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I Choose...To Choose Me with Tina Knowles · I Choose Me with Jennie Garth

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  Speaker 1: You're listening to I Choose Me with Jenny Garland. Hi, everyone,
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  Speaker 1: welcome to I Choose Me. This podcast is all about
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  Speaker 1: the choices we make and where they lead us. My
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  Speaker 1: guest today grew up in Galveston, Texas, where she was
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  Speaker 1: the youngest of seven children. She became a salon owner,
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  Speaker 1: a fashion designer, and the mother of two female musical powerhouses,
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  Speaker 1: and in recent years she launched the hair care brand
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  Speaker 1: Sacred with one of her daughters. Her incredible memoir, Matriarch,
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  Speaker 1: is out now and it is so interesting to hear
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  Speaker 1: her story. Through this book, she weaves not only the
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  Speaker 1: history of her own family, but historical moments that shaped
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  Speaker 1: the woman she became. I cannot wait to talk with
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  Speaker 1: her all about it. Please welcome Ms. Tina Knowles to
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  Speaker 1: the podcast. Well hello, Beyaure, it is such an honor
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  Speaker 1: to have you here. Your book is so beautifully written.
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  Speaker 2: Well, thank you.
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  Speaker 1: I mean the way you intertwined your own history and
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  Speaker 1: your life journey with the experiences you had growing up
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  Speaker 1: during the civil rights movement, as well as sharing the
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  Speaker 1: racism you and your family are endured and all the
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  Speaker 1: hardships that you all overcame. You painted such a vivid
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  Speaker 1: picture for me as a reader, and it was truly
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  Speaker 1: an honor to read it.
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  Speaker 2: Thank you so much.
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  Speaker 1: I mean it. One of the things that I loved
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  Speaker 1: about your memoir was being able to take a look
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  Speaker 1: into your past, your parents' past, your aunts, and your
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  Speaker 1: uncle's really sharing so much about the family that made
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  Speaker 1: you who you are. It was very interesting to me.
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  Speaker 1: I have to be honest, being the youngest child, I
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  Speaker 1: feel like you learned so much by observing your older
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  Speaker 1: sisters and your brother's life choices. But you were kind
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  Speaker 1: of your own thing. You were a tenacious little girl
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  Speaker 1: and so beautifully curious. You had a strength in you
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  Speaker 1: from the very beginning, which I identified with. You describe a
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  Speaker 1: defining moment with the mean nuns at your school when
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  Speaker 1: you stood up for yourself and you said, I belong
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  Speaker 1: wherever I want to be.
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  Speaker 2: That.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, that made me get the goosies. To have that
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  Speaker 1: kind of confidence in that voice at such a young
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  Speaker 1: age like that. Do you think that you got that
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  Speaker 1: from your mom and the women before her in your life,
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  Speaker 1: or do you really feel like you learned so much
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  Speaker 1: of that from your siblings.
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  Speaker 2: I think that for me, honestly, my mother was not
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  Speaker 2: the most outspoken person. But but I know that I
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  Speaker 2: have that lineage because of both of my great grandmothers
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  Speaker 2: were slaves, but they managed to keep their family together
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  Speaker 2: and a time when you know, families were totally separated.
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  Speaker 2: And so although I never got to meet them or
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  Speaker 2: talk to them or whatever, I would imagine that that
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  Speaker 2: fighting spirit was there, just passed down from generation to generation.
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  Speaker 2: And that the other thing that I've often thought, because sometimes,
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  Speaker 2: you know, I talked to people about my history with
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  Speaker 2: the nuns and how I stood up to them as
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  Speaker 2: much as I could be in a five year old
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  Speaker 2: and not really being greatly protected by my mother because
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  Speaker 2: she was I just felt like she was a little
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  Speaker 2: brainwashed by the Catholic religion. And I also was born
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  Speaker 2: to forty four year old parents, and talking to my siblings,
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  Speaker 2: They're like, you got away with murder. I think that
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  Speaker 2: was tired. They were trying my mama.
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  Speaker 1: That's so true with the baby of a family. They
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  Speaker 1: get away with so much.
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  Speaker 2: I would talk back all the time, and you know,
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  Speaker 2: I was like, that's how I got the name badass
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  Speaker 2: teen to b because older people. I was having a
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  Speaker 2: conversation with my friend Holly pet and she was saying,
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  Speaker 2: you know, when I was a kid, no adults like me.
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  Speaker 2: I was like, that's an understatement for me. They would
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  Speaker 2: be like that little teeny has got the smartest mouth.
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  Speaker 2: But thank God for that because it gave me the
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  Speaker 2: ability to fight these nuns and for them not to
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  Speaker 2: kill my spirit, because they told me constantly, you have
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  Speaker 2: an evil spirit, and we're going to take that spirit down.
