
• 25:14
  different direction, but it was harder to tell
• 25:16
  in the beginning. But we have a algorithm under
• 25:19
  the hood that helps us use these two differences,
• 25:23
  like the perception and reality to find a better
• 25:28
  wisdom of the crowd. So we take what people think
• 25:31
  and what they think others think and use that
• 25:34
  to calculate what is the most realistic portrayal
• 25:37
  of what's happening in the world today. So that
• 25:41
  algorithm didn't change, but we previously were
• 25:44
  asking more questions about politics or like
• 25:47
  it was a more male -dominated audience. There
• 25:50
  were a few things that made me decide to change
• 25:53
  course. The first is if we went down the more
• 25:57
  prediction route, it was very closely moving
• 26:01
  into gambling, prediction market, sports betting
• 26:05
  realm. And that wasn't really a realm that I
• 26:09
  wanted to play in. That's probably one of the
• 26:11
  main reasons. And also as a startup builder,
• 26:14
  there's a lot of incumbents in that area. As
• 26:16
  you can probably see, there's a lot of ads about
• 26:19
  Caoshi. lately, for example, there's people with
• 26:22
  much more capital, with much more obsession about
• 26:27
  gambling and about betting than I do. So why,
• 26:32
  you know, why play in that market? And the second
• 26:34
  reason... Where you worried you might be feeding
• 26:36
  or enabling what, you know, for a lot of people
• 26:39
  could be an addiction, the gambling and... Yeah,
• 26:44
  I think that's a part of it. Another one is a
• 26:47
  lot of product like this, they actually claim
• 26:49
  to be able to surface better information. So
• 26:51
  like they claim that when there is money online,
• 26:55
  when there's a stake, when there's like a stick
• 26:57
  in the ground, people are more likely to say
• 27:00
  what they really think. And wanting to see people's
• 27:04
  unfiltered honest, realistic opinion is why I
• 27:07
  wanted to build this. But seeing like when we
• 27:09
  were testing out the algorithm before, What I
• 27:12
  saw was more attempts to manipulate the outcome
• 27:15
  in order to make money and not really an ability
• 27:19
  to detect whether they're being honest or not.
• 27:23
  Interesting. So I didn't agree with the claim
• 27:26
  that some of these other products were making.
• 27:32
  And I think as long as there is a strong level
• 27:36
  of like uncertain payoff or people thinking that
• 27:39
  their information and knowledge can drive certain
• 27:42
  pay out differences, it's not going to be very
• 27:46
  easy to tell if they're being honest or if they're
• 27:49
  saying what they mean versus if they're giving
• 27:52
  certain answers to try to game the algorithm
• 27:54
  to try to get a certain, a higher amount of outcome
• 27:58
  payoff. So that was, it's a part of like moral
• 28:01
  ethical reasons, but not a part of it is like
• 28:03
  the pursuit is for people to say what they really
• 28:07
  think, but putting money on it. gave them a different
• 28:11
  reason to not say what they really think. Does
• 28:13
  that make sense? Yeah, yeah. I definitely want
• 28:17
  you to send me a test app version of this and
• 28:20
  I would love to try it and I would love, if possible,
• 28:25
  we got to like schedule another recording just
• 28:27
  so we could like try it in real time and see
• 28:30
  what it does. Yeah, you can actually. Yeah, if
• 28:33
  you want, I've listened to a few of these episodes,
• 28:37
  but I don't know how often you like to do like
• 28:39
  audience engagement. So if you like, we can actually
• 28:42
  have you design a pack of questions and then
• 28:44
  put it out there and you can have your audience
• 28:46
  answer and see what they think. That could be
• 28:49
  cool. Yeah. Yeah. So let's definitely stay in
• 28:51
  touch and let's see if we could have a very audience
• 28:55
  engaging, you know, doing in the moment. sort
• 29:00
  of demonstration of how the Chop app works. So
• 29:03
  I think that will be, I think that will be fantastic.
• 29:09
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• 29:11
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• 29:31
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• 29:35
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• 29:50
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• 29:57
  So on The Delicious Culture, I ask all my guests
• 30:00
  three delicious questions, and I would love to
• 30:03
  do the same with you. First off, what is a delicious
• 30:06
  meal that you've had lately? So I went to the
• 30:13
  West Hollywood Soul House recently. And there
• 30:16
  is this like restaurant that is like on the roof
• 30:21
  and it's open door, like open air. It feels like
• 30:25
  a garden in the middle of the Hollywood and you
• 30:29
  can order, it's like Italian food, but you can
• 30:33
  also see like a view of LA while you're eating.
• 30:38
  So I think the more delicious part is the environment.
• 30:41
  The food is also quite good. So I want to know
• 30:45
  what the food is. What's the food? The food was
• 30:48
  um, there's a restaurant called moza that was
• 30:50
  like pretty big in LA over like a decade ago
• 30:52
  and the chef had a collaborative menu as Italian
• 30:56
  food. I had like speak meatball meatball spaghetti
• 31:00
  meatballs pretty much and I think like spaghetti
• 31:05
  bolognese beauty meatball is like the one thing
• 31:09
  I order if I want to know if an Italian restaurant
• 31:12
  is good. Because if they can't make something
• 31:14
  as simple as spaghetti and meatballs good, then
• 31:17
  the Italian restaurant is not good. Yeah, I think
• 31:19
  that's fair. I think that's fair. Yeah, because
• 31:21
  like the pasta, the red sauce, you know, the
• 31:25
  ability to cook mincemeat, these are all basic
• 31:28
  things that an Italian restaurant should do well.
• 31:30
  Oh, yeah, I agree. I agree. It is a filling,
• 31:33
  delicious. pretty simple dish to make. I can
• 31:36
  even make it if I have the energy, which is never
• 31:39
  because my wife is usually the cook. So I put
• 31:42
  it all on her and she doesn't like spaghetti
• 31:45
  and leftover form. So I cannot tell you the last
• 31:48
  time I had spaghetti and meatballs. I'm actually
• 31:49
  crying on the inside because I love it so much.
• 31:52
  Um, but you're saying more so the, the vibe of
• 31:55
  like being in LA, uh, I think in the evening,
• 31:58
  uh, with your Italian restaurant dinner outside,
• 32:01
  like it was what this was pretty recently when,
• 32:03
  when it was like beautiful outside. It was beautiful.
• 32:05
  I was out Saturday coming back to LA feels like
• 32:08
  coming home and I was actually having a meal
• 32:10
  alone. Um, I had the rare opportunity to eat
• 32:15
  on my own. and to read my book and to, yeah,
• 32:20
  I think just to be in a comfortable environment
• 32:21
  where I didn't feel like I had to be somewhere.
