Latest / Beyond The Trailhead / Aarn Packs CEO Daniel Farber | Beyond the Trailhead Podcast Ep. 23

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Aarn Packs CEO Daniel Farber | Beyond the Trailhead Podcast Ep. 23 · Beyond The Trailhead

• speaker-0: Alright everyone, welcome back to Beyond the Trailhead. This week we've got an incredible guest all the way from New Zealand, ⁓ the owner of Arn, Daniel Farber. Daniel, how are you doing? speaker-1: I'm going well, thank you. speaker-0: I don't know why I feel like I'm yelling just because you're far away, but I know that you're not far away. We're digitally really, really close. ⁓ but yeah, thanks for being on. ⁓ I did get the chance to try on your packs ⁓ at a conference and kind of fell in love with the comfort of it and the functionality of it. And I thought it'd be just great for people to one, hear the story of the brand, you know, like we always chat on Beyond the Trailhead, but also just kind of how you came into the business and just how Arn is. It's just such a unique pack that I just before we got on, I was saying how once you try an Arn pack on, you're really sold on the comfort and functionality of it. So I guess just go ahead and go into ⁓ Arn and the company and how you became what you are. speaker-1: Okay, cool, yep. So we are the second owners of the brand. ⁓ Arne is actually the name of the chap who started the brand. Yeah. And I think we're over 20 years old at this point. And he's one of these ⁓ inventors, designers, and he basically from ⁓ university days started making his own gear. Yeah. Got into the, we call it tramping here. I've got a switch between tramping and backpacking. Yeah. I'm just, yeah. Okay. Multilingual. But anyway, he got into backpacking here early days and started making his own gear. And so he just became a designer. went off around the world and mainly in the UK, he worked as a designer for some, big brands over there for years. And then he's one of these guys, he's was just something in his mind. He just keeps working on it and working on it and working on it. And He wanted to create a pack that is super comfortable and that carries a load better than anything else out there. Yeah. And so Arnpacks now is like a combination of everything that was too far or too much to sell to another brand. Yeah. So anything he thought of and he just was dying to do, he came back to New Zealand and started the company and made these crazy packs that have all these moving parts and all that sort of stuff. And that's kind of like how it all got started. So the brand itself, you want me go into like how they work a little bit, I suppose? speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, I guess how did it go from being Arn's Arn to Daniel's Arn? Okay. speaker-1: Cool. So originally I'm from the US, you know, I've always been into outdoor stuff. You know, started in high school backpacking and all that stuff. I got into rock climbing, kayaking. I found, you know, a friend had gone off to university all of a sudden. I was like lost. What am I going to do? I was not a good student at all. So I ended up doing this like Parks and Recreation Management degree, you know, and so just always that's led onto environmental stuff in way. So I used to work for environmental organizations in Boston. Okay. Um, probably like youth and education program, like camping trips and canoes trips and all that sort of stuff. And then, um, yeah, then I had the chance to go off to, uh, the UK with my wife. So what was supposed to be a one year adventure turned into five. So over there, and I did the same thing, environmental work, um, and then eventually while I listening to the BBC one day and they were talking about New Zealand, um, report on how it was. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: you know, great place to live and how outdoorsy it was. And like two days later, my wife comes home and says, there's a job in New Zealand I could apply for. And I was like, yeah, let's do it. So again, here we are 17 years later and I'm still here. but that's how, you know, the, I went down this road and ended up with a barn pack. So I was a stay at home dad for a while. Um, when we moved over here and then when my second child was getting ready to go to school, speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: I started to think about what am going to do again? Am I going to go back into environmental work? But I've always just had business ideas for everywhere we went. Yeah. And so I thought about doing a business degree and the more I thought about going back to university, I'm not doing that again. Yeah. Not interested. So I just thought, I'll start to like, uh, just teach myself. I'll start a business. I'll see how get on. If it doesn't work out by the time, um, my son is in school. speaker-0: You're like, no. speaker-1: I'll just go back and get a job. And so that's where I started. I started bringing in some sea kayaks from you, from the U S. Yeah. So it imported some, kayaks and then, uh, work with them for a bit. And then they said, suggested I contact this company in the UK. So then I was importing, uh, life jackets and PFDs and all that kind of everything around kayaking. So then I was learning how to do, you know, this is kind of early days of e-commerce. So I was setting up a website and getting on Facebook and speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: doing all that sort of stuff. And that was going well. ⁓ I then thought, well, I'll start a store. I'll test the waters a little bit. Yeah. Starting an outdoor store. And so there's ski shop in town doing ski rentals. And for two summers straight, they would push all their gear back to the back of the building, and all my kayak stuff, and run a shop for the summer. So it was kind of like testing the waters. But in the meantime, I'd been thinking, well, this is going well. If I add an outdoor brand, then that will help round things out, bigger customer base, that sort of thing. And long story short, that's how I now met my business partners, husband and wife team that I work with. And they were, I was one of their first customers, wholesale customers. So they were selling me backpacks and all sorts of stuff. And so at some point I was like, this has either got to be. bigger or smaller. I decided between going back to just online only or open a store properly. And so, yeah, approached him and said, you know what, we should actually just throw in together and do this and open the store. Give it a go. So that's what happened. And then ⁓ he brought Arn Packs with him. So he was working as the sales rep for Arn for New Zealand. And then when we had our, I mean, we literally didn't even sign a contract with each other. found the building, we both signed the lease and away we went. So one of the things we did was go to Arn and say, look, we can be your warehouse, we can be your wholesale fulfillment and all this sort of stuff. that's how we ended up with this kind of long-term relationship with Arn. Yeah, and it was critical for us as a store because it brought people in the store every day. We're trying to get started, not really that well known. ⁓ And the brand was getting bigger and people were... Seeking it out. So yeah, well, that's a new customer into the store every day Okay, which was pretty exciting, know, like, you know, yeah at first you can sit there for the day and no one would come in you'd be like Okay Yeah, but yeah once you fit a pack to someone then then you kind of relationship they come back and get a sleep bag, you know a tent or whatever Yeah, so so that's how we ended up like meeting Arne and working with Arne for a long time And then here's the the kind of the sad part of the story. So Arne got cancer speaker-0: Okay. speaker-1: but I'll skip straight ahead to say he's fine. He's recovered. Oh, awesome. He got cancer. He was doing really well. His brand was starting to take off in other countries. He went to do some of the trade shows in Germany and he won the gold award at Outdoor in 2015. So it was like the top award he won for his designs. And so that was going to come in well, but like I say, he got cancer. Stuff started to kind of, the business started to shrink back and that was a thing. And you know, he was getting older and in the end he was trying to retire. So he was looking to sell the business and he had a couple of false sales. But for us, I started to worry that it was going to disappear. Yeah. Because it was important for us, you know, in the store. Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah. I said to my business partner, we should buy it and just keep it going. Not having a clue what we were getting ourselves into or thinking about, you know, like where is this thing going to go in the future? not a clue that we even thought about that. It was more like, we've got to rescue it, make sure we've got it for ourselves. It wasn't until after all that that we started to think about, what are we going to do with it? That's how we've ended up with it. This is kind of like roundabout, starting a store, doing wholesale, and then we're brand owners as speaker-0: Yeah. So what year did you acquire RNN? speaker-1: Oh, what was it? 2020. It was literally right before COVID. I mean, I think we signed the paperwork like two weeks before COVID started. The first years we couldn't do anything. Yeah. speaker-0: like, that's right, because you're in New Zealand. I'm trying to think, like, I know COVID in some respects was really good for the outdoor industry because people were like, let's go outside. Right. But then I guess it depends on the country you're in and then where you're manufacturing and everything else, how all that kind of came together. So how did that negatively and positively affect you? speaker-1: Yeah. We manufacture in Vietnam. So that was the negative side of it because they shut down as a country. So it was really like three years before we could get new product made. But like you say, for us as a store, you know, it just took off. were, we were so busy. didn't, it didn't matter to us. ⁓ Like financially we weren't in trouble because we just bought the brand and then couldn't do anything. Yeah. So that was. speaker-0: Okay. speaker-1: You know, thank goodness for that. But yeah. Yeah. So the store was busy and basically those first couple of years, all we can do was just sell down on the stock that we purchased with it. So that just, you know, just kept dropping away and till we almost had nothing coming out the other end. speaker-0: Did you have a pretty decent stock before all that happened or was it kind of midway? speaker-1: It was kind of, it was decent ish. wasn't too, too bad. Um, and like I said, you know, Arn's sales were starting to dwindle at that point. So like Australia is much bigger now than it was at the time. New Zealand is probably about a little bit bigger, but similar. So it wasn't the end of the world for us, but yeah, it was, we had enough stock to keep things going for quite a while. Yeah. The warehouse was looking pretty empty. speaker-0: So going back a little bit, when ARN created the first ARN pack, when was that first year that that was actually created? like when it is the first sale of like ARN or the original ARN pack? speaker-1: I don't even know off the top of my head, but literally I think we're on, from the time he started a business where something like 25 years on. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Awesome. It took him a long time to build the community here. And this stuff was so radical that if you see someone, even now when you would go into the US, someone will be like, front pockets, why would you put front pockets on there? Yeah. Once the community got behind him, You know, we don't, you know, we don't typically sell us sell a pack. Someone else brings their friend in or as well as their partner. And, know, we know they're going to buy a pack with Susan. Yeah. Walk in this door and they're like, my friend. you know, it's like that conversation. They're going to get into our pack. Yeah. speaker-0: You're like, yes, I know they're buying it because they just said my friend. speaker-1: My friend, you know, my partner got one of these and it's like, oh yeah, aren't speaker-0: So I guess so from when I saw the arm pack I think the coolest part was it's not just the front packs that Make an arm unique, but it's also like the suspension system I I guess we can go into a little bit but before you go into that I I Love front packs only because I always carry my camera here because I'm a photographer and I'm always shooting for different brands in the mountains So I have like a little hyper light pack in the front of my chest And people always go, why are you carrying that? Isn't that heavy? Isn't that whatever. it's, it's, it is cause it's awkwardly sitting on my shoulder straps. So it's just pulling down. But then with an arm pack, like once you see the way the suspension sits, it's basically, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, whenever I'm telling you saying anything that's wrong, but like it's, it's like the suspension still pushes down on your hip belt. And so you don't have all that weight ripping down on your shoulders. Exactly. And I did a trip on the Colorado trail. I needed a bigger bag for my camera gear because I was taking a drone and everything else. And so the bag was literally like, I'm going to say it was 14 inches wide. I couldn't see my feet. couldn't. It was super heavy because now I had 13 pounds sitting on my shoulder straps and it was killing me. And then I ended up twisting my ankle when I was walking because I was trying to get something out of that thing and speaker-1: Yes. speaker-0: Long story short, I was like, man, I need something that works for my photography gear and everything else. so I guess go and explain the suspension and just the bags because for everybody that's listening, you're not going to see it. But for those watching on YouTube, you're going to see it and be like, ⁓ I get it. speaker-1: All right, so yeah, I'll talk to you through it. And we do have some SLR camera bags specifically. cool. Greg, so I'll show you those later. Oh, All right, so I'll grab. So we do kind of like three different levels of harness systems. And I'll talk about the one that's like at the top end that has the most moving parts and all that sort of And then as you go down our range, then you might lose like the moving hip belt or something like that. Yeah. But I'll grab this one. We've got an empty pack. pack in front of me here. Move back. Let's hopefully not make too much noise with the mic. So our whole design philosophy, we've got three ideas mainly. So we've got a moving harness, we have this balance system, and then we try to make our packs ⁓ fit as customizable as possible. Yeah. So if we talk about the moving harness system first, so Arne's whole thing was, you know, speaker-0: You're good. speaker-1: When you're hiking, when you're walking, your body wants to move constantly. if you put on a traditional pack, it's kind of like locking you in a bit. And so to start with, we have a moving shoulder strap system we call Uflow. I'll try not, tell me if this is too noisy, but so. the bottom of our pack, the shoulder straps are interconnected. So a typical pack. You're sewn in the top and then the strap goes down and they sewn in at the bottom to the side. Ours are connected through the bottom of the pack. So they're interconnected. So the idea is if you lift a shoulder or drop a shoulder, ⁓ the harness is moving with you. Yeah. All right. So we call it U-Flow because it's in the shape of a U flowing through the bottom of the pack. So that's the first thing we do in terms of movement. And then for a full harness system, have a hip belt plate that carries the hip belt fins and it's attached to one single point in the back here. And that allows the hip belt to move side to side and front to back as well. So every time you take a step, your hips are rotating, then this hip belt is actually going to move along with you. So it rotates side to side. If I go this way, you can see it's also going to pull forward away from the pack or backwards. So it's all connected to that one single point. So basically means, yeah, you're walking, your hips are moving. The pack is going to stay where it is, but the hip belt is actually going to rotate side to side a little bit. Yeah. Or if you like wind up to jump across a stream or something like that, you kind of lean forward. Your body can move away from the backpack. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. speaker-1: Okay. With the harness still attached to you, but the backstage where it's supposed to be. Yeah. That makes sense. So those are kind of like the three ranges of motion that we've built into the packs. speaker-0: And that's, I don't know you've ever seen that video of that pack that like is a bit of a joke. It's like, it's on rails. And so when you walk, that's mostly the pack that stays in one spot and it's a lot. Right? And it's like the very well refined version of like making it feel like you're flowing with your pack as opposed to, cause when I tried it on at the show, I was like, oh, this feels so neat. It's such a unique feeling cause you have never felt. speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. speaker-0: pack move like that before. speaker-1: Yeah, we call it the Arn Boogie. We call it the Arn Boogie because people come in the store, you put a pack on someone ⁓ and I've, you know, work in the store, I've fit probably 3000 plus packs on people in years. And the response is always the same. People do this little dance in the store. They shimmy their shoulders and dance around me like, ⁓ my God, I can move. That's pretty cool. speaker-0: That's like the Conan O'Brien when he does this and then he snips the string. I can't do it, but no. speaker-1: That's it, exactly. So then we've got the balance part. That's the part that, like you say, is most obviously different about our packs. I'll hold one up here. So this is one of the pockets that you can put on our pack. ⁓ They're interchangeable, so you could put smaller ones on or bigger ones or even up to, like I said, these camera size. But the big thing that's different about them is that they're built on a frame. And the frame... speaker-0: Okay. speaker-1: It's pretty curved, so it sits away from your body. There is an air gap there and it loads into the hip belt as you say. So the top part, like I this shoulder strap, if you're watching, can see this shoulder strap, like I said, it can move up and down. so the way we attach the top of the pocket is with this ring. And so the shoulder strap can still do this and the pocket stays still. So the shoulder strap can be moving up and down. The pockets are loading. weight into the hip belt, that frame. And so that just helps to balance it out. mean, the idea behind it all is like getting the load around your center of gravity. So if you think when you put a pack on normally, you like, click it up and it wants to pull back on your shoulders and push on in at the bottom of your spine. But with our product, when you're using the pack and the pockets together, speaker-0: ⁓ huh. speaker-1: You're trying to put as many heavy, small things in the front as you can. your phone, your battery pack, your gas canister, heavy food, all that sort of stuff. Water bottles are great in the front. really load as much as you can in the front. And then that's transferring into the hip belt. And then if you think about your pack, you're putting in bigger, lighter stuff, your sleeping bag, volume to it, but it's not that heavy. speaker-0: It's got a lot of. I got you. you're trying to equalize the weight, so to speak, right? speaker-1: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. You know, like you probably never ever get it perfect, but you get it if you're, uh, once you get used to packing one of our packs, you get it to the point where it makes such a difference. Yeah. Cause I have to do like testing. I'll, I'll sometimes think, Oh yeah, excuse me. People use our packs without pockets. And I have to, I'll be out on a trip testing the pack and I have to remember, take the pocket and I'll put all that gear in. And as soon as I do that, I'm sweating and breathing harder. Yeah. Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah, that's so cool. speaker-1: We had a cool study done recently. So the university here in town approached us. So the students have to do like a thesis and stuff. And one of them came in and got some, some packs from us and they basically put all these sensors on them on ⁓ some subjects and put them on a treadmill without a pack, with a pack, normal pack, and then with one of our packs. And you see the We, they gave us a model, like a stick figure model and you see them, you know, walking upright. Yeah. With our packs on, bend over just slightly. And then you put on a traditional pack and you do that, you know, it's like, automatically lean forward and you see the stick figure, you're like that. So really kind of demonstrates it. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: And then yeah, customizable fit is the third element that we do. You know, again, everyone's different size, shape, know, height, whatever. And so we try to make the full harness is you can really dial into your body shape. So if I start at the bottom, I'll show you one of these hip belts a little bit closer. So we've got two fins, which is not that unique, you know, like a traditional. But not only can you adjust with the webbing at the front, you can also micro adjust where this is sitting. ⁓ okay. So as you move that around, it changes where it's sitting on your hips. Okay. And then this part, we do a stiffer material and a softer material, and this is able to flex. We build in this, so it can actually flex out if it needs to, or it can flex in and dual adjust. So we've got webbing at the top and the bottom. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: And as you start to tighten this up, it creates this curve. ⁓ okay. This one's not broken in, then it just sits on top of your hips. it really takes that, transfers the load front and back into your hips around your center of mass. speaker-0: Yeah. So it looks more like a, like most things it's just a strap that's like wrapped around you like this. And cuts into you a little bit sometimes depending on, I've used a lot of packs and you know, fair few of them are really, really comfortable but there's that odd one where it's just cutting in where that one seems like it's got this like cup that kind of, when it tightens it cups onto your hip bone and stuff like that. speaker-1: Exactly. Yeah. So quite often that sells this pack alone compared to other products that we're doing is just people put that on, they tighten it up and go, Ooh, that's nice. Yeah. And then the core sizes, so small through extra large as well. So you can choose a size and then change the range within that size also. speaker-0: Yeah. And ⁓ the clip in the front of the hip belt too. It's not your standard like buckle, right? It's like... speaker-1: This is one we've designed. It's a quadrobuckle, we call it, because of four attachment points. And it spreads the load, this up and down, across your waist a more. So like say instead of just one single web kind of cutting in a little bit, it just helps spread the load across your waist. And then the other thing about it is it's quick release. So this will be hard to show you on this one where I'm just holding the two fins, but all you have to do is lift that up and it... speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: Which is great. speaker-1: River crossings in New Zealand. Yeah. And