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  Speaker 2: We're gonna you know, like they were helping me because
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  Speaker 2: I was like, you know, evil or whatever, and I
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  Speaker 2: was only five years old. I didn't even know what
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  Speaker 2: they were talking about. But I did know that when
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  Speaker 2: they told me these other things about me, that I
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  Speaker 2: had to fight them. And it's prepared me for my
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  Speaker 2: whole life because I've been fighting my whole life fighting.
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  Speaker 2: I'm seventy one years old and I still have to
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  Speaker 2: fight all the time for respect sometimes, you know.
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  Speaker 1: Yep, yep. I can definitely relate. While you were writing
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  Speaker 1: this book, did you let your daughters read anything early
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  Speaker 1: on so you could get their feedback? Well?
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  Speaker 2: I didn't, But what I did do is I gathered
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  Speaker 2: together all of their parts and I sent them to
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  Speaker 2: them to listen to on voice and actually the guy
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  Speaker 2: Kevin O'Leary, who became like family to me, who helped
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  Speaker 2: me write the book. He did all the fact checking
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  Speaker 2: and you know the things that good writers do. He
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  Speaker 2: did it in his voice, and I sent it to
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  Speaker 2: them and they were able to tell me if they approved,
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  Speaker 2: and if they didn't approve. I wouldn't have put it
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  Speaker 2: in a book because I verified, like always terrified to
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  Speaker 2: write a book and to tell somebody else's story. I
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  Speaker 2: don't want to do that, you know, have their story
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  Speaker 2: to tell themselves, especially when my kids, because there's been
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  Speaker 2: so many crazy mrs and craziness that's been out there,
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  Speaker 2: you know, really wanted them to approve.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I can imagine. I'm a mother of three daughters too,
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  Speaker 1: and I value my position as a mother more than
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  Speaker 1: any accomplishment I think I've ever had or will have.
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  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, what do you think the biggest blessing is when
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  Speaker 1: it comes to having daughters?
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  Speaker 2: Oh? God, it's the best. I mean, you get to
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  Speaker 2: watch them grow and learn, and they teach you things
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  Speaker 2: every day. I'm sure you're teaching you things every day,
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  Speaker 2: and you get to kind of get a you know,
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  Speaker 2: just all the things that you know as a kid
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  Speaker 2: and growing up that affected you. Adversely, you get to
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  Speaker 2: not do those things to your daughters. How amazing is that?
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  Speaker 1: So?
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  Speaker 2: I think, you know, they teach me things every day.
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  Speaker 2: I'm learning things from my daughters, always has as they
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  Speaker 2: were kids. They taught me so much too, So I
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  Speaker 2: just think it's the best if in the world. Too.
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  Speaker 2: I thought I wanted a boy, but I'm just so
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  Speaker 2: happy that God blessed me with those girls.
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  Speaker 1: You know what, I thought I was going to have
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  Speaker 1: three boys really from when I was a little girl,
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  Speaker 1: and I turned out having three girls, and I'm so grateful.
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  Speaker 1: I don't know what I would do with a boy.
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  Speaker 2: I know same, you.
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  Speaker 1: Have grandsons, sons more than grandsons.
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  Speaker 2: I had grandsons and one of them is twenty and
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  Speaker 2: he is a joy to have around. He actually I
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  Speaker 2: got the pleasure of he's been living with me for
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  Speaker 2: the last couple of years. Nice, and you know, it's
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  Speaker 2: been new for me because, like you said, I don't
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  Speaker 2: really I haven't been around boys that much. And even
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  Speaker 2: from when he was a little kid, I kept him
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  Speaker 2: a lot, and it was totally different with a boy.
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  Speaker 2: I didn't know what I was doing. I imagine it's
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  Speaker 2: joyful as well. But I'm glad I gave me girls didoh.
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  Speaker 1: I loved in your book how you acknowledge that you
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  Speaker 1: didn't want the lounge to be overshadowed by Beyonce's music
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  Speaker 1: career when it was first starting out. And I think
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  Speaker 1: that that feeling is universal for moms, and I can
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  Speaker 1: really relate to that, not only as a mom, but
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  Speaker 1: also as a daughter who broke into fame and had
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  Speaker 1: my own feelings about overshadowing my sisters. How did you
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  Speaker 1: manage that and how do you make all of your
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  Speaker 1: kids feel equally loved and equally supported.
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  Speaker 2: I think the first thing is that you have to
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  Speaker 2: see the differences in them. My kids are so you know,
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  Speaker 2: I claim Kelly Rowland as my daughter as well, and
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  Speaker 2: you know, all three of them couldn't have been more different.