• 32:24
  I could stay as late as I wanted. I don't know
• 32:28
  if you've had the feeling, but like I feel very
• 32:29
  comfortable amongst a room of strangers if they
• 32:32
  don't know me. It feels like I can be like completely
• 32:34
  myself. So I think it's that like the vibe of
• 32:38
  it. And then also like dawned on me when I was
• 32:41
  eating that I had Like when I first came to LA,
• 32:45
  it was exactly half of my life ago. So I was
• 32:47
  17 when I came to LA and now I'm 34. Oh, I'm
• 32:51
  34 too. Oh, okay. Yeah, I'm turning, I'm turning
• 32:55
  35 in October. Hey, I'm turning 35 in November.
• 32:59
  So are you... Oh, nice. Are you a sectarian as
• 33:02
  well? I'm a Libra, I'm a Libra. Libra, okay.
• 33:05
  So we're like sort of neighbors, but not quite.
• 33:08
  Yeah, yeah, so... I don't know if you remember.
• 33:11
  Sorry, go ahead. No, no, no, it's OK. What date
• 33:13
  in October? October 11th. Gotcha. I only ask
• 33:15
  because my wife's birthday is on October 7th.
• 33:17
  So you're like four or five days apart. Oh, yeah.
• 33:20
  So I don't know if you remember what you wanted
• 33:23
  to be or like where you were when you were 17,
• 33:27
  like half of your life ago. Oh, sure. Absolutely.
• 33:31
  Yeah. So so for me, it's like I was sitting there
• 33:34
  remembering how when I first came here 17 years
• 33:37
  ago, Like none of the things that I thought would
• 33:40
  happen actually happened, but I was also very
• 33:43
  happy that my life turned out this way. So I
• 33:47
  think the meal was more a, it was a supplemental
• 33:51
  ingredient of that moment, but it was a ingredient
• 33:55
  that allowed me to feel comfort. like in my own
• 33:59
  skin, in my own environment. So that's why it
• 34:01
  was a great meal. I love that. And everything
• 34:04
  of what you're saying resonates with me so deeply.
• 34:07
  I just want to break it down for just a second.
• 34:09
  First of all, I mean, yeah, I mean, when I was
• 34:11
  17 years old, I believe I was like graduating
• 34:15
  high school, going into college, and I was very
• 34:18
  involved in my theater department as an actor.
• 34:22
  So going into college, I thought, all right,
• 34:23
  full time professional acting. I think that's
• 34:25
  what my purpose is going to be. And that didn't
• 34:28
  work out for a variety of reasons. So my life
• 34:31
  just kind of like segued into like radio and
• 34:33
  television broadcasting and then eventually now
• 34:35
  podcasting, which is what I primarily do. But
• 34:38
  I occasionally act here and there as a side thing.
• 34:41
  So I resonate with what you're saying. It's like,
• 34:44
  yes, it can be very easy to be like, oh, what
• 34:48
  I thought I would be doing as an adult going
• 34:50
  back to 17 years old is not what I'm doing. But
• 34:53
  as time has gone by, as I've, you know, you know,
• 34:57
  gone through therapy and meditation and such
• 34:59
  to, to really become more content with my life.
• 35:04
  Now I feel a sense of just gratitude and satisfaction
• 35:07
  that my journey is here, is where I am. So that
• 35:12
  is certainly something that resonates with me
• 35:15
  very strongly. And also, yeah, I mean, I've had
• 35:18
  so many experiences on my own. I mean, I'm with
• 35:22
  you. I mean, I think, it seems like you're, what,
• 35:26
  kind of a partial introvert, partial extrovert.
• 35:28
  Is that your vibe? I'm a mostly introvert that
• 35:31
  everyone thinks is an extrovert. because of what
• 35:34
  you do, like, you know, starting up after. Yeah.
• 35:37
  And like, for a while, I was, I actually really
• 35:40
  enjoy speaking on stage, but I enjoy emceeing
• 35:43
  and moderating for other people more. Yeah. So
• 35:46
  like, people see me on stage, but mostly it's
• 35:48
  just because I like asking others questions,
• 35:51
  making them feel comfortable, kind of understanding
• 35:53
  them. Uh, and I used to perform, like I am a
• 35:56
  pianist, I used to do classical and jazz piano.
• 35:58
  So like, I'm comfortable on stage. but mostly
• 36:02
  to perform and not to talk about myself. Gotcha.
• 36:04
  That makes sense. That makes sense. Yeah, no,
• 36:08
  I mean, I've certainly been at restaurants by
• 36:10
  myself. I've gone to the movie theater by myself.
• 36:13
  Yeah. I've gone to New York City many times to
• 36:16
  see like late night talk show tapings by myself.
• 36:20
  So yeah, you know, I think it's very easy in
• 36:23
  a society where basically told that, oh, if you're
• 36:27
  not experiencing these types of things with people,
• 36:30
  then you are weird. It can be very easy to feel
• 36:32
  self -conscious about that, but to be comfortable
• 36:35
  enough in your own skin to say, okay, I could
• 36:38
  keep myself company and go to a restaurant with
• 36:41
  all these people around me that are probably
• 36:43
  having dinner with their loved ones. And I'm
• 36:45
  just here solo and I'm enjoying a book and I'm
• 36:47
  enjoying my meal. I think that's great. That's
• 36:50
  wonderful. So thank you for sharing that. Now
• 36:56
  you, so you had mentioned that it was a rare
• 37:00
  time, a rare chance for you to be alone. And
• 37:03
  so when you're talking about, well, like when
• 37:05
  you're starting up the app, you're always dealing
• 37:08
  with coworkers and such. And I know you had mentioned
• 37:10
  that you were seeing some friends there in LA.
• 37:13
  So it sounds like your social battery is quite
• 37:17
  full and you just wanted that moment alone at
• 37:19
  the restaurant. Yeah. I'm married, so me and
• 37:23
  my husband are... Yeah, that too. That's the
• 37:27
  person I spend most of my time with. So when
• 37:30
  I travel, my husband is at home. So I think it's
• 37:34
  different types of comfort when I'm with my husband.
• 37:37
  Of course, I'm like very comfortable. I'm happy
• 37:39
  to be home. But I also like... It's almost like
• 37:44
  when I am in my married life, that reality has
• 37:47
  been constructed by two of us, right? And that
• 37:50
  is set and it's like we've built it together.
