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009 - Lincoln's Reply Part 1 · Noted Speeches of Abraham Lincoln

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  Speaker 1: Section nine of Noted Speeches of Abraham Lincoln, edited by
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  Speaker 1: Lillian Marie Briggs. This is a LibriVox recording. All LibriVox
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  Speaker 1: recordings are in the public domain. For more information or
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  Speaker 1: to volunteer, please visit LibriVox dot org. Noted Speeches of
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  Speaker 1: Abraham Lincoln, edited by Lillian Marie Briggs. Lincoln Douglas Debate,
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  Speaker 1: first joint Debate, delivered at Ottawa, Illinois, August twenty first,
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  Speaker 1: eighteen fifty eight. Lincoln's reply, Part one, My fellow citizens,
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  Speaker 1: when a man hears himself somewhat misrepresented, it provokes him,
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  Speaker 1: at least I find it so with myself. But when
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  Speaker 1: misrepresentation becomes very gross and palpable, it is more apt
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  Speaker 1: to amuse him. The first thing I see fit to
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  Speaker 1: notice is the fact that Judge Douglas alleges, after running
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  Speaker 1: through the history of the old Democratic and the old
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  Speaker 1: Whig parties, that Judge Trumbull and myself made an arrangement
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  Speaker 1: in eighteen fifty four by which I was to have
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  Speaker 1: the place of General Shields in the United States Senate,
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  Speaker 1: and Judge Trumbull was to have the place of Judge Douglas. Now,
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  Speaker 1: all I have to say upon that subject is that.
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  Speaker 1: I think no man, not even Judge Douglas, can prove it,
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  Speaker 1: because it is not true. I have no doubt he
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  Speaker 1: is conscientious in saying it. As to those resolutions that
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  Speaker 1: he took such a length of time to read as
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  Speaker 1: being the platform of the Republican Party in eighteen fifty four,
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  Speaker 1: I say I never had anything to do with them,
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  Speaker 1: and I think Trumbull never had. Judge Douglas cannot show
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  Speaker 1: that either of us ever did have anything to do
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  Speaker 1: with them. I believe this is true about those resolutions.
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  Speaker 1: There's a call for a convention to form a Republican
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  Speaker 1: Party at Springfield, and I think that my friend mister Lovejoy,
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  Speaker 1: who is here upon the stand, had a hand in it.
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  Speaker 1: I think this is true, and I think if he
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  Speaker 1: will remember accurately, he will be able to recollect that
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  Speaker 1: he tried to get me into it, and I would
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  Speaker 1: not go in. I believe it is also true that
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  Speaker 1: I went away from Springfield when the convention was in
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  Speaker 1: session to attend court in Tazewell County. It is true
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  Speaker 1: they did place my name, though without authority, upon the committee,
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  Speaker 1: and afterward wrote to me to attend the meeting. Of
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  Speaker 1: the Committee, but I refused to do so, and I
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  Speaker 1: never had anything to do with that organization. This is
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  Speaker 1: the plain truth about all that matter of the resolutions.
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  Speaker 1: Now about this story that Judge Douglas tells of Trumbull
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  Speaker 1: bargaining to sell out the old Democratic Party and Lincoln
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  Speaker 1: agreeing to sell out the old Whig Party, I have
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  Speaker 1: the means of knowing about that. Judge Douglas cannot have,
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  Speaker 1: and I know there is no substance to it whatever.
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  Speaker 1: Yet I have no doubt he is conscientious about it.
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  Speaker 1: I know that after mister Lovejoy got into legislature that winter,
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  Speaker 1: he complained to me that I had told all the
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  Speaker 1: old Whigs of his district that the old Whig Party
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  Speaker 1: was good enough for them, and some of them voted
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  Speaker 1: against him because I told them so. Now I have
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  Speaker 1: no means of totally disproving such charges as this which
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  Speaker 1: the Judge makes. A man cannot prove a negative, but
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  Speaker 1: he has a right to claim that. When a man
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  Speaker 1: makes an affirmative charge, he must offer some proof to
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  Speaker 1: show the truth of what he says. I certainly cannot
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  Speaker 1: introduce testimony to show the negative about things, but I
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  Speaker 1: have a right to claim that if a man says
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  Speaker 1: he knows a thing, then he must show how he
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  Speaker 1: knows it. I always have a right to claim this,
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  Speaker 1: and it is not satisfactory to me that he may
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  Speaker 1: be conscientious on the subject. Now, gentlemen, I hate to
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  Speaker 1: waste my time on such things. But in regard to
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  Speaker 1: that general abolition tilt that Judge Douglas makes when he
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  Speaker 1: says that I was engaged at that time in selling
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  Speaker 1: out and abolitionizing the old Whig Party, I hope you
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  Speaker 1: will permit me to read a part of a printed
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  Speaker 1: speech that I made then at Peoria, which will show
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  Speaker 1: altogether a different view of the position I took in
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  Speaker 1: that contest of eighteen fifty four. Voice put on your specs, Yes, sir,
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  Speaker 1: I am obliged to do so. I am no longer
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  Speaker 1: a young man. This is the repeal of the Missouri Compromise.
