Latest / The Book Deal / Agony Aunt Hayley Scrivenor on 'bloody mindedness' for writing success, live at Writing NSW

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Agony Aunt Hayley Scrivenor on 'bloody mindedness' for writing success, live at Writing NSW · The Book Deal

• 0:09
  Tina Strachan: This is the Book Deal podcast where you will discover the inspiring stories behind your favorite books.
• 0:15
  Natasha Rai: We interview seasoned and debut authors, as well as publishing industry professionals to bring you the best tips and advice on
• 0:22
  x: how to get that elusive book deal.
• 0:25
  x: So no matter what's.
• 0:26
  x: Stage of writing your at.
• 0:28
  x: We've got you covered.
• 0:29
  x: I'm Tina Strachan.
• 0:30
  x: I'm Madeleine Cleary.
• 0:32
  x: And I'm Natasha Rai.
• 0:34
  x: And join us as we pull back the curtain of published authors
• 0:37
  Madeleine Cleary: one deal at a time.
• 0:43
  Madeleine Cleary: The book Deal podcast acknowledges the traditional owners, the land and waters, which it's recorded on and pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging.
• 0:56
  Track 1: Hello, Tina.
• 0:56
  Track 2: Hello, Madeline, how are you?
• 0:58
  Track 2: Happy December to you.
• 1:00
  Track 2: Happy end of 2025.
• 1:01
  Track 1: Yeah, we made it.
• 1:02
  Track 1: What a busy, incredible, amazing year 2025 has been.
• 1:06
  Track 2: For so many reasons and our debut year as well.
• 1:10
  Track 2: It's come to the end.
• 1:11
  Track 2: Can you believe that we started this pod as yet to be published authors and now we are well and truly published
• 1:19
  Track 1: Especially you with two books out and another one very, actually, when is your third book coming?
• 1:24
  Track 2: yeah, really soon, actually, um, in about six weeks.
• 1:28
  Track 2: Book three Nika in the great search book, three of the Wild Zoo series.
• 1:33
  Track 2: So end of January.
• 1:34
  Track 2: Um, that'll be a nice little new Year's beginning of term, uh, book for everybody.
• 1:39
  Track 2: But, yeah, an incredible year and I was gonna ask you as we, um, quickly record this little.
• 1:46
  Track 2: Catch up ahead of our very last episode or regular episode for the year.
• 1:52
  Track 1: Hmm.
• 1:53
  Track 2: Um, what's, what's been your highlight?
• 1:55
  Track 2: Madeline, I've given you no time to think about this.
• 1:56
  Track 2: What's your highlight of this year, your debut year?
• 1:59
  Track 1: the highlight.
• 2:01
  Track 1: I, I don't wanna sound like, like a broken record but it's, I think it's just meeting with readers.
• 2:07
  Track 1: Like, I think I still get a thrill every time someone says.
• 2:10
  Track 1: I read your book and I loved it and that's quite special.
• 2:13
  Track 1: I was, I did my last event on Monday night at Cheltenham Library and I had, I just had a chat with the two people in who were sitting in the front row, both who had read the book and both said, oh, I've come along because.
• 2:27
  Track 1: I really enjoyed the book and wanted to hear from you, and I think it's nice when you're at that stage of your events where, yeah, people have engaged with it and then you can have a chat about it and it's, Hmm, it's just a thrill.
• 2:39
  Track 1: I don't know What about you, Tina?
• 2:41
  Track 2: Uh, yeah, similar.
• 2:43
  Track 2: I think, um, I was just, I hadn't even thought of this for myself actually before I asked you, but, um, when you were saying meeting with readers, so likewise for me, a lot of my readers are younger kids though, which is.
• 2:54
  Track 1: Hmm
• 2:55
  Track 2: Um, very special.
• 2:56
  Track 2: And I have to say, probably, I mean, there's been so many highlights, right?
• 2:59
  Track 2: So many, like, you know, book launching, launching at Melbourne Zoo, getting to travel, being, getting to do so many amazing things as part of this opportunity.
• 3:08
  Track 2: But, um, probably seeing kids at book week dress up in, you know, zoo characters or dressing up as Nika from the My Wilder Zoo books or like, and like the Animals from the Zoo.
• 3:21
  Track 2: It just, honestly, that was just, that blew me away.
• 3:23
  Track 2: I didn't.
• 3:24
  Track 2: I really quite expect that.
• 3:25
  Track 2: And um, yeah, that's, how special is that, that someone's gone, I'm gonna dress up as this character.
• 3:31
  Track 2: It's, uh, it's an honor actually, isn't it?
• 3:33
  Track 2: So.
• 3:34
  Track 1: That is so cool.
• 3:35
  Track 1: Uh, I wish someone would dress up as like Madame Lauren from the Butterfly
• 3:38
  Track 2: I would love to.
• 3:39
  Track 2: I mean, I can do, I do.
• 3:41
  Track 2: I need an excuse, so some kind of event.
• 3:45
  Track 2: I can come along where I can do that, please.
• 3:49
  Track 2: But anyway, an incredible year, huge year, and we just wanted to jump on to say a big thank you to our listeners for making it such a huge, wonderful year and for tuning in and it's been.
• 3:59
  Track 2: Our absolute pleasure, not just yours and mine, but Tash as well.
• 4:02
  Track 2: Natasha, I, I'm part of the book deal team, and, um, it's been, we just absolutely love this, don't we?
• 4:09
  Track 2: It's joyful.
• 4:11
  Track 1: That's been a, it's been a highlight, I think, having the podcast and catching up with you ladies.
• 4:16
  Track 1: And we, we've been joking on our little chat because we always start our voice notes with Hello ladies.
• 4:21
  Track 1: It's become a bit of a thing.
• 4:22
  Track 1: We'll have to do a bit of a mashup, I think, of all the hello ladies.
• 4:26
  Track 1: But it's been so good and the fact that we all got to meet in Sydney together, the three of us last week was just awesome too.
• 4:33
  Track 1: We had a long lunch, a few wines pre, pre-recording as well.
• 4:38
  Track 1: Not that anyone could tell,
• 4:41
  Track 2: Now we were highly professional.
• 4:42
  Track 1: highly professional and of course we, um, were able to interview the amazing Haley Scrivener, our resident agony aunt on all writing woes, um, uh, at the writing New South Wales, which is so cool.
• 4:55
  Track 1: And we're gonna air this episode for you, but we have to warn you that the sound is not as great as.
• 5:03
  Track 1: You know, our normal episodes, but do persist because there's some fantastic tips in there.
• 5:08
  Track 2: Yes.
• 5:08
  Track 2: Yeah.
• 5:08
  Track 2: Yeah.
• 5:09
  Track 2: Because it was a live episode, obviously we're working with, um, different, different mics and different speakers, but it was, yeah, wonderful.
• 5:14
  Track 2: Hay was incredible.
• 5:16
  Track 2: Thank you.
• 5:16
  Track 2: Hay.
• 5:17
  Track 2: We know she listens to the pod.
• 5:18
  Track 2: Um, yeah, we thoroughly enjoyed hanging out with Hayley for the evening and with some of our listeners who are in the audience.
• 5:25
  Track 2: And um, Hailey as our agony aunt.
• 5:27
  Track 2: Uh.
• 5:28
  Track 2: And with lots of, uh, curly questions and really interesting questions too.
• 5:32
  Track 2: And Hailey's answers were just amazing.
• 5:35
  Track 2: I could listen to her all night long.
• 5:37
  Track 1: Oh, she was so, so good.
• 5:39
  Track 1: Um, and Lindsay, who's one of our.
• 5:41
  Track 1: Big, um, listeners of the podcast brought her whole family from South Africa too along, which was amazing.
• 5:48
  Track 1: So thanks so much Lindsay for doing that.
• 5:51
  Track 1: Um, we had some great debut writers from our year 2025, but also 2026 and Lindsay's one of those.
• 5:57
  Track 1: And um, yeah, such a great, great sort of atmosphere I think on a very hot day in Sydney for me.
• 6:04
  Track 1: I was not used to it.
• 6:07
  Track 2: Oh no, it was a beautiful evening.
• 6:09
  Track 2: Yeah.
• 6:09
  Track 2: Like you said, catching up with 26 day boo, some 25 day boo crew that we hadn't met in person before either.
• 6:15
  Track 2: Uh, lots of listeners and lots of new listeners as well.
• 6:17
  Track 2: And the writing New South Wales team was, uh, incredible.
• 6:21
  Track 2: Um, but that yeah.
• 6:22
  Track 2: Mm-hmm
• 6:26
  Track 1: break?