• 37:53
  But when I'm alone, I have this opportunity to
• 37:56
  construct my own reality. I decide what to order.
• 37:59
  I decide what to eat. I decide where to go. I
• 38:01
  decide to talk to a stranger or not talk to a
• 38:03
  stranger. And I think a bit like even like for
• 38:06
  watching a movie alone, which I actually that's
• 38:09
  what I did before eating alone. I went to watch
• 38:10
  the movie. So watching movies alone, eating alone,
• 38:14
  it might feel like a solo experience, but you
• 38:17
  are experiencing it with other people, like in
• 38:20
  that theater, right? You're experiencing that
• 38:21
  meal with other people who are eating. I think
• 38:25
  like human experience is like a collectivist
• 38:28
  experience, but it doesn't mean like you have
• 38:30
  to like collectively experience something in
• 38:32
  like a tight cluster. I think like for CHOMP
• 38:36
  actually like sorry to be like showing my product
• 38:39
  like rather than me segueing into it. Like one
• 38:42
  of the taglines that we're working with workshopping
• 38:45
  is group chat with the internet. There is a lot
• 38:48
  of people that feel alone in their own surroundings.
• 38:51
  There are a lot of people that you know talk
• 38:54
  about the male loneliness epidemic but also there's
• 38:56
  the female. Everyone's feeling more and more
• 38:58
  lonely and some of that in my opinion has to
• 39:01
  do with it's harder to connect when everyone
• 39:04
  is performing a version of themselves online,
• 39:07
  so that you don't know who the person really
• 39:08
  are. And for Chomp, I'm hoping to create this
• 39:12
  like group chat with the internet feel, so it's
• 39:15
  like intimate, yet you're tapping into a larger
• 39:17
  subconscious. But soon enough with these questions,
• 39:21
  we're kind of building a map of an individual
• 39:24
  and their beliefs, not just of their social background.
• 39:28
  And I would like to be able to matchmake people
• 39:30
  based on what they believe. Um, and build more
• 39:34
  unlikely connections between people that may
• 39:37
  be surprised that they all believe in the same
• 39:39
  thing, despite, you know, their socioeconomic
• 39:41
  or their demographic being so different from
• 39:43
  each other. Um, so I think, uh, like feeling
• 39:47
  alone and feeling lonely are very different,
• 39:51
  but I love being alone because sometimes it creates
• 39:54
  more serendipitous. Like encounters or moments
• 39:57
  or like moments of delight. Yeah. I'm going to
• 40:01
  the podcast movement conference in New York City
• 40:04
  and I'm going to that solo and it's going to
• 40:08
  be I think like what four days three nights that
• 40:11
  I'm spending in the city traveling from Vermont
• 40:13
  and you know a great opportunity to network with
• 40:18
  with all kinds of fellow podcasters but at the
• 40:21
  end of the day like I'm going there solo and
• 40:24
  there might be god knows how many podcasters
• 40:26
  going with podcaster friends and such and such
• 40:28
  so There is. Yeah. I mean, there, there, there
• 40:32
  is that fear. There is that curiosity of like,
• 40:34
  Oh, am I going to feel lonely amongst all this
• 40:37
  crowd of people? But as you say, um, I could
• 40:42
  also just be alone rather than lonely. Like it
• 40:46
  could just be like, Oh, I'm experiencing the
• 40:48
  same thing with amongst. hundreds of other podcasters
• 40:53
  and even though like I may not be directly having
• 40:56
  a conversation with one of them like we're all
• 40:58
  experiencing like this speaker or this session
• 41:00
  on how to improve in podcasting so and you know
• 41:03
  along the way you might be bonding with somebody
• 41:06
  sitting next to you about like oh my god what
• 41:08
  you know that thing that they said about monetization
• 41:10
  in that session like wasn't that great and maybe
• 41:12
  you make a friend or a networking connection
• 41:14
  from there so Yeah. You know, I totally get what
• 41:19
  you mean. I mean, there is quite a value in being
• 41:24
  alone. It doesn't mean you're lonely. It just
• 41:26
  means that you're comfortable with your own company
• 41:28
  and you're open to whatever the external experiences
• 41:31
  may happen over the course of that aloneness.
• 41:35
  Does that make sense? I feel like I'm rambling.
• 41:38
  Yeah. What's your delicious pop culture obsession
• 41:41
  this moment, Kiko? What are you watching or listening
• 41:44
  to that you want to share and talk about? So
• 41:45
  I'm actually watching Grace Anatomy for the first
• 41:49
  time. Wow. For the first time ever. Yeah, I've
• 41:53
  always heard about it. Of course, I know who
• 41:54
  Shana Rhimes is. You know, I've seen her other
• 41:57
  stuff, but I've never seen the OG Grace Anatomy,
• 42:00
  but it got on Netflix, right? And I was like,
• 42:03
  let me go try it. And I'm now on season seven.
• 42:07
  And it's like endless episodes, right? So I'm
• 42:10
  like, I can watch this whenever I want. I can
• 42:12
  follow these characters. And some of them, like
• 42:15
  Sandra Oh, right? And like some of these characters,
• 42:18
  the real -life actors have, you know, either
• 42:20
  moved on, passed away, or changed all of these
• 42:23
  forms. And it's so interesting to see who they
• 42:26
  were 20 years ago, and also to like follow these
• 42:30
  relationships. And I think, remember when, I
• 42:33
  mean, the McSteemies, the McDreamies, and like
• 42:37
  all of these characters and how they treat relationships
• 42:39
  I think at one point in time the level of selfishness
• 42:43
  some of these men exhibited in relationships
• 42:46
  were like celebrated and now it's not it's like
• 42:49
  the culture has gone from it's okay for men to
• 42:52
  be a certain way to no you're supposed to be
• 42:55
  like sensitive accommodating you know like not
• 42:58
  and not be aggressive in a certain way and now
• 43:02
  with like clavacular and some of the internet
• 43:05
  people getting clipped because of their aggressive
• 43:07
  behavior. Somehow the younger generations are
• 43:10
  now thinking that's more okay than before. And
• 43:13
  it's like an interesting shift of like dating
• 43:15
  culture, how people behave in relationships.
• 43:18
  And I think sometimes like I sometimes watch
• 43:20
  like 90s rom -com and I get that feeling right
• 43:23
  compare those like exchanges with like today's
• 43:26
  exchanges. And yeah, so so been watching Grey's
• 43:29
  Anatomy and also looking at a show where This
• 43:33
  was back when... people didn't have Netflix,
• 43:36
  right? Not all of them had cable and we actually
• 43:39
  had shared realities. Everyone watched the same
• 43:41
  show and everyone talked about it at the watercolor
• 43:44
  the next day. So I think a few things have changed
• 43:46
  since then. One is there's more remote work.
