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We're Not Walking Around Wounded with the Kavanaugh Sisters · The Trauma Therapist

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Trauma Pipis Podcast. My name is g Macpherson.
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: I interview incredible people who dedicated their lives to helping
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: those who have been impacted by trauma. Here we go,
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: so five four, three, two and one our folks, welcome
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: back to the podcast. Very excited to have Joyce, June
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: and Paula Kavanaugh back with me. Welcome ladies, Welcome, glad
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: to be back. These Kavanaugh's sisters were born into a
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: large family of ten in the late fifties and early sixties.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: Raised in a disadvantage area of Dublin. From the age
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: of three or four and throughout their teenage years, the
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  Speaker 1: endured daily sexual abuse at the hands of their father.
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  Speaker 1: In nineteen eighty nine, they made the courageous decision to
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: bring charges against him. The following year, the Irish state
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  Speaker 1: successfully prosecuted their father, resulted in a conviction in the
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: seven year prison sentence of which he served five The
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: GP of Childhood Sexual Abuses is a ten hour non
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: fiction audiobook in which they share openly and honesty or
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: the knowledge, insights and understanding derived from over thirty years
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: experience and recovery work as a direct result of being
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: sexually abused as children. All right, ladies welcome. So we
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: spoke a while ago, and before we get into the audiobook, Well,
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: first of all, when did you record the audiobook?
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: And we've actually recorded the book over the last two years,
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: obviously not all the time, but over the last two years.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, And I just wanted to think about how to
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: start here.
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: It's a very different kind of audiobook of that hes
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: because along.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: With you, you want to give Okay, let me just
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: I just want to give some context for our audience
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: because this has been going You've been dealing with this
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: for a long time.
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  Speaker 3: Yea.
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: And before we get into the audiobook, I'm curious how
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: on a day to day basis, is this just front
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  Speaker 1: and center for you.
• 2:18
  Speaker 4: No, it's not for the law. There's huge gaps where
• 2:22
  Speaker 4: we don't deal with it at all. And even when
• 2:26
  Speaker 4: we were recording for the audiobook, we might meet up
• 2:30
  Speaker 4: fortnightly or weekly or monthly. Just we fit it into
• 2:34
  Speaker 4: our lives and for the longest time, it's not part
• 2:39
  Speaker 4: of our lives at all, but it is always a
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  Speaker 4: driving force. It's something we are really passionate about putting
• 2:47
  Speaker 4: out there and contributing to the eradication of childhood sexual abuse,
• 2:53
  Speaker 4: and we believe it is possible.
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  Speaker 3: We also believe we're meant to do it.
• 2:57
  Speaker 4: We believe it is our mission almost because the strength
• 3:01
  Speaker 4: we have together is not the strength you would typically
• 3:05
  Speaker 4: say in a victim of this crime. It's a very
• 3:09
  Speaker 4: complex crime with very complex impacts on a human being.
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  Speaker 4: And although we are all in our sixties now, we're
• 3:16
  Speaker 4: still uncovering and healing from parts of us that were
• 3:20
  Speaker 4: damaged true the abuse. Now we also recognize that the
• 3:26
  Speaker 4: actual act of the sexual abuse itself was probably the
• 3:30
  Speaker 4: easiest thing to heal from. The psychological harm is what's
• 3:34
  Speaker 4: taken us a lifetime to recover from, and that's just
• 3:38
  Speaker 4: part of life now for us. But we believe so
• 3:41
  Speaker 4: many people can relate to the book because it's related
• 3:45
  Speaker 4: to it's connected to the psychological harm that occurs with
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  Speaker 4: anybody who has been traumatized, especially like especially childhood sexual abuse.
• 3:55
  Speaker 4: Because we're not claiming to be experts, but we are
• 3:57
  Speaker 4: experts in our own lives.
• 4:00
  Speaker 3: So I don't know, right.
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: I we just say this and just quickly, and you
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: have two other books, Yeah, Our Father's Secret and Why
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: go back, And we'll have those listed here at the
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: show notes page at the Trauma Faviors podcast dot com.
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: But go ahead this I keep you.
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: One of the difference in this book is the fact
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: that we had a lot more people involved in the
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: recording of it, Like there's a three of us and
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: just twenty four other people, family members and friends.
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  Speaker 3: And what we really wanted.
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: To do is to make the book relatable and for
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  Speaker 2: people to be able to hear the message when they
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  Speaker 2: would shine away from the actual facts.
• 4:46
  Speaker 3: Of what we were talking about.
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  Speaker 2: And also because through the whole process of doing the
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: audio book and doing the previous books, it was really
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: all about healing ourselves. It's like John said, every time
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: we do something, we're uncovering something that like even this week,
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: I'm still uncovering stuff and how I was impacted by
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  Speaker 2: my abuse through experiences that I'm creating today. But if
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: you don't, if you're not willing to go back and
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: look at your past and understand the core of your thoughts,
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  Speaker 2: then you actually never get to move on.