• 6:26
  Track 2: Yes.
• 6:27
  Track 2: Well, like we said, so that's gonna, this episode, the live episode's, our last of our regulars, and then next week we have a special Christmas Well, it's a Christmas special, isn't it?
• 6:35
  Track 2: Um, we're gonna call it.
• 6:37
  Track 2: Do you wanna tell us about our special Book Club episode next week?
• 6:39
  Track 2: Madeline?
• 6:40
  Track 1: It's the first time we're doing it.
• 6:41
  Track 1: It's a spoiler book club with Kate Mildenhall um, on the hiding place.
• 6:46
  Track 1: So spoilers are allowed.
• 6:48
  Track 1: Um, I'll be doing a short interview with Kate and then we'll be opening it up for questions.
• 6:52
  Track 1: So I'm really, really excited for it.
• 6:54
  Track 1: It's gonna be fun.
• 6:55
  Track 2: That's so exciting.
• 6:56
  Track 2: So sorry that we have to do an edit now, or maybe we don't.
• 7:00
  Track 2: Everyone, I just have to let my dog in.
• 7:03
  Track 1: Oh my gosh.
• 7:03
  Track 1: I could see your dog in the background.
• 7:05
  Track 1: We're not cutting that.
• 7:06
  Track 1: That's amazing.
• 7:07
  Track 2: in Oh, oh, okay.
• 7:11
  Track 2: Book club sounds incredible.
• 7:12
  Track 2: Um, I can't wait.
• 7:13
  Track 2: It's going to be such a great e and I'm sure hopefully we can do more of them next year, but definitely, um, listeners, let us know, um, if you, if you want us to do more of the live shows or agony arts or the book clubs, we are really, yeah.
• 7:26
  Track 2: I appreciate anybody's, everybody's feedback or, um.
• 7:30
  Track 2: Little tips maybe for next year because um, yeah, we just have so much fun.
• 7:33
  Track 2: But, um, really would like to, you know, provide all our listeners with things that they're looking for as well.
• 7:39
  Track 2: Um, but after our special book club, we will be having a break.
• 7:42
  Track 2: Uh, the three of us will be having a break for a little while over Christmas and the silly season, uh, coming back probably the end of January.
• 7:49
  Track 2: And in that time though, don't worry, we'll still be on air.
• 7:53
  Track 2: Obviously we've got a whole back catalog of over 60 episodes, but.
• 7:58
  Track 2: We will be going into our summer series, so, which we are going to replay some of our most popular episodes from the last year and a half.
• 8:07
  Track 2: Oh, hang on.
• 8:07
  Track 2: Yeah.
• 8:07
  Track 2: Year and a half.
• 8:08
  Track 2: Uh, so we might tell you what they're, you'll see for yourself.
• 8:12
  Track 2: We're going to, um, so every week there'll be a special, um, replay of some of our most popular episodes, which are very fun and very exciting, and I'm looking forward to revisiting them as well.
• 8:23
  Track 1: I am too.
• 8:24
  Track 1: Yes.
• 8:24
  Track 1: I'm gonna put that on my listening.
• 8:26
  Track 1: And how cool was it to see all the Spotify unwrapped with book deal in the top five podcasts for some listeners.
• 8:31
  Track 1: So thank you for sharing that.
• 8:32
  Track 1: That's awesome.
• 8:34
  Track 2: I love that.
• 8:35
  Track 2: Do you have Spotify, Madeline,
• 8:36
  Track 1: I do,
• 8:37
  Track 2: and do, have you looked at your
• 8:39
  Track 1: My age My
• 8:40
  Track 2: What's your age
• 8:41
  Track 1: 49.
• 8:44
  Track 1: What's yours?
• 8:46
  Track 2: Mine was 48.
• 8:48
  Track 2: I thought yours, I thought yours would be younger.
• 8:50
  Track 2: Um, I, I specifically keep my children off my Spotify one so they don't interfere with it because if, if, you know, apple Music did one, my my age would be like 12 or something.
• 9:00
  Track 2: Um, yes, I was 48'cause I listened to lots of music from the early nineties apparently.
• 9:05
  Track 1: I think that's probably what I'm listening to as well I listen to a lot of classical music as well.
• 9:10
  Track 1: 'cause I'm just pretentious like that.
• 9:11
  Track 1: And, uh, yeah, that, I think that's influenced it a bit.
• 9:14
  Track 1: The, the old I was talking with, um, uh, this is a total name to.
• 9:18
  Track 1: Up name Brag.
• 9:19
  Track 1: Tony Jordan Thursday night at this writer's thing and she said she's mortally offended'cause she got 72.
• 9:28
  Track 2: Well, my, my line leader got 91.
• 9:33
  Track 1: What's a 1-year-old?
• 9:35
  Track 2: I don't even know.
• 9:36
  Track 2: He was, he was going back to the classics, that's for sure.
• 9:38
  Track 2: But, uh, anyway, moving on from that.
• 9:42
  Track 2: Um, we know we've got very good taste in music, so that's good.
• 9:45
  Track 2: But okay, well, we won't, we won't keep talking.
• 9:49
  Track 2: We'll just wish all our listeners a very happy, safe, wonderful festive season.
• 9:55
  Track 1: Yes
• 9:56
  Track 2: for this year.
• 9:57
  Track 2: Thank you Madeline, for another amazing year.
• 9:58
  Track 2: And, and Natasha for another amazing year.
• 10:01
  Track 2: And, um, we hope you enjoy our live episode with Haley scr.
• 10:05
  Track 1: Thank you everybody.
• 10:07
  Track 1: See you next year.
• 10:12
  Speaker: So welcome to this special live
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: Christmas episode of the Book Deal podcast.
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: Um, I'm Natasha Rai and I'm one of the co-host of the book Deal.
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: I acknowledge that we're meeting tonight on country, which is part of the, the OR nation.
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: So I pay my respect to the Aboriginal talent storytellers
• 10:30
  Speaker: on this land, their elders past and present always was, always will be Aboriginal.
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: And so for those who Dunno us, we're going to just do a quick intro.
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: So, um, I will start with Madeleine, my co-host.
• 10:45
  Speaker 3: Hello everyone.
• 10:45
  Speaker 3: For those who don't know me, my name's Madeleine Cleary.
• 10:48
  Speaker 3: Um, I'm a former diplomat, uh, a public servant, a writer, and a podcaster.
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: My day novel, the Butterfly Women, was published, uh, in May this year.
• 10:57
  Speaker 3: And we thought we'd do something a little bit funny.
• 10:59
  Speaker 3: And Hayley, we haven't given the heads up about this.
• 11:01
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: Rather than tell or tell you about our books, we're going to do a something, meet something as a way to describe the book.
• 11:10
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 11:10
  Speaker 3: So for the Butterfly Women, so it is Jack the Ripper meets Jane Austin, alright, Tina,
• 11:18
  Speaker 5: me.
• 11:18
  Speaker 5: Hi I, my name is Tina Strachan and I live on Gold Coast in Queensland.
• 11:23
  Speaker 5: I am a wildlife conservation technical officer and uh, an author and a podcaster.
• 11:29
  Speaker 5: And, uh, I write children's books and my debut series came out this year at the beginning of the year.
• 11:36
  Speaker 5: It's called Wilder Zoo, and it is a, um, cross, it's like Indie Irwin meets en Blyton.
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: Ooh.
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: I didn't know we could do people the concept of people.
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: Um, well, hi everyone.
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: My name's Hailey Scrivenor.
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: I'm the author of Dirt Town and Girl Falling, which I believe I'm gonna say is Gillian Flynn's.
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: Gone Girl Meets Rebecca Stafford's Bad Behavior.
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: So it's about dangerous female friendship, high places in the Blue Mountains, um, and the things that we need to learn to live with.
• 12:08
  Speaker: Ooh, nice.
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: Um, and so I'm Natasha Wright.
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: And my debut novel is called an Onslaught of Light, published by Panera Press.
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: And mine is the safe key meets Ented Mystery.
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: It is a very powerful formula that's something meets something you really hear it in.
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: It's a really good way to learn to communicate about your book so, um, let me properly introduce her.
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: This good enough.
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: So it is my great pleasure to have her here and ours to have her here tonight as our special No, just yours, Maddie.
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: Just mine.
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: Just mine on the fence.
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: As our agony art on the book deal podcast.
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: So Hay Scrivenor is a former festival director and internationally bestselling author.
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: Her first novel Dirt Town won a number of national and international awards, including an Avia.
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: AB Abia ar.
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: I don't know why they maybe'cause it.
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: That's just I always hear AIA Australian book Industry award.