• 43:48
  So people are more like isolated and like separated.
• 43:51
  And two is there's more subscription services
• 43:54
  and on -demand content. So people are choosing
• 43:57
  and picking what they watch. And three is the
• 44:00
  internet and social media has gotten better at
• 44:02
  putting us in understandings. and giving us a
• 44:05
  very curated feed, which is good for customization
• 44:09
  and personalization, but bad for us to understand
• 44:11
  what other people are thinking. So, Grace Anatomy
• 44:14
  was produced and aired during a time where we
• 44:18
  all watched the same thing and we all talked
• 44:20
  about the same thing. And whatever is said in
• 44:22
  a TV show caused cultural shift, cultural phenomenons.
• 44:26
  Like everyone heard about it. And like, I think
• 44:29
  there's like... Like I'm like feeling nostalgic.
• 44:32
  I think in some ways that was a better time for
• 44:35
  television Although there are there are also
• 44:37
  other ways where it's not right But as a person
• 44:40
  who learned a lot about culture through watching
• 44:43
  TV and watching movies When I first came to America,
• 44:47
  I watched reruns of Saturday Night Live like
• 44:50
  on repeat, right? I would just watch it every
• 44:52
  single episode because I didn't understand when
• 44:54
  to laugh. Like I didn't understand what made
• 44:58
  an American scene like set, you know, I couldn't
• 45:01
  watch like you were going to talk show tapings,
• 45:05
  right? I would watch like Colbert or I would
• 45:08
  watch Conan and I would have no idea why it's
• 45:12
  funny. Cause of like the specifically American
• 45:15
  references. Yeah. Yeah. There's like American
• 45:18
  references and there's like a certain type of
• 45:20
  humor, like the dry, dry humor. Yeah, yeah, so
• 45:25
  like I did not understand that when I first came
• 45:27
  to the US so in order to like Understand what
• 45:31
  people are thinking understand what makes like
• 45:34
  what's considered funny? What's considered appropriate
• 45:36
  was considered? Slightly inappropriate but still
• 45:39
  possible on TV, right? I was watching a lot of
• 45:42
  SNL Alright, so you're like me and you're like
• 45:47
  I need to have a podcast with people I can talk
• 45:50
  to so I don't feel so lonely and weird But you
• 45:53
  don't know where to find guest after guest after
• 45:57
  guest. You're like me, maybe you're releasing
• 45:59
  a podcast episode once a week, twice a week.
• 46:02
  It is a consistent beast that needs to be fed.
• 46:06
  And that's where pod match comes in. Pod match
• 46:09
  gives you a wide pool of guests to choose from
• 46:12
  based on your specific type of podcasts, based
• 46:15
  on the specific type of guests you're looking
• 46:17
  for. They give you three matches every single
• 46:20
  day to choose from. And guess what? you publicly
• 46:23
  release those interviews, you get paid from Podmatch.
• 46:27
  As long as of course you prove it. Don't be,
• 46:29
  you know, talking to yourself and claiming that
• 46:33
  you talk to Bob Johnson from the milk company
• 46:38
  when it's just you, scammer. Podmatch. Get paid
• 46:43
  to release interviews from guests found through
• 46:47
  their platform. Join Podmatch using the link
• 46:49
  in my show notes. Can I ask what sense of humor
• 46:55
  did you have coming into the U .S.? What type
• 46:59
  of humor were you used to and were you laughing
• 47:01
  at before you got exposed to the U .S. style
• 47:04
  of humor? I think Chinese humor is more slapstick.
• 47:11
  Okay. And it's more visual, visual acting. that
• 47:17
  makes something funny. In the recent years, not
• 47:20
  so much anymore, in the recent years, there's
• 47:22
  been introduction of standup comedy, like different
• 47:25
  kinds of like more nuanced and more, I would
• 47:29
  say, sophisticated types of humor as well. But
• 47:33
  maybe it's also because when I left China, I
• 47:35
  was 12, right? So like I was only watching things
• 47:38
  that are like action comedic in a way. And I
• 47:44
  think in especially for talk shows, there is
• 47:48
  a lot of observational comedy, right? You like
• 47:50
  observe something happen, you make a commentary
• 47:52
  about it and people think it's funny because
• 47:54
  you're all in the know. Right, right, right,
• 47:56
  right. I did not have the experience of being
• 47:58
  in a note. I did not know, right? So I had to
• 48:00
  be understanding the cultural relevance and like
• 48:03
  why it's funny. Yeah, kind of like a Jerry Seinfeld
• 48:06
  -esque thing of observational comedy. Like, oh,
• 48:08
  you know, when you go to the dry cleaner and
• 48:10
  this thing happens and aren't you annoyed? Like,
• 48:12
  why does this thing happen at the dry cleaner?
• 48:13
  It's like that kind of thing. Yeah, there's that.
• 48:15
  And then there's like SNL has a lot of political
• 48:17
  commentary and like cultural and social commentary.
• 48:20
  And like, it's impossible to understand that
• 48:22
  without like Googling or like Wikipedia and like
• 48:24
  understand. what's the social discourse and why
• 48:27
  they're deciding to make comedy about it. So
• 48:29
  for example, there's also a lot of SNL skits
• 48:34
  that makes references to other TV shows or other
• 48:37
  celebrities, which you just don't know why it's
• 48:39
  funny if you haven't seen the other TV show,
• 48:42
  right? That they make fun of like... White Lotus,
• 48:44
  right? And I'm like, yeah, yeah. And like Jennifer
• 48:49
  Coolidge, like her behavior in a certain way.
• 48:52
  And if I didn't know how she was acting in White
• 48:56
  Lotus, I will be like, what is, this is bizarre,
• 48:58
  but like, what's funny about it? You know? Yeah.
• 49:01
  So anyway, so like - And it helps that they take
• 49:03
  from like the most popular TV shows and movies
• 49:05
  of the day, of the moment so that you will likely,
• 49:08
  likely get where it's coming from. Yeah. So I
• 49:12
  do think, I do think it's like our attention
• 49:15
  has been like divided more than before. But SNL
• 49:19
  is still where things like converge and congregate.
• 49:23
  And back in the day, I think so was like Grey's
• 49:26
  Anatomy was a place where culture was produced.