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  Speaker 3: You never get to move forward. So I understand why
• 5:22
  Speaker 3: people might feel that.
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  Speaker 2: For somebody who's thinking, we are spending all this time
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: during the book and the audiobook that we're living it
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: every day. That's not really the reality of it, but
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  Speaker 2: the healing from it is a day to day thing,
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  Speaker 2: and it is something that takes a lifetime to recover from.
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  Speaker 2: And we're just blessed that we've had, like the process
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: of doing the audio books and the other books for
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: us to learn about how we were damaged and how
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  Speaker 2: we overcame that damage.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, but I think he was kind of asking how
• 5:55
  Speaker 3: we let.
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: Me ask you this the this book? You did you
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: approach it as we want to do an audiobook, We
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: want to do a recording of it rather than write
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: a book and do an audio version of it. We
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: are a different idea and it so happened. How did
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: that come about? What was the impetus for that?
• 6:19
  Speaker 4: Well, from the very first book, we wanted to turn
• 6:22
  Speaker 4: that into an audio. The first book took about twenty
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  Speaker 4: years to complete, and it was a purging of our pain.
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  Speaker 3: Really.
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  Speaker 4: It was really difficult to do and there was times
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  Speaker 4: we couldn't face it, and when we were finished it,
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  Speaker 4: we did.
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  Speaker 3: Have a desire to turn it into an audiobook.
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  Speaker 4: But looking back now we're kind of glad that it
• 6:42
  Speaker 4: didn't happen, because.
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  Speaker 3: This is the this is the book.
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  Speaker 4: This is the one where all of our growth, all
• 6:50
  Speaker 4: of our knowledge comes across, because we've got it contained
• 6:54
  Speaker 4: within the book as loads of conversational pieces which are
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  Speaker 4: not scripted, just off the cuff.
• 7:00
  Speaker 3: And the part that we.
• 7:02
  Speaker 4: Do, the pieces, the segments that we do read about
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  Speaker 4: our past. We're demonstrating what it looked like in real
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  Speaker 4: time living with our father and alongside the abuse. And
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  Speaker 4: that's why family, friends and added their vices to it
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  Speaker 4: to make it come alive.
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  Speaker 3: And it really is. It's a bit like a play.
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  Speaker 1: Let me, let me, let me stop you there? What
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: do you mean by that? You you kind of created this?
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: What does that mean? I'm sorry?
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: It's The book is like a combination of a play,
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: an audiobook, and a podcast.
• 7:41
  Speaker 3: It's like the three of the back of mind in it.
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  Speaker 2: So there are parts of the book where we read,
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  Speaker 2: we tell our story, the history of how we got
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  Speaker 2: to where we are today.
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  Speaker 3: And at the end of.
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  Speaker 2: Each segment of our abuse, we have conversations about what
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  Speaker 2: did we learn from it, from writing about it, from
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: talking about it, from dealing.
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  Speaker 3: With it, what did we was to recover and heal
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  Speaker 3: from it?
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  Speaker 4: Like I suppose an example would be In the opening story,
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  Speaker 4: we have a segment where our father is knocking on
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  Speaker 4: the door call and Paula to get up in the
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  Speaker 4: morning and joyce the's sun. We used his vice to
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  Speaker 4: enact our further and it really does come to life.
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  Speaker 4: You know, you'd have to hear it, because we can't
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  Speaker 4: really do it justice by describing it, but.
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  Speaker 3: It really was.
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  Speaker 4: At one stage of our healing, we took part in
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  Speaker 4: a form of therapy called family Sculpton, where you get
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  Speaker 4: a group of people all strangers, practically strangers, and they
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  Speaker 4: play a role in the family. They take the position
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  Speaker 4: of each of your siblings, and it's incredible how it happens,
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  Speaker 4: but you actually take on the persona of the person
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  Speaker 4: you're supposed to be portraying. And that's something like that
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  Speaker 4: happens in this process where our relaying our story with
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  Speaker 4: other voices coming into it, it actually came to life.
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  Speaker 3: It really did.
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  Speaker 4: And then on top of that, we have a conversation
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  Speaker 4: piece at the end of each chapter where we discuss
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  Speaker 4: what that incident, how that particular incident impacted us, what
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  Speaker 4: it looks like in our life, how we reacted to it,
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  Speaker 4: and given that we're three different personalities, we have all
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  Speaker 4: been impacted by the same abuse, and yet we're different.
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  Speaker 4: We had a different relationship with him, we had a
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  Speaker 4: different relationship with each other. And it's like we're all
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  Speaker 4: in our sixties now, we're all at different stages.
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  Speaker 3: I know, I keep saying, we're really not in our sixties.
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  Speaker 4: We're only pretending, like you know, we're all at different
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  Speaker 4: stages of recovery, so to speak, but we're not.
