Latest / WHAT I'VE LEARNT / What I've Learnt - Dr. Ginni Mansberg

Transcript

What I've Learnt - Dr. Ginni Mansberg · WHAT I'VE LEARNT

• 0:03
  SPEAKER_01: Dr.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_01: Ginny Mansberg is a well-known celebrity doctor in Australia.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: She is a Sydney GP on TV with Embarrassing Bodies Down Under, Channel 9, Sunrise and Morning Show Channel 7, Things You Can't Talk About on TV, and so many other amazing performances and representations of her important work, which is telling people how to improve their lives and using her incredible knowledge as a doctor to inform and educate.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: Part of that is her latest book, The New Teenage, How to Support Our Teens and How to Help Them to Become Happy and Healthy Adults.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's full of gems, tips and insights so that parents and teenagers can navigate the trials and tribulations that can often arise.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: So she asks me the questions like why are today's parents feeling like failures, worried that their teens will go off the rails, won't get through school, won't find a job, or will be overwhelmed by stress.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: With so many experts out there offering conflicting advice, how do parents know where to turn and who to trust?
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: Now Ginny's also had her own challenges and definitely risen to reclaim, regroup, and recalibrate because she's somebody who seems to be very resourceful.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I'd like to welcome Dr.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: Ginny Mansberg to the What I've Learnt podcast.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: Hey Deb, how are you going?
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: Very good, Ginny.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: So lovely to see you.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: And we have actually done a few interviews before, and so lovely to see you again.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me a little bit about your own journey, you know, how you came to where you are.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, oh wow, where do I start?
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I've got three kids, and they are now 28 and 27.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: They live in the States.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so being in the heart of the pandemic, as we're chatting, I haven't seen it for ages.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: I have a 24-year-old, but I also got three extra kids as a wedding present for my second wedding.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I've got a 21-year-old, a 19-year-old, and a 16-year-old as well.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and they're gorgeous.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm a doctor, I kind of fell into a whole lot of kind of call it a hub and spoke, slushy kind of career where I needed to leverage my skills as a doctor and do things that I could do from home because I kept having like nanny disasters that were like near-death experiences for my children.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: So kind of went into a journalism degree, ended up doing writing, ended up doing some magazine stuff.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: Then kind of one person said, Oh, can we borrow you for a TV thing?
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, leveraging my magazine stuff.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, Yeah, that's fine.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I launched a TV career, never really thought about anything too much, but have ended up with this kind of cute, yeah, hub and smoke career where I've got like now a skincare company as well, which is, I guess, my main gig because it started out of a science of medicine and the desire to not look like um a pizza face on TV.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: What I love about you is every time I speak to you, you you're first of all, you adapt brilliantly.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: You're very good at morphing.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I know that you know you came out of quite a complex situation where then you met your new partner and you married and you have these three other beautiful kids as well.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: So you're actually the mother to six children, in effect, of sorts, but you seem to have a philosophy that I think many of us certainly admire and respect, and hopefully can also apply it to our own lives, which is being able to morph and to be somewhat of a chameleon and to not say, well, I'm one thing and that's what I am and that's it.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think that's, you know, because you were doing this a while ago, but it seems to be something that people are definitely embracing.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: I think so.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think that, you know, the way our media is, a politician said something back in 1982, and then forever they are unfit for um public service and public life.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like that's just really sad because the best of us is when we learn from every mistake, every fall flat on your face, every time you misjudge somebody, misjudged a situation, got something appallingly wrong, behaved in a way that was beneath you.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: Your role is to pick up, examine faithfully, you know, look to your heart as to whether you've done the right thing, make sure your moral compass is, you know, firmly, you know, pointed north and adapt.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: That's how we work.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my goodness, I would not want to be judged for the 1982 version of me.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: It was not pretty.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: Really, it's a human condition, isn't it?
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: To to be able to listen, learn, fall over, and not actually suffer from so much guilt and uh, you know, I suppose self-judgment, which is not healthy.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: If you can see each terrible thing that happens to you as an opportunity to learn, rather than being judgmental on each other for things that happened a long time ago, the idea is now to say, I'm on a constant journey.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to be a better version of myself.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: And the way you do that is to make mistakes and then you learn from them because if you don't, no one ever learned from a mistake they didn't make, right?