• 49:28
  And that wasn't just an interesting thing to
• 49:30
  rewatch or watch for the first time. But yeah,
• 49:35
  you and my wife can have a long conversation
• 49:37
  about this. I mean, she is either one of many
• 49:41
  or one of the few people that have watched Grey's
• 49:43
  from the beginning and has still stuck with it
• 49:45
  to this day. She's all caught up with the current
• 49:49
  season. I think they're at like season 20 something,
• 49:51
  21 or 22, I can't remember. Yeah, yeah. I have
• 49:55
  a long ways to go. When I get there, I will call
• 49:57
  you and meet your wife. And I'm glad you're not
• 50:02
  anxious about getting there as quickly as possible,
• 50:04
  because, like, I mean, I used to watch Grey's
• 50:07
  back in the day. I think, like, maybe early 2010s
• 50:09
  when I was in between colleges and I had a semester
• 50:12
  off. I even bought one of the DVD sets. I think
• 50:15
  I had, like, season four or five on DVD. So I
• 50:18
  really used to be into Grey's back in the day.
• 50:21
  And, yeah, just the key moments that stick out
• 50:24
  to me, of course, is just the genesis of Derek
• 50:26
  Shepherd and Meredith Grey's relationship and
• 50:28
  Meredith and her mom. that dynamic, Meredith
• 50:31
  and Christina's dynamic, Izzy and the whole ghost
• 50:35
  story. Am I spoiling it for you? Oh, my God.
• 50:38
  How far are you? No, no, no. I've seen all of
• 50:40
  that. Oh, yeah, yeah. You're on season seven.
• 50:42
  OK, so you're far ahead. Yeah, yeah. I also think
• 50:44
  it's so interesting because, like, I watch it
• 50:46
  in concentration, right? Because previously,
• 50:48
  people would watch it like... week by week and
• 50:50
  I watch it I'm like I don't think this makes
• 50:52
  any sense right why are they writing off Burke
• 50:54
  why is George dying why is Izzy doing this and
• 50:57
  that and then you have to like go to the tabloids
• 50:59
  from back then right and be like oh this is what's
• 51:02
  happening between the actors so it's like you're
• 51:05
  also understanding the lore around it as you're
• 51:08
  watching because the show was like being written
• 51:11
  and rewritten, you know, as it progressed as
• 51:14
  the characters off camera are developing their
• 51:17
  relationships with each other. So it's interesting.
• 51:19
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dr. Burke, Isaiah Washington.
• 51:22
  And I think I even had to explain this to my
• 51:24
  wife, who, again, is a Super Grace fan. I believe
• 51:28
  that Isaiah Washington and Patrick Dempsey, who
• 51:31
  played, of course, Dr. Derek Sheppard, they had
• 51:34
  a sort of onset verbal brawl, if you will. I
• 51:41
  think it had to do with, I think it had to do
• 51:43
  with, um, Isaiah being annoyed that Patrick was
• 51:46
  like coming late on set frequently. And, um,
• 51:50
  they had, uh, a little tiff about it and Isaiah
• 51:55
  apparently said something along the lines of
• 51:58
  like, you know, dude, I read about it. Yeah.
• 52:01
  You read about it. Exactly. Like he, he used
• 52:04
  the F word to Patrick, like, Oh, you don't treat
• 52:06
  me like an F word. And Ice Gaya defends it as
• 52:09
  like, oh, I, you know, meant it as like, don't
• 52:12
  treat me as a weak person. But the F slur is,
• 52:15
  we all know it's an offensive slur towards homosexuals.
• 52:20
  And I guess T .R. Knight, who played George,
• 52:23
  who's gay in real life, maybe overheard that
• 52:26
  conversation and I think his reaction to it.
• 52:31
  Um, and maybe other cast and crew members reaction
• 52:34
  to it is what led to this big drama. Now granted
• 52:38
  this, I would say this is like all squarely on
• 52:41
  Isaiah, not only for saying that slur, but also
• 52:44
  if you remember from the tabloid coverage of
• 52:47
  it, uh, he could have just apologized and clarified
• 52:51
  where he was watching. No, he could have just
• 52:53
  apologized and left it at that and never said
• 52:57
  the word again, but. I think what got him fired
• 53:00
  was, uh, I think initially he apologized and
• 53:04
  then, uh, Grey's Anatomy, they won like a bunch
• 53:06
  of awards at like the Golden Globes or whatever.
• 53:08
  And they were doing, like the cast was like being
• 53:10
  interviewed by the press after they won the awards.
• 53:13
  And, uh, I think a press agent asked a question
• 53:17
  about this controversy and Isaiah thought he
• 53:20
  was being humorous when he stepped in and it
• 53:22
  was like, no, I did not call TR an F word. And
• 53:25
  you could see like the cast cringing. notably
• 53:28
  Patrick Dempsey. And I could be wrong, but I
• 53:33
  believe it was that, him digging himself a deeper
• 53:36
  ditch like that, that led to his dismissal from
• 53:41
  the show. Because otherwise, I think Burke would
• 53:42
  have stayed there for God knows how long. I mean,
• 53:44
  he eventually came back. Sorry. Spoiler alert.
• 53:48
  No, it's okay. I'm always on Wikipedia at the
• 53:50
  same time of watching the show. So I know that
• 53:53
  he came back when Sandra Oh was like departing
• 53:55
  from the show or something. Yes, season 10 I
• 53:57
  think. Although, I do have to say I am not sure
• 54:00
  if I'm understanding like the Sandra Oh, the
• 54:02
  Christina like whole thing either. I feel like
• 54:05
  her character development like with Burke leaving,
• 54:08
  I feel like the development that she was meant
• 54:10
  to have kind of like had to pivot. Really? In
• 54:14
  a bad way? I don't buy the whole, like, she was
• 54:17
  gonna get married and then he's like, oh, I'm
• 54:19
  trying to change you and therefore I will, like,
• 54:22
  let you go and, like, not try to change you and
• 54:24
  not get married to you. Like, what a cowardly
• 54:26
  thing to do, right? And that probably was only
• 54:27
  written in that way because Burke had to be written
• 54:30
  off the show. And then she's going through this,
• 54:34
  like, I don't know. I understand the plight of
• 54:39
  a woman trying to be a strong woman. you know,
• 54:42
  in certain dire environments. I understand that.
• 54:45
  I think the level of pretension, maybe is the
• 54:49
  wrong word. I think the level of unwillingness
• 54:51
  for her to discuss things with her closest friends.
• 54:54
  I think the level of like, close -off -iveness
• 54:56
  she was experiencing, even though previously,
• 54:58
  you know, this is someone she shows up to and
• 55:01
  sleeps on the bed. Like, married, that's right.