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  Speaker 3: Nobody's any further along than the other.
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  Speaker 4: We're just due to our life circumstances and our personality,
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  Speaker 4: we've been able to deal with different.
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  Speaker 3: Aspects of our recovery different times.
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  Speaker 4: And so when it comes for example, if I was
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  Speaker 4: able to confront my fear, and then by the time
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  Speaker 4: Paula was ready to confront her fear, myself and joycep
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  Speaker 4: be there to support her and be able to advise
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  Speaker 4: her as to how that impacted was. I'm just using
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  Speaker 4: that as an example. It's just to show that each
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  Speaker 4: of us you're ready when you're ready. It just takes
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  Speaker 4: as long as it takes each person. Like Paula has
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  Speaker 4: only recently uncovered true an illness, the levels of fear
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  Speaker 4: that she had been holding in her body and she's
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  Speaker 4: learning to release now at this stage. That's why it's
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  Speaker 4: so important that people realize the impact sexual abuse has
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  Speaker 4: on a child and how those impacts are lifelong.
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  Speaker 3: They're not you can't cure them quickly.
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  Speaker 2: It's like I was saying that, it's what was really
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  Speaker 2: important for us was to go back and look at
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  Speaker 2: what happened and what were we thinking at the time happened,
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: and then what did we do with those thoughts? And
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: as you know yourself being in this field, when you're
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: in a trauma situation and you try to escape, you
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: can't run away from me. You escape by disassociation. For me,
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  Speaker 2: that was my savior when I was grown up. That's
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  Speaker 2: what kept me alive. But that also turned into the
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  Speaker 2: biggest enemy I could have possibly had in order to
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: be able to live in the world. And because everything
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  Speaker 2: I did I suppressed, I manifest things physically, so I
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: would have been sick quite a lot.
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  Speaker 3: I would have been ill quite a lot.
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  Speaker 2: But over the last since we finished the book, actually
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: I have got particularly sick because I like to lay
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  Speaker 2: lessons big, so I go fucking big or go home.
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  Speaker 3: But the one thing I did learn, and I was
• 11:46
  Speaker 3: only talking about today was.
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  Speaker 2: When I was a child and I was being raped
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  Speaker 2: and it was happening at the moment it was happening,
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  Speaker 2: because I didn't want to feel like I disassociated from it,
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  Speaker 2: so I didn't want to feel the physical, the mental,
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  Speaker 2: or the meop emotional.
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  Speaker 3: But what I did with all.
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  Speaker 2: Those feelings was suppressed them, and they stayed in my body,
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: and they've run my body up until today. But over
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  Speaker 2: the last couple of weeks, I got really sick and
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: really ill, and I got into a situation where the
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  Speaker 2: pain was as bad as it would have been as
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  Speaker 2: a child, and the trauma would have been as bad
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: as it was as a child. But the difference this
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: time was as a child I was met when when
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: those things happened, I was met with anger and rape
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: and more trauma and aggression. This time, when I went
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: through that trauma and the experience of being sick and
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: all that, I was met with compassion and kindness from
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: the nurses and the doctors and and that and June
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: and Joyce of course, and the understanding. And but what
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: I gained from that was that was a life changer
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: for me. That's a that's a whole new way for me.
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: To move forward now because the belief system I had
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: that if I was vulnerable or fearful or in pain,
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: that I just had to get on with that and
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: live with it and just not acknowledge. And now I'm
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: actually free to acknowledge that and move forward.
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: Let me just pause you for a second there. Let
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: me just pause pause you for a second there. Thank
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: you so much for sharing that. I mean, look, there's
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: a lot there's no words for a lot of this.
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: But what I think what you just shared, besides being
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: so personal, I think you articulated in really an incredible way, uh,
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: the journey of healing in a sense, and what it
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: means for for your one person of course, right, and
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: as you've said before, people here heal at different times
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: and in different ways. But I really appreciate you sharing that.
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: Let me let me ask you something here this book,
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: it's it's an intense thing to do to put together
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: an audiobook and bring other people in. It might sound
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: like a good idea in theory, and I'm wondering, did
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: it sound like a good idea in theory, And then
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: when you started doing it, was it a different.
• 14:13
  Speaker 4: From the instant we began, the very forced recording.
• 14:17
  Speaker 3: We knew this is something we have to.
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: Do, and also take into account none of us had
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: ever done this before and none of us knew what
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: we were doing. And also the recordings took place where
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: people who were abroad in Canada, in England, in Spain,
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: all overs.
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: Were relatives relatives.
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: So everybody that was in the book we had to
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: then try to get it, get them to record the pieces,
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: and then try and put them and make them sound
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: like they were sitting in the same room having a conversation.
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: No guy quite, We didn't.
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: It was quite challenging, but it was fascinating at the
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: same time, and it was great to have other people
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: on board and have the family on board because there's.
• 14:56
  Speaker 3: Actually been healing for everybody who took part in this. Everybody.