so you've got to be able to take your pack off quickly if you need to. that's a quick button. speaker-0: Cause with the traditional clip too that a lot of bags have, I tend to end up like once I've got it cinched in, even if I take the bag off, I'm like, I don't want to adjust the belt anymore. So I throw it on and I'm sucking in to kind of really just get it so I don't do it. And then end up pinching, if it's summertime, I end up pinching my skin and I'm like, ⁓ I should have just loosened it a little bit. But with that, I know just from trying it on at the show, I was like, ⁓ this is really smooth. So I can kind of see how like Arne was like, had all these ideas that people were like, okay. I like these, but maybe not. And he's like, no, they're really good ideas. speaker-1: Yeah, and he took every single one of them and them into his own drawing. speaker-0: Because isn't there like if you look at the bag to, am I not correct? There's like a, with that, the way that the bag sits on your body and flows, there's like a rope or a string, right? That goes through the back. speaker-1: That's right. Yeah. So it's interconnected. So there's been a lot of different ways that, you know, different iterations over the years, how it's done. And for those watching, you'll see that, yeah, there's a oomph way, ultra high molecular weight polyethylene cord that runs through the bottom. Initially there was a braided cord, but it broke a few times. So we switched to this cord. It's never been a problem, but it used to be webbing that went the whole way through. And so now we've moved to a cord. It just makes it that much smoother. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. And I think people would look at that bag and think, okay, they've just added so much stuff to it. It must be ridiculously heavy, right? But it's not. speaker-1: Yeah, mean, like our product used to be the ultra light product. So back in, know, 10 years ago, then this was the light pack on the wall at about a kilo and a half. So it depends on which model. it'll go from like, so 1200 grams to like 15. So it depends. That's it. That's the top range where we have the whole heart. We've got packs on the wall behind me that fit into the ultralight community. But this is the full on harness where it's got every single bell and whistle that he's got. I mean, even down to like, if you can see, so I'll describe this since it's podcast. Our shoulder straps ride on a track. And the track has a cam device attached to the shoulder strap. So instead of unhooking something and adjusting it a little bit at time, speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: All you have to do is pull on this webbing at the bottom of the pack. So you can put this pack on, do up your hip belt, take out some tension out of the shoulder trap, and then you can dial in the back length yourself while you're in. speaker-0: That was another, I forgot about that. That was another really unique thing was you can just adjust it on you instead of like me having to take it out, then get like an insert that I have to prop the Velcro off so I can slide up the bags and you're just constantly, I have scrapes on my hand constantly from, actually the shoot I did was we were trying to do like a military-ish kind of thing. So was using a bag that has like the Velcro in it and I don't have the insert so I just. speaker-1: Thank you. speaker-0: jam my hand in there trying to pry the Velcro off and I got all cut up. speaker-1: Send that a million times and know what you're talking about. speaker-0: So no, that's, it's really cool. Cause I even looked on the site and you have like the ultra lights. think people again, just kind of go back and what I was saying, like, especially if you're listening, you think there's all these things, but you have very distinct categories for like, you have like an ultra light bag. think there was a, a 50, you have a bunch of different sizes, but you have a gambit of things. It's not like you go to, I know everybody harps on REI, but just That's one of the first thing I come to is you get an REI bag that's five and a half pounds ish, right? And yet yours is two pounds lighter and way more comfortable. Two and a half pounds lighter. So you're getting way more. speaker-1: into it and you know like I say back in the day Arran was again that was another thing he's like well why you very extra weight so you know by having that hip belt adjust so well you don't have to have a big chunky hip belt to carry the weight example so you get to lose a little bit of weight there so and we use a you know for the most part we use a full frame as well so you know there's a ventilated mesh back panel and all that sort of stuff on these packs so you're not really skimping on on any comfort Which is we're known for. speaker-0: Yeah, no, that's good. So I guess going into now part of the brand, the brand part of it, what, so your market is, I know that you're all over the world, but like your main market, New Zealand, Australia, where else? speaker-1: Yeah, I mean, that would be the main thing. Like I said, know, Arne was starting to grow countries and distributors before he was ill. And now we're starting to build back up to that. ⁓ So when we came out of COVID, it was like, and we got going again, it was just restock New Zealand and restock Australia. And then we've tripled our size in Australia. then we honestly didn't have a road plan for what we were going to do. Then it was like, are we going to go to the US? Are we going to go to Europe? Do you want to be a certain size? Because the MOQs, the bigger your MOQs get, the better that is. So we talked about it amongst ourselves for a little while. We were going to try for Europe first. The US is notoriously hard to break into as a country. But I'm from the States originally. ⁓ My family's in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. So I'm coming home every year. Anyway, so the one year I was like, I'll grab a couple of packs and I'll just go to speaker-0: Yeah. have heard. speaker-1: some stores and I showed them around the stores and had really positive feedback and they were amazed by the harness and the pockets and stuff. Excuse me. So I was like, well, I'm going to the U S every year anyways, see family. So I started to, ⁓ we started to look at what we're going to do and what we decided was, ⁓ we wanted to be an outdoor specialty stores and we looked into it and there's this membership organization called grassroots outdoor Alliance. speaker-0: Uh-huh. speaker-1: So we're like, all right, we want to go to that show. That's what we'll do. Get in touch with them. No, can't come to the show. Basically, you've got to be doing a certain amount of business with our stores before you get into the trade show. So that was the first year. The next year, I was like, well, I contacted them again. I'm like, so do you have a way for Shoei Coe seeing some new brands? And I actually got a response that time. They're like, actually, yeah, we're kind of putting together something we already do is bring in new brands at the start of the show. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: and show them off. So still waiting to try and get an invite for that. It didn't happen. So I took my son for one of the trips and we just did a vacation around New England. And I went to every single retailer that was part of that membership organization, showing my product in person, you know, knocked on the door for a smile. And everyone was like, now I don't need another backpack, Brian, especially when ⁓ coming out of COVID, everyone was overstocked. No one wanted a new backpack. I was... speaker-0: Yeah, that's right. But. speaker-1: showed the products around and I just said, hey, if you think it's cool, can you let the people at GOA know? And so by the end of that trip, we had an invite to the Discovery Marketplace, which is for the new brands. So we've done that a few times in a row now. So now, every year I come across them doing trade shows, we're getting into more stores. To the point this year, I felt like we had a little bit of a turning point. I went to the one show and store owners who had us, speaker-0: ⁓ that's on. speaker-1: product and for that year we're bringing other store owners to say hey check out check out these cool introduces so that was yeah a pretty cool moment yeah getting getting getting over that little hump a little bit speaker-0: Yeah. Well, it's great to hear that you're like, you you're not just sitting on your butt, right? You're like literally going out there. Cause I love hearing people like they're, they work hard. They don't just go, ⁓ woe is me. You're like, okay, I'm to go out there. Cause you believe in it. Like the person I had just talked to before you were on, you know, it's like, you love your product. You, you want people to actually have ⁓ a comfortable hike and you believe in it. So it's like, it's, it's a no brainer, right? Versus. I know you've probably gone to enough trade shows and seen enough sales guys at booths that you're like, ⁓ this company is not going to do very well because their sales guy is just, he doesn't care about it. He's just a sales guy trying to bring it home. know? speaker-1: Everyone, you see, you walk past a booth and you see someone just like sat behind their computer or looking at their phone or whatever, not really trying to talk to people where I'm like, no one knows us. So I'm like, physically, come on in here. me show you this product. And so I've done that for a couple of years in a row and now I've found, yeah, we're starting to get somewhere with it. speaker-0: That's cool. So what would you say, because Arn is so unique, what is some pushback that you see Arn get versus maybe other backpack companies would get? Or what are some things that you, like people are like, like when they were looking at it saying like, this is great, but, or was it, you know, always positive? speaker-1: No, no, definitely. Now I understand some of Arn's mindset, because Arn still works with us. We meet on a regular basis. Maybe so he wants this thing to go forward. So he still works with us. And initially, he wanted us in our store to put up two hanging ⁓ mannequins and weight them exactly the same. And then it physically shows you the tilt. And I kept saying, Arn, we don't need to do that in the store. People walk in every single day and ask for your product. It's not something we need to demonstrate. Well, now I'm starting to understand why he had that mindset because he'd been fighting against that idea over the years. And so now I see that going into the US where it's just so completely different than any backpack that's out there. They're like, well, why would you want to put that big pocket in the front? It is more explaining now, but, and, and one of the things I realized just like you, when you put it on, then people go, Oh, I get it. get the moving part. get the weight distribution. Um, one of my favorite tricks at the trade shows, I put in, you know, like 30 pounds into one of our pack packs, one, know, pockets and the pack itself. And you put it on someone, they're like, Oh, this is cool. Yeah. Yeah. And then I let them take it off. So they feel how much weight they're. And then they're like, Oh, I. speaker-0: Carry on. speaker-1: That's amazing. Yeah. Very that much weight and it's comfortable. You only have to get to like three kilos of weight in your pack before the system starts to have benefit. So you've got put in three kilos. What's that like? You know, seven pounds or something. Less than that. It doesn't really matter. All the balance part. But as soon as you get over that weight of like seven pounds, ⁓ then you start to feel the benefits of it. Yeah. So we're definitely having to get out there and tell it, try to tell the story a little bit. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. speaker-1: More than more than we're used to where yeah, we're definitely used to like just people walking in going on one of those Our speaker-0: And I hope that people that are listening right now or hopefully you're watching on YouTube that you can see this pack because I love hearing, I love helping like just spread the word on different brands and stuff like that because it's just, it's so much fun. I'm a real big techie person. I just love like cool new things. you ⁓ know, ARN's been around for a while, but it's new in the U.S. right? And I think people have heard about it enough. They're like, man, I really need to get out and try that and stuff like that. So. I guess going into a little bit is what's one like, ⁓ crap moment that you've had since you've had Arn that was just insane that you wanna share with everyone. speaker-1: Um, because we've had a product that's been tested, iterated lots of times, you know, we were starting off with in a good spot. So I haven't had any like really terrible events like that, but like from the start, you know, there's like two weeks after we bought it, COVID. Then it was like, then it was like, okay. Well, after that, when the Vietnam was coming out of the other end of COVID and the factory found out that Arn sold the brand. They were like, we've got enough going on. We don't want to deal with anyone new. So the factory that we were inheriting didn't want to deal with us anymore. That was a really scary moment. We're like, ⁓ my God, what are we going to do now? so my business partner actually jumped on a flight to Vietnam and went and smoothed things out and got the relationship going again. ⁓ So that was really scary. It was like, ⁓ gosh, how do we do this now? speaker-0: The good thing is, I guess, for you, for Vietnam, it's not that far compared to like flying from here. speaker-1: Very far flying? It's still about 15 hours. speaker-0: wow, I just didn't even think it was that far. Yeah. speaker-1: Yeah, it's still you know, sing you go to singapore as what ten hours and then another a Couple hours on after that. So yeah, maybe it's like 13 hours or something. So still yeah, the short one speaker-0: Yeah, wow. So what was a big, like, what's something you thought when you got it? I know we had talked about it a little bit earlier, but you thought it was gonna be easy. And I know you kind of alluded to it a little bit earlier, was like, oh, I got the business in. I was like, let's just get this and add this to the store. But it ended up being kind of a hard thing. speaker-1: Yeah, in a way, I mean, maybe COVID did us a favor. We've been able to grow into the... I mean, the benefit is we've run in retail store, so we have that perspective. We've done that for years. I've fit packs onto, like I said, literally, it would be like thousands of people. So we've had all that experience and now, and we've dealt with lots of brands over the years. now all of that has helped us to now grow into having a brand and running it ourselves. speaker-0: Yeah speaker-1: But probably going into the US, I thought that was going into the US and the UK, which we're doing at the moment. All of that stuff, thought, it's easy. You just sell into a new country. No problem. But the taxes and like, do you set up a business? There's bureaucracy. I had no clue about. Someone gave us advice at the start. They're like, speaker-0: that I'm. speaker-1: business community here, don't do too many markets in one place. And we looked at each other, we're like, no, we're just going for it. And then it was like, ⁓ I see, because it takes a long time to get a 3PL set up. And it takes a long time for the tax numbers and then the registration and all that, know, figure it out because you've got to collect tax locally and pay tax locally. All of that has been much harder than I imagined. speaker-0: Yeah, I think I relate to that a little bit because we went from doing 100 % wedding photography to loving the outdoors and