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  Speaker 2: And I think looking at each kid as an individual
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  Speaker 2: and not just lumping them because you know, I'm the
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  Speaker 2: youngest of seven. Sister had eight children. So I remember
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  Speaker 2: my sister spending group time with her kids. You know,
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  Speaker 2: she used to call them Lena, Denise, Tommy, Rnney she
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  Speaker 2: you know, she had so many kids she would call
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  Speaker 2: them all the names. Oh you know who I mean.
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  Speaker 2: And my mom used to get so upset about that,
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  Speaker 2: and she would say, you can't do that. Your kids
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  Speaker 2: are individuals and you have to look at them as
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  Speaker 2: different kids. Don't ever do that. And she was like, yeah,
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  Speaker 2: that's because you don't have all these kids fair steps.
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  Speaker 2: But I learned that very early to look at my
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  Speaker 2: kids as individuals and not to you know, Beyonce was
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  Speaker 2: like this little superstar and by the time she was
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  Speaker 2: eight or nine years old performing everywhere, and Solange was
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  Speaker 2: came along and was just as talented, but she didn't
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  Speaker 2: have that experience, and so I didn't want that. I
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  Speaker 2: started seeing Beyonce being irritated by her and not being
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  Speaker 2: so nice to her little sister her because she had
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  Speaker 2: this group around her and other friends and they would
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  Speaker 2: all say be quiet Solange, and Solange would be trying
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  Speaker 2: to boss everybody around and teach them the choreography and
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  Speaker 2: make up steps, and they were like, you are sick,
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  Speaker 2: sit down and be quiet, and Beyonce was not all
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  Speaker 2: of a sudden, not defending her. So it scared me.
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  Speaker 2: So I got them in therapy really early on so
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  Speaker 2: that they could learn. Beyonce could be learned to be
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  Speaker 2: sensitive to what her sister was going through and for
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  Speaker 2: Solange to be respectful of her big sister, and you know,
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  Speaker 2: they've been close every since. I was terrified of there
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  Speaker 2: being a divide with them close. Yeah definitely.
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  Speaker 1: I mean you said you put the girls in therapy
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  Speaker 1: at one point. I'm a huge advocate for mental health
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  Speaker 1: and therapy, so I commend you for that, especially back
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  Speaker 1: then during a time when it wasn't that widely accepted.
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  Speaker 2: No, and my family was not very happy about it.
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  Speaker 2: They kept saying, you are crazy, you know, so weird
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  Speaker 2: and why are you doing this? And even my husband
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  Speaker 2: didn't complain about it, but he didn't really I don't
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  Speaker 2: think he really believed in it. So I just said,
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  Speaker 2: I'm going to do it myself. I don't need a
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  Speaker 2: team of people to do this. I'm going to find
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  Speaker 2: a therapist and I'm gonna get my kids in therapy.
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  Speaker 2: And it was the best move I could have ever made.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, because what's so important to me is that
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  Speaker 1: when I'm gone, that they have each other and they're
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  Speaker 1: not just sisters, but they're friends.
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  Speaker 2: You know, how old are your girls?
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  Speaker 1: My oldest is twenty seven. I have a twenty two
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  Speaker 1: year old and.
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  Speaker 2: A twenty year old oven yourself girl.
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  Speaker 1: Hah good, I love that. Thank you.
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: How old is the youngest? Eighteen eighteen? Why you got
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  Speaker 2: grown girls?
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  Speaker 1: I do? I'm almost free. How did you see though,
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  Speaker 1: your girl's benefit from having therapy at such a young age,
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  Speaker 1: because I definitely had some times when my girls were
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  Speaker 1: in therapy too.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. I saw the benefit immediately. With all of a sudden,
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  Speaker 2: Beyonce understood her that her little sister, what she was
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  Speaker 2: going through. She just became so much more protective and
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  Speaker 2: sensitive because that's how they were. She was so happy
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  Speaker 2: to have a little sister, and she was such a
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  Speaker 2: great big sister. And then around ten, when she got
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  Speaker 2: in the singing group, it was like, you know, a
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  Speaker 2: five year old taking your stuff and coming in and
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  Speaker 2: butting in and tagging along, and it made her more sensitive.
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  Speaker 2: And as she became more sensitive to Solange, Solange felt
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  Speaker 2: like she didn't have to do so much to get
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  Speaker 2: her attention, and they just got to be close and
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  Speaker 2: protective of each other and they still are today. So
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  Speaker 2: it worked.
