Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #029 Jason Flom with Jerry Miller

Transcript

#029 Jason Flom with Jerry Miller · Wrongful Conviction

0:04
Speaker 1: I think we have the best legal system.
0:05
Speaker 2: It's just the people that implement they get lost along
0:09
Speaker 2: the way and forget what their job really is.
0:13
Speaker 3: He just kept on trying to remind me that who
0:15
Speaker 3: was in authority, who was in control, and how easy
0:19
Speaker 3: it was for my body to be found in any
0:23
Speaker 3: alley of New York City.
0:25
Speaker 4: It's a tough prison when you have the guards going
0:28
Speaker 4: against you because they are the biggest gang in the prison.
0:33
Speaker 1: They do that.
0:33
Speaker 2: They'll give a guy a life sentence and go home
0:36
Speaker 2: in eat spaghetti like it was nothing.
0:39
Speaker 3: And anybody that said, well, why would you confess to
0:41
Speaker 3: something that you didn't do? My question to them will
0:44
Speaker 3: be why wouldn't you confess when somebody's threatening to kill
0:46
Speaker 3: your life?
0:48
Speaker 1: The judge, he said, how you feel? I said, I'm okay.
0:51
Speaker 1: He said, well, the days you're lucky day you're going home.
0:56
Speaker 4: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful Conviction with
1:17
Speaker 4: Jason Flamm. I was actually nervous coming over here.
1:20
Speaker 5: I was so excited because we have somebody, Well, you're
1:23
Speaker 5: gonna have to hear for yourself, somebody named Jerry Miller.
1:26
Speaker 6: Miller was convicted back in nineteen eighty two.
1:29
Speaker 7: He served more than twenty years for a brutal rape,
1:32
Speaker 7: but recent DNA testing proved he wasn't the rapist.
1:35
Speaker 6: He later filed a civil rights lawsuit alleging the now
1:38
Speaker 6: retired officers had framed him for the crime by conducting
1:43
Speaker 6: a suggestive lineup and failing to disclose evidence. The judge
1:47
Speaker 6: rejected those claims, ruling the officers did not engage in
1:51
Speaker 6: any misconduct.
1:52
Speaker 7: Jerry Miller was paroled last year, but still had to
1:55
Speaker 7: register as a sex offender.
1:57
Speaker 8: He missed nieces and nephew's birthday parties because he was
1:59
Speaker 8: not all to be around children. He had to wear
2:01
Speaker 8: an ankle bracelet and keep to a nine pm curfew.
2:04
Speaker 8: Jerry Miller was the two hundredth American wrongly convicted to
2:08
Speaker 8: be cleared by DNA evidence.
2:10
Speaker 9: After twenty five years in prison for a kidnapping, rape
2:13
Speaker 9: and robert that he did not commit. Jerry Miller is
2:16
Speaker 9: now free, his conviction removed from the record based on
2:19
Speaker 9: DNA testing that proves his innocence.
2:23
Speaker 4: Jerry, Welcome to ronfuel conviction.
2:25
Speaker 1: Hey, how you doing.
2:26
Speaker 5: Good morning, and with Jerry we'll call him exoneration Royalty.
2:31
Speaker 5: Here today, the founder of the National Registry of Exonerations.
2:35
Speaker 5: Maurice Posley is here with us today. Maurice, welcome, Thank you.
2:38
Speaker 5: It's a pleasure to be here. So, Jerry, your story
2:42
Speaker 5: is remarkable in so many ways. But first take us
2:46
Speaker 5: back to the day this crime happened. You were in
2:49
Speaker 5: Chicago watching a fight with your father and your brother, right.
2:52
Speaker 1: Actually, yes, I was home watching the fight.
2:55
Speaker 2: My father was president brothers uncle, and I had no
3:00
Speaker 2: idea about any of this because I wasn't thrown into
3:04
Speaker 2: it until a week later.
3:06
Speaker 1: The way that happened was I just was stopped by
3:08
Speaker 1: the police.
3:09
Speaker 2: They said I was peering in the cars as if
3:12
Speaker 2: I was stealing cars, and so from that point they
3:15
Speaker 2: took down my name or they ran my name, and
3:18
Speaker 2: they said, well, you got a lot of traffic tics
3:20
Speaker 2: and I told him, I said, I don't even have
3:21
Speaker 2: a car, so I don't know how that's possible.
3:24
Speaker 5: Well, your name Jerry Miller. So a lot of Jerry
3:26
Speaker 5: Miller's in Chicago, and you were arrested for walking while black.
3:30
Speaker 1: Well that's correct.
3:32
Speaker 2: But what happened is they just took my name and
3:35
Speaker 2: everything down, and so the crime had already occurred as
3:39
Speaker 2: soon because they were looking for somebody. And so when
3:43
Speaker 2: I go home, you know, I'm going about my life
3:46
Speaker 2: and then you know, these people who had stopped me
3:49
Speaker 2: show up at my home. I at first don't know
3:52
Speaker 2: who it is. All I know is the police, and
3:55
Speaker 2: I'm wondering why they knocking on the door. And so
3:58
Speaker 2: when I answered the door, they say, are you Jered Miller?
4:00
Speaker 2: I said yeah, and they say can we speak to you?
4:04
Speaker 2: I said, what is it? And I hear my little
4:05
Speaker 2: brothers and my mother said who's at the door, and
4:08
Speaker 2: then say could you step out? When I stepped out,
4:10
Speaker 2: that was probably the worst thing I could have did,
4:13
Speaker 2: because at that point they put me on the arrest,
4:16
Speaker 2: put me in cuffs, and put me in the police car,
4:19
Speaker 2: and then they took me to almost fifteen miles away.
4:22
Speaker 1: I would think I lived on the southeast.
4:25
Speaker 2: They took me to build my western and that's on
4:27
Speaker 2: the north side, right, And so at that point, for
4:31
Speaker 2: three days, no one knew I was.
4:33
Speaker 1: My parents was all you know. They knew.
4:36
Speaker 2: The police came to the door, and they saw the
4:38
Speaker 2: police drive off with me, but no one actually knew
4:41
Speaker 2: where they took me. And so for three days they
4:44
Speaker 2: had me in interrogating me, trying to intimidate me. Well,
4:48
Speaker 2: I was intimidated because I actually know what was going on.
4:52
Speaker 2: They just kipnapped me and so this is the police
4:55
Speaker 2: and I'm in in lock up and no one is
4:58
Speaker 2: answering any question.
5:00
Speaker 1: And then they.
5:01
Speaker 2: Took me to police headquarters. They asked me to do
5:05
Speaker 2: a lot to take the test, and I had agreed
5:07
Speaker 2: to it, no problem. But when I got there, they
5:09
Speaker 2: had blank paper and they had an area for you
5:13
Speaker 2: to sign your name, and being a fresh at the military,
5:17
Speaker 2: I was like, wait a minute. I remember they would
5:20
Speaker 2: always say you do not sign anything you don't understand.
5:22
Speaker 4: That's good advice throughout life.
5:24
Speaker 1: You know.
5:24
Speaker 2: So and they had words like they're too four, and
5:27
Speaker 2: I really didn't understand what that meant in the context
5:31
Speaker 2: of a blank piece of paper and a place for
5:33
Speaker 2: you to sign your name.
5:34
Speaker 1: I said, I'll do the LOTE test, but I'm not
5:36
Speaker 1: signing this paper.
5:37
Speaker 4: Now.
5:38
Speaker 5: Let's talk about the crime. The crime was a brutal
5:40
Speaker 5: crime in which a forty four year old white woman
5:44
Speaker 5: was accosted by a young black man in the parking
5:47
Speaker 5: garage who pushed her into her car, beat her up,
5:51
Speaker 5: raped her, and robbed her and then threw her.
5:53
Speaker 4: In the trunk.
5:54
Speaker 1: That's it.
5:55
Speaker 4: And then he attempted to.
5:56
Speaker 5: Drive out of the garage and the cashier, I'm getting
6:00
Speaker 5: the chills thinking about this doinga the cashier who was
6:03
Speaker 5: very alert, he recognized the car, so he didn't allow
6:06
Speaker 5: the guy to drive out. And then another guy came
6:08
Speaker 5: and the guy jumped out and fled on foot, and
6:11
Speaker 5: she was freed, but she never identified you. And in fact,
6:15
Speaker 5: the cops had some very difficult things to try to
6:18
Speaker 5: figure out in this case because, and obviously they really
6:21
Speaker 5: wanted to solve this case, a lot of pressure. Right,
6:22
Speaker 5: white woman rape by it's just you know, it's the typical.