• 15:01
  Speaker 5: It wasn't painful, It was actually really good. It was
• 15:05
  Speaker 5: a really good sense that this is the right thing
• 15:08
  Speaker 5: to do. We did learn, We learned loads, but not
• 15:15
  Speaker 5: I don't want you to think we're walking around wounded.
• 15:17
  Speaker 5: I know healing never stops, but at the same time,
• 15:21
  Speaker 5: it takes up less of our days now than it
• 15:25
  Speaker 5: ever did. Like we don't walk around wounded, but every
• 15:29
  Speaker 5: now and again something had happened, and it would throw
• 15:31
  Speaker 5: you back into a feeling you have as a child,
• 15:34
  Speaker 5: and you're able now you're in a good space to
• 15:36
  Speaker 5: allow it to leave.
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: Do you know what I mean? To move forward? You
• 15:41
  Speaker 3: can let it go because you're now aware of it.
• 15:43
  Speaker 5: A lot of the things we would say we're going
• 15:46
  Speaker 5: through now, we weren't completely aware and we didn't have
• 15:49
  Speaker 5: a deep, full understanding.
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: Of what was actually happening. It's understand what that word
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: integration means.
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and we didn't. So you how so you
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: brought people in, You invited them to take part in this.
• 16:07
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: Now, my guess is that some of these people did
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: they know what was going on at the time. Some
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: of them didn't.
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: One of them was my son. He wasn't even born
• 16:20
  Speaker 3: at the time.
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: So so he what was your what what did you
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: ask of them?
• 16:27
  Speaker 4: They got a script? They got like one of them
• 16:30
  Speaker 4: might have been a nurse's vice. One of them was
• 16:33
  Speaker 4: our sister. Couldn't actually we have another sister who couldn't.
• 16:38
  Speaker 4: She feels she couldn't take part in this, But when
• 16:41
  Speaker 4: we asked her to be the vice of our mother,
• 16:44
  Speaker 4: she was able to do that and through that process
• 16:49
  Speaker 4: she actually gained great insight into my mother, into the
• 16:52
  Speaker 4: whole situation. She was able to look more objectively at it,
• 16:56
  Speaker 4: and she got an awful lot out of that process
• 16:59
  Speaker 4: for herself.
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: And it was.
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: Actually okay, so so my my, my apologies. You were
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: asking you were asking people to basically play roles. Yeah, okay,
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: not necessarily to go back and ask them, you know,
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: what was going on for them during this time.
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: With some of the boys, with some of the all
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: of the brothers played themselves.
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: I see, and.
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: Particular would have would have engaged in the conversations as
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: at the end of it, because he would have been
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: one of the brothers in particular was very involved at
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: the time with bringing my father to court, so he
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: would have also got a lot of healing from it.
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: And he did contribute as himself.
• 17:45
  Speaker 4: He wasn't playing a role, and he was relaying the
• 17:48
  Speaker 4: story as it unfolded at the time.
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: And he also needed to forgive himself like a lot
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: of the boys did, thinking that we expected them to protect.
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: Us and we didn't.
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: They couldn't, but they expect they expected that a man
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: mm hmmm.
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: So the process I would imagine, I mean, as as
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: you're probably aware and there. There are certain therapeutic modalities
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: that are similar to this, like certain drama therapy. Yes,
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: right where you bring people. You have a big group
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: of people, and some of these people play different roles
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: in Wow.
• 18:28
  Speaker 4: It was really healing for all of it because every
• 18:33
  Speaker 4: time we got together, we learned something.
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: One of us had an aha moment.
• 18:38
  Speaker 4: At most of the sessions, you could nearly say, well,
• 18:40
  Speaker 4: that session was really about you, parlor or You've got
• 18:43
  Speaker 4: a lot of that.
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: So I realized something just true.
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: Can you can you give me an example?
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: Give me the example actually hated. Yeah, there's two. Actually
• 18:55
  Speaker 3: I can't. I can't remember how that came to me.
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: But I grew up.
• 18:59
  Speaker 5: Believe in I loved this man, and I always felt
• 19:03
  Speaker 5: I have to protect him.
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: They don't ask me what that's about.
• 19:07
  Speaker 5: I believe this about the man that was abusing me.
• 19:11
  Speaker 5: And I remember we were doing the session. I don't
• 19:14
  Speaker 5: even remember what the session was, but I know when
• 19:17
  Speaker 5: I laid down that my I realized how much I
• 19:22
  Speaker 5: absolutely fucking hate him, how much it was, and I
• 19:26
  Speaker 5: was petrified him, and I thought if I didn't please them,
• 19:30
  Speaker 5: my life was at risk.
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: And that's how deep it was. But like I walked
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: around for days.
• 19:36
  Speaker 5: I couldn't believe that it took me this long to
• 19:39
  Speaker 5: realize how much I hate him.