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  Speaker 1: I'm so happy that you did that. Honestly, before reading
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  Speaker 1: your book, I knew that you had had a successful
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  Speaker 1: career in fashion industry. You were known for making such beautiful,
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  Speaker 1: gorgeous outfits for Destiny's Child and then your fashion line,
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: House of Darien. But I didn't know that being a
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  Speaker 1: seamstress ran so deeply in your family.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, from generations after generations. You know, everyone in my family,
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  Speaker 2: both my sisters sewed that could really sew, and it's
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  Speaker 2: it's our legacy and it's the thing that I think
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  Speaker 2: kept us from you know, I grew up really poor,
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  Speaker 2: but when you have a skill like sewing or doing
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  Speaker 2: hair or something like that, you never broke. That's what
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  Speaker 2: my mama's philosophy was, and it was very true, because
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  Speaker 2: you can always make money.
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  Speaker 1: So true. And I think sewing is sort of a
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  Speaker 1: dying art. I know, my mom taught me how to
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  Speaker 1: make pies, and I taught my daughters how to make pies,
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  Speaker 1: and I feel like nobody knows how to make pies anymore.
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  Speaker 1: And it's kind of the same. I know how to sew,
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  Speaker 1: and I've taught my daughters how to sew, but I
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  Speaker 1: don't feel like other people know how to sew anymore.
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  Speaker 2: And you know, it's funny because even with stylist, I
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  Speaker 2: was a stylist, but I also was a seamstress, so
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  Speaker 2: I know the construction of clothes. I know how they're
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  Speaker 2: supposed to fit. And I was always surprised that I
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  Speaker 2: would get stylist and they wouldn't even know how to
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  Speaker 2: put him in.
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  Speaker 1: No, they pin it. They barely know how to pin things. Sometimes.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I like double stick, but it's only there for
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  Speaker 2: so long.
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  Speaker 1: No, it doesn't work forever. Choosing to share your life
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  Speaker 1: with the world is a very brave decision. I'm curious
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  Speaker 1: as you were going back through the moments of your life,
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  Speaker 1: what were the things that were harder for you to
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  Speaker 1: relive than others.
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  Speaker 2: The pain of losing my mom, my dad, my best
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  Speaker 2: friend Johnny. Those are hard, you know. I just finished
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  Speaker 2: I did that the audio book. Yeah, and I tell
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  Speaker 2: you that there was so many tears. I'm like, Tina,
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  Speaker 2: you've read this book, I don't know how many times,
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: and you're still crying. You know. Those were the hardest
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  Speaker 2: things to talk about and to talk about that experience
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: and not feel so sad and so empty. When it
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: came to just losing the people that I love, it
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  Speaker 2: definitely was the hardest part.
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  Speaker 1: I know that reading the audio version of the book
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: can bring up so much. How many days did you
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  Speaker 1: take to do your recording.
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: I think it took me like three weeks, but not
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: every day all day. Some days were long, some was shorter,
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  Speaker 2: and some days got so emotional for me that I
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: had to stop, you know, because I'm like, they don't
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  Speaker 2: want you to have the emotion in the book. They're like, Okay,
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: blow your nose and you know, clear your throat and
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  Speaker 2: drink something. So they don't really want you to have
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  Speaker 2: that voice of emotion. But I actually wanted my book
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  Speaker 2: to have that would have been okay with me.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I would think so. I mean, because I feel
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  Speaker 1: you mentioned the loss of your mom and your dad
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  Speaker 1: and Johnny. I feel like I know them because you
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  Speaker 1: wrote about them so vividly.
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  Speaker 2: That's a that's a that's a real compliment.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I do. Were there was there ever a point
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  Speaker 1: when you were writing the book that you thought, oh,
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  Speaker 1: this is too much. I'm not I'm not sure that
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  Speaker 1: being this open with the world is a good idea.
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  Speaker 2: All the time. And another thing is this book had
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: a thousand pages, and they were like, Lucina, you gotta
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: make this book five. Nobody's gonna read a thousand page book,
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  Speaker 2: And so I had to go in and take a lot.
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  Speaker 2: And it's so much that I had to take out
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: that I thought was so great, But a lot of
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: things I was I was relieved to take them out
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: because this is scary. This is like a baby, you know,
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  Speaker 2: I know that, you know some people are you know
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  Speaker 2: they're going to use things to try to tear you apart.
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  Speaker 2: You know, it's just the nature of the beast. And
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  Speaker 2: it's very scary for me. And I'm being such a
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  Speaker 2: private person and from a private family. This is a lot.
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  Speaker 1: A lot is a lot. It is a lot. I mean,
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  Speaker 1: you were really open in the book. You talk about
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  Speaker 1: the ups and the downs of your first marriage and
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  Speaker 1: how you chose to not be dependent on him. I
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  Speaker 1: think Beyonce was already born and you were pregnant with Solange,
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: and you had that moment when you said to yourself,
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  Speaker 1: You'll have to be your own boss.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, because I knew that I was not cut out. Two.