saying, okay, we can take amazing pictures. Let's just go and do outdoor pictures. And we were doing commercial work for big, big brands. Yep. Excuse me. And ⁓ before we did outdoor gear, we're like, ⁓ this is going to be easy. Why not? And then it ended up, it was like, I just started over again. Like I had never done photography. Like, cause no one looks at my portfolio of weddings and goes, ⁓ yeah, you can totally take pictures outdoors. Yeah. Right. And I'm like, but I know I can do it. And like, you're the same thing. You're like, I know this product is worth it. It's worthwhile and stuff like that, but you got, there's all this stuff you have to have set up and trust you have to build with. Yeah. speaker-1: Yeah, you have to build that trust. That's the hard part. One of the cool things, I mean, that's why I go and show up to places where real people were here. One of the cool things we've had though is we've had, I must have had three store owners at least come to New Zealand now and check out our store. We've got a separate building for Arn and we think that we've got a store around the bend up the block. yeah, we've had people come over and go, okay, you're legit. speaker-0: That's so cool. Oh my gosh. Okay, so going into something else here, I know you had said, I think this is before we got on about you kind of going on hiking every once in a while, but how has your relationship with the outdoors changed as you've grown your business? Have you stayed connected with the outdoors? Do you find your outdoors more? speaker-1: yeah, it's changed because we've been doing this for quite a while now in terms of the whole business part. At first it got worse. My friends would be off for a kayak trip somewhere and I'd be working at the store on a Saturday. we're lucky in that we have the Port Hills right next to town. we've got a really good, it's an old extinct volcanic area. So there's nice hills and trails and stuff there. Last night, know, wife and I just went up and walked to the top of the hills and back again, which is nice. And then the mountains here are only an hour and a half away. So now I've gotten to the point where we've got more people in place. have people doing operations, all that sort of stuff. So as, as the business has grown, then I've been able to get that time back. And now I'm like at the start of the year, I put in the kids, uh, vacation, school vacations and stuff in the calendar straight away. And I've learned to like carve out that time. don't tell anyone else, but I carve out more time than I plan on using. There's always, know, even after you've grown and you've got lots of ⁓ good team around you, you still get someone, three people who are sick at the same time. And you end up getting called back in and vacations canceled when you're a business owner. But I carve out that time ahead of time. It's part of the year. And so yeah, I get to do more stuff now. We get out on like probably at least probably two five day trips a year I mean a backpacking trips for five or six days a year and then some weekends as well And then occasionally I'll just do stuff on my own as well where I'm trying to test out a pack Go out for the for an overnight. So yeah, gets worse at the start and then it gets better as you go speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. I guess, cause you grow, know like a lot of people, I've talked about this before with somebody, like you have a bit of a grind that you've got to do in order to get everything kind of flowing. And then you get that flow and then you can kind of replace portions of what you do with employees or you kind of can delegate out to the employees you already have with stuff that you can do. And I think people need to, it's hard to release, you know, even though you didn't create Arn. it's still aren't as is yours. And so it's hard to release your baby to other people and trust them. And I think that's what makes businesses thrive is people who can trust their employees. And so that way you can get back to what you would originally started your business for in the first place. speaker-1: Yeah, exactly. it's still where, like, if I'm stressed or I just need to step away or think about something or solve a problem, that's still what I do is I go for a walk. Go for a hike somewhere. And then all of sudden, you're like, oh, it doesn't seem that bad. We can sort this out. We can work through the tariffs. There's no problem at all. It'll be fine. speaker-0: Yeah, and then by the time you come back from that walk, the tariffs have changed completely again anyways. speaker-1: Exactly, yeah. There's definitely a lot of walks around these hariffs, stress map, all that, like, are doing here? speaker-0: That's awesome. And I guess if someone's listening right now and they have their own business and they're just like, oh, they're just down because they can't separate themselves from it. What would you say to them to help them reconnect to the origins of their company or their idea? speaker-1: As a business owner, are going to have to put in, yeah, you definitely have put in through your hard work. know, there was times where, well, for a long time, I was six days a week on the shop floor. ⁓ but you, if you carve out that time, think it's important that you do it. And if you learn to do it ahead of time, then you're more likely to make it happen. I used to try and be like, all right, let's, plan something. yeah, just seemed to never, never work out. It happens. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: I was going to do, I've got a pack I want to test. And I was like, ⁓ going to go out with my daughter and do something at the start of this week. It's like, ⁓ now I've got to deal with the roof leaking on the building. that gets canceled. We'll get it. We'll get it back in the calendar. Yeah. You just have to schedule it and make sure you do it. speaker-0: Yeah, I'll be right back. I just realized I was supposed to turn off the oven before I came in here and I can smell burning sweet potatoes. Give me one second. was like, what is that smell? Bye. speaker-1: You're not smoked out, you? speaker-0: Well, dinner's ruined. speaker-1: You didn't do lots of swearing on your mic or anything there. speaker-0: I was just like, ⁓ no. Well, I knew the mic was still on. So I was like, I'm just like, ⁓ no, I'm in a little bit of trouble. So they're probably barely editable. Maybe croutons is what we'll just call them sweet potato croutons. Yeah. Because they're already cut in little cubes. So they really fast. before I got on, my wife was like, turn the oven off if they're not ready. And then I came in here, totally forgot. speaker-1: about the middle of it. speaker-0: So that's great. I'm leaving this all in because this is real life too. So all right, so I guess a couple more questions. What's something or you know what, actually let's do this actually. Can you tell me a moment that like a customer story or view really hits you hard? speaker-1: This is going to sound arrogant a little bit, but we get good reviews. So like I haven't had any terrible reviews to deal with. I I told you about replacing that cord before we bought the business when Arne still had it, but we were dealing with his customer service. was an issue. was like people would come in, I broke the cord and it's like, all right, we'll get a replacement sorted for you. And then we've upgraded that, we don't get most of the feedback we get is positive. speaker-0: Yeah, but maybe even a story about like a good review that you're like, someone was like, man, this saved like, because I have lower back issues. And so what I love is the fact that I can sit weight on my hip. If I sit the weight on my hip, I'm good. But like when I put that big bag that I had on my trip, it's pulling on my shoulders now having all that weight kind of shift down. And so I'm sure you've got some really great stories. speaker-1: Yeah, I