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's absolutely true.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: And can you just to that point, is there a particular time that you can reflect on, which I know you and I have discussed in the past, where one of your greatest lessons learned?
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think there's something you could point to, either career, personal?
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, the hardest thing I think that we've both been through is becoming a single mother.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's not anything anybody aspires to when they're um six years old and planning a happily ever after after a golden carriage wedding.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: But particularly for a lot of women who are raised in our generation of self-doubt, our best asset was our husband, whatever it was, the ability to pick yourself up and go, okay, what do I need to survive?
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: What's math?
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: And then how am I going to go and get the money that sits on that right hand side of the ledger?
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what do I earn now?
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: What do I do to earn money?
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I needed to work out.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I had to work seven days a week if that's what it took, because you know, I wanted my kids to be able to have braces and and you know, school books and stuff like that.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: So um, yeah, I went out and worked and leveraged a whole lot of skills that I probably didn't really believe in my heart that I had, but actually turned out to be okay at a whole lot of stuff that wifey me didn't really believe that I could do.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's interesting you say that.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: I had a recent interview with Christina Hobbes, who heads up Verve Super, and she talks about this issue and how it's just it's endemic that a lot of women are completely ill-equipped.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: Should something go awry, they feel that they're always going to be under an umbrella of sorts, which is part of our culture.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: And she started this whole new Verve Superannuation, which is focused on equipping, educating women about this exact issue.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_01: And you're a living example of somebody, as am I, who have who adapted and morphed and went, you know what, I'll find a way through.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: And in fact, it's very empowering, isn't it?
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: The best thing ever.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: Because when you're comfortable and you don't have to get out of your comfort zone, you don't push yourself, you don't stretch yourself, you don't try and strive for anything better because the status quo is fine.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: There is nothing like raw, unadulterated need to drive your ambition.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: So, Jeannie, it's it's interesting too, because you've used a lot of what you've learned in your own life.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: And obviously, I'm assuming you would apply it to your practice and to your patients, but also to some of the books you've written, and many of which are really inspirational as well.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: Talk to me about how lessons learnt fuel and or inform uh your practice, for example, and then we can talk about how it's informed your books as well.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: So you graduate from medicine.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: In my case, I was like 22 and went to my first year in hospital at the ripe old age of 23 with yay amount of life experience that you could put on a postage stand.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then you get thrown into the world of general practice, and I'm kind of embarrassed now about the kind of advice I was giving to people, which I think a lot of doctors still do.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like you shouldn't eat a packet of chips lunch, you should eat a tuna salad.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: And everyone's going, Oh, really?
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: I had no idea.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: Who'd have thought?
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: I could just lose weight by doing that, said no one ever.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but you know, um, you just come to the table with all of this ridiculous advice, and life brings you and failures bring you compassion and kindness, and I also think empathy, um, the ability to genuinely listen and listen with all ears, and then not to give stupid advice, but rather to try and work with the patient to meet them where they're at, to say, okay, if you know, if you're if you can't give up chips, could you have like three-quarters of a pack of chips and then have an apple?
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and one of the biggest teachers actually was going and working in the addiction medicine.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so that's a whole funny story.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: How I ended up back in clinical medicine working for a friend who was desperate for a locum.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: He had um a methadone prescribing practice in King's Cross, which is in like the heart of the red light district in Sydney.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: And and I just thought, are you kidding me?
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like I was this little Jewish housewife, like, really?