6:25
Speaker 10: So it was downtown, it was right off Michigan Avenue,
6:29
Speaker 10: and it's where a lot of people go, and so
6:32
Speaker 10: there was a lot of pressure to solve this from
6:35
Speaker 10: that perspective, Yes, and we.
6:37
Speaker 5: See a lot of wrongful convictions happening in exactly those
6:41
Speaker 5: type of circumstances, but there's a lot of pressure from
6:44
Speaker 5: the community that they care.
6:46
Speaker 4: About the most. Let's just say right, it's wrong, but
6:49
Speaker 4: that's the way it is.
6:50
Speaker 10: It's exactly right.
6:51
Speaker 5: And in this case they had some hurdles to overcome
6:54
Speaker 5: because your blood type didn't match, and your fingerprints didn't match,
7:00
Speaker 5: and they had this evidence. So at some point somebody
7:04
Speaker 5: had to make a conscious decision and say, well, let's
7:06
Speaker 5: just stick with this guy, even though we know he's
7:08
Speaker 5: not the guy, because they had to know you weren't
7:10
Speaker 5: the guy because you didn't magically change your blood type
7:14
Speaker 5: or your fingerprints. And furthermore, the victim described that the
7:18
Speaker 5: perpetrator was clean shaven, and you had it, and you
7:22
Speaker 5: had a lot.
7:23
Speaker 2: Of I had a go tee directly up under the
7:26
Speaker 2: chin and it was at least I say, two and
7:29
Speaker 2: a half three inches, And you cannot grow a goateee
7:33
Speaker 2: two and three a half inches in seven days. This
7:36
Speaker 2: was totally just ignored.
7:38
Speaker 5: Right, I mean, Muris, would you agree that at some
7:40
Speaker 5: point a conscious decision was made to frame Jerry.
7:44
Speaker 10: A conscious decision was made that even though the facts
7:47
Speaker 10: don't fit, we think this is the guy, and they
7:50
Speaker 10: put the blinders on and they keep going ahead even
7:53
Speaker 10: though there's all these red flags that point away where
7:57
Speaker 10: this case went off the track right from the beginning
7:59
Speaker 10: was the woman victim with police creates a composite sketch.
8:03
Speaker 10: These composite sketches go into a daily flyer that gets distributed.
8:08
Speaker 10: Back in those days, it was a piece of paper
8:10
Speaker 10: that got distributed at every shift change, and so people
8:15
Speaker 10: would look for it. And the story was that the
8:18
Speaker 10: two guys that had stopped you for looking in cars said, well,
8:23
Speaker 10: that looks like the guy we just saw. So at
8:26
Speaker 10: that point those two officers were convinced that this Jerry
8:32
Speaker 10: Miller who they saw supposedly looking in cars was the
8:37
Speaker 10: person in the composite. And the case starts to move forward,
8:41
Speaker 10: and they don't want to stop and take a breath
8:43
Speaker 10: and say, well, wait a minute, could we be wrong.
8:47
Speaker 10: Could the person who drew the composite have made a mistake,
8:50
Speaker 10: and composits are notoriously bad to begin with, or could
8:53
Speaker 10: the woman who gave the details have just been so
8:58
Speaker 10: flustered and so upset by this horrible thing that happened
9:01
Speaker 10: to her.
9:02
Speaker 5: Well, and this woman had said that the rapist, the attacker,
9:07
Speaker 5: had ordered her to keep her eyes shut during the
9:09
Speaker 5: whole ordeal, and so she had admitted from the beginning
9:14
Speaker 5: that she would be having a very hard time making
9:16
Speaker 5: an identification, but that didn't stand in the way of progress.
9:19
Speaker 5: And this is also a case in which the cashiers
9:23
Speaker 5: were white, Is that right?
9:25
Speaker 1: No?
9:25
Speaker 2: No, they actually was the people who identified me to
9:29
Speaker 2: the point of the police making the arrest, because the
9:32
Speaker 2: rest was made because of the identification. They were black
9:36
Speaker 2: and the victim was white. And I always said to myself,
9:41
Speaker 2: why are these people lying about seeing me? Why don't
9:45
Speaker 2: they just tell them that they make a mistake. And
9:47
Speaker 2: then the victim is saying they kept her out the
9:51
Speaker 2: loop until a trial.
9:53
Speaker 1: You know, she wasn't even involved in the case.
9:55
Speaker 2: Just my experience of being the man in the hot seat,
9:59
Speaker 2: I learned and they literally at one point had to
10:02
Speaker 2: know I wasn't the person, but at one point they
10:05
Speaker 2: just decided they didn't care and it made no difference.
10:08
Speaker 1: But they were black and she was white.
10:12
Speaker 4: What about the cops who arrested you.
10:13
Speaker 1: They were two white cops.
10:15
Speaker 10: Cross racial is a serious, serious problem in a case
10:19
Speaker 10: like Jerry's. You sort of really don't know is did
10:24
Speaker 10: the guys who worked at the security booths of the
10:26
Speaker 10: cashier's booth, did they honestly mistakenly or did they were
10:31
Speaker 10: they basically nudged by the police to say, well, we've
10:35
Speaker 10: got the guy, we think this is the guy, we
10:38
Speaker 10: believe this is the guy, and so they'll say, well, okay,
10:42
Speaker 10: I mean you hear this in cases of wrongful identification
10:46
Speaker 10: where it's well, the police assured me that they had
10:48
Speaker 10: the guy, and so I could figure out who to
10:50
Speaker 10: pick or however.
10:52
Speaker 1: They did it.
10:53
Speaker 10: And then when you know, you go into the courtroom,
10:55
Speaker 10: you know who it is. He's sitting there, but they
10:58
Speaker 10: know who the defendant is, and when they say, well,
11:00
Speaker 10: do you see him in the courtroom, it's pretty easy
11:03
Speaker 10: to find the right person.
11:04
Speaker 4: Right.
11:05
Speaker 5: So meanwhile, here you are in the middle of this nightmare,
11:10
Speaker 5: the way that took this, and then the trial comes
11:15
Speaker 5: and you were very misfortunate to have a judge who
11:19
Speaker 5: turned out to be a very corrupt and dishonest individual
11:24
Speaker 5: on top of all the other problems.
11:26
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, he has a stow himself.
11:29
Speaker 10: Actually, Judge Maloney went to prison ultimately for fixing murder cases.
11:33
Speaker 10: The evidence over time showed that number one, he was
11:36
Speaker 10: a very harsh sentence or maximum guy. He was throw
11:40
Speaker 10: away the key guy. You know, you got forty five years,
11:43
Speaker 10: which was oh my god. And he tended to balance
11:46
Speaker 10: the cases that he pitched where he was on the take,
11:51
Speaker 10: and some of these were murder cases. Where he was
11:53
Speaker 10: taking bribes to throw him out. He balanced that out
11:56
Speaker 10: by being extraordinarily harsh in other cases. It's incredible. I mean,
12:01
Speaker 10: it's right out of a bad movie, right. You can't
12:04
Speaker 10: make this stuff up. And he ended up going to
12:07
Speaker 10: prison himself.
12:08
Speaker 1: Yeah, even went to prison. I think he received fifteen years,
12:11
Speaker 1: if I'm not mistaken.
12:13
Speaker 5: So Chicago, on top of everything else we know, is
12:16
Speaker 5: a place where wrongful convictions are extremely common, and you
12:22
Speaker 5: had the perfect storm hitting right.
12:24
Speaker 4: You had a.
12:25
Speaker 5: Lot of the different factors that we see again and
12:28
Speaker 5: again in these cases. Then you got Chicago where it
12:32
Speaker 5: just was sort of common, right.
12:35
Speaker 10: The state of things back then was well. Ultimately, they
12:39
Speaker 10: had a federal investigation where they indicted seventeen judges and
12:43
Speaker 10: more than one hundred court clerks and lawyers defense lawyers
12:47
Speaker 10: for fixing cases. It was the name of that Graylow operation.
12:50
Speaker 4: Graylor. Oh my god, I didn't know that.
12:53
Speaker 10: That is where it was the first time in American
12:55
Speaker 10: history where they bugged a judge's court room, his chambers
12:59
Speaker 10: rather and caught them on tape fixing murder case. It
13:03
Speaker 10: was accessible, Holy shit.