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  Speaker 1: The foregoing history may not be precisely accurate in every particular,
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  Speaker 1: but I am sure it is sufficiently so for all
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  Speaker 1: all the uses I shall attempt to make of it,
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  Speaker 1: And in it we have before us the chief materials
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  Speaker 1: enabling us to correctly judge whether the repeal of the
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  Speaker 1: Missouri Compromise is right or wrong, I think and shall
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  Speaker 1: try to show that it is wrong, wrong in its
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  Speaker 1: direct effect letting slavery into Kansas and Nebraska, and wrong
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  Speaker 1: in its prospective principle allowing it to spread to every
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  Speaker 1: other part of the wide world where men can be
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  Speaker 1: found inclined to take it. This declared indifference, but as
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  Speaker 1: I must think covert real zeal for the spread of slavery,
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  Speaker 1: I cannot but hate. I hate it because of the
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  Speaker 1: monstrous injustice of slavery itself. I hate it because it
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  Speaker 1: deprives our republican example of its just influence in the world,
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  Speaker 1: enables the enemies of free institutions with plausibility to taught
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  Speaker 1: us as hypocrites, causes the real friends of freedom to
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  Speaker 1: doubt our sincerity, and especially because it forces so many
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  Speaker 1: really good men amongst ourselves into an open war with
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  Speaker 1: the very fundamental principles of civil liberty, criticizing the Declaration
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  Speaker 1: of Independence and insisting that there is no right principle
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  Speaker 1: of action but self interest. Before proceeding, let me say,
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  Speaker 1: I think I have no prejudice against the Southern people.
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  Speaker 1: They are just what we would be in their situation
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  Speaker 1: if slavery did not now exist among them, they would
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  Speaker 1: not introduce it if it did now exist among us,
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  Speaker 1: we should not instantly give it up. This, I believe
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  Speaker 1: of the masses north and South. Doubtless there are individuals
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  Speaker 1: on both sides who would not hold slaves under any circumstances,
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  Speaker 1: and others who would gladly introduce slavery anew if it
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  Speaker 1: were out of existence. We know that some Southern men
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  Speaker 1: do free their slaves, go north and become tip top abolitionists,
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  Speaker 1: while some northern ones go south and become most cruel
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  Speaker 1: slave masters. When Southern people tell us they are no
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  Speaker 1: more responsible for the origin of slavery than we, I
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  Speaker 1: acknowledge the fact. When it is said that the institution
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  Speaker 1: exists and that it is very difficult to get rid
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  Speaker 1: of it in any satisfactory way, I can understand and
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  Speaker 1: appreciate the saying. I surely will not blame them for
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  Speaker 1: not doing what I should not know how to do myself.
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  Speaker 1: If all earthly power were given me, I should not
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  Speaker 1: know what to do as to the existing institution. My
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  Speaker 1: first impulse would be to free all the slaves and
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  Speaker 1: send them to Liberia to their own native lamp. But
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  Speaker 1: a moment's reflection would convince me that whatever of high
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  Speaker 1: hope as I think there is there may be in
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  Speaker 1: this in the long run, its sudden execution is impossible.
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  Speaker 1: If they were all landed there in a day, they
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  Speaker 1: would all perish in the next ten days. And there
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  Speaker 1: are not surplus shipping and surplus money enough in the
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  Speaker 1: world to carry them there in many times ten days.
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  Speaker 1: What then, free them all and keep them among us
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  Speaker 1: as underlings? Is it quite certain that this betters their condition?