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  Speaker 2: I don't know how to say this without sounding ob noxious,
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: but like I knew I couldn't go and worked for
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: somebody at that time in my life. It was too
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: much going on and I had to be in charge
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  Speaker 2: of my life. I was so out of charge with
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: everything else that I had to be in charge of
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: my destiny, you know, in my job, and I knew
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: I wanted to have a hair salon, but I couldn't
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: go work for somebody else first, and I didn't. I
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: went straight into my own salon, which I wouldn't suggest
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: to anybody else. But it worked for me. It worked
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  Speaker 2: for me because when I was in beauty school, I
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: already built my clientele. I had been planning and planning,
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: and I had a great plan and it worked. But
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: it doesn't work for everybody.
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: Right, Do you feel like you got lucky in some respects?
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  Speaker 2: I was blessed that God opened up a door for
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: me and he made it all work smooth, because when
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: I told the story in the book, I was like,
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: you had a lot of nerves, Like you had a
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: lot of nerve to go open the salon and you
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: didn't have like you didn't have enough clientele. You didn't
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: have you had never worked for another salon, and you
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: had the audacity to say, I'm not going to work
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: for anybody else. I'm gonna open my own business. And
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: it worked.
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: It did work, Missina. This is crazy because my mom
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: when I was younger, a little girl growing up in Illinois.
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: She had a very similar sounding path to you in
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: the respect that she knew she needed to take control
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: of her life and she opened up a hair salon
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: just like you.
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: You're kidding me.
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: No, it's just all coming back to me as a
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: little girl. I would go to work with her in
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: her salon. It was called Cobets that was in a
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: very small town in rural Illinois, and I would go
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: and just play with all the brushes and paint my
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: nails all the way up to my wrists, you know,
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: and play with every thing in there. It was such
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: a cool way to grow up.
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it is. I mean, my kids have great memories
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: of that. Not only you know that part of it,
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: but like I'm sure you remember the camaraderie that was
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: the salon, because that's been such a you know, anytime
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: they interview my kids, they'll talk about that time in
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: that salon and how empowering it was to them to
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: see these professional women from all walks of life and
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: just them getting along. And it took away all of
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: that competitiveness that some girls have that they can't trust
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: other women, and you can trust the most if you
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: you know, but they didn't. They don't experience competing. My girls,
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: they compete with themselves, and that's because they saw that
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: camaraderie in that salon. So I wouldn't trade it for
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: anything in the world. I think it's a great way
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: for kids to grow up seeing that.
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: Yes, you talked also about that in your book. It
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: just reminded me you talked about when they I think
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: it was Beyonce if I'm not mistaken. She was doing
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: a pageant and you told her to not be competitive
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: with other girls, to only compete with herself.
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: Because I mean, you're going to waste all your energy
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: on someone else and being jealous to them or trying
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: to be them, and not spend that time focusing on
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: getting better at what you do. It's the truth. I
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: mean I live by that every day, like I just
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: want everybody to win. It just helps me to win,
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: absolutely absolute.
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: Back to what we were talking about before about in
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: your marriage, knowing that you needed to take control. I
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: just that is such a powerful message to women listening
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: to this today, knowing your worth when you're not being
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: valued in a relationship. Why do you think it's so
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: important for women to retain independence in a relationship or
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: in a marriage.
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: Well, I think it's important because in those five years
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: that I was not putting down being a housewife of
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: being you know, a mother, but I lost touch with
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: so much of myself. Like when you have a kid
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: and that's your life and that's your best friend, you know,
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: your vocabulary shrinks you. You know, your life is different.
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't go a lot of places because I didn't
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: want to leave my daughter with anyone, and b'sed out
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: on so much of the outside world. That's a part
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: of it. But also just for me, which is a
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: tricky situation because even though I got myself together financially,
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: and I never have been in a position since that
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: day to depend on a man to take care of me.
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: I've never been in that position ever again since then.
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: But what I didn't do is have the courage to leave.
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: So once he got better and we went to counseling
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: and our relationship got better, I was like, Oh, this
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: is gonna work, you know. So I didn't do so
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: good with that lesson. I kind of went back and
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: forth with that one. But what I did know is
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: that you have to have your own life and I've
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: always had my life. I've always had my priorities out
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: since that time. I've always had girlfriends that surround me,
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: and you know, nothing can come between us. And once
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: you got your crew, then you know you got all
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: the power in the world. You can do anything.
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's support net so important. Like you said, it
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: took you many years to leave your first marriage.