13:05
Speaker 5: I mean, on top of everything else, you had the
13:08
Speaker 5: police who were systematically torturing suspects right in that warehouse, right,
13:13
Speaker 5: and this is Chicago, right. People need to understand that
13:16
Speaker 5: this is a phenomenon that happens all over the place,
13:20
Speaker 5: and we as a society owe it to people like
13:22
Speaker 5: yourself and to just regular civilians walking around to stop
13:27
Speaker 5: this insanity and to actually focus the resources of law
13:31
Speaker 5: enforcement on catching the actual perpetrator, because, again not atypical
13:36
Speaker 5: in your case, the actual perpetrator was left on the
13:40
Speaker 5: streets and ultimately went on to rape and rob other people.
13:45
Speaker 5: And those are victims that never should have been victimized.
13:48
Speaker 1: That's true.
13:49
Speaker 2: You wonder who benefited from making me fit into that well? Ho,
13:53
Speaker 2: that was a waste of time because the gas day
13:55
Speaker 2: was out there, so if they knew they was framing me,
13:58
Speaker 2: then they knew they was leaving the gap.
14:00
Speaker 10: The immediate sort of gratification. If that's the right way
14:03
Speaker 10: of saying, we've solved this crime. We've shown that we
14:06
Speaker 10: do our jobs. We are sending the message that we're
14:09
Speaker 10: protecting the public. Unfortunately, they do it on the backs
14:12
Speaker 10: of innocent people like Jerry.
14:14
Speaker 5: And the innocent victims. I mean, how would you feel
14:16
Speaker 5: if you were that person? The next person that he raped,
14:21
Speaker 5: or the father or brother or mother or daughter or
14:25
Speaker 5: whatever of that person. And you're going, well, not only
14:28
Speaker 5: are you left in this terrible situation where for years
14:32
Speaker 5: you've been angry at the wrong person, you've also been
14:36
Speaker 5: deceived in a very tragic way by the people that
14:41
Speaker 5: you trust who are supposed to be protecting all of us.
14:44
Speaker 5: And then you find out that that person who victimized
14:47
Speaker 5: you or your loved one is out there or was
14:50
Speaker 5: out there doing the same thing to other people. It's
14:53
Speaker 5: just another terrible blow for a victim and a victims
14:56
Speaker 5: family to have to absorb. But let's get back to you, Jerry.
14:59
Speaker 5: So you go to trial and you're represented by a
15:03
Speaker 5: public defender.
15:04
Speaker 2: No, no, actually my father retained a lawyer. His name
15:08
Speaker 2: was Sheldon Rosky. He took my case. But in the
15:12
Speaker 2: end I got convicted. So even as I went through
15:16
Speaker 2: that process, even before they charged me, I didn't understand
15:19
Speaker 2: why they was trying to put this on me because
15:23
Speaker 2: I knew I had nothing to do with whatever they
15:25
Speaker 2: were talking about. Because they kept me to die. They
15:27
Speaker 2: never told me what went well or nothing. It just
15:31
Speaker 2: was just pushing me, pushing me on through their system.
15:34
Speaker 2: You know, with the palm prints on top of the
15:37
Speaker 2: garbage camp, you know, and taking it somewhere and then
15:40
Speaker 2: coming back and asking questions in around about way, still
15:44
Speaker 2: not explaining to me what this is all about. And
15:47
Speaker 2: then the fact that I couldn't call anyone and no
15:52
Speaker 2: one knew I was.
15:54
Speaker 5: You're talking about during the interrogation. Yeah, how crazy is
15:58
Speaker 5: it that they won't even tell you why you're there,
16:01
Speaker 5: Like they're trying to drive you insane? Basically, because who
16:06
Speaker 5: could withstand that type of a scenario on top of
16:10
Speaker 5: everything else. At least if you knew what they were
16:11
Speaker 5: charging it with, you could say, well, wait a minute,
16:14
Speaker 5: you know on that day or whatever I mean. But
16:16
Speaker 5: they wouldn't even give you that much information. So that's
16:19
Speaker 5: a really horrible place to be in. And then comes
16:23
Speaker 5: to trial.
16:23
Speaker 2: Well, actually, as you speak about the tearrizing, imagine a
16:28
Speaker 2: knock on the door, you foolishly step out, and then
16:33
Speaker 2: you're handcuffed in that context and put into a police
16:35
Speaker 2: car and take in fifteen miles.
16:38
Speaker 10: Or you say foolishly. But you know, the thing is
16:41
Speaker 10: most people are sort of raised and it sounds like
16:44
Speaker 10: you were that the police are there to do the
16:46
Speaker 10: right thing. So when they make a request of you
16:49
Speaker 10: like that, you're not thinking maybe now you might think
16:52
Speaker 10: I wouldn't think that.
16:54
Speaker 1: Your thinking that.
16:55
Speaker 10: If I step out the door, I'm probably going to
16:57
Speaker 10: be handcuffed.
16:58
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a million miles no way I could have
17:01
Speaker 1: figured that out.
17:02
Speaker 10: And because you know where you were at that point
17:06
Speaker 10: and in the military you were working, you thought, this
17:08
Speaker 10: is what police do.
17:09
Speaker 1: This is their.
17:10
Speaker 10: Job to come around and ask some questions, not thinking
17:13
Speaker 10: they're just going to whisk you away because somebody has
17:16
Speaker 10: decided you look like a picture.
17:18
Speaker 2: Now on top of that, now this is you know,
17:20
Speaker 2: this might be hard to believe. To further make your
17:23
Speaker 2: point about where are we when you're doing things like that.
17:27
Speaker 2: As they was driving, I saw my brother in the car.
17:30
Speaker 2: He's with his girl, and he was coming towards us
17:33
Speaker 2: in a different direction. My hands are tapping behind my
17:36
Speaker 2: back in the back seat and I'm trying to get
17:38
Speaker 2: his attention, you know, and he's looking. I don't know
17:40
Speaker 2: if he even saw me, but the police told me
17:43
Speaker 2: say if he stopped, he going to jail too.
17:45
Speaker 4: I mean, that's a randomness thing.
17:47
Speaker 2: This is I mean, this is this is literally how
17:51
Speaker 2: it happened, how it started out.
17:53
Speaker 5: I didn't want to talk about that trial and that moment.
17:56
Speaker 5: You go through the trial and then the jury goes out.
18:00
Speaker 5: Now you're in a situation that is I think impossible
18:03
Speaker 5: for anyone to imagine. What did you think they were
18:06
Speaker 5: going to say? Did you think that they were going
18:08
Speaker 5: to get to the truth?
18:10
Speaker 2: Well, you know, it's funny that the process it self
18:13
Speaker 2: wears you down, you know, because you would get a
18:16
Speaker 2: court date, okay, and so when you had to go
18:19
Speaker 2: before the judge four in the morning, they would stop
18:22
Speaker 2: knocking your door until you get ready. And you're going
18:25
Speaker 2: through the jail system, and you start off at four
18:27
Speaker 2: in the morning, and then by the time you get
18:29
Speaker 2: to the bullpen to where you are and they come
18:32
Speaker 2: get you from there and take you right into the courtroom.
18:35
Speaker 2: They did that almost ten times, waking me up four
18:38
Speaker 2: in them on the court case. As soon as I
18:40
Speaker 2: get there before the judge, nothing is really said at
18:43
Speaker 2: all continues, which means put them back in the bullfen,
18:47
Speaker 2: send him right back to the part of the jail
18:49
Speaker 2: where he's located.
18:51
Speaker 1: And they did that over ten times.
18:53
Speaker 2: It where is you down? And my point is you
18:56
Speaker 2: just want it to be over. Of course I want
18:58
Speaker 2: to be found innocent, but I'm going through the process.
19:02
Speaker 2: I know that they are railroading me. I know what
19:05
Speaker 2: they're doing, and there's nowhere for me to stop. It's
19:07
Speaker 2: like a train that you just cannot stop.
19:10
Speaker 5: On those days when they would wake you up at four,
19:12
Speaker 5: did they give you breakfast? Did they give you coffee?
19:14
Speaker 5: Or they just took you and you're just sort of
19:16
Speaker 5: there on an empty stomach.
19:17
Speaker 1: Well, you would get breakfast along the way.