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah, because that's not that long ago. That's only No,
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: that is only a year or so. It's even And
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: it was the realization she had to listen.
• 19:50
  Speaker 4: To her own recording when she was talking about an
• 19:52
  Speaker 4: abusive situation, and she was saying like, I just wanted
• 19:56
  Speaker 4: to please them, and I loved him, And when she
• 19:59
  Speaker 4: when she heard back, she was going, hang on, it
• 20:02
  Speaker 4: wasn't that I fucking loved him at all.
• 20:04
  Speaker 3: I was absolutely terrified of him.
• 20:06
  Speaker 4: And so she convinced herself that she loved them and
• 20:10
  Speaker 4: wanted to please them.
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: But that was the brainwashing. We all went throught that.
• 20:14
  Speaker 4: We were totally conditioned because our abuse began from Childbert.
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: We were well and truly conditioned.
• 20:21
  Speaker 4: We had no thoughts of our own, like we were programmed,
• 20:26
  Speaker 4: and so we had no real reality.
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: We did not we had nothing to return to. We
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: didn't understand what was even happening to us.
• 20:34
  Speaker 4: And when we first even heard about sex, we didn't
• 20:36
  Speaker 4: know that that's what we were having.
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: We didn't know we were even when we were giving.
• 20:41
  Speaker 4: Our police statements. We would say he had sex with
• 20:44
  Speaker 4: us instead.
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: Of he raped us. We didn't understand the role we
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: played in it. We didn't understand, but we did so. Yeah.
• 20:53
  Speaker 4: Yeah, And that's where you take the responsibility and carry
• 20:56
  Speaker 4: the guilt and the shame. That's why the secrets so
• 20:58
  Speaker 4: very tightly hell by so many people. That's why people
• 21:03
  Speaker 4: don't open up about this crime till twenty years later.
• 21:07
  Speaker 4: It's and that's why we're here in twenty twenty five.
• 21:10
  Speaker 6: Trying to figure out how to deal with this bloody issue,
• 21:13
  Speaker 6: you know, and to try and eliminate the ignorance around
• 21:16
  Speaker 6: the actual crime itself, because I think even victims going
• 21:21
  Speaker 6: through court, the way they're treating, just the way they're
• 21:24
  Speaker 6: made to feel, the way they're just fucking dismissed if
• 21:26
  Speaker 6: they don't feel there's enough evidence like that has to stop.
• 21:30
  Speaker 5: But I do think comes from ignorance and the lack
• 21:33
  Speaker 5: of understanding of the impacts of abuse, and also.
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: That ability that victims have to disassociate along with then
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: the ability to DeCamp to compartmentalized stuff makes them really
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: bad witnesses in any court case.
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: But that isn't explained in our courts over here.
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: That's not explained to the judge, to the legal system,
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: to anybody who's dealing with it. So that's why victims
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: make really bad witnesses.
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: Because you can't.
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: I can honestly tell you even today, I am still uncovering.
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: I am still joining the dots of stuff that happened
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: to me, how I behaved, why I behaved, and what
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: grew out of that, and how my life was completely
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: messed up way after the abuse had stopped, decades after
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: it because of what I had done to survive. And
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: I did it, and I did it so long that
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: I became a habit. Then I became a belief, and
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: then it came something I never thought I even did,
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: so I never questioned it until something happened when we
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: were having conversations around the book. I never had a
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: reason to question stuff, but our conversations actually led to
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: those questions.
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: Coming up to the front and going okad. I never
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: thought it. I never even looked at that. And that's
• 22:49
  Speaker 3: where the healing was.
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: The what you share is obviously wisdom that's come from
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: a long thought journey of healing is what has helped you.
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: I mean, obviously you have each other, which is amazing.
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: It's huge.
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: Did each of you take part in other different types
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: of therapies or or what?
• 23:20
  Speaker 4: No, there is there is one fucking more than one
• 23:24
  Speaker 4: millions of issues, but one of it. The things that
• 23:27
  Speaker 4: we cling to is each other because we have gone
• 23:31
  Speaker 4: through this situation and we've gone through the years of
• 23:34
  Speaker 4: healing together, and we recognize the need for each other.
• 23:38
  Speaker 4: And if we spend a long time apart, we nearly
• 23:41
  Speaker 4: come to get back together again with Siah relief gone.
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: Thank God, I need, I need.
• 23:46
  Speaker 5: I think we've healed more in the process of doing
• 23:50
  Speaker 5: the books.
• 23:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know.
• 23:55
  Speaker 5: It's it's something we took gone and we were determined
• 23:58
  Speaker 5: to do. But yeah, when you're actually doing this and
• 24:02
  Speaker 5: reading back, it's amazing the freedom we get. It might
• 24:07
  Speaker 5: hurt a bit, but it's freedom. And we don't look
• 24:10
  Speaker 5: upon healing as the enemy anymore. We didn't want any
• 24:16
  Speaker 5: more pain at one stage. Now with something like that happens,
• 24:19
  Speaker 5: we welcome it and we.