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: Many years, thirty three years, thirty three years. Yeah, all
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: of that time was not bad time. There were long
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: periods of great times. And that's how you know I
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: was able to stay for that long because it you know,
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: it wasn't all bad and he would protect them. I
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: had never been protected in my life, really protected the
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: way I was protected in that And sometimes you kind
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: of confused that with and there was always love there.
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: It wasn't about love. It was just about you know,
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: whatever created that situation where you know, my husband just
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: had a problem with infidelity.
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it took you that many years to leave your marriage.
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: What advice would you give to women listening right now
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: who are contemplating leaving a marriage.
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: Well, I think you should do all you can to
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: work through it. But you know, I don't believe at
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: this point in my life at seventy one. It took
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: me a long time to come to the conclusion that
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: if you are not happy, that for whatever reason, you're
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: staying for me right now in my life is not enough.
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: What I realized after I got a divorce was that
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: I never would stay in a marriage that wasn't fulfilling me,
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: and that I wasn't a top priorady in I wouldn't be,
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: you know, staying a marriage that was unhappy or unfulfilled.
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: And but you know, I got a lot of nerves
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: saying that, because when I made this observation, I was
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: sixty years old. And so I did get remarried, and
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: you know, for a time it was great. I married
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: one of my really good friends and it was great.
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: But when I felt like it wasn't good for me
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: and it wasn't ever going to be what I need
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: for me, it didn't take me long to make the
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: decision to get out of it. And my reaction to
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: it was very, very different from the first time. The
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: first time, I was like so sad, and so you know,
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: this time, you know, I just got out there and
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: lived my life, and I feel like I'm not only
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: did I survive, but I thrived. I'm thriving.
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: Now you are thriving.
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: I had that. I'm seventy. By the time I got
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: that message, I was like sixty nine years old.
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: I know, but you got it.
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: That's all the matters that are late than never, right exactly.
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: I mean, I think you know, I've certainly experienced as
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: I've turned fifty and have gone in my fifties. Here
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: there's such a different mindset, and I cannot wait for
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: my sixties and my seventies because the significant difference I
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: notice in myself. I'm so proud of it, like I
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: feel like I've grown so much.
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's a great example for your daughters, right, Yeah,
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: for sure.
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: And just at the right time too, because when they
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: were littler, they didn't even understand what I was going through,
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: or the work that it took, or the pain that
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: was exchanged. You know, they didn't see any of that,
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: or at least I tried to show them, yes exactly.
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: But now as young adults, they really see like my
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: work ethic differently, they see the things that I've made priorities,
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: and I think that it lands so differently on them now.
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: Sure they are very proud of you.
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: Yes, and I'm sure yours are very proud of you too.
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: One of the last chapters in your book is called
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: Choosing Me. Obviously I love that, and you talk about
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: your decision to leave your second marriage. You say in
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: the book, as you were sort of alluding to before,
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: if I stayed in this relationship, I would never feel
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: whole loved, cherished and respected and seen. Nothing else in
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: the marriage matters if you are not first priority with
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: each other. There was also the pressure of being an
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: example for so many people who hoped to find a
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: second chance at love. But I had to choose, and
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: I chose me.
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because you know, you stay sometimes in situations because
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: especially when you're in a public guy like this, it's
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: a lot of pressure on you. Because I can't tell
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: you how many times people told me, oh my god,
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: you were my hope, you know, because they were over
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: sixty and they just felt like they could find love.
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: And my ex was you know, I've known him for
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: forty years, his sister was my best friend, and that
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: he's a great guy. It's just that together we were
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: not suited for each other. Well after a time, we
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: just didn't bring out the best in each other. And
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: I think that if you don't bring out the best
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: in each other, then you you know, it's no reason
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: to stay together.
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: I mean, I've been divorced twice. I know it's not easy.
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: It's not easy, especially in the public eye. Looking back. Now,
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: how has your life been positively impacted by you choosing yourself?
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: Well, it's positive because I focus on you know, because
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: I'm surrounded by love every day. I'm surrounded by people
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: that are when I walk into a room, they get
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: excited and happy. That's choosing me. I'm choosing myself over
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: someone else. And I'm choosing my happiness and my fulfillment.
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: And you know, why shouldn't you walk into a room
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: at seventy one years old and somebody is happy to
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: see you? Oh yeah, and that when when they talk
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: to me and I talk to them, that we bring
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: out the very best in each other. Like that's a choice.
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, you allow it in and you receive it and
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: then it just projects.
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: How do you feel about love today? Do you think
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: you want to find it again?
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: I would love to find love again. I'm a hopeless
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: romantic love But again, I want to make sure that
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: if I don't find it, I know I will be
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: just fine's. And you know, I say in the book
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: that that's unfortunate that I had to be sixty nine,
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: seventy years old before I realized that I am enough
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: by myself, that I have so many people that love me.