• 55:02
  She goes to her house and sleeps on her bed,
• 55:05
  but she's unwilling to talk to her. Like, does
• 55:07
  that make logical sense? I don't really know.
• 55:09
  I felt like it was... Like, there were parts
• 55:11
  of her character that, in my opinion, was written
• 55:13
  in a way that's out of character for her, but
• 55:16
  maybe was written to help with the development
• 55:19
  of, like, the show. Yeah, because, like, I think
• 55:23
  they wanted to create maybe, like, a relationship
• 55:25
  or a friendship between McDreamy, like, between
• 55:30
  Derek and Christina for a little... Yeah, and,
• 55:33
  like, they wanted to create that. Like they wanted
• 55:35
  some kind of conflict to result in a deepening
• 55:38
  of relationship between certain characters. So
• 55:40
  that they had to write her and that was my observation.
• 55:44
  And then another thing was like, I didn't think
• 55:45
  George needed to die, right? It seemed like he...
• 55:50
  What is the name? T .R. Knight? T .R. Knight,
• 55:52
  yeah. Now, you probably know about this better
• 55:55
  than I do, but like, was he just like ready to
• 55:57
  move on from the show? Do you know the reason
• 55:58
  why he left after season five? According to my
• 56:00
  limited investigation, it seemed like he was
• 56:03
  unhappy about the limited scenes that he was
• 56:06
  getting, and he like tried to talk to Shonda
• 56:08
  and like didn't work out, and then he kind of
• 56:10
  like left the show and went into Broadway, I
• 56:12
  think is what happened. But they were shaping
• 56:16
  him up to be a long -stay character. It was very
• 56:19
  interesting because like, Owen came right from
• 56:22
  the army and he's like, George, you're a, you're
• 56:25
  a trauma doctor, you know, you're calm under
• 56:26
  pressure. And there's already like, that made
• 56:29
  sense because there was a time George like fixed
• 56:31
  the heart in the elevator. There's a time where
• 56:34
  George delivered Miranda's baby, right? Like
• 56:36
  all of these pattern made sense of how he could
• 56:38
  be a really good ER trauma doctor. Right. And
• 56:41
  then he just died. Like it was going somewhere.
• 56:48
  I think he got like, ran over by a truck and
• 56:50
  like, he was like, really bandaged up. Yeah,
• 56:54
  I think he just suddenly departed from the show.
• 56:57
  Yeah, so, I mean, I can't even remember. What
• 57:00
  was the last moment that we had of like, full
• 57:02
  normal George before he got hit in the accident?
• 57:05
  I think he was like, bonding with Owen and then
• 57:09
  all of a sudden he decided to join the army.
• 57:11
  And then, yeah, he decided to join the army and
• 57:14
  then Izzy was like, having some weird phantom
• 57:18
  dream as she was having is he also a character
• 57:20
  doesn't make sense to me but like she was like
• 57:23
  oh uh George can't go to the army he's gonna
• 57:27
  die but like oh so like foreshadowing by by saying
• 57:30
  you know oh he's gonna die if he goes into the
• 57:32
  army and then he yeah a different way yeah yeah
• 57:37
  he like died trying to save people like try to
• 57:41
  save um I think there was an accident. He died
• 57:43
  trying to save a woman or something. Well, first
• 57:45
  of all, I didn't even know that Owen was in the
• 57:47
  show that early. I thought he came like after
• 57:48
  George had already left. No, no, they they overlap
• 57:51
  for a little bit. Yeah. But anyway, here's a
• 57:54
  refresher. No, no, no, it's OK. Yeah. Thank you.
• 57:57
  Thank you. Because it's been God, it's been so
• 57:58
  many years. I think I keep telling my wife, I
• 58:00
  think when you have you already met Meredith's
• 58:02
  sister, Lexi. Yes. And is Lexi still there? And
• 58:06
  you don't have to worry about spoiling it to
• 58:08
  me. You can't just keep talking. I know. I know.
• 58:11
  At some point she dies. But you haven't watched
• 58:14
  that moment yet? I have not watched that moment.
• 58:16
  At some point, Mark Sloan also dies. I'm aware
• 58:19
  that this happened. It has something to do with
• 58:21
  the plane crash, I think. This is my Wikipedia
• 58:24
  investigation. So how does that not ruin the
• 58:27
  show for you if you kind of already know that
• 58:28
  these characters are all going away? Because
• 58:31
  some people watch it for the storyline, some
• 58:34
  people watch it for the character development.
• 58:36
  I am much more interested in how people react
• 58:38
  to these situations. Like it doesn't ruin it
• 58:41
  for me because I don't like. Hence the chop app.
• 58:45
  Yeah. Yeah. Like I, it doesn't ruin it for me.
• 58:47
  It's kind of like saying like, Oh, like, you
• 58:49
  know, that people are going to go into a wooden
• 58:51
  horse and break that gate. Did you like watching
• 58:53
  Troy? Yeah. I still like watching it. I still
• 58:57
  understand, you know, Helen, you know, I liked
• 58:59
  the love affair. Like, you know, like why are
• 59:01
  people watching Odyssey? You know, the story
• 59:02
  was written years and years ago. They still like
• 59:05
  watching it. It's more like how. how the directing
• 59:09
  and how the characters were able to build up
• 59:11
  to that moment, and how good the acting is to
• 59:14
  make you feel like how they're feeling. Yeah,
• 59:18
  I think it's the humans that make the stories,
• 59:21
  like, you know, trick or fall down. and no person
• 59:23
  is around, no reaction, it would not be a story,
• 59:26
  you know? Like, it's more the human reactions
• 59:28
  and the relationships they have with each other,
• 59:31
  the dialogues that amplify that relationship,
• 59:35
  I think that makes stories compelling. I unintentionally
• 59:38
  found out a major character died in a show that
• 59:41
  my wife and I were enjoying called Homeland.
• 59:44
  Yeah, I haven't seen that. Yeah, it's a great
• 59:47
  show. We finished the show, Homeland, like, quite
• 59:49
  a while ago. And I found out before I... wanted
• 59:51
  to find out before I actually watched that major
• 59:54
  character die. So of course, I'm like kicking
• 59:56
  myself in the foot about it, but to your point,
• 59:59
  that doesn't make me stop watching the show.
• 1:00:01
  Now it's like, oh, okay, now I'm curious as to
• 1:00:04
  how they get to that point. I'm racing for it,
• 1:00:07
  I'm waiting for it, but like, I'm still curious
• 1:00:10
  and interested as to how they get to that point
• 1:00:12
  of the major characters death. Yeah. It's like
• 1:00:14
  when you go to like a music, like a concert,
• 1:00:16
  you kind of like are waiting for the drop, right?