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna go work with heroin addicts.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think so.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: But I did it for him because he was such a great guy.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I really, you know, his locum had pulled out.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: He was wanting to go on this expensive holiday.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: He had like one week's notice to find someone.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I actually fell in love with that kind of medicine.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: But the first day, this guy who became such a huge mentor in my life in every way and on every level, he said to me, if your aim is to get people who are currently heroin addicts to want a picket fenced life, they don't want that.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: So you've got to work with them where they're at.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: If every win is a win, there is no failure, there are just degrees of success.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: So if they are in contact with their kids who are in foster care up in, you know, the middle Mackay in Queensland, that's great.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: If they're not stealing, that's great.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: If they've got a friend who's not just a colleague that they go and, you know, roll little old ladies and get their handbags with, if they've got a genuine friend, that's great.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: If they're accessing services and getting clean needles, let's call that a win.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: So just spot the wins, broaden your horizon and take the wins where they come and meet people where they're at.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: And if they feel that they're not judged by you, they'll come back.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: And then the doors open.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: And when the doors open, you can really help them.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: To me, that was just like the whole ball game.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: It was so good.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I've taken that to the rest of my practice.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so it sounds like that was one of the greatest lessons learned for you is to open your mind.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: But had you, I mean, had you not grabbed that moment and that opportunity, which is another lesson learned, you would not have had the opportunity to experience such an extraordinary window into a new world, which then fueled and facilitated you to apply it to your own practice and benefit your own patients.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: And it's still, you know, some of the most fulfilling work I have ever done in my life.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's been absolutely amazing, but I love where I work now in my clinical work, which is in a beautiful part of Sydney with beautiful patients.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: Often I will see three generations of a single family across cousins and aunties and uncles, and you get to know them over a long period of time.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: I now have girls who are pregnant who I remember when they were little.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's just a really special, beautiful thing that I do.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so privileged.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: So they're very fortunate to have you as their doctor because it is, it's hard to find a really good, connected, empathetic doctor who actually wants to stay with that very traditional notion of staying with the family and getting to know everybody and the different generations.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: Very special.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'm very excited to talk about this book because I think you've tapped into something.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: I think there are a lot of very scared parents and very scared kids out there at the moment.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: The pandemic has obviously multiplied, I suppose, the fear factor, which some of the issues are just normal everyday issues.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: And clearly you wrote the book not knowing there'd be a pandemic emerging, I'm sure.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: But let's talk about initially uh one of the things that caught me was the five C's you referred to in the book.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: Can we talk a little bit about that?
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so um we kept coming up with the fact that there were so many different, highly specific situations of parenting that would require very specific solutions.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: But we came up with a framework to address everything that hopefully, if you put the five C's into place, you can work out what to do in any situation without having to go to, you know, a psychologist or a psychiatrist.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: So the first one is connection.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: And it's very hard to start having a good connection with your kids if they're 19 and you've never had it.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's obviously great to do it at 10, 8, you know, where they feel like they can really talk to you, but it's never too late to start.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: And we've got a whole lot of tips about how to be connected to your kids, um, which I think is really important.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: The second one is compassion.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I think um we've already spoken today a lot about compassion and how important it is just as a human in your relationship with all other humans.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: But if you don't see your kid as a psycho who's trying to kill your life, um, but just somebody who's maybe going through a few issues of their own, if you come at everything with a compassionate framework, I think it will really help frame the argument and they will stop seeing you as their executioner, as your inquisitor, but as your as on being on their team.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: Because let's face it, you are definitely every parent, I've never met a parent in my life who is trying to subvert and harm their kids.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: We might all have different ideas about what's best for them and how to get there, but we really want what's best for our kids.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: I just don't think we do, right?
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that compassion will really help.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: I think the collaboration piece is really important, and that is based on two things.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: Number one, you want their input, um, because if they are giving their input instead of feeling like you're just the controller and coming down on their heads, then they'll be a little bit more engaged.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: But also, you are trying to pass that competency batten from you to them.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like, of course, when they're a child, you controlled absolutely everything, but very soon they're going to be an adult.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: And even if you want to, you cannot control them anymore.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: You can't, although I know people do, go to their boss and go, how can you treat my beautiful son that way?
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: Or you can't, you're not really meant to go to their university lecturer and go, I don't think he deserved a, you know, a a mere credit on that assignment.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I know people do, but it doesn't help them, right?
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: So you're trying to pass the competency pattern.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: So getting them involved in trying to work out how you're going to move through a particular situation is really helpful.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: I think confidence is also really um important.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes you do need to sort of fake it till you make it.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: Particularly, women are often not confident, but they can spot your lack of confidence a mile off.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: And dogs will only, you know, dig at a fence that they think they can breach.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: If you have a concrete steel rim fence, forced fence, they are not digging at that fence.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: So you've got to puff up your chest and pretend that, like, no, this is it, this is it, not going anywhere.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think that is really important because you are the solid rock beneath their feet.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and the other thing is some competence, because I think if you go and say things to them that they know are wrong, then you lose your credibility in their eyes.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so we wanted to give you that competence piece by giving you some information.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like, for example, none of them are on Facebook, right?