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: Yes, the general fiction book of the year.
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: A Lambda literary Award for LGBTQIA plus Mystery and the CW Blood Dagger, which is not the Country Women Association.
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: It is Crime Writing Association of the uk.
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: Clear that up.
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: Um, her second novel Girl Falling won the People's Choice Danger Award in 2025.
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: Hayley has years of experience teaching, writing, and particularly enjoys one-on-one mentoring with emerging writers.
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: Hayley holds a PhD in creative writing from the University of Wollongong and lives on world Country.
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: So we couldn't think of a better person to address all our writing woes.
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: Um, so please.
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: When Natasha asked me, anyone who knows me knows that I love giving advice.
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: I seldom take my own advice.
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: I'm, I will not be held legally responsible for any of the advice that I'm about to give you.
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: What a different, but there is something about, um, and you've talked about this on the podcast with Kate Mildenhall, um, Madeleine, this, this idea that in giving advice, sometimes we say the things we need to hear.
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: And also I think it's a, it's a gift that is always in motion in the writing community.
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: So we've all been at the bottom.
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: We've all been having a bad writing day, and we've all felt like we've learned nothing and know nothing.
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: And I certainly spent a lot of time in that place.
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: But sometimes reaching across and, and helping someone else with their problem can be the swiftest way to remind yourself like, I care about this stuff and I've been thinking about it a lot, and, and maybe I am part of this circle.
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: And you start to rise again.
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: You know?
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: And then unfortunately you fall again.
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: And that's the, yeah, that's the wheel of.
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: Literary life.
• 14:37
  Speaker: But
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: I'm so excited to be asked and like slightly baffled that you're here to hear my opinion on anything, but very, very happy to, um, to be involved.
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: So thank you.
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: Well, thank you.
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: So, for those who didn't already know, we've been collecting some anonymous questions, from the writing community for Hayley, and we've spiced them up a little bit just to, you know, make it a bit more entertaining for all of us.
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: Um, so we're gonna start with the super easy one, their agony aunt.
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: Why do I feel both happy for other rider, but also incredibly jealous when they get the wins?
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: I would love them to have names.
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: You know how in the agony arch site it's always like, oh yes, sleepless in Seattle lonely and Li Lismore or something.
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: Um, so dear, like, jealous in Jam Rouge.
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: There you guys.
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: Um.
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: Look, I think first of all, it's worth saying we care about this stuff.
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: We, we devote so much time and energy to, to telling our stories and to convincing ourselves that our stories are worth hearing.
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: And, and I, I think the first step is always just to kind of cut yourself a bit of slack and say, okay, the reason that I'm experiencing some kind of hard emotion around this is because I care.
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: Um, the next thing to do, and this is my really weird tip.
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: That shows you how strange I am.
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: If you are coming into contact with someone regularly who makes you feel shit about yourself, invest yourself in their success.
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: Be the first, if you like their writing, be the first person to recommend their book to someone.
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: Be the first person to sort of say, oh, they would be good for this event.
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: And suddenly you, instead of feeling like this person is taking something from you, you are giving something to them.
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: And the power shift that happens can be really, and it, it places you as someone who is not, it's not comfortable to be the weird, jealous person in the corner of the room.
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: And I know that'cause I have definitely been that person.
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: I had this whole weird thing with Jennifer down for a long time where she was like, my nemesis.
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: And I was like, she's so young.
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: She's one the Miles Franklin.
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: And then I met her and unfortunately she's really lovely.
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: And then I read her book.
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: Um, I read the, you know, the one that won the Miles Franklin and I, I cr you know, I loved it so much.
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: And then I became an advocate for that book and I bought it for people.
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: And, and there was something much healthier about that for me, that kind of obsessing about, about.
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: Kind of wanting what she had.
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: But it's a weird tip.
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: But I promise you it kind of works.
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: if I've been nice to you in your book, it doesn't necessarily, yeah.
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: So yeah, like sometimes I'm just nice to people in their books.
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: But I think as well, like, I think what you're also saying is it's okay to feel it.
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: Um, and as, and even, and whether you lean into someone else's success or not, um, it doesn't actually impact your work or how your book does because they might do well, but you might do well in another way or whatever.
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: Like, and I think sometimes another weird thing I do is if I'm really, uh, so it's interesting'cause the envy and jealousy are two words.
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: We're using them kind of in interchangeably.
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: Envy is involving two people.
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: So I want what Natasha has, I want, I want her amazing podcast.
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: I want her ability to write so beautifully.
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: These are the things I want.
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: Jealousy is about is, is, is there's three elements in jealousy.
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: There's me, there's you, and there's the thing I want.
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: And you have the thing I want, and I'm jealously guarding it like a dragon.
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: So there's a sense of loss that if I, and sometimes it is a zero sum game, if I don't win an award and you win it, that can be jealousy.
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: Whereas that more general feeling of, oh, I, I just can't, I want your publicity team, I want your sales.
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: You know that, that's envy.
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: And I think in either case, being sort of saying to yourself, what am I willing to give up to get what this other person has?
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: And for me, I said, again, this is a slight, I'm giving you all my weird, like, they're very not CBT endorsed they, but they kind of like, they're weird little tricks that help me in my mind.
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: And sometimes what I'll do is imagine taking all of the things I love about my life.
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: So my partner, not my cat, my mom, my childhood cat, the way that I, if I'm really laughing at something, I snort a little.
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: Like all those things that make me, me.
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: And I imagine putting them on an altar and saying, okay, I'm gonna trade all that for this thing that this other person has, like their career or their, and there has never been a time where someone's career or sales or whatever has been more important than all the things that make me the person that I am.
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: And.
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: That is a weird trick.
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: That works.
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: I like that as well.
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: I like it.
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: Great.
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: I think it's always helpful to have a really, like when you're stuck and these are really strategies for when you haven't just kind of had a whinge to a friend and moved on.
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: 'cause that's fine.
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: Like you don't, not everything needs to go through this elaborate process, but when I'm really stuck for some reason, it's often telling me something that I maybe should do.
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: And that's often the kind of maybe neater advice is like, just take note of, of the thing that you're envious of, because maybe that'll tell you if you're envious of someone's podcast, like start your own podcast or start going to Toastmasters if the idea of speaking publicly, you know, let it push you down the line.
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: But if, if those kind of healthy things aren't working, then feel free to use my weird visualization kind of techniques.
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 19:23
  Speaker 5: Amazing.
• 19:24
  Speaker 5: Wow.
• 19:24
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 19:25
  Speaker 5: That's, that's amazing.
• 19:26
  Speaker 5: Um, also, just one quick thing is I've heard people talk about, uh, the people that they feel these feelings about as like, expanders, like see them as an expander.
• 19:34
  Speaker 5: Mm.
• 19:34
  Speaker 5: Like surround yourself with them and be part of that and see what they're doing.
• 19:37
  Speaker 5: That might be the little tip that you need to also get you on your path.
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: And, and also like the, I love that a because I do think that it's that thing where when you run or swim or exercise with other people, you, you move faster.
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: Um, but also this, this sense of imagine yourself four years ago and where you were and where you are now.
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: And even if you haven't, if you're still trying to get published, a lot of things will have happened between you four years ago and now.
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: And that's a much healthier benchmark than, than somebody else.
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: Um, so I think it's all, I, I agree though.
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: It is, it is nice sometimes to be like, maybe this can fuel me.
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: And you hear about those kinds of, you know, like those societies of like, um, Louis Carroll and Token being friends, you know, it's like, okay, maybe that.
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: Um, but I think you wanna actually be friends and not hate them and be pretending to like them.
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: Asbi frenemy usually in, in, in supporting someone you do come to actually genuinely like them.
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 20:29
  Speaker: Yeah.
• 20:29
  Speaker: Yeah.
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: That's awesome advice.
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: Okay, our next question is, dear agony art, the thought of talking in front of an audience about my book makes me want to vomit.
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: Are there pills for this?
• 20:41
  Speaker: Well, that's
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: from
• 20:42
  Speaker: anxious in.
• 20:44
  Speaker: Nice.
• 20:44
  Speaker: Thank you for getting on,
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: on board of that.
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: And I know it doesn't seem like it now, speaking to you and, and, and in terms of being someone who's spoken about two books now and done the full book tour twice and taught at university for many years, but I, I remember the first time I was meant to interview, um, someone outside, I'd run a writer's festival.
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: So I had done some interviewing and it felt a bit safer and a bit smaller.
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: But I was interviewing Rick Morton, who is a writer I really admire.
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: It was a beautiful book.
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: I really wanted to get it right and I was so sick.