• 24:21
  Speaker 3: Learn from us. But we all seed each other.
• 24:24
  Speaker 4: We also do have probably an unhealthy attachment to each
• 24:27
  Speaker 4: other because although we are very sociable, we know lots
• 24:32
  Speaker 4: of people and we love lots of people, we really
• 24:36
  Speaker 4: only feel safe and I suppose a home when we're
• 24:40
  Speaker 4: together because we completely we've gone through so much together
• 24:45
  Speaker 4: and there's a total acceptance of each other. Not that
• 24:48
  Speaker 4: we don't have problems where we fight like anybody else,
• 24:52
  Speaker 4: but there is a sense that the only case that
• 24:55
  Speaker 4: it's really safe is together.
• 24:58
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: But just to clarify, you've never seen a therapist.
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: Oh no, we went through therapy for years and some
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: of us like something.
• 25:09
  Speaker 4: Yeah, we started off and it did put us on
• 25:13
  Speaker 4: the right thing.
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: It did. It gave us a.
• 25:14
  Speaker 4: Great foundation, but we didn't go anywhere near the edges
• 25:19
  Speaker 4: of what we needed to do until we start writing,
• 25:22
  Speaker 4: and we didn't even know the depth of what we
• 25:25
  Speaker 4: had to deal with. And it was just as well
• 25:26
  Speaker 4: we didn't because we probably wouldn't have gone near it.
• 25:29
  Speaker 4: But when we got rid of the layers of like
• 25:32
  Speaker 4: the actual abuse, when we thought we had purged that,
• 25:35
  Speaker 4: we thought that was it because we thought that's the
• 25:37
  Speaker 4: problem there it is.
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: Thank god, we're done with that.
• 25:39
  Speaker 4: And then we realized, well, why is our lives still shit?
• 25:43
  Speaker 4: So we would be discussing that and then we'd look
• 25:46
  Speaker 4: into it and we'd start we'd say, right, well, no,
• 25:49
  Speaker 4: we're not done, and people would ask us for another book.
• 25:52
  Speaker 3: Is there another book?
• 25:53
  Speaker 4: And we didn't think we had another book in us,
• 25:56
  Speaker 4: but we did start to write about our the issues
• 25:59
  Speaker 4: that were still e and we realized.
• 26:01
  Speaker 3: Oh my god, we're only starting.
• 26:03
  Speaker 4: It's the psychological harm that has altered you and your
• 26:07
  Speaker 4: life and your behaviors and your relationships and your jobs.
• 26:11
  Speaker 4: Every decision you make has been altered. So now we
• 26:14
  Speaker 4: have to look at that. So we had to really
• 26:17
  Speaker 4: start from the bottom and build ourselves. And now the
• 26:21
  Speaker 4: audiobook is the accumulation of everything we've done, and it's
• 26:25
  Speaker 4: like we've arrived. We haven't had a single doubt throughout
• 26:29
  Speaker 4: the entire process that we.
• 26:32
  Speaker 3: You know that it's overkill. We need to leave it alone.
• 26:35
  Speaker 4: This is meant to be. It is meant to be,
• 26:38
  Speaker 4: and together we're strong enough to do it.
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: What is your hope for the book to.
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: Reach as many people as possible?
• 26:51
  Speaker 4: And there are some key messages in the book that
• 26:53
  Speaker 4: we really want to promote, and that is, you know,
• 26:57
  Speaker 4: given people who might be thinking of offending somewhere to
• 27:01
  Speaker 4: go to if they're consideringly even families, And we want
• 27:06
  Speaker 4: some attention brought onto the fact that secondary victims like
• 27:10
  Speaker 4: the families of people who abuse, their lives are destroyed forever.
• 27:14
  Speaker 4: There's no end date on that. I know a couple
• 27:17
  Speaker 4: of personal friends whose lives have been torn upside down
• 27:20
  Speaker 4: by a family member committing a sexual crime, and now
• 27:24
  Speaker 4: their lives may as well be over as well, and
• 27:27
  Speaker 4: there has to be support and help given to that.
• 27:29
  Speaker 4: It's like mothers as well who are in a relationship
• 27:34
  Speaker 4: with an offender.
• 27:35
  Speaker 3: And we can only speak from our own experience.
• 27:37
  Speaker 4: And I'm sure there are women who take part in
• 27:40
  Speaker 4: offending as well, but that hasn't been our experience, and
• 27:44
  Speaker 4: that's all we can speak from. So if you vilify
• 27:48
  Speaker 4: the wives and partners of abusers, then they're not likely
• 27:52
  Speaker 4: to speak either.