19:19
Speaker 2: Something you get breakfast along the way, then you would
19:23
Speaker 2: if you're still there, if you're still on your way
19:25
Speaker 2: or you're still waiting to see the judge, they would
19:28
Speaker 2: give you a blooney sandwich, which is like a piece
19:31
Speaker 2: of horse meat with two slices of bread wrapped in
19:34
Speaker 2: some cellarphan But at one point that even tastes good.
19:39
Speaker 1: It's just it's a it's a hell of a situation
19:43
Speaker 1: to be.
19:43
Speaker 10: In the process is very dehumanizing.
19:46
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, all the way through.
19:48
Speaker 5: So you finally get to court and you finally get
19:51
Speaker 5: your day in court. And it goes back to my
19:54
Speaker 5: question when the jury went out, were you optimistic, were
19:57
Speaker 5: you pessimistic?
19:58
Speaker 4: What did you think?
19:59
Speaker 2: Well, but I guess the easiest way to explain it
20:02
Speaker 2: is you kind of know what they have done and
20:06
Speaker 2: what they're doing that you are aware of, and no
20:08
Speaker 2: one else except the people who are doing it to you,
20:12
Speaker 2: you know, you being rare road, and so you kind
20:15
Speaker 2: of just go through the process. You hope that you
20:18
Speaker 2: found innocent, but you know the odds are against you,
20:22
Speaker 2: and you just give in to it.
20:24
Speaker 1: You just are going to accept whatever they say.
20:27
Speaker 2: If you find innocing, of course you're gonna be happy
20:30
Speaker 2: as anybody on this earth. But I mean to be
20:34
Speaker 2: wrung through the system like that so long for a
20:37
Speaker 2: period of a year, and then you know the way
20:41
Speaker 2: it happened, being kiddnapped from your home, and it.
20:45
Speaker 1: Just was it was. I guess the word would be surreal.
20:49
Speaker 2: It can't be explained how you feel, but it would
20:53
Speaker 2: be like anyone else who has been called in the
20:56
Speaker 2: situation where you can't really articulate what going on your
21:00
Speaker 2: mind because you're feeling everything. You feeling the hurt, you're feeling,
21:04
Speaker 2: the pain, you feeling the realism of being hopeless in
21:08
Speaker 2: a situation that's hopeless, and it's just hard to describe.
21:13
Speaker 2: But when it came back and said I was guilty.
21:16
Speaker 2: I was broken heart, you know. I felt bad for myself.
21:20
Speaker 2: I feel bad that my family was broke up and
21:25
Speaker 2: sad for me. But they never gave up, you know,
21:28
Speaker 2: and they didn't want me to see their pain, and
21:30
Speaker 2: I didn't want to see my pain. So they had
21:33
Speaker 2: done all they could, and I knew it was hurt
21:35
Speaker 2: because they couldn't They couldn't fix it.
21:37
Speaker 5: So you were with no evidence, no physical evidence of
21:41
Speaker 5: any kind, in fact, physical evidence that proved that you
21:43
Speaker 5: couldn't have been the guy. But of course they didn't
21:45
Speaker 5: introduce that a trial, right They didn't introduce the fingerprints
21:48
Speaker 5: that didn't match, they didn't introduce the blood that didn't match.
21:51
Speaker 5: They probably didn't talk much about the fact that you
21:53
Speaker 5: couldn't have been the guy because you didn't.
21:54
Speaker 4: Magically grow a beard. And that's a pretty easy.
21:57
Speaker 5: Thing for someone to say that you're clean shaven, or
21:59
Speaker 5: I mean, somebody makes up eye caller. That can mix
22:01
Speaker 5: up some other characteristics, but it's hard to mix up
22:03
Speaker 5: a guy with a beard, but a guy with no
22:04
Speaker 5: beard or go tee in your case.
22:06
Speaker 2: But when you have a judge that's instrumental in the process,
22:10
Speaker 2: and he was very instrumental, because there was questions that
22:14
Speaker 2: he should have asked himself, you know, asked how this
22:17
Speaker 2: was going and what they were saying, I mean to
22:20
Speaker 2: take a blood test in the middle of the process
22:23
Speaker 2: of me going back and forth to court, and then
22:26
Speaker 2: when we go before the court to hit her the
22:28
Speaker 2: outcome of the laboratory test a comparison test. Their answer
22:32
Speaker 2: was inconclusive, and no one said anything. All they say
22:35
Speaker 2: was inconclusive. But I was smart to realize that, how's
22:38
Speaker 2: it inconclusive? How can it be?
22:41
Speaker 1: I don't know? And that's basically what that meant. We
22:43
Speaker 1: don't know.
22:44
Speaker 2: When then, what did you compare it to? It was
22:47
Speaker 2: called a comparison test. The judge didn't say he accepted inconclusive.
22:51
Speaker 2: The prosecutor was the one saying inconclusive, and my lawyer
22:56
Speaker 2: accept an inconclusive.
22:57
Speaker 4: Well, you guys all made the same mistake.
22:59
Speaker 5: You forgot the pay off the judge right, that would
23:01
Speaker 5: have solved that problem, That would have been real conclusive.
23:20
Speaker 5: In prison, you went through a really dark time when
23:23
Speaker 5: your father died, and how you turned that into a positive,
23:27
Speaker 5: how you found whatever that inner strength was that really
23:31
Speaker 5: allowed you to survive and keep hope alive.
23:34
Speaker 4: How did that work?
23:35
Speaker 1: Well, you know, that was that was a tough time.
23:38
Speaker 2: Was I think that was one of the toughest times,
23:41
Speaker 2: you know, in my life, because no one in my
23:44
Speaker 2: immediate family had ever died, and under the circumstances of
23:48
Speaker 2: me being locked up.
23:49
Speaker 1: Man, it was a heavy load. You know.
23:51
Speaker 2: Once I heard that not only did he die, they
23:54
Speaker 2: didn't tell me till three days later. For some reason,
23:57
Speaker 2: the information didn't get to me, I said, few days later.
24:00
Speaker 2: So so I never I never really knew, you know,
24:04
Speaker 2: knew the circumstances and all of that. But eventually, when
24:07
Speaker 2: I overcame that pain, then picked up the pieces because
24:11
Speaker 2: I was really giving up at that point. So I
24:14
Speaker 2: said to myself, you know what, I'm gonna clear my
24:17
Speaker 2: father's name. It's not my name now, it's my father's name.
24:20
Speaker 2: I motivated myself by telling myself that this was work
24:24
Speaker 2: for him. This is I'm gonna continue with the rest
24:26
Speaker 2: of this bit to free myself and clear his name
24:31
Speaker 2: and letting his name be my motivating force. And that's
24:34
Speaker 2: what I did on the second half of that bit. Man,
24:36
Speaker 2: it was all about my father ain't cleaning his name?
24:39
Speaker 4: And your mom had a lot to do with that, right.
24:41
Speaker 2: My mother, while I was in jail when this whole
24:43
Speaker 2: thing started, I called on the phone and she said,
24:48
Speaker 2: you know what, son, you sound like you depressed. Actually
24:51
Speaker 2: she calls me little Jerry because I'm my father's.
24:53
Speaker 1: Name, you know, Junior.
24:55
Speaker 2: So she said, little Jerry, Look, when you get off
24:58
Speaker 2: this phone, I want you to pick up a book
25:00
Speaker 2: and started reading a book, a newspaper I want you
25:04
Speaker 2: to read. And I was so confused about the situation
25:08
Speaker 2: I found myself in that I took her literally. I said,
25:12
Speaker 2: you know what, if I can't trust nobody, I could
25:15
Speaker 2: trust my mother. So when I got off the phone,
25:18
Speaker 2: I literally walked up to this guy and said, you're
25:21
Speaker 2: reading that book. Let me read that book. Let me
25:23
Speaker 2: check that out when you get through. Said no, you
25:26
Speaker 2: can get it right now. I took that book and
25:28
Speaker 2: I started reading.
25:29
Speaker 4: What book was that?
25:30
Speaker 2: I can't tell you what it was, just you know,
25:32
Speaker 2: it was just a book. And you know I wasn't
25:35
Speaker 2: I didn't read swell, you know, because I used to
25:38
Speaker 2: tell the truth skip school all of that. I wasn't
25:41
Speaker 2: a bad kid, but you know, I was always wanted
25:44
Speaker 2: to do something that I'm not supposed to do, and
25:46
Speaker 2: so I didn't do what I needed to do.
25:50
Speaker 1: So when I started reading, I said to myself, damn.