do. mean, we get two things. will come, we get like, people will say the same thing again and again in reviews and be like, this pack changed my life. And this is the most comfortable pack I've ever worn. the one, this goes back to even before we owned it, but I was in the store the one day and this group of young people came in and the woman wanted to get fitted out with a pack. So we were going through the whole thing, you know, getting it all weighted up and fitted to her and. What was strange was this group of friends were milling around, but they weren't kind of like really shopping. And I was kind of confused about what was going on. This felt like a weird vibe. They were kind of watching us. And eventually another of her friends came over and said, ⁓ let me see how much weight you've got in that. Because we'd been at this for a little while and she was walking around and stuff. And her friend couldn't believe how much weight she was carrying. And it turned out she had back problems. ⁓ speaker-0: . speaker-1: I mean, she was probably in her twenties or something and all of her friends, go on trips together, but all of her friends carried all of her gear for her. whole group came in to watch her get fitted for an R &P. And then, you know, she came back a few times. So I got the whole story and the fact that, yeah, it changed what she could do. So that's kind of a bit of a theme there. we get a lot of same thing with like older customers who have been backpacking for 30 plus years and they've speaker-0: Great. speaker-1: probably had the same pack for all that time and they come in and they're like, want one of those iron packs. And it keeps them going for longer. that's really, I mean, that's kind of why we didn't want to lose the brand. told you in the first place and that's why we were sold on it before we owned the brand. was like, this is an amazing product and we've got to keep it going and we should share it with the rest of the world. speaker-0: Yeah. And I think people need to understand too, like when you talk about putting a lot of weight in it, it doesn't mean like you have to be carrying 60 pounds of weight. It's just you're distributing the weight in a way that that 25 pounds that you're carrying now feels so much more natural than what you would typically feel it. You know what I mean? Yeah. Cause I think that's speaker-1: That's it exactly. mean, once you carry one and you realize, like I've got an outdoor store, so I have access to all sorts of gear. my philosophy is I'm not ultra light at all. I want to be comfortable. I have lightweight gear, but I'm not carrying a sub whatever kilo. Taking a mat that's a bit thicker and I'm going out and I'm being comfortable. I'm not going to be cold. ⁓ But it doesn't matter. I can carry that. your extra load and I'm 52. I've got a torn meniscus and all that sort of stuff. keep going. speaker-0: So guess going into that then, what's one of the weirdest, most unexpected places maybe you've seen an iron pack before? speaker-1: Probably, I mean, they've been taken up to like Everest and things like that. they've, because it's been around for a while. ⁓ I saw on our social media feed, there was a guy kite surfing in somewhere in the middle of the U.S., Indiana or something through the snow that popped up on our feed this week of like a throwback photo. So he's wearing a pack and kite surfing ⁓ through the snow. But I suppose it's more of seeing our product on the trail. you know, as a family we'll be out. backpacking and you see other people coming by and they want to talk to you like, you've got an own background, they're amazing. Yeah, they're pretty cool, aren't they? speaker-0: think that's the best part of owning a company is whenever I talk to an owner and they get to see what they've either invented or what they own on the trail, you're like, ⁓ this is so much cooler than just seeing a sale. What we need is actually being used and people are smiling when they're using it. speaker-1: Yeah, people will talk to you all for a long time and you're like, eventually, sometimes I'm like, on the trail, don't know, should I just let people know straight away I'm one of of our parks or should just like, ⁓ that's cool, yeah, I love my pack too, it's great, yeah. Yeah, my kids usually get a kick out of it, I think they get annoyed now, they're like, do we have to talk about art packs every time someone passes? speaker-0: Right, yeah, ⁓ my gosh, my kids do the same thing. They're like, ⁓ my gosh, daddy, we're gonna talk about photography again with this person. speaker-1: Yeah, that's right. speaker-0: Okay, so I got two more questions for you. ⁓ What advice would you give, and we've kind of talked about it a little bit, but I'd like to kind of finish out with, you know, what's some advice you would give to someone on the trailhead of their own outdoor business or brand? speaker-1: All right. Yeah. I kind of said before about, like you've, you've got to know it's going to be a grind, you know, people will tell you about that. People warn you if you're starting your own business, it's going to be hard, but it's definitely going to be a grind. You've got to put in the time. Um, and, but I don't know with all the things that we, you know, like starting off on my own and then having a business partner partnership and all that. I've always had that like, what's, what's it look like? What do I think it's going to look like? And then I would work through. Like what's the worst case scenario? If I invest this money, what happens if it all comes, you know, comes apart? What if this partnership doesn't really work out once you get, you know, start to do business with someone? So I think that's like really kind of work in your scenarios. And, you know, you've got to have a product that you believe in or, or, you know, the idea you've got to kind of test that a little bit, but you know, it's going to be hard. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. speaker-1: No, it's going to take a while. You're to have to stick with it to make it work. speaker-0: Yeah. And if someone has like, I guess it's a great story from Arne's point of view is like no ideas to out there, right? Like your idea, could be said no by all these big companies and stuff like that, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad idea. And you can take that and run with it and then have a successful business. Cause I think when you're out on the trail, like you were saying earlier, how you'll go out and just kind of think when you're on the trail, I think we all kind of take that. go out there and think and that's when we have like our same thing when we sit on the toilet or take a shower and you have all these cool ideas that pop into your head. It's the same on the trail, right? You're just relaxed and you're like, ⁓ boom this idea. yeah, I love hearing that. speaker-1: Well, I was just going say one of the things that happened at Switchback last week, actually one of the earlier trade shows I to last year, excuse me, well, someone who was high up at one of the top brands, came to me and he's like, I broke my back and I've been watching your product. like to try one out. But long story short, the more we talked over the summer and then going to the trade shows and stuff, kept bumping into each other. And he's like, you've got a new category. Your problem is, you like you You have a hard story to communicate because it's something that's just different. It sits over here in the new category and you're going to have to work really hard to tell that story. But yeah, so if you've got that kind of product, then you just have to know that you're to have to work to get it out there. speaker-0: Yeah. That's cool. All right, so I guess I'll heard a lot about Arn and everything else, but I want to hear a little bit about you, Daniel. So this is where we kind of go into that rapid fire round and kind of a little bit about you. So