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: And in the week lead up, you know, the two weeks leading up, I just kept emailing him these questions because I'm so worried about getting it wrong.
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: And Rick just has this policy of he doesn't really answer his email.
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: That's how he gets everything done that he needs to get done.
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: So I remember sort of rocking up and feeling like maybe he's unhappy with the tenor of my questions or whatever.
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: And in the end, anytime someone is coming to an event like this.
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: They just wanna hear someone talk about something that they already have decided Sounds interesting, and you are just trying in to, in real time, have a conversation that is even just 5% more interesting than something you would overhear in a cafe.
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: And that's a low bar.
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: But truly, like as someone who I really love doing events now, it's actually kind of very sadly become my entire social life.
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: Of course, there is something about getting up in front of people and talking about the thing that I love so much, but I remember that feeling of, of fear and feeling like you're gonna throw up.
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: But if you are just coming to have a conversation about something you care about, and I would add, you are the expert in your book.
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: You literally wrote the book.
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: So there is nothing I could say to you, Tina, that would shock you or surprise you about any of your books.
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: And if, if, if it did, you could say, you know what?
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: I've never thought about it.
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: And then you can just talk about something else because, uh, which is a pivot I do all the time.
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: It's like I've never thought about it.
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: But what I have thought about it lot is.
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: The thing that I want to talk about, and you do have that space as a writer, we don't have to, I think maybe this would be particularly scary if you were a memoirist writing about your own life, but you deserve to, to decide what you're comfortable talking about and not talking about.
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: I think Kate Milden Hall had some great advice, um, Madeleine, in your episode that you did with her about, if I should just
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: listen to that episode.
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: It's such
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: a good episode.
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: And look, Kate is the gold standard of interviewing in Australia and being interviewed.
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: Like she's a charming interview subject.
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: And it's listen to people, listen to the person who is interviewing you, or if you're interviewing someone else, listen to their podcasts that they've done earlier.
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: Really try and figure out are they someone who needs a bit of space around?
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: Like, do they just need to think for a second?
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: Or if they've stopped talking, is it time to just kind of move to the next question?
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: Um, familiarize yourself, get a friend to ask you certain, like these were all, um, certain questions about like some interesting stories behind the writing of the book.
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: Things that you can fall back on.
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: Madeleine, we were talking before we started recording about when you're on book two, you start to acquire these things, these little anecdotes that you know are interesting and that will get, you know, and really there, the, the fear of of doing it will never be as bad as the reality of doing it because everyone who is there is there to hear about.
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: They've already decided they would like to hear you talk about this thing.
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: Um, so if nothing else, try and chew people out and imagine that you're talking in a cafe about, about your book.
• 23:48
  Speaker 5: I like what you said about it's never gonna be as bad as what you think.
• 23:50
  Speaker 5: It's, and I used to do this thing where I would just go, okay, well what is the absolute worst thing that could happen?
• 23:56
  Speaker 5: And it's like, oh, okay, well I forgot.
• 23:58
  Speaker 5: I forget what I'm talking about.
• 23:59
  Speaker 5: And honestly, the amount of people that you hear say, I'm sorry, I've forgotten what I said, and I've just gone on a tangent and using that as your tool to come back to it.
• 24:06
  Speaker 5: 'cause no one cares if you, if you say that, but I used to think that was the worst thing in the world.
• 24:10
  Speaker 5: So.
• 24:11
  Speaker 5: Think in my head, what's the absolute worst things that can happen And then just go, as you work through them, you go, actually none of that even really matters.
• 24:18
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 24:18
  Speaker 5: And none of it does.
• 24:19
  Speaker 5: So, um, yeah.
• 24:20
  Speaker 5: It's never as bad as what you think.
• 24:21
  Speaker 5: Good advice.
• 24:22
  Speaker 5: And there probably are pills for it actually, but we're not gonna recommend, I
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: think beta blockers exist.
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: And I know that useful for some people.
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: I actually
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: have heard of authors taking beta blockers before, some really anxious authors, and it's so sad that, you know, they feel that way.
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: But I can understand it.
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: It's, you know, something quite intense, particularly for writers who may be used to sort of hiding away in their office and then find, find themselves like speaking back in their book.
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: But it's also a privilege to be able to speak about book in front of
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: Well, that's what makes it hard.
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: You don't wanna stuff it up.
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: And I know, I really understand where that comes from.
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: Natasha, you said something great about.
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: Acknowledging that you're nervous can sometimes be the f It literally gets you talking and saying, look, I, this is not my second time doing this.
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: Like, I really don't know what I'm doing.
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: Go gentle on me.
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: Cue laughter.
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: And then you're in, you know, and then everyone becomes really sympathetic.
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: And lucky you to do well and yeah.
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: But I do think giving into this sense of, um, if you assume it's not interesting, then you're kind of doing a disservice to the people that have already decided in advance that it is interesting.
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: So I think speaking not in a kind of over, you know, when you listen, um, like, like you, you want someone to hold the space that they're in if they can.
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: And even if it's saying, look, I'm nervous, but I'm excited to talk about my book because I've been writing this book for this amount of time.
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: And that's already like a genuine thing happening in real space.
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: And that's all people expect from you.
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: They just want you to say something about, about this thing that you care about so much.
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: Great, great responses.
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: Um, okay, next question.
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: Dear Agony Art, I'm not sure I can deal with any more rejections, and this is a very common thing in the writing industry.
• 25:56
  Speaker 3: Everyone says we write for the love of writing, but I really wanna be published.
• 26:01
  Speaker 3: How do I persevere and should I from Let's Go.
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: Rejected in Rome.
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: Oh, nice.
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: We've gone international.
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: Well, Giorgio, let me, uh, look, I think rejection is, it's kind of, it's, it's part of the game.
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: We all know that.
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: We've all heard that a thousand times, but the actual experience of being rejected is one of shame and it's a really bodily feeling.
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: I think when I've been rejected, which I have many times with my writing, um, and other things that I've tried to do in life, there's this feeling of like, why did I even think that I could do this?
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: Or why did I even bother to try?
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: And I think.
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: There is no, you have to let yourself feel that feeling.
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: There's kind of no getting around that.
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: I think you're allowed to be sad when you get rejected.
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: I think never reply, never kind of while you're still in the in the'cause.
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: Sometimes anger is a reso is a response to rejection as well.
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: Definitely don't respond with anger, but I genuinely believe that it's the people that make it as writers, I, I noticed two, two things.
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: It's the ability to take on feedback and a kind of sheer bloody mindedness.
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: And I genuinely think if you have both those things, talent is so ephemeral, what we think of as talent or, but.
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: If you care about the thing that you're working on and you are trying, you are genuinely taking on feedback when you can get feedback that you can trust, and that's a whole other, I mean, that's a whole podcast episode in itself.
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: That is a muscle you need to grow as a writer.
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: When to listen to a publisher.
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: Sometime I was talking to someone in the lobby before and saying they had gotten a rejection.
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: A friend of a friend had gotten a rejection that then, um, said, oh, but maybe if you made it into a completely different genre, it would work.
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: I would hear that and hear, this person doesn't like my book and they just are kind of saying something to kind of move me along.
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: But that person went and redid it and went back to that person.
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: They said, oh, now it's lost.
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: What made it special?
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: Which is just so crushing to have done all that work.
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: So I think it's learning to who you should listen to, which is hard to know.
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: Um, I'm a big believer in things like manuscript assessments, like when I'm, I pay myself personally before it goes to my publisher, and I'm always afraid one of them is gonna slide up and be like, you're not allowed to do that.
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: Like, it's against the rules, but it's not because I want to kind of.
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: Have a professional editor look at my book and, and, and tell me what I've done and, and, and sort of let, and that's how my books get better.
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: I've worked on them alone for a long time, and then I show them to someone who I've paid to really spend time and I get other readers in between.
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: But I think if you're at a point where you're getting lots of projection, consider something like a manuscript assessment with someone.
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: I mean, writing New South Wales has connections for the, you know, plug while we are here in this beautiful building.
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: Um, but sometimes it, and we, you know, it's, it's a catchphrase for a reason, but it only takes one.
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: So if you're stuck in this rejection hill, yes, try, try the feedback thing, and then sometimes you just need to keep going until you get that one.
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 28:49
  Speaker 3: And I think too, leaning onto your community is really important in that.
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: Period.
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: Because I think everybody writes, particularly writers, they understand that rejection sort of phase, don't they?
• 28:59
  Speaker 3: Because it's, um, such a tough thing to go through.
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: But when you're doing it and going through it with other people, they understand.