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  Speaker 1: I think I would not hold one in slavery at
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  Speaker 1: any rate. Yet the point is not clear enough to
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  Speaker 1: me to denounce people. Upon what next? Free them and
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  Speaker 1: make them politically and socially our equals. My own feelings
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  Speaker 1: will not admit of this, But if mine would, we
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  Speaker 1: well know that those of the great mass of white
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  Speaker 1: people will not. Whether this feeling accords with justice and
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  Speaker 1: sound judgment is not the sole question, If indeed it
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  Speaker 1: is any part of it, a universal feeling, whether well
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  Speaker 1: or ill founded, cannot be safely disregarded. We cannot make
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  Speaker 1: them equals. It does seem to me that systems of
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  Speaker 1: gradual emancipation might be adopted, but for their tardiness in
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  Speaker 1: this I will not undertake to judge our brethren of
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  Speaker 1: the South, when they remind us of their constitutional rights,
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  Speaker 1: I acknowledge them, not grudgingly, but fully and fairly. And
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  Speaker 1: I would give them any legislation for the reclaiming of
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  Speaker 1: their fugitives which should not, in its stringency, be more
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  Speaker 1: likely to carry a free man into slavery than our
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  Speaker 1: ordinary criminal laws are to hang an innocent one. But
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  Speaker 1: all this, to my judgment, furnishes no more excuse for
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  Speaker 1: permitting slavery to go into our own free territory than
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  Speaker 1: it would for reviving the African slave trade by law.
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  Speaker 1: The law which forbids the bringing of slaves from Africa
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  Speaker 1: and that which has so long forbidden the taking of
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  Speaker 1: them to Nebraska can hardly be distinguished on any moral principle,
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  Speaker 1: and the repeal of the former could find quite as
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  Speaker 1: plausible excuses as that of the latter. I have reason
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  Speaker 1: to know that Judge Douglas knows that I said this.
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  Speaker 1: I think he has the answer here to one of
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  Speaker 1: the questions he put to me. I do not mean
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  Speaker 1: to allow him to catechise me unless he pays back
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  Speaker 1: for it in kind. I will not answer questions one
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  Speaker 1: after another unless he reciprocates. But as he has made
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  Speaker 1: this inquiry and I have answered it before, he has
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  Speaker 1: got it without my getting anything in return. He has
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  Speaker 1: got my answer on the fugitive slave law. Now, gentlemen,
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  Speaker 1: I don't want to read at any great length, but
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  Speaker 1: this is the true complexion of all I have ever
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  Speaker 1: said in regard to the institution of slavery and the
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  Speaker 1: black race. This is the whole of it. And anything
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  Speaker 1: that argues me into his idea of perfect social and
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  Speaker 1: political equality with a negro is but auspicious and fantastic
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  Speaker 1: arrangement of words by which a man can prove a
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  Speaker 1: horse chestnut to be a chestnut horse. I will say
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  Speaker 1: here while upon this subject, that I have no purpose,
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  Speaker 1: either directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of
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  Speaker 1: slavery in the states where it exists. I believe I
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  Speaker 1: have no lawful right to do so, and I have
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  Speaker 1: no inclination to do so. I have no purpose to
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  Speaker 1: introduce political and social equality between the white and the
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  Speaker 1: black races. There is a physical difference between the two, which,
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  Speaker 1: in my judgment, will probably forever forbid their living together
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  Speaker 1: upon the footing of perfect equality. And inasmuch as it
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  Speaker 1: becomes a necessity that there must be a difference. I
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  Speaker 1: as well as Judge Douglas, am in favor of the
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  Speaker 1: race to which I belong, having the superior position. I
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  Speaker 1: have never said anything to the contrary. But I hold that,
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  Speaker 1: notwithstanding all this, there is no reason in the world
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  Speaker 1: why the negro is not entitled to all the natural
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  Speaker 1: rights enumerated in the Declaration of Independence, the right to life, liberty,
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  Speaker 1: and the pursuit of happiness. I hold that he is
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  Speaker 1: as much a title to these as the white man.
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  Speaker 1: I agree with Judge Douglas. He is not my equal
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  Speaker 1: in many respects, certainly not in color, perhaps not in
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  Speaker 1: moral or intellectual endowment, but in the right to eat
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  Speaker 1: the bread without the leave of anybody else which his
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  Speaker 1: own hand earns. He is my equal, and the equal
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  Speaker 1: of Judge Douglas, and the equal of every living man.
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  Speaker 1: Now I pass on to consider one or two more
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  Speaker 1: of these little follies. The Judge is woefully it fault
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  Speaker 1: about his early friend Lincoln being a grocery keeper. I
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  Speaker 1: don't think that it would be a great sin if
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  Speaker 1: I had been, But he is mistaken. Lincoln never kept
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  Speaker 1: a grocery anywhere in the world. It is true that
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  Speaker 1: Lincoln did work the latter part of one winter in
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  Speaker 1: a little stillhouse up at the head of a hollow.