25:53
Speaker 2: You really need to be read. So I read things
25:57
Speaker 2: that I liked. That's how I started. I started reading
25:59
Speaker 2: things I like to read, entertaining things or whatever. And
26:03
Speaker 2: I think I read before I even left the gail.
26:05
Speaker 2: I think I read over one hundred books.
26:07
Speaker 4: And not only did you read one hundred books, you
26:09
Speaker 4: wrote hundreds of letters.
26:10
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's another thing. I used to write a
26:14
Speaker 2: letter and she was say, you know what, your spelling
26:18
Speaker 2: is pretty bad. That's my mother, she would say, and
26:21
Speaker 2: your writing is not too good either, And I took
26:24
Speaker 2: that literally. So from another suggestion from my mother, I
26:29
Speaker 2: started keeping the dictionary right there in hand. So anytime
26:32
Speaker 2: I wrote a letter, I made sure every word was
26:34
Speaker 2: spelt right.
26:35
Speaker 1: You know.
26:36
Speaker 2: If I wrote, if it didn't look neat or presentable,
26:40
Speaker 2: I redo it. So eventually she would write back, she say,
26:44
Speaker 2: your writing is much better, and it's funny. I just
26:48
Speaker 2: hearing them words from her made me want to do
26:50
Speaker 2: even better, you know.
26:52
Speaker 5: And then you wrote letters to lawyer after lawyer after organization,
26:57
Speaker 5: or to anybody that might be able to help me.
26:59
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was writing food. They give you they a lot,
27:03
Speaker 2: you three free letters a month, but I also would
27:06
Speaker 2: buy my own pre stamp. I would take a book
27:09
Speaker 2: and just write, write the letters and send it to
27:12
Speaker 2: everybody in the book.
27:13
Speaker 5: And that's an interesting thing too, right, because your case
27:17
Speaker 5: wasn't taken up by any of these firms or organizations
27:20
Speaker 5: that you wrote to. And I can understand that. I mean,
27:23
Speaker 5: everybody's busy. Everybody gets a lot of letters. Nobody knows
27:26
Speaker 5: you and knows if you're innocent or guilty or whatever.
27:28
Speaker 5: But you got to keep trying. And Marie, can you
27:32
Speaker 5: talk about that, like the role that law firms and
27:35
Speaker 5: organizations like the Instance project play in this scenario.
27:39
Speaker 10: That's an interesting question because when you kind of boil
27:42
Speaker 10: it down, it's a matter of triage because there's so
27:45
Speaker 10: many letters, there's so many people. Innocence projects in this
27:49
Speaker 10: country typically won't even look at a case unless the
27:52
Speaker 10: person has at least five years left in their sentence,
27:55
Speaker 10: because they want to get to the people with the
27:57
Speaker 10: longer sentences, and it takes a while to get these
28:00
Speaker 10: cas is undone. And so that's why I mean Trioche,
28:03
Speaker 10: just to tell you a little bit about Jerry's and
28:06
Speaker 10: my relationships. I had been writing about wrongful convictions at
28:10
Speaker 10: the Chicago Tribune and Barry called me and said, we're
28:14
Speaker 10: going to have an exoneration coming up in the next
28:16
Speaker 10: couple of days in Chicago. Barry Shock, and we're going
28:20
Speaker 10: to be out there. It's going to be the two
28:22
Speaker 10: hundred DNA exoneration in the country. So it's a big deal.
28:27
Speaker 10: You know, a number means something. And so he was
28:29
Speaker 10: telling me a little bit about it, and I said,
28:31
Speaker 10: you know, and most of these cases the person is
28:34
Speaker 10: still locked up. When he said that Jerry had been freed,
28:38
Speaker 10: I said, I'd like to go interview him and write
28:42
Speaker 10: a story that appears the day that he's going to
28:45
Speaker 10: be in court. So it kind of gives me a
28:47
Speaker 10: bit of a scoop, but it also gives me a
28:49
Speaker 10: sense of who this man is to go talk to him.
28:53
Speaker 10: And in writing stories about people are wrongfully convicted, I'm
28:58
Speaker 10: always have been astonished, encouraged and curious of how do
29:04
Speaker 10: they manage this. It's hard enough to do the time
29:07
Speaker 10: if you're guilty, but when you didn't do it, how
29:10
Speaker 10: do you put one foot in front of another? And
29:13
Speaker 10: for twenty five years, I wanted to meet this man,
29:16
Speaker 10: and so we arranged to meet. I drove down South
29:19
Speaker 10: suburb and introduced myself and one of the first things
29:24
Speaker 10: he said to me was I wrote to you and
29:27
Speaker 10: you never wrote back. And I did not remember that, frankly,
29:32
Speaker 10: because I get a lot of letters, and I was embarrassed.
29:37
Speaker 10: I mean, he said it, and it wasn't like you know,
29:40
Speaker 10: and for that reason, I'm not going to talk to you.
29:42
Speaker 10: We had a great interview and he really impressed me
29:44
Speaker 10: with his faith, how he had managed to maneuver through
29:48
Speaker 10: what seems to be you know, you talk about all
29:51
Speaker 10: the times you're coming to court, and it just after
29:53
Speaker 10: a while, the inevitability wears you down to the point where,
29:59
Speaker 10: I mean, you understand why people plead guilty to crimes
30:02
Speaker 10: that they didn't do, because it's like, I can't get
30:05
Speaker 10: out of this. So you take the best deal you
30:07
Speaker 10: possibly can, and you hope you can manage to sort
30:11
Speaker 10: it out later or get through it. So to bring
30:13
Speaker 10: this full circle, Jerry tells me, I wrote.
30:17
Speaker 1: To you and you never wrote back.
30:19
Speaker 10: And so I went back to my office and I
30:20
Speaker 10: find the file and in there is his letter. So
30:23
Speaker 10: I gave it back to him, and it changed me
30:26
Speaker 10: in the way that I would look at cases and
30:29
Speaker 10: deciding whether to work on them or not. There's a
30:31
Speaker 10: real human being behind that letter. And so I never
30:36
Speaker 10: ever didn't write back to anyone who wrote to me
30:39
Speaker 10: from then.
30:39
Speaker 1: On, not to cut you off, but I just wanted
30:42
Speaker 1: you to understand.
30:43
Speaker 2: When you came and to that business office that day
30:46
Speaker 2: and I said, I looked at you and I said,
30:49
Speaker 2: you probably don't remember me, but I wrote you, and
30:51
Speaker 2: you never wrote me back. When I said that, I
30:53
Speaker 2: was happy. I was happy because I had already been
30:57
Speaker 2: told that in a little while you're going to be
31:00
Speaker 2: generated and all the lads will be told will be
31:03
Speaker 2: washed away. But I was actually happy, and I just
31:07
Speaker 2: knew that what I was doing was letting you know
31:11
Speaker 2: that you missed the school.
31:12
Speaker 10: Well I did, indeed, and you're right, you weren't like
31:16
Speaker 10: I hope you burn in hell for the rest of
31:18
Speaker 10: your life. Know you were very generous and about it,
31:24
Speaker 10: and I was so thankful that you did, because it
31:27
Speaker 10: enabled me to see to realize that behind every letter
31:30
Speaker 10: there is a human being and a face and a
31:33
Speaker 10: real life. And that changed me as a person.
31:37
Speaker 5: And so you ended up serving basically twenty five years,
31:40
Speaker 5: including the time in jail, about a year in jail
31:43
Speaker 5: and then twenty pen roll.
31:45
Speaker 1: You know that was about a year.
31:47
Speaker 5: Right, So that's the part I want to get to.
31:49
Speaker 5: So finally you serve your time and your parole and
31:53
Speaker 5: then you're out. But things got real grim. I don't
31:58
Speaker 5: think a lot of people focus on the stigma and
32:02
Speaker 5: the trauma that's associated with coming out and then being
32:08
Speaker 5: a prisoner in your own home and being looked down
32:11
Speaker 5: upon and mistreated by society in so many different ways.
32:17
Speaker 5: And I want to get into that because it's important
32:20
Speaker 5: for people to realize. I mean, we have almost a
32:22
Speaker 5: million people as registered sex offenders in this country, which
32:25
Speaker 5: is ridiculous.
32:26
Speaker 4: Can you talk about that? You come out and then what.
32:30
Speaker 2: Well, Actually, when they released me from the penitentiary, I
32:33
Speaker 2: was happy than I've ever been in about twenty six years,
32:37
Speaker 2: twenty five years. For a period of time, getting from
32:41
Speaker 2: the penitentiary itself to my home where I would be
32:44
Speaker 2: located at.