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: It doesn't have to be a man. You know. I'm
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: so loved by so many people, and I love myself,
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: you know, for the I think I've always had a
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: love for myself, but was our first already know, but
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: I am at least at the top of my priorities,
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: you know, where I wasn't before. I was like way
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: down the list, right.
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: What do you say to people who when we talk
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: about choosing ourselves, I hear sometimes that maybe that's selfish,
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: or you know, you're not thinking for your family anymore.
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: What do you say to those people?
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: I say that my kids are forty three and forty
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: four and thirty seven, and they are grown and got
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: their own lives, and I don't feel selfish at all.
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: I give so much to so many people. There's no
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: way I would consider myself selfish. So I don't care
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: whether you know about that hoy that says that doesn't
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: know me.
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: Matter, No, they don't even matter.
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: I think it's so interesting too what you said earlier
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: about when you were a mom, a young mom, and
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: how you felt like you lost yourself. I think that's
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: just like the way it is for the mom.
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: It is because think about it. You wake up every
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: day and what's your first priority? Your kids got gotta
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: bathe them, You gotta you know, if they go get
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: a little boo boo on them, they act like it's
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: the end of the world, and you gotta, oh my god,
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: you know what. It takes all of your energy and
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: you know, and it's the best thing in the world.
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: It's beautiful. But also you are not your first priority,
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: and you don't know, you don't have Like I didn't
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: have a road map of what to do and what
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: not to do. So what I chose to do was
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: everything she wanted to do. Whatever about me, are taking
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: care of me or to go take that day and
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: have a massage and get a facial and do those things.
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: That wasn't even an objective for me and all of
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: my focus and all all of my life. And that's
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: not a bad thing, but it's also not the greatest
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: thing for you either, because if I had it to
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: do all over again, I would have asked for help
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: from other people, people that I trusted with my kid,
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: because I didn't trust anybody. You know, it's a funny
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: story in there about me asking my sister to keep
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: telling my sister that I'm gonna let her keep Beyonce.
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: Why I go on this trip for a couple of days.
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: Excuse really, you know hard baby? And my husband says
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: to me, come go to the South padre Islan, you
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: can be on the beach. You need who looks so tired?
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: You need two days? And I was like, well, I
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: got to take the baby, and he said no, no, no, no,
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: that's the idea is for you to get some rest
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: and really sleep. And so I called my sister and
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: I'm like, hi, I got a surprise for you. I'm
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: gonna let you keep my baby. And my sister was like,
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: let me keep your baby. Will I keep your baby?
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: And I'm like, no, I'm gonna let you keep her,
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: and you know, she was like, girls, ain't doing me
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: no favor. And so then I called my oldest sister
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: and I said, I can't stand her. Sometimes. I thought
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: I was gonna let her keep my baby, and sheep
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: said I don't care about keeping your baby. And my
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: sister started laughing and she's like, teenie, this is your
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: first baby. It is not a privilege and honor to
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: keep your baby. That baby is just the baby. Everybody
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: got a bunch of kids like that baby ain't nothing special.
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: And I was like what. I was like, goodbye, that's
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: your first baby, that's right. But I went down the
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: line until I found somebody who just thought of it
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: as a big honor to and they probably didn't, but
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: they humored me. You know, you think that your baby
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: is the you know, that's like a world shattering event,
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: and that's what you do is you put everything into
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: it and you don't give yourself much. So I just
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: think with new mothers, they got a better handle these days.
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: They will take that baby and them to somebody that
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: they trust and go and take care of themselves. That
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: you don't just read little children's books every day, that
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: you take the time to read a novel or go
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: to a movie and talk to an adult, right, you know,
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: your vocabulary doesn't evolve around my little pony. So true.
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: I mean, if anything, young moms take it from us
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: who lost ourselves completely, gave ourselves completely to our children.
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: I mean I felt like for all of my twenties,
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: all of my thirties, I was a mom first and foremost,
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: and I loved it. But you're right, like, if I
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: could have done it again, I probably would have taken
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: some more time for myself. I would have felt more
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: comfortable leaving them with other people who I knew loved them,
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: and I would have focused a little bit more on
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: making myself whole because I probably would have been a
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: better mom.
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, a a better wife, better wife now
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: because you're not you can't be your very I remember
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: just you know, my children always taken you know, I
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: don't care what was going on with my husband. If
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: my kids had a little bobo, I was just all
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: on it and not paying any attention. So it's a
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: one of the things I would have done differently in
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: that space as well.