• 1:00:18
  The EDM, you're waiting for like the beat to
• 1:00:20
  drop, but then when it drops in an unexpected
• 1:00:22
  way, you're happier about it. You're like, oh,
• 1:00:24
  it didn't drop there, but like it's here at this
• 1:00:26
  like... the moment that build up and it makes
• 1:00:28
  so much more sense. And I think you're happy
• 1:00:30
  about it. I do have a friend that is building
• 1:00:33
  an entire company around no spoilers. It's very
• 1:00:37
  interesting. Yeah, he's building some AI filtering
• 1:00:42
  tool that allows you ideally to not see spoilers
• 1:00:46
  ever again. If you're interested in like anime
• 1:00:49
  or like manga or if you're interested in certain
• 1:00:52
  shows, it just like filters all of the spoilers.
• 1:00:54
  And I actually listen to a podcast called The
• 1:00:57
  Slash Film Cast or The Film Cast religiously.
• 1:01:00
  I've been listening to them for like a decade
• 1:01:01
  and a half. And one of them just like never go
• 1:01:03
  and watch a spoiler. So I never watch his previews
• 1:01:05
  and like goes in at the end, like after preview
• 1:01:07
  is done. I think like people who produce these
• 1:01:10
  trailers and previews is like an art form in
• 1:01:13
  itself for them to like create that suspense
• 1:01:16
  and like make the story so like condensed in
• 1:01:18
  that way. So I think they deserve to be watched.
• 1:01:22
  I will say some of the reason why I like want
• 1:01:26
  to find out what happened before it does is driven
• 1:01:28
  by maybe preparing myself like wanting to prepare
• 1:01:32
  myself more before like a moment arises and then
• 1:01:36
  I participate in a lot of like speculation of
• 1:01:39
  endings you know watching like Stranger Things
• 1:01:41
  or like Game of Thrones I'm like always participating
• 1:01:44
  and like speculating what happened and trying
• 1:01:46
  to see if I'm right when it happens I don't know
• 1:01:48
  if you do that I do not do that. What I will
• 1:01:51
  say though on the spoilers front, I really am
• 1:01:54
  curious to see how your friend's no spoilers
• 1:01:56
  idea works out because it has gotten so bad to
• 1:01:58
  the point with spoilers. Like I remember like
• 1:02:01
  when I, you know, like when I would, you know,
• 1:02:03
  edit this podcast and I would like insert images
• 1:02:05
  to illustrate sort of the pop culture or content
• 1:02:08
  that was being talked about just looking up images.
• 1:02:12
  can spoil something, you know? Like, just looking
• 1:02:14
  up an image, saving it and, you know, putting
• 1:02:17
  it on your podcast episode, you then realize,
• 1:02:20
  like, oh, wait a minute, why is this character
• 1:02:21
  picture doing this? Oh, crap, I think I spoiled
• 1:02:25
  it. Because, like, usually the image will link
• 1:02:28
  to an article of, like, a major story development
• 1:02:31
  in the show. So, yeah, I mean, the no spoilers
• 1:02:35
  idea, that's certainly an interesting thing that
• 1:02:38
  I want to hear more about. There's also, did
• 1:02:45
  you see Obsession? Yes, oh my god, my wife and
• 1:02:47
  I loved that movie. It was great, yeah. Okay,
• 1:02:50
  so a lot of people were 100 % spoiled on TikTok.
• 1:02:56
  Right before they went into the movie because
• 1:02:58
  like that was one of their like go -to market
• 1:02:59
  They just like clipped all over it and I got
• 1:03:01
  everyone to like watch it on on tik -tok Yeah,
• 1:03:04
  um, but I don't think it stopped people from
• 1:03:06
  watching a movie or a lot of them like went in
• 1:03:08
  because they saw on tik -tok because The plot
• 1:03:10
  line. Um, so like I like yes, my friend is building
• 1:03:14
  it. Yes I support him and I and I gave him a
• 1:03:16
  small angel check, but I personally i'm like
• 1:03:19
  not against spoilers um, and I think sometimes
• 1:03:23
  um, we like younger generations' attention spans
• 1:03:26
  are so much shorter that maybe it just makes
• 1:03:28
  them feel more comfortable to see a glimpse so
• 1:03:32
  they feel like it's worth spending the money.
• 1:03:34
  I don't really know. No, no, I know what you
• 1:03:37
  mean. Like, spoilers can certainly be a marketing
• 1:03:40
  benefit. You know what I mean? Like, even though,
• 1:03:43
  you know, oh, shit, like, now I found out that
• 1:03:46
  this character's arc is going to go this way,
• 1:03:48
  you could still be fascinated enough by that
• 1:03:51
  brief clip that you saw on TikTok that you're
• 1:03:53
  like, oh, actually, I want to see the full story
• 1:03:55
  to see how they led up to that point. So, yeah,
• 1:03:58
  spoilers can be beneficial to getting people
• 1:04:00
  to see the content. Hey, I got new glasses. Oh
• 1:04:07
  wait, you wouldn't know that if you're only listening
• 1:04:10
  you would only loan that for sure if you're watching
• 1:04:13
  on YouTube you So that you could tell me in the
• 1:04:18
  comments whether you like my glasses or not subscribe
• 1:04:21
  to YouTube at the delicious culture John Francois
• 1:04:25
  at the delicious culture j -o -n -f -r -a -n
• 1:04:29
  -c -o -i -s and now I'm taking my glasses off
• 1:04:32
  because again That's something you can only watch
• 1:04:36
  on YouTube. Let's get to our final question,
• 1:04:43
  because I know we're past the hour point right
• 1:04:44
  now. Yeah. What is a delicious thing that's happened
• 1:04:47
  in your life lately, Kiko? I think the fact that,
• 1:04:49
  like, I'm seeing an old friend tonight, just
• 1:04:52
  like how many of my friends have, like, congregated
• 1:04:55
  in LA around this time, I did not expect it.
• 1:04:58
  I sent a tweet about how I'm in LA. and like
• 1:05:02
  reminiscing about how I was here 17 years ago.