32:46
Speaker 1: I was free.
32:47
Speaker 2: I was literally free, no parole offs, nothing, I was free,
32:51
Speaker 2: moving freely, going to the store first time. The first
32:55
Speaker 2: thing I bought when I was free was it might
32:57
Speaker 2: sound crazy, but I bought chocolate, milk and french.
33:03
Speaker 4: Why.
33:03
Speaker 1: I have no idea.
33:04
Speaker 2: And I went to the store and I bought this
33:06
Speaker 2: and I was eating and I was looking around. It's
33:08
Speaker 2: just like I'd never done this before. I felt like,
33:10
Speaker 2: I've never done this before.
33:11
Speaker 4: Who are you with?
33:12
Speaker 1: I was by myself. You came out and they give
33:15
Speaker 1: you some of thewhare that's it?
33:17
Speaker 2: Some of thewhere I don't know how much money they
33:19
Speaker 2: gave me, but I had money. And so when they
33:21
Speaker 2: dropped me off at the wherever they dropped you off at,
33:24
Speaker 2: I went into the store and I'm looking around on
33:27
Speaker 2: trying to decide.
33:28
Speaker 1: It was too many things to decide from.
33:30
Speaker 2: So I decided on French fries and choked the milk
33:33
Speaker 2: and I sat there eating it, just looking around like
33:36
Speaker 2: like I've never been in the store before, never been
33:38
Speaker 2: free before. And when it hit me that, you know what,
33:42
Speaker 2: Now I catch the bus and I get to see
33:44
Speaker 2: my family. So I go through that process, but I
33:50
Speaker 2: was just all I can say is I was happy.
33:53
Speaker 2: But that changed real quick talk about that, Okay, by
33:57
Speaker 2: the time I reached my mother's home, because along the
34:00
Speaker 2: way I ended up my brother picked me up at
34:02
Speaker 2: ninety fifth at the bus stop.
34:04
Speaker 1: He took me to my cousin's house.
34:07
Speaker 2: Then from there we went to a brother's house and
34:10
Speaker 2: from there we went to my mother's house. But the
34:14
Speaker 2: next morning, the parole officer showed up with the police
34:17
Speaker 2: knocked on the door like they was trying to break in.
34:20
Speaker 2: So I asked the door and like I said, the
34:23
Speaker 2: happiness was over here because I was faced with parole
34:25
Speaker 2: officers aggressive, police officers aggressive, and they told me you
34:31
Speaker 2: got to go over to this police station and as
34:34
Speaker 2: a sex officer. But prior to me doing that, they
34:39
Speaker 2: had me in the backseat of a car and then
34:41
Speaker 2: they said, look, you have to sign this paper. They
34:45
Speaker 2: explained it if I'm not mistaken as classes to go to.
34:49
Speaker 2: It was a new law that wasn't implemented when I
34:51
Speaker 2: first got convicted, and through all the years I was
34:54
Speaker 2: locked up, they came with this law, which is the
34:56
Speaker 2: sexest Offender Registration. So because it wasn't part of my incarceration,
35:05
Speaker 2: they said, look, if you don't sign that paper, we're
35:07
Speaker 2: gonna take your ass right back to the penitential. And
35:11
Speaker 2: I was like, this can't be real. You know, I
35:15
Speaker 2: don't want to sign it. And I don't want to
35:17
Speaker 2: go back, and I really didn't know what I was
35:20
Speaker 2: going to be faced with. I signed the paper to
35:23
Speaker 2: be free. But when I signed that paper, the inencnserration,
35:28
Speaker 2: the humiliation started, all of it.
35:31
Speaker 4: And here you were faced with signing a piece of paper.
35:33
Speaker 5: It almost goes back to the beginning, right, signing a
35:35
Speaker 5: piece of paper without a lawyer, without anybody to advise you,
35:38
Speaker 5: but under threat of something that you obviously could not
35:43
Speaker 5: deal with.
35:43
Speaker 1: Yeah, how would you how do you send yourself back
35:45
Speaker 1: to the pintention.
35:46
Speaker 5: You don't, I mean, you sign anything at that point.
35:48
Speaker 5: But so talk a little bit about that. Now you're
35:52
Speaker 5: having to go to sex offender classes.
35:54
Speaker 2: Right, let's deal with just going to the police station
35:58
Speaker 2: and for the first time my life, being called a
36:02
Speaker 2: sex offender and saying that I had to register. I'm
36:06
Speaker 2: so dangerous, I'm so much of an animal that I
36:09
Speaker 2: have to go to the police station and telling my
36:11
Speaker 2: animal and this is where I live and they're going
36:15
Speaker 2: to be watching me or whatever. You know that that
36:18
Speaker 2: was humiliating on his face, And I know in my
36:22
Speaker 2: heart I just did all this time that I shouldn't
36:25
Speaker 2: have done in the first place.
36:27
Speaker 1: And now here you are again in my face, telling
36:31
Speaker 1: me you basically a piece of shit all over again, and.
36:35
Speaker 5: You're basically locked up all over again because at this
36:37
Speaker 5: point they put all these restrictions on you, where you
36:40
Speaker 5: couldn't leave your house, you had to curfew, you had
36:43
Speaker 5: to turn the house dark on Halloween in case any
36:45
Speaker 5: kids showed up. You had all these, I mean a
36:48
Speaker 5: million and one rules to follow. Ankle, bracelet, GPS. It's
36:53
Speaker 5: so amazing to me that you were on the verge
36:56
Speaker 5: of actually giving up right at a certain point, and
37:00
Speaker 5: that's the day when things.
37:02
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's you know what. That's just going to show
37:04
Speaker 2: you that my prayers will answer. Because when you're in
37:09
Speaker 2: the penitentiary, whether you give your innocent, you're among people
37:14
Speaker 2: like you, all of you, all of you have been convicted,
37:17
Speaker 2: all of you been sinens, and this is the life
37:20
Speaker 2: you're in right now. And so when you go home,
37:25
Speaker 2: when you free, and you bring that stigma back. I
37:29
Speaker 2: use the word make you feel like a piece of shit,
37:31
Speaker 2: not to be vulgar, but to make you understand that
37:35
Speaker 2: literally you feel like that's the way they look at
37:39
Speaker 2: you because they try to avoid you when the truth
37:41
Speaker 2: comes out that the legal system has said this and
37:47
Speaker 2: branded you that, but it's not real. It's not real
37:52
Speaker 2: until you realize that this person is not even guilty.
37:55
Speaker 1: It's a whole different scenario.
37:57
Speaker 2: If you're guilty, he can carry his weight and people
38:03
Speaker 2: accept him as being guilty and he moves on with
38:05
Speaker 2: his life.
38:05
Speaker 1: There's no confusion.
38:07
Speaker 2: But it's a lot of confusion when you're innocent and
38:10
Speaker 2: you carry that weight of someone that you're not.
38:14
Speaker 5: And so your sort of prayers were answered when the
38:17
Speaker 5: Innocence Project took your case and ultimately they were able
38:21
Speaker 5: to find a slip that the victim had worn, right,
38:24
Speaker 5: and they found the DNA on the slip, and then
38:27
Speaker 5: the authorities allowed for that to be tested, and that
38:31
Speaker 5: proved I'm getting the chills again. That proved without any
38:35
Speaker 5: doubt that you were an innocent man who had been
38:38
Speaker 5: wrong convicted, and it also identified the actual perpetrator right,
38:43
Speaker 5: which happens a lot in these DNA cases, and sadly,
38:47
Speaker 5: tragically another one of these cases in which the actual
38:49
Speaker 5: perpetrator went on to commit other horrible crimes. Going back
39:06
Speaker 5: to that happy moment, in that happy day when you
39:10
Speaker 5: received a call from the Innocence Project telling you that
39:13
Speaker 5: this was about to.
39:14
Speaker 2: Be Yeah, it was an instant project. Attorney Columns. His
39:20
Speaker 2: last name is Colin. I just called him Colin.
39:23
Speaker 1: But he asked me, say, are you sitting down?
39:24
Speaker 2: And said no. He said, well you need to sit down,
39:27
Speaker 2: and so I sat down. I didn't know what he
39:29
Speaker 2: was going to say, but he said, look, they ran
39:33
Speaker 2: the test and you are innocent. They ran it through colder.
39:37
Speaker 2: I think it's colds and they got a hit FB.