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: So don't talk about, oh, Facebook is just making you into a real bitch, right?
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: Because they're not on Facebook.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: You look like an idiot.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, you look like an idiot.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: So you might need to kind of maybe do some homework and find out what is actually happening with your kids so that you don't fall flat and like the conversation is over before it's even started.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think all of those points are extremely valid, and as a mother of children and one who is still a teenager, to relinquish control but still be there in the sidecar.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: I always say, listen, I'm in the sidecar, right?
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: If you need me, just let me know.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: You can drive, you can take the reins, but I need to, yeah, I'm beside you if you need me.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: And then obviously the next step, as they get older, as you and I know, they still need you.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: And they still call you every day and go, what do you think about this?
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: And but that's about relationships and connection.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: And if you have that, that's there forever, I think.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: I like to think about the difference between um an executive role and a board role.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: So what I mean is with an executive role, you're running the show.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's all on you.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: If there's a fail, it's on you.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: If there's um, if things don't work out, if you break the budget, it's it's on you, right?
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: And you're trying to pass the bat into the kids and transition yourself onto a board role, which you hope they will be basically calling you often for advice, but it's on their terms, right?
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: They ask you for the advice they want, and other stuff they're just going to tell you.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: And your job is just to go, hmm, you know, how did that make you feel?
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: Or that's great, honey.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: I am so thrilled for you.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: But you're incredibly interested, you're incredibly concerned.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: And if the really if the ship's starting to go down, you'll be there, boots and all, to try and help them.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: But it's really all about them now.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: They're still steering the ship, and you're just the um very concerned and loving advisor invited in for certain projects.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's true, and it's interesting.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: If you look at the the US, for example, um, those kids are geared emotionally by 18 to you know uh leave the coup and to go on and to be very independent.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, even if you look at some of these Olympians, and I was saying this, a lot of them are 19 and 20, they're extraordinary.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: Some are studying while training to be Olympians, and and you know, they're in Tokyo on their own without the sort of support of their families due as a result of the pandemic, obviously.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, really, we sometimes I think in Australia there is we don't have that US, you know, off you go to college vibe.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's like so there's a there's that you don't have that marker in the same way.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that cultivates the notion of um maybe keeping them closer to the nest than is not always in their interest and maybe not in ours.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that it's that balance because it's not as delineated as it is in other countries.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: But meanwhile, in the States, like here, it's competitive on a level that we didn't know, right?
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, when we went to school and most of the people who are listening to us today who are parents and we did our schools in maybe the 80s, 90s, 2000s.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: We were um like you you had end-of-year exams.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like whatever else happened between then and like it didn't you didn't have this competition, you were not told in your seven that this science exam is the most important thing you've ever done in your life, and if you want to be a doctor, like get the science right in your seven.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: No, I don't remember anyone doing coaching.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: I don't remember that.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, tutoring, no, it wasn't.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, not at the level, I I think the competitive element's a very important factor here because what you know, going back to where I started, there's an there's an this incredible element of fear and and absolute terror in some of these young kids' eyes.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm not going to be good enough ever, no matter what I do.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I think this has got this culture's emerged sort of in the last decade or so.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure what has driven it, but it is toxic.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I've seen a lot of fallout and a lot of kids damaged by the expectation, both public and private schooling.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's across the board.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not sure where it's emerged from, but it's definitely very destructive for a lot of kids.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: And others push themselves to the limit and then crash and burn by the age of 20.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: So we don't want that either, you know, or 21.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: And it is interesting, Dad, because you know, I think the schools will tell you we don't put the pressure on them.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: We tell them, you know, we're we're investing all this money into their health and well-being and their emotional resilience, and we're doing all of these other courses.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: We tell them there's, you know, it's it's not all about the VCE, it's not all about the HSE.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we tell them all the time.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: And then the parents are also sort of, you know, they're also sitting in my surgery, sort of saying, You, I just want you to be happy, darling.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: I just want you to be happy.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not coming from the parents.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I totally believe that.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think they're saying that in my surgery and they're coming home and then saying to your kids, their kids, you didn't get a 90%.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: Well, shame on you.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: They're not saying that.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: But the kids feel that their success requires particular things.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: They don't have the confidence that they have, and they feel so much more pressure than we felt.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um because we felt when we went to school that pretty much if you did a bit of study via VCE or your HSE, you were going to get into uni.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: And the only question you were, you know, was which one?