• 29:04
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's, it's hard to sort of communicate it with your family.
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: 'cause sometimes they'll go, well, why do you put so much pressure on yourself?
• 29:10
  Speaker 3: And why do you do this to yourself?
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: My
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: friend, um, uh, the crime writer, Mitch Jennings has this great thing.
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: He is like, oh, I really feel for the partners of writers and the friends of writers.
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: Because imagine if your hobby was model trains, right?
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: And you loved model trains and you spent hours every day away from your kids and your job doing model trains.
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: And then on the weekend you went to model train conventions, and then when you got home, you complained to your beloved other how much you hate modern like model trains and how no one's letting you do model trains in the way that you would like to do them.
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: You know, like your partner should leave you in those situation.
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: Um, but, and I was, we were sitting at a, at a, at a pub and I was there with, with Mitch and my partner Dan, and he said, um.
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: But the difference is that stories matter.
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: Like we as, as the partner of a writer, I know, I can see how much this story mattered to you and it mattered to me.
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: Like I care about stories.
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: Story is the thing that we reach for.
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: Um, Mitchell and I were both a bit like, I I did know because I think sometimes it does feel like we're, we are swimming upstream and that nobody wants our stories.
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: But I think it's our job to persevere until those stories do reach that person that, that that is, that they reach across and, and grab and pull in.
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: Because we've all had that experience of reading something that felt, we felt like it was written for us.
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: And I do believe that that is waiting if you persevere and you take feedback.
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: Great answer.
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: Okay, dear Agony, art, I have an idea for a novel that I want to write and it makes me so excited, but I don't think it'll be very marketable and I don't think publishers will take it on.
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: Should I bother from curious in Canberra?
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: Look, this is such an easy answer for me.
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: If you are writing the book that you think people want to read, you are stuffed in ahead of time.
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: Like there is, there is so much that goes into writing a book and it takes so much from you.
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: And ultimately at the end, you want it to give so much to the reader that if you are working on it in a cynical way where you just kind of wanna skip this step of emotionally investing in it and tell telling the story, that only you can tell, which sounds high-minded and lovely, but I sometimes the story only you can tell is a story that you really don't like, that you would prefer not to have to tell.
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: But if it's the idea that obsesses you, um, and it's the thing, and if you're excited about it, even better, but I, I'm a big believer, is in, in the fact that if you don't write the thing that's been given to you, it will be taken from you and possibly nothing else will be given to you.
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: I think we have to write the thing that presents itself to us and the thing that that keeps us up at night and the thing we feel we have to write because I do believe there is it.
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: No, there's no guarantee of marketability.
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: But the best book that you can possibly write about the thing that is most exciting to you, that most kind of, um, makes you, you feel something has the most chance of making someone feel something at the other end and therefore being marketable.
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: And also given how slowly publishing moves by the time you might get your book published with the trend or something you think is interesting, maybe things have moved on or there's a different twist on it, or Absolutely.
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: You know, you can't, you can't beat or, or time the market.
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: I think it's, and you look at me, my first book was, I was so innocent and so kind of under read in the, in the genre of crime that I really was like, it's a small town, but get this, it's got a big secret.
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: Like, I thought I had invented that.
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: I what an idiot.
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: What a stupid, stupid person.
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: But you know what I did?
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: I really cared about those people and I cared about the story.
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: And I, and you know, I, I.
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: I got feedback and I learned how to kind of, I learned about the genre expectations that I had kind of blended into, um, once I had a cop and a missing kid.
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: You know, there were things that the reader expected to happen and I found a way to tell that story that felt really true to these people that I really cared about.
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: And I think so many craft problems, so many problems of ego for the writer can be cured by going, it's not about me, it's about my imaginary friends.
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: It's about these people that I have brought into life or that I think I could bring into life and what they need to, to be in the book they deserve to be in.
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: So, so then, just to extend that out a little bit, if you are somebody who has been published like a debut novel, um, and you are writing a second book and there's a tension between what you're writing and what your publisher thinks you should write.
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: What, what, what should I do?
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: It says Curious in Canberra.
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: Well, again, I would refer to Kate Milden Hall, who is a classic example of someone who has written in every genre it feels like.
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: Um, and every, you know, she talks really candidly and I really appreciated that interview about writing a certain kind of book writing historical fiction, and then them wanting very explicitly for her next book to be historical fiction.
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: And her saying, well, that's not story that I'm excited to tell.
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: And she got the reject.
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: She got the, okay, we may have said we were gonna buy it, but actually we're not gonna buy it now.
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: Which is a moment that just makes your stomach sink like every writer can imagine how that would feel, because that's the worst nightmare, you know, the contract signed and yet I'm not good enough.
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: I haven't done what they wanted.
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: Um, but it's sort of a case of.
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: My grandma always said, if you're trying to choose between two men, two men, the option is a third man.
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: You know, like, which I think is really great advice.
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: It's like, oh, should I do this or do that?
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: And the third option is no.
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: Go and find someone who, who loves this book and these characters for, for who they wanna be.
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: And I think Kate is a great example of someone who's got a really exciting and interesting career.
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: And I think it'll often feels like we have a choice.
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: And I really believe actually that you only have two books.
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: You have the book you can write or no book at all.
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: There isn't this, for me, really trying to be cynical and make strategic decisions has never worked in my own writing.
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: And if you can do that, great.
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: I, I think people come to their practice in different ways and they might, it might be more of a, like a challenge.
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: Like, let's see if I can write a, you know, another historical novel and do it in a different way.
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: But if that doesn't excite you and, and your publisher doesn't want the book, then go find another publisher and write the book as well as you can get feedback, you know, sort of those and be, be bloody minded in, in.
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: I feel like we are guardians for the books that are given to us.
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: And I'm not a very woo woo person in any other way in my life, but I really do feel like the, the thing that helps me get through is this feeling like, no, no, this is my assigned book.
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: So like, why struggle against it?
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: Because this is the book that has been, that has chosen me to write it.
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: Um, and that gives me a lot of solace because it's like, well, this is just the problem with the book I've been assigned to write.
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: It's not actually,
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: I think Elizabeth Gilbert talks about that in Big Magic, doesn't she?
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: That, yeah.
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: I
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: think a lot of people resonate with that, that idea and that, that if you clo the tubes, that it, you know, that there's nothing behind it.
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: You know, you have to kind of deal with what, what is assigned to you.
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 35:48
  Speaker: Thanks.
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: Love
• 35:48
  Speaker 5: that A beautiful concept.
• 35:50
  Speaker 5: Also, your grandma sounds like a careful the third man.
• 35:54
  Speaker 5: Um, okay, next question.
• 35:57
  Speaker 5: Dear Agni Arms, if my dating novel did not sell well, should I blame the marketing budget, my publisher, the booksellers, or myself.
• 36:06
  Speaker 5: Low sales in this book.
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: Um, that is, it's a really, it's a hard question'cause it comes back to the, the book that was assigned to, you know, talked about this high and mighty idea of, oh, it's assigned to you, but what happens when the sales have not been assigned in a way that is pleasing to everyone involved?
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: And look, I really believe, and I have witnessed in my own life,
• 36:29
  Speaker: the,
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: the way that a book comes to be, one of those books that you hear about and that you see everywhere.
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: And then it's just kind of at the front of the bookstore, that is a decision made in by a group of people in a room.
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: Months before your book comes out, maybe years before your book comes out, and you are not in that room and you are not influencing that decision.
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: So there are certain hard and fast, you know, if, if lots of free copies of your book early copies aren't printed and sent out to booksellers and they won't know it exists, it's such a crowded market.
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: If it's not, um, if it's not made Book of the Month anywhere or if it's not on the end of the shelf, it came out, which by the way, your publisher actively pays for, like there are things that really feel like they are your fault.
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: Because when you look at other books, you see, oh my God, I can't turn around without seeing Bloody Dirt Down, which was my book and I really am sorry to all the right.
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: I know it Got it.
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: Got an incredible publicity kind of run and marketing like they spent actual money to make that happen is I guess what I'm getting at.
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: So yes, your publisher has a, a huge role to play and huge responsibility to play, but they also.
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: Tend to do this thing where they're like, well, it didn't sell well, so I guess like, maybe we won't publish your next book.
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: So there's, there's this feeling that, and the author is quite ready to take that shame on.
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: 'cause we're all always ready to kind of blame ourselves.
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: Um, and I think there are exceptions and those exceptions can make us feel extra like it's our fault.
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: Um, but if you're booked, doesn't win an award or doesn't get, you know, reviewed by someone doesn't get plucked out of a pile by Stephen King, who then, you know, tells everyone how great it is, it is incredibly hard in a saturated market.