39:42
Speaker 2: So not only am I innocent, but to further prove
39:46
Speaker 2: the point, we know who did it, you see, and
39:49
Speaker 2: he's already locked up, you know, So that was like
39:52
Speaker 2: no doubt at all.
39:55
Speaker 4: What did you do?
39:56
Speaker 2: I died everybody in my phone and it was a
39:59
Speaker 2: you know, I hadn't really had a cell phone before.
40:01
Speaker 2: It was one a flip phone, and I died everybody
40:04
Speaker 2: in that phone, and my phone just died. It just
40:08
Speaker 2: that I had. I was unaware that it was gonna die.
40:11
Speaker 2: Just I'm talking to that because I'm telling everybody what
40:13
Speaker 2: has just happened.
40:14
Speaker 4: And people with people freaking out.
40:16
Speaker 1: Yeah, they were so they were so happy. They was
40:18
Speaker 1: screaming through the phone. I had to pull it away
40:20
Speaker 1: from my ear.
40:21
Speaker 4: Who was the first person you called, well.
40:22
Speaker 2: The first person I called was my cousin that I
40:24
Speaker 2: was living with. She was the immediate one. She was
40:28
Speaker 2: the one who helped me and kept everything where I
40:32
Speaker 2: wouldn't be exposed to a lot of the things that
40:35
Speaker 2: you go through being incarcerated, not yet proving yourself innocent
40:40
Speaker 2: and heard. She would always tell people my cousin. She
40:44
Speaker 2: was stunt on that, and people believed her, and as
40:47
Speaker 2: they got to know me, they believed me, and so
40:50
Speaker 2: life would be simple in that small circle. She even
40:53
Speaker 2: went to neighbors and explaining them that I lived there,
40:57
Speaker 2: because eventually, you know, through the police, they find out
41:00
Speaker 2: that it's a sex offen of living, you know, on
41:02
Speaker 2: their block. And so I ended up meeting all of
41:05
Speaker 2: the neighbors on the block just about and through my
41:09
Speaker 2: interactions they felt safe. Not word it kind of takes
41:15
Speaker 2: the weight off, but you still have that plice thing
41:20
Speaker 2: checking in and the pro thing, and it just.
41:22
Speaker 1: Got too heavy for me at one point.
41:24
Speaker 2: But getting back to that day, that day, I knew
41:28
Speaker 2: that it was over with and it didn't matter what
41:30
Speaker 2: anyone else thought. I knew that I had more than
41:34
Speaker 2: just me in the.
41:36
Speaker 1: Whole wide world. Saying I was innocent.
41:38
Speaker 2: You know, it was the world had turned around now
41:41
Speaker 2: that not the world knew the truth.
41:44
Speaker 10: That's the thing that when you talk to say we surprised,
41:47
Speaker 10: No I knew all along. It's everyone else that now
41:51
Speaker 10: has that proof and doesn't have to take byword for it.
41:55
Speaker 1: It's priceless. This priceless. That's huge.
41:58
Speaker 5: And if you could see what I see now looking
42:00
Speaker 5: at Jerry as he tells that part of the story,
42:02
Speaker 5: it's everything you need to know about why we always
42:05
Speaker 5: will continue to fight for innocence of people like yourself,
42:10
Speaker 5: because it's an indescribable feeling to be around you, know
42:14
Speaker 5: you right now, to be honest with you and see
42:16
Speaker 5: that expression on your face. So there was a there
42:19
Speaker 5: was one more thing that has to happen, right, You
42:22
Speaker 5: had to go back to court so they.
42:23
Speaker 4: Could formally exonerate you, right, And that had to be
42:26
Speaker 4: an incredible day.
42:27
Speaker 5: Can you talk about that day and who you were
42:29
Speaker 5: with and what was it sunny out?
42:31
Speaker 4: Was it raining? What was the whole situation on.
42:34
Speaker 2: That And I tell you what when I when I
42:35
Speaker 2: received that phone call from Insurprisect from Collins, my whole
42:41
Speaker 2: life changed.
42:41
Speaker 1: My whole outlook changed.
42:44
Speaker 2: As a person, I changed because you know, you're not
42:48
Speaker 2: really whole yet. Remember now, I had been battling since
42:52
Speaker 2: day one, screaming and telling everybody I could that I
42:56
Speaker 2: was innocent. But twenty six years you could take a
43:00
Speaker 2: poll out of all the people that I met in
43:02
Speaker 2: my life through that time, which side of the fence
43:05
Speaker 2: they fell on.
43:06
Speaker 1: I believe him or I do not believe him.
43:09
Speaker 2: So you you know that it didn't matter no more
43:12
Speaker 2: because night is the truth is out there.
43:16
Speaker 1: So the lot that they told is being exposed.
43:20
Speaker 4: Take us through that day. Obviously, you didn't just take
43:22
Speaker 4: your ankle brace itself.
43:24
Speaker 1: That was that, you see.
43:25
Speaker 2: Now, That's that was special too, because I had time
43:29
Speaker 2: to prepare for it. I was going to church, you know,
43:31
Speaker 2: I would go to church every Sunday, and that kind
43:35
Speaker 2: of kept me. It gave me some strength through them
43:38
Speaker 2: hard times of being on parole. But when by the
43:42
Speaker 2: time I've done that first interview, man, look, I was prepared,
43:47
Speaker 2: you know, I was ready for what was going to happen.
43:48
Speaker 1: I knew that I was going to go for.
43:50
Speaker 2: The judge, and the judge was going to say you're innocent,
43:53
Speaker 2: And I knew this was coming, so everybody was getting ready.
43:57
Speaker 2: It had the suits out, you know, the car gassed up,
44:01
Speaker 2: so it was like a caravan that went down to
44:04
Speaker 2: twenty sixth of California. I was like a horse ready
44:07
Speaker 2: to come out and run the race.
44:09
Speaker 1: You know. I couldn't wait.
44:11
Speaker 2: And when I walked in there, they had to know
44:13
Speaker 2: something was happening because I was smiling, like I'm smiling now.
44:16
Speaker 1: And so I went through the metal detecting all that.
44:19
Speaker 2: We all went through and you know, waited for my
44:22
Speaker 2: name to be called, went before the judge, and she
44:24
Speaker 2: was smiling too. She was happy because she knew what
44:27
Speaker 2: she was getting ready to do. And a lot of
44:29
Speaker 2: people were saying, what's going on, what's going on? You
44:31
Speaker 2: know people I didn't know this, People that's waiting for
44:34
Speaker 2: their cases to be heard.
44:35
Speaker 1: What's all this? What's going on? I went for the
44:37
Speaker 1: judge and they got to.
44:38
Speaker 2: Hear what was going and by the time I turned around,
44:42
Speaker 2: everybody was clapping a cheering.
44:44
Speaker 4: What did she say?
44:45
Speaker 2: She basically said, you are free, you're innocent, and you know,
44:51
Speaker 2: going about your life and I wish you well.
44:54
Speaker 4: And then did you ever get an apology?
44:56
Speaker 2: Well, actually, by the time I got out of the court.
44:58
Speaker 2: Remember so many people out there. Like I said, everybody
45:01
Speaker 2: started to see what was going on. I'm innocent. He
45:04
Speaker 2: just got proven innocent, and so everybody just got involved.
45:08
Speaker 2: People I didn't even know. They just was happy because
45:11
Speaker 2: they realized because I brought a crowd with me. You know,
45:13
Speaker 2: I had like twenty twenty five family members following me around.
45:18
Speaker 2: And so we went upstairs to the Prosecutors lawl Ibery
45:21
Speaker 2: I think it was, I remember I was there before that.
45:24
Speaker 2: We went into the office and we had a round
45:26
Speaker 2: table meeting between the City of Chicago turns and they
45:31
Speaker 2: apologized for the first time inside closed doors, and they
45:35
Speaker 2: put the file down and they said, look, this is
45:36
Speaker 2: the guy. I think they said, you're gonna bring like
45:39
Speaker 2: three family members. I brought like five, and my pastor
45:42
Speaker 2: went in there with me. Was aus in that table
45:44
Speaker 2: and they was like, once they sought up, it was like,
45:46
Speaker 2: he looks nothing nice.
45:48
Speaker 1: Yeah.
45:49
Speaker 2: So getting back to the identification, he looks nothing like
45:52
Speaker 2: that man in that picture.