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: The only people who didn't go to uni were the ones who didn't want to go to uni, right?
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: And some of those were fine.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: And they not only that, some of them ended up exceptionally successful, actually.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I look at some of my friends who didn't go to uni but ended up, you know, being incredibly successful in other arenas.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: But we we have to change.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: The culture is toxic, it is really unhealthy.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: My kids and your kids are almost we're sort of through the loop in a way because they're heading out into the big wide world.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: How do we change this culture?
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I gather that's what your book is referring to, trying to equip parents to protect but equip the kids as well.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I think that um one of the things to remember is it's not always what you say, it's what you do as well.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: So if you say to your kids, I just want you to be happy and I don't care about school, but let me arrange some math, science, English, and you know, economics tutoring for you because you've hit your seven now, it's really important.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: There's a second message that the kids are receiving.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: If you only get into the C team in soccer or um AFL, and your mum goes, That's fine, I'm so happy for you, but how about we get you some AFL coaching?
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: How about I sign you up for an extra course?
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: There's a second bit of messaging that's going on there, which is um, and when your mum just is so excited when you get a 99%, and then you get a 60%, and like, don't worry about it, darling.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: I just want you to be happy.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: There are second messages.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: So you need to not just say it, but you need to believe it as well, that there is more to life for your kid than just having some very narrow metrics of success that I still think can be achieved.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't think you need to go to uni even now.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think, you know, um in my skincare company, we've employed a lot of people who don't have uni degrees and they've gone on, you know, head of customer service, head of operations, have not had um, you know, uni degrees, and I don't think they're necessary at all, personally.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we do need to be more mindful of the things that um employers, uh employers are looking for now, which is your, you know, your leadership skills, your creativity, your ability to get on with other people, your resilience.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: Those are things that are actually being sought in the workplace now.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: And they're things that we can really help our kids with that have got nothing to do with the A grade in soccer or the top class in maths, or a really great mark in an English assignment.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: They those things don't help your kids get to where you really, really want them to be, which is successful humans.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: I I think that's a very, very important point because the more and more I listened to, in fact, I have you know one child who who basically came to us and said, Look, I need a year off, I need to explore, and I need to go work and be in the workforce and just be.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_01: And it was the best thing that they could have done because it actually allowed them to just stop and think and reflect and go, wait, I'm just gonna earn some money, just see the big wide world out there, and just make some decisions after that.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: And it was seen, and I would say there was probably 99% of kids in that year that did not do that, many of whom are bailing, some of whom are bailing on their courses.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: But it's about giving them some choice and it not being this sort of tunnel that drives them into this very myopic way of living, which is that tunnel vision is, as you say, it doesn't necessarily make them good humans.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that if we can change the discussion, if we can change the dialogue, and very much I think what you referred to in the book is just allow the nurturing element to emerge organically and not to be driven too hard by all of this culture, which do you think it's coming from the schools?
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: Where is this crazy culture coming from?
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, as you say, we didn't have that.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: I think subliminally it is coming a little bit from the parents, even though they say, you know, oh no, I just want you to be happy, sweetheart.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: There's a little bit of subliminal culture coming in there because we are driven by fear that if our kids don't get into a good uni first year out of high school, that it's game over, Red Rover, and it's not.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: You can see the kids in year eight and year nine who are going to be successful, and it's got nothing to do with their marks.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's the fact that they walk into your house and say, Hi, Mrs.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: Marks, nice to meet you and shake your hand, and you're just going, Oh, where's my kid doing that?
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like I was have a handshaking lesson, you know.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, polite, yes.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, and they look you in the eye and they say, Thanks for having me at the end of it.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: And the other ones, you know, your kid goes, Oh, Tom's gone.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, what happened?