this is the stuff I didn't send you. So we can ask some questions so you can't ever think about it. All right. So but they're simple, like one word, one sentence answers. I'll ask them. And then after that, we'll just kind of. finish off with one that I think is my favorite. So first thing, and because you're in New Zealand, you can say whatever park you want, but favorite national park. It doesn't have to be in the US. speaker-1: All right. ⁓ Well, yeah, I'll do the US glacier. Glacier. I had ⁓ a trip when I was at university, Delta Glacier, the one time. And my now wife would do this trip, and it was just like amazing. But it was like 30 years ago, so I haven't been there since. Yeah. It was amazing at the time. Yeah. Loved it. speaker-0: If I think that's what's great about national parks is they don't change much. So you can go back 30 years later and you're like, it's just like you remember it, right? All right, solo hike or crew mission. speaker-1: Usually a crew mission. I much go out with my family most of the time. I'll do some stuff on my own for product testing, but usually we're doing it as I try to make sure we get out a couple times a year. If I don't do that, the kids start to be like, you know, they get annoyed when I say we're going to do a trip and then they're like, when I haven't done one for a while, they're like, yeah, when do we get into the trip? So yeah. speaker-0: That's good that they ask. My kids, my son asks and my other two kids are like, don't even ask me. Because I don't want to do anything. It's usually because I end up using them for models, depending on what we're doing. Get that. All right. Tent, hammock, or cowboy camping? Tent. Tent. Is there much hammock culture in New Zealand? speaker-1: Oh, my kids. Yeah, thank you. little bit, but like from here to the mountains, there's not that many trees. Yeah. You can be on the tops here and there's not that much, you know, a place to put it, put a hammock and we have sandflies, blackflies. Oh yeah. So it depends on where you are, but they can be brutal at times. So I definitely have a tent. We also have the hut system here. we have, can, you can go on trails for days and just go on. Yeah. speaker-0: ⁓ I hate those things. ⁓ I didn't know that. I'm legitimately thinking of planning a trip to New Zealand. speaker-1: Definitely, it's worth it. speaker-0: All right, so I guess this one I love this one worst trail snack you've ever tried speaker-1: We, once I had, it's a brand I love, but a local brand had a bad batch of ground beef once in a D high meal. I know that's not a snack, but that was horrendous to like, yeah. From, we now are like, or I don't know what you call it, Scrogg, whatever country you're in, doing our own trail mix basically. So we, from a young age, we're into bribing the kids. So it's like, we go out and we buy sweets and. you know, M &Ms and all that sort of stuff. And we still do it to this day, even though they're like 16 and 19, we go out and all this stuff, put it on the table and everyone goes along and makes their own bag of stuff. Which that keeps them going on the trail. And now it's just become one of those things we can't go out without doing that. Pretty much all junk food, know, throwing some peanuts, but otherwise it's all junk food. Pretzels and all that. speaker-0: That's cool. I'm gonna do that. That's a good bribe. think my girls will want to go out more if I give them that option instead of giving them like healthy food. I love like, the person I just had on was a healthy food and really natural and organic. And that's the way we eat. But sometimes when you're on the trail of just having like nerds clusters or gummy worms mixed with like peanuts and stuff like that. speaker-1: That's it exactly. Yeah. You give them the control of it and it just keeps them going. speaker-0: All right, so I guess that might already played into what's your favorite trail snack. speaker-1: Yeah, probably, yeah, just doing the mix of salty stuff and sweet stuff is good. I'm a Cliff Bar fan as well. I love a Cliff Bar. speaker-0: Okay. What's one outdoor skill you still kind of suck at? speaker-1: I, well, I did like environmental education and parks and recreation management. So lots of training on various things. was a SeaCat guy, ⁓ I'm still not the best at weather. I've got friends who are like, watch the weather and they figure out the patterns, especially on a small island like this, the weather can change. If it comes from the Antarctic, all of a it's freezing. If it comes from Australia, it's hot. And I'm still not great at like really looking at the weather maps and knowing what's going on. I look, but I don't understand it. High pressure loop. speaker-0: Yeah, let's go with the flow. All right, last thing you Googled related to your business. speaker-1: EIN number, tax numbers and things. Lots of that sort of stuff lately. speaker-0: What's the biggest splurge you've made for your business? speaker-1: Definitely be the trade shows going to the US. That's a fairly expensive operation to come over. Last year I did two months on the road. This year I'm going to actually do three where I'm doing lots of trade shows and then going into stores and doing clinics. So there's a lot of, just because the amount of time you're doing is for an expensive operation to do. So that's definitely a bit of a spurge. speaker-0: Yeah. And I guess shipping, depending on how much you ship over, because I know some booths, right, you get there and then they've got pallets that they've got to unload and they're like, ⁓ no, versus you could probably take more yourself because it's mostly bags, right? speaker-1: Yeah, I mean, you know, like that, the packs behind me, that's kind of almost the display that I do at a trade show. And now I've actually, first it was like two roller cases, that's it. It's got to fit into that. Or like a banner and some packs and that's it. But now like we're sponsoring Appalachian Trail Days again this year. And so I now have a tent, a logo tent that I leave in the U.S. Now I leave some gear at my brother's place and. speaker-0: Because you have family, that's right. speaker-1: That makes it a little bit easier, but yeah, I used to do it just it had to fit into two roller cases or I couldn't take it speaker-0: Yeah, that's great. All right, second last one. ⁓ Most used piece of gear in your life right now. speaker-1: ⁓ I suppose I've got to say an arm backpack, of course ⁓ Yeah, I told you I've got a toward meniscus. So there's like that's my most critical piece of gear to keep going is just about yeah, like balance speaker-0: Yeah. Okay. And then one word your team would use to best describe you and why. laid back. Yeah. speaker-1: back. Probably a bit too laid back. There'll be times where I don't talk to people for days because I'm off doing something. Trust that they're doing that they're doing and getting things done. I'll ask after this to see what they have to say. speaker-0: Yeah. They'll be like, yep, that's pretty much right. speaker-1: You called everyone, speaker-0: Well, great. Daniel, thank you so much for being on. I learned, I thought I learned a lot when I met you the first time at the trade show, but I learned so much more and people who are listening, you have a chance to make sure you go on YouTube and watch this podcast because you're going to see a lot about ⁓ the way RN is designed and all that good stuff. Daniel, ⁓ if people are looking for RN online, how can we find you online and on your socials? Yep. speaker-1: Check us out at rimpacks.com. Social will be at the bottom of there. ⁓ We've got a dealer page there. we're like, so we've got more and more stores in the US. So yeah, check out rimpacks.com. speaker-0: Awesome. Well, thank you so much and everybody. you so much for listening to be on the trailhead again this week and we look forward to y'all listening next time. Thanks so much, Daniel. speaker-1: Thanks.