• 1:05:05
  And then this really old friend, like we were,
• 1:05:09
  I was at my first, the startup I was a part of,
• 1:05:11
  and then he was also there. I was the first business
• 1:05:14
  hire, he was the second, and we did like so much
• 1:05:15
  together, learned so much from each other, and
• 1:05:17
  we lost touch for like a year. And he randomly
• 1:05:20
  messages me, because he saw the tweet, and he's
• 1:05:22
  like, I'm also in LA. I can't believe you're
• 1:05:25
  here. Yeah and now we're gonna we're gonna see
• 1:05:27
  each other so like that is a very delicious moment
• 1:05:30
  like I I love that um I love that like having
• 1:05:34
  you know spend the 34 years of my life like across
• 1:05:37
  all these different places it's made me feel
• 1:05:39
  out of place it's made me feel isolated or whatnot
• 1:05:41
  but it's also made me so many friends in different
• 1:05:45
  parts of the world yeah that I'm able to reconnect
• 1:05:48
  with them in these like very surprising ways.
• 1:05:51
  So I think I love that. I love that. That's so
• 1:05:53
  great. That's such a great answer. And I guess
• 1:05:57
  to bounce off of that, you know, I'm here in
• 1:06:00
  Vermont, but that this is not this has not been
• 1:06:02
  my own my whole life I yeah I started in my home
• 1:06:05
  state of Connecticut and then as I told you went
• 1:06:07
  to Philly for a little bit for college and then
• 1:06:09
  went to Iowa to continue a radio career that
• 1:06:12
  I was happening at the time and Vermont my move
• 1:06:15
  to Vermont actually was originally to keep on
• 1:06:18
  going with my radio career. And then as I left
• 1:06:20
  that industry and just evolved into this podcasting
• 1:06:24
  and acting hybrid, I just found a wonderful life
• 1:06:29
  here. So I met my wife here and I met a nice
• 1:06:33
  group of friends here, but also Um, you know,
• 1:06:36
  there are friends in the presence. There are
• 1:06:38
  friends that I haven't seen in a while that I
• 1:06:40
  occasionally love to reconnect with from the
• 1:06:42
  past, either here in Vermont, still some from
• 1:06:45
  Connecticut, still some from my Philly days.
• 1:06:47
  Uh, one of my recent podcast guests was someone
• 1:06:49
  that I hadn't seen since the college days in
• 1:06:50
  Philly. Um, you know, a couple of people from
• 1:06:53
  Iowa that I still reconnect with. Um, so it's
• 1:06:56
  wonderful because it's, I, I think it's very
• 1:06:58
  easy to, um, say, okay, I'm going to have this
• 1:07:00
  connection with this person at this point in
• 1:07:02
  time. And then once we physically are in different
• 1:07:04
  places, I'm never going to see or hear that person
• 1:07:06
  again, but there could always be these chance
• 1:07:09
  moments, whether it be what you said, like the
• 1:07:11
  Twitter interaction that you had with this friend
• 1:07:13
  that you reconnected with or, um, or I don't
• 1:07:16
  know, I could be randomly on a jog. And I just
• 1:07:20
  think, oh, wait a minute, like this friend here
• 1:07:22
  in Vermont that I haven't talked to since like
• 1:07:23
  before the pandemic, I wonder how they're doing.
• 1:07:25
  Let me like, reach out to them on Facebook and
• 1:07:28
  see what they're up to. And now, you know, we
• 1:07:30
  have these semi regular hangouts, like I don't
• 1:07:32
  know, two, three times a year, where we're just,
• 1:07:34
  you know, catching up on our lives. So Uh, yeah,
• 1:07:37
  it's, it's, it's so special. It's so special.
• 1:07:39
  Um, you know, it's experiencing life in different
• 1:07:43
  places around the world and around maybe a specific
• 1:07:45
  country and, uh, all the different varieties
• 1:07:49
  and flavors of people that you get to experience
• 1:07:50
  it with and that you get to reconnect with, uh,
• 1:07:53
  every now and then, you know, regardless of how
• 1:07:56
  much time passes by, uh, Yeah, I think the resounding
• 1:08:01
  message here is that life is a beautiful thing,
• 1:08:03
  Kiko. Yeah, it's not about a delicious meal.
• 1:08:07
  It's about a delicious moment that you're sharing
• 1:08:09
  the meal, like of the people that you're sharing
• 1:08:11
  the meal with. Yep. Yep. I've said this before,
• 1:08:13
  but like I always go back to this Indian meal
• 1:08:16
  that I had with my DJ friend, Craig Mitchell,
• 1:08:19
  who's also been on the podcast and the food was
• 1:08:22
  delicious. But what really resonates with me
• 1:08:24
  more was the conversation about all the things
• 1:08:27
  going on in our life and us talking about like,
• 1:08:30
  Oh my God, this food is good. So it's just the
• 1:08:34
  vibe. It's the vibe. It's the moment. It's the
• 1:08:36
  atmosphere. Like that's, that's what makes the
• 1:08:38
  meal more enhanced. This was wonderful. So can
• 1:08:42
  you please plug everything? Like how can we find
• 1:08:45
  you on socials? How can we find the CHOP app
• 1:08:48
  when it's ready to go? Tell us where we can connect
• 1:08:51
  with you. Yeah. Um, so I actually just started
• 1:08:54
  a new Instagram and TikTok account, uh, as Kiko
• 1:08:57
  Chomps. So K -I -K -O -C -H -O -M -P -S, Kiko
• 1:09:00
  Chomps. It's very new. You can critique me if
• 1:09:03
  the conversation me and John had about Chomp
• 1:09:06
  confused you or intrigued you. Either are good
• 1:09:08
  reasons for you to check out, uh, chomp .fyi.
• 1:09:11
  So C -O -C -H -O -M -P .F -Y -I is our landing
• 1:09:15
  page. And, um, we have a wait list sign up there.
• 1:09:18
  We will send you the at the moment as ready for
• 1:09:21
  for you to try. All right, Keiko, we got to do
• 1:09:23
  this again. This was such a great conversation.
• 1:09:25
  Thank you. We'll love to do it again. Actually,
• 1:09:27
  maybe talk about grace. That'd be with your wife.
• 1:09:29
  Yes, please. Oh, my God. My wife, Tony, has been
• 1:09:32
  on the podcast a couple of times. So we'll have
• 1:09:35
  a pop culture, TV show, nostalgic episode. We'll
• 1:09:41
  do a Grey's Anatomy three person panel. I was
• 1:09:43
  going to say, I was going to say a threesome,
• 1:09:46
  but probably like be a more appropriate way to
• 1:09:48
  say it would be a Grey's Anatomy thrice person
• 1:09:51
  panel. Yes. Yes. That would be awesome. I would
• 1:09:54
  love that. There you go. All right. Until next
• 1:09:57
  time, everybody let deliciousness ring. Okay,
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