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  Speaker 1: And so I think, my friend, the judge is equally
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  Speaker 1: at fault when he charges me at the time when
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  Speaker 1: I was in Congress of having opposed our soldiers who
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  Speaker 1: were fighting in the Mexican War. The judge did not
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  Speaker 1: make his charge very distinctly. But I tell you what
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  Speaker 1: he can prove by referring to the record. You remember,
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  Speaker 1: I was an old Whig, and whenever the Democratic Party
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  Speaker 1: tried to get me to vote that the war had
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  Speaker 1: been righteously begun by the President, I would not do that.
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  Speaker 1: But whenever they asked for any money, or land warrants
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  Speaker 1: or anything to pay the soldiers there during all that time,
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  Speaker 1: I gave the same vote that Judge Douglas did. You
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  Speaker 1: can think as you please as to whether that was consistent.
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  Speaker 1: Such is the truth, and the judge has the right
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  Speaker 1: to make all he can out of it. But when he,
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  Speaker 1: by a general charge conveys the idea that I withheld
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  Speaker 1: supplies from the soldiers who were fighting in the Mexican War,
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  Speaker 1: or did anything else to hinder the soldiers, he is
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  Speaker 1: to say the least grossly and altogether mistaken, as a
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  Speaker 1: consultation of the records will prove to him. As I
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  Speaker 1: have not used up so much of my time as
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  Speaker 1: I had supposed, I will dwell a little longer upon
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  Speaker 1: one or two of these minor topics upon which the
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  Speaker 1: Judge has spoken. He has read from my speech in Springfield,
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  Speaker 1: in which I say that a house divided against itself
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  Speaker 1: cannot stand. Does the Judge say it can stand? I
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  Speaker 1: don't know whether he does or not. The Judge does
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  Speaker 1: not seem to be attending to me just now, but
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  Speaker 1: I would like to know if if it is his
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  Speaker 1: opinion that a house divided against itself can stand. If
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  Speaker 1: he does, then there is a question of veracity, not
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  Speaker 1: between him and me, but between the Judge and an
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  Speaker 1: authority of a somewhat higher character. Now, my friends, I
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  Speaker 1: ask your attention to this matter for the purpose of
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  Speaker 1: saying something seriously. I know that the Judge may readily
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  Speaker 1: enough agree with me that the maxim which was put
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  Speaker 1: forth by the Savior is true. But he may allege
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  Speaker 1: that I misapply it. And the Judge has a right
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  Speaker 1: to urge that in my application I do misapply it.
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  Speaker 1: And then I have a right to show that I
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  Speaker 1: do not misapply it. When he undertakes to say that,
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  Speaker 1: because I think this nation, so far as the question
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  Speaker 1: of slavery is concerned, will all become one thing or
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  Speaker 1: all the other, I am in favor of bringing about
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  Speaker 1: a dead uniformity in the various states, in all their institutions,
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  Speaker 1: argues erroneously. The great variety of the local institutions in
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  Speaker 1: the states, springing from differences in the soil, differences in
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  Speaker 1: the face of the country, and in the climate, are
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  Speaker 1: bonds of union. They do not make a house divided
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  Speaker 1: against itself, but they make a house united if they
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  Speaker 1: produce in one section of the country what is called
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  Speaker 1: for by the wants of another section, and this other
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  Speaker 1: section can supply the wants of the first. They are
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  Speaker 1: not matters of discord, but bonds of union, true bonds
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  Speaker 1: of union. But can this question of slavery be considered
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  Speaker 1: as among these varieties in the institutions of the country.
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  Speaker 1: I leave it to you to say whether, in the
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  Speaker 1: history of our government this institution of slavery has not
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  Speaker 1: always failed to be a bond of union, and, on
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  Speaker 1: the contrary, been an apple of discord and an element
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  Speaker 1: of division in the house. I ask you to consider whether,
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  Speaker 1: so long as the moral constitution of men's minds shall
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  Speaker 1: continue to be the same after this generation an assemblage
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  Speaker 1: shall sink into the grave, and another race shall rise
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  Speaker 1: with the same moral and intellectual development. We have Whether,
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  Speaker 1: if that institution is standing in the same irritating position
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  Speaker 1: in which now is, it will not continue an element
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  Speaker 1: of division. If so that, I have a right to
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  Speaker 1: say that in regard to this question, the Union is
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  Speaker 1: a house divided against itself. And when the judge reminds
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  Speaker 1: me that I have often said to him that the
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  Speaker 1: institution of slavery has existed for eighty years in some states,
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  Speaker 1: and yet it does not exist in some others, I
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  Speaker 1: agree to the fact, and I account for it by
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  Speaker 1: looking at the position in which our fathers originally placed it,
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  Speaker 1: restricting it from the new territories where it had not gone,
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  Speaker 1: and legislating to cut off its source by the abrogation
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  Speaker 1: of the slave trade, thus putting the seal of legislation
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  Speaker 1: against it. Spread the public mind did rest in the
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  Speaker 1: belief that it was in the course of ultimate extinction.