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: One of the things that I would feel really strongly
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: about is if you don't give a perpetrator or a
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: possible perpetrator hope, the hope that their life could be different,
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: the hope that doesn't and give them the reason. Like
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: I know how difficult it was for me to go
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: back and look at my past, and I was a victim,
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: I can't imagine how difficult it is if you're a
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: perpetrator to want to go back and look at your
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: behavior and why you did something, and hell you did it,
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: so we I feel we really need to give a
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: sense of hope to somebody.
• 28:29
  Speaker 5: And look at that enoughful of young people now offending,
• 28:33
  Speaker 5: and I honestly believe if they were reached, if they
• 28:38
  Speaker 5: could say to you listen, I'm actually thinking like this,
• 28:42
  Speaker 5: they could be helped out of that. But who do
• 28:45
  Speaker 5: you say that too? Without being annihilated? You know what
• 28:49
  Speaker 5: I mean.
• 28:49
  Speaker 3: It's just it's there. You're not looking. You have to
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: look at the whole picture.
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: And if society is telling people who offend that they
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: are the worst on the whole planet and there's.
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: No hope for them, well then we actually do have
• 29:04
  Speaker 3: no hope.
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: Because there's no one going to change or fix anything
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: by only looking at one side.
• 29:08
  Speaker 3: Of an issue.
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: We have to we have to have paer petrayers, given
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: that the support and the understand them that victims get.
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: But in a different way. Yeah, they have to.
• 29:20
  Speaker 5: Understand the impact of their behavior, and if they don't
• 29:24
  Speaker 5: understand that, they'll never ever change or even.
• 29:27
  Speaker 3: Have the desire to change.
• 29:29
  Speaker 4: And we just have to keep harping on about it
• 29:32
  Speaker 4: because it's a societal change, paradigm change that's required here
• 29:37
  Speaker 4: it's not This is not simple, and it's every aspect
• 29:40
  Speaker 4: of a person's life.
• 29:41
  Speaker 3: So it's everybody on board. We just have to keep.
• 29:45
  Speaker 4: Chipping away until you tip the scales and change happens.
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: And I think the time is right. It does seem to.
• 29:52
  Speaker 4: Be being spoken about more and more now, more and
• 29:55
  Speaker 4: more victims are coming forward and showing courage and speaking
• 29:58
  Speaker 4: out right, and we just had keep shining a light
• 30:01
  Speaker 4: on it, making it okay, normalize the conversations around anything
• 30:05
  Speaker 4: to do with sexual abuse, given people victims.
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: The vice, you know.
• 30:11
  Speaker 4: I found COVID very triggering because I felt it just
• 30:15
  Speaker 4: reminded me of being abused, and so far as I
• 30:19
  Speaker 4: felt incrementally my rights were being taken away, my voice,
• 30:24
  Speaker 4: my choices, I felt powerless, and I found the whole
• 30:28
  Speaker 4: thing scary. I really did, and I felt to a
• 30:32
  Speaker 4: degree that shut us down. We were in the middle
• 30:34
  Speaker 4: of doing podcasts, we were doing great, but it was like,
• 30:37
  Speaker 4: I just found the whole thing very frightening. And Jicce
• 30:40
  Speaker 4: recently had an episode where I remember you got you drove
• 30:43
  Speaker 4: the wrong way and you were stuck up the country road.
• 30:46
  Speaker 5: I got lost of the mountains. I mean, I'm over
• 30:49
  Speaker 5: dramatizing this. I was lost in a car. I'm sure
• 30:53
  Speaker 5: it was about twenty minutes away from my house, but
• 30:55
  Speaker 5: I'd never seen it before. It was dark, I couldn't
• 30:58
  Speaker 5: get the lights in the car were and maybe saw
• 31:01
  Speaker 5: the condition.
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: I got into.
• 31:03
  Speaker 5: I was trembling from head to toe. I couldn't even
• 31:06
  Speaker 5: put my foot on the pedal. There was nothing I
• 31:09
  Speaker 5: could do. There's no houses, just complete darkness, and I
• 31:14
  Speaker 5: shook in a way that was I couldn't.
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: Even hold the wheel of the steereding wheel.
• 31:19
  Speaker 5: Eventually I got out of there and realized how close
• 31:23
  Speaker 5: I actually was to home.
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: But the fear, the level of fear I felt.
• 31:27
  Speaker 5: I just connected immediately with my child, with me as
• 31:33
  Speaker 5: a child, and I said, that's the level of fear
• 31:37
  Speaker 5: I would have felt, and I would have had nowhere
• 31:39
  Speaker 5: to go with that. So that's actually trapped inside me.
• 31:43
  Speaker 5: So little moments like that we've all had. That came
• 31:47
  Speaker 5: out of nowhere.
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: But I know.
• 31:50
  Speaker 5: After it, I felt so much better that I've given
• 31:54
  Speaker 5: my inner child a voice.
• 31:56
  Speaker 4: And the significant of that is the how nascence that was.
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: That's why that's significant.
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: Do you know what I mean?
• 32:05
  Speaker 4: Right?