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: And this is where it, it comes down to defining your own success.
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: And I think you will be very unhappy in this industry if you are, even if you have a dream run as I did, I have had to learn that I can't.
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: Predicate my happiness on what other people in a room that I'm not in decide about my book.
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: So for me, the, the mark of success for a book is that I get it professionally edited and that I make the book be better and I can, if I save up, you know, I can put aside the money to pay my own editor.
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: So it's not even to dependent on, on, on a, a publisher.
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: And I think taking and, and resting that control where you can and saying, what does success look like for me?
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: Is it, is it that one person tells me that this book moved them?
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: Is it that I'm able to find a way to continue to write, even though no one wants to publish that book at the moment, but I'm, I'm finding time and continuing to write it.
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think it's, if you let other people tell you what success is in, in book writing, you will go insane because you think you have everything and then you turn around even when it's going so well and you will be like, oh, well I don't have a Netflix special, or I don't, you know, you have to sort of let the work be, be the thing.
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: And again, it comes back to.
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: The less you, the more you can take yourself outta the equation.
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: Equation.
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: And the more you can think about the people whose story you're trying to tell, and I, I know they're my imaginary friends, like I know it's slightly weird, but that really helps me to go, no, no, these people deserve to have their, their book finished.
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: And again, those stories matter.
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: And so if your publisher doesn't wanna buy your book'cause it didn't sell well, it's probably their fault in terms of if, if all those thing, like we can almost predict that a book will do well based on how much it sold for, how many arcs are, are ordered, all those things.
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: There are things that happen that will tell you that a book is gonna be successful.
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: But if you are deciding what success looks like for yourself, then you can always kind of work at that and you can actually do something about that.
• 40:00
  Speaker 5: Yeah, because there's also trends as well.
• 40:02
  Speaker 5: We talk about writing to trends, but then the publishers are probably also promoting particular books that are, that are selling well at that at the moment, you know, so you could also have an incredible book in this genre, but if it's just the genres not selling that well at the moment, then that's, they're backing the one that is.
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think it's worth saying people in publishing love books and have their own tastes and their books that they would love to put more behind, but they're also usually underpaid, um, under-resourced, you know, trying to make enough money to keep the lights on is, is the state of a lot of, um, Aussie publishers in the face of, of all the challenges that kind of beset books.
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: But I still believe at the end of the day, the stories we care about have the best potential to re reach readers and become stories that they care about.
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: And all the stuff that happens in the middle can suck, but it comes back to our sheer bloody mindedness in wanting to tell those stories.
• 40:53
  Speaker 3: No, that's a great one.
• 40:54
  Speaker 3: Um, I remember Graham Simpson saying, um, obviously very successful author Rosie Project saying, um, um, write a, write a, just write a bloody better book.
• 41:04
  Speaker 3: And, you know, I guess it's easier said than done, isn't it?
• 41:06
  Speaker 3: Um, because, you know, while the publishing industry as a whole might.
• 41:11
  Speaker 3: Select certain book doesn't necessarily mean that that will resonate with, you know, wider audiences.
• 41:16
  Speaker 3: Like there is, I suppose, a bit of a gamble as well in what they're trying to do.
• 41:20
  Speaker 3: So they're just trying to put their eggs in the right basket.
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: It's hard, isn't
• 41:22
  Speaker 3: it?
• 41:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: The psychologist, Alison Matting, has a great, um, she has a podcast and then within that podcast is a mini series she did with Charlotte Wood, where she actively was giving Charlotte Wood therapy about, or kind of counseling about the natural way of things while Charlotte was working on it.
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: And Charlotte talks about how she thought nobody would want that book.
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: Um, she was very afraid that it was too dark, that it was not the right book for the moment.
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: Um, and of course, we all know what happened with the natural way of things, which makes it quite enjoyable to listen and, and kind of wallow in that delicious sorrow because we kind of go, if Charlotte Wood can feel that way, like maybe I'm, maybe I'll be okay.
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: But I think that that Allison, um, talk really talks about looking at a, a certain book in the, in the sort of sit.
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: In terms of your whole career as well and not, and not not needing to do everything with this, this one book and being like, I, as long as I continue to show up and, and write my career is not, it's not over.
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: Which feels like it always is.
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: Like every second day you're like, it's over.
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: I've done, I I'm cooked.
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: I can't write anymore.
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: I'm put a book in me, I'm done.
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 42:23
  Speaker 3: And I like what you said earlier about looking back yourself four years ago and what would that person think of you and feel?
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: Because I'd
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: be like, I've only got two books.
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: That's awesome.
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah,
• 42:31
  Speaker 3: exactly.
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: So, so can I just ask an extension of that question?
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: If your debut doesn't sell well, is it bad form to ask your publisher to look at your second book?
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: That's really interesting wording.
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: Bad form.
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: I would never believe that it is bad form to fight for your story.
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: And again, there is a sort of culpability on their part, but that they will, you probably not concede to because it's easy to just say, look, we didn't have the numbers.
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: I have a friend who's been in this position of their first book, didn't do good numbers.
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: And then they tried to sell, sell a second book, and they're really having a very hard time because the first thing people do is look up a book on Nielsen book scan and she's learned a lot.
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: She would do things a lot differently.
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: She would advocate for herself more and also get out there and kind of connect with readers more.
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: She didn't know that, that she could do that.
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: Um, but I think you should always fight for your story.
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: And I think, again, we are so integral in the publishing process.
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: Like we are not a side of, like, we are not often a, a side room, like the, the publishing industry doesn't exist without us.
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: We can't get our stories out to lots of people without them.
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: So it should be a respectful relationship.
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: Um, and you, you always wanna be professional, but I think fighting for your story is, is never rude as long as you are polite.
• 43:45
  Speaker 3: Um, okay, dear Agony, aunt, how do I politely tell people that No, I can't introduce them to my agent or editor.
• 43:53
  Speaker 3: And so this is from Gatekeeper, from Gundagai.
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: Alright, I'm gonna turn this question immediately back on the three of you because I'm getting sick of the sound of my own voice now.
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: So what would you do, Tina?
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: Oh, I guess I would feel really weird about it.
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: I would feel quite strange about it.
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: Um, I'd maybe say that I would and just never do.
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: No, no.
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: I think about it.
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: Feel
• 44:21
  Speaker: really, I feel very strange about
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: that.
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: I think.
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: Or
• 44:24
  Speaker: maybe give them
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: con like you can contact
• 44:26
  Speaker: them by
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: the, it's also worth acknow, like it's a difficult position to be put in.
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: Would you agree?
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: Like Yeah.
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: I mean, you're lucky enough to get time with the editor and agent as it is yourself.
• 44:37
  Speaker 5: Um, yeah.
• 44:38
  Speaker 5: I'd probably just maybe direct them to how they could
• 44:40
  Speaker: do it themselves.
• 44:41
  Speaker 3: I haven't been asked outright.
• 44:43
  Speaker 3: Um, but I have actually forward people to my agent and editor people who I would vouch for and recommend.
• 44:51
  Speaker 3: Um, and I would do that in a way where I'd not.
• 44:54
  Speaker 3: Assuming that they would want that, I'd actually email my publisher and say, there's this person who I know who you might be interested in.
• 45:01
  Speaker 3: This is kind of the style that they're writing in.
• 45:03
  Speaker 3: Would you be interested in seeing their work?
• 45:05
  Speaker 3: And so give the publisher the opportunity rather than just send it out blind email.
• 45:10
  Speaker 3: Mm.
• 45:10
  Speaker 3: Is that only
• 45:11
  Speaker: if you think that their work is good enough?
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: Correct.
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: About your free will in doing it?
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: Like it's a genuine recommendation.
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: It means you, you know, enough about the project, you've read it to feel confident and enough about the person to sort of feel like you're not kind of handing someone to your editor who, you know, has so, so little time and resources and all that.
• 45:30
  Speaker 3: Exactly.
• 45:30
  Speaker 3: Exactly.
• 45:31
  Speaker 3: Um, but I haven't been a asked outright.
• 45:33
  Speaker 3: If I was, I think I would be surprised about the question because I think it's, it is a bit of a rude question and perhaps someone who might not know too much about the industry because I think, you know, there are very well established sort of processes to apply and I'd probably.
• 45:48
  Speaker 3: Link them to link and say, if you are interested in getting published, listen to books.
• 45:52
  Speaker 3: Nice little.
• 45:54
  Speaker 3: That's what we like.
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: Um, actually have been asked twice now to introduce people to my publisher because I don't have an agent.