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, mum texted him, he's you know, she was in the in the driveway, and all of a sudden the kid's gone.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: And you're just going, kind of not your best bet, as you know, for as a future investment in your well-being, you want your kids to be not only resilient, but like good with people.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: Those are things that are going to stand them in good stead.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: But if they take two extra years to get into their law degree, I'm telling you, my kids, one of my kids has done a law degree, one has done a science, uh, uh, uh finance degree.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: He wouldn't even, they wouldn't have a clue who did what before.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know, whether they did an arts degree for two years, you wouldn't have a clue.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't matter.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, all that matters is are they just impressive people to talk to?
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: Are they, can they smile?
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: Can they look you in the eyes?
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: Can they hold a conversation instead of just like grumbling and saying one-word syllables and looking into their phone?
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: Those are things we can help them with.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: I do think it comes from the from the schools because the schools are are ranked now and that's all public.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you know, the schools are competitive and they get their funding based on the number of students they have.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think that is there a little bit, even though they say, no, we're investing in, you know, the well-being of the kids, they're not.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I think there's a lot of pressure on the kids, and then kids just whip themselves up into a frenzy.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: And we we've seen that in trolling on social media, how people can whip themselves up into a frenzy about things that they didn't even know they were angry with, and now they're just shouting at somebody they don't even know on social media.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: There is a whole lot of groupthink that happens there, and it all it takes is for one person to go crazy and yeah, and it all unravels for an entire group.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: One person comes in and says, Well, I studied for two in the morning last night, and um, and everybody else has a panic attack.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: I think also uh the other interesting factor to reflect on is much of what they're learning in the education system is also being reviewed and is somewhat archaic and somewhat irrelevant, which I find quite extraordinary.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: And it is, there is a lot of discussion around this, and uh, you know, it some things you need, like you need your maths, you need your English, but there are some things that that I mean, the choice is getting a little bit better, but really they need you know, finance education around how to manage their future.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: Imagine if we'd had that, you know, creativity.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: Can you imagine how to be Steve Jobs?
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like if you're gonna have a startup tomorrow, what's your startup gonna be in?
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like how are these kids learning to think creatively and just spot problems and to identify ways to solve problems?
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: Now that doesn't fit neatly into an economics course.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's pretty hard to set an exam to assess somebody for creativity.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: But how are we helping our kids thinking in a way that is problem solving?
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: We've got climate change, we've got issues that these kids deeply care about and that are huge problems for um our world.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: And we're not teaching them ways to use their mind to help them to solve those problems.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: That I feel like American um uh unis are better at than our unis, which again are very prescriptive courses.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'm very excited about this book.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: I think it really taps into some important issues.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: I think that you are somebody who is a bit of a trailblazer in this area, and I hope that you come out with another book for the 20-year-olds.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: Really, I think that's our next challenge because they're they're our next gen.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: And you and I both have 20-year-olds, and that's that's also quite exciting time to see what they do.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's amazing.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's so good, not least of which because they've moved out and I'm not doing anything watching for them.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's like when I ring them, it's like, hey, how's it going?
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: What are you having for dinner tonight?
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: They show me photos of their dinner on WhatsApp.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, awesome.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not having that, and I'm not cooking for you.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: That is so good.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: Love it.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: And you don't have to go, sorry, um mum, sorry, um, you don't have to have, I've got the vegan option, the vegetarian option, the gluten-free option.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm sure you're the same.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I literally would be like, so okay, so no meat for you, no pasta for you, no, like all they've all got different requirements, and you just it is pretty funny.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_00: The cafe, yes.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_00: Uh with mom's cafe anymore.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, no, we're the 20-year-olds are just your best kids.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: They're just like they're fun to hang out with, they're great to have a Zoom drinks with, um, even in the States, and we play online cards.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's awesome, but um, don't need to do their washing.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: So um, you know, living the dream.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: Love it.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you so much for joining me on the What I've Learnt podcast.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: Love to chat to you as always, and you take care and you enjoy that freedom inverted commas, even though I know you're in Sydney.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: But that, as we as I always say, this two will pass.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: And and I look forward to seeing what you do next.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Dan.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: Pleasure.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much for listening.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: The What I've Learned podcast will now be coming to you weekly with new episodes released every Tuesday.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'm blessed to have so many wonderful guests coming on the show.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: So check out my What I've Learned Instagram for updates.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: Meanwhile, stay tuned, kind, and curious.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: Love death.