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: Right? Exactly? I mean What's what's very uh interesting, but
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: also really inspiring is to hear each of you reflect
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: on the level of awareness you've accumulated about how this
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: is impacting your lives now, and how that awareness is
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: even though it's the experiences like your joys being terrified
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: up there, getting lost, even though that's horrible, you're able
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: to kind of step back and move through it and
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: like you learned from it. Wow, ladies, I mean seriously, no,
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: I mean, every time I talk to you, it's just
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: I'm blown away by you. Probably hear this all the time,
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: but I'm going to say I'm going to say I'm
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: going to say it anyway. I mean, Jesus, it's just
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: so inspiring, really, you know, and this this new audio
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: book you what you've done is I think it's it's amazing,
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: and believe in it. I feel like, yeah, I mean,
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: I feel like you're you're you're giving people the wealth
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: of your experience, your hard won experience, and I love
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: the way you're just you're open and honest and raw,
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: and you know you're not professing to be experts, of course,
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: I mean, you're just sharing your own experience, and I
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: think we all learn from that. So thank you.
• 33:52
  Speaker 4: And I think we never really celebrate any of our
• 33:56
  Speaker 4: achievements like book one and Book two, and you haven't.
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: Really celebrated this one either.
• 34:02
  Speaker 4: But there's a deep knowing within each of us, a
• 34:05
  Speaker 4: surety that this is absolutely going to help people. There's
• 34:09
  Speaker 4: no doubt whatsoever. And I don't care how long it takes.
• 34:12
  Speaker 4: I don't care if we're even dead when it happens.
• 34:14
  Speaker 4: We've put it out there and it is absolutely going
• 34:17
  Speaker 4: to help people because it really brings a home what
• 34:20
  Speaker 4: it looks like, how the emotional impact on the psychological
• 34:25
  Speaker 4: harm of the sexual abuse plays out in your life,
• 34:28
  Speaker 4: and how the huge levels of self hatred. But are
• 34:32
  Speaker 4: such obstacles in your life in every direction, and.
• 34:36
  Speaker 3: Most of the time you're unaware of them. Yeah, and
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: it's the tragedy of it.
• 34:41
  Speaker 4: And when you actually move past you can you can
• 34:44
  Speaker 4: see how it sounds. It sounds like it's not the
• 34:49
  Speaker 4: right way to say, but it sounds like all of
• 34:51
  Speaker 4: that suffering if you've given the right information at the
• 34:54
  Speaker 4: right time, all of that, not all of it. Maybe
• 34:58
  Speaker 4: you can't, you can't take away from the facts of
• 35:01
  Speaker 4: what might have happened to you. But a huge portion
• 35:04
  Speaker 4: of that self hatred could be removed from victims. There's
• 35:08
  Speaker 4: no need for them to go to the levels of
• 35:10
  Speaker 4: hell that victims do go to internally, and the negative
• 35:14
  Speaker 4: self talk that never turns off like that is not necessary.
• 35:19
  Speaker 3: But nobody tells you.
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: You know, right right, Well, as we wind down here,
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: what's the best way for people to learn more about you,
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: to get in touch with you, and to check out
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: the audiobook?
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: Well, everything that you need to know about was is
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: on our website, the Cabinet Systems dot com.
• 35:40
  Speaker 3: Can't be simpler than that.
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: And anything we've ever done and anything we've ever said,
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: any podcasts is all up on our web page.
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: And the book you can download from Spotify.
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: Okay, we'll have that link.
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: The link actually on their website to Spotify. So everything
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: that you need to know is on the website. And
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: it's called The Grip Child Sexual Abuse. But the audio
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: is very gripping. I don't think you'll be able to
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: stop once you start listening to I know.
• 36:13
  Speaker 3: But I do.
• 36:13
  Speaker 5: Guy, I would suggest you just actually listen to the
• 36:16
  Speaker 5: first section yourself, which is only about abuse how the
• 36:20
  Speaker 5: abuse came out. But if you listen to that section,
• 36:23
  Speaker 5: you'll see exactly what we're talking about, including other people's
• 36:27
  Speaker 5: voices and how it makes it.
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: It's different, is different, but absolutely water listen.
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: So once again, the kavanaughsisters dot Com will have that
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: link up here at the show notes page at the
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: Trauma Theaprist podcast dot com. As always, you ladies are
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: welcome back here anytime. And I just want to close
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: out by saying, you know, sometimes sometimes we don't know
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: the impact we have on other people, but you, the
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: three of you, are so friggin inspiring. I mean, no,
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: I'm not, I'm not. I'm saying this is truthful. You are.
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna get off of this interview and I'm just
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: gonna go Jesus freaking Christ. You're amazing. You really are
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: just the strength you know, and you might not think
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: it's true, but the impact you have it's I want
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: to thank you so much for being here. We'll be
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: in touch, all right, take care, Bye bye bye