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: Um, and I think both times, one, one time I was very confident in the person's work.
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: Um, so, and I actually, this is slightly different because this person was gonna pitch to my publisher at an event.
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: So what I did was I told my publisher, this person's gonna be pitching to you at this event.
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: Please keep your, just keep an eye out for them.
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: And, um, they had a really good meeting and in the end she didn't pick it up.
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: But I did, I did do that the second time.
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: It for somebody whose work I personally didn't like.
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: Um, and also I didn't think it was a good fit for the publisher.
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: But again, that was not my, my call to make.
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: So like you, as I just asked my publisher like, would you be interested in this type of work?
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: And they said.
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: I think they said something like, go through the channels.
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: Like I won't take it personally.
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: And so I just went back and said, look, I had a chat.
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: And that's what they have advised.
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: So yeah, don't do that.
• 46:56
  Speaker: So wise.
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: Well, does anyone else It's,
• 46:58
  Speaker: it's awkward.
• 47:00
  Speaker: It's really awkward.
• 47:01
  Speaker: Yeah.
• 47:01
  Speaker: Luckily I don't have an agent, luckily, actually
• 47:03
  Speaker 3: I do have random people like on the street, when they find out like I'm a writer, they're like, oh, I wanna write a book.
• 47:09
  Speaker 3: Oh, will you stay in contact?
• 47:11
  Speaker 3: So you might be able to read some of something that I've read and I'm like, oh, well I'm I'll, I'll charge you for that.
• 47:16
  Speaker 3: So
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: I have been sort of invited to coffee by people I've never met and don't know and who have not even bothered to express any interest in my work.
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: Like it's one thing to be like, look, your book really moved me.
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: I love the bit with insert detail that makes me convince you actually read the book
• 47:32
  Speaker: instead
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: of, um, you know, getting something from a ai like there, there's just the a someone who will do that does not seem like the kind of person who would write the sort of nuanced.
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: And compelling fiction that I wanna pass on to my agent or my publisher.
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: So, um, I do think it's, and it's about, it comes down to having real writing friends.
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: I think you to get through this lifestyle, this model train universe that we have willingly entered into ourselves, you know, that we love and that we wouldn't wanna be doing anything else.
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: You do need to surround yourself with people that, that you genuinely like.
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: And I, I find that my, my good friends, I tend to like their writing anyway.
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: Um, fortunately it hasn't happened yet.
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: It's gonna be really awkward if it does happen.
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: Um, but it hasn't actually sort of come up that direct sort of, I have written quotes for books by unpublished people when I have been involved in as like, mentoring that person or, um, there's, it's been a real serious, like I've read the book and there's been a serious engagement with it over time.
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: Always really happy to do that.
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I think if you're putting someone in that position where there is no.
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: It, it sort of yeah.
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: Suggests that maybe the book is not gonna make you happy.
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: You know what I mean?
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: Like this sort of, they feel connected in my head.
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: So, over to you.
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: Do we have any questions for our agony art?
• 48:50
  Speaker: Okay.
• 48:52
  Speaker: Dear Ag a certain,
• 48:57
  Speaker 6: uh, critique recently from a literary magazine, savaged, uh, a very popular Australian fiction crime writer.
• 49:09
  Speaker: Mm-hmm.
• 49:09
  Speaker 6: Um, it was cruel.
• 49:11
  Speaker 6: It was an unnecessary, have you ever been attacked by a critic?
• 49:16
  Speaker 6: And, um, how do, how do you deal with something that's not very favorable?
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: I have felt that I was being attacked by a critic and then reread the review two and a half years later.
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: You, you were talking about this as well, Madeleine.
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: Um, and realized it was actually fairly.
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: Fine.
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: Like your emotional experience.
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: I can only imagine what it would be to actually be savage.
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: Because even the most kind of like, oh, I thought, you know, I thought A X, Y, Z can be so upsetting.
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: Um, so I think, I think if someone's writing that kind of really mean-spirited critique, there's almost a compliment in that there's something about the work that has really, um.
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: Gotten under their crawl.
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: And the one I, I was doing an online book club once, and the woman, there was a woman who really wanted me to change the ending of the book.
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: And it had already been published in multiple languages.
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: You know, it was already, I think in the B format, like Dirt Town was, that was the ending that I had gone with.
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: Like, I was feeling pretty confident about it.
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: And, but she thought like for 20 minutes we just, she talked about all the different ways that I could have ended it.
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: And I took it as a compliment that that really, that ending had kind of really stuck with her and she couldn't not think about it.
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: Um, but if it, if not, this is when writer friends come in handy, you just get together and savage that person like
• 50:30
  Speaker 5: that.
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: Um, yeah, and I think not responding, I do think there is a real danger in getting involved in any kind of dialogue with that person.
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: Um, and you remember, like, there is, there is one review.
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: I will not name the person, but whenever I, I, if I should see them out and about, that's all that's in my head.
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: I will never do that person a favor.
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: And, you know, you never know.
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: I might end up writing, running a writing center or a writer's festival again, or, you know, like, um, I think mean-spirited critique is its own reward maybe.
• 51:01
  Speaker 3: Um, Helen Garner actually talked about how she was savaged, um, like 35 years ago by this particular critic.
• 51:08
  Speaker 3: And she never forgot the words.
• 51:09
  Speaker 3: Like, you always forget the good things.
• 51:11
  Speaker 3: You never forget the bad things.
• 51:13
  Speaker 3: And she was doing a, a speech at the university where he was the professor and he introduced her and she said, do you remember 35 years ago you wrote, you did this savage review of my book.
• 51:25
  Speaker 3: And he went bright red and he was mortified.
• 51:28
  Speaker 3: And of course he didn't remember a review.
• 51:31
  Speaker 3: But as the
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: authors, we do, don't we?
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: And reviewing is often something you do.
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: You know, I started out writing reviews when I was trying to just get some, um, words to my name.
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: And I do think I would not re review now because I don't think I could be, um.
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: Sort of, I know how much it hurts.
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: A and also I, I want, this is my professional community and I, I'm glad we have critics that are outside of that.
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: I think a critic who is not a writer who can be frank and fearless, I actually am very pro that obviously you don't wanna feel your own book.
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: Um, but when, you know, I think we have to accept that that danger.
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: Otherwise it's like it's all very toothless and what are we doing So on the same as the writer, you don't have to take it on.
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: Certainly don't respond.
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: Certainly kind of have a good whinge with your friends over blah, blah wine about it.
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: But I'm glad that critics do exist because otherwise we're just writing into the point.
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 52:22
  Speaker 3: I think one, one of the questions we were actually talking about is about persevering through your first draft if you're emerging writer, but also after you've published, you still need to have that perseverance.
• 52:32
  Speaker 3: How do you get past the first chapter and keep going and getting that manuscript done?
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: How do you finish it?
• 52:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah, how do you finish it?
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: I have so many elaborate rituals.
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: I'm so bad at writing, writing, it's not funny.
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: Like I sort of, if anyone else was as bad at writing as I am, they would give up.
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: So the one thing that I have is this sort of bloody minded, this is why I keep coming back to this word.
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: And I sort of, I find a real sort of solace in that because on, on a day where the words aren't coming, I can sort of go, well, it doesn't matter.
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna continue to sit here.
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: Like at this point I have committed.
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: Um, and there is a sort of pride or a, there's something I can get my arms around about that.
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: Whereas all that more positive kind of stuff.
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: Tends to slide off me when I'm having a really bad writing day.
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: Like, you can do it, or I believe in you, or, you know, have fun.
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: Like, don't tell me to have fun.
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: When I'm, um, there is a quote I really like Bar Murakami has this book and it's about long distance running, but it's also about writing.
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: It's called, uh, what I talk about when I talk about running.
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: And he has this line that says Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: And I really like it because I think a lot of the suffering comes from feeling that you, you alone are experiencing the pain.
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: Like you are the only one who is, is kind of as bad at writing as you are or as stuck as you are or whatever it is.
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: But realizing like doing things we care about is painful and, and whatever, whatever I was doing, there would be pain.
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: If I was still doing office admin, there would be pain if I was doing the job I did before that disability support work, there would be pain.
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: Like there would be negative things about anything that I choose to do.
• 54:04
  Speaker 2: But writing is the one thing that I, I am able to tolerate.
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: Being bad at it enough to sort of stay in the ring and, and, and it comes back to investing in those characters, trying to get down to their level and think what do they need?
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: Rather than what do I need?
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: Well, it clearly works for you.
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: You
• 54:23
  Speaker: get there.
• 54:24
  Speaker: Yeah.