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so interesting to look back on my marriage
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: to my girl's dad and see those moments where I
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: should could have should have been more attentive to his
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: needs and to our relationship, and maybe things would have
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: ended up differently.
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: True.
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, now I know that being a mom and a
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: grandmother also means being a protector and time and time again,
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: people have come for your family. How do you continue
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: to protect your family when the entire world knows who
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: you are, they think they know who you are? How
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: do you protect your grandchildren who are born into this life.
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: I just do the best I can do. But what
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: I have come to realize is that I can only
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: protect them so much and that I don't make it
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: my responsibility as much as I used to, like anytime
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: somebody said something that was untrue by my kids. You know,
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: the first I'm a mama bear and I'm going to
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: go for you and I want the truth to be
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: out there. And you know, it's not always best for
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: my kids. The outcome is not always best for them.
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: So I have really tried to work hard on just
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: controlling the things that I can, and that is blocking
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: out as much of the negativity as I can for
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: as long as I can, because sometimes I can control it.
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: My fingers just scope I'm on that you know post,
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: in that post to let somebody have it because they're lying,
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: because you know, I understand that we're public figures and
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: it comes along with the territory. I had an interview
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: and the lady on there asked me something very inappropriate,
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: and I asked her, why would you do that? You
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: know why we've had such a nice conversation. Why would
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: you do that? And she said, because you're a public
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: figure and I could ask you whatever I want to
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: ask you. So basically the thought process is that because
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: you have you're a public figure, that the sky's the limit.
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: I could just ask you anything, and you just got
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: to put up with my crap. And you know that's
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: not true, I mean, and I said to her, I
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: took the time to I had time that day, as
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: they say, And I said, I'm a human being, and
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: how would you feel if I asked you that question
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: that you just asked me? And she said, well, I said,
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: because you're a public figure too, you know you're interviewing me,
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: So how would you feel if I did that to you?
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: And I think that she thought about it and she apologized.
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: And you know, that's all we can do is try
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: to educate people on the fact that we are human
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: beings and that my grandchildren especially, I'm ready to fight, yeah,
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: because they has to be in this, you know, yeah, exactly,
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: So I think kids should be off limits. But I
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: just do the best I can do.
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: Well, this book will undoubtedly leave a legacy for your grandchildren.
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: What is one lesson you hope your grandkids take away
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: from you or this book? Even?
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: I think a couple of things. One is that to
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: treat people the way you want to be treated that
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: is just as easy to be kind. You know. That's
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: really really key with me. And then I think the
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: second thing is that when it's all said and done,
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: if you have your family, the rest of that don't matter.
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: You know. I feel, honestly it sounds like a cliche,
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: but if I lost every single monetary thing that I
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: have in my life, if I have my family, my crew,
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna be fine.
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: You'll be fine.
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: I can get through it. And that's just the truth.
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: That's a sign of a good family and a good
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: mama right there. Okay, I really think that this book
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: needs to be a movie. Who was gonna play you?
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: I love this young actress. Her name is Andre Day.
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: I don't know. There's something in her that's a quiet
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: storm or just somebody that I feel is so strong,
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: but they don't have to always be the center of attention.
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: And I don't know, it's just so much about her
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: that resonates with me. And who I am and who
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: I was at her age, and so I would love for,
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: you know, for her to play me.
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: I'm sure she would love it too, I know if.
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: You're familiar with her, but she played Billie Holiday. Yes,
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: she killed that. She's wonderful beautiful too.
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: Well, you know we always pick somebody cute.
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, come on, they have to represent before I
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: let you go, Miss Tina Knowles, what was your last
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: I choose me moment?
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: Probably doing this book, you know, putting this book out,
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: because all along making the decision to do this book
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: was definitely I choose me moment because I'm still you know,
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's scary. Yeah, And it was hard this book.
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: Writing this book was really hard emotionally. I had to
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: relive a lot of stuff that you know, was very
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: painful for me. And so I think and I kept saying, Oh,
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: everybody's gonna be mad at me. You know, the Catholic
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: Church is going to be mad at me, the hospital
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: is gonna be mad at me. My kids are gonna
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: be mad at me. You know, my exes are going
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: to be mad at me. And at the end, I said,
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: this is my story, and I'm choosing me.
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I got goose bumps again. I'm so excited for
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: everybody to read this beautiful book. If nothing else, just
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: have it on your shelf. Your cover is so gorgeous.
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: You thank you so much, I mean, next level.
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: Thank you so I wish you all the best and
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: such an honor to have you on the show. Thank you.
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: It's an honor to talk to you too. And I
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: really enjoyed this conversation. I'm so glad it was great.
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: Good Okay, I'm so glad.
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: Thank you, good luck, thank you
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: Thank you, Bye bye.