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  Speaker 1: But lately I think and in this I charge nothing
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  Speaker 1: on the judge's motives. Lately, I think that he and
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  Speaker 1: those acting with him have placed that institution on a
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  Speaker 1: new basis which looks to the perpetuity and nationalization of slavery.
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  Speaker 1: And while it is placed upon this new basis, I say,
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  Speaker 1: and I have said, that I believe we shall not
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  Speaker 1: have peace upon the question until the opponents of slavery
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  Speaker 1: arrest the further spread of it and place it where
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  Speaker 1: the public mind shall rest in the belief that it
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  Speaker 1: is in the course of ultimate extinction, or on the
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  Speaker 1: other hand, that its advocates will push it forward until
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  Speaker 1: it shall become alike lawful in all the states, old
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  Speaker 1: as well as New, North as well as South. Now,
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  Speaker 1: I believe if we could arrest the spread and place
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  Speaker 1: it where Washington and Jefferson and Madison placed it, it
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  Speaker 1: would be in the course of ultimate extinction, and the
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  Speaker 1: public mind would, as for eighty years past, believe that
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  Speaker 1: it was in the course of ultimate extinction. The crisis
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  Speaker 1: would be passed, and the institution might be let alone
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  Speaker 1: for one hundred years. If it should live so long
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  Speaker 1: in the states where it exists, Yet it would be
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  Speaker 1: going out of existence in the way best for both
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  Speaker 1: the black and the white races a voice. Then do
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  Speaker 1: you repudiate popular sovereignty? Well, then let us talk about
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  Speaker 1: popular sovereignty. What is popular sovereignty is right to the
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  Speaker 1: people to have slavery or not have it as they
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  Speaker 1: see fit in the territories. I will state, and I
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  Speaker 1: have an able man to watch me. My understanding is
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  Speaker 1: that popular sovereignty has now applied to the question of slavery,
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  Speaker 1: does allow the people of a territory to have slavery
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  Speaker 1: if they want to, but does not allow them not
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  Speaker 1: to have it if they do not want it. I
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  Speaker 1: do not mean that if this vast concourse of people
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  Speaker 1: were in a territory of the United States, any one
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  Speaker 1: of them would be obliged to have a slave if
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  Speaker 1: he did not want one. But I do say that,
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  Speaker 1: as I understand the dread Scott decision, if any one
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  Speaker 1: man wants slaves, all the rest have no way of
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  Speaker 1: keeping that one man from holding them. When I made
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  Speaker 1: my speech at Springfield, of which the judge complains and
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  Speaker 1: from which he quotes, I really was not thinking of
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  Speaker 1: the things which he ascribes to me at all. No
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  Speaker 1: thought in the world that I was doing anything to
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  Speaker 1: bring about a war between the free and slave states.
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  Speaker 1: I had no thought in the world that I was
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  Speaker 1: doing anything to bring about a political and social equality
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  Speaker 1: of the black and white races. It never occurred to
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  Speaker 1: me that I was doing anything, or favoring anything to
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  Speaker 1: reduce to a dead uniformity all the local institutions of
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: the various states. But I must say, in all fairness
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: to him, if he thinks I am doing something which
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: leads to these bad results, it is none the better
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: that I did not mean it. It is just as
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: fatal to the country if I have any influence in
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: producing it, whether I intended or not. But can it
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: be true that placing this institution upon the original basis,
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: the basis upon which our fathers placed it, can have
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: any tendency to set the northern and the southern states
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: at war with one another, Or that it can have
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: any tendency to make the people of Vermont raised sugarcane
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: because they raise it in Louisiana, Or that it can
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: compel the people of Illinois to cut pine logs on
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: the Grand Prairie where they will not grow, because they
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: cut pine logs in Maine, where they do grow. The
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: Judge says, this is a new principle started. In regard
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: to this question, does the judge claim that he is
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: working on the plan of the founders of the government.
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: I think he says in some of his speeches, indeed,
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: I have won here now, that he saw evidence of
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: a policy to allow slavery to be south of a
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: certain line, while north of it should be excluded. And
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: he saw an indisposition on the part of the country
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: to stand upon that policy. And therefore he set about
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: studying the subject upon original principles, and upon original principles,
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: he got up the Nebraska Bill. I am fighting it
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: upon these original principles, fighting it in the Jeffersonian, Washingtonian,
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: and Madisonian fashion. And of Lincoln's reply, Part one, recorded
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: by Sheila Blunt