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: And produce some amazing
• 54:25
  Speaker 5: work.
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: Well, it's twice and this, you know, you guys wouldn't know this.
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: There's this feeling of like, what if I wake up tomorrow and it's all, and that never goes away.
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: And it's a very, we've all heard of pick people having to put books aside.
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: Um, but if it, if it wasn't scary, it wouldn't matter.
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: And I think that that's part of it.
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 54:44
  Speaker 2: So I've gotta maybe a final question, depending on how people are feeling, maybe you're loosening up a bit.
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: Um, what do you think is the number one misconception people might have about, or misconception about being a published author?
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: That it's gonna solve all your problems, that you will wake up and you'll arrive on a, the golden dawn that your, the day your book hits shelves, suddenly all the people who are mean to you in primary school will realize the error of their ways.
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: Or the people who wouldn't sleep with you in university will some come crawling back, will finally be acknowledged for the genius that you are.
• 55:17
  Speaker 2: Um, and none of it hap you know, if you and I would, I would recommend on the day you pub, like if, and it is such a big milestone and it's so amazing and it's amazing how quickly we, we, we leave it in the rear view mirror.
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: And I think celebrating your wins is a good, is good advice wherever you are.
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: So you finish a chapter, you're an emerging writer, you haven't finished your, your, your book.
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: You know, if you get up the, you get to the point where you feel ready to send it for a manuscript development or um, assessment, you get to the point where you picture to agents like, celebrate all of it because it's all, um, it's all pretty miraculous.
• 55:51
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: Final chance to ask a question for the podcast.
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: You can obviously ask more out there.
• 55:59
  Speaker 5: Do,
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: do.
• 56:00
  Speaker 5: Oh, there we go.
• 56:00
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 56:02
  Speaker 5: Um, you said that you do one-on-one mentoring.
• 56:05
  Speaker 5: I'm curious about what part of the process you mentor, um, and kind of what that relationship with another author looks like.
• 56:14
  Speaker 5: Is it during the drafting phase?
• 56:16
  Speaker 5: Is it, you know?
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: Um, thank you so much for that
• 56:19
  Speaker 5: question.
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: I began mentoring when I was teaching at university.
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: Um, so that was, you know, uh.
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: With, with students, um, but then began doing programs or it's more formalized where I was, um, you know, being paid to mentor and they were signing up for a period of time.
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: So what I feel good about is about six months.
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: What I don't like is when people set themselves up as like, this is the only way you will ever learn to write, and if you don't have me, you, you'll not become a writer.
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: Like, I like to work with people for six months.
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: That helps me shake all the things I know out of my brain that might be useful to them, and then I can give that to them and they can hopefully progress to the next stage, which, depending on where they're at with their manuscript, I would hope would be something like a manuscript, uh, assessment.
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: Because then that means they've gotta finish draft.
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: So that means I kind of like to start working with people when they've already got a decent slab of work that we can start.
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: So, um, I have worked with people where they've maybe only got 10,000 words and they're really just looking for someone to keep them energized and writing.
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: But I do also like to be able to give feedback on the work.
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: I only ever worked with people if I've read their work, and not only really loved it, but also seen where I might be of help because there have been people who've applied to work with me and I look at it and I'm like, well, you're a better writer than I am, so I don't what to do with, you know, and so there's this, um, if you've ever been knocked back for something like that, please know that it, it is about, it's kind of a matchmaking.
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: I wanna work with people that I can help.
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: And can I say it is the best part of being a writer actually, because all of that ego stuff, all of this neurosis that you've seen on show tonight, I do not have that when I'm working with other people.
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: I, when I connect with someone in their story, I just have this incredible feeling it is gonna happen because I'm gonna make you bleed.
• 57:58
  Speaker 2: Be she like, have that sheep bloody mindedness that I keep talking about.
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: Like, this, this is going to happen.
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: And it's a certainty that you never get with your own writing because your own writing always feels really scary.
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: And, um, so I think it's a process that I really enjoy and I like being a, some mentors, um, Charlotte Wood, for example, I know she doesn't really read the work.
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: It's more having conversations that spark, um, kind of, and, and talking about certain things that will inevitably come up and be in, in the work.
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: But I like to actually dig in and, and, and kind of play in the text.
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: Um, structurally line edits.
• 58:34
  Speaker 2: I, my bad thing is I can never stop myself giving line edits because structural editing is the most valuable, but I just, if I love a line or something needs a tweak, you know, it's hard not to get your hands dirty.
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: Get in there.
• 58:45
  Speaker 6: Thank you.
• 58:46
  Speaker 6: Just pertaining to that question, is 2000 words enough to really judge rightly
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: yes.
• 58:55
  Speaker 2: I think in terms of a, the voice of a project or the, and it, it, it's about selecting that 2000 words.
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: I often, uh, just asked to see the beginning because I think a book begins at the beginning.
• 59:07
  Speaker 2: And if you haven't charmed me in the first 2000 words, then I don.
• 59:10
  Speaker 2: Then it's not ready to, for me to, to work on it.
• 59:13
  Speaker 2: And it's sort of, and there can be something that you dislike, but there is something about the, the voice or the, um, the, even the, the idea is so interesting that you want to work, but I do think 2000 words is enough because that's, we often read less when we pick up a book in a library or a bookshop to decide whether we want to continue.
• 59:31
  Speaker 2: Um, the really good sign is if you gimme 2000 words and then I want to read more, and I have to email you and ask you for more.
• 59:38
  Speaker 2: Um, you know, and obviously some short stories are less than that, and they can completely blow your brain open.
• 59:44
  Speaker 2: So,
• 59:45
  Speaker 4: yeah,
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: thank you.
• 59:48
  Speaker 7: I just, I'm not a writer, but you writing a book, you've started it.
• 59:53
  Speaker 7: Then you have to find a publisher who will, once they've read, and then they've gotta read it and publish it and decide they're gonna publish it.
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 7: Do you have to pay that publisher?
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 2: I always say, if you are paying someone to publish your book, that's really seriously cons.
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 2: Like, consider if that is right for you.
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 2: Get some advice from a local writer center.
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 2: I do think, um, it's sometimes called vanity publishing.
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 2: I think self self-publishing can be really robust and can, and can really make projects that wouldn't otherwise get published.
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 2: Kind of bring them to light.
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: But I don't think Eve, Eve, all you've done is kind of write a book and then send it to one person and they reply, yep, just gimme some money and I'll publish it.
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 2: Like that is a million alarm bell going on.
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 2: So,
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 3: And it's a very topical question that you've raised actually, because there's been a lot of reports recently about vanity publishers.
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 3: So publishers that are asking you to pay money to print the books, um, posing as traditional publishers as well.
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 3: So if really do, do your research, if, if they're asking you to pay upfront Yeah.
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 3: That's red flags.
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 3: And you think it's traditionally published red flags?
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 2: Um, okay.
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 2: So we ask all our guests.
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 2: Scrivenor, what is your top tip for writing?
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: Okay, so this is very much my pitch.
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 2: Um, my, the reason I need to get this out is'cause it benefits me.
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 2: So I am someone who will hear from people often, um, through my contact website, which is like an email that's Hayley@HayleyScrivenor.com.
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 2: And then when I reply to you, I also wanna reply from my personal email because it comes through to that.
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: And so I go to people's job.
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 2: So people are like, oh, Hailey, I'd love to work with you.
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 2: I'd loved your book.
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 2: Here's a sample.
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: And I go, oh, I'd love it.
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 2: I, you know, I really wanna work with you.
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 2: And then I don't hear that because people, writers are not checking their junk email.
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 2: And if I do nothing else slip before I die.
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 2: I love to convince every, every writer, anyone, I mean anyone anyway, but writers, we are so in the business of kind of.
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 2: Random opportunities popping up.
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 2: You might win something, you might send something off and get a response.
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 2: Like, we wanna read more.
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 2: And if you are not checking your junk, you'll be like, Helen Garner who got the email that she'd won, was it the Wyndham Campbell, which is$250,000, I think.
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 2: And it went to her junk.
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 2: And they had to eventually, eventually they tracked her down.
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 2: They called her or something.
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 2: But check your junk people.
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 2: Uh, and it'll make my life easier.
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 2: It'll make your life easier.
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 2: The world will be a better place.
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 15: Thank you for listening to the book Deal podcast.
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 15: We're able to bring you these weekly writerly chats because of our amazing patrons.
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 15: Join the TPD family by becoming a member of our Patreon community@patreon.com slash the book deal podcast.
• 1:02:39
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• 1:02:42
  Speaker 15: And don't forget to follow us on Instagram and Facebook.