45:54
Speaker 10: And that was what punched your ticket from the very beginning. Yes,
45:58
Speaker 10: and then you cant who say, that's a compositive sketch
46:01
Speaker 10: looks like the guy we saw and that. As you said,
46:04
Speaker 10: the train left the station that day and it was
46:08
Speaker 10: no stop.
46:09
Speaker 5: But so this glorious day happened and you were free.
46:13
Speaker 5: And then I got the pleasure of seeing you speak
46:17
Speaker 5: just a few days later, because you came to New
46:19
Speaker 5: York for the NS project Gall I think it was
46:21
Speaker 5: ten years ago, and you got up on stage. You
46:24
Speaker 5: came to New York and this must have been a
46:26
Speaker 5: crazy whirlwind because you were on Colbert right.
46:29
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that was that was fun.
46:30
Speaker 2: But it's a backstory to that because when I got
46:33
Speaker 2: the call and they were telling me that, you know,
46:35
Speaker 2: would you be interested? And I was like, why would
46:39
Speaker 2: I go on a comedy show? Because I didn't know
46:41
Speaker 2: him at the time. How'd I go on a comedy show.
46:43
Speaker 2: There's nothing funny.
46:44
Speaker 1: About what happened to me. Why would I want to
46:47
Speaker 1: go on that?
46:47
Speaker 2: And so they explained it to me, you know, the context,
46:51
Speaker 2: and I said, okay, because you haven't feeled me yet,
46:54
Speaker 2: you know, And so I went and I really realized
46:58
Speaker 2: what it.
46:59
Speaker 1: Really was all about.
47:00
Speaker 2: It worked out pretty well, the message you got out
47:04
Speaker 2: because the innocent project.
47:07
Speaker 1: Man.
47:07
Speaker 2: Look, I tell them all the time that I feel
47:10
Speaker 2: so grateful that they accepted what I was saying in
47:13
Speaker 2: that letter, because all of the letters are not they
47:16
Speaker 2: don't all of them don't going to the ya you know,
47:19
Speaker 2: Yes we will help do your case.
47:21
Speaker 1: Yes, we will help you.
47:22
Speaker 2: Some of them get process out for whatever reason, they
47:26
Speaker 2: can't take everybody.
47:27
Speaker 5: There's just not enough time problem. I mean, that's one
47:30
Speaker 5: of the resources. Resources.
47:32
Speaker 2: That's what's the criteria, you know, whatever it is. It
47:35
Speaker 2: actually it must work because it captured me, you know,
47:39
Speaker 2: it allowed me to go through their process, which is
47:42
Speaker 2: a long process. But they stuck with it and stuck
47:45
Speaker 2: with it, and this is what the outcome is.
47:48
Speaker 5: Yeah, you're here today, right now, and so it's so
47:51
Speaker 5: exciting because today is the day of the twenty fifth
47:53
Speaker 5: anniversary of this is project that we're going to have
47:55
Speaker 5: a big party tonight. You are going to be one
47:57
Speaker 5: of the guests of honor and I'm looking for or
48:00
Speaker 5: to that. You know, we have a tradition here un
48:02
Speaker 5: wrong for conviction, which is that I like to ask
48:06
Speaker 5: you if you have any final thoughts you want to
48:09
Speaker 5: share with the audience, anything at all.
48:11
Speaker 1: Well, all I can say is the n SUR project.
48:14
Speaker 2: The people that I've met that worked in in this project,
48:19
Speaker 2: they took my case and I was helped to be
48:21
Speaker 2: proven innocent. You know, I thank them because it was
48:25
Speaker 2: the support that kept me on. I guess on my
48:29
Speaker 2: trajectory to being a part of society again, because it's
48:33
Speaker 2: a process assimilating back into society and really functioning and
48:40
Speaker 2: living a good life, an important life, doing what you
48:44
Speaker 2: can for other people, and just being the person that
48:48
Speaker 2: you are. You know, I thank the inn a Surproject
48:50
Speaker 2: for that.
48:51
Speaker 1: And I still.
48:53
Speaker 2: Believe that the work that they're doing is God's work.
48:56
Speaker 2: Somebody has to believe in the people who are screen
49:00
Speaker 2: out for help. Everybody is not going to be found innocent.
49:05
Speaker 2: It might not work for everybody, but those who can
49:08
Speaker 2: be saved. You have to continue to do that. And
49:12
Speaker 2: when I speak about my story, I hope that people
49:15
Speaker 2: become interested and play a role in some kind of way,
49:19
Speaker 2: because it's important, it's real me personally. I don't think
49:22
Speaker 2: there's anything wrong with the legal system. I think we
49:25
Speaker 2: have the best legal system. It's just the people that
49:28
Speaker 2: implement it. They get lost along the way and forget
49:31
Speaker 2: what their job really is. If the right people can
49:34
Speaker 2: take the jobs and do the right thing and care
49:37
Speaker 2: about what they're doing instead of trying to benefit from it.
49:41
Speaker 1: You know, maybe it'll work a little better once again.
49:45
Speaker 2: I'm just I'm happy when I think about where I've
49:48
Speaker 2: come from, you know, I'm just and I'm happy to
49:52
Speaker 2: be in New York.
49:52
Speaker 5: I like me, Well, we're happy to have you, and
49:56
Speaker 5: I want to pick up on what you're saying. And
49:58
Speaker 5: I always ask the audience inta, get involved, and you
50:01
Speaker 5: can get involved. The good people at Chicago recently voted
50:04
Speaker 5: out a bad prosecutor the bad da actually right, and
50:07
Speaker 5: voted in a wonderful one. So I think we're going
50:10
Speaker 5: to see some big changes there. And that's one thing
50:13
Speaker 5: you can do. Another thing you can do is go
50:15
Speaker 5: to Innocence Project dot org. Go to your local innocence project,
50:18
Speaker 5: write letters.
50:19
Speaker 1: I mean, just be nosy. What is this thing called exoneration?
50:24
Speaker 4: You learn about it, what these people have.
50:26
Speaker 1: Been exonerating, you know.
50:28
Speaker 2: To get example, I was in the bank in New
50:30
Speaker 2: York and I was talking to one of the Tellisens.
50:33
Speaker 1: She just she said, I'm not trying to be nosy,
50:35
Speaker 1: but what's going on? You know? And I explained it
50:38
Speaker 1: to her. She she was like, you know, I did
50:41
Speaker 1: hear something.
50:41
Speaker 2: About it, but I didn't follow up, but since I
50:44
Speaker 2: met you, I think I will, and so I told
50:46
Speaker 2: her about the INN project. I should just go check
50:48
Speaker 2: it out and see, you know, and you'll find out
50:52
Speaker 2: that when people at least put in an effort to
50:55
Speaker 2: find out what's really going on with these exigner reads
50:59
Speaker 2: this thing called otovation, you know, they become interested because
51:02
Speaker 2: most people are good people and they don't want no
51:04
Speaker 2: one mistreated unfairly, and they do whatever they can do,
51:10
Speaker 2: whether it's a donation or just speak about it in
51:14
Speaker 2: front of people who might be in jeopardy of that happening.
51:16
Speaker 4: In the Maurice.
51:18
Speaker 10: Any last words, Well, Jerry makes some really good points
51:22
Speaker 10: about awareness in Sunshine, But my job on a daily
51:26
Speaker 10: basis is to chronicle cases like Jerry's for the National
51:30
Speaker 10: Registry of Exoneration. Jerry was the two hundredth DNA exoneration
51:34
Speaker 10: just this past recently there was the three hundred and
51:37
Speaker 10: fiftieth DNA exoneration. The National Registry has more than two
51:43
Speaker 10: thousand exonerations since nineteen eighty nine. These are non DNA
51:48
Speaker 10: and DNA. To raise the awareness in the public's eye
51:52
Speaker 10: about these cases can only create the sort of sunshine
51:58
Speaker 10: I think that well produce change within the criminal justice system.
52:08
Speaker 5: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you
52:11
Speaker 5: get your podcasts.
52:12
Speaker 4: It really helps.
52:13
Speaker 5: And I'm a proud donor to the Nocence Project and
52:16
Speaker 5: I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very
52:19
Speaker 5: important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go
52:23
Speaker 5: to Innocenceproject dot org to learn how to donate and
52:26
Speaker 5: get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor
52:29
Speaker 5: Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in the show is
52:32
Speaker 5: by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure
52:36
Speaker 5: to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on
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Speaker 5: Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm
52:43
Speaker 5: is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association
52:47
Speaker 